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Ted Kennedy's Poignant Plea; Massachusetts May Provide Roadmap for National Health Care Reform; Pan Am Flight 103 Bomber Released; Hurricane Bill Downgraded
Aired August 20, 2009 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: All right, thank you, Kiran and John.
Replacing Ted Kennedy -- the cancer-stricken senator appeals for a speedy succession.
Crashing down destruction in the heartland after heavy rains and winds sweep right through.
Plus, he brought down an airliner. Now terminally ill, the Lockerbie bomber is freed on compassionate grounds. What does that mean?
Good morning, everyone, I'm Don lemon. Heidi is off. It is Thursday, August 20th, and you're in the CNN NEWSROOM.
A cancer-stricken Ted Kennedy issues a poignant plea in failing health from a malignant brain tumor. The legendary senator is asking the state lawmakers to be -- the laws to be changed so that he can quickly be replaced in Congress. In a letter to Massachusetts' leaders, Kennedy also said that serving in the Senate, quote, "has been and still is the greatest honor of my public life."
The letter is raising new questions about Ted Kennedy's health today and CNN's senior congressional correspondent Dana Bash joins us now live from Washington with the very latest on that.
Hi, Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Don.
Well, this is a letter that Senator Kennedy wrote and delivered yesterday to leaders in Massachusetts. The governor and the leaders of the state legislature. And essentially, what he is saying is that he wants the law in Massachusetts to be changed.
The law currently says that there will be a special election if, in fact, there is a vacancy in the Senate for Massachusetts. And -- but it also says that that wouldn't have to happen for five months. So it allows for a vacancy, an open seat for five months.
And here let me read you what he says, at least, the longer part of what you just read in this letter. He says, "Serving the people of Massachusetts in the United States Senate has been and still is the greatest honor of my public life. As I look ahead, I am convinced that enabling the governor to fill a Senate vacancy through an interim appointment followed by a special election would serve the people of our commonwealth and country should that vacancy occur."
So He's clearly supporting the idea of the current law, but what he is very worried about, clearly, is the fact that there could be an open seat there. The backdrop of this. Why is this important? And why is Senator Kennedy doing this now? Obviously we know that his health is failing and he is in very tough shape, according to sources close to Senator Kennedy.
He hasn't been in public view, he has not been in Washington, didn't go to his own sister's funeral last week. At the same time, what is going on in the United States Senate is, you know, the fight of -- the legislative fight of his life, health care. And we have been told, Don, by Democratic leaders as they're trying to do the math and figure out how to go forward with health care legislation that they do have 60 Democrats right now, but they just can't count on Senator Kennedy's seat, and they can't count on Robert Byrd, another elderly senator from the state of West Virginia.
So what Senator Kennedy is clearly trying to do here is try to put in motion the possibility that if he does not make it and if his vote is needed, and there is an extra Democratic needed, that there would be a replacement from Massachusetts that could actually be yet another vote for the Democrats on health care reform.
LEMON: Dana Bash, thank you very much for that, Dana.
President Obama stumps for health care online and on the air. This afternoon he faces some skeptics. He is scheduled to give an interview at the White House to a conservative talk radio host. That's Michael Smerconish. Then he turns to a friendlier audience on the Internet.
The president will take part in an online forum with liberal activists, his political organization. Also today, bipartisan negotiations continue among senators, the so-called Gang of Six, on recess with the rest of Congress, hold a teleconference to continue their discussions.
Now here's one question that looms large in the health care debate. If the White House abandons a government-run insurance plan, what would health care reform look like? The answer may be as close as Massachusetts.
CNN's Jim Acosta joins us now from Boston -- Jim.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Don. That's right. And you know, the White House took a lot of heat from Democrats earlier in the week when it seemed to back away from that public option in its plans for health care reform.
And you just asked the question, what does reform look like without a public option? Well, according to some health care experts, you get Romney-care.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MITT ROMNEY (R), FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR: Good, thank you. Good to see you.
ACOSTA (voice-over): If Washington wants to reform health care with bipartisan support, consider what former Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney did as governor in Democratic Massachusetts.
ROMNEY: You don't have to have a public option. You don't have to have government get in the insurance business to make it work.
ACOSTA: Three years after enacting its own version of reform, Massachusetts now has near universal coverage. Taxpayer watchdogs say it's affordable.
MICHAEL WIDMER, MASSACHUSETTS TAXPAYER FOUNDATION: And there is this widespread assumption that has now created this fact that it's breaking the bank in Massachusetts.
ACOSTA (on camera): And is it?
WIDMER: It's not breaking the bank at all. It's not even costing much at all relative to what we were spending four years ago.
ACOSTA (voice-over): And health care experts say it's popular.
ROBERT BLENDON, HARVARD UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Seven in 10 people in the state support the program and no more than 1 in 10 would repeal it.
ACOSTA: Unlike Democratic proposals that would give Americans the choice of joining a government-run health care plan, Massachusetts has no public option. Instead, people in the state are mandated to buy private insurance. The poor get subsidies.
Analysts say Romney care is basically Obama care minus the public option.
(On camera): The president drops the public option, will you come out and support him?
ROMNEY: Well, depends on what's in the rest of the bill.
ACOSTA: Romney says Democrats only have themselves to blame for those rowdy town hall meetings.
ROMNEY: I think any time you're dealing with people's health care and their ability to choose their doctor, their ability to decide what kind of health care plan they want, you're going to find people are going to respond very emotionally.
ACOSTA: As for that other former governor's now debunked claim that reform would lead to death panels...
(On camera): What did you think when you heard Governor Palin talking about death panels? ROMNEY: You know I had that into the bill.
ACOSTA: You think it's OK for the governor of Alaska to be talking about death panels?
ROMNEY: I'm not...
ACOSTA: About pulling the plug on grandma...
ROMNEY: I'm not going to tell other people what they can and cannot talk about.
ACOSTA (voice-over): But Romney does warn the president bipartisanship is the only road to health care reform.
ROMNEY: I think the right process for the president to pursue on health care, on an issue that is so emotional and so important to all Americans is to go through the lengthy process of working on a bipartisan basis. He promised that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ACOSTA: Now the Massachusetts model does have its problems. Experts say it does not control rising health care costs. Something Romney himself says has to be tackled on a national level. But Don, if you look at the numbers, they are striking some 44,000 people who did not have health insurance before this reform was enacted. Now have health insurance at a cost of $88 million a year.
That's a drop in the bucket according to taxpayer watchdogs when you're talking about the state's budget which is some $30 billion.
LEMON: All right. Thank you very much, Jim Acosta, we appreciate it.
About 15 minutes from now, our Dr. Sanjay Gupta tackles your concerns about health care reform. His focus, can doctors opt out of a government-run plan, and if so, where will that leave patients? That discussion just a few minutes away right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.
It is the most controversial issue in the country. "AC 360" and Dr. Sanjay Gupta take an in-depth look at health care reform. Learn what is fact and what is fiction, and what Congress needs to do to reach a consensus. "Extreme Challenges, Health Care Watch," the special report tomorrow night 10:00 p.m. Eastern only here on CNN.
Meantime new outrage and anguish today from a 1988 terrorist attack. Just minutes ago, a Scottish court ordered the release of the only person convicted in the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 in the skies over Lockerbie. The families of many of the 270 victims are furious.
And CNN's Diana Magnay is following the story for us. The very latest, she joins us now from Greenock, Scotland.
DIANA MAGNAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Don. Well, yes, Kenny MacAskill, a Scottish justice minister, did just make that announcement that Abdel Basset al-Megrahi, the only man convicted of the Lockerbie bombings would be released on compassionate grounds. He is suffering from prostate terminal cancer.
And Kenny MacAskill said he met the criteria for that judicial decision, which is that you only have three months to live. He was very clear. He says Mr. al-Megrahi will be going home to die.
A very controversial decision. He said he'd talked to many of the families, many of the interested parties, the Libyan government representatives, the U.S., and he understood that he would never be able to square the circle. He would never be able to satisfy all parties with the decisions that he was going to make.
Now we were actually in the town of Lockerbie only a few days ago talking to people there about how they felt about Megrahi's release. And they said they preferred not to dwell on the past.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MAGNAY (voice-over): Only one man was ever convicted for the bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie 20 years ago. Abdul Basset Ali al-Megrahi was found guilty on 270 counts of murder. His co-defendant, Al Amin Khalifa Fhimah, acquitted by a Scottish court at Camp Zeist in the Netherlands.
Many doubt Lockerbie could ever have been a conspiracy of one. But over the years the conspiracy theories have become ever more elaborate, mentioning everything from the involvement of Palestinian terror groups, Syrian and Iranian sponsorship, and CIA drug smugglers.
Tam Dalyell, MP for Lockerbie at the time of the bombing, believes al-Megrahi and Libya were just scapegoats for more sinister international foul play.
TAM DALYELL, FORMER PARLIAMENT MEMBER OF LOCKERBIE: Libya only came into the frame two years after the event. And it was at that time that the Americans decided that they had to invade Iraq in relation to Kuwait, didn't want the difficulties of antagonizing Syria and Iran. And therefore, blamed the peripheral smaller Libyans.
MAGNAY: David Maddox, political editor of the "Scotsman," has heard all the theories out there.
DAVID MADDOX, POLITICAL EDITOR, "THE SCOTSMAN": Like most conspiracy theories, it's -- there's always elements of truth in them all. There are certainly some unanswered questions.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MAGNAY: Now, Don, in 2007, the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Board re-examined the evidence in the Lockerbie verdict and said there could have been a miscarriage of justice, which was the grounds for granting al-Megrahi a second appeal. He has now dropped that appeal.
Mr. MacAskill earlier, the justice minister, saying he stood by the original conviction. He believed that Megrahi was guilty but that that should not affect this compassionate release which was based upon the values and beliefs of Scottish society, not an eye for an eye, a tooth for tooth, but mercy that should be shown whatever the atrocity, Don.
LEMON: Diana Magnay, thank you very much for that.
Polls closed just minutes ago in Afghanistan in the nation's second ever presidential election. Officials extended voting by one hour to allow more people to vote. But CNN's Atia Abawi reported from outside one Kabul poll that workers had already closed the door and were counting votes.
The election went on despite threats from the Taliban that they would target voters. Some incidents of violence were reported, but there's no word on any civilian casualties. Observers in Kabul province said voting was fairly smooth, but in other areas of the country, especially the south, many Afghans may have been too afraid to leave their homes to vote.
We're going live to Afghanistan later this hour. CNN's Ivan Watson will join us from the (INAUDIBLE) province with a look at how the voting went there.
Fierce storms pound the Midwest, a lot of damage. This is central Illinois that you're looking at. And CNN's Rob Marciano keeping an eye on where storms will be popping up today.
ROB MARCIANO, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Well, they're still rolling through the Midwest. That same line that did all the damage in Illinois and parts of Minnesota is heading towards Ohio. We'll have details on where those storms are rolling.
Plus Hurricane Bill, still a major storm is heading towards the general vicinity of the U.S. Will it make landfall here? We'll discuss those possibilities when the CNN NEWSROOM comes right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Well, for the second week in a row, a surprising increase in the number of people seeking unemployment benefits. Just moments ago, the Labor Department said the number of first-time jobless claims rose to 576,000 last week, up 15,000 over the previous week. Wall Street economists expected a drop.
The Obama administration may announce tomorrow how it plans to wind down the Cash for Clunkers program and when the incentives will no longer be available. Many car dealers say they've had troubles getting reimbursements from the government and they worry the $3 million set aside for the program will run out. Transportation secretary Ray LaHood assured dealers they will be paid.
And we want to let you know about this. Tonight on CNN, more of our series. It's called "Money in Main Street," how to cope through this tough economy -- through this tough economic times. Catch it tonight 8:00 p.m. Eastern only here on CNN. Meantime, our Rob Marciano is tracking all of our weather news. Rob, what is Bill up to now?
MARCIANO: Well, it's still a category three storm -- well, actually that dropped down from last night, Don. But they're still in very favorable waters to get back to category four status, 125-mile- an-hour winds. Look at what has changed today.
So there you go, the winds are 125, and then you see a bit of deterioration around that eye. So it's not quite as well defined as it used to be, but the area out here, still very juicy warm waters and winds are favorable for development.
So the official forecast is for that to happen. Its movement, though, has changed from a west-northwesterly direction to more of a northwesterly direction. So it's starting to get into some weakness into what has been driving it to the south. So that turn to the north, now is starting to take shape.
Here's the official forecast from the National Hurricane Centers, bringing it to category four strength. Still forecast to go between the Carolinas and Bermuda, so that will be good. It has shifted a little bit farther to the west. The cone of uncertainty to include extreme northeastern New England, so those folks certainly going to be affected if not by a grazing storm, potentially still a direct hit.
Everybody on the East Coast is going to experience some serious waves and rip currents. Dangerous rip currents if you're heading out to the beaches this afternoon and through the rest of this weekend.
(WEATHER REPORT)
MARCIANO: That's the latest on the severe weather and Hurricane, Bill Don, we'll toss it back to you.
LEMON: All right. Thank you, Rob.
MARCIANO: You got it.
LEMON: It could be a make or break in the month for health care reform. And coming up, we'll tackle some of your questions about what's being considered.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right, well, amid all the shouting and the spin, some straight talk about health care reform. Our "Insider," chief medical correspondent and practicing neurosurgeon, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, is taking your questions.
I got one for you, Sanjay, from a viewer from Illinois. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CALLER: This is Anna from Illinois and I was wondering with the new health care reform if doctors will be able to opt out of taking these patients that have this insurance done by the government because reimbursement rates may be too low for them? And how that's going to affect the patients with less physicians to choose from?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: This is such an interesting question, it comes up a lot. You know, Don, when we talk about this idea that, OK, you have insurance. OK, so what do you do with it? If you can't find a doctor, or you do find a doctor but the doctor has no appointments, can't see you, how good is that insurance really for you?
LEMON: Nothing.
GUPTA: And I think that's sort of at the heart of Anna's question. A couple of points. One is that we don't have enough primary care doctors in this country. We're about 16,000 short. Problem number one. Problem number two, and I think this is maybe more of what Anna is asking about, is that doctors aren't required or mandated in any way to take any particular type of insurance.
And we've seen this before with regard to doctors, for example, not taking Medicare in the past. They'd simply not accept it. So if they do accept it, you continue seeing your own doctor, but if they don't, then you may have to find another doctor.
What's interesting, we ask the White House specifically how do you address those concerns? Insurance card is great, but what about actually getting access to care? They say they want to create incentives for more primary care doctors.
So perhaps increasing the reimbursements, for example, for primary care doctors, trying to speed up the reimbursements, as well. So when they, you know, submit their bill, they get reimbursements faster.
And I think more importantly just sort of changing the incentive so, you know, investing in Don Lemon's wellness as opposed to taking care of Don's heart if he should have a heart problem later on, that becomes more of a priority and that's sort of an investment in primary care, as well.
How that plays out exactly, hard to say, but need more primary care doctors, I think absolutely.
LEMON: Getting the check-up, diagnosing it early, preventative medicine.
GUPTA: You keep people from getting sick in the first place.
LEMON: Right.
GUPTA: Everybody wants that.
LEMON: Yes. So you were talking about -- when I asked among students, medical students, choosing primary care, there's a decline. Did the administration address that?
GUPTA: Well, yes. First of all, you're right, there is a decline. We have about 26,000 medical students graduating, entering the medical workforce per year, only about 6,500 going into primary care. Most are going into specialties. That ratio should be reversed. We should have more people going to primary care, fewer into specialties.
Part of it is pay. They don't make as much money. They're in debt with medical school loans for a long time. Part of it is just simply paperwork.
Don, you may have 3,000 patients. They all have insurance forms, they all have other forms. That paperwork is a lot of -- it's a huge burden for them and that's what this Health Information Technology Bill is hoping to address, trying to cut down on some of that.
LEMON: You and I were both looking over this wire and study that said life expectancy is longer. I mean is that good? It shows just how serious it is, this whole health care reform thing. People are living longer therefore they're going to need medical care longer.
GUPTA: Yes. I mean I think a lot of people want to live longer as long as you're of sound mind and sound body.
LEMON: Right.
GUPTA: But it does cost more as well. You're right.
LEMON: All right.
GUPTA: Good to see you.
LEMON: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, Good to see you. We'll be here for a long time.
(CROSSTALK)
GUPTA: The outsider.
LEMON: The -- thank you, Doctor. Always good to see you.
GUPTA: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: And by the way, we're going to be talking about the expectancy, life expectancy on our blog. So you'll probably want to weigh in on that.
How long do you want to live? How long would you like to live? How long would you like to live, Doctor?
GUPTA: Seventy-eight.
LEMON: Seventy-eight? Really?
GUPTA: Just right down the middle. Average. LEMON: All right. At 77, I think you'll be rethinking that.
(LAUGHTER)
Tell us how long you'd like to live, go to CNN.com/heidi or CNN.com/don. You can also find me on Facebook and Twitter as well. Let us know how long would you like to live?
In the next half hour of the CNN NEWSROOM, Josh Levs clears up another health care concern. Will a reform plan mandate prices doctors can charge? Find out what the truth squad has learned.
And election during war time. Afghans go to the polls despite threats from the Taliban. We've got a live report on the voting and back here in the U.S.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's fair to say that things got very, very ugly, very, very quickly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Man, look at his face. A mayor says he did what any other good citizen would've done even though he got hurt and beat up doing it.
All right. Live pictures now of police convoy -- police convoy arriving in Scotland, the Lockerbie bomber is going to be freed, of course. He has a medical condition and they're letting him out, I guess, on quality of life issues, issues similar to that. But again the convoy has arrived. He's going to be freed, we're talking about the Pan Am flight that blew up over Lockerbie, Scotland.
We're going to continue to follow this developing story and see where this goes. And there will possibly be live pictures of him leaving this facility. There's a big question here. Should he have been let out? Some of the victims' families don't agree. We'll follow it for you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. We want to get you now to Scotland, where you're seeing the release of a man that is believed to be responsible for the Lockerbie bombing of Pan Am Flight 103. It was blown up from the skies over a Scottish town of Lockerbie. That was late December of 1988.
And the man you're looking at there is Abdel Basset Mohamed al- Megrahi. And he is going to be released today. The White House, Robert Gibbs released a statement not long ago saying the United States deeply regrets the decision by the Scottish executives to release Megrahi and Gibbs also said, in that statement, again, "On this day, we extend our deepest sympathies to the families who live every day with the loss of their loved ones." And again, this picture, this is an old picture, probably from the late '70s, early '80s, I should say in 1988 from the late '80s, I should say, early '90s. But again, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton made a particularly emotional case earlier this week noting that she used to represent families of victims of the disaster as a former senator from New York. And she also expressed her deep disappointment in the release of this man.
So let's go now to Scotland and our reporter who is on the ground there following this. And again, he's about to be released at any moment, and you'll see it live here on CNN. Diana Magnay joins us now live from Greenock, Scotland. Diana, what's going on?
MAGNAY: Hi, Don.
Well, in a moment, you're looking at pictures of Greenock prison, where we're expecting any second Al Megrahi, the only man ever convicted of the Lockerbie bombings, to come out.
As you can see, there are lots of local residents of Greenock surrounding the prison, and we've just seen a large cavalcade of police. So we really are expecting him to be released at any second.
We know that he's found out that his request to be granted compassionate release would be granted only about an hour ago. At the same time, as the justice minister here in Scotland Kenny Macatskill announced his decision to the world.
And he said that he was granting on compassionate grounds because it met the requisite criteria, which is simply that Al Megrahi only had three months or less to live. He said that Al Megrahi he was only going home to die -- Don?
LEMON: Some are saying, yes, he's only going home to die because he has, you know, a cancer and a disease there.
But I was watching one of the -- listening to talk radio this morning, and there was a woman who was on who said her husband has the very same disease and is still alive three years after being diagnosed.
So some of the families are not happy about this, that he is getting out of jail, believing that he could actually live a long time, even at his home and they don't like it -- Diana?
MAGNAY: Absolutely. It's an incredibly controversial decision. You have families here and in the U.S. who, some of them on one side is saying this man should never be released. He did not show compassion to my loved ones who died in December 1988. Why should we show him compassion?
On the other hand you have those who doubt his guilty, who say that not all of the facts in this case add up and that they're not sure that even if he was partially guilty that he could've ever acted alone. Lockerbie, the bombing itself was too big to have simply been a conspiracy of one. But the Scottish Justice Minister Kenny MacAskill did say "I am never going to be able to square the circle here. I have consulted every interested party, all family members that I possibly can and, unfortunately, I will never be able to satisfy all parties."
He said that he was acting in a pure through judicial function here, that this request for compassionate release could be granted because it satisfied judicial criteria, and that Scotland as a society was based upon values and beliefs that mean that they should show compassion and mercy irrespective of the crime committed -- Don?
LEMON: Listen, you are -- it seems to be -- I'm not exactly sure where you are, Diana, and to this location, how far you are, but it seems to be pretty busy behind you.
We're looking at a helicopter shot of a police van there arriving very closely, I believe that is a gate of a prison. Yes. Very close to the prison walls there is, it looks like a police escort and a van. What are you able to see around you? It looks like a lot of media and folks are gathered.
MAGNAY: Absolutely. We'll pan around again to see what we can see here. You can see some of those policemen, the same police force who were actually involved that night 20 years ago when the Lockerbie bombing happened, one of the smallest police forces in Britain. So you can imagine the re-enforcements that were required back then.
You have a lot of interested Greenock residents. They have been holding up banners saying things like "Good riddance, al-Megrahi. It's time you went home."
But interestingly, a lot of them have said we believe that he was innocent. So again, even here at Greenock, that sentiment reflected.
What we expect to happen shortly is he will come out from here in a cavalcade from here and go to Glasgow Airport where he will be transferred straight to Tripoli, straight into the arms of his family.
But he is effectively, as of now, a free man having served only eight years of a 27-year life sentence, Don.
LEMON: Yes, this all happened, boy it was four years before Christmas in 1988, and most Americans who were of age remember this, and remember the horrific pictures that came out of Lockerbie, Scotland.
And some say that this is what really led to the demise of Pan Am Airways, that they couldn't recover after this crash. But that video, and the picture from back then, Diana, I'm sure you remember that town in Lockerbie, Scotland, the explosion and the trees.
There you see some of the footage there live on our screen. And then there was entries, you could see, sadly, clothing, parts of the plane hanging. And then there's the nose of the plane there, and a lot of this stuff landing in people's yard. It was really a horrific sight when you bring it back to people so that they can remember this. And you can see why there's outrage concerning this, Diana.
MAGNAY: We were in Lockerbie only a couple of days ago. And it really was shocking to talk to those eye witnesses who describe the kind of blazing inferno that they had seen with their own eyes.
And the sheer scale of this, the sheer area that had to be searched -- 845 square miles to look for personal possessions, body parts. There were bodies scattered within a six-mile radius of the crash site. It really was a horrific incident, the U.K.'s worst ever terrorist atrocity.
And interestingly, you go to Lockerbie now, and there are some very calm memorial gardens, nothing that would suggest the crater that the body of that 747 jet airliner made in what was effectively a superb and crescent houses literally having been obliterated, people's remains never found such was the chaos and the carnage of that night.
Now there are many people who come every day to visit those memorial gardens and to pay their respects to the victims, to the 270 victims killed.
But Lockerbie itself is a peaceful place, and the people we spoke to said irrespective to what happens to al-Megrahi now, this will never help those people who died on our Scottish fields. Better to show him compassion than to show him revenge - Don.
LEMON: But there are -- doors are opening, and we can see the motorcade going inside. You can see the police car in front and the van in back. So the door is opening and they are going inside to pick this man up.
Again, he's expected to live only for about three more months. And according to the Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill, he said that he ordered the release because he believed that the man needed to die at home and that the laws of this country dictated that.
Our justice system demands that judgment be imposed by compassion available. MacAskill said, "Our beliefs dictate that justice be served, that mercy be shown."
So again, I would imagine that he is in this van. It appears that the van is moving away from the prison. And so Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi is in that van, and according to our sources and according to Diana Magnay on the ground, he will be returning to his family in Tripoli.
Diana, as we watch this motorcade leave the prison here, talk to us about -- have you heard anything from his family? Has his family spoken out at all? Or have they been pretty quiet in all of this and respectful -- in of some of the victims, I should say?
MAGNAY: Don, I couldn't really hear because there is a lot of chaos. We're actually seeing Al Megrahi's lawyer leave right now. I don't know if you can pan around. He has refused to speak to any of the press for a while now, and he looks like he's not going to now.
But as you heard, when the cavalcade left, the residents of Greenock kicking up a bit of a row. As I said, he will now make his way to Glasgow airport and from there back to Tripoli as a free man.
Don, I think we're slightly stuck here in traffic. Back to you.
LEMON: I can imagine that it's loud. And Diana, if you can just stick around and maybe it'll get a little quieter and you can talk to us here, because this is an unbelievable scene.
This has been playing out since 1988. And as I said earlier, many people who are of age remember this horrific, really horrific bombing over Lockerbie, Scotland, and the pictures hat are coming in.
Pan Am, an iconic airline. The big Pan Am building in New York City, remember that? This was before that bombing, and, again, some say that this led to the demise of that airline. It was only -- it was the beginning of the end.
On the left side of your screen there, you're looking at those horrific pictures that we talked about landing right there, or blowing up right over our residential neighborhood, and the debris falling on that neighborhood. It was just amazing to see there.
And on the right side of your screen, you see the motorcade leaving the prison, going to Glasgow Airport. And it is believed that Megrahi will go to Tripoli to be with his family, where doctors say he only has three months to live, it is believed.
And as we know, you can't put an exact number on days and times, it's an estimate. But about three months to live.
He was let out on compassionate means. And according to the justice secretary there, Kenny MacAskill, that is what their law tells them to do, that he has to face justice, but their law also includes compassion.
Our Diana Magnay is on the ground there. It's a very loud, chaotic scene where she is. I hope Diana can still hear me so she can weigh in on this.
Diana, the question that I was asking you, if you can hear me, is that his family, I'm wondering if his family has spoken out in all of this, or have they remained quiet...
MAGNAY: ... Lockerbie piece.
LEMON: Have remained quiet, Diana, are you there? Diana obviously can't hear me. Again, we're going to watch this motorcade as it goes.
And there was -- we cannot -- we're not in control of these pictures, and so I'm not exactly sure of the moment he came out, because CNN was not controlling the pictures. So we can probably wind it back to figure out the exact moment that he came out of that prison and then got into the van. but we do see, again, the motorcade there.
Diana Magnay, are you with me?
MAGNAY: Yes, I can hear you, Don. As you were saying released on...
LEMON: What I was saying to you earlier is, his family, have they spoken out, or have they remained quiet out of respect for the victims' families?
MAGNAY: His family have they made any comments? The line is incredibly bad, Don, I'm sorry about that.
We haven't heard any comments from his family. In fact, we haven't heard any comments from Al Megrahi himself. All we know is MacAskill saw him earlier this month and confirmed he was, indeed, extremely ill as his doctors have said, only weeks to live, now back with his family, or on his way to his family, five children and a wife, in Tripoli.
But I went to the village of Lockerbie a couple of days ago to talk to them about how they felt about his possible release. Let's take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MAGNAY: This was the crater left by the 747 airliner that was Pan Am flight 103, brought down over the small Scottish town of Lockerbie in December 1988 by a terrorist bomb in the cargo hold of the plane.
Twenty years on in the town's quiet memorial garden, it's hard to imagine the carnage. But George Stobs (ph), who was one of the first policemen at the scene, remembers it vividly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: House were just slowly burning and more houses were caught on fire, the windows were popping, the doors were burning. Everything was just -- it was like hell.
I remember also seeing the gate in a distance. I could see it was actually dripping like melted butter, dripping away.
MAGNAY: All 259 people on board the flight, most of them Americans on their way home for Christmas, were killed as were 11 residents of the town, the debris from the wreckage scattered over a vast area.
MAGNEE (on camera): We're three miles from the actual crash site at Lockerbie here, but this is where the nose cone landed. And between here and the tip of the horizon, they found 120 bodies.
MAGNAY: Search teams combed 845 square miles for clues as to what brought the plane down, a trail which led Scotland's criminal justice system to a Libyan businessman and suspected intelligence officer Abdul Al Megrahi.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The houses that were here were destroyed.
MAGNAY: John Gale was never entirely convinced Megrahi was the man who destroyed his neighbors' homes, but he says the politics behind the bombing was always only a distant reality for the people of this town.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The politics of the Middle East were and still are immensely complicated. The ordinary citizen has no means of judging these things.
MAGNAY: Policeman George Stobs (ph) said most Lockerbie residents never really cared who was behind it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're not interested in the politics of the thing. And they just want to go on with their lives. And I think Lockerbie has to that stage now.
MAGNAY: Two hundred seventy-one people from 21 nations met their deaths in these beautiful hills and in the backyards of Lockerbie, and 20 years later, homes are rebuilt. The events of that terrible night are buried here, but not forgotten.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: That was our Diana Magnay reporting.
You're looking at live pictures now of one of the men believed to be responsible for the Pan Am flight 103 bombing over Lockerbie, Scotland.
Joining us now by telephone is Susan Cohen, who lost her 20-year- old child, Theodora. She was one of 35 Syracuse University students on Pan Am Flight 103.
I believe you said his release, you believe him and his release "vile"? Is that a quote from you?
SUSAN COHEN, LOST DAUGHTER IN PAN AM 103 (via telephone): That's an understatement. This is absolutely appalling, appalling. You want to feel sorry for anyone, please feel sorry for me, feel sorry for my poor daughter, her body falling a mile through the air and landing in a sheet metal.
This is 270 people dead. This is a convicted mass murderer and terrorist. I have no doubt about his guilt. I don't know whether he's going to live or not live. We've been told he's been dying, I've heard that for a long time.
But he will be a hero in Libya. They couldn't even wait a day to release him.
Let me tell you what this is about. This is about the appeasement of Muammar Gaddafi for oil. Big oil interests are in this, lots of lobbyists.
LEMON: Why do you say that? Explain that. COHEN: I will explain it very easily. British petroleum makes a deal with Muammar Gaddafi and then Tony Blair came out with another alternative way of getting Megrahi out, which was a prisoner release exchange when actually there are no British prisoners in Libya.
The fact is that from the time George Bush went out on television and didn't even mention Lockerbie and said we've had our differences with the Libyan leader, the handwriting was on the wall.
We have our congressmen visiting there. There are business deals all of the time, Shell Oil. It's absolutely about appeasing Muammar, Muammar Gaddafi. You don't think al-Megrahi did this solely on his own. I believe that Muammar Gaddafi ordered him whatever way they did that. Obviously, nothing happens in Libya without Muammar Gaddafi being on top of it.
LEMON: Ms. Cohen, I have to interrupt you. I hate to interrupt you, but there are some people who don't really see that connection. They're saying his release, whatever happened in the trial and during that, whatever came out, is separate from why he's being released.
COHEN: Well, I think this is...
LEMON: This is part of their government and part of their system.
COHEN: Well, I think it's appalling, and the U.S. could've used a lot more pressure on them.
You are talking about a mass murder. I am telling you this is the best argument for capital punishment you'll ever find. You mean you commit mass murder, an act of terror, you kill all of those innocent young people, a family of three little girls, and you are released for compassion?
LEMON: Did you make your appeal to the government -- the Scottish government, or to the U.S. government?
COHEN: Of course I did. I've also tried to get Obama's attention. He shook hands with Gaddafi. He has not shaken my hand. We tried to get condolences on the 21st from him. We've tried to have meetings.
LEMON: That is really a bone of contention, the handshaking with Muammar Gaddafi.
COHEN: I think that was appalling. The man is the worst one of -- has one of the worst human rights records in the world, committed acts of terror. It bothers me terribly.
And at least he could've issued some sort of statement acknowledging the Pan Am 103 situation and acknowledging his human rights abuses.
Have we reached the point where we are now ready to tolerate and accept Muammar Gaddafi, to appease someone like that? Are we so devastatingly weak now? Have we lost all of our moral fiber that you can say that Megrahi can be released from prison for a compassionate release?
Where was his compassion for my daughter? Where was his compassion for all of those people?
LEMON: Ms. Cohen, I have to ask you this. There are some family members of the victims who don't believe that Megrahi is guilty, and they welcome this release. What do you...
COHEN: They are the British, a few British families. There's not a single American family I know of who feels that way. I know of none.
And it has nothing to do with innocence or guilt. It has to do with upholding a legal system. You have trials, people are found guilty. He had an appeal. Understand, he was in the middle of an appeal, which he dropped. So there are avenues for that kind of thing.
I think he was guilty, and I think it's appalling. But whether someone thinks he's innocent, that makes it OK? What does it have to do with this? Nothing at all. We have no laws, our laws don't count, our legal systems worth nothing, we may as well not bother with trials. That is amazing.
The man should have remained in prison, and I do not believe any of those ideas about his lack of -- of his not being guilty.
As I told you, there was a mass propaganda campaign launched by the Libyans, and you often found things in the British press and the European press you would never have found here, really remarkable gullible things.
You had lobbyists, you had Gaddafi buying people, buying people who were there, and in Britain, and you have had some pretty awful stuff.
LEMON: During the time of all of this, there was some wrangling about exactly where Mr. Megrahi would where he would serve his prison time. And some folks had thought about this process that maybe if he was in Scotland because of this compassion, because of how their laws are made, there was some concern that this sort of thing could happen.
So, at the time, some folks wanted him to be housed somewhere else, maybe because it was an international crime, maybe in the United States, maybe in Britain, so that there would not be this compassionate release or that he would be housed under different laws or eventually stay in jail or in prison.
COHEN: I wanted him to be tried here. I wanted him to be imprisoned here. I worked for it, but we couldn't do it.
We were promised by, at a family meeting where there were representatives the justice department in Britain, in Scotland, and in the United States, that this could never happen. Many families believed that. I didn't. I don't have that kind of faith in governments.
This is absolutely appalling. They didn't have to release him. They could have refused to release him. This is not your typical crime.
And I want you to know who is very happy in the world today besides Muammar Gaddafi.
LEMON: Who is that?
COHEN: And that's Osama bin Laden, because he can say to himself, if that can happen and I'm ever in a position where I have oil, then they will deal with me. And that is what Gaddafi knows.
And I am telling you, this sends a dreadful message to terrorists everywhere. You do not do this. You do not release a mass murderer as if he is some guy who had a minor crime. Where does that kind of thing end? And no one knows how long he is going to live.
LEMON: Ms. Cohen, hang on for one second. I just want to say we're at the airport in Glasgow. Those are live pictures that you're looking at, the plane that will take him, Megrahi, back to Tripoli.
I'm going to end this line of questioning in just a little bit and ask you more about personally during -- around the time of Christmas.
But since we're on this subject, it happened a couple days before Christmas. I imagine for your family this was just a terrible time. The justice secretary had declined at the time to allow Megrahi to be transferred to Libya even though a prisoner transfer agreement exists between the United Kingdom and Libya.
And now, during this time, the U.S. attorney general, Eric Holder, was the deputy attorney general to Janet Reno at the time of the pretrial negotiations. He was adamant that assurances had been given to the U.S. government and to any person convicted would serve his sentence in Scotland.
So, at the time, again, as I said, there was some wrangling and some controversy, because you wanted him and other people wanted him to be held in Britain, instead of Scotland because...
COHEN: No. I wanted him held -- I wanted him in the United States.
LEMON: Here, yes. Other people wanted it in Britain, and some wanted it in Scotland. But for the American victims, the families, they wanted him to be held in the United States.
Hey, Ms. Cohen, will you hang on just a second, because we're waiting for him to get to the airport. If you could hold on, I would like you being here explain to our viewers exactly what you're feeling and guiding us through this subject.
We'll take a quick break and be right back. Again, the man believed to be responsible for Pan Am Flight 103, the bombing over Lockerbie, Scotland, released from prison, on his way home.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. You're watching breaking news here on CNN. Remember the Lockerbie bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland?
Well, one of the men responsible for that is being released from a Scottish prison and is in a van escorted by Scottish police on his way to the Glasgow airport where he will fly to Tripoli and see his family and his three children, his wife.
There is some anguish and outrage about this because many people, the victims' families, they don't believe he should have been released. He has prostate cancer. They are releasing him, they are saying on compassionate grounds.
The Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill says their law not only takes into consideration guilt or innocence and punishment, it also takes into consideration compassion. That's one of the factors. Mercy, he said, should be shown here.
Susan Cohen, whose 20-year-old daughter, Theodora, was one of 35 Syracuse University students on Pan Am flight 103 is joining us to talk about this.
By the way, about a 30 minute ride from the airport. We have been following this live for you for about 15 minutes. In all of this time, we have not spoken, I imagine that, I know that you're outraged and you said that. Let's talk about your daughter.
COHEN: Thea was a talented young woman. She wanted to be a singer and an actress. She had a beautiful soprano voice. She was full of life. She had everything to live for. And I miss her. I grieve every moment of my life. I grieve for her.
Ask any parent who has lost a child. And that was a plane full of young kids, a family with three little girls, young students. The average age on the plane was 27.
It sends ripples of horror and pain and grief, which continues and will continue as long as I am alive and the other family members are alive.
It is absolutely sickening when you say compassion. I feel ill, I feel physically ill. That is the most misplaced compassion I can imagine. We couldn't weep for poor old Adolf Hitler there, and maybe Mussolini, we should feel sorry for these people, I guess.
I say that the greatest generation is, indeed, gone. I don't know what's happened to us in the West. I don't know how we have become so cowardly, amazingly lacking in backbone and courage and strength as this kind of thing indicates.
And they didn't have to release him. This is not a typical case, and he's not just one of the people. Megrahi was the only person found guilty for this and who is not being let out.
So now there's nobody. There is not only not a shred of justice, there is no sign Lockerbie ever happened. And we Americans don't like to remember our tragedies. We have a short memory span.
And this is all so cruel and so gruesome. My daughter would have been 41 on September 10th. I will have to live through her birthday with this added horror and pain. I will have to watch Gaddafi enter New York City in triumph at the end of September to speak to the U.N.
I remember once when they spontaneously, the police, gave us a police escort from the Pan Am building to the U.N. And now I will have to watch Gaddafi probably getting a police escort. I mean, he will speak.
It is just amazing. You see, really, this is -- where is the justice? Where is the justice system? I mean, if you can let this man out on this so-called compassion -- and I told you, I don't think that's the story. I think the story is the power of the oil interests and the way they have so much power with governments, and that's what Gaddafi wants, and appeasing him these days is what you do if you want to make a lot of money.
But I mean there is no sanity to this. It's nothing but bad, nothing but horrible, and nothing but bringing just a gruesome amount of pain to most of the families.
LEMON: Ms. Cohen, will you stick around with us just for a little bit? We want to update our viewers on this story, and we want you to stick around. We're listening to Susan Cohen, whose daughter, 20 years old, and died aboard Pan Am Flight 103 when it was blown up over Lockerbie, Scotland, back in 1988.
