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Pan Am 103 Bomber Arrives in Tripoli; U.S. Tightens Offshore Financial Loopholes; Emotional Aftermath for a Mother of Pan Am 103 Victim; Interview with John Madden

Aired August 20, 2009 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Coming at you right now, the fat cats ripping you and me off, hiding their money overseas to avoid paying taxes. A list of 4,400 of them who are denying our children billions of dollars. Who are they?

He admitted it to me on the air. The more we look into this, the more this appears that it was really planned, that it was almost...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, it was more planned than you think.

SANCHEZ: So, he plotted to set up and have an armed man at an event near the president. The president!

And guess what? We're going to reveal his ties to a dangerous militia movement.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We will resist people imposing their will on us through the strength of the majority with a vote.

SANCHEZ: Uh, Secret Service, are you listening? New details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Also, why is the terrorist who bombed the plane out of the sky, killing 270 people, being given a -- quote -- "compassionate release"? It is amazing to watch. Are you outraged?

What you say on your national conversation for Thursday, August 20, 2009.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: And hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez.

The next generation of news is what we do. It's a conversation. It's not a speech. And, as usual, it's your turn to get involved.

Before I do anything else, I want to let you know that this -- this character, this terrorist, Abdel Basset Ali al-Megrahi, has, in fact, as we understand it, as being reported by the Associated Press, arrived now in Tripoli, Libya.

And from what we understand, he is being welcomed as a hero with something like 1,000 people cheering and applauding his return back. This is old video from -- well, when I say old, I should say of a couple hours ago. This is the other side of that trip. This is him this morning as he was in Scotland getting ready to leave for Tripoli.

As you can see, he turns here. He shakes hands with a couple of the men who had escorted him there. And then, wearing that Nike hat, oddly enough, he makes his way up the stairs, and has now been in the air and has arrived in Tripoli to a hero's welcome, to a hero's welcome, a man who had every single thing to do with the death of 270 people, literally just blown out of the sky over Lockerbie, Scotland.

I know it's unsettling. It's unsettling for many people. It is what it is, at least according to Scottish justice. We are going to be giving you an update on this story. We hope to be able to get video out of Tripoli. When we do, we will turn it for you right away.

Another story that I want you to follow right now, this is almost as much outrage in this story. Who is really cheating the average American taxpayer these days? This is what we hear when we watch a lot of these town hall meetings, for example.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are going to bankrupt this country, you and the Democrats. And you're making a mistake. You are going to indebt my generation and we are going to pay more taxes because of you, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: This is what we don't often hear. We are being cheated out of billions of tax dollars. Did you know that? By whom? By wealthy fat cats who are hiding their money in tax-free offshore overseas accounts. Here's the news on this, a deal brokered between the IRS and the Swiss government involving banking monster UBS, UBS agreeing to release the names of 4,500 U.S. depositors who may have used UBS to evade paying their share of taxes.

Again, we're talking about billions of dollars in taxes that has gone uncollected, by our estimate, as much as $6 billion.

Two guests on this. Jordan Belfort, he's a tax cheat himself who describes himself in his book as the "wolf of Wall Street." Great book. Also joining now here in Atlanta is "Wall Street Journal" reporter Carrick Mollenkamp.

Carrick, let me begin with you. These accounts were apparently in Liechtenstein, the Cayman Islands, Hong Kong and the British Islands. That's where the accounts were that these guys were using to hide their money from American taxpayers. How does this work?

CARRICK MOLLENKAMP, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": Rick, there was an interesting indictment handed up by a grand jury in California today that kind of laid out how one of these structures was set up.

SANCHEZ: Take us through it.

(CROSSTALK) SANCHEZ: In layman's terms, how would someone who wants to hide money, has a lot of it, and has a big company, how would they go about going to, let's say, the Cayman Islands to hide money?

MOLLENKAMP: Well, why don't we go to Liechtenstein, in 30 days will set up a structure for you?

SANCHEZ: All right.

MOLLENKAMP: So, July 3, 2003, you're in Liechtenstein, the foundation. You're going to overlay that, 15 days later create an enterprise in Hong Kong, nothing behind it. You have got that done.

About 12 days later, you open up the Hong Kong entity's account at a UBS branch in Zurich. A month later, you're flowing $1 million from a U.S. business into a U.S. domestic account and then out of the U.S. and into Zurich at the fake Hong Kong account.

SANCHEZ: You're actually looking at the note. Is this the indictment that you're looking at right here?

MOLLENKAMP: That's correct.

SANCHEZ: Oh, my goodness. Look at this. Robert, can you pick this up? You don't mind if I...

(CROSSTALK)

MOLLENKAMP: No, no, please.

SANCHEZ: I don't want to be a little grabby on you here, but I figure it's a public document.

That's the indictment that was handed down. It has two of the names that we're talking about. The part that makes most people angry is it's Americans hiding money from Americans. I mean, that's money that could be used for my kids' school, for my grandma's health care, for a lot of things in this country. That's -- take me through that.

MOLLENKAMP: Yes. The thinking, I think, was pitched -- and there are some defense lawyers that will try to pitch this idea -- is that the Swiss were proposing this as legitimate transactions. You could argue the Americans that used it probably had some inkling, but they were so complex that some may not have grasped the -- how illegitimate they were.

SANCHEZ: But they knew it wasn't. I mean, the guy who -- a person who does this...

(CROSSTALK)

MOLLENKAMP: Well, we have got four guilty pleas so far just since April of people that have basically owned up to not paying income taxes.

SANCHEZ: Let me talk to somebody who's done this and knows how the game's played because he played it himself, spent some time in a federal penitentiary as a result of it. That's Jordan Belfort.

Jordan, why does a person like you decide that they're going to use an offshore account and how do you do it?

JORDAN BELFORT, AUTHOR, "THE WOLF OF WALL STREET": Well, there are a bunch of reasons, depending on what you're trying to accomplish.

One is simply to evade taxes. Another is to do business in a way where people don't know it's actually you, because you form what's called bearer corporations, so you don't appear on the transaction. And what happens is, the Swiss government is actually set up for this. They have trustees that create all the paperwork, that create a paper trail that allows the transaction to seem legitimate.

So, you wouldn't just put $1 million in an account and have it wired to Switzerland. You would have an invoice from some phony company from either Hong Kong or somewhere else in the world, so it would appear that you're buying some good or service and you're overpaying for it, so, the money ends up flowing overseas. So, it looks like it's legitimate, but it's not, and ends up being your money in a foreign account.

So, rather than having the profit here in the U.S., where you have to pay taxes, you end up having the money tax-free overseas. And what it's really about is greed. It's not -- these are all wealthy people. I know. I was there. And when you have that much money, you have a sense of entitlement. And every dollar you pay in taxes, you're like, wow, this is crazy. I'm paying more than anybody else, so on and so forth.

SANCHEZ: How do you look at yourself in the mirror after doing something like this? Because you're essentially stealing from my kids.

BELFORT: How -- me, myself, personally?

SANCHEZ: Yes, you, you, you. Yes, sure, you did it. I know you did time in a federal penitentiary. You have paid for your crime, but I just want to get in the head of you big guys, you fat cats out there who made all these millions of dollars and knew you were trying to get away with something and cheated the rest of us.

BELFORT: Well, I think at the time -- it's a good question and I don't think you get there in one step. You take a little tiny step towards doing this with a very small amount of money, and you say, well, I'm paying so much more taxes than anybody else anyway, this is really no big deal.

Then once you do a little bit, you become desensitized. You do a little bit more. Before you know it, let's say two or three years later, you're doing it with massive sums of money and it feels perfectly OK. It's like putting your toe in a bathtub. It's piping hot at first. Five minutes later, the water feels just fine. That's how it happens.

SANCHEZ: You know, I'm wondering, Marrick (sic), how many people -- Carrick -- pardon me -- how many people who are big CEOs of health companies may be hiding their money overseas in some of these accounts, while we see -- quote -- "average Americans" fighting for them and defend them at these town hall meetings?

MOLLENKAMP: Yes, I think we will find out as these criminal prosecutions are brought in the 4,450 cases. I think we're going to see some pretty famous names.

SANCHEZ: Four thousand five hundred people, that's a lot of people.

MOLLENKAMP: It is.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: That's 4,500 Americans that we know of, but there actually could be more.

BELFORT: Yes.

MOLLENKAMP: Well, I think ultimately because you have got people coming forward through the IRS' disclosure program, easily thousands more.

SNOW: This is something Americans should know about. It's something Americans should obviously check on, and it's something we are going to be committed to following. And it's a good thing we had you to be able to ask about this.

And, Jordan, my best to you, too. Thanks for coming as well. And we're going to be talking to you a little bit more later about this, right?

BELFORT: You got it.

SANCHEZ: Yes. All right. I will look forward to it.

Meanwhile, any moment now, we are going to be seeing the man who actually was responsible for blowing 270 people out of the sky. That's him. He's a mastermind. He's a terrorist. He is certainly by all aspects of what we know an evil man. He's also a free man, because he's been released now, because the justice system in Scotland has decided that he's too close to death to be allowed to remain in prison.

So, we're going to be all over this. As soon as that picture comes in, we are going to share it with you.

Also, guess what else we know about the man who admitted to me that he planned this gun-toting moment at a presidential event? Can you say dangerous militia movement? We will. You will know more about this when we come back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: About this time yesterday, Chad Myers was on this newscast with me. He was reporting breaking news. A tornado touchdown in Minneapolis. You remember when he checked in with us? Well, check this one out.

This is in Minnesota. Just about the time that he was talking to us, there was another weather guy named Tom Clark (ph). He caught the whole thing on his cell phone. Look at the twister moving right to the left of the center of your screen as it moves toward some tall buildings there. You see it right there? Take it full, Rog, so we can see the whole thing. Get my face off the screen. I think it will probably make it easier to see it. There you go.

Technically, the meteorologist who shot this wasn't working. He's from Pennsylvania, was just visiting his daughter in the Twin Cities. But have you ever met a weather guy? I mean, this kind of thing for them, it's fun. Probably made his vacation, if not his entire year. Wow.

All right, here's something I want you to see as well. That's the Lockerbie bomber who killed 270 people. He's being released today from prison. We followed it here on CNN. Those are the pictures that you may have seen earlier in the day. Well, guess what? He's free. He's just arrived in Libya. And I'm being told that he's being cheered by thousands, cheered by thousands. I'm going to speak to a woman who lost her daughter on that Pan Am flight. I'm going to ask her about this compassionate release, as it's being called.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Boy, I will tell you, the one -- there's a lot of outrage in this newscast today, but the one story that really takes the cake is the one about the Lockerbie bomber, killed 270 people and now he is out of prison because they say that he's close to dying maybe in the next two months, maybe more. Nobody's really sure. Maybe God.

Look at the comments that we're getting so far. We will start with MySpace over here. "He should die in prison. Now he gets to have a fate much better than those that he murdered."

Boy, it's hard to argue with that, isn't it?

And then the people who have seen that picture of him getting on the plane are reacting as such: "Hello, Rick. That picture is pathetic."

And then there's one more. It says: "Gee, I suppose they expect the terrorist's flight home to arrive safely. Unreal."

That is the truth when you consider what he did, killing 270 people who just blew up in mid-flight. It's tough to have that image in your head and then consider what's going on now. In fact, take a look at this video. You're likely to get as angry as the mother I'm about to talk to is. See that man getting out of the van, the man in the white warmup with a Nike swoosh on his hat? That man is this man as well. Change the shot there, Rog. See that? That's Abdel Basset Ali al-Megrahi, former Libyan intelligence agent, one of the world's most infamous terrorists. He is the one who carried out the 1988 bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. He did this.

As I have said over and over again, and it bears repeating, and I will say it again, 270 people were killed, many of them blown out of the sky, 189 of them Americans. It helped launch the age of terror against civilians that gave us the travesty of 9/11.

So, why in the world is Abdel Basset Ali al-Megrahi receiving mercy today in the form of being returned to his homeland? It's something a lot of people are really wondering about. A short time ago, President Obama said it is a mistake.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're now in contact with the Libyan government and want to make sure that if, in fact, this transfer has taken place, that he is not welcomed back in some way, but instead should be under house arrest.

We have also, obviously, been in contact with the families of the Pan Am victims and indicated to them that we don't think this was appropriate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: By the way, our old buddy Steve Bruss (ph), who handles our political -- our politics from Washington, says that the State Department has put out a statement as well after what the president said, essentially saying that this could come between U.S.-Libyan relations if they don't respond to the United States' questions about where this man is being kept and how he's being kept.

Meanwhile, we learned moments ago from the Associated Press that, when he arrived in Libya, he was greeted as a hero, with thousands of people cheering him. cheering a man who killed 270 people.

And I also just was told by Chris Hall, my line producer, that we should be getting some sound momentarily here from his attorney, apparently saying something to the effect that he apologizes to the families. When we get that, we will turn it around.

In the meantime, let's talk to a family member, shall we? Susan Cohen is joining us now from New Jersey. Her daughter Theo died in the terrorist bombing of Pan Am 103.

I know this happened a long time ago, but, still, my condolences to you.

SUSAN COHEN, MOTHER OF PAN AM FLIGHT 103 BOMBING VICTIM: Thank you. It hurts all the time.

SANCHEZ: Susan, when you -- did you see these pictures today on CNN when we showed him leaving prison and going to the airport and getting on that plane?

COHEN: It makes me sick. It is absolutely disgusting.

And I don't want any apologies. I think this is the most craven, cowardly thing I have ever seen. It makes the pain worse. It makes everything worse. It's just horrible. But it's the logical end result of what governments have been doing in appeasing Moammar Gadhafi. Don't kid yourself. This is not about compassionate release. This is about oil interests and lobbyists pressuring governments to get what they want.

They have been very effective with the English. Gadhafi has run a huge propaganda campaign there for years that Megrahi is innocent. This is absolutely horrible, but this is what happens when you appease a tyrant and a maniac like Gadhafi.

SANCHEZ: You know, the former administration made a big deal out of trying to come to terms with Gadhafi, essentially saying he's no longer the man that he used to be, thanks to their negotiating efforts.

It sounds, from what you just said, that you don't buy any of that.

COHEN: I don't buy any of it. And, at the time, Bush came out on CNN and said, you know, we have had our differences with the Libyan leader.

He didn't even mention Pan Am 103. They were tight as you could be. And even now, even now, I guarantee you, I have tried to get our government to do a lot more on this issue. It's been out there a long time. Nobody has done anything. It is absolutely sickening.

I mean, McCain made a statement about it, but he had just come back from Libya. And I couldn't reach him during the campaign. I couldn't get condolences out of Obama on December 21. I haven't been called to be in touch with the families.

I -- I -- he shook Gadhafi's hand. Why isn't he shaking the hands of the Pan Am 103 families? This is the result of this terrible collapse on Libya. And Gadhafi is a treacherous, evil man. And that is what you get when you deal with him.

And this guy isn't going to be in jail. I don't even know if he's going to die. I don't care. He should die in prison. But I have been hearing this for months and years that he's got this cancer. And I was called in December that he was going to kick off then, and he didn't.

I don't care. This man doesn't deserve our pity. My daughter deserves everybody's pity, all those innocent kids who died on that flight. It's horrible.

SANCHEZ: We're looking at a picture of your daughter right now. Her name was Theo? COHEN: Yes. And she was a talented young actress. She had a beautiful soprano voice. She was studying abroad in London with the Syracuse studies program.

And then they came back on this plane, and there was a family with three little girls on it. They're all dead. And it's been horrible for me for 20 years. And now her birthday's on September 10. It's going to be even worse. It's going to be even harder to see this.

And look at the speed they got rid of Megrahi. They didn't even wait a day. It's absolutely appalling. And if you think he's going to serve any time there, what, they're going to take a picture of him with leg irons? I said he would be greeted as a hero, and he is.

SANCHEZ: What do you make of the fact that they are saying 1,000 people are at the airport and he's being cheered?

COHEN: I always said, they release him, he's a hero.

And do you think a lot of the world will think he was released for compassion? They will think he didn't do. There is no justice. Our little tiny crumb of justice, which never went where it should have gone, to Gadhafi -- there should have been a military response. You don't blow up an American plane and get away with it. I guess you do, but you shouldn't.

And now that's gone. And it sort of makes Lockerbie not have happened. Now, remember, Gadhafi is coming to the U.N. at the end of September. He's going to roll in there and he's going to give his speech and he comes in triumph.

I remember when we got a police escort spontaneously when we were on our way from a memorial we held at the Pan Am building to the U.N. And now what am I going to see, a police escort to protect Gadhafi?

SANCHEZ: Well, let me let you hear what the lawyer has to say. He released this statement just moments ago. Bear with us.

(CROSSTALK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY KELLY, LAWYER FOR ABDEL BASSET ALI AL-MEGRAHI: To those victims' relatives who can bear to hear me -- to hear me say this, they continue to have my sincere sympathy for their unimaginable loss that they have suffered.

To those who bear me ill will, the only thing I can say is that I do not return to you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Well, he wants...

COHEN: It's a little hard to understand... (CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Well, he wants you to know that he has your sympathy -- I mean, you have his sympathy. Pardon me.

(CROSSTALK)

COHEN: Yes. Really? Really? Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot. I don't want his sympathy. That is ridiculous. He's just glad he got out.

What do -- care about people's sympathy? My goodness, the fact is, the man was a convicted mass murderer and a terrorist, and he had an appeal that he dropped. And he is let out? Give me a break.

This has nothing to do with anything but oil profits. I'm telling you, that's where this is, and the collapse of the Bush administration, the collapse of Tony Blair to give Gadhafi everything he wanted. We have heard nothing, but, I mean, Bush went to the U.N. and praised Gadhafi. So, this -- this -- I knew this was ultimately going to happen.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: If someone is entitled to a strong opinion, I would think you are. You have lost your child. She died on a plane with 270 other people. She was a complete innocent, and, on this day, the man who killed her was released from prison.

COHEN: Right.

SANCHEZ: Susan Cohen, let's stay in touch. We will continue to touch base with you as we follow this story.

We expect to get pictures in any moment now from Tripoli of him arriving there. If the picture is as dramatic as it's being described to us, it may be tough even for the rest of us to watch, no doubt for you to watch as well, 1,000 people greeting him at the airport, welcoming him home as a hero -- tough.

Susan, thanks for being with us.

The man who told me that he planned on having this guy carry a gun near where the president was speaking, guess who he's linked to, we found out?

And then later, an officer, a man in a skirt, a Breathalyzer test and a fire truck, you put them all together and what do you get? Well, you get a Spanish lesson.

(LAUGHTER)

SANCHEZ: We will be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SANCHEZ: Boy, I will tell you, some of you are cutting to the chase and some of you are being, well -- well, angry about what you have just been watching. First, the story we told you about, the people who are hiding their money overseas, and then an interview with a mother who described to us what it's like to have your daughter die on the day that a man who killed her and 269 other people walks from prison.

Some of the opinions that we're getting are very strong, but I will share some of them with you.

Chrissy says: "Mercy??" -- two question marks -- "The only mercy this" -- you see the word yourself, one of the few times it probably should be used -- "deserves is a gun to his head and the trigger pulled."

That's kind of mild compared to some of the other opinions that we have been getting so far. We will keep collecting them.

John Madden is coming up in just a little bit. We're also going to be expecting a picture from Tripoli and a lot more news coming your way.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez in the world headquarters of CNN.

Remember all the civilians carrying guns near President Obama in Phoenix Monday? We covered the story. In fact, remember in particular the man with the AR-15? As you know, we were the first to do this story and I was the first to interview the man who admitted to me on the air that he set this whole thing up.

He and this man both went armed along with others to the scene near a presidential event. And moments after that interview, I brought on a former secret service agent who reacted to what he had just seen and heard during my interview, referring to them as "gun nuts."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSEPH PETRO, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: Police officers have to go out and start dealing with these foolish gun nuts with exposed weapons in public crowds. They're being taken away from an activity that is much more important, and that is to keep our president safe and to keep the public safe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: All right, look, nobody is saying that these guys don't have a right to express their Second Amendment freedoms, but you just heard a former secret service agent calling their actions dangerous. Now, let's go in just a little bit tighter. Let's drill down, as we like to say. I want you to carefully listen to the man who was carrying that rifle. I want you to hear what he says about the federal government. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm just going to take it from you. I want Cash for Clunkers, I want this and that, this and that, and I'll just go and take it.

The burden of all this thievery gets too thick and you can't make it anymore? That's what's necessary. And we will forcefully resist people imposing their will on us through the strength of the majority with the vote.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: "We will forcefully resist people imposing their will on us through the strength of the majority with a vote." Somehow, the words "forcefully resist" coming from a man with an AR-15 outside a presidential event is a little unsettling.

I don't know, maybe it's just me, so let's move on to the next point now -- who are these guys? What do we know about Earnest Hancock, for example? That's the fellow right there who organized this whole thing and pretended to be a real reporter doing a real interview, with a handgun and a holster.

We now know that he has direct links to an armed militia called Viper, 11 of whose members went to federal prison for conspiring to blow up federal government buildings. Yep, that guy, Hancock, the one pretending to be a reporter.

Hancock defended those people. There's some of them now. The people you see here. He calls them his friends. A federal indictment alleged an operation this militia was planning would have dwarfed the bombing of the federal building at Oklahoma City.

Joining me now, Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center. Nobody, nobody has more knowledge and a better beat on these types of people than the Southern Poverty Law Center. Good afternoon, Mark.

MARK POTOK, DIRECTOR, INTELLIGENCE PROJECT, SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER: Thank you, Rick.

SANCHEZ: So, we've got a guy with ties to a militia movement walking around near a presidential event with a handgun in his holster while setting up another guy with an AR-15. You think maybe Americans should start to get a little concerned about this?

POTOK: Well, if they're not, they should be. I mean, to listen to that fella Chris, who was put up by this Earnest Hancock to do what he did, as you suggested, was really quite amazing.

You know, not only does he say he is going to resist majority rule, which, after all, is the way we run our country as a general matter here, at the point of the gun, but he says, you know, to him, taxation is theft.

Well, you know, I guess it's news to him, but that's how the civilized world has run for the last few thousand years. And you know, I just don't know how we could proceed as a society otherwise.

It is really quite a remarkable through line from the militias and the thinking of the militias to some of the people we're seeing coming out in these town halls.

SANCHEZ: Let's talk about this militia, because I understand Hancock wasn't specifically a member of the Viper militia, but he certainly befriended them and defended them, did he not? Tell us who the Viper militia are.

POTOK: Well, the Viper militia, which, they really call themselves the Viper Team, are a group of at least 12 people who actually went out and surveilled and took videos of a series of federal buildings in Phoenix which prosecutors said they intended to blow up.

And certainly, the evidence did seem to suggest that that was precisely the plot. When they went in and found this group's so- called armor, their sort of weapons guy, they found about 500 pounds of antho, ammonium nitrate and fuel oil mixture.

That, of course, is the very mixture that was used by Timothy McVeigh to blow up the Murrah building at the cost of 168 people back in 1985.

SANCHEZ: This Earnest Hancock, he is libertarian who is antigovernment, anti-tax, pro-gun. He says Waco was a fake and that the government lied about 9/11.

When you hear those things, is there a profile in your head? And what can you share with us about that?

POTOK: Well, I mean, he's right out of the militia world. That is a core belief of militiamen that Waco was an example of the government crushing politically heterodox people.

You know, the theory is that those people, the Davidians, you know, liked guns a lot and had a strange religion. Therefore, the government was willing to murder them.

I should say, Rick, that I covered from beginning to end the first day to the last as a reporter the Waco siege, and that is simply false. It's a lie. It's a conspiracy theory that is based on absolutely nothing, the idea that federal agents, you know, murdered people in that building is simply ludicrous.

SANCHEZ: One final question. How is it -- or, forget the how -- is it something that you've seen a pattern of where some of these people are somehow marrying or melding their way into these tea party events, and is that disconcerting for you? POTOK: I think it's very disconcerting. This is the first case where we have absolutely rock-solid evidence that, in fact, people associated with the militia movement directly and its ideas are some of the same people who are disrupting these town meetings.

But it is worth remembering that last week one of the first fellows to show up in New Hampshire with a gun strapped to his hip saying that the tree of liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of tyrants, and also saying that illegal aliens should be sent home with a bullet in their brain, you know, those words, the paraphrase of Thomas Jefferson, those are precisely the words that were on the back of the t-shirt worn by Timothy McVeigh when he blew up the federal building in Oklahoma City.

In other words, that idea of watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants is a core militia slogan and idea.

So, I think it's very worrying. I think we're seeing a kind of coalescing of these groups or at least the ideas behind them.

POTOK: I think "disconcerting" fits the bill. Thank you so much, Mark Potok, Southern Poverty Law Center, as usual, for being with us and taking us through this.

A suspected drunk driver gives a police officer a lot more than he bargained for. You've got to see this video. It is a foto for sure.

And then, John Madden once stole a championship from my beloved Miami Dolphins with a fake snake. I'm going to call him on it when he joins me here in just little bit. He's coming in just a couple of minutes, and I'm kind of nervous about it, actually.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Couple of quick comments coming in from you as we set up the next block. In fact, I think we can somehow marry them together, to use another term.

Let's go to the very top of this. Hawkeye watching us once again. Man, she loves this show, that Hawkeye. "I agree with you, it is dangerous. Weren't we warned about these kind of crazy people?"

Well, yes, we were.

And the next one, talking about those guys who set that whole thing up out there, the man that was interviewed plus the other fellow that had the AR-15 -- "Viper militia? Wow. What gave that up? Only thing that guy was missing on him from getting shot was a man dress."

Interesting you would use the term "man dress." When we come back, a man dress. Yep. We're going to show you what one looks like, as a police officer suddenly found out. What a story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: My coworkers love when I say "las fotos del dia," so it's time for the "Fotos Del dia" segment.

Let me take you outside the Copa, Copa Cabana, the hottest spot north of Havana. A reporter in Cuba is trying to do a serious interview with a resident. He's asking about why the Cuban economy isn't working.

Now, we're going to watch this together. He's getting a pretty intelligent answer when suddenly this guy jumps in and he says "You know what it's about? Food! We need food!" And he's pointing at his mouth. Listen to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(Inaudible)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: "Hava, hava," he says. That means "Just send us food! We need food!"

So, now the reporter goes back to this man and he starts back with the intellectual interview, asking him questions about the Cuban economy and wondering what it is that's going on and how Castro can somehow fix the system, when suddenly, there is yet another interruption.

And the same man tries to make this as simple as he possibly can. "It's very simple," he says, "We need food!" Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(Inaudible)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: In other words, he wants to make things as simplistic as he possibly can. It's kind of funny to watch that. Put me back on camera, if you would, Roger.

Here's what's interesting about this story, because there's a serious side to this story, by the way, which is why I wanted to show it to you. Bonfilo (ph) is that man's name, the one who keeps interrupting, the one who just says, "Send us food. We're hungry!"

He's getting famous now worldwide for his humor and his honesty. And he's now been arrested, arrested by the Cuban government for "pre- criminal dangerousness." Seriously, pre-criminal dangerousness, whatever the hell that means.

Now, here's numero dos, advice to crane operator. It's right in the owner's manual. When operating crane, "don't try to pick up something heavier than your vehicle, stupid."

OK, the manual doesn't really say "stupid," but imagine how this guy felt when he had to be rescued from all the way up there. All right. But the best "foto del dia" is the arrest of Sir Lancelot. Oh, no, they forgot the picture of Sir Lancelot. Oh, well.

After the officer says, hey, nice legs, to the kilt-wearing drunk driver suspect, he notices that he's smoking a cigar. So, he asks Lancelot to leave the cigar in his carriage.

So, here you have a guy in a kilt, an officer, a sobriety test. Let's see, what else can we possibly do to make this story any more strange? I've got it -- how about a fire truck arrives to put out the fire caused by the cigar which the officer made the guy throw back into his car. I swear you can't make this stuff up.

Coming up next, professional football icon John Madden. He'd get a good reception most places, but I've got a bone to pick with this guy about my Miami Dolphins. Well, sort of.

I'm also nervous just to be interviewing him. What a legend.

Stay there. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back.

He's finally made the decision, and a lot of people are not liking it. We're talking about that guy, John Madden. Here's his brand new video game. I mean, kids love this stuff, maybe one of the most successful and most popular sports video games ever.

He's going to be joining me in just a little bit, and already people want to know why is he retiring? Watch this.

Let's go to MySpace if we possibly can. Football -- right there in the middle, Robert -- football just doesn't seem the same without John in the booth. We've gotten comment after comment like that.

So, I'll tell you what, let's ask him, directly. He joins me live. He wants to be on the show and answer your tweets and your questions. So, let's do that, after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: I've got goose bumps, I swear. I'm, like, nervous getting ready to do this interview. He played football, he coached football, he broadcast football, and is the namesake to the most popular video sports game ever.

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. John Madden. Coach, thanks for being with us, sir.

JOHN MADDEN, FORMER NFL COACH: Rick, thank you. Enjoy it.

SANCHEZ: Hey, you know, I went and got this thing so I could ask you about it. What I found out from my son and the guy who sold it to me, the latest version of "Madden," is you got this on Wii now. MADDEN: Right. Yes, we've had it on Wii. In fact, my five- year-old grandson is a pretty good player. Well, he's six years old, and he's a pretty good player on Wii.

SANCHEZ: It's kind of like a boom and a woom and you're doing a lot of movements. I played it the other day, and my wife told me I had to take a shower before coming to bed because I was sweating like -- I was drenched.

MADDEN: Well, that's the thing with the Wii games. You do have to move around a little.

SANCHEZ: You were one of the first to try something -- and maybe there's a combination here. I'm just wondering. You were one of the first to tell it straight, and you took to it so easy.

I mean, it was, like, I remember watching you and you'd set up the offensive plays, and you'd say "And this guy is going to do it out of here and then this guy is going to come, and then this guy, boom, knocks him." And you had such a great time with that. Look at that -- how am I doing, coach?

MADDEN: You're doing well. That's pretty good.

SANCHEZ: Is that the transformation that John Madden, from John Madden the game to John Madden the guy who was video savvy already in the press box?

MADDEN: Well, you know, I started doing that -- I was the first one that did the telestrator. It was pretty good because no one had done it before me in sports. So, it wasn't, like, Madden's not very good at it or he is not as good as these guys. No one else was doing it. So, that was a start there.

And I thought what it did, it was a teaching tool really to put everyone on the same page. You know, if you're going to run a sweep and you were going to pull both guards, you didn't have to say both guards pulled on that, because maybe half the people wouldn't know what you're talking about.

But if you draw, OK, this guy here, he's pulling here, this guy is pulling here, the back is going to get in behind him, boom, you get a block there, you get a seam here, and they go up. And you could draw that whole thing, and then you run it back in replay, and everyone could see it and know what you were talking about.

SANCHEZ: I love that. I was drawing it while you were explaining it, by the way. Look, I got the guard and I pulled him and I got the running back back here. He's going to get the ball and he's going right behind the guard, by the way.

This is fun. You got paid for this?

MADDEN: I got paid for it, yes.

I've been lucky all my life getting paid for stuff that I shouldn't have. I mean, I went from a player to a coach to a broadcaster. I've been in football and I've done nothing else, never worked a day in my life.

SANCHEZ: People would wonder why you stopped coaching, because, I mean, you were darn good when you were coaching. I miss the old AFL. I miss the old AFL, I love the old AFL. And what's not to like about the Oakland Raiders?

But you left that and you went into coaching, and now, I mean, you're not going to be a broadcaster anymore.

MADDEN: No. I felt it was time when I got out of coaching, and then in broadcasting, I loved it, loved every part of it as I did coaching, but there comes a time that it's just time to get out of it.

SANCHEZ: I got somebody here -- you know, we do a socially interactive show, which is perfect, because most of the people who watch us are going to be probably buying up your game because they're all very video savvy like you are.

And they seem to really love you, Coach. Look at this one coming in right now. Turn that over to the left. It says, "Nobody can replace John Madden, not even you, Rick. Tell him thanks for all the good memories."

You get a lot of that everywhere you go, I bet, don't you?

MADDEN: Well, you know, it makes me feel good.

I mean, it's something that, you know, I just enjoyed and loved, and I really, you know, enjoyed fans and travel and meeting people and, you know, kind of being a part of everything.

And, you know, when you miss it, it's kind of like players say, they miss the camaraderie, they miss the team, and it's the same thing here. I'm going to miss the broadcast, I'm going to miss traveling, going to practice, talking to players, to coaches, talking to fans, stopping on the road someplace in the middle of the country and going into a restaurant.

I'm going to miss all that stuff because everything that I did in broadcasting I loved.

SANCHEZ: Direct question, because everybody always wants to ask you this. Why were you either afraid or hesitant to fly?

MADDEN: I wasn't afraid and I wasn't hesitant. It was I had claustrophobia.

SANCHEZ: OK.

MADDEN: And I -- I developed it, and then it would -- you would get enclosed, and then I'd have to get out. And then the next thing would be a panic attack. And if you've ever had a panic attack, I mean, you think you're going to die. And so, anyway, so I got -- the last time I ever flew was in -- it was the Sunday after thanksgiving in 1979. And I said if I get through this flight and get on the ground, I'm never getting on an airplane the rest of my life.

SANCHEZ: I'm going to buy a big bus.

MADDEN: Well, I started on a train, and then I went to the bus.

SANCHEZ: You know, I went to school at a place called Hialeah High School in Miami, grew up getting to know Don Shula, for example. I'll ask you him about in a moment. We have a guy who went to Hialeah High School. His name was Ted Hendricks. He played for you, and as the story goes he was one nutso linebacker.

What can you tell us about Ted Hendricks?

MADDEN: More than nutso, he was a great linebacker. I mean, he was a player that could dominate or take over a game, you know, from the linebacker position. He was -- he was Lawrence Taylor before Lawrence Taylor.

Now, the nutso part was always kind of on the side. I mean, one time we're in training camp at Santa Rosa, and I call up all the players, you know, practice started at 3:00. I'd say, OK, everyone up. And everyone would start to run up.

The gates to the practice field opened up, and here comes Teddy, rides in on a horse.

(LAUGHTER)

And then he just circles the thing. And, you know, you can't overreact to it, so I -- I remember, I just looked at him, I said, "That's nice, Ted."

And then there was a horse show there, and he just borrowed some kid's horse. But that was -- that was Ted Hendricks.

But when it was time to play, man, he was impossible to block. He was tough. He was a great, great player.

SANCHEZ: Yes. He was like a Butkus, that kind of thing.

You and Shula. I grew up in Miami, so I've always idolized Don Shula, gotten to know him over the years, thought he was one of the greatest coaches in the NFL. You were obviously one of the greatest in the NFL. But when it came to the AFL, you guys ruled supreme.

What's your relationship with Coach Shula been like over the years?

MADDEN: Very good. I think that of all the coaches that I coached against, I had more respect for Don Shula than anyone. You know, Vince Lombardi, I had a great deal of respect for. I respected really everyone. But I think that Don Shula was something special. I mean, he was a special guy and he was a coach's coach.

And it's interesting you bring up Don Shula. I'm going to see him Monday night. He's having a dinner party.

SANCHEZ: Oh, great.

MADDEN: And he invited me. So I'm going to see him.

SANCHEZ: Tell him Rick Sanchez says hi.

MADDEN: I'll do that.

SANCHEZ: One of the great ones.

John Madden. This is the game.

And another one of the great ones, but never quite as good a football player or football coach, Wolf Blitzer standing by now. Wolf, take it away.