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Georgia Murder Mystery; FBI Uncovers Human Kidney Black Market Network in New York

Aired September 02, 2009 - 14:59   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Thanks so much, Kyra.

Hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez. It's the next generation of news. It's a conversation, it's not a speech. And it's often that we say it's your turn to get involved.

All right, this is the story that we have been keying on. Eight people dead, and now more than ever, guess what? It's starting to look like a killer or killers are still at large. How would you feel if this is your community that I was talking about right now?

I mean, here's what I need to tell you about these grizzly killings that have been taking place in Brunswick, Georgia. Today, a judge set a $2,000 bail for that man. This is brand-new video, first time we have seen him in court. This is Guy Heinz, Jr. He's the son of one of the victims. He found the victims of these multiple murders in the place where it happened.

Does this bail for him signal that he's not really a serious suspect? And if there are other people involved, who are they? How many are they? Where are they?

Now, here's what's crazy about this case. Police, they're hardly saying anything. I mean, they're all but keeping their community and the media in the dark. Our own reporter today -- well, you're going to hear from him in just a minute.

Before I get to him, I want you to hear something else. Here's what residents in the community are saying, legitimately, about their concerns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEY STRICKLAND, GEORGIA RESIDENT: We're out here living our everyday lives without -- with mass murderer on the loose. We live here. We're not secure. We don't have troops or guards to guard us. We have to walk the streets and live here. And, I mean, whoever did it is still out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Our law enforcement analyst Mike Brooks is here. He's joining me to talk about this a little bit. Also, joining me on the phone is CNN's Sean Callebs, who's there on the scene.

Sean, I was just about to basically tell viewers -- you and I have been on the phone all day talking about this case and I was going to tell viewers what you had told me, because I have sensed this frustration in you.

You told me yesterday you went to the police department three times, and three times they denied you any information or any interviews. This is bizarre. And maybe people should be upset at this police department for keeping them in the dark. They should know.

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that there certainly is the desire down here that people want to know something. How much should we be concerned? What are you looking at? Are there possible motives out there that nobody is talking about right now?

You heard that one young girl, Ashley Strickland. She's actually a friend of Guy Heinze Jr., who was in court today, talking about him and any possibility that he could be tied to this. Of course, we Heinze's attorney says nothing, but we're hearing nothing from the authorities.

We have repeatedly tried to reach out to them. We would love to hear what they have to say, even if it's nothing, even if they say, look, we're doing the best we can, we have no new information, at least something to allay concerns for people here.

SANCHEZ: Well, I'm looking at this picture of Heinze. And, yesterday when we left our viewers, during this hour, it was starting to look like because we had information that he had hidden a shotgun in the trunk of his car from the scene and because we were hearing in certain terms that police are saying he's not being ruled out as a suspect, that this guy may have been responsible.

But, today, you have been talking to his attorney. You have been getting new information. He's about to released on bail. They're talking about only a $20,000 bail, which doesn't sound like to me like the bail for a killer or sudden killer. It's starting to look like it's not him, right?

CALLEBS: Well, I think you could certainly make a strong argument, which you just did. And let me add a couple more things into there.

Before this bond was announced by the court, we know that the prosecution signed off on it. We know the judge signed off on it. And we know the police department signed off on it. So, logic tells you -- and we have covered enough of these things -- if they suspect somebody of a brutal mass murder, eight people brutally murdered in a mobile home, you would find it hard to believe they're going to let that person walk for $20,000.

And we do know -- we talked to his attorney -- that he plans on attending the memorial this Saturday as well, which will be held for seven of the victims. And plain and simple, Ron Harrison, the attorney, said, look, in no way is my client associated with these murders. SANCHEZ: That's important information. And you almost get a little -- show that picture, Dan, if you got it again. I almost have a different take on him now watching him walking into this courtroom.

And, as you look at that, I'm going to bring Mike Brooks into the equation now.

Sean, stick around. Jump in if you want to or if you got something to add.

Do you agree with this assessment that Sean and I just came up with, given what we have been learning about this guy today, because very different from the scenario we had yesterday?

MIKE BROOKS, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Very, very different, Rick, different from day when he came in, called 911. You see him walk in into the courtroom. He's not handcuffed. He's not in shackles. What does that say to me as a former law enforcement investigator? That they don't think that he is the main suspect in this.

And, you know, I have to say, you know, Glynn County, I used to live down there. I was at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center Right, little St. Simon's island right across the causeway from Brunswick. I think if the attorneys down there and the chief and the judge thought that he was a suspect or was involved in this, I don't think they would have been letting him out on $20,000 bail. I really don't.

And...

SANCHEZ: And you're talking to sources, right, as well?

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: We have got Sean working the story down there. He's frustrated.

(CROSSTALK)

BROOKS: But you know what? They're not saying anything. I'm talking to friends and associates down there.

SANCHEZ: And why the hell aren't they saying anything? Because I'm starting to get a little frustrated with Chief Doering down there.

CALLEBS: Matt Doering. Yes, Matt's been down there. He's a lifelong resident of the area. I think he could be doing a little bit better.

But if he doesn't have anything to say, just come out and say, we don't have anything new. OK. As an investigator, I'm not going to be giving away anything, talking about the evidence, anything at all. But they're not saying anything, Rick.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: And, meanwhile, today more than ever...

(CROSSTALK)

BROOKS: ... both sides of the police line tape. I can tell you, you need to keep the public informed. And we heard that from that young lady, and we're hearing the same thing from Sean.

SANCHEZ: Tell them something. Ease their fears in some way if you possibly can.

BROOKS: Is there a killer out there? We don't know.

SANCHEZ: Let me ask you a question. We have learned that these guys, many of the victims were not people who had regular jobs.

BROOKS: Right.

SANCHEZ: I got some names here. Russell Toler, Sr.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: He rented the mobile home, took in a lot of relatives. There's a Chrissy Toler, Russell Toler's daughter and her boyfriend, Joseph West.

Have you got anything on them? Do they got any criminal records, for example?

BROOKS: Chrissy Toler has prior armed robbery, simple battery, some other minor things. Her boyfriend, Joseph West, he's got a coke -- cocaine possession, theft, and some other minor things.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: I'm glad you said that. I'm glad you said that. Do you think -- your antennas, your cop antennas, do they tell you that this may in the end something having to do with drugs or it's some kind of drug hit?

BROOKS: The first time I heard about this, in that area, in that mobile home park, I know where it is. The first thing I would think about with that many people killed and only a 3-year-old surviving is some kind of retaliatory killing.

Now, what is it for? Are any of these people involved in any kind of drugs? Is there any kind of other criminal activity going on? As an investigator, my gut feeling, it's the first thing that I would think of. And what are you going to do? The person who finds these people, you're going to focus on him right from jump street, and that is Guy Heinze.

What is his background? What does he have to do with all of these people?

SANCHEZ: But it's not looking like that.

(CROSSTALK)

BROOKS: He's released, but he has an electronic monitoring device, which is good. Where's he going to go? There's not much -- not many places down there to go.

SANCHEZ: Sean, let bring you back in just to close -- button up this thing.

We still have to put our heads around the fact that eight people are dead. And the ninth that's in critical condition, I understand that's a small child that we're talking about. I didn't know that actually until today, because the numbers here are just so amazing and so horrifying.

CALLEBS: Right. Yes.

SANCHEZ: What can you tell us about this child? What have we learned?

CALLEBS: Yes, it's a 3-year-old child, the 3-year-old of the 22- year-old female victim. And this toddler is in serious condition in a local hospital.

SANCHEZ: Geez.

CALLEBS: And one other thing, one of the -- the 17-year-old young man who was killed had Down syndrome. So, whoever did this was a particularly vicious killer.

But I do want to add one quick thing before I jump, guys.

SANCHEZ: Please. Go ahead

CALLEBS: We're talking about looking at people's past and of course all those logical steps. But I was up in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho.

Now, think back a couple or three years, that brutal killing of a family up there. And they all had had minor drug arrests in their past, and everybody thought it would turn out to be -- everybody thought that was going to be the lead.

Well, it turned out to be some pedophile who had been stalking this family, so it came out of left field. So, you while always follow those antennas that go up, boy, something like this, it's just a wild card.

BROOKS: Yes. And it's not like it -- and, Sean, it's not like it's a robbery motive.

And, two, Rick, it's not like -- it doesn't seem like these people had much. But right now, what is the motive? There is a lot of different activity that goes on down in that area, drug and otherwise. So, who knows? Could it have been just a random act of violence? Absolutely.

And maybe law enforcement, the reason they're not saying anything, maybe they don't know anything. But I find...

(CROSSTALK)

CALLEBS: They could be totally stymied at this point, exactly.

BROOKS: Absolutely. And this area...

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: I don't think so. I just don't get that sense. We will have to leave it at that, because we're out of time. But my sense is that there's something going on they don't want to reveal and for some reason they have decided to just keep the public in the dark, which I just don't think is a good public relations move.

(CROSSTALK)

BROOKS: No, I don't either. And a cop, former cop, I can tell you, it sounds like it's retaliatory, but we don't know right now. So...

SANCHEZ: Thanks to you. Thanks to Sean.

Gentlemen, we will see you again.

I have got a story that happened just a couple of days ago, but I'm now hearing about it as I was coming to work today. So, I felt compelled to share it with you. This is a story about a child that's crying in a store. Stay with me. A man tells the mother, shut that baby up, or I'm going to shut it for you. Talking about a 2-year-old. That's insulting enough, isn't it?

You want to know what's even more insulting? What he did next that we will detail for you next in two minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)

SANCHEZ (voice-over): This man told a woman to shut up her crying 2-year-old at a Wal-Mart or he would do it for her. Here's the news. Police say he did it. He slapped the woman's child.

GOV. RICK PERRY (R), TEXAS: With liberty in their hearts and independence on their mind.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

SANCHEZ: Is the governor of Texas a frenzy with talk of recession for political gain? What gives with Rick Perry?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have to say I'm pretty depressed about it.

SANCHEZ: When you're so poor, you have got nothing left to sell, what do you do? You sell your kidney. This is a CNN exclusive report that will shock you. We will tell you who's busted.

We know him as the man who found his family dead and called police.

GUY HEINZE, FAMILY MEMBER OF VICTIMS: I think my whole family's dead.

SANCHEZ: But why was he hiding a shotgun from police?

Your national conversation on what continues to be a fiery California on Wednesday, September 2, 2009, starts right now.

(END VIDEO CLIPS)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez here in the world headquarters of CNN, 13 minutes after the hour.

What would you do -- seriously, what would you do to get a kid to stop crying? You have been in this situation. We all have. Sometimes, it's been our own kids. I will bet it's not what this man did. Let me set the scene for you.

It's a Wal-Mart store in metro Atlanta. It's aisle seven that I'm talking about, a mom and her cranky 2-year-old. Suddenly, 61- year-old Roger Stephens appears. He's angry about the loud and the screaming baby, and he tells the mom, if you can't shut that kid up, I will do it for you.

As insulting as that sounds, what he did next is worse. The man then took it upon himself to grab the woman's toddler, 2 years old, and whack, whack, whack, whack, slapped the 2-year-old across the face four times.

Then he turned to the mom and he said to her, you see, I told you, I would shut her up. Another shopper finally interrupted Stephens, held him until store security and the police could arrive. Those pictures you were just looking at him, that was in court today, where appeared to face felony charges of felony cruelty on a child. That's the Wal-Mart where it happened.

What would you have done? I want you to shoot me a tweet or hit me on my blog at CNN.com/ricksanchez.

Meanwhile, when we come back, I want you to watch an investigative report that Drew Griffin has prepared about people who may profit on people who are desperate enough to sell a body part. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: I had a feeling that, when we did this story, there was going to be a lot of reaction from you on Twitter and elsewhere. So, let's go ahead and do that. Let's go to the Twitter board if we can just a moment.

Look at the first one. It says: "I cannot believe he slapped the kid," talking got that 2-year-old in that previous story. "What is it with people nowadays?"

And then look at what Skip says. Skip says, "You slap my 2-year- old, and I guarantee you will lose your teeth." You have goT to love Skip on that one.

Here's a story I have been wanting to bring you throughout the day, because when I watched this, I was moved by it. It's hard to imagine somebody being so desperate for money that they would be willing to sell a body part -- a body part. Yet, as difficult as it is to wrap your head around something like this, now consider this, that there may be people out there as well who are cutting deals and profiting from this ghoulish enterprise.

That is what Drew Griffin of CNN's Special Investigations Unit has been looking into. He has for us now this exclusive report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: When the FBI arrested Brooklyn businessman Izhak Rosenbaum, they had no idea what they say they uncovered would be so big.

(on camera) Law enforcement sources who are still investigating tell CNN Rosenbaum was running an operation called United Life Line. It was using hospitals in New York, Boston, and Philadelphia. What he was doing was selling kidneys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His business was to entice vulnerable people to give up a kidney for $10,000.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): Investigators say the donors and patients in this network had one thing in common: they were all Jewish. Donors usually came from Eastern Europe, mostly poor, selling their kidneys for $5,000 to $6,000 to U.S. and Israeli patients willing to pay up to $160,000 for the kidney itself and the transplant.

Rosenbaum's attorney claims he hasn't had enough time to assess the FBI's case and offered no comment. But the lawyer did say law enforcement's account of Rosenbaum's network was inaccurate.

To those who study the illegal trade of organs, allegations of widespread trafficking and kidneys on the East Coast should surprise no one. In the recent past, according to researcher Dr. Nancy Scheper-Hughes, that has included organized crime.

NANCY SCHEPER-HUGHES, FOUNDER, ORGANS WATCH: Mainly that business has been run by a kind of Russian mafia. And often they have been using Bulgarian guest workers or they have been using, you know, new Russian immigrants to kind of fuel it.

NICK ROSEN, KIDNEY SELLER: So, I saw an ad in the paper. And the ad said kidney donor wanted.

GRIFFIN: Nick Rosen says selling a kidney in the United States was as easy as answering that ad. Nick Rosen is an Israeli citizen. He bears the scars of an operation where he says neither doctors nor the hospital asked too many questions.

(on camera): Do you think they knew? Do you think the surgeon who did the surgery knew?

ROSEN: I think they -- they may -- they may have had a feeling or a hint. But I can't say I know for sure.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): A few weeks after answering the ad with a promised payoff of $20,000, Rosen said he was flown from Tel Aviv to New York, possibly to New York's Mount Sinai Hospital, where he and the patient he'd never met before told hospital staff they were cousins.

(on camera) They didn't ask for family records or anything like that?

ROSEN: No. No.

GRIFFIN: So basically, you were just two guys who came in, declared yourselves cousins?

ROSEN: Yes.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): Doctor Barbara Murphy is in charge of the hospital's kidney unit. She says screening is rigorous but...

DR. BARBARA MURRAY, MT. SINAI HOSPITAL: We're not detectives. We're not the FBI. And we don't have methods that they have at -- at our disposal. And people can on occasions deceive us.

GRIFFIN: Nancy Scheper-Hughes is a University of California anthropologist who has been tracking illegal organ sales for 15 years. She says for the hospitals, it pays to look the other way.

SCHEPER-HUGHES: Ask not only what about the surgery, what about the transplant coordinators? The nurse coordinators, the hospital chaplain, the bioethicist who is supposed to screen people and say, "Well, how long you have known each other?"

GRIFFIN: On the day we talked to her, she said she was learning of a young Korean man recovering in Los Angeles's Cedar Sinai Hospital, having just sold his kidney for $25,000 in cash.

(on camera) And this took place...

SCHEPER-HUGHES: Last night.

GRIFFIN: Last night.

SCHEPER-HUGHES: In Los Angeles.

GRIFFIN: In Los Angeles.

SCHEPER-HUGHES: That's right.

GRIFFIN: With $20,000. SCHEPER-HUGHES: Yes, a kid who does not speak much English, who is terrified and shaking, and thought, maybe I made a mistake to do this. But $25,000, you have to admit, is -- is a good amount of cash.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): A source with knowledge of the deal confirmed to CNN, the surgery did, indeed, take place. The hospital wouldn't comment on specifics, due to privacy concerns, but said if at any time during the evaluation process the transplant team suspects the donor is being inappropriately paid for a kidney, the transplant is canceled.

But to Scheper-Hughes, that's not happening enough. The World Health Organization estimates 1 out of every 10 kidney transplants in the world is illicit.

SCHEPER-HUGHES: Well, I think there is stopping it. I have to say, I'm pretty depressed about it now.

GRIFFIN: Depressed because it's a business that's only getting bigger, as more of the world's desperately poor are willing to sell off a piece of themselves.

Drew Griffin, CNN, Berkeley, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: That's a good piece of investigative journalism. And Drew's here with us here now.

I have chased stories like this before going to places like Latin America and found that most of the time they're bogus, they're just rumors. This is no rumor. This is going on.

GRIFFIN: This is no rumor. It is going on. In the course of our investigation, we talked to a broker. I have seen the scars.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Stay right -- hold it right there. I want to bring you back right after the break and you and I are going to continue this conversation because I want to know more and I think a lot of our viewers do as well.

Stay with us. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: This is amazing. Drew is joining us once again to talk about this.

And the sick feeling I was getting as I watched this story was what people will do for money, which is about anything.

GRIFFIN: Right. And that is the reason that so many people are against this kind of open market for kidneys, because you have to be pretty desperate to sell a body part. And what you're finding in many cases is people selling them for $5,000, as low as $2,700.

SANCHEZ: But it's almost like you're bringing somebody who has money with somebody who is so desperate to have money. There's just something just inherently wrong about that.

GRIFFIN: Well, it's desperation on both sides.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

GRIFFIN: This side is with money and dying. This side is healthy with no money. They meet in the middle. And both sides are appeased.

You know, it is what -- we're talking to a broker tonight on our report.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

GRIFFIN: He says, look it, it's sad, but it's the cold fact. This is how it is. I hate to tell you, but this is how this world operates.

SANCHEZ: And when you say a broker, this is the go-between; this is the person who puts the deal together?

GRIFFIN: This is the man who actually made a living taking patients and finding kidneys and putting them together in hospitals all around the world to allow these transplants to take place.

SANCHEZ: It's illegal?

GRIFFIN: It has been legal. It's illegal in this country.

SANCHEZ: Right.

GRIFFIN: It has been illegal in other countries. But what these brokers do is, they know the laws. So, they bounce around to the various countries. China, it was legal, then not legal. The Philippines were legal, then not legal. They have been to South Africa, Brazil, the Ukraine, the same kind of crowd traveling to different countries for different laws.

SANCHEZ: This is amazing stuff. We will look forward to part two. Thanks so much.

GRIFFIN: You bet.

SANCHEZ: Thanks so much, Drew.

Should we finally just bite the bullet and say to Cuba and the Castro brothers, we're willing to lift the embargo, enough is enough? Or is it? This is a question. Former U.N. Ambassador Bill Richardson has just returned from Cuba. And he's going to be talking to me live about what he's finding out and how close we are to making that happen.

Also, remember the after-show. We will do it here at 4:00. I will look forward to seeing you on CNN.com/live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: There's breaking news coming in to us right now, the president of the United States has just announced a joint session of Congress, a joint session of Congress to be held September 9.

September 9, as you know, is next Wednesday, when they do return. One would certainly think that the president is going to be addressing the issue of health care, although that's not been officially termed as the reason for this joint session of Congress.

The president has been certainly heavily criticized for not taking ownership of the health care debate. This may be the opportunity for him to set the table. We're going to be talking about that in just a little bit.

But we're also going to be talking about this. The Obama administration has also been reaching out to Cuba recently, restarting talks on legal migration between the two countries and getting ready to negotiate direct mail service. It doesn't sound like much, but when you're talking about a country that has been our enemy, going on 50 years -- no check that, going on 60 years, its news. New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson has just returned from Cuba, he joins me now from Santa Fe, New Mexico. Governor thanks for being with us sir.

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON, (D) NEW MEXICO: Thank you, Rick, nice to be with you.

SANCHEZ: Always a pleasure when you and I hook up. Before we get into Cuba, let me just ask you because we have this breaking news, it just came in moments ago. We're not sure if the president's going to be talking about health care during this joint session of Congress that he's called for next Wednesday, but if I had a bucket and I had to be it, I would think it would be a pretty safe bet, don't you?

RICHARDSON: Yes, I think it's a very good move by the White House. The president is the best weapon in the administration arsenal to convince the American people that we need health care reform. And I believe right now, what has been discussed is House bills, Senate bills, all these negotiations, but I think what the public needs to hear is the president's vision for health care reform. So I think this is a very smart move. He's the best weapon the administration has. And right now, what is needed is movement in the House and Senate towards a health care bill, get something on the table for voting.

SANCHEZ: I think you're right, I think he needs to own this thing, I think he needs to say, up-or-down vote, but it's going to be my idea, my vote, my legacy, my presidency. He can't be sitting around waiting for Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi to make this thing happen for him. If nothing else, he doesn't get helped by that in either way because he's getting killed by Republicans.

RICHARDSON: I think he has an opportunity to speak to the country, to unify the country, to put pressure on the Congress. I think the president's vision on health care reform is a good one. But the more he personalizes it, the more he talks directly to the American people, how it affects them, and he is such a very good communicators, that this makes a lot of sense.

SANCHEZ: Let me ask you about Cuba, you just returned from your trip there, you know what my relatives and friends in Miami who are still hard liners are going to be saying about you, you know, they're going to be saying that you've betrayed them, that you shouldn't talk to these guys, that you shouldn't go to Cuba and all you're doing is helping Fidel. And to that you say what, governor?

RICHARDSON: Well what I say Rick is there's -- I can't speak for your relatives and I know you know this issue real well, but I can tell you there's a lot of Cuban Americans I have spoken to in Florida, in New Jersey, that recognize that whatever has happened in terms of the trade embargo, it really hasn't worked, so we need a new policy.

Now my position is, you don't unilaterally take the trade embargo off the table. You negotiate, you want to get the Cuban government to do more on human rights, on political prisoners, but what we should start doing, which helps many Cuban Americans is humanitarian issues, some of these postal negotiations, travel ban, more Americans should be able to travel to Cuba.

Academics, artists, business leaders, you know, I think it's important on the same side that the Cuban government, they were a little intransigent when I suggested look, allow more Cubans to come to the United States without so many restrictions. And my point with Cuban Americans, Rick is, you know that Cuban Americans have driven this policy in republican and democratic administrations and I believe there should be a dialogue, no preconditions, but not substituting for negotiations where the Cubans hear, the Cuban American point of view from Republicans and Democrats on many of these issues. And all I'm proposing is a dialogue that should happen and I don't believe our Cuba policy should change unless we consult with Cuban Americans in America.

SANCHEZ: You're absolutely right, Governor, but it's interesting because that word is dialago, I've heard it a million times and I've heard it once throughout my life. And usually it's a sign that someone is either a lefty or is willing to sit down with Fidel Castro and that word in and of itself, which just means as you said a dialogue, talking to people, it doesn't mean we're going to lift the embargo, it means we should talk about ways to maybe figure things out, that scares people. But let me ask you another question, Ricardo Alarcon, is apparently who you met with, right? Did you meet with Alarcon?

RICHARDSON: I met with him twice, yes.

SANCHEZ: Now Alarcon is like the elder in Cuba. This is a guy who's been the adviser to Castro, both Raul and Fidel. I'm always interested in where his head is. What can you tell us about your meeting specifically with him. What does he want; what does he expect of the Obama administration?

RICHARDSON: Well, he said what you just said, Rick, genuine dialago. You know he, I believe is probably the most powerful man in Cuba, second to the Castro brothers. And I believe he's known American policy and presidents, I think we can work with a guy like that. He was very interested in some of the humanitarian talks that were going on that are very important because they involve people, Rick, they involve families reuniting, they involve remittances.

SANCHEZ: Listen, I have a cousin in Cuba, Governor, who -- I have a cousin in Cuba who I love, who I write to. He and I have e- mailed each other from time to time, I know he's got kids just like I've got kids and we have spent our whole lives not knowing each other because he lives over there and I live over here. We're about the same exact age, married to similar wives, have children almost the same age, it saddens me that I have never gotten to know my cousin because of a political situation. I'll tell you that flat out.

RICHARDSON: Well you know Rick, if President Obama has lifted some of those travel restrictions so that your cousin can come to see you. What needs to happen in the Obama administration is they have to put out the regulations, implement those policies and I think that's going to happen soon. And the fact that Obama has done that has created a good atmosphere in Cuba, at least on the Cuban side that maybe this administration is different. Maybe they are interested in reaching out to us, but, look, dialago doesn't just mean talking, it means tough negotiations. The Cubans are going to have to loosen up some of their very hard line positions.

SANCHEZ: And so are we -- we have to loosen up some of our positions probably as well. And I think it's happening, governor, it's not so much about Obama, it's not so much about this president, it's about this environment that we're in right now which has changed. You're right, it's not as monolithic as it used to be, and there are more people who are willing to talk, I believe. Do you find that?

RICHARDSON: Yes. And Rick, I would propose somebody like you, Cuban American Republicans and Democrats, to, like, talk to the Cubans about mainly, possibly focusing on the humanitarian issues, on the visa restrictions that exist, on allowing families like your cousin to be able to come home freely back and forth to have remittances. That hasn't quite happened yet. But the Cuban side has to give something too. It's not just the U.S. and I think President Obama has made the first move in loosening these travel restrictions, I just hope they can get them going to regulation so it can actually happen. And then in effect your cousin could come see you.

SANCHEZ: There's work to be done on both sides. Maybe we could start by having the Cubans get rid of the damn political prisoners who are in jail for no other reason than what they think, which is absolutely wrong, you know it, I know it, the whole world knows it.

RICHARDSON: Right.

SANCHEZ: Governor, it is always a pleasure.

RICHARDSON: All right, buddy. Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Mothers threaten to wash their kids' mouths out and I have seen, but now a judge has gone one step further. He has taped a defendant's mouth shut in court and we have got the video of this as it happens.

Also eight people dead, in a mobile home in Georgia. And still very few answers. I'm going to take you through the very latest on this case. Including what happened to the man who made the 911 call, whether there's a killer or killers still on the loose. This is a story we have been really drilling down on and we're not going to stop, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: I always tell my staff that I can always tell when somebody doesn't have kids when they're so quick to criticize other parents. Like this tweet that I'm reading right now that we were just looking at over the break.

Deborah Hopkins said, about that story I told you about in Wal- Mart where the man went up to another person's child and slapped them four times because they were misbehaving. She blames the mom, she says, "Mothers never discipline their kids when they act up in stores. Let this be a lesson to you mother outs there. Discipline!" I could say something Deborah, but I would probably get in trouble, because I have seen what it's like to raise four kids and sometimes kids will, Deborah, will be kids.

Our top story, people in Brunswick, Georgia today expressing renewed fear about a possible mass killer or killers on the loose. This as we get new information about more of the eight victims. Look at this. All those people murdered. Tough to look at when you think of just the numbers alone.

Well today a judge set bail for this man, this is Guy Heinze, first pictures we've seen of him, Guy Heinze, Jr., he's the son of one of the victims, by the way. He reported the deaths to 911 and shortly after that he was arrested on charges that include lying to police. If anyone thought he was the mass killing suspect, his bail today seems to conflict with that. His bail was only set at $20,000.

Does that sound to you like the bail of a suspected mass killer? And as you heard Sean Callebs tell us earlier in the show, that approved by not just the judge but also by the local police, by all the prosecutors in this case. I also want to tell you one more thing about this story, there's more frustration now aimed at police for not even telling the public what's been going on, they are frustrated, the residents are who live in that community. Most of us would be, too. Listen to this woman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEY STRICKLAND, BRUNSWICK, GA RESIDENT: We're out here living our everyday lives without -- with a mass murder on the loose. We live here, we're not secure, we don't have troops or guards to guard us. We have to walk the streets and live here and, I mean, whoever did it is still out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Again, this is the top story that we have been following for you. I also want to tell you something I had gotten just a little while ago from CNN's Sean Callebs. He got a call back from police after his live report that he did for us. I'll pass this on for the record. The police tell Sean they have no new information. Wow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: My wife and I have a standing joke about my father-in- law, Carl Basher. You see, Papa is from the South, and in the South, everything is fixed with duct tape. Let's do "Fotos."

This judge in Canton, Ohio must know my father-in-law very well. Because when a defendant kept interrupting him and he wouldn't shut up, guess what he did? He used duct tape. Yep, he had the guards use duct tape to shut the guy up and you know what? Just like my living room table that my father-in-law fixed, it's still standing, the defendant shut up. Eureka.

Meanwhile in Madison, Wisconsin at an intersection near the state capital, a lawmaker made a horrible mistake, she didn't pay attention when the light changed from green to red, you know, red as in stop, just kept going and that happened. The police report shows the state representative admits to not just paying attention. The biker thank goodness does not have life-threatening injuries. The lawmaker says his heart goes out to the injured biker and adds he's in my thoughts and prayers.

It's out of Hong Kong, but it may as well be Peoria. My line producer Chris Hall says that we should all know that we should never walk into a restaurant around closing time because you will be hated by the employees for doing it. They may even hate you enough to do this. Yep. Captured on cell phone video. The employees are seen taking the food out of the garbage to fill this order. Why? Because they had already cleaned the grills and put away most of the items. And they had also thrown away the leftovers. Wait, did I say leftovers? I mean, the next order they're getting out of the garbage can. Yummy.

All right, what's going on in Texas politics? What's the deal with all this talk of secession? This is Rick Perry versus Kay Bailey Hutchison, Texas style. We got Roland Martin here also from Texas to referee. R & R is coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: All right, welcome back. We've been telling you about this breaking news, and that is that the president of the United States has decided to address a joint session of Congress. He will do so on September 9th. That is next Wednesday. What will he be addressing? Well, I figured it out. You probably figured it out pretty well yourself. He's finally going to try and get a handle on this health care reform legislation that seems to be going in many directions right now.

Heavily being criticized, and while we're at it not exactly helping his approval numbers. So, again, the president maybe in an attempt to try and own this thing, will try next Wednesday, September 9th, to address a joint session of Congress just as they are returning from recess to address health care reform. We are going to be all over it and expect that Wolf Blitzer will be over it as well in "The Situation Room" which is coming up in only eight minutes.

Meanwhile, this next segment, one of my favorites, every week. I'm Rick, he's Roland, "R & R" is next. There he is as a matter of fact. Hey, what's going on in Texas, man? Wait, don't answer that. Because we're going to do it after the break.

ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: What did you ask the question for?

SANCHEZ: Because I wanted to tease our audience. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Man, we've got a ton of reaction from you on that guy at Wal-Mart who decided to slap down somebody else's kid. We're going to talk about that in just a little bit and we're going to share many of your responses. I know you're dying to hear them. Remember all the talk though about Texas seceding from the union? America, what may be going on here? Take a look at this rally. This is last Saturday in Austin, and I want you to hear what some of the speakers are saying. I mean, they sound serious. Listen in with me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stepping off into secession may in fact be a bloody war. We are aware. We understand that the tree of freedom is occasionally watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Boy, suddenly Thomas Jefferson is a very popular quote these days. All right. We tend to dismiss such talk as coming from the political fringe, but keep in mind this is important, the state's own Governor Rick Perry was accused of stirring stuff like this up when he addressed a tea party. This was back in April. In fact, we got it. Remember this?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RICK PERRY, (R) TEXAS: It gives me the thrill up my leg when I see all the people standing out here on the city hall of Austin, Texas, with liberty in their hearts and independence on their mind. I'm talking about state's rights. State's rights. State's rights!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: A thrill in his leg and state's rights. All right. Time for "R & R." Rick and Roland. Roland Martin is our CNN political analyst, and he's donning a very nice debonair head apparel on this day.

MARTIN: You wanted to talk about Texas. I said bring it on, Rick.

SANCHEZ: All right. Look, with that hat or without that hat I want to know what you have to say because I know you know Texas politics.

MARTIN: I'll take it off for you, Rick. Here's the deal, Rick.

SANCHEZ: Let me -- listen to this question. Is the governor partly responsible for some of this crazy talk?

MARTIN: OK, first of all, you're going to have this conversation regardless of whether the governor made his comment or not, but here's what you have. You have a governor who is now embroiled in a very difficult race. He's facing Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison. He's going to portray her as being this liberal who Democrats are going to love in the statehouse.

He is trying to appeal to these hardcore conservatives because he knows if he can knock her out in the primary, the bottom line is no democrat holds any statewide office in Texas. He has a very good shot at winning another four-year term. He's already the longest serving governor in Texas history and that's what this is all about but it's still just stupid talk, it's just ridiculous.

SANCHEZ: At what cost? I can understand if somebody told me, you know, if you say this, you might be able to get those people over there, those 80,000 people to support you, but I look in the mirror, and I say I can't say that. That's not right to say that. I love my country. I'm not going to talk about leaving the United States of America which I've pledged allegiance to.

MARTIN: Well, first of all, it is ridiculous conversation. Look, those of us from Texas, we know Texas used to be its own country, had its own president and so he is technically right, that is, allowing Texas into the union. There's a provision that Texas could always leave. It's just ridiculous, OK. He was playing to the audience, playing to the crowd. He sounded ridiculous making the comment, but what he's trying to do, like many of these other folks around the country, they are trying to tap into this anger, this resentment and this outrage that we see all across the country.

We see it in town hall meetings, but it is ridiculous for him as a governor, and frankly for me -- look, as a fellow Texas Aggie as he is, it's embarrassing to hear him talk like this. He's the governor of the state. You don't want the governor talking this way. You also have to be very careful when you start talking about state's rights, as an African-American, state's rights has a whole different meaning. Because you start thinking about Ross Barton in Mississippi, you start thinking about what happened when it came to segregation, when it came to "Brown versus Board of Education." So he has to be very careful using that kind of language by saying state's rights.

SANCHEZ: State's rights has racist overtones, I'll say it for you. How about Kay Bailey Hutchison, by the way? We're down to 30 seconds, and I know you and I are going to continue in a little bit. If he's going for that vote you describe, what's she going to get? What's she going for?

MARTIN: Again, what she's trying to do, she's trying to go after those independents. Look, Texas, you have 500,000 people who have been moving to Texas every year for the last three to four to five years so the demographics are changing. She is trying to go after the people who recognize that she's a moderate Republican. She is not had a hard core conservative so she wants to hopefully have independents, even some of those blue dog Democrats come over to the GOP and vote for her in the primary. That's how she's going after him, but it is going to be an ugly, nasty race. It will be even nastier than Clayton Williams versus Ann Richards back in the '90s, it will be nastier than that race, trust me.

SANCHEZ: Stay right there. You and I are going to continue. Here's Suzanne Malveaux with "THE SITUATION ROOM."