Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Jaycee Dugard Revealed; The Debate Over Blackface

Aired October 14, 2009 - 15:00   ET


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: All right, thank you very much for that, Kyra.

Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon, in today for Rick Sanchez. This is the next generation of news. It is a conversation; it's not a speech and it is your turn to get involved.

And I'm checking some of your comments right now. And we're going to be looking at them. So why don't we get started?

If you have been paying attention to news lately, it seems like the world is experiencing a blackface renaissance. Remember just last week we reported on this controversial blackface skit on an Australian program, this group of white guys wearing black makeup and Afros calling themselves the Jackson Jive, performing for a talent competition?

Well, that was then. This is now. The October issue of "French Vogue" magazine, a 14-page photo spread of Dutch model Lara Stone with her skin painted black. The question is, are the editors pushing the fashion envelope or are they just pushing buttons here? Maybe they didn't even think some people might find it insensitive or even offensive.

And there's more. A recent episode of AMC chose "Mad Men" had a character in blackface imitating a minstrel at a wedding. And keep in mind the show is set in the less-than-P.C. 1960s. And, oh, there's Robert Downey Jr., remember him, in "Tropic Thunder," and then on and on and on.

"French Vogue" is notorious for their provocative shoots. They recently had a spread portraying fake pregnant women smoking cigarettes and a cross-dressing issue. So, are these pictures that we're talking about, the blackfaced ones, are they avant-garde? Do they completely cross the line? And to be fair, there are pictures of the model slathered in white paint as well. So, are you offended?

Joining me right now Jenna Sauers from New York. She is a former model and now the editor of

So good to see you there.


LEMON: And you're looking very much like a model.

So, when you see these pictures, and, you know, this is fashion. Fashion is -- they do some very odd things. What do you think? Is it offensive to you?

SAUERS: I'm -- I guess I'm sort of offended aesthetically speaking. It's not the most successful of spreads artistically speaking. I think the concept was definitely lacking. Somebody should have thought about this before it hit the presses.

LEMON: Well, you have to think, you know, there may be a different take on when you talk about minstrel shows and blackface in different countries. This is France.

And I have to say, when I looked at the pictures immediately, I'm not sure if I was offended. I wasn't sure how to take it, but if it's just art or what have you. And many people are not offended by it. They just say it's sort of bad judgment. And the question is, it's kind of hard for black models to find work. Why not hire a black model, instead of painting a white model in blackface?

SAUERS: I think that's a very good question that should probably be put to the editors of "French Vogue" and to the American photographer, Steven Klein, who took these pictures.

I think, certainly, if I were a black model who was talented and hardworking and faced a lot of racism in the industry, I would be very offended that this magazine decided to do this, as though painting a white model black is as good as hiring an actual model of coverage. This was actually "French Vogue"'s supermodels issue, and it contained no models of color whatsoever, which is just astonishing.

LEMON: And is it -- I said it's hard. I'm not in the industry, but I remember "Italian Vogue" just maybe a year or two ago had to do -- Steven Meisel did the whole black model issue to sort of highlight the issue of black models finding work in the business. Is that a big problem for the industry and does this play into it?

SAUERS: Yes, I think it is. It's definitely a big problem in the industry. A lot of models have spoken out about it, as have their agents, as have photographers and clients.

There seems to be a little bit of a blame game going on. Agencies say that clients don't want to hire black models. Black models say that they go to castings and see things, you know, written like, sorry, no ethnic girls today.

LEMON: What is that? Tell me about that. Have you experienced that? Have you heard that in the industry?

SAUERS: Yes. Actually, yes, that was definitely something that I saw in the industry.

The way modeling works is, your agency gives you castings during the day and oftentimes there will be notes there at the bottom written, like, go there between 12:00 and 2:00, see this photographer. For this kind of a story, they want a sporty girl with brown hair. And sometimes there will be things written there like, sorry, nobody too ethnic. LEMON: What is that? Are they afraid that, as you say, too ethnic, that people may not buy the clothing or buy the magazine if they see someone who is ethnic or of color on the cover or in the issue? It's a little odd.

But and then when you think about that, right, then they go and paint a white model black. It just seems like it's -- there's a contradiction there.

SAUERS: Yes. No, there's absolutely a huge disconnect there. It's astonishing that in this day and age that this as a concept would even make it to print. Given that black models, actual real black models continue to have such a problem working in the industry, actually, I think this month in "Teen Vogue," the model Jourdan Dunn was -- who is black and from London -- was talking about being turned away at the last minute from a casting because they had simply decided not to put any black girls on the runway that particular season. Yes.

LEMON: And that is -- that's in -- you're talking about in America or you are talking about worldwide?

SAUERS: I think it happens all over the industry, especially in the four main centers, in New York, London, Paris, and Milan.

LEMON: So, then what do you do then? Obviously, you're a writer and editor for Jezebel. And, first, before I ask you what you do, what's Jezebel's stance? Is there an official stance? Are you releasing something on this particular matter?

SAUERS: I think -- I don't know if Jezebel has an official stance, other than that, definitely, we think that the fashion industry should do a lot more for diversity and should present a much wider array of kinds of female beauty than they currently do present.

LEMON: All right. That -- OK, so then what's the solution? If we're talking about some people found it offensive, OK, it's art; we know that we have these problems; then what do you do? The girls in the industry, the agencies in the industry, the magazines, someone should be able to do something. Give us some -- offer us some advice here.

SAUERS: I think not painting white models black for entertainment purposes...

LEMON: Is a good start.

SAUERS: ... would be a really great start.

I think definitely more clients in magazines have to hire black models. Some of them do it sometimes, and then they take a break from it. You know, Prada had a few black girls -- or I think at least one black girl in their runway shows two seasons ago, and then they went back to an all-white cast.

It seems that it happens in fits and starts. People really need to just get over this and realize that it's not OK to put out an issue of a magazine dedicated to supermodels and not include a single black girl, let alone an Asian model or any Latino models. That's just not OK.

LEMON: Hey, where are you originally from? I hear the accent, but I'm not sure. And as I'm looking, I want to get some of the comments in. Where are you originally from?

SAUERS: I grew up in New Zealand, yes.

LEMON: OK. Do you think it's -- New Zealand, which is close to Australia, where we had this issue with the minstrel show just a bit ago. Do you think that in different parts of the world that they see this differently and they may not -- not that they shouldn't be, but they may not be aware of the meaning and what it means to people around the world and they may be offended by it?

SAUERS: I think that's definitely true.

I mean, Continental Europe and certainly not Australia and New Zealand, they don't share America's particular history of blackface shows as a form of entertainment in the 19th century And even 20th.

It's true that blackface doesn't necessarily have the particular cultural significance overseas that it does in the States.


SAUERS: But that doesn't mean that Europe is entirely -- that the idea of representing black people in an exaggerated or stereotypical way is completely foreign to Europe, or that -- I mean, Europe has its own colonial history going on. Certainly, France does.

LEMON: And everybody. And even in Australia with the...


LEMON: The Aborigines and New Zealand with the Maori. It's all...

SAUERS: Oh, absolutely, yes.

LEMON: Every -- just about every country has that issue.

SAUERS: Absolutely.

LEMON: Hey, Jenna, Jenna Sauers, an editor and writer for "Jezebel" magazine, we appreciate it. Thank you so much.

SAUERS: Thank you.

LEMON: Very good insight.

And I'm checking your comments on Twitter, on all sorts of networking sites here. And we're going to show them to you in just a little bit.

But I have to tell you, she was...


JENNIFER SCHUETT, CRIME VICTIM: I am not a victim, but instead victorious.


LEMON: Sorry about that. She was only 8 years old when she was kidnapped. She was raped, slashed in her throat and then left for dead. But she defied all the odds, clinging to life in hope, and nearly 20 years later a huge break in this case. You don't want to miss that one.

And we're about to show you Jaycee Dugard today, 18 years after she was snatched at the age of 11. That's next.


LEMON: All right, so just about everyone has been wondering what Jaycee Dugard looks like today. In just a few seconds, you're going to see her. But here's how she looked when she was snatched from a California bus stop. This was 18 years ago, the face of a smiling 11- year-old girl.

So, less than two months after she was found living in horrible conditions in tents and sheds hidden in the backyard of a couple accused of kidnapping her comes our first look, and here it is, at Jaycee Dugard as a smiling adult. Her picture is on the cover of "People' magazine with the quote "I'm so happy to be back."

Dugard and her two daughters fathered by alleged kidnapper Phillip Garrido, they live with Dugard's mother. She tells "People" that she cooks and rides horses and is thinking about writing a book. She's also grown very close to her sister, who was a baby when Dugard was snatched.

Jaycee Dugard will have to relive her nightmare in court when she testifies against Garrido and his wife, who have pleaded not guilty to 29 charges in that case. A family attorney says Jaycee will share a very, very sordid tale.

And, next, another young girl brutally attacked and left for dead in a field defies the odds and devotes her life to seeking justice. Nineteen years later, justice is served, and it happened just yesterday.


LEMON: All right, checking some of your comments now, why don't we go ahead and look at them. This is from Twitter.

RanGT says: "Sounds like modeling -- the modeling world needs a little affirmative action. Sad."

And then says: "Sure, blackface is offensive, but what about yellowface? It's still quite common today."

"Hey, Don, nice to see you. Offended, but can push the idea of black beauty? The success may cause the hiring of black models."

That seems to be the issue. People were wondering whether it's offensive or not. I think the issue is, why didn't they just hire a black model? And that is what everyone is saying. We are going to continue to follow your updates and your comments. We will bring them to you right here on CNN.

A young woman devotes her life to finding the man who nearly murdered her almost two decades ago. In the middle of the night, he stole her from her bed when she was just 8 years old. He chocked her, he raped her, and he left her for dead in a Texas field. She couldn't scream because he slashed her throat.

If not for children playing hide and seek in the field who stumbled upon her -- her bloody body, well, she probably would have died right there. His face was frozen in her mind from the beginning. And look how Jennifer Schuett's precise description helped police come up with a mug shot 19 years later.

Dennis Earl Bradford is under arrest. The 40-year-old welder was living in Arkansas. The FBI had his DNA since 1996. He had been convicted of a similar crime involving a woman he met over a game of pool. All these years, Schuett worked with police and talked publicly about her ordeal, even setting up a Web site -- it's called Justice for Jennifer -- in hopes of finding that stranger and bringing him to justice.

Police matched the DNA found on the clothing she wore that horrible day in a sample in an FBI database. That technology didn't exist back then. That's why it just happened. In an emotional news conference yesterday, she would vow to continue to use her history, her story to reach out to other crime victims.


SCHUETT: Throughout this journey, I have had two main goals. And they were to find the man who kidnapped, sexually assaulted and attempted to murder me 19 years ago so that he could not hurt anyone else and to use my voice in telling my story to as many people as I possibly could over the years, in hopes that I may encourage other victims of violent crime to stand up and speak out against criminals.

Today, I can say very proudly that I have accomplished both of these goals, as, today, I received a phone call that an arrest in my case had been made.

And, over the last 19 years, as I have shared my story with others, they have so willingly shared their stories with me.

I hope that my case will remain as a reminder to all victims of violent crime to never give up hope in seeking justice, no matter how long it may take or how hard it may be. With determination and by using your voice to speak out, you're capable of anything. I will continue to reach out to everyone through my Web site,, as I am able. This event in my life 19 years ago was a tragic one.

But, today, 19 years later, I stand here and want you all to know that I am OK. I am not a victim, but instead victorious.

Thank you so much to everyone for your undying support and for keeping me in your thoughts and prayers over the years. Thank you.


LEMON: Well, a week-and-a-half ago, when I asked Jennifer Schuett -- she was on my show here on the weekend -- I asked her if she was afraid to be so visible. She said -- quote -- "No, not at all."

And she told me she knew this day would come and that it would come soon. She is very brave.

Keep up the great work.


KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Everybody is high as a kite. They have been smoking marijuana. They have been doing lines of cocaine. They have been drinking beer, so now might be a good time to leave.


LEMON: If you watch CNN, you know that's CNN's Karl Penhaul. He gets amazing -- and I mean amazing access -- to a Colombian drug gang and he lives to tell about it. You have to see this report in order to believe it.

And, yes, that's it, smelling the cocaine there.

And his great uncles were sent to the electric chair for a murder that they did not commit. That was back in 1913. Now radio show host Tom Joyner, he gets them pardoned. And it just happened a few hours ago. Find out how he did it.


SANCHEZ: All right, so what I am about to show you has probably never been seen on national cable TV and certainly never before this -- this raw. amazing.

It's amazing, it's frightening and it's 100 percent real. Our reporter Karl Penhaul somehow gained the trust of a criminal drug gang in the heart of Colombia's drug production. He sees their guns. He watches them sell their product. And they get high and talk about killing people like you and I talk about lunch.

It's so far beyond the headlines that we could not look away. And we know it will fascinate you, too. I will talk to Karl Penhaul live from Colombia in just a few minutes.

But, first, watch this short clip with me.


PENHAUL (voice-over): The job now: to break down a brick of pure cocaine and cut it with caffeine and dentist's anesthetic. They sell a gram for as little as a dollar, depending on how heavily they cut it.

Business mixes with pleasure. Their biggest pleasure: inhaling the cloud of pulverized cocaine from the liquidizer.

(on-screen): So they have been cutting cocaine now with a fruit juicer for about the last hour. And there's dust going everywhere. Everybody's as high as a kite. they have been smoking marijuana. they have been doing lines of cocaine. they have been drinking beer. So now might be a good time to leave.

(voice-over): Before I go, I'm curious if Chief ever thought of getting out of the drugs, the guns, and the violence.

"CHIEF" (through translator): I dream of sailing away in a sailboat, alone and far away.

PENHAUL: But before he can live that dream, he first has to survive the nightmare of a cocaine war.


LEMON: Nightmare really is an understatement. I want you to stay right there because you will see that full report. And I have questions for Karl Penhaul. he's in Colombia, where the drug wars kill, 12, 15, sometimes 20 people every single day.

Short break. We will be right back.


LEMON: All right, so you know what? You're about to see life lived day to day by people who don't expect to grow old. They belong to gangs that deal drugs. They murder their enemies. And they owe their existence to a trail of white powder that starts in Colombia and leads straight here to the United States.

It is a part of our program that we call "Conexion."

OK, before I go to Karl, can you show that on the -- because a lot of people are asking this question. Let's show this. It says -- this is one is from Nardo58. It said: "Don, did the reporter doing the cocaine story get a buzz just being in the room with all that coke dust floating around?"

And I think that is a really good question, because it is floating around. Karl says there was tons of stuff there. He said, "It's a good time for me to get out of here because they have all been doing cocaine."

Let's bring in Karl now.

Karl, we're about to watch your report where you spent time with the Colombian gangsters there and saw their violent life up close.

Briefly tell us about these young people. And it's true there was a lot of cocaine. I'm sure you didn't get close to it. So, tell us, our viewers, what you experienced when you were there. Was there just the dust everywhere?

PENHAUL: Yes, there was the dust absolutely everywhere. A bit earlier on in the afternoon, there was marijuana smoke everywhere, secondary marijuana smoke. You can't help but get a little bit of a buzz off that, and also with this pulverized cocaine dust that was in the air as they were cutting that with caffeine for street sale.

LEMON: And...

PENHAUL: Again, when I left that place, you know, for about 12 hours after, I felt pretty bad.

LEMON: Yes. And that's just all part, Karl of doing the story. If you want to get inside, you have got to get inside, and that's just all part of it.

Let's look at this story, Karl, and then we will talk to you in just a bit.


PENHAUL: A father shakes his fist at Heaven and asks, why? That's his son in the coffin, blown away by a gang on the payroll of Colombian cocaine capos.

Seventeen-year-old Juan Guillermo Lora was at the school gate, a bullet in the head, another in the neck. His aunt says he wasn't part of any gang.

MARIA DEBORAH OSPINA, AUNT OF MURDER VICTIM (through translator): He wanted to be somebody in life and help his family progress. He wanted to study at university, become a great lawyer, and win justice.

PENHAUL: A couple of cops who escort us into this hillside slum tell a different tale. They say Lora was from a bad family and his brother is doing a prison stretch for murder.

Fallen gang fighter or innocent victim? His aunt blames his murder on turf wars that are once again gripping Medellin.

OSPINA (through translator): I guess he was killed because of the gang wars. You cannot go into certain places and cannot cross certain lines. They hit you where it hurts the most. They kill your family.

PENHAUL: Many of them do appear to be gang members. Some are packing guns.

Mourners hoist the casket, then carry off their dead down narrow alleys.

I head out across to try and figure out why drug violence is spiraling. High up here, in the northeastern commune, there's a statue of the Virgin Mary of Calm (ph). Catholics believe she protects souls in purgatory. Maybe they should have put up an effigy of Cerberus, the hound that guards the gates of hell.

Life here revolves around two things -- guns and drugs.

"CHIEF," MEDELLIN GANG LEADER (through translator): Here it's the rules of the street. The rules don't change. They will always be the rules here or anywhere else.

PENHAUL: He's the gang leader. They call him "Chief." My sources say he's made so many enemies, he can't step outside his patch.

"CHIEF" (through translator): We're all human and we all get afraid. I'm afraid my life will end suddenly before I can do anything to get out of this war.

PENHAUL: "Everything comes to an end," chirp the lyrics of a salsa classic on the radio. But for now, there's work to be done.

Gang members roll marijuana or pose with their firepower. By nightfall, they'll have 1,000 joints to deal on street corners they control.

Colombian authorities say drug peddling in Medellin is worth $6 million a month. Cartel capos believe that's worth fighting for.

The day before we met, Chief buried one of his own.

"CHIEF" (through translator): I couldn't bear to look in the coffin. They killed him downtown. We don't know who did it, but a girlfriend of his took him down there, so the day they brought his body back up here, we killed that crack head bitch.

PENHAUL: That's conversation's cut short with news the drug boss who sponsors this gang has sent a delivery. Lookouts are posted in case police or rivals try to muscle in.

(on camera): So, the gang members are telling us that the kilo of cocaine they've been waiting for all afternoon has now arrived, so we're going to follow them to a different location and see how they cut it.

(voice-over): They have raided mom's kitchen for the tools they need. The job now, to break down a brick of pure cocaine and cut it with caffeine and dentist's anesthetic. They sell a gram for as little as a dollar, depending on how heavily they cut it.

Business mixes with pleasure. Their biggest pleasure, inhaling the cloud of pulverized cocaine from the liquidizer.

(on camera): So, they have been cutting cocaine now with a fruit juicer for about the last hour, and there's dust going everywhere. Everybody's as high as a kite. They've been smoking marijuana, they've been doing lines of cocaine, they have been drinking beer. So, now might be a good time to leave.

(voice-over): Before I go, I'm curious of "Chief" ever thought of getting out of the drugs, the guns and the violence.

"CHIEF" (through translator): I dream of sailing away in a sailboat, alone and far away.

PENHAUL: But before he can live that dream, he first has to survive the nightmare of a cocaine war.


LEMON: Karl, OK. So, talk to me about your experience doing this report.

You were in the room with them, they're getting high, they're snorting cocaine, smoking pot. You were definitely in danger. Were you afraid?

PENHAUL: We had gone there because after living in Colombia for 13 years, although I've lost track of some of the gang members I knew some years ago, because they have just been killed as part of this process of the war, I did know people who knew people. So, the contacts there were good, but, of course, drugs and guns do not mix.

And as the afternoon wore on, as the evening came into play, these guys, as I say there, were as high as kites. You don't know what their next reaction is going to be, because they're in an irrational state of mind by that stage.

If you say too much, if you ask too much, you could have an adverse reaction. It's just not a good scenario to be there, which is why after a certain amount of time, not only did I feel pretty bad from inhaling some of this secondary dust and smoke, but, also, these people were just getting too nervous by the time I have to leave -- Don.

LEMON: I know you said that there were good contacts, but not always do good contacts get you this far. Why did they allow your cameras to go in there? I mean, they must have really trusted you. Why did they allow you to come in?

PENHAUL: There's really no upside for either these drug gangs or anybody in the drug underworld to expose the criminal activities they're getting up to. That's the nature of the business, that's why it's so hard to tell this story. It's a business that operates much better in the shadows than out in the public.

I think the only upside for these drug gangs to tell their tale was to show me the kind of poverty conditions that they lived in. LEMON: Karl...

PENHAUL: And one of their messages, was, yes -- OK.

LEMON: You mentioned the poverty. And right here, this is from Twitter. Nardo58 says, "You know, if cocaine business is such a moneymaker for criminals, why do they all look like they are living in squalor?"

That's a good question, I think. And you touched on it a little bit. Why does it look that way?

PENHAUL: Yes, exactly, because the cocaine business, as you know, is a multibillion-dollar business. But depending where you are in the line, in the line of distribution, depends on how much money you get.

The people who grow the cocoa leaves, the raw product for cocaine, live in almost desperate poverty. And then you get the drug gangs here that are fighting over territory, controlling the routes that the cocaine can be smuggled along. They kind of get handouts from the drug lords themselves.

And it's the drug lords and their intermediaries that are making the big bucks. Where does that money go to? It's capitalism at work. This doesn't get distributed down the line, it gets spent on fast cars, on jewelry, and also the company of some of Colombia's most beautiful women. It doesn't go down to the poorest in that drug chain -- Don.

LEMON: All right.

Karl Penhaul, getting lots of feedback here. I'm even getting e- mails.

Great reporting, Karl. Thank you so much, sir. Stay safe, OK?


TOM JOYNER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Any time that you can repair racism in this country I think is a step forward. And so it really, really feels good.


LEMON: As I was saying, radio talk show host Tom Joyner wins a pardon for two great uncles who were sent to the electric chair. That was back in 1913 for a murder they did not commit. It is an amazing story that he would not have even known about had he not traced his family roots.

You'll want to stick around for this one.


LEMON: Welcome back. Rick is off today. Don Lemon here filling in for him.

I want to take some of your comments here. Let's go to Twitter.

"I'm not sure what I feel about these cocaine dealers. It's a sad situation, that's for sure, for everyone."

Let's move on. That one is a little bit -- Mike in San Diego says, "If all the coke heads in the U.S. saw that last report on that deadly white powder, perhaps they would kick the habit. Probably not." That's from @DonLemonCNN.

Let's go over to Rick Sanchez's page.

Here's what Mom Versus Wild says: "What a nightmare living in a drug-induced euphoria of death."

And then RuggedCwby, a cowboy, I would imagine, says, "With the amount of cocaine cheap, the person in that piece could have been gone a long time ago. They live in crap."

Thank you so much for all of your comments. We're going to have them throughout this broadcast.

Imagine tracing your family roots and learning your great uncles were sent to the electric chair for a murder that they did not commit. It happened to radio host Tom Joyner, and he took action, and he took it all the way to the court. The verdict just came down just a few hours ago.

My conversation with him coming up next.


LEMON: All right. Tom Joyner danced this morning in Columbia, South Carolina. He told me he danced with his wife and his family. He was jubilant, and that was the word he used, "jubilant." That was his word.

He managed to undo an injustice today nearly 100 years overdue. Two men, his great uncles, were convicted and executed in 1915 for a murder they did not commit.

Tom Joyner asked the state to pardon them, to clear their names. Well, today the state said yes.

I called Tom just a short time ago.


JOYNER: Everyone has similar experiences either in their family, or they know somebody in their community. You just don't know how deep it goes. And racism is alive and well in this country, and until we can repair some of the deeds of the past, we can't really look forward to going into the future.

The researchers that we had on this case were very amazed that here was an injustice, but a lot of white people, prominent white people, were behind the Griffin (ph) brothers. And understand, now, this is 1913. There was no CNN, there was no media like we have today.

And so, for -- and this was 1913 and segregated South Carolina. You have so many white people came to their defense and petitioned the governor.

So, there's a lot more -- there's a lot more to this story and I'm going to be -- I'm going to be looking into it.


LEMON: You know, the story behind this is really fascinating. I'm going to put it on our blog, my interview I did with Tom last weekend when he talked about anticipating all of this. And, you know, he didn't know about his great uncles and their case until earlier this year when the PBS show "African-American Lives" shared their research with him. Fascinating.

Well, the White House throws a big party to celebrate Hispanic musical heritage and some of the biggest names in the Latin music industry -- they turn out and you're going to see it. That's next.


LEMON: Music, dancing, a big party at the White House. The White House continued its music series last night.

Take a listen.


LEMON: All right.

They were celebrating Hispanic music at the Hispanic Musical Heritage Festival. Some of the big name participants included Mark Anthony, George Lopez and Gloria Estefan. The entire first family was there and, as you can see, they didn't sit still. They got up and they got down a little as well. And at one point, Malia even played the drums.

The event will be shown tomorrow on PBS. It looks like a whole lot of fun.

And next week, only on CNN, "LATINO IN AMERICA," a comprehensive look on how Latinos are changing America, reshaping politics, business, schools, churches and neighborhoods. October 21st and 22nd, at 9:00 p.m. Eastern. The whole thing will also be simulcast in Spanish on CNN Espanol.

All right. There he is. How are you doing, sir?

ROLAND MARTIN, CNN ANALYST: What happened to the music?

LEMON: What happened to the music as you're dancing...

MARTIN: What happened to the music?

LEMON: Hold your horses, we're going to get back to you.

MARTIN: Man...

LEMON: And we're going to talk to you about this.

MARTIN: This is like a rhythmless nation show. Come on.

LEMON: Can you...

MARTIN: There you go.

LEMON: We're going to talk to you about -- go ahead, Dan.


LEMON: All right. Notice I'm just letting you make a fool of yourself.

MARTIN: First of all, I can dance. You know I have rhythm. You know me.

LEMON: OK. So, listen, we're going to talk about this. It's serious stuff maybe. A white model, Roland, is on the cover of a popular magazine. Actually, the white model is not sporting black face on the cover, she's inside the magazine. Our Tom Joyner wins an important pardon for his great uncles and Michael Steele is pressured to change the name on his blog.

Roland Martin joins the conversation and dances and whatever he's going to do -- next.


LEMON: OK. Roland Martin is back.

Hey, Roland, how are you doing today, sir, besides dancing?

MARTIN: All good.

LEMON: Hey, we've been talking about this stuff. You know, I interviewed a model and an editor from "Jezebel" magazine talking about this black face.

Is it perceived differently? Do you think that people should be offended? Are you offended by it?

MARTIN: Well, they should be offended. I mean, first of all, it all boils down to: why did you do it? I mean, what's the rationale behind it? I mean, were you trying to show a white woman with shoe polish and makeup on...

LEMON: It's France. They are artistic, artistes.

MARTIN: I don't care. What's the -- what's the rationale? I mean, if you took a bunch of white makeup -- a white paint and put it on a black face, I mean, is that person trying to be a mime? What's the point behind it? Everything has context.

LEMON: They did put white paint on the model and -- one model in this series of photographs -- they put white paint on them.

MARTIN: OK. But again though, what's the context?


MARTIN: What's the context?

LEMON: That seems to be the question.

MARTIN: That's what I don't get. And also, also let's not act as if Europe does not have its own history with race. We saw those riots several years ago in terms of African immigrants in, terms of how they were being treated in France as well. And so, you only have one African -- one person of color who actually is a member of the French parliament, same thing in Italy. So, it's not like Europe is somehow not a part of this whole...

LEMON: Immune to all of this.

MARTIN: ... African diaspora and the issues of race and color (ph).

LEMON: But, you know and I know, I mean, folks way back when in the '30s, '40s and '50s, '60s, like James Baldwin and others, what's her name, I can't -- dance with the bananas, someone give her name.

MARTIN: Dorothy Dandridge.



MARTIN: Josephine Baker.

LEMON: Josephine Baker, that's it. So, I had a senior moment here. They all fled to France and to Paris because of what was happening here.


LEMON: They were more accepted, their arts were more accepted.

MARTIN: Right.

LEMON: So, maybe France has a different take on it. I don't know, I mean...

MARTIN: No, I think there's no -- you can be nice about it, Don.


MARTIN: This was a stupid call by the editor, and not understanding what you're doing. And the bottom line is, if you wanted to showcase women of color with this fashion shoot, go hire them.

LEMON: That seems to be the question that everyone I've spoken to is, like, why not hire women of color?

MARTIN: Go hire 'em.

LEMON: So, if I ask you this, if I say, Roland, what up? What do you think?

MARTIN: I would say, "What is wrong with you?" No, I mean, first of all, there's nothing wrong with "what up"? People say that. I mean, I know you're talking about Michael Steele, the head of the RNC.

LEMON: That was Michael Steele's new blog.

MARTIN: Look, here's a guy trying to make the RNC hip, which is real hard to make the RNC hip. I remember being at the Republican National Convention, they only had like four songs on the CD player, like, Kool and The Gang, "Celebration," Earth, Wind and Fire, "September." They had a jazz band at the Republican National Convention. The Democrat National Convention, they had a house band.

So, there's a whole different vibe going on between the DNC and RNC. So, next thing you know, Michael Steele is going to have Jay-Z opening for Sarah Palin.

LEMON: But he got pressure for -- and he had to change it. He actually had to change the name. That's what I was looking for her. It went from "what up" to something about the change or time to change or be the change or something like that. So...


LEMON: What's that all about?

MARTIN: Change, wow. Yes, we can. I mean, look, this is -- here's a guy who is trying to make the party relevant and hip, and so, you have people like, I'm sorry, what up? I mean, come on.

I mean, first of all, the RNC, can you, like, lighten up? Go talk to some of your 18- and 20-year-olds and be a little hipper. But the bottom line is, you're not.

LEMON: All right.

OK. Let's talk about this because this was really -- I don't know if you saw this weekend, you probably out, you have a life, you know, you and your wife and family doing stuff so you didn't see this weekend. I have Tom on. You know, you know Tom and what he's doing.

MARTIN: No. I don't know Tom Joyner. I have a daily segment on the "Tom Joyner Morning Show."

LEMON: That's what I was going to say, I was asking you if you saw the segment, Roland. You're such a smart, you know what...


MARTIN: Of course, I know Tom Joyner.

LEMON: I was asking you if you saw the segment because he was so emotional on this segment, Roland. And it -- I mean, it really touched my heart when he found out and some of the things that he said about it. I don't get to listen to him every morning because I work in the evenings but what do you make of this? I mean, he got these two guys pardoned almost 100 years after that they were wrongly convicted.

MARTIN: Well, of course, when we had that special before, "Black in America 2," he had Skip Gates on with him, he said a person who made a difference in your life. I mean, Tom was not fully aware of his entire background because -- and so Skip Gates brought it to him in terms of this whole DNA movement.

And so, when he began to understand the history, understand the background -- and this is the missing link for so many African- Americans, not being able to connect who you are going back, you know, 50, 60, 70, 80, 100, 150 years, and so, for African-Americans to be able to close that gap. So, for him to learn about this tragic story and here's a guy who says, "Wait a minute, you know, I have 8 million daily listeners, I can do something about this," and it also brings us present day in terms of people who were executed for crimes they didn't commit.


MARTIN: Look what's happening in Texas with the Governor Rick Perry and this guy who was executed. Some say he didn't actually do it.


MARTIN: I mean, that's a real issue there.

LEMON: Hey, Roland, we have a little bit of breaking news, but I got to tell you -- ask you real quick. Have you done it? Did you -- have you gotten your genealogy done?

MARTIN: Yes. Actually, I've traced my DNA on my mom's side back to Sierra Leone, Senegal and Guinea-Bissau.

LEMON: I'm afraid. But I think I'm going to do it.

MARTIN: Why? Why are you afraid?

LEMON: I don't know.

MARTIN: It's DNA. What's wrong?


MARTIN: You're afraid you don't like person. On my dad's side, I had it traced and it actually traced back to Germany.


MARTIN: And so, black people are afraid because -- I actually had a guy who said, a white guy who said, "Man, I'm more black in me than you because he traced his to Africa."

LEMON: We got to move, Roland, but you can look at me and you can see it doesn't go back that far. So, I'm just -- I'm a little bit afraid but I think I'm going to do it talking to Tom.

MARTIN: Don't be afraid. Don't be a wimp.

LEMON: Thank you, Roland Martin.


LEMON: All right. Go dance your Latin, whatever, you're doing the samba.

MARTIN: Put the music back on and I'll do the salsa now. I'm from Houston.

LEMON: All right. See you later. Roland Martin.

Hey, listen, we got some developing news that's happening on Wall Street. For the first time in, what a year, the Dow has closed above 10,000.

Susan Lisovicz joining us from the New York Stock Exchange.

Susan, this is good news.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is good news, and it is one that we have waited for, for a year -- as you said, Don, the Dow last closing above 10,000, October of 2008. Of course, we're about a minute and a half away from the closing bell -- looking good so far.

You know, it illustrates -- this level illustrates how far we've come following the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. I mean, remember earlier this year, in March, Don, the Dow sat at 6,500. That's a gain of 3,500 points in seven months. It's really one of the most remarkable rallies we've ever seen on Wall Street. But we still have a lot of ground to make up because I might add...


LISOVICZ: ... two years ago, it was at 14,000.

LEMON: That's what I was going to ask you. I mean, what does this mean for the average person at home and they are sitting at home and may not have a lot of investments, maybe only their 401(k). Is this -- does this help in terms of confidence that this will -- once the Dow closes above 10,000, does this sort maybe, we're going to keep going in this direction?

LISOVICZ: Well, remember, millions of us are investing. We are investing for our future, for our kids' education, for our dream home. You -- you know, you name it, and the reason why people started investing again was there was a sense that things were getting better. It came in the depths of the bear market in March, that all of a sudden, the news wasn't as bad as it once was, and slowly but surely, the Dow over seven months and the other averages have gained and it's just been a remarkable rally.

And we're stating to hear from Corporate America now saying, "You know what, the third quarter was pretty good. Consumers are buying things. We're making money. We're going to need to see more of it. We have a lot of ground to make up."

LEMON: There's the bell, Susan. It's official.

LISOVICZ: But this is a reflection of that.

LEMON: Yes, it's official.


LEMON: It's official now.

OK. Susan Lisovicz from the New York Stock Exchange -- first time in over a year, the Dow closes above 10,000.

I'm Don Lemon, in for Rick Sanchez. I want to throw it to my friend in Washington, and Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM."