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Biden Versus Cheney; Civilians Killed in Marjah Offensive; Obama's Approval Rating Falls Dramatically; Holder Didn't Expect Backlash on Terror Trial Decision; Tax Season is Coming, Advice for Filers

Aired February 14, 2010 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on CNN: Cheney versus Biden. The current and former vice presidents go at it on national television. Who was right?

And this video just in to CNN tells the story here -- a massive car pile-up on a major highway. We're getting new details in for you.

Plus, CNN exclusive video from the heart of an escalating war in Afghanistan.

Good evening, everyone.

Call it a Sunday showdown -- a face-off of political heavyweights on different morning shows with two very different agendas, Vice President Joe Biden and his predecessor, former Vice President Dick Cheney. They traded jabs over the airwaves today on everything, from the tactics for fighting terrorism to the treatment and trials of terror suspects.

Here's Cheney defending the use of enhanced interrogation techniques and questioning the Obama administration's handling of the Christmas Day terror suspect.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD CHENEY, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I think the professionals need to make that judgment. We've got people in -- we had in our administration. I'm sure there they're still there. Many of them are career personnel who are experts in this subject. And they are the ones that you ought to turn somebody like Abdulmutallab over to, let them be the judge of whether or not he's prepared to cooperate and how they can best achieve his cooperation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: The former vice president on ABC "This Week" this morning. And that was some tough talk. It's just getting started here really.

Our Kate Bolduan is at the White House with more. Hi, Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Don. Well, while not in the same room, the vice presidents definitely sparred today, especially over national security and some of the issues that you mentioned.

First, listen here to former Vice President Dick Cheney. He's really suggesting that the Obama administration is underestimating the threat of al Qaeda. Here he's taking on comments previously made by Vice President Biden on CNN that an attack like 9/11 is unlikely -- another one. Listen here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHENEY: I think in fact the situation with respect to al Qaeda to say that, you know, that was a big attack we had on 9/11, but it's not likely again, I just think that's dead-wrong. I think the biggest strategic threat the United States faces today is the possibility of another 9/11 with a nuclear weapon or a biological agent of some kind and I think al Qaeda is out there even as we meet, trying to figure out how to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Now, Don, Vice President Biden came out swinging against his predecessor on two Sunday morning talk shows. Listen here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSEPH BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't think the vice -- the former Vice President Dick Cheney listens. The president of the United States said in the State of the Union, we're at war with al Qaeda. They are, in fact, not able to do anything remotely like they were in the past. They are on the run.

I don't know where Dick Cheney has been. Look, it's one thing, again, to criticize. It's another thing to sort of rewrite history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And aiming to prove his point almost in rebuttal, Vice President Biden went on to say that the Obama administration, Don, has eliminated a dozen of al Qaeda's top 20 leaders, as well as taken out 100 of their associates. Very, very pointed today, Don.

LEMON: Yes, very pointed. Much of this centered on terrorism and --

BOLDUAN: Yes.

LEMON: -- the Christmas Day bomber played a big role as well. In another heated moment, the two men discussing that. We saw a little bit at the top of the show.

BOLDUAN: Right.

LEMON: Let's listen to more and we'll talk about it, Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS) CHENEY: The think I learned from watching that process unfold, though, was that the administration really wasn't equipped to deal with the aftermath of an attempted attack against the United States, in the sense that they didn't know what to do with the guy.

BIDEN: He's entitled to his own opinions. He's not entitled to rewrite history. He's not entitled to his own facts. The Christmas Day bomber was treated the exact way that he suggested that the shoe bomber was treated -- absolutely the same way.

(END VIDEO CLIPS)

BOLDUAN: Now, if you look at this in a broader context, Don, it was really in a deliberate way by the White House of really putting someone out there to really have a rebuttal out there against Vice President Dick Cheney, who you've talked about and I'm sure you will tonight. He's been a very -- he's been a very high-level, one of probably the highest level critics of the Obama administration so far.

LEMON: Kate, we're going to talk a little bit more about it. So, stand by.

I want to bring in our deputy political director, Paul Steinhauser -- because you know this is going to be the political headline for the next couple days. So, Paul, can you say who won?

PAUL STEINHAUSER, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: You know, listen, I'm not going to say if either the vice president or the former vice president came out a winner here. But what's interesting, Don, is the White House taking former Vice President Cheney serious enough that, first, you had Joe Biden taping "Meet the Press." Then had you the former Vice President Cheney live on "This Week" on ABC. And then the current vice president coming back and rebutting him live on CBS' "Face the Nation."

So, the strategy here by the White House of taking the former vice president is extremely seriously. It's an interesting point here. And as to Joe Biden, that's -- this is the vice president's job, basically to be the bad cop to sometimes the president's good cop. We saw that here today.

LEMON: My next question, most people thought when Barack Obama, then- candidate Obama or nominee Obama, picked Joe Biden, that Joe Biden would be the attack dog, right? And because he was known for that.

So, I'm wondering is this the old Joe Biden that we're used to seeing. Is he now going to be the attack dog? Is this a new strategy that they're -- that they're putting in place here?

STEINHAUSER: Yes. I don't think that strategy ever went away actually. You know, Joe Biden, as we all know, the vice president --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: We didn't hear from him that much though. We didn't hear from him I think for a while. I mean, you know, there they kind of stopped him from talking a little bit. But now, we're appearing to here more. And he seems much more pointed and much stronger in his discussion and defending the policies of this administration.

STEINHAUSER: And I think another side of that as well is that this administration, I think, is realizing when it comes to public opinion, terrorism and fighting terrorists is becoming a little more important than it was about a year ago when the economy dwarfed everything, Don.

LEMON: So then, let's talk about the former vice president now. Then why does the former vice president, Dick Cheney, keep coming out like this? Is it out of step with what past vice presidents have done?

And maybe, you know, this is a better way to put it, it was -- some people say that that administration, the Bush-Cheney administration, was very secretive. And now, all of sudden, this, the former vice president said, hey, listen -- or the vice president now said, hey, listen, you know, Mr. Cheney can't come back and rewrite history.

So I'm wondering, you know, why does Mr. Cheney keep doing this? Is he trying -- is Joe Biden right? Is he trying to rewrite history?

STEINHAUSER: He is definitely trying to protect his -- I think what did he in eight years in the White House as the vice president. And he has been pretty tough on this new administration almost from day one.

The former vice president -- though, this is not unique. Remember, Al Gore, the last vice president, he was quiet for about a year or two after leaving the White House, after losing the election in 2000. But he became a pretty vocal critic of the Bush administration, especially on the Iraq war, among other things.

So, it is not unprecedented to see a vice -- a former vice president take on the current administration, Don.

LEMON: Hey, let's talk, Paul, about where Americans come. The people who are watching us, everyone, where do they come down on all of this?

STEINHAUSER: OK. Two things our most recent polls found. We asked whether this administration, the Obama administration, is doing a good job protecting the U.S. from terrorists. And two out of three people, 2/3 said yes.

So, regardless of what Dick Cheney said today, Americans do think overall -- according to our polls -- that the White House is doing a pretty good job. But, they don't agree with the White House when it comes to trying some of these alleged terrorists in civilian court. We asked about that, and about two out of three said, no, they should be tried in military courts, not civilian courts.

LEMON: Very interesting. We're going to look back and see if there's a difference here between being tried in a military court and a civilian court among previous administrations.

Hey, Paul, thank you very much. We really appreciate it.

STEINHAUSER: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: A dozen innocent civilians killed today in Afghanistan by an American weapon that went astray. A live report is just ahead from our Pentagon correspondent and a military analyst as well.

Also ahead: justice on hold? Bringing the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks to justice is proving much harder than anyone imagined.

We want you to weigh in tonight. Make sure you logon and send us your comments.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We're going to take you to the ground and a developing story in Afghanistan. Exactly what the U.S. military commanders hoped to avoid happened. Wayward rockets killed 12 Afghan civilians.

CNN's Pentagon correspondent Chris Lawrence is in Washington for us tonight.

And, Chris, this is really just the beginning of a massive offensive to rat out the Taliban there, and here we go with some civilian deaths already.

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Don.

Here's what happened. The Marines -- U.S. Marines say they were under direct fire from a compound. They were taking fire from this compound, so they used this high-mobility artillery rocket system -- very sophisticated system to launch two rockets at that compound. Something went wrong. The rockets went about 300 yards off-course. They hit a home and killed those 12 civilians.

They have -- the military has now suspended the use of that rocket system while they try to figure out exactly what went wrong.

LEMON: (AUDIO BREAK) had some really great access there, Chris. We've managed to get some exclusive video. We got some yesterday, as well as today.

But I want to say that you've been on the ground in Afghanistan. You know the circumstances there, as well as does Arturo Munoz. He's there with you.

And, Chris and Arturo -- Mr. Munoz advised, you know, some of the Marines in Helmand. He's also with the CIA for a bit.

So, I have to ask both of you: Is this a stiff Taliban resistance -- is that -- is this really stiff here? Is it worse than in other places, Chris?

LAWRENCE: Yes.

And, Arturo, I think we want -- you know, let's take a look here. You know, we see here that, you know, exactly where the U.S. troops are in terms of here in Afghanistan. We also see where the Taliban influence is, the deep red. But the U.S. military has been emphatic in saying the mission here is not about killing Taliban, it's about protecting the people.

So, does an incident like this with 12 people dead, does it derail this mission before it ever really gets started?

ARTURO MUNOZ, SR. POLITICAL SCIENTIST, RAND CORP.: Oh, I don't think it derails it at all. I mean, you have to take into consideration you're having a battle in a populated area. I mean it's almost inevitable that this kind of accident will happen.

Now, the U.S. military and NATO are very aware that when it does happen, the Taliban make a huge propaganda use of it. So they have taken extraordinary measures to avoid civilian casualties to include announcing their campaign before they did it as one of their measures to minimize civilian casualties.

LAWRENCE: I got another question, too. From what we are hearing from the Marines on the ground here -- and here's Marjah, here's the area that we are talking about here. And what we're hearing is that it is a slow slog through these cities, that they have set a lot of bombs and explosive up ahead of time. The Marines are trying to go door to door.

But because of the rules of engagement, they can't fire unless someone is a threat to them. So, the Taliban could conceivably fire off a shot, put down his weapon, walk outside to another weapons area, pick up another weapon.

How much are these rules of engagement holding back the forces there?

MUNOZ: Well, I -- you know, the counterinsurgency manual, the new counterinsurgency manual that, you know, General Petraeus was involved in writing actually states clearly that if you do counterinsurgency in a more enlightened and sophisticated way, you take greater risks.

So, in answer to your question, I would say, sure, these rules of engagement slow down the U.S. forces. However, I think they do avoid civilian casualties.

So, ultimately, I think it's better to go slower and take the added risks but avoid the political damage and the propaganda damage that you would take if you had many more civilian casualties.

LEMON: And, Chris and Mr. Munoz, we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you. Some very good information.

And as we said earlier, this is just the beginning. CNN will be reporting on this.

Arturo Munoz and our Pentagon correspondent Chris Lawrence -- thank you both.

A blinding snowstorm made for some hazardous driving conditions in the nation's heartland. Dozens of drivers in Kansas involved in a pile-up that shut down an interstate. Amazing pictures, Jacqui Jeras.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A check of your top stories right now.

Astronauts aboard the space shuttle Endeavour will get to spend an extra day in space. NASA's extending the mission so they can do more work on the International Space Station. The shuttle is now scheduled to return February 21 after a two-week mission in space. The announcement came as two astronauts completed a nearly six-hour spacewalk as part of the work expanding the space station.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is calling on Iran to rethink its nuclear policies or risk sanctions. She made the comments today at the World Economic Forum in Qatar and she also updated the delegates on the condition of her husband recovering from surgery to clear a blocked artery in his heart.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: He is in great shape. All is well, or I would not be here this evening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Secretary Clinton also said, forging a peace deal between Palestinians and Israelis is a priority.

I want you to take a look at this amazing. It's out of Wyandotte County. It is in Kansas. Dozens of cars were involved in this multi- car accident on Interstate 70. Blinding snow reportedly caused this pile-up.

And officials say the accident could shut down the interstate for hours. People involved were taken to a central location by school bus to get them out of the cold. No word on any injuries for you.

And something new we have for you tonight. Every Sunday, we are going to preview the big stories, the important stories that you need to know about the week ahead.

First, I want to check in with Chris Friedman. He is a planning editor here at the CNN planning desk.

Tell us what you got for us starting next week, Chris.

CHRIS FRIEDMAN, CNN NATL. DESK PLANNING EDITOR: Thanks, Don.

Well, the first thing we're going to talk about, the story that broke on Friday that will -- that seemingly changing every hour, the Alabama Huntsville shooting suspect. Our CNN's Brooke Baldwin is on her way up to Boston as we speak. She'll be digging on the past shooting incident that took place there in 1986. So, stand by for some developments on that.

Coming up on Thursday, the heavy hitters in the American conservative movement, the CPAC Conference.

(CROSSTALK)

FRIEDMAN: Yes, that's our planning site right there. This gives you a good look at everything that's coming up.

So, you have the heavy hitters of the conservative movement in Washington. Our best -- the best political team on TV will be all over that. And then for something a little bit lighter, I guess the party's been going nonstop since last Sunday with the Saints Super Bowl win.

LEMON: Yes.

FRIEDMAN: Fat Tuesday, Mardi Gras.

LEMON: Fat Tuesday, Mardi Gras.

FRIEDMAN: Right, Don.

LEMON: I wish I was there. I'm sure you do, too. Thank you very much.

FRIEDMAN: My pleasure.

LEMON: It's a look ahead of what's coming up here.

Nationally, Jacqui Jeras, what do you have for weather?

JACQUI JERAS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: We're watching a storm in the nation's midsection, Don. That's what caused that accident in Kansas City that you just saw.

We'll be tracking that storm which is on its way to the southeast, yet again more snow there. Hundreds of flights have already been canceled out of Atlanta. And then that storm is going to be heading up towards D.C. and New York City later this week. So, we'll have all the details on that storm, what you can expect -- coming up.

LEMON: All right, Jacqui, thank you very much.

What's ahead in politics, foreign policy, the economy and entertainment? We've got you covered. Let's start with a preview of the president's agenda for the week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I'm Dan Lothian at the White House.

This week, President Obama has a mix of international and domestic issues on his plate. He'll meet with the Dalai Lama here at the White House, a controversial visit that China has protested.

King Juan Carlos of Spain will also come here to meet with the president. Then, Mr. Obama will visit and tour a jobs training center in the D.C. area before heading to Denver, Colorado, and Las Vegas, Nevada, to meet with voters, business leaders and attend political events.

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I'm Jill Dougherty with what's happening at the State Department this week.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton continues on the road with her trip to Qatar in Saudi Arabia. The highlight of that trip: Sunday's speech to the U.S. Islamic World Forum.

Wednesday, she comes back to Washington and meets with President Barack Obama.

Then Thursday, she sits down with the president of Guatemala.

Friday, a meeting with U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Susan Rice, as the U.S. pushes forward on tougher sanctions against Iran.

POPPY HARLOW, CNNMONEY.COM: I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.

Here are some of the stories we'll be following this week on CNN Money. The markets are closed on Monday for the holiday, but after a wild week on Wall Street, investors are bracing for what's ahead. We'll be keeping a close eye on Toyota after it recalled millions of cars.

And starting on Tuesday, we'll get a host of earnings reports from major corporations, including Kraft and pharmaceutical giant Merck, as well as Wal-Mart and Dell.

And housing and jobs will remain top of mind this week. We'll get new data on home building on Wednesday and weekly jobless claims coming up on Thursday.

That is all ahead.

A.J. HAMMER, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": I'm "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT's" A.J. Hammer.

Expect big news breaking Monday in Hollywood. That's when the official Oscar countdown begins with the annual luncheon for all the Oscar nominees. We're also expecting more big fall-out this week from singer John Mayer's racially-charged comments in a just-released interview. The big question: how badly is this going to hurt his career?

And Friday, one of the most anticipated movies of the year will open, "Shutter Island," Leonardo DiCaprio's latest movie with Oscar-winning director, Martin Scorsese.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: All right. Thank you all.

You know, it's been almost nine years since 9/11. And the U.S. Justice Department is still trying to figure out what to do with the accused mastermind of the attack. Now, the president is involved.

And tonight in Dallas, the NBA all-star game will tip off in front of a record-breaking crowd. Our sports business analyst, Mr. Rick Horrow, on the impact of the big game in Big D.

Plus, we'll talk Olympics as well.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: You know what? It may be the middle of winter, but it is a busy time in the sports world. Super Bowl, Daytona 500, NBA all-star game, and, of course, the Winter Olympics -- all within a couple of weeks of each other.

Our sports guy here, Mr. Rick Horrow, he is in Dallas tonight for the NBA all-star extravaganza, as we say.

So, Rick, I understand there may be a record crowd. Look at the perch you have there, too.

RICK HORROW, CNN SPORTS BUSINESS ANALYST: Hey, this isn't bad, Don. This is huge right here. This is the ticket for the largest attended basketball game in world history. This stadium where the Cowboys play football behind me will expect to hold 90,000, 95,000 people tonight and generate about $150 million of economic impact because of that. It is huge.

LEMON: So, then how do they convert this huge billion dollar Cowboys stadium that you perched, this football stadium, into a basketball arena. Are people, you know, so far away from the court they're going to need binoculars to see?

HORROW: I'm glad you asked that question. The football field is right behind us. You see this visual. But the basketball court is right above my finger and the scoreboard is right up there. That's a 600-ton scoreboard with 30 million light bulbs in it. How would you like to screw all those light bulbs in?

The point is, anywhere in this stadium, there are going to be people that are watching that scoreboard, not necessarily the court below. It's unprecedented.

LEMON: OK. So listen, you know, from here, from Dallas, which got a record snowfall, rarely gets snow, you're traveling to Vancouver which they haven't had a lot of snow. You're going to the Winter Olympics.

How much money are they spending up there?

HORROW: Well, they're spending $5.6 billion. They built a new road that goes from Vancouver to Whistler. They have the convention center expansion, a new light rail line. The infrastructure is a legacy in Vancouver no matter what.

Twelve and a half 2 inches of snow here in Dallas, that's taking some of that, put in my suitcase is going to help (INAUDIBLE)

LEMON: I'm sorry. You said you're putting your suitcase is going to help what?

HORROW: I put the snow in my suitcase. I'm going to bring it up to Whistler, the ski resort up there. See what we can do to solve the snow problem. That's my ingenious solution to this. Weatherman, I'm not.

LEMON: What I was going to say, is the weather cooperating or is it still the best snow -- that best man-made snow ever?

HORROW: Yes. Well, but see the Vancouver Olympic Committee has thought about every contingency. They're going to get by with that. There's a lot of precipitation.

I guess Jacqui Jeras and others can talk about this, but the weather's thrown on its head. Twelve and a half 2 inches down here and no snow up in Vancouver. That should be corrected by the way by the end of the two weeks, I'm told.

LEMON: Hey, listen, our hearts go out to the luger from the former Soviet Republic of Georgia. Have you heard anything about that track? They're saying now that they -- it's safer. They put up a buffer. What are you hearing?

HORROW: I'm hearing they put up the buffer and they've also had many number of runs, practice-wise and competitively. This is now day three. And no major injuries.

There have been crashes, but that's the nature of the sport. And it might be safer. There's a blame-game going on about who did what to whom. But the bottom line is: they did correct a certain problem and that seems to make it safer. But clearly, that is a black mark on the games that they will recover from. But it put a little bit of a damper on the opening ceremonies.

LEMON: Rick Horrow in Dallas -- Rick, I want you to send us some video of you dunking, right? Can you dunk?

HORROW: Yes. Oh, yes, I can absolutely dunk. I'm going down there right now. I'll send that you video. It's like the checks in the mail. Don't wait for it.

LEMON: Thank you, Rick Horrow. Be safe, have fun.

HORROW: All right.

LEMON: Toyota is still paying for its rash of recalls in recent weeks. We'll tell you why this man is bowing to a Toyota customer in Japan.

And we'll talk with our panel of experts about independent voters and why they appear to be defecting from President Obama's camp.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So you may be sitting there going, man! Last week is over. Glad I'm done with that. But Jacqui Jeras, this could be round two for the south. That's the bad news.

JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, it is. But it is a totally different animal this time around, Don.

LEMON: That's good.

JERAS: It is a much -- it is good actually for the real Deep South. This is much more of a northerly tracking storm that we're going to be following. and I think for the most part, the snowfall totals are going to be a little bit lighter. In addition to that, we're likely going to start out with that rain/snow mix, then start to see the changeover.

(WEATHER REPORT)

JERAS: Quick pictures I want to show you real quick out of Pittsburgh, if we can. They've had really heavy snow in the northeast last week. Roofs are still collapsing. It's an ice skating rink, which collapsed while people were inside. Fortunately, everybody was able to get out, but it is just from the weight of that snow. If you get any melting, you get that extra weight on there, and things get weak and start to collapse.

LEMON: Boy, we wish them well. Thank you, Jacqui Jeras. We'll check back with you if we have a second round coming through, albeit smaller and lighter.

President Barack Obama's approval rating among Independents has fallen dramatically in months. A year ago, a CNN poll showed 63 percent approved of the way he was handling his job and 33 percent disapproved. Late last month, only 43 percent approved, 57 percent disapproved.

Want to welcome back our Independent voter panel from last week. Joe Gandelman, is the editor-in-chief of "The Moderate Voice" blog. He joins us from San Diego tonight. Omar Ali is an historian, and Independent voting analyst. He's in Washington. And Nicole Kurokawa is also an Independent voting analyst in Washington tonight.

Thank you very much. Good to see you guys again.

Listen, I'll ask you this, Joe. It is believed Independents really supported the president during then-candidate Obama and helped put him on top. One of the staunchest groups that were in his corner. What's behind this drop in the president's approval?

JOE GANDELMAN, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE MODERATE VOICE BLOG: There is a whole bunch of factors. I think one of the key factors is that job numbers are so bad right now. I think that essentially, at the beginning, when Obama got into office, Obama and the Democrats decided they had three basic goals. One, they were willing to expend political capital. They wanted to enact health care reform. and they wanted to do it in the worst possible way. Well two things happened. They used their political capital and they did it in the worst possible way. Now they're trying to salvage it. I think that this whole spectacle of the bargaining back and forth, which people knew went on in politics anyway, the "Let's Make a Deal" aspect that was really played up by the new media, in particular, which shoved it to the mainstream old media, I think all these factors together brought the numbers down.

LEMON: Nicole, then why is this significant? What does this all mean then if his poll numbers are dropping among Independents? What does this show about the president?

NICOLE KUROKAWA, INDEPENDENT VOTING ANALYST: I mean, think about what brought the president to office in the first place. His message, 18 months ago, was he would reduce spending, he would bring transparency to government, he would bring accountability to government. We haven't seen much of that actually take place. So 2009 was the year of being angry. 2010 is the year of voters at the polls. I think we're going to see a lot of Independents mobilize. We've seen a lot of them through the tea party and through other sources get out and get active. Even Sarah Palin last week encouraged primary challengers who are Republican. It is going to swing both ways, but I think we'll see a lot more activism this year.

Omar, here's the interesting thing. You would think the true definition of an Independent would be someone who doesn't have any axe to grind against a Republican or a Democrat. Right? So it is a good gauge of where the president is doing among people who really don't have an agenda. Is that fair to say?

KUROKAWA: No, I definitely think they have something against the Republicans as well.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I want Omar to answer that.

OMAR ALI, HISTORIAN & INDEPENDENT VOTING ANALYST: Independents definitely have an agenda and that agenda is political reform. To pick up on something about the anger, yes, anger -- people are angry, and anger will come and go. But there is an underlying frustration that the American people are feeling and that's a combination of being angry and not being able to do something about that anger because of the bipartisan structure of our electoral system. And if Americans want to move forward on legislation that's critical, whether it's the economy, whether it's health care, whether it's innovative education, and they keep coming up against this bipartisan gridlock, and that paralysis that's created there, it's unbelievably frustrating. and that anger is going to be expressed in a number of ways. So as we were saying before, President Barack Obama came in as an outsider.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Omar, what is the downside then? What is the downside then for the administration that his numbers are doing this among Independents?

ALI: Well, the downside is that, in some ways, he has to address that. In some ways, from the Independent's perspective, this is an opportunity for President Barack Obama to find out more about what is it that Independents are concerned about, which are issues of opening up the process.

Just to say something very quickly as a historian. See, the parties -- there's nothing in the Constitution about political parties, and yet these two parties have taken over government. It's a structural issue. That's what's at play right now. So if President Obama wants to do something about picking up his numbers, especially about Independents, he has to find out more about what animates Independents.

LEMON: OK.

ALI: And the bottom line for Independents is opening up the process and dealing with the bipartisan and partisan nature of our electoral system.

LEMON: This is my last question to all of you. And really a yes or no answer this morning. If you saw the current president and former vice president sparring on two different shows this morning, does that help or hurt Independents at all? Does it help you decide on anything? Does it change anything for you?

(CROSSTALK)

KUROKAWA: It's just more of the same. We're going to see with the health care summit as well.

LEMON: OK.

Omar?

ALI: I think that the bickering is emblematic of a larger problem, again, which is a structural problem.

OK.

Joe?

GANDELMAN: I agree, it is a structural problem. It's like it's -- you pretty much know what they're going to say before they say it at this point.

Joe, Nicole and Omar, thanks so much. Always good to see you. Hopefully, we'll see you again soon.

KUROKAWA: Thanks.

GANDELMAN: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: It's almost been nine years since 9/11, and the U.S. Justice Department is still trying to figure out what to do with the accused mastermind of the attack. Now, the president has gotten involved in this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: I want to check your top stories right now. You're getting a rare glimpse at a Japanese CEO accepting responsibility for his company in a very personal way. Toyota President Akio Toyoda bows and apologizes to a Prius customer yesterday at a dealership in Japan. The Prius is one of four Toyota vehicles that have been recalled in recent weeks.

General Stanley McChrystal today apologized to Afghan President Hamid Karzai for the accidental killing of 12 Afghan civilians in Helmand Province. Two rockets fired by coalition troops at a Taliban position apparently went astray and hit the civilians. The accident happened as 15,000 U.S., NATO and Afghan forces battle a Taliban stronghold in the town of Marjah.

A top national security advisor to President Obama gave his support today to repeal the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell on gays in the military. Retired Marine Corps. General James Jones told our Candy Crowley he thinks gays can be integrated into the military just as blacks and women have been in the past.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES JONES, RETIRED MARINE CORPS GENERAL: I think times have changed. I think I was very much taken by the -- Admiral Mullen's view that young men and women who wish to serve their country should not have to lie in order to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And former Vice President Dick Cheney, whose daughter is openly gay, weighed in as well today. We'll hear from him next hour.

The trial of accused September 11th mastermind, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. Where will it be held? It is matter of great concern. It is still up in the air.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder announced his plan to bring the terror trial just blocks from Ground Zero --

ERIC HOLDER, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: They will be brought to New York, to New York, to answer for their alleged crimes.

UNIDENTIFIED CNN CORRESPONDENT: He probably never anticipated the backlash.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: The Obama administration's decision to prosecute the mastermind of 9/11, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, and four other co-conspirators in civilian court in New York City makes no sense to most Americans, including me.

UNIDENTIFIED CNN CORRESPONDENT: Senator Lindsey Graham's comments not only reflected Republican concerns, but the swelling outrage from people in Manhattan.

New York leaders were forced to protect their own interests and the people they represent.

DAVID PATERSON, (D), GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK: We still have been unable to rebuild that site. And having those terrorists tried so close to the attack is going to be an encumbrance on all of New Yorkers.

MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, (R), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: It is going to cost an awful lot of money and disturb an awful lot of people. My hope is that the attorney general and the president decide to change their mind.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER, (D), NEW YORK: I've encouraged the administration to find suitable alternatives and they appear to be doing just that. At this point, it's obvious, they cannot have the trials in New York.

UNIDENTIFIED CNN CORRESPONDENT: And perhaps the strongest voices the administration will consider, the people who lost loved ones in the attack. Even they are divided.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By doing this, you are taking his actions out of the realm of being an act of warfare and calling it a crime. This was not a crime. This was far beyond a crime. It's an act of warfare.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I trust my justice system, the Constitution, which has been enforced in the last 20 and 30 years. I want them tried home. My son was murdered here. and I want to see them go to trial here.

UNIDENTIFIED CNN CORRESPONDENT: Now the president, no closer to a solution, terror suspects held in a prison he promised to close, with no place to try them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: I want to bring in Noah Feldman now. He's a Harvard law professor and author of "The Fallen Rise of the Islamic State."

So my question to you is can you explain the difference to our viewers, beyond the politics, how Khalid Shaikh Mohammed being treated differently in New York City, how would he be treated in a trial versus Guantanamo Bay at trial or a military trial?

NOAH FELDMAN, AUTHOR & HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR: The core difference between a military tribunal and a civilian trial is who are the judges. In a military trial, the judges will be military officers, often of pretty high rank. There is a great likelihood of conviction as a result. On top of that, the rules of procedure would not be the same rules that would apply to civilian trials. Sometimes secret evidence could be introduced. And sometimes other evidence that might have been acquired by means that wouldn't be allowed in a civilian trial might make it in. That really matters in a case of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed because of the widespread allegations, widely accepted as true, that he was subjected to a great deal of waterboarding, perhaps more than 100 times. LEMON: Dig down on that a little bit on why it really matters. You said he was subjected to waterboarding, but keep going. What do you mean?

FELDMAN: So as a result in a civilian trial, any evidence that's in any way, shape or form connected to that acquired through the waterboarding is going to be inadmissible, because those procedures obviously are radically outside of the bounds of what our ordinary civilian interrogation would allow or permit. And some people believe they even violated our laws against torture. So nothing that came from that sort of evidence, either from the Mohammed himself or from others, would be admitted.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: And how might it affect the trial?

FELDMAN: It would mean first of all that proof of guilt would have to come from other sources. It probably couldn't have come from any kind of confusion that Mohammed made himself even if he made it prior to the waterboarding. It might be considered tainted, or if he made it afterwards. That would mean evidence has to come from independent sources and that might be very, very difficult to do. It also means that his lawyers, if they so chose and if they were clever, might spend a lot of time at the trial trying to introduce the fact of the waterboarding to muddy the waters and make it hard to believe other evidence against him.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: So in a military tribunal --

FELDMAN: -- might be acquitted.

LEMON: In a military tribunal, this would be allowed into evidence, but also the record would be private? Am I correct? But in a civilian court, is a record, would it be open to the public?

FELDMAN: Well, first of all, a military tribunal doesn't have to be open to the public. There is no guarantee that it would be wholly open to the public. With respect to the evidence, if it were actually acquired through direct coercion, then under the present rules, it probably would not be admitted at trial. But it's not obvious that every element would be excluded. The rules of exclusion would be pretty different.

One of the things about a military tribunal is that the government essentially gets to set the rules. and it can set the rules in such a way as to make it easier to get evidence in and certainly make it much harder for the government to be embarrassed by evidence introduced by the defendant's lawyers.

LEMON: There you go. And that's a concern.

Thank you very much. I learned a lot from this. And I think people at home did as well. Hey, real quickly, I want to talk to you about the Christmas day bomber. A lot has been talked about there about Miranda rights. Right? Were they read to him? They were read to him. How did that change anything in this investigation? Explain that to us. And is he the first one in recent years to have Miranda rights read to him?

FELDMAN: Well, if you think of the people who were arrested within the United States, people who attempted suicide, like Richard Reid the shoe bomber, for example, if they landed in the U.S., they would have had Miranda rights read to them because they would have been arrested by federal marshals and arraigned. So the usual procedures would have applied.

By contrast, most of the people held in Guantanamo were picked up on the battlefield, not by police, not by FBI. They were detained by the military and typically were not read Miranda rights. So the reading of the Miranda rights to the Christmas day bomber or -- as I sometimes think, he might be better called the underwear bomber -- was a result of the fact that he was arrested in the United States. It means that putting him on trial in the U.S. in an ordinary civilian court is very doable and, in fact, the most probable result here. Because in his case, it's not obvious that he has the connection to al Qaeda that will be needed to try him on military grounds.

LEMON: Very good information. Noah Feldman, we really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

FELDMAN: Thank you for having me.

LEMON: If you're a new home buyer, there's good news for you this tax season, because it's coming up. Tax season's coming up. We know it's Valentine's Day, but you better look ahead to April. Our Gerri Willis could help you get a better return. We're going to give you some information on that.

And a dozen innocent civilians killed today in Afghanistan by an American weapon that went astray. Live report from our Pentagon correspondent at the top of the hour.

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LEMON: OK. Tax season coming up. A lot of changes this tax season, including a huge incentive for new home buyers. Our personal finance editor, Gerri Willis, has the details for you.

GERRI WILLIS, PERSONAL FINANCE EDITOR: There was a home buyer tax credit and it was increased last year to 10 percent of the cost of your new house to a maximum of $8,000. And, yes, that is larger than the original tax credit. It's refundable. You get the money even if you don't owe taxes.

Now you need to know about the deadlines. An eligible taxpayer must buy or enter into a binding contract to buy a principle residence on or before April 30th of this year and close by June. This isn't just for new home buyers. Long-term home buyers, buying a principled new residence, can use this credit. There's lots of details. Look those up.

The new law also requires stricter proof of purchase. This is a safeguard against fraud and it requires you to send in a copy of the settlement sheet. You won't be able to file your return electronically. And that, of course, is going to slow down your refund, but $8,000 is worth it.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: I think I'll take it. I think most people will. You know, just for -- if it's going to delay, I'll take $8,000. There are some ways to cash in with some changes around the house as well, Gerri, right?

WILLIS: Let's go green. There are new green tax credits. They're increased for homeowners that make their homes energy efficient. The new law increases the credit to 30 percent of all qualifying improvements and raises the max you can get for improvements to 1,500 bucks. These are improvements made in '09 and 2010. Here's what you can do, add insulation, install energy efficient windows, energy efficient water systems, geothermal pumps. You're going to be able to have a nice, big, fat write-up on your taxes.

LEMON: It does help. I started doing that. I'm at the beginning. It is helping. I haven't gotten to the tax rebate yet. Here's one thing that surprises people. If you gave money to Haiti, you can deduct it for 2009.

WILLIS: Right. Even though it happened this year, right? You can claim donations to provide earthquake relief to Haiti as charitable contributions, provided that these contributions were cash and not property, and you made those contributions by text message, check, credit card or debit card, after January 11th of this year and before March 1st of 2010. They have to be made to a qualified 501c3. And your phone bill, this important, Don, is adequate proof of your text donation. This is such a new thing. A lot of people asking out there, how do I prove I made that donation? Just your phone bill, where it says that's what you did.

LEMON: You have to hit the pound or star or what have you.

Gerri Willis, appreciate it. Thank you.

WILLIS: My pleasure.

LEMON: We have this just in to CNN. We're just getting word of helicopter crash. This is in Arizona. We are being told that three people, including a child, has died when their helicopter crashed about 35 miles north of Phoenix, Arizona. That is being given to us from the Federal Aviation Administration, the FAA. Investigators have yet to determine here the cause of this crash, according to that spokesperson. Here's what the chopper is. It is a Eurocopter EC135. It went down 5:00 p.m. eastern just west of Tonto National Forest in Cave Creek, Arizona, we're being told, and subsequently burst into flames. FAA agents were headed to the scene. The National Transportation Safety Board investigator is scheduled to arrive there Monday. Again, a helicopter crash in Arizona. Three people dead, including a child. CNN, working on all the details for you. We'll update you throughout the broadcast here.

OK. Want to check some of your feedback there as we work on the details of that developing story. A lot of you weighing in. Thank you. You guys really liked the Noah Feldman segment because he gave us information about the difference between a military tribunal and a civilian trial, which I don't know if we have gotten much of. It's been a lot of politics back and forth.

Someone said, "Don, repeat that again, about when the government can set the rules. Military versus regular court as stated by Mr. Feldman."

We'll try to get a portion of that back on the air, at least a portion of it so you can see it.

"Great question to the Independence panel. Let them answer rather than speculate to the whys. Kudos, Don."

"Cheney had his time. Now it's time for him to retire."

Let's see here. "When we move the trials to military, let it be known N.Y. has no backbone."

I don't know why that person is saying that.

"Hi, Don, I think vice presidents are traditionally the political attack dogs. I believe Vice President Biden is playing for of the White House guard dog."

All right, more of your comments coming up. Keep sending them. We'll get them on even if we agree with them or not, even if they're a bit controversial. We like transparency. So thank you so much.

Blinding snow leads to a disaster on an interstate just outside of Kansas City today. Dozens of cars involved in the huge pileup and numerous injuries. Take a look at this video from Wyandotte County, Kansas. Up to 30 cars were involved in this accident in the westbound lanes of Interstate 70. A snow squall reportedly caused the pileup there. Officials say the accident could shut down the interstate for hours. Nearby, another dozen or so cars were involved in a second pileup involving two tractor trailers. There were so many people involved in both accidents that they had to be taken away by school bus to get them out of the cold. No word yet on exactly how many people were hurt. We'll keep checking for you.