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Census Will Impact Congressional Districts; Some High-Paying Jobs Don't Require Degree; Penguins Serve as Ambassadors for SeaWorld
Aired April 01, 2010 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Let's do this. Let's take it to the next level. CNN NEWSROOM continues right now with Ali Velshi.
ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: Tony, don't go too far, because I've got penguins on my show coming up in just a few minutes.
HARRIS: I'm right here.
VELSHI: Real, live penguins.
I'm Ali Velshi. I'm going to be with you for the next two hours today and every weekday. I'm going to take every important topic that we cover and break it down. I'll try and give you a level of detail that will help you make important decisions about your health, your money and today, your morality.
Let's get started. It's a new hour. I've got a new rundown. Here's what I've got on it. We're at a key point in the census process. You might think it's all about numbers and check marks and forms. It's not. The census can directly affect your community and your representation in Congress. We'll check out one community that's getting a census boost. Another that could get a census bust.
Plus, what if I told you that you could make $100,000 a year, managing a supermarket or fixing pipes? No pipe dream. Christine Romans found some higher-paying jobs that do not require a four-year degree, and she'll show them to you.
Also, if I were to ask you if it's right or wrong to poison your best friend, I guess you'd probably say wrong. But what if I told you that putting a high-powered magnet behind your ear might prompt a different answer? What if a magnet could sway your morality? You have got to stick around for this ground-breaking study.
OK. Happy census day. Seriously, happy census day. It's census day today, believe it or not. Over 50 percent of you have already returned your form. But today is just a benchmark. We are at the halfway point of the census. Officials are out and about, spreading the word about why it is important to get that census form in and why the census is so important.
In Washington this morning census director Robert Groves, who we had on here a few months ago, was answering questions about the forms at the iconic Ben's Chili Bowl. President Obama has filled out his form. You can see him doing it right there.
Let's take a look at the numbers. A CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll says that two-thirds of you believe that this year's census is going to be accurate. A majority of you really think the census is useful. Eighty percent of you, in fact, think that the census is useful. Twenty percent of you think it's a waste of money.
But we're already seeing some cities, because of the current economic environment, that will be directly affected by the census. Let's take a look, starting in Provo, Utah. Since the last census, the population of Provo, Utah, has grown -- check this out -- 47 percent. In fact, there was a 7 percent spike in 2006-2007 alone. So when Provo gets its census results in, they will likely receive additional federal funding based on the larger population. It could be $300 million more once the census comes in.
Utah as a whole could gain congressional -- one congressional seat out of the increased numbers for a total of four.
Now let's take a look at the complete opposite of Provo, Utah. Youngstown, Ohio. It's part of the Rust Belt. Youngstown suffers from decades-long population losses because of the dying manufacturing industry, steel and automobiles. And they've lost a lot of plants. So the population since the last census, since 2000, has dropped 7 percent. In 2009 alone, the jobless rate in Youngstown was 14 percent.
Now, Youngstown will likely see a decline in federal funding from the $686 million that they received in 2008. So that's likely to go down because they've got a smaller population. Ohio as a whole could lose two of its 18 seats in Congress because of the number of people who have left the state, largely because of joblessness.
Now to talk more about this, I'm joined by the mayor of Provo, Utah, John Curtis.
Mayor Curtis, thank you for being with us.
MAYOR JOHN CURTIS, PROVO, UTAH: You bet. Nice to be with you today.
VELSHI: So you -- you're very interested in seeing the results of the census, but you have other ways of know that your population has increased fairly dramatically in the last ten years.
CURTIS: No doubt. Provo is growing. There are so many good things happening in Provo. The population growth is just one piece of our whole picture.
VELSHI: I actually -- I showed a figure. You've got about $200 million in federal funding in 2008. What happens, if once the census recognizes the increase that you've seen in Provo, what's likely to happen that's beneficial to Provo and to Utah?
CURTIS: Well, it triggers all sorts of good things, actually, for us, not only on a federal level but a county level and a state level. Our sales tax revenue in our state is distributed in a large proportion by our population. In the county, county dollars are distributed. And of course, at the federal level, getting that census right and the right numbers means that we get the right dollars into our city.
VELSHI: Now, what -- you, as I say, you've already known this was happening. So there's not some sort of plan that has to go into the fact. I mean, is there anything on the census that is likely to surprise you that's going to cause you to spend money differently?
CURTIS: No surprises. As a matter of fact, for us, it's more the rest of the world realizing how great Provo is and understanding why so many people are coming to Provo.
VELSHI: What -- what are the things that are bringing people to Provo? We sort of know why they leave other places. Obviously, they don't have, you know, job opportunities. What's happening in Provo that's making it exciting for people?
CURTIS: It's unbelievable. Provo is consistently rated in the top for quality of life, health and well being, education, entrepreneurial spirit. We've been rated No. 1 for volunteerism and for private donations. We have low taxes, low crime rates. It's a great place to live.
VELSHI: Now, we were talking about how the census may result in Utah getting an extra congressional seat. Is that likely to be in the district in which you're in?
CURTIS: You know, the exact details aren't known. But clearly, an additional congressional seat benefits all of Utah, not just Provo. And many things are associated with that, in addition to dollars.
VELSHI: Mayor, good to talk to you. Stay with us. We're going to come back after a break and continue our conversation.
CURTIS: You bet.
VELSHI: John Curtis, the mayor of Provo, Utah, joining us from Provo. My conversation with him continues on the other side.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: We're talking about why you should fill out your census form, because your community might gain or lose. But even if you're going to lose because your population has dropped, it's important that you're counted so that it doesn't show that it's dropped more than it has.
One place that's gaining is Provo, Utah. John Curtis is the mayor. He's seen a population boom in the area.
Mayor, one of the issues that we've seen with places that have population booms. It's great. The housing prices go up. There are jobs. But then you get a problem where you've got very, very low unemployment. I know, to most people watching us they're saying, how is that a problem to have low unemployment? But Iowa has faced this. Iowa City has faced this. Do you have enough jobs coming to your area to maintain all of those people who are moving there?
CURTIS: We do. That's one of the great things about Provo. Our business and economic development is very strong. It's not only a great place to live; it's a great place to do business. And our businesses love settling here.
VELSHI: Well, Mayor, we -- we wish you the best of luck. It's great to have a story of a town that's doing well. We'll follow it very closely. We hope the census brings you good things.
CURTIS: Thank you. Come see us in Provo.
VELSHI: We'd like that. Mayor -- Mayor John Curtis of Provo, Utah.
All right. You have heard the conventional wisdom that you need a four-year college degree to get any kind of well-paying job. In fact, people with four-year degrees have a much lower unemployment rate than those who don't.
But, Christine has uncovered some untruths about that. You can still get good pay with less education. Christine Romans breaks it down for us on the other side. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Sometimes the main event becomes the opening act, and that's the case today with my co-host Christine Romans, because after we finish with Christine, we have penguins in the house that we're going to show you.
So Christine, you're the warm-up here, but you are the best warm- up and main act that we have. You've got something very interesting. You and I always talk about the fact that -- let's take the unemployment rate nationally, about 9.7 percent. If you have -- if you take the population with a college education, it is half of that. So it seems to be that a college education is your ticket to employment and success.
You've scratched out some jobs that do not need a four-year degree and yet pay well.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes. That's right. And look, I don't -- I want to be clear, look, it is -- you're much more likely to have a lower unemployment rate and a better paycheck if you have a college degree. So I'm not saying don't go to college. So Moms and dads and grandmas, grandpas, don't get mad at me here.
I want to look at, first, the more education you have, the more you're paid. The median earnings in this country right now means half the people make more than that; half the people make less. No high school, I mean, you've really -- you've got to have a high school education. You've got to get a bachelor's degree if you can. And people with advanced degrees basically are fully employed right now and make $68,000 a year.
There are, though, fantastic job opportunities and services in the trades for people who are experienced. They stick on the job. They do a lot of on-the-job training. They even do continuing education.
Look at the median pay, Ali, for a construction superintendent or a supermarket store manager or a police manager, somebody who's managing detectives. That's all on-the-job training in that law enforcement field.
And then look at the top pay. Ali, this is off of Payscale.com. And they ran these numbers for me. And I asked about what are the top-paying jobs? These are about the top ten 10 percent. If you've got the hustle and the ambition and the smarts and not the four-year degree, you can -- a master plumber, that's a ladder job. You know, we call those ladder jobs, meaning you...
VELSHI: Right. You start somewhere and you go higher.
ROMANS: And you can even own your own business in this way.
VELSHI: Right.
ROMANS: Health-care jobs we talked about this.
VELSHI: Yes, we talked about these yesterday. So that's a whole second category. Show us those. Four-year degree -- no need for a four-year degree for these health-care jobs.
ROMANS: Now, many of these you're going to need at least an associate's degree. You will need two years. And then you're going to need more continuing education, especially in nursing and the like.
VELSHI: Yes.
ROMANS: But look at medical equipment repairer. I'm told that there are shortages of people who are trained and equipped and have kind of that mechanical ability that you can translate from manufacturing...
VELSHI: Right.
ROMANS: ... into this new field. And you can make up to $95,000 a year.
One of the things about some of these interesting medical jobs is that, in some cases, hospitals are so hungry for them, or hospital groups are so hungry for them...
VELSHI: Yes.
ROMANS: ... that they're helping you pay for the advanced training and the like.
So there are, for hustle and experience -- I want to be clear, you've got to have experience on the job, and you've got to have hustle and be the -- you know, among the smartest ones in there doing it, but there are good jobs out there without the burden of the four- year degree and all of the student loans that goes with it.
VELSHI: OK. And you know, we're always working on this stuff. But you're working on jobs particularly this week, because tomorrow we're going to get this jobs report for March, the monthly jobs report we get. And there are some people hoping that we will see some real growth numbers tomorrow. We'll see for the first time since this recession began, real jobs created.
ROMANS: We will. Most likely, that's what economists are saying. We had a couple other -- other surveys this week, Ali, that showed job losses again. There were two particular surveys that kind of cast out on just how strong this Friday's report will be.
We're waiting for that turning point. But you and I both know, and I've done this math a hundred times. Right? If we started creating 300,000 jobs every month, Ali...
VELSHI: Yes.
ROMANS: ... it should take us 56 months just to get back to where we started before the recession.
VELSHI: Right. Yes.
ROMANS: Fifty-six months. So when we get that good jobs report, I want to be clear, we've got a lot of work to do.
And I think the administration is going to have to be very careful about the tone that they set.
VELSHI: Right.
ROMANS: They want to -- they want to encourage people and encourage confidence because the economy might be turning in the jobs market...
VELSHI: Yes.
ROMANS: ... so they can't be too optimistic. A lot of people are still hurting.
VELSHI: Yes, that's a good point. Christine, good to see you. Thanks so much. Stay around and watch those penguins. They are coming up right after this.
Christine and I, you can watch us on "YOUR $$$$$" every weekend, Saturdays at 1 p.m. Eastern, Sundays at 3 p.m. Eastern.
All right. Let me check out our top stories that we're following for you here at CNN.
In Wichita, Kansas, sentencing today for anti-abortion activist convicted of killing a Wichita doctor. Scott Roeder is facing life in prison. His victim, Dr. George Tiller, ran a clinic that performed late-term abortions. In court today, Tiller's lawyer called the crime domestic terrorism.
On the Indian Ocean, five suspected pirates are in the hands of American authorities after they attacked a Navy warship. The crew of the USS Nicholas returned fire and sank a small boat. They also managed to take over what the Navy is calling a pirate mothership.
And in California, the last car is rolling off the line today at the Nummi plant in Fremont. Nummi, which stands for New United Motor Manufacturing Incorporated, was a joint venture between Toyota and General Motors. At least 4,700 people are losing their jobs there.
All right. I've been talking to you all about it. Check out these little guys. Look at that. They aren't sporting any vests, but they are nature's sharpest-dressed animals. They're paying a visit to our weather center. I'll go over and talk to those two penguins right after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: You're looking at Pete the penguin, and Pete is looking up, because I'm holding Pete's life mate, Penny penguin, in my hands. You see this, Mark? Let's take a look at Penny, Penny the penguin. All right, there's Penny. Is this the cutest thing?
I have all sorts of people -- senior people here at CNN asking me exactly why it is we have penguins here at CNN. And I'm -- for that answer I'm going to send it over to Chad.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: It's all about SeaWorld. It's all about all the different things that SeaWorld brings to America.
VELSHI: Right.
MYERS: Obviously, a lot of kids going on spring break, that kind of stuff. But you know, you think of SeaWorld as the whales and all that and Shamu. But there are so many, so many other species out there.
VELSHI: I keep thinking they're going to fly off, but they don't really fly, do they?
LAURA DRAY, AVICULTURIST, SEAWORLD: No, they don't fly.
MYERS: You are underdressed again, sir.
VELSHI: Yes, you -- I must say, you dressed for the occasion. You match the penguins. Now, tell us. Laura is from SeaWorld. Tell us about these penguins. Why are they here? And what are the particular type of penguin.
DRAY: Sure. These are Magellanic penguins, a temperate species from South America.
VELSHI: OK. So they're not the really cold ones. DRAY: They're not the really cold ones. And we're going to just set her next to her buddy here. And being that they're a temperate species, they're able to travel. So they're able to be animal ambassadors for our park at SeaWorld...
VELSHI: Yes.
DRAY: ... and they're able to just promote the park and let people know that we do have marine mammals, but we also have penguins and many other bird species and mammal species.
VELSHI: Now, these two are life mates.
MYERS: They are.
DRAY: They are.
VELSHI: And this is -- this is what happens with these particular penguins?
DRAY: Yes, it can. And they also are very nest-site specific, so they'll come back to the same burrow year after year.
MYERS: Let's show that. I have this. I just want to put it. Because people think of penguins being in Antarctica only.
VELSHI: Right, right.
MYERS: But I'm telling you, these are -- they are not from this cold climate.
VELSHI: OK.
MYERS: They are not in any danger of the ice shelf flowing off and moving away. They are kind of a temperate climate -- you said you keep them at about 60 degrees.
DRAY: We do. We keep it around 60 degrees Fahrenheit. And if they're in this period, they actually can reach temperatures up to about 80 degrees Fahrenheit.
MYERS: And they love the cold water still.
DRAY: They do.
MYERS: This is still cold water.
DRAY: It is cold water. And that actually helps cool them down if they get too warm.
VELSHI: They are not endangered, these penguins?
DRAY: No, their numbers are considered common. But we do consider them to be protected.
VELSHI: OK. DRAY: Over-fishing is one of the reasons that penguin populations have decreased. Also, oil spills for the African penguin.
VELSHI: Right, yes. Sure.
DRAY: And then, believe it or not, because they do live in areas where normal human population is, feral dogs and cats can prey on them.
VELSHI: I guess so. What's characteristic about them? What do we not know about penguins that we should know about them?
DRAY: They can have about 70 feathers per square inch.
MYERS: Isn't that amazing.
DRAY: For this particular species, the Magellanic, they can have feathers that will disappear around their bill and around their eyes to help keep their temperatures down a little bit cooler. It will help keep them cool.
And this particular species is really wonderful, because at SeaWorld we will do traveling with them. And they also meet our guests. At SeaWorld we really try and get the animals to be up close and personal with our guests for a little bit of education purposes and conservation purposes.
VELSHI: That's Penny just taking a minute there?
DRAY: Yes, she's just laying down, nice and comfortable.
MYERS: Did you know they have no bladders?
VELSHI: I did not know that.
MYERS: In case birds have to fly away, as I was learning five minutes ago, they are allowed to release their heavy weight at any time. And penguins do the same thing.
DRAY: And...
VELSHI: Hey!
DRAY: Right on cue.
MYERS: Right on cue. Like they were listening to you, Chad. Pete decided that he wanted to give us a graphic illustration of what Chad was talking about. And -- and that would be a wrap in TV terms.
MYERS: And we're really glad you weren't holding him.
VELSHI: Penny and Pete, thank you so much for being with us.
MYERS: Thank you so much.
VELSHI: They are ultimately very, very cute. Laura, thank you so much for being was.
And Chad, you know, why don't we kick it off and tell people what the weather is going to be, other than the penguin weather?
MYERS: Well, you know, we talk about the lack of habitat or penguins, if we really do lose a lot of the ice cap, what are these guys going to do in Antarctica?
VELSHI: Yes.
MYERS: These guys aren't really -- they don't care.
VELSHI: Yes.
MYERS: They like -- they don't have ice. They're not standing on the ice, anyways. And so that's the only thing we wanted to talk about today. So thank you so much for coming today.
We do have the warm-up that we've all been waiting for.
VELSHI: Ah. Look at that.
MYERS: There -- there's the red. You stay right there because you match the map right here.
DRAY: OK.
MYERS: We haven't seen this kind of red across the map.
VELSHI: No.
MYERS: And now that -- now that you've come from Florida, you've warmed everything up. Look at Chicago today...
VELSHI: Wow.
MYERS: Seventy-six degrees today. There will be a threat here of -- I would say some fire danger across parts of Texas and then snow in the mountains. But, hey...
VELSHI: I'll take it.
MYERS: Look at that.
VELSHI: Even I can't probably -- even I can't ruin the weather. I'm not taking any bad weather with me. All right. That's fantastic, Chad.
MYERS: All right, guys.
VELSHI: And thanks, penguins, for being with us. In fact, let's let the penguins take us to the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Catholic cardinals are rushing to Pope Benedict's defense, raising holy hell over media coverage of a church sex scanned. Their main target, "The New York Times."
Last week the "Times" reported on some documents showing how an accused molester priest in Milwaukee was dealt with. Basically, he wasn't, after he wrote a sad letter to the Vatican rules watchdog, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. That cardinal and this pope, same guy.
Over the weekend, the New York archbishop Comparing Pope Benedict's suffering to Jesus's. Clergy all over the world have been calling news conferences to compliment their kindly boss, but now the gloves are off. A counteroffensive is on, with the Vatican's current watchdog and Pope Benedict's good friend telling the "Times" where to go.
Here is part of a huge, 2,400-word statement that was just posted on the Vatican Web site. It says -- this is from Cardinal William Levada. He's the prefect of the Vatican Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith.
He says, "I'm not proud of America's newspaper of record, 'The New York Times,' as a paragon of fairness. Both last week's article and editorial are deficient by any reasonable standards of fairness the Americans have every right and expectation to find in their major media reporting. I ask 'The Times' to reconsider its attack mode about Pope Benedict XVI and give the world a more balanced view of the leader it can and should count on."
OK, "The New York Times" seeing no need for penance here. A spokeswoman for the newspaper defended its coverage and pointed out that no one has cast doubt on the actual facts that the "Times" reported.
So we wanted to bring in Howard Kurtz. He's a media reporter for the "Washington Post" and -- and my colleague at CNN.
Howard, good to see you.
HOWARD KURTZ, HOST, "RELIABLE SOURCES": Hey, Ali.
VELSHI: Does this matter? Does this -- does this battle between the Vatican and "The New York Times" matter? Is this really about whether "The New York Times" has its facts right and, if it does, it doesn't need to respond any further to this?
KURTZ: I think it matters a great deal, because there is something about this one case that "The Times" has uncovered, the case in Milwaukee with this priest, Father Murphy, accused of having molested as many as 200 deaf boys, that has caught the imagination of the world. I mean, after all, the whole church scandal has been around now for years. But there's something about this story.
And I agree with "The New York Times": I don't see a single fact here...
VELSHI: Yes.
KURTZ: ... that's been contradicted. So I do think there's a reason that the Vatican is in damage-control mode.
VELSHI: But this is -- there's something nuanced -- there's something nuanced about this, right? Howard, isn't there, where facts may be correct, but the Vatican seems to be suggesting that there is -- there is a nuance coming from the "Times." They're calling it an attack mode. How do you deal with that?
KURTZ: Well, I went back and read -- reread the stories very carefully. And the "Times" doesn't say that the pope, then-Cardinal Ratzinger, knew about this, but there is a record showing that he received two letters from the archbishop in Milwaukee, asking what to do about this Aaron Preisly (ph). Father Murphy himself (INAUDIBLE).
Of course, the priest was never punished. That's the thing. These should be criminal offenses rather than being covered up by the Church. And so you know, we've seen this with American politicians for a long time.
VELSHI: Yes.
KURTZ: When the facts aren't on your side, attack the media, say it's an old story, be dismissive, praise your guy. And I think we need to be careful about not rushing to judgment in the case of the pope, but I don't think that the Vatican has really succeeded in knocking down this story.
VELSHI: OK. When we come back from a break, Howard is going to stay there and he's going to tell us about how cases like this have been handled in the past. What does it usually lead to when it becomes an all-out battle between both sides? We'll pick this discussion up right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Howard Kurtz is joining me on the story of the Vatican, trying to spin "The New York Times" reporting on Pope Benedict. Howard is a media reporter with "The Washington Post" and acolumnist.
Howard, this happens all the time. It happens to us. People will say you are misrepresenting a story, sometimes it's a large organization that will say that. What usually happens? What's going on in "The New York Times" newsroom now as a result of this response from the Vatican?
KURTZ: What "The New York Times" is doing and I think in this age of instant communication it would be better if the times put someone on your program and others like it, is standing by the story.
And you know, we went through phase one of this, Ali, almost a decade ago now, when "The Boston Globe" uncovered a series of priest abuse scandals in New England region and then spread across the country. And archbishops ended up resigning because they could not defend the fact that priests found to have done this were transferred to other parishes where they were free to prey on other boys.
But in this case it's a pope. A pope hasn't resigned, what, for centuries. So, no one knows what could happen next because it seems so unprecedented.
VELSHI: What happens when you're "The New York Times" and you're not -- you're concerned about the implication that someone is saying you're biased or that you're in attack mode? Do they have discussions about how they might deal with that or do you just not deal with it by saying the facts are out there and they speak for themselves and no one has disputed the facts?
KURTZ: Well, The Times went back and did a follow-up story that ran yesterday that went over the time line here and went over some of the disputed points and corrected one date they got wrong. And that's important for them to do. And if there are other errors in judgment, you know, The Times has to be transparent about that.
But let's make a here difference between -- separation between the news coverage, which is what broke this story, and "The New York Times" editorials and a Maureen Dowd column lambasting the Church and Bill Donahue of The Catholic League for appearing to blame the victims for not complaining sooner when some of them say they tried to complain, nobody listened. That's a different part, that's the opinion part, obviously, of the newspaper.
VELSHI: Sure. We're talking about the editorial part here.
Howard, what is the best way in which newspapers and news organizations filter this kind of information? As I say, it happens all the time. All sorts of people who accuse newspapers not just of factual inaccuracies, which The Times seems to be handling well, but of some sort of a growing biased, let's say. What's the structure to deal with that sort of thing in news organizations?
KURTZ: Well, big papers like "The New York Times" have ombudsmen who feel they've been wronged or unfairly accused, can complain to. They should write letters to the editor. They should be open to telling the other side. I'm not suggesting "The New York Times" has not been.
At the same time, you know, we have -- it is interesting to see if Vatican adopt these sort of modern American-style spin control techniques when, you know, they can issue all the statements they want. The fact is, a lot of these priests were not punished for behavior that is not only morally reprehensible but should be criminal. And no amount of press release attacks is going to change that fact.
VELSHI: Is going to deal with the facts. And other media organizations have now picked up on a lot of that reporting originally done by "The New York Times." Interesting conversation --
KURTZ: Because so much of this is a local story. What happened in your local parish, and I think it's incumbent on news organizations not to let this story drop.
VELSHI: Very good. Always a pleasure to see you, Howard. Come back and talk to us a little more often. Howard Kurtz of "The Washington Post," media reporter and columnist. All right. Getting a check on the top stories we're following here at CNN right now.
In Georgia, four members of an alleged assisted suicide ring are pleading not guilty to charges that they helped a man with cancer kill himself. The suspects all part of a group called the Final Exit Network. They were indicted last month on several charges from offering suicide help to breaking antiracketeering laws.
The mayor of a town in southwest Illinois has been shot and killed. Police -- Washington Park police say 52-year-old John Thornton was shot twice in the chest in his car early this morning. Police suspect he was driving around to check on his town after working an overnight shift on a second job when the killer fired. Our affiliate KMOV says one person is custody and police are looking for another person.
Four days to go until the launch of the space shuttle Discovery and the seven-member crew has arrived at the Kennedy Space Center, ahead of the Monday liftoff. The astronauts head to the international space station on a 13-day mission. This is one of only four remaining blastoffs for NASA's shuttle program.
Warping your sense of morality with a high-powered magnet? It is not an evil plot that has hatched by some super villain. It is a study from a team of M.I.T. tesearchers who say they have the power to tinker with your moral compass. And I'll be talking to one of them after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Brandon Flannery is a young man who lives in Philadelphia. You may see some of yourself in him. A hardworking guy who lost his job and then almost lost his home, except for a special program in Philadelphia that forces banks to sit down with people who are about to lose their home to foreclosure. Here's Brendan's story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VELSHI (voice-over): This is Brendan Flannery's haven. He bought the house in 2001. It's main draw? The big yard for his daughter, Tierna (ph), to play in. Brendan is a proud homeowner, making improvements even though he could lose the house.
BRENDAN FLANNERY, HOMEOWNER: Well, I'm still working right now. Yes, I'm still working on the house, trying to, you know, make improvements on it. It is my home.
VELSHI: He said his world started crumbling with his divorce in late 2007. Shortly after that, he took out a loan to work on the house. And right after that loan came through -
FLANNERY: I lost my job. It was - the timing really sucked. You know, boy the job market is, it is a lot harder to find a job than I was thinking it was going to be.
VELSHI (on camera): You've been working?
FLANNERY: I've been working as a temporary employee. I have different assignments here and there, pretty much for the past year and a half.
VELSHI (voice-over): Working at temporary jobs, he fell behind on his mortgage payment. His lender, Bank of America, initiated foreclosure proceedings on the house but the city where Flannery lives, Philadelphia, threw him a life line.
This is the city's mortgage foreclosure diversion program. The first of its kind and it is fast becoming a model for other cities. It not your typical court hearing. Every Thursday, homeowners, their lender's attorneys and a judge gather in room 676.
JUDGE ANNETTE RIZZO, COURT OF COMMON PLEAS: No residential, owner occupied property can go to sharp sale without coming through this program.
VELSHI: Judge Annette Rizzo established this program. She said Philadelphia was facing a massive foreclosure crisis. 10,000 cases in 2008 alone. In this courtroom, the banks through their attorneys have to come face to face with homeowners and try to work out a deal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm going to turn this in.
VELSHI: Homeowners are assigned a housing counselor to mediate conversations with lenders and if they need one, a free attorney. Since the program started in 2008, city officials say about 5,500 homeowners have gone through the conference. Almost 2,000 homes have been saved. 1,100 couldn't be saved and have gone sheriff's sale.
RIZZO: It forces the dialogue. It forces the homeowner to bring all their paperwork and also to connect with a lender attorney who can infiltrate and get through that black abyss to get to the person of authority to get the deal done.
VELSHI: By the time Flannery arrived here, he was desperate and frustrated. At the suggestion of his lender, Bank of America he had tried to save his home through the New Federal Home Affordable Modification Program, which worked out a schedule of payments but Flannery says he found himself tangled up in a morass of red tape, lost documents that he was told were received and miscommunications with the bank. Bottom line, when he arrived here last December, his home was still in foreclosure despite the fact that he says he made three months of payments on time as he was required to do.
(on camera): What's your hope?
FLANNERY: My hope is that, I mean, this works out. That they actually, you know, I don't lose my house.
(voice-over): This courtroom may be Flannery's last best hope. He was assigned to housing councilor Pamela Kennebrew.
PAMELA KENNEBREW, HOUSING COUNCILOR: I consulted with the attorney for his mortgage company and they agreed to have him come back on January 21st when his permanent documents, loan (ph) documents should be in.
FLANNERY: She's kind of, I guess, to make sure they do their job.
KENNEBREW: It's a good case. He has the means. He just needs to have the opportunity to get back on track.
VELSHI: We went back to Philly in January for Flannery's follow- up hearing. At 2:00 p.m. the day before, Kennebrew got an unexpected e-mail from Bank of America's lawyer.
KENNEBREW: This is stuff we provided before. They requested the beginning of the month, they requested a letter from his former employer. They never said anything about needing updated anything. This is ridiculous. It's so annoying. VELSHI: The next day, Flannery took the additional items to court. Kennebrew spoke to the Bank of America attorney, David Fein, to make sure all the paperwork was in order.
KENNEBRW: Could you just check with your client and make sure that they have the repayment they need?
DAVID FEIN, LENDER ATTORNEY: Yes, I will.
KENNEBREW: All right.
VELSHI: Fein wouldn't talk about Flannery' case or even as Bank of America's lawyer. But speaking as an attorney who's been through this process --
FEIN: I think the best part of the program is it gets both sides to the table. Our clients understand a little bit more where the homeowner is coming from. It's a lot easier to do it when you're in the same room than, you know, back and forth over the phone or by fax or e-mail.
KENNEBREW: You did ask David a question whether or not your house was going to go to sheriff's sale. And what did he say?
FLANNERY: He said it wasn't going to.
KENNEBREW: Yes. You're sort of in a cocoon of protection, all right. And you're in the program and nothing can happen while you're still in the program.
VELSHI: But a week later, one more anxious moment. After first acknowledging receipt of his January payment, Bank of America wrote Flannery that the payment was missing and he could be kicked out of the government program. It turned out it was a mistake. The bank called and apologized.
(on camera): Brendan Flannery has the Philadelphia foreclosure court to help him but most Americans aren't that lucky. In fact, only about 12.5 percent of those people who have applied under the federal program to prevent foreclosure have received a new mortgage. Bank of America has not responded to our requests for an on-camera interview about Brendan's situation or the Philadelphia program.
(voice-over): On February 4th, Bank of America called with some good news. Flannery would get a new loan with more manageable payments. Signing those papers means a fresh start for this homeowner.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELSHI: I don't know who is happier, Brendan Flannery or me after we've been working on this for this for so long. In that time, I've received so many e-mails and phone calls from people in this same situation. They try and talk to their bank but they can't get to somebody that will give them straight answers. They get caught up in the red tape.
It would be better for the banks to understand that it's good for the economy to not have foreclosures that you don't need to have. And it's just better for humanity to be able sit with these people and understand what they're going through. If they want to try and save their house, give them an opportunity to do that. I'll be talking more about this during my XYZ at the end of the show.
All right. Warping our sense of morality where a high-powered magnet. This is not an evil plot hashed by some super-villain. It's a study from a team of MIT tesearchers who say they have the power to tinker your moral compass. And I'm going to talk to the one you're seeing right there after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Right versus wrong. Moral versus immoral. Most of us think we're pretty good at weighing the good and bad and making the moral or correct decision. But M.I.T says they can tinker with your moral compass using a powerful magnet pointed right near your right ear.
Keep in mind this isn't your typical magnet. You can't turn it on your husband or wife. You can't make them evil or good by something you pluck off the fridge. Liane Young is a researcher at the department of brain and cognitive sciences at M.I.T live from Cambridge, Massachusetts.
Liane, thank you for joining us. I found this study fascinating. Basically, it starts with the fact that morality is not some sort of ethereal characteristic or some part of your soul. You say it's governed by some part of your brain.
LIANE YOUNG, M.I.T. RESEARCHER: That's right. That's exactly what we found. We found out morality is rooted in the brain. And in particular, in a part of the brain that is right above and behind the right ear. Part of the brain -- uh-huh?
VELSHI: By applying magnets to that part of the brain, you can change the way we perceive things as being moral or immoral?
YOUNG: Right. So, what we found was that this part of the brain seems to help us reason about other people's beliefs, desires, and intentions when we're evaluating their behavior. And so it seems when we're you disrupt activity in this particular brain region, you also end up disrupting this particular aspect of moral judgment.
VELSHI: How interesting. All right, let's just give some examples to give life to this.
Let's go back to 2007. There was a cheerleader who was reportedly texting while driving when her SUV slammed into a tractor trailer, and that killed her and five other teens. Now, tell me about how your -- what you're talking about would affect our judgment of that.
YOUNG: Right. So, there you have a case where there happens to be a mismatch between the girl's intentions and the outcomes of her actions. And so, there she had presumably benign intentions. She was innocent insofar as he didn't mean to hurt anybody, but she ended up causing a lot of harm. And when there's a mismatch between intentions and outcomes, we can figure out the role of both intentions and outcomes and how we judge the behavior.
VELSHI: Which means some people say she should not have been texting and that's fair enough, but she certainly was not intending for people to have lost their lives, so we have some sympathy for her.
YOUNG: Exactly. Whether we judge her as a bad person with malicious intentions depends on whether or not she meant to do it, and this part of the brain helps us figure out that even though she caused harm, she didn't mean to do it. And therefore, we'll let her off the hook a little bit as far as her moral character is concerned.
VELSHI: Now, put a magnet to the brain of the observer of this situation, and tell me what changes.
YOUNG: Right. So, for that particular case, when you disrupt activity to this particular brain region, we see that people's moral judgments tend to go with the outcome information than the intention information. So, in that particular case, the moral judgment may appear a bit harsher because actual harm occurred, even though there was no harmful intent.
VELSHI: So, it sort of reverses the way we look at, the way we reason the moral compass.
YOUNG: Right. Right. So, I should say it doesn't completely reverse people's moral judgment, but it certainly introduces a significant bias away from intention information and more toward the outcome information.
VELSHI: OK. What a great explanation. I actually want to take a quick break and come back with an example that is sort of the opposite. Someone with bad intentions who didn't actually succeed in doing harm. How does our mind process that, and how does our mind process that with a magnet? Liane is going to join us at the other side of this break for that conversation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) VELSHI: I was just telling you about the part of the brain that's affected by the magnet, according to the study, by M.I.T researchers. It's up here. So, I guess this is your ear, around here, over to the right and the back of your brain. That's about as far as I can delve into science.
So, I'm going to bring Liane Young back into the conversation. She's one of the researchers. Liane, you were talking about an example -- we talked about this teenager texting and how we might have sympathy or judge her not to be morally bad because she -- the outcome was worse than her intent.
Let's talk about this man who allegedly tried to blow up an airliner on the way into Detroit on Christmas Day, the underwear bomber we call him. Certainly had the means and the intent to get it done, and it didn't end up hurting anyone. Tell me about how this research lets us judge that.
YOUNG: Right. So, that's actually the kind of case where we saw the most striking affect of transcranial magnetic stimulation. So, it seemed, again, when we disrupt this part of the brain, that people went more with the outcome than the intention.
So, for that particular case, the man had clearly quite a harmful intention to do harm, but didn't end up succeeding in causing any harm at all except for scaring a lot of people. And typically when we read about that story, we would judge the man as being morally bad, as doing something that's clearly morally forbidden. But when we disrupt activity, again, in this brain region, our subjects tended to go more with outcome and judge that as more morally permissible than we otherwise would.
VELSHI: How interesting. So, because he didn't have the negative effect he intended, we don't see him as morally bad. Sort of turns things upside down, turns them on their head. What's the implication of this research that you've done?
TOUNG: Well, I think there are implications on a number of levels. First of all, it seems that morality, again, moral judgments that we make, are rooted in the brain and that there may be separate systems for how we process information about an agent's intentions as opposed to outcomes. And it also seems we can selectively target each of these systems and selectively impair the systems and then see a real change in people's moral judgments and decisions about other people's behavior.
VELSHI: Generally speaking, though, and I'm asking, I suppose, for moral judgement here -- are our unaffected morals before this magnet is applied more sound than the ones that we have after we've inverted or played with them a little bit?
YOUNG: Well, I think that's a tricky question, and one that maybe I'll leave up to philosophers and to legal scholars.
But it certainly seems to be that mature moral judgments that healthy adults make depend a lot on intention information. We care a lot about what people are thinking and intending and believing at the time that they're acting. And this matters a lot to us when we are thinking about who to be friends with and who to reward and punish and who do we want to associate with when we're judging their behavior.
VELSHI: Is there practical application for this so far?
YOUNG: Well, there are other clinical uses for TMS, and, of course, here we use TMS as an experimental tool. But I think as far as the science of morality goes, it's a sort of proof of concept where we can use this technology to then study the role of different brain regions for how we make different kinds of moral decisions. So, I think that's where we're going to go from here.
VELSHI: All right. Well, A, I'm truly fascinated by this, but, B, you've done such a great job of explaining it. I know you guys are -- you are those M.I.T researchers in the department of brain and cognitive sciences. As smart as they get, but you've really made this accessible for us, so thanks so much for doing that.
YOUNG: Thank you so much for having me.
VELSHI: All right. Leanne Young is a researcher at M.I.T's department of brain and cognitive sciences. Wow. My head's spinning with that one, but that was interesting.
