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25 Dead in Mining Disaster; Oil and Stocks Up
Aired April 06, 2010 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: It is flat-out go time. CNN NEWSROOM continues right now with Ali Velshi.
ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: Tony, thanks very much.
I'm Ali Velshi. I'll be with you for the next two hours. And for those two hours, every weekday, I'm going to take the issues that we are reporting on, and we're going to break it down for you. I'm going to try and give you a level of detail that's going to help you make important decisions about where you travel, how you spend, what you put out on the Internet.
Let's get started. Big story. It's happened again. Death in an American coal mine. At least 25 miners are dead in West Virginia. This is the deadliest mining disaster in the United States in 25 years. Could it have been prevented? And is our continued dependence on coal for cheap electricity partly to blame?
Plus, President Obama takes us -- or he takes a sharp turn on nuclear defense. Limiting America's use of nukes if the U.S. is attacked. Does this make the country safer or more vulnerable to attack? I'll ask our guests, both with two very different opinions.
And growing up in coal country. I'll talk with author Homer Hickman. He was born and raised in Coalwood, West Virginia. His book about coal country was made into the film "October Sky." You don't want to miss a word of what he has to say about the life of coal miners and the latest deadly mine accident.
All right. It's the deadliest U.S. mining disaster in 25 years, as I just told you. At least 25 miners are dead. Four miners are still accounted for. And that's where the concentration is now.
Let me tell you what happened. At 4:30 p.m. yesterday, an explosion happened at Massey Energy's Upper Big Branch Mine in Whitesville, West Virginia. It's about 30 miles south of Charleston, West Virginia. The explosion took place during a shift change.
Now, at 2 a.m. this morning officials came out and said that efforts to reach the four miners still unaccounted for have been halted. The amount of methane gas and carbon monoxide inside the mine makes it a safety risk for crews to proceed.
Now, this is what those people who are working on the rescue effort have to do. Here's a bulldozer. It's a very rudimentary map. But here's the mountain. The mine is underneath here. There aren't roads along here, so the bulldozer has got a clear pass for people and equipment to get through, roughly atop where they think those four miners may be trapped. And then they've got to ventilate that methane out of the -- out of the shaft and provide oxygen.
This is probably going to take two days. They may not be able to drill the first hole until Wednesday night.
Meanwhile, the other side of the story, and to many of the more important side of the story, the families. John Roberts spoke with some of them earlier.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE MCKENNEY, DAUGHTER OF MISSING MINER: We want to know -- excuse me -- why we have not been contacted. No one from Massey has called my mother or any of us children or his mother. He still has a mother that is home grieving. We don't know where my dad's body is at. We want some answers, and we want them today. We want answers. We're very upset.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: Understandably. Massey Energy, which owns the mine says their, quote, "top priority is the safety of the miners and their families," unquote.
Now a little bit about Massey Energy. They've operate 44 underground mines, underground and surface mines. They control about 2.2 billion tons of coal reserves in the United States.
Now, questions have been raised about this particular mine's safety record. Last year the mine had more than 50 unwarrantable failure violations. These are fairly serious violations. Some of those cited were problems with escape routes for miners and air quality ventilation.
Brooke Baldwin is now in Marsh Fork, West Virginia, very close to where the mine is and where the reporters are located. She's been following this story.
Brooke, you've arrived there just recently now. What's your sense of it? There are 25 miners who have died. Four are still unaccounted for. And now the slow process begins. This is always the tough waiting period as they try and find those four miners.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly, Ali. I think you did an excellent point, which is the fact that this is sort of a two- prong issue right now. Issue No. 1, we just heard from one of the women, one of the family members, who she's saying, "I want to know about my loved ones."
You mentioned, you did the breakdown of the numbers. Twenty- five, we know for sure, are dead. Seventeen -- rather, seven has been ID'ed. Eighteen others are still in that mine. And so these family members, who have been holed up in this elementary school, have no idea if their loved one is one of the dead, one of the 18, or possibly -- possibly one of the four miners who's still missing. In fact, a lot of people are frustrated, of course, as we heard, with Massey Energy.
But interestingly, as I just pulled into town about ten minutes ago we ran into a gas station, and I met a woman who is a widow who lost her husband seven months ago in a mine in this same neck of the woods. She told me, through tears, defending Massey Energy saying, "Look, Massey took care of me. Massey will take care of these families, no matter the outcome."
The other issue, the bulldozer. I just spoke with Ron Wooten, Ali. And he is the West Virginia director of miners' health, safety and training. So here's the deal. They have this bulldozer. And the mountain is massive here in Raleigh County. And it's behind me, and about eight miles away is where that explosion happened yesterday afternoon.
So they have officially now taken that bulldozer up this mountain, through the trees and bulldozed this path.
Step No. 2. They have to take this drill. You mentioned 1,200 feet. It's a massive task. Ron Wooten told me it could take as many as two days, hopefully less, to get that drill to bear these holes deep beneath this rock surface to get down to what they're hoping is the fifth and final rescue chamber.
The hope -- again, hope seems to be the key word here in West Virginia today -- the hope is that possibly one, two, three or four of those missing miners are somewhere in this rescue chamber area.
And if I can just to explain to you, how it was explained to me is, basically, these miners can go along into these safe rooms, these safe chambers. You enter into a door. You purge the air. You enter into another door. The air is purged. And you're in, essentially, this metal cavity. And in that metal cavity there is food, there is water and there is supposedly enough oxygen, Ali, to last four days.
VELSHI: OK.
B. BALDWIN: So hopefully, once they drill these holes, ventilate the methane, spread around the coal dust, hopefully, they will find possibly more miners.
VELSHI: Yes. Right and you had to -- you had to insert hope there a lot, but the realities, if these four miners did survive that explosion and know how to get to these chambers, or one is accessible to them, then if they do take two days to drill, it's entirely possible that they could find them.
I think Brooke is having trouble hearing from me. So we'll just check that out. Brooke Baldwin on this story. We'll get back to her in just a few minutes.
This is a very, very serious accident. As we said, it's the worst mining accident in the United States in 25 years. I want to show you, I want to bring you back. You will remember some of them because some of the bad ones have been very, very recently.
Why in 2010 are we still having the type of accidents that seem like the signed of thing that you would have had early in the 20th Century? I'm going to tell you about mining accidents and their history in this country when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Mining is tough, demanding and dangerous. CNN's Tom Foreman shows us some of the inherent risks involved with something called longwall mining, the method apparently being utilized at the Upper Big Branch Mine in Raleigh County, West Virginia.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is a type of mining that was actually pioneered in England several hundred years ago but has really caught on in the past 30 years here because of new technology, primarily because mine owners have believed that this new technology might allow them to automate further, which would reduce the risk to miners and produce more coal.
So let's take a little section of the land here. If we were to cut part of this out just like that, and we were able to move this aside and say this is what it looks like underneath. This is from YouTube. A fellow put together a demonstration of what happened with longwall mining.
You may notice here that this is a seam of coal. You can see the little rooms cut in on the sides over here. This is the beginning of longwall mining. You cut off an area like this. You create a field. And this may be enormous. It's, like, 800 feet across here, can be as much as a mile or more long this way.
And then this is what happens. They start cutting away at the face of that. It's about eight feet tall. They cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. You can see a tremendous amount of coal would come out of it cutting it this way.
But I do want to point out that this video is a little bit deceptive, because what you don't see here is, as they're cutting all that coal out, you're not creating a big giant room here. What you're doing is you're allowing it to all collapse in behind you as you cut. So you're actually filling in all of this area with the mountainside, collapsing behind you. And the actual working area is actually only about 15 feet or so from the face right up in here.
So this is the area we're looking at when we're focusing on this idea of longwall mining.
I'm going to move this one aside, because I want you to look now a little bit closer of what this actually looks like. This is the machine that does it. It's a little hard to see here. This is from the government. But it's a video they had online. You can see this is the type of cutter that moves along that face, cutting at that face of coal. Here's the cutter over here. Here are the workers over here.
Now, I want to stop this for a moment. You see the big wheel turning there? That may be cutting 3 1/2 feet of coal at a time deep into the walls. You can see a tremendous amount coming off.
This over here are shields that are put in. They're hydraulically supported. There may be 100 of these in a row to give these workers and these machines a way to move back and forth across that face. You can see the shield comes up here and over the top. Tremendously powerful.
These shields could support the weight of an entire locomotive and all the cars with it, up to 600, 800 tons at a time of weight on the top. But again, only about 15 feet of space here.
Here's the other important part here I really want you to think about as you go through here, Anderson. As we roll through, you have all this space here. That grinding on the surface up front produces an enormous amount of coal dust. That's what you're seeing right there. And that's the issue of ventilation here.
What are the dangers? If you have this kind of operation going on, on the face of coal, you have this issue of coal dust building up. That's a potential threat, because it's enormously explosive. You also have the threat of methane building up, if it's not vented enough. Enormously explosive. And because of all the weight here and the width of this, you always have the danger of some kind of structural collapse.
Again, many people believe this is less likely to produce a structural collapse than the other method of cutting out little rooms and leaving pillars. But nonetheless, when you put all these together, this is the danger.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELSHI: Good explanation as to what is going on there in that type of mining and how they have to attempt the rescue that is underway right now. Brooke Baldwin on the scene taking in -- keeping an eye on how that rescue is proceeding.
Now, last year was the safest year on record for the U.S. mining industry: only 18 deaths. Only 18 deaths.
Here's a map of some of the worst mining accidents in the past 30 years. Now, not including yesterday's explosion, 99 miners have been killed because of mine accidents. Yesterday's explosion of the Upper Big Branch Mine, which was there, is the deadliest in the past 25 years.
Now, prior to that, the most serious one before that was a fire that killed -- that trapped and killed 27 people at the Wilberg Mine in Orangeville, Utah. It was later found that that explosion was caused by a faulty, unattended air compressor. You'll also most likely remember the news coverage of the Sago Mine blast. That was in Tallmansville, West Virginia, in January of 2006. That blast trapped 13 miners. Only one of them survived. And it was caused by a methane explosion, which Tom Foreman was just talking about.
Most recently you will recall the collapse of the Crandall Canyon Mine, also in Utah, Huntington, Utah. That was in August of 2007. It trapped six miners. None of them survived. And three rescue workers who were trying to attempt -- were attempting a rescue were killed, as well. The search for six miners was called off after 25 days.
We're going to bring you more on the mining explosion in West Virginia throughout the show. But we're going to bring you some updates on other things that are going on, as well.
One of the things you'll notice from time to time on the bottom of the screen: stocks, above 11,000. Oil hitting an 18-month high. A gallon of gas continues to cost more at the pump. All of these are signs that an economy is picking up steam. Well, our guests are going to break down the numbers and ask -- answer your questions about the economy when we come back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: There are basically three things that are going to make you feel better about yourself financially. One is the value of your property going up, if you own property. The second one is the value of your investments going up, if you have investments, and many of you do through your 401(k) or IRA. And of course, a third and most important is the value of your wage going up. And really, you need unemployment to be low; you need there to be fewer jobs -- or fewer people for more jobs in order for that to happen.
But there are a lot of indicators out there that things are starting to get better with the economy, including the stock market. Take a look at that: close to 11,000. When we were at the peak in October of 2007, it was above 14,000. Went down into the sixes.
Let's talk about whether these are all signs that the economy is coming back and what you should do about it.
I want to join -- I want to talk to you -- I want to talk with Sean Baldwin. He's the chairman of Capital Management Group, joining us from Chicago. Steven Leeb is the chairman of Leeb Capital Management. Both of these guys very involved with money. Steven has written several books on oil, as well.
And that's the interesting story right now, Steven. Oil trading above $85 a barrel, when it was in the 30s during the recession that we've just come through.
STEVEN LEEB, CHAIRMAN, LEEB CAPITAL MANAGEMENT: Yes. It is an amazing story, Ali. And it's not just oil. It's also copper; it's also aluminum; it's also the entire commodity complex. And I think this is a real strong message to America, that we're not the ones that are driving commodity prices anymore. In fact, if you look, you mentioned October '07. Oil, copper, and aluminum are exactly where they were in October '07. In other words, they've lost no ground, despite the fact the Dow is down maybe 20 percent. We've lost 7 million jobs, I think, or 6 million jobs in this economy.
Oil basically has gone up four-fold, despite the fact that Americans are consuming today exactly what they were back in year 2000. It's a new world, and it's a frightening world if we don't address it. This world is being driven by massive, and I mean massive, demand for commodities from the developing world and, in particular, China.
VELSHI: All right, Sean, taking that into account, our economy here in the United States may be recovering more slowly than people would like. They'd like house prices to go up perhaps faster so they can sell a house or they can -- they can do something with that. We'd like certain things. We'd like unemployment to be lower.
But what Steven is talking about is a world that still has increasing demand for all sorts of things. How does -- how do our viewers capitalize on this?
SEAN BALDWIN, CHAIRMAN, CAPITAL MANAGEMENT GROUP: Two ways. One, even though the oil is increasing, he said something very key here. China is a tremendous -- has a tremendous demand for oil. China also holds a tremendous amount of U.S. debt. That is going to -- they're going to continue to exacerbate that problem.
If we're looking at the Dow, in terms of the growth, the growth is going to continue forward. Essentially, what's been driving the Dow is that money managers (ph) have been piling in (ph), and a number of mechanisms that guys use to shorten the market before have been removed. The shorting law -- the shorting laws have been repealed for the uptick in terms of CBS's. That's been stopped. And there have been extensive regulation of hedge funds. This is going to continue to drive the Dow.
Normally, when you look at the oil, oil and buying yields being up and the S&P continuing to go up, usually are contradictory. That's not the case in this particular instance, because there's $7.6 trillion worth of institutional money which will continue to drive the Dow up.
VELSHI: All right, Steven, do you agree that the Dow continues to go up along with oil?
LEEB: I think that for a while that's certainly true, Ali. But we're going to reach a point where, you know, you have to remember, oil, copper, aluminum, all of these commodities are going up.
And this is just a tax on the U.S. economy. It's -- these commodities are not going up because all of a sudden our economy is super strong. I agree with Sean. It is getting a little bit better. But certainly nothing to the extent that would justify these rapid increases in commodities.
And therefore, we're facing -- we're going to continue to face greater and greater head winds in the form of commodities.
Again, I know I'm repeating myself. I've said this before. But we so desperately need a massive, massive program to create green jobs. I mean, China is getting so far ahead of us in this area that it really, I mean, costs me sleep at night.
VELSHI: Well, I know that you, Steven, think that that's a very interesting area of investment.
Sean, do you agree? Or let me just ask it to you this way. For my viewers out there, clearly, you don't think they should just throw all their money broadly into the stock market. What should they be looking at their 401(k)s or IRA's for investment purposes right now?
S. BALDWIN: Well, first of all, he made a good point. You know, there were $70 billion of new money, institutional money that went into commodities. And UBS just released a report when they said there will be another $70 billion. It's going to expand. It's rapidly becoming a wider -- wider asset class. Guys should look for indexes where they can invest into commodities.
Second, though, in terms of this rally, if we want to look at it on a medium-term basis, Dow -- there's no technical resistance for Dow 11,000. As you said before, the Dow has gotten as high as 14,000. Broadly based, you're going to find two other things that drive this market.
One is going to be that there -- the corporations now are very lean. They're lean. They've got lots of money. They're going to make very focused acquisitions for things to accelerate their marketshare.
The second part is going to be, is that the IPO catalog is so backlogged. So what's going to happen is these corporations with non- core businesses, they're going to send them off in IPOs, and they're going to issue secondaries.
The institutional money managers who are involved in buying stocks now in the market are going to continue that buying trend, because they're basically augmenting their bets. They're going to have the second half and then go into these other issues, which is going to basically translate into small and mid-cap growth. That growth is going to continue to keep the market throughout the end of the year high.
I personally think that oil can get as high -- I wrote my column last October that oil might get as high as $95.
VELSHI: Wow.
S. BALDWIN: Some people might disagree with that. But the thing is, is that you cannot look from a U.S. focus. The growth is international. The demand from China and the emerging markets is far greater than we've anticipated.
VELSHI: You're both agreed on that -- you're agreed on that point. Sean Baldwin, chairman of Capital Management Group, and Steven Leeb of Leeb Capital Management, thanks for joining us, guys. We'll talk to you again soon.
You can watch, by the way, "YOUR $$$$$" Saturdays at 1 p.m. Eastern and Sundays at 3 p.m. Eastern with my co-host Christine Romans and me.
Let me give you a check on the top stories we're working on.
Three accused bullies will be arraigned in Massachusetts in less than an hour on charges stemming from the suicide of their classmate. But don't expect the suspects to show up in court. Their lawyers are going to appear on their behalf. A total of nine teens are facing charges ranging from civil rights violations to statutory rape in the death of Phoebe Prince.
The federal government wants to make Toyota pay for its safety problems. The price tag for the civil fine: a record $16.4 million. Now, the carmaker must decide whether it will accept the fine, which could be cast as an admission of wrongdoing, or fight the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, at the risk of more bad publicity.
An election day in the U.K. will be one month from today. British Prime Minister Gordon Brown has now confirmed a May 6 vote, triggering a fierce political battle. The economy, spending cuts and the U.K.'s national deficit are likely to dominate the debate. And Brown himself is facing a tough election battle, having replaced the popular Tony Blair in 2007.
Well, they're damp; they're dark; they're often deadly. Coal mines present tons of different dangers. Dr. Sanjay Gupta is in West Virginia. We're going to talk to him about the dangers of coal mining when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Well, the Mine Safety and Health Administration Web site doesn't mince words. Quote, "Since the earliest days of mining, the job of digging coal and other useful materials out of the earth has been considered one of the world's most dangerous occupations," end quote.
The deadliest year ever for American coal miners was back in 1907, when we lost 3,242 people. Thank goodness we've come a long way since then.
The preliminary number for coal-mine deaths last year was 18. Sadly, we've already surpassed that this year.
A dramatic decline, cold comfort to those 18 families who lost miners last year and the families of the miners we just lost at Upper Big Branch in West Virginia. Tragedies like this make headlines. What doesn't is the day-to- day ways that mining can be hazardous your health. The ways that mining can slowly kill you.
Black lung, for instance, sounds just like what it is. It's a disease that blackens your lungs. It makes you cough. It steals your breath. It's incurable, and it is caused by coal dust. This is what it looks like. Black lung or coal miners' pneumoconiosis has been killing more than 100 West Virginians every year, and it accounts for the bulk of illnesses and injuries reported to MSHA. That's the health and safety organization for mines.
Joint and muscle problems is the next most common complaint. There's a lot of lifting and backbreaking work in mining. After that, hearing loss and other unspecified diseases. The bottom line is this is a dirty, dangerous and often deadly job.
Joining us now from Marsh Fork, West Virginia, to talk a little more about this is our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
Sanjay, when a mine -- when there is an explosion or a collapse or miners are trapped -- as we've just learned, this is a hazardous profession at the best of times. And in the worst of times, you can lose your life on the job.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there's no question, Ali. Some of the things you were mentioning are good reminders of just how -- what day-to-day life is like in the mines. We drove here not that long ago, reminded what's it like to be in a mining community. So many people suffering from some of the problems you just mentioned.
But when you're dealing with a situation that's happened over the last day or so, you know, from a safety perspective, and from a rescue perspective, you're dealing with lots of different moving parts, Ali, as I'm sure you've been hearing. Obviously, sort of the primary possible injuries of a mine explosion. You have lots of moving parts within the mine itself, rock, debris. And then you have the concern about the build-up of those volatile gasses. Obviously, a huge concern here. But even without an explosion, these gasses can be a real problem. They can cause people to lose consciousness or, if not that badly, they can cause them to exercise poor judgment. Talking about gasses like methane, carbon monoxide.
Finally, Ali, where people are focusing their attention now, the rescue efforts, that and in and of itself is a tough problem. I know people have been talking about the time fine of events recently.
VELSHI: Yes.
GUPTA: The idea that you're going into a mine with lots of potential volatile gasses, trying to make literally second-by-second decisions, how much of an emphasis are you going to put on the rescuer's safety versus the trying to actually perform a rescue operation. These are the decisions that are happening around here. I know Brooke Bolduan was just talking about the bulldozing in hills to try and drill holes into the ground. Think about that. It's an amazing process and effort that's under way right now.
VELSHI: Yes, in 2007, we did see six miners died and another three miners -- three rescue workers died in that attempt. Tom Foreman showed us a very interesting story about how these rescues take place and the dangers, including the coal dust and the methane and the structural collapse that exist when they've got to rescue people. This becomes a race against time on one front, Sanjay, but this is -- I guess, always -- I guess this is always the case when there's a rescue.
You covered so many of these types of things, whether it's earthquake or hurricanes. There's always a weight given to the rush to get people out versus the safety of the rescuers. It's always hard to figure that one out.
GUPTA: It really is. Some of the things that you're dealing with, as far as to the rescuers, are a bit nebulous. Meaning again, you talked about the exposure to some of the volatile gasses and what they can do. At a certain percentage, they may not have that much of an impact. If you increase that percentage even slightly, besides the potential risk of making those gasses volatile, they can have more immediate effects on the body.
Again, someone who's trying to exercise judgments, trying to decide how they're going to proceed in terms of a rescue effort, if all of a sudden their judgment is impaired by carbon monoxide or methane or the coal dust itself, that can be a real problem.
You know, I covered Sago, Ali, as you know.
VELSHI: Yes.
GUPTA: We talked a lot about Randy McCloy afterward and the impact those gasses had on his body. He was alive and they were able to get him out and to fresh air, but the impact of those gasses is really significant in a short amount of time. They talk about the refuge chambers, trying to get people into a box, air lock it, get all the poisonous or toxic gasses out, and provide fresh air, but, of course, you can't get there, none of that matters.
VELSHI: Right. All right, Sanjay, thanks very much. You'll be on through the course of the day bringing us up to speed on the rescue efforts and the condition of those miners underground if they're alive.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta in West Virginia.
All right. When we come back, I'm going to talk about something entirely different. The Obama administration has announced big changes in U.S. policy on using nuclear weapons. Is it going to make the country safer or more prone to attack? We'll hear both sides when I come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Just two days before President Obama signed the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty with Russia, the administration is changing its policy on when America would use nuclear weapons.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates announced the new policy about half an hour ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT GATES, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The U.S. pledges not to use or threaten to use nuclear weapons against it. If any state eligible for this assurance were to use chemical or biological weapons against the United States or its allies or partners, it would face the prospect of a devastating conventional military response.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: A devastating conventional military response -- what exactly does that mean? More than 180 countries have signed the nuclear nonproliferation treaty. Five are declared nuclear states -- the U.S., Britain, France, Russia, China. The U.S. is promising not to use nuclear weapons against nonnuclear countries on the list as long as they comply with the treaty. So that leaves out North Korea, which has renounced the treaty. It also leaves out Iran, accused by the U.S. of violating the treaty. Three nuclear powers have never signed the treaty, India, Pakistan and Israel.
Now, as Defense Secretary Gates pointed out, the U.S. still reserves the right to respond to any attack from any country using conventional weapons. One other thing the new policy says, the U.S. will not develop any new nuclear weapons. It says life extension programs for current weapons will only use nuclear components based on previously tested designs and will not support new military missions or provide for new military capabilities.
All right. I want to introduce a couple guests. Barry Blechman is with the Stimson Center in Washington. And James Carafano is with the Heritage Foundation, to discuss the value of this.
I'll start with you, Barry. what is the point of this announcement by the defense secretary and the administration?
BARRY BLECHMAN, STIMSON CENTER: Well, the president is fulfilling the commitment he made a year ago to narrow the roles of nuclear weapons and reduce their number. And he's doing it while, at the same time, taking steps to maintain the effectiveness of the weapons that remain in our arsenal arsenal. So I think he's just threaded the needle just about correctly.
VELSHI: James, what do you think?
JAMES CARAFANO, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Well, I don't know if he's necessarily made a commitment to decrease reliance on nuclear weapons. It's a very convoluted declaratory policy. Matter of fact, it even includes an exception for occasions when the president might use weapons for a state that used biological or chemical weapons.
It's not really sure -- I'm not sure why we did this. We had very simple declaratory policy that was actually established under President Carter, who was a Democratic president, and it was used by President Clinton, who was a Democratic president. He used it in the post-Cold War era. It really seems like a policy designed more to influence arms control critics than it is to send clear signals to our adversaries, the people we're trying to prevent from getting nuclear weapons, and to our allies, the people we're trying to reassure that we're going to defend them. So I'm not actually sure it's a step forward.
VELSHI: All right. I want -- what I really want to know, and I this our viewers want to know, is does this make us safer or more vulnerable to attack? I'm going to ask you both to think about that.
We're going to take a quick break and then I'll get your answers.
We'll have more discussion with these two gentlemen when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: All right. I want to rejoin the conversation with Barry Blechman, of the Stimson Center, and James Carafano, of the Heritage Foundation. They're both in Washington.
What we want to know is, does this newest announcement by the defense secretary and the administration make us safer, and if so, how, or does it put us at greatest risk, and if so, how.
Barry, let's start with you.
BLECHMAN: It certainly makes us safer because it puts the emphasis of the real source of danger to us, which is nuclear proliferation and nuclear terrorism. The policy says that is the first danger and the main reason why we have nuclear weapons. And by reducing the number of weapons and by narrowing their role by saying we won't use them against states that don't have nuclear weapons of their own, it makes clear that there is nothing to be gained by acquiring those weapons other than the possibility of a nuclear attack by the United States.
VELSHI: James, what do you think?
BLECHMAN: I think it's a very good step.
CARAFANO: Well, what the president said is we're going to disarm first and then we're going to try and keep other people from getting these terrible weapons and using them.
BLECHMAN: He didn't say that.
CARAFANO: And the likelihood is that's just going to make for a much more dangerous world. As our nuclear deterrent becomes less reliable, less credible and less safe, other countries are going to value nuclear weapons more. Ironically, the president's plan to go to zero is really probably going to spark the next arms race.
BLECHMAN: That is just incorrect. The president has never said that we would disarm first. He always says we will disarm with others, as we are with the START agreement.
CARAFANO: Well --
BLECHMAN: The United States has 5,000 nuclear weapons. Russia has a similar number. No other country has more than a few hundred. But we and the Russians can reduce quite a number of weapons.
CARAFANO: I wish that were true, Barry. But all we're going to do by signing this agreement --
VELSHI: James, you disagree with those numbers?
CARAFANO: I wish that were true, but all we're going to do by signing this agreement is actually reduce our nuclear weapons so Russia is actually -- in relation to us, is actually more powerful. Actually, empowering the Russians, we're not actually eliminating any nuclear weapons from the Russian arsenal.
BLECHMAN: This is just nonsense. We and the Russians will have equal numbers of operational strategic weapons.
CARAFANO: Right. And the Russians aren't giving --
BLECHMAN: We have a larger number of reserve weapons. The Russians have a larger number of tactical weapons.
CARAFANO: And the agreement --
BLECHMAN: The policy says we will engage the Russians and seek more comprehensive agreements in the future. But we're nowhere near any other country.
CARAFANO: And we're this agreement --
VELSHI: James?
CARAFANO: And this agreement does not cover tactical weapons. You know the Russians are not going to reduce their tactical weapons because they rely on them heavily. It's a key part of their strategy. So all we're doing is, we're weakening ourselves. We're empowering the Russians. We're really doing nothing in this agreement in any strategy, to stop Iran or North Korea.
VELSHI: But, James, are wee -- I was going to say, I'm assuming that we're more concerned about Iran and North Korea than we are about the Russians at this point.
CARAFANO: And this agreement does nothing to deter Iran and North Korea.
VELSHI: What do you think of that, Barry?
BLECHMAN: Those are separate issues. We have to act aggressively against those two countries. The president makes that clear in the policy review. This is broad nuclear policy. It's not specific policies toward those particular countries. It does show Iran that it will be in danger if it acquires nuclear weapons or if it does not come into compliance with its NPT obligations. So I think it's a good step.
VELSHI: Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty.
BLECHMAN: Yes.
VELSHI: Gentlemen, thank you very much.
CARAFANO: Thank you.
VELSHI: Barry Blechman is founder of the Stimson Center. James Carafano is with the Heritage Foundation in Washington. Obviously, this is a contentious issue. We'll keep on bring you more information on it.
Let's get a check of the top or stories that we're following here at CNN.
Grieving families of West Virginia miners are gathering near the scene of a massive blast that killed at least 25 people. Four others are unaccounted for at Massey Energy's Upper Big Branch South Mine, south of Charleston, West Virginia. Officials say it could take up to two days to remove dangerous gasses that are building up beneath the earth's surface.
In Moscow, authorities have identified the second female suicide bomber in last week's gruesome subway attacks. The culprit is believed to be Mariam Sharapova (ph), 28-year-old Russian honor student. Investigators say she's responsible for one of the two blasts that killed a total of 40 people on March 29th.
And in northern China, five coal miners were found dead today more than a week after their mine was flooded by a rush of underground water. That's according to state media. This comes a day after 115 trapped miners were pulled out alive. Dozens of workers remain missing.
All right. All day we've been telling you about this deadly mining explosion in West Virginia. It's the deadliest U.S. mining disaster in 25 years. Now we want to dig deeper and talk about mining industry, the supply of coal and America's demand for energy. All of that is coming right up after the break.
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VELSHI: OK. All day we've been talking about this horrific explosion at the West Virginia coal mine. Now, like we do every day on this show, let's break it down if you.
Let me tell you a little bit about coal mining and coal production in this country.
More than half of our electricity in the United States is generated by coal-fired plants. That means when you switch a light bulb on, there's a better than even chance in this country that that power was generated in a coal fired station.
There are three main regions of coal mining in this country, the Appalachia region, which is where this incident took place in West Virginia, the interior region and the western region. You saw a number of accidents that happened in Utah in the western region. But these are the concentrations of coal in this country.
Now, let me talk about coal production.
In 2009, there was -- there were 1.072 million tons of coal produced in this country. That is -- let me just show you how that breaks down. The western region is the largest, 584 million tons mined in the western region. The Appalachian region, which is where this accident took place, is the second largest, 339 million tons; and the interior region, 146 million tons. That's the smallest region of the three.
Now, coal demand is actually down, believe it or not. Consumption of coal is down in the United States by 10 percent. That's 2009 versus 2008. And exports are down 30 percent. Why? Well, that's because demand for many forms of energy were down, particularly because of the recession. People were consuming -- were consuming less, conserving a little more.
Let me just give you a sense of what coal generates in terms of power. One 100-watt bulb powered for one year, one 100-watt bulb, you've got it in your house, powered one year, uses 714 pounds of coal. So you need a lot of coal to power America's electricity. This is an important thing for you to know about as you think about the economics of coal mining.
Mining is a way of life for many people, many people in the region where this tragedy happened in West Virginia. I want to show you the types of mining. We're showing you that there's a mountain there. Let me show you a little bit about the different types of mining that takes place.
The first one is called a drift mine. That is where they can access the level where the coal exists. and they can mine right across portions of the mountain. Then you've got a slope mine, where you have got to go underground to some degree down a slope and you mine in an area that is below ground. And then there are the kinds that are very, very deep, that you think about when you think about mining, and that is a shaft mine. You can see here an elevator shaft. You go down and then you mine across the bottom. And in many cases there are combinations of these. shaft mines will exist on many different levels, but there's no way to make mining -- to say to you that mining is not a particularly dangerous endeavor.
Right after the break, we're going to introduce you to a man who grew up near the West Virginia mine where this accident took place. He wrote a best-selling book on the coal community, and that book turned into the movie "October Sky." He's standing right there, and we're going to talk to him when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) VELSHI: Our coverage continues now on the deadly mining explosion in West Virginia. I was just discussing with you the economics of coal. This is a lump of coal. And, in fact, to many of you this is associated with something of no value. It's not particularly expensive, a lump of coal like this. The value of coal is its thermal energy. It can burn for a very, very long time. It can burn very hot and it can provide and produce energy. But this is something to many of you, you'd kick it if you saw it on the ground, but it is the lifeblood of many, many counties and towns and villages across this country.
We've been following the story of the bodies that are being brought out of the area where the explosion occurred. Three of them were members of the same family. One woman lost a son and two grandsons yesterday. This isn't anything new. This is part of mining culture. It is often multi-generational.
We want to give you a snapshot of a mining town in West Virginia. This is where this took place. Whitesville is in Boone County. We're talking about a city with a population of 4 -- of 520. Now, at last check, 29.9 percent of the population, just a third -- almost a third of the population was below the poverty line. We're talking about second, third, fourth, and fifth generation miners. And this is a very typical mining town. Likely, everybody in that town is touched by this tragedy. Either you've got family who work in the mine or you're in some sort of business that is about servicing the families who walk -- work in those mines. It's also very likely that everyone works either for the company or has some connection to it. And no one knows the mining way of life than miners themselves.
For that we want to bring in Homer Hickam, he's live from Huntsville, Alabama. Homer is a former miner himself. He's written a book about mining. That book was made into a movie.
Homer, thank you for being with us. It's sad that we have to talk to you on occasions like this. It's thankful that --
HOMER HICKAM, FORMER MINER & AUTHOR: Yep.
VELSHI: -- that they're not all that often. This is something that miners and their families live with every day, the fear that this kind of thing can happen. Take us into that world a little bit and tell us a little bit about mining culture and mining towns.
HICKAM: Well, miners and miners' families typically kind of go in with -- with this idea. They're very proud of what they do. They know how important that mining is, not only to their families and to the local economy, but the overall economy. They're very patriotic people. So, they're very proud to be coal miners. They -- they trust in God, but ultimately they rely on themselves. So these folks are very hardy, very strong.
One stereotype about coal miners is that they're mostly all brawn and no brain, and also that they're all poor. In fact, the entry wage for most coal miners in West Virginia is somewhere between $40,000 and $50,000. And they go on up from there. That's just an entry wage. So they do, very, very well. The folks, of course, that don't have jobs, they bring the average down.
In terms of what they know, they're very high-tech. they're very savvy. This was a long-haul (ph) mine where the accident happened, which meant it was very computerized. There were folks down there that were killed, I'm sure, that were operating computers down there at the time. So the mining industry has changed a whole lot from when I worked in it.
VELSHI: All right. I want to talk to you more about in a bit. Stay right there, Homer. We're going to come back after a quick break, and you're going to tell us a little more about what it was like when you worked in the mines and how much has changed for the miners who were at the West Virginia where the explosion took place.
Stay with us. More with Homer Hickam on the other side.
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