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Justice John Paul Stevens Retiring; Congressman Bart Stupak Calling it Quits
Aired April 09, 2010 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: The breaking news from the nation's highest court, Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens saying he is retiring. That announcement coming 11 days before his 90th birthday.
In a letter sent to President Obama this morning, Justice Stevens says he will step down when the court finishes its work for the summer. This gives the president his second opportunity to appoint someone to the nation's highest court.
Among the possible nominee, federal appeals court Judges Diane Wood and Merrick Garland and Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano. We haven't mentioned the solicitor general, Elena Kagan, as well.
Joining us from Washington right now is CNN's John King. And on the phone with us is our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.
Jeffrey, let me start with you.
My friend, we were talking about this in a series of e-mails just a couple of days ago after your appearance on "Fresh Air" with Terry Gross. There were clear signs that this day was coming, and coming soon.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. I interviewed Justice Stevens for "The New Yorker" earlier this spring. And on March 8th, he told me that he would make up his mind about resigning in about a month.
Here it is, April 9th, true to his word. He has made up his mind. He has decided. And a major, major tenure on the Supreme Court, 34.5 years, comes to an end, and a great opportunity comes to President Obama.
HARRIS: Justice Stevens, when you think of his career appointed by Gerald Ford in 1975, what comes to mind, the kind of justice he has been?
TOOBIN: An unexpected liberal, someone who moved to the left as the court moved to the right. Someone who became really the leader of the liberals on the court, a staunch defender of abortion rights, a staunch defender of affirmative action, after being skeptical earlier in his tenure.
Probably the opinions he will be best remembered for are those that struck down the Bush administration's treatment of the detainees in Guantanamo Bay. Another decision he will be remembered for is a dissenting opinion. He wrote the lead dissent in Bush v. Gore, a decision that wrangles him to this day.
HARRIS: Boy. And Jeffrey, you asked Justice Stevens, "In your tenure, have you changed or has the court changed?" How did he answer that question?
TOOBIN: He said the court had changed. He said the court had moved to the right and he had stayed in the same place.
I think there is something to support that view. There are certainly areas of the law where the court has changed.
I also think he has changed. He was a really uncharacteristically bitter dissenter in January of this year when the court decided its Citizens United case, the case that said corporations have First Amendment rights essentially equal to that of human beings. That level of bitterness was not something we are used to seeing from Justice Stevens, and I think was indicative of the fact that he really feels out of sorts with the court majority at this point.
HARRIS: Let's bring in our John king of "JOHN KING USA."
John, your thoughts on this announcement? As I mentioned at the top here, not unexpected.
JOHN KING, HOST, "JOHN KING USA": Not unexpected. A fascinating challenge for the president of the United States. The gift, if you will, if you view it from the view of the president, of another legacy to pick so early in his first term. He already, of course, appointed the first Latino to the bench in Judge Sotomayor.
But to Jeffrey's point, for Justice Stevens to have the majority opinion in that detainee case, that proves that he was a negotiator on the court, he was able to bring people together. You have a strong conservative base on the court with Justice Alito, Justice Thomas, the new chief justice, Roberts.
And so, what will the president of the United States want now? When you know the court, still, in a Democratic administration, has a strong conservative base, who do you pick to get into that mix? Who do you pick who you think might be a good negotiator, somebody who can swing a vote, bring somebody over to the other side?
So, there's a big political decision for the president to face, not just in what happens in Senate confirmation, but what kind of a person does he want on the court? Do you pick a judge who's been on the bench for a long time, or do you pick somebody who has more of a political background, who might have more of the negotiating skills that Justice Stevens certainly developed over his tenure on the court?
HARRIS: Yes.
And Jeffrey, let me -- that's a great, great point, John. And let me toss that right to Jeffrey Toobin.
Who is that person that can bring over a vote? And I guess the vote we're really talking about here is Justice Kennedy.
What are your thoughts on that, Jeffrey?
TOOBIN: Well, this is really the Anthony Kennedy court right now. There has never been in my lifetime a justice who wields the power that Anthony Kennedy wields at this moment. And I think John is exactly right.
The job of the next justice will be to build bridges to Anthony Kennedy. Who can do that?
One of the curiosities of the current court is that all nine justices are former federal appeals court justices. There are no politicians. There are no law professors. There are no people who were in business.
This is unusual in Supreme Court history. There used to be former senators, former administration officials, people who are used to negotiating, not just people who are used to deciding.
This could favor someone like Elena Kagan, the solicitor general, former dean of Harvard Law School, who has the reputation of a consensus builder. It could favor Janet Napolitano, the current secretary of Homeland Security, former governor of Arizona.
I think the problems with the Christmas bombings may have hurt Janet Napolitano's chances. She was a finalist last time, as was Kagan. But I do think President Obama has said that he thinks it's time to get out of the rut of appointing only federal appeals court judges. Sonia Sotomayor, his first appointment, was an appeals court judge, but I think he is going to want to feel that it is time to have some occupational diversity on the court, as well as religious, gender and racial diversity.
HARRIS: And John, let me have you address that.
What are your thoughts on this next selection? You make a great point that, is this going to be a pick, a person who can win the support of the conservative on the court? Of the names that we hear most often, what are your thoughts on that list?
KING: Well, you certainly know that the former law professor and Harvard Law student, Barack Obama, wants somebody like that. The president also faces a political choice of getting somebody confirmed.
But to Jeff's point, I've been e-mailing with some people. The last time the president went through this, and even in the transition to the new administration, they had an inside legal group, but also an outside group, saying, hey, who do you think are the best people out there?
One of the people who was very prominent in the outside group just sent me an e-mail saying, "I would put Elena Kagan at the top of your list" for the very reasons Jeff just said. She's a law professor, not a judge. She's now the solicitor general of the United States.
She's also, Tony, 49 years old. And if you go back to the pictures you just showed, we have a conservative base of this court. Scalia, now perhaps a bit older, but he's been on the court quite some time, appointed as a relatively young man. Alito, appointed as a relatively young man. Clarence Thomas, appointed as a young man.
Ruth Bader Ginsburg is still on the court. She has had some health issues.
HARRIS: That's right.
KING: So President Obama may yet get another choice. He still has more than two-and-a-half years in just his first term.
So one of the things you're thinking as a president is, look at the impact these Republican nominees -- Justice Souter, of course, no long or the court. Sonia Sotomayor took his place. Look at the impact these Republican nominees have had.
If you're Barack Obama, you're thinking, I want 20 years from now to be looking at these pictures when I'm in retirement and seeing the faces I put on the court as being those who are shaping American society. And so that is part of the president's calculation.
HARRIS: All right.
And let's bring in for a moment here -- I believe our CNN political director, Mark Preston, is with us as well.
And Mark, I'm trying to sort through some e-mails here. I know you've got a letter from Patrick Leahy, who is the chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee.
Do you have that handy?
MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: I do. I do, Tony.
HARRIS: OK.
PRESTON: It's actually a rather lengthy statement that Patrick Leahy has put out which just even further shows that, in fact, people expected Justice Stevens to step down.
But among other things, he just talks about how his legacy on the court will be long lasting and, you know, basically he was such a good justice. We haven't seen anything in there regarding timing of hearings, Senate hearings. But I'll tell you what, Tony, it will be an interesting summer as we watch all of these folks talking about whether he should be -- you know, who President Obama, whoever he chooses for the court, some of these folks who are going to be opposing it, and some of these folks who are going to supporting it. Patrick Leahy, of course, will be the one who is in charge of shepherding through the nomination. You know, a couple of other folks that I think our viewers will really want to take a look at is someone like Jon Kyl. He's a very conservative Republican from Arizona. He will play a big part.
And here's a name for you, Al Franken, who joined the Senate about this time last year, right about late spring, early summer last year, finally was seated in the Senate. It will be interesting to see Al Franken, who is a former "Saturday Night Live" writer, who's the Democrat from Minnesota, what role, if any -- he sits on the Judiciary Committee -- what role, if any, he will take in this confirmation process.
HARRIS: Mark, appreciate it. Thanks.
And John, did you want to add something there?
KING: I just want to say quickly, Tony, we're quickly seeing the political lines are formed. Mark just mentioned the statement from Chairman Leahy of the committee, also Orrin Hatch, who is a key Republican Senate. Jeff Sessions is the lead Republican in the committee, and we'll watch to see what he says, but Orrin Hatch, another leading Republican voice on these matters, just issued a statement.
Number one, applauding the career of Justice John Paul Stevens. But then also laying down the conservative marker, saying that whoever the president appoints must not be an activist judge. And that you will hear a lot from Republicans and conservatives in the coming days as they frame the battle, somebody who will interpret the Constitution, not make law from the bench.
You've heard it before. We heard it during the Sotomayor hearings.
(CROSSTALK)
HARRIS: Must not be an activist judge.
KING: Not be an activist judge. That is the conservative line.
And remember, Tony, that would be their line anyway, but we are in the early spring of a very contentious midterm election year where both parties know getting your base voters, your core supporters, motivated for the fall is the most important part of the political campaign. This choice by the president, a consequential choice for American society, is going to get caught right up into a very contentious midterm climate.
HARRIS: John, you are so right about that.
And let me go to Jeffrey Toobin.
Jeffrey, are you still on the line with us?
TOOBIN: I am, indeed. HARRIS: Did you hear that line about not wanting someone who would be an activist judge? And I thought of you immediately, because there is a pretty strong argument being made in some quarters that the more conservative members of this court have been, in fact, activist justices.
TOOBIN: Right. Well, "activist" is one of those epithets that's thrown around when it comes to Supreme Court justices, but as it turns out, everybody likes a certain kind of activist. Liberals like Roe v. Wade, which was a decision to overturn abortion laws in many states in the union. That is certainly an activist decision.
But conservatives like activism, too. They like the Heller decision two years ago that overturned gun control laws. Democratically passed, democratically-elected officials passed gun control laws, and in an activist decision, the Supreme Court struck that down.
The Supreme Court struck down part of the McCain//Feingold law. That was certainly an activist decision.
So, there are liberal activists and there are conservative activists. I think that term should be retired, frankly, because it's not terribly helpful. But I don't have high hopes for it being retired.
HARRIS: One more quick one, Jeffrey. There is a pretty important case pending here. We're going to get a decision on it soon, McDonald versus Chicago, a case examining the legality of Chicago's handgun ban.
Why don't you set up what's at issue there? And I know you've got some thoughts on the difficulty the court is going to have in squaring a decision here with the decision that came down on the D.C. case.
TOOBIN: Correct. In the Heller case two years ago, that was the case that said the District of Columbia, which is considered part of the federal government, may not ban handguns under the Second Amendment, which speaks of the right to keep and bear arms. The question in the case you mentioned is, may the state of Illinois ban handguns? Because the Bill of Rights speaks directly to the federal government.
The amendments say Congress shall pass no law, shall make no law. But over a series of decisions, the justices have applied many -- not all, but many of the provisions of the Bill of Rights against the states.
So, the question is, may states, as well as the federal government, be restricted in passing gun control laws? And given the oral argument, given the way the courts are going, the court has been going, I think the answer to that case will be yes. States will also be banned from passing gun control laws, but it's just one of the many, many contentious issues a new justice will have to face.
HARRIS: And let me get back to John King.
John, before we wrap up this segment, any thoughts from you on this decision from Justice John Paul Stevens? Any additional thoughts?
KING: I think it's -- number one, we should pay tribute to his service. Whether you agree or disagree out there in the country with the decisions he's made over 34 years, he has had a remarkable imprint on the court. And in doing so, a remarkable imprint on American society.
And Jeff noted earlier, we often forget that when we move on to, who is next, what will the political fight be? This is a man who has left his mark on American society for generations to come.
And for this moment, Tony, my last observation is just that the president is in such a remarkable political climate. He thinks the new health care law is part of his legacy. That is being debated, of course, across the country right now.
He has already appointed the first Latino justice to the Supreme Court. Now, in just his second year, our first African-American president, a former law professor himself, is looking both at his long-term legacy and at the short-term political climate, and it is a fascinating spring here in Washington, D.C.
HARRIS: What amazing times we are living in. What a privilege to be doing the jobs that we do during these amazing times.
John King, the host of "JOHN KING USA."
John, appreciate it. Thank you very much.
We'll be talking more with our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, maybe later this hour, and certainly next hour. And to Mark Preston as well.
Let's take a quick break. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.
We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: OK. He cast a crucial vote to pass health care reform and he came under fire from the right and the left. Now Democratic Congressman Bart Stupak is calling it quits.
Our senior congressional correspondent, Dana Bash, was first to report this story for us, and she is joining us from Marquette, Michigan.
Dana, good to see you. Great reporting, by the way.
DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Thank you.
HARRIS: How much of a role did the fallout over health care reform play in Stupak's decision?
BASH: Well, let me tell you what people close to him are telling me that he is going to announce at this podium right behind me in just a little over an hour.
They say that he is going to say that the role that health care reform played in his decision is that he first ran in 1992, 18 years ago, on the promise of trying to reform health care, and now that it is done he feels that it is OK for him to retire from Congress. So that is what he is going to argue.
Having said that, there is no question that these last several weeks, particularly the last several days at the end of March, when Bart Stupak gained so much notoriety and, as you said, a lot of vitriol from the left and the right for his health care vote, that had to have been weighing on his mind. In fact, he has -- before he left he told me and others that, you know, the issue and the atmosphere, you know, was very difficult. There is no question about it.
But he is actually somebody, Tony who, unlike other Democrats who are in real trouble because of their health care vote, and just because this is a really bad year for Democrats, he wasn't considered really vulnerable here in this very, very big first district of Michigan up here in the Upper Peninsula. He's won by huge margins in the past.
I mean, last time around he won by 65 percent in 2006 -- 69 percent. And look, he is somebody who has fit the district. It is a conservative district. He is a very conservative Democrat, as we well know, an anti-abortion Democrat.
But because of that particular vote and because he got squeezed on the abortion issue, people who traditionally supported him, who were anti-abortion, said that they thought he sold out because the restrictions he got on health care weren't tough enough. And on the left, not a lot of people on the far left in the district, but there are some who said that they thought he made sure that there were too many restrictions on abortion in this health care bill.
HARRIS: That's interesting. So, in essence, what you're hearing from his supporters is that he may say something in the order of, my work here is done, I came here -- essentially, I wasn't a one-issue politician, but I came here to get health care done and I've gotten it done, and now I'm moving on.
BASH: That's the gist of what we are told he is going to say.
We are told that he made this decision, actually, formally with his family and with his son and his wife, actually, at the Final Four game in Indianapolis last weekend. Michigan State, you'll remember, played Butler, and that was when he made a final decision. But this is something that he actually, we're told by sources, gave a head's up to that he was thinking about doing to Democratic leaders and the White House.
And I'm told that the president himself called just a couple of nights ago and really begged him not to do this because, just politically, look, they've certainly had their issues with Bart Stupak and the Democratic leadership. There's no question about it. We witnessed it. But politically, they have felt that he benefited them for a lot of reasons, but primarily, in terms of November, there is deep concern here in Michigan.
We've heard it -- I've been here for the past couple of days -- and also in Washington, that without Bart Stupak, who really has developed a reservoir of good will here in this district, it could go Republican. People are registered Democrat. About half of them are registered Democrat, but they very much have conservative leanings socially and fiscally.
And one thing we should not forget to mention, the irony of this timing is not just that it is April and a couple of weeks after the health care bill, and pretty close to the deadline here. It's also that the Tea Party Express is here in his district, and I was with them.
The whole reason I'm here is I was with them a few hours away when they started their first of what they had planned on five rallies to try to push Bart Stupak into what they call early retirement. And here Bart Stupak is doing it for them.
HARRIS: So, are they likely or have they already claimed victory on this?
BASH: Oh, yes.
HARRIS: Oh, yes.
BASH: Claiming victory big time, as you can imagine. They've announced that the remaining four rallies that they're planning in this district, which I can't emphasize enough, it's huge -- it's the second biggest district landmass-wise east of the Mississippi -- that they're going to turn those into victory rallies.
But look, let's just have a reality check here.
I was at the rally last night. There certainly were maybe 300, 400 people, and they seemed to be all locals coming to the rally.
The reality check here is it still was -- the Tea Party movement was still very much untested. It's untested around the country, but untested here in this district, whether they could really have much of an impact, and how many people who were there who were potentially going to vote for Stupak or going to vote for a Republican no matter what.
HARRIS: Yes. Well, because at some point you have got to stand for something and you have to put forward some positions that you want to run on. And you can't just be an opposition movement.
Dana, good stuff. Really good stuff. Appreciate it.
Our senior congressional correspondent, Dana Bash, for us. Bart Stupak has represented Michigan's 1st Congressional District since 1993. His, as Dana just mentioned, is the second largest district east of the Mississippi, and includes the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and the northern part of the Lower Peninsula. The district is more than 93 percent white and two percent American-Indian and Eskimo, and about 1.4 percent African-American.
Once again, our big story today, Justice John Paul Stevens announces his retirement, and Congressman Bart Stupak of Michigan will say he is not seeking re-election.
Next hour we are covering both of these stories with the best political team on television, right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: All right. Let's get to CNN's political director, Mark Preston. He is in Washington for us, and he has more reaction to the news that Justice Stevens is stepping down, retiring.
PRESTON: Sure, Tony. Fast and furious right now.
People are reacting to Justice Stevens' decision to step down from the court, a court that he served on since 1975. And, in fact, Tony, in his resignation letter, what he says is that he is doing so because he would like to have this done well in advance, before the court comes back into session later in the year. So, Justice Stevens says he will step down at the conclusion of this term, and he would like to try to get this process moving as quickly as possible because he would like to see the court fully stocked come October, when it comes back in.
HARRIS: That's right.
PRESTON: Now, in addition to that though, we are seeing reaction from Capitol Hill, and also from interest groups. And, in fact, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell has put out a statement, and among many things, including the kind words that he had offered for Justice Stevens, he also says, "As we await the president's nominee to replace Justice Stevens at the end of his term, Americans can expect Senate Republicans to make a sustained and vigorous case for judicial restraint and the fundamental importance on an evenhanded reading of the law."
Now, Tony, going back to what John King has been talking about this morning, judicial activism, Republicans are laying down the law right now that they will demand that the next justice of the Supreme Court is not a liberal and not somebody who just interprets the Constitution.
HARRIS: OK. And Mark, we are just getting word that President Obama will address this when he returns to the White House at 1:20 -- about 1:20 this afternoon.
And we'll, of course, bring the president's comments on this story to you when it happens right here in the CNN NEWSROOM. Mark, appreciate it. We'll talk to you in just a couple of minutes.
Get ready to meet a pretty incredible young woman. Mackenzie Bearup lives with an agonizing and incurable disease, yet she spends her time easing the pain of other children by sharing her secret for relief -- reading.
She is our CNN Hero of the Week, and she is only 16 years old. Man!
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MACKENZIE BEARUP, CNN HERO: I was in the fifth grade when I hurt my knee.
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(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS: Boy, so far, Mackenzie Bearup has donated almost 40,000 books to shelters in six states.
If you'd like to nominate someone you think is changing the world, here's how you do just that. Go to CNN.com/heroes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: OK, let's do this. Let's get back to John King, the host of "John King USA" and John, I know you've been able to make sense of the letter from John Paul Stevens to the president. I've had a difficult time pulling it up through the e-mail system, but I know you have it. Why don't you share this with us?
JOHN KING, HOST "JOHN KING USA": Tony as we get caught up in the drama of all this, we should also know this is one of Washington's great rituals. At 10:30 this morning, a clerk from the court delivered a letter over to the White House and it's a simple one paragraph and you can't see it on the screen, but at the top left it says, Chambers of Justice John Paul Stevens.
Not many people in our history get that letterhead and it says very quickly, Dear Mr. President, having concluded to have my successor appointed and confirmed well in advance of the court's next term, I shall retire from regular active service as an associate justice under the provisions of 28 United States court. He lists effective, the next day after the court rises for the summer recess.
So a very simple one-paragraph letter addressed to my Dear Mr. President, with that John Paul Stevens serves notice that after 34 years on the court he's ready to go home and retirement in the summer. Now it will set off a huge political fight and one quick observation, Tony, you were talking to Dana a bit earlier about Bart Stupak.
How is that connected to this? John Paul Stevens was the guy in the middle of the court. He was left of center and he ended up left of center and he negotiated back and forth and helped cut deals on pretty big decisions. Where is the middle in American politics right now? Bart Stupak, a conservative Democrat feels pressure to leave.
Bob Bennett, a conservative Republican in Utah facing a challenge from the right people saying he's not conservative enough. Blanche Lincoln, a Democrat in Arkansas facing a challenge from the left. People saying she's not liberal enough. A union starting to form a third party in North Carolina because it believes Democrats there aren't akin to working Americans aren't liberal enough.
There's a big debate in our country right now being dominated and pushed by what I'll call the left and the right extremes and the question is if you're in the middle, if you describe yourself as a moderate as John Paul Stevens would, as some of these other political figures would, can you survive in today's age?
And that will be the framing of the big political debate over once the president picks a nominee in the weeks ahead, that nominee is going have a very interesting time before the Senate Judiciary Committee some time later this fall.
HARRIS: John, you have tapped into the debate in this country right now so beautifully with that statement. I've often wondered just how wide and deep is the middle in this country right now, and I know that the extremes on either side got a lot of attention, they rally and they jump up and down and they scream, and I feel that there is a wide and deep middle in this country. Those voices are being squeezed out a bit. I think you have tapped on it and what is your sense of that middle right now as you talk about these issues every night on your program?
KING: Well, we need to define where the middle is and the middle shifts with our politics. There used to be a term the radical middle which is in and of itself an oxymoron in the sense that where if you're a moderate you're not ideological. You don't get so passionate about things.
You're trying to be a pragmatist. You're trying to figure out, let's get this done. We agree on 50 percent of this, let's get that done and we'll argue the rest tomorrow. But we saw it throughout the Bush presidency and in the Clinton presidency before that. That it's very hard for the middle to solidify and to be the dominant force in our politics.
And right now, Tony, and this is not to criticize anybody, don't get me wrong because one of the great gifts we have in this country is the free speech and we have the Tea Party Movement which is to the right, anti-establishment, less government, get Washington out of our way and you have people on the left that said the president gave up on the public option and the liberals aren't doing enough to fight for labor unions and things like that.
They're the people who can raise the money, who have the dedicated foot soldiers in this mid-term election and as we watch the debate over Justice Stevens and the primaries going into the spring, summer and into the fall. That is what you want to watch. Who's coming up, because those people out in America who are motivated will influence the positions, senators take here in Washington as it comes to the president's next pick for the supreme court and just how contentious that fight will be.
HARRIS: You know, another thought on Bart Stupak, brings me back to it with your comments there and we have no way of knowing this, but I wonder to what extent it really was the heat that he encountered over this decision. If you listen to Dana's reporting, what you're saying is he came to Washington to essentially pass health care reform and in some respects he feels like his work is over.
Do you think that it is the vitriol that he has felt in the aftermath of that vote? Any idea whether he had the war chest to fight to move through another campaign and whether he felt he owed it to himself and the vote he had cast to fight for it, to make the case and let the chips fall where they may.
KING: He could easily have raised the money as an incumbent to somebody. His wife and family were getting threats after this health care vote and he didn't like that. I had him on the program as we were just launching show the and we had an interesting conversation where he said I hope in a couple of week, both the left and the right would have calmed down and said the health care bill is not perfect, but give it a chance. And if we have to go back and fix something, then we'll fix something, but everyone should calm down. Obviously, in his district, people have not calmed down. When the interview was over and he was leaving the studio, he was one of many politicians who have told me in recent years, it's just not fun anymore.
He's a former police officer. He is not a career politician and he used to be a police officer and he's from a rural district, a place from small town America where those miners have unfortunately perished. A place very different, but yet the same. They rally around each other and he says you know what? It's not that much fun anymore and a lot of people in the town say that.
HARRIS: One other thought, I'm looking at the note now from Justice Stevens to the president. You made note of it a moment ago. My Dear Mr. President, this justice spoke admiringly of the president. Is it pretty clear to you that Justice Stevens wanted Barack Obama to make this choice?
KING: Yes, because he doesn't know who will win the next presidential election and he believes, Justice Stevens was appointed by General Ford who was a Republican, but a middle of the road Republican and a Republican who became president after the tragedy of Watergate.
So a relatively middle of the road mid-western Republican General Ford from Western Michigan and not very far from by the way where Bart Stupak is from appointed John Paul Stevens to the court and Justice Stevens very much wanted a man who, like Justice Stevens was born in Chicago.
Barack Obama now calls Chicago home, a man who ideologically and philosophically much closer to Justice Stevens, that what might have happened if Barack Obama loses his re-election campaign that's a long way off, Tony. If you're Justice Stevens and you know it's about time, he could have gone through it two or three more years.
You know that time is getting close, you do it at a moment when somebody you like and respect has a chance to name your replacement. So Justice Stevens is giving President Obama here a great gift. A chance that every president wants to pick a legacy pick of the Supreme Court. This will be number two for President Obama and remember, he still has two and a half years left in his first term and Justice Ginsburg could well step aside by the time we get around to late 2010, 2011 and into 2012.
HARRIS: John King, the man knows his stuff. The host of "John King USA." John, I appreciate it. Thanks for your time. You've been really generous with us. Let's take a break here in the CNN Newsroom.
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HARRIS: Lose your job, you can file for unemployment. More people did that for the first time last week than the week before and even though the number of people who filed continuing claims dropped pretty sizeably, states are still finding it tough to help. Christine Romans of our money team is here. The reality here, Christine, is that states are just running out of money to pay for unemployment benefits.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Many of them already ran out. They're simply broke in their funds for jobless benefits and they've been forced to go to the federal government and borrow money from the feds to make sure that they're still paying it out. Thirty three states, Tony, are insolvent, four are on the brink. They borrowed over $39 billion from Uncle Sam to keep up with their obligations. To make sure that you are still getting the check if your states unemployment benefits are warranted.
Now who are the states in the most trouble? It's the usual suspects. It's the states that have had terrible, terrible budget problems, Tony, and awfully high unemployment. Michigan, Ohio, New York, Pennsylvania, California. The people who follow this point out some states are doing better than others. There are more than a dozen states that are fine at the moment either because they have very low unemployment or because during the good times they were socking the money away and they always had a reserve equal to the worst period of unemployment in the preceding recession.
So you can see those green states doing a little bit better than everyone else like North Dakota, Montana and some of those. So this is a pretty serious situation, if you have unemployment continuing to stay at 9.5 percent to 10 percent, it's not a problem it's not going away. It means the states have to borrow from the feds, who have to borrow from someone else to make sure that the money is still flowing in those checks, Tony.
HARRIS: And the federal government has to make sure it passes these resolutions to make sure that unemployment money is in the system, correct? We've seen how difficult that has been the last couple of months.
ROMANS: Right, you've got the Senate that went home for the Easter break, leaving 200,000 people to roll off their benefits. We are told they'll address that first thing when they come back on Monday, but Tony, you're also starting to see a renewed discussion about how long extended unemployment benefits are going to continue.
You can give benefits in some places up to 99 weeks. The average length of unemployment is about 32 weeks. So the question is, at what point do you start to have a real vigorous discussion about how much it's costing to keep people on benefits for 99 weeks and at what point they stop with all these extension, but for now, they'll start talking about it again next week.
HARRIS: OK, Christine, appreciate it. See you next hour. Thank you.
ROMANS: Sure.
HARRIS: America, as you know, is really drowning in massive debt. What will happen to our economy if we don't change course and how can we change course in the current economic climate? CNN looks at these issues in a two-hour special IOU USA this Saturday at 1:00 p.m. and Sunday at 3:00 p.m. Eastern time.
Checking our top stories now. After 34 years, on the nation's highest court Justice John Paul Stevens is stepping down. In a letter sent to President Obama this morning, Justice Stevens says he will retire after the court finishes its work in the summer. His announcement comes 11 days before he turns 90 years old.
Bart Stupak calling, a Michigan Democrat calling it quits after 18 years in Congress. CNN the first to tell you that story. He is expected to make it official next hour. Stupak has come under attack from both conservatives and liberals after his 11th-our deal to support the health care reform bill.
The Fort Hood shooting suspect is out of the hospital and in a Texas jail cell. Army Major Nadal Hasan was wounded in a shooting spree he allegedly carried out in November. He is charged in the deaths of 13 people. Hasan faces trial in the military court system.
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All right. Let's get you to our White House correspondent Dan Lothian and Dan, when did the White House learn of the decision to retire from Justice Stevens, and was it expected?
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, yes, first of all, with your second question, it certainly was expected. White House official have been saying for quite some time that this is something that they have been working on, although as you would imagine they have not released any interesting names as to who the president might be looking at.
In terms of when the White House found out, according to Senior Administration official, the White House got a letter from a Supreme Court representative this morning at around 10:30 and the White House Counsel's office reached out to the president at 10:45. He was obviously on Air Force One returning from Prague and this is when he was notified by this.
The president was initially scheduled, it was added late this morning to make some remarks in the Rose Garden upon his arrival here on the West Virginia mine tragedy. So now we are being told by officials here at the White House that the president will add to those remarks and say something about Justice Stevens as well.
So this, again not something that was unexpected at all. The White House fully working on this, but now with the formal announcement, you can expect this will go into high gear and, of course, you know, the names will be even more pronounced now as we begin that guessing game as to who the president will choose.
HARRIS: The name game, we like that around here.
LOTHIAN: That's right.
HARRIS: All right then Dan Lothian at the White House for us. Let's take a quick break here on the CNN Newsroom. We'll be back in a moment.
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HARRIS: Tax day is coming. For those of you who filed online or plan to, you can get your refund in as little as 10 days. Like the sound of that. I like the sound of that. So, how should you spend all that money? Assuming that it is all that money. Our Stephanie Elam joining me with some suggestions, good stuff here, Stephanie?
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you know, if you're getting a refund you need to know about that, Tony, right?
HARRIS: Yes.
ELAM: Some ways to -- ways to use it, right? And nearly 90 percent of Americans are expecting refunds from the IRS this year, 90 percent that's a lot. With nearly eight in 10 workers living paycheck to paycheck, this is according to a recent survey by Career Builder, those refunds will be a much-needed income boost.
So 56 percent of respondents said they will use their refunds to pay off bills. 34 percent say they will put the money into savings. Only 7 percent said they would invest the money from the refund. Others plan to improve their homes, go on vacation, pay people back. Yes, that might be higher up, and just two percent say they plan to head to the car dealership.
So if you take a look at that chart there, majority of the respondents are totally on point. Instead of going on a shopping spree, paying down your debt is the best thing to do with the money. Pay off bills with the highest interest rates first of course. Don't just think about credit card debt. Consider your student loan, car loans, even your mortgage. You want to tackle the bills, Tony.
HARRIS: What about -- look, let's applaud the folks who are talking about putting the money into savings and paying off debt.
ELAM: Sure.
HARRIS: How about the folks who are putting the money into savings. That's a pretty good idea. Come on.
ELAM: No, there's nothing wrong with that. We always talk about having a financial cushion.
HARRIS: All kinds of information from folks saying we need to spend, spend, spend because 70 percent of this economy -- we need to save, too, Stephanie.
ELAM: That's true. I don't know if each person needs to take on that burden themselves.
HARRIS: Good point.
ELAM: I don't think one person can change the course of the economy. That is true. We do need people to spend in general here and there. But as far as your own financial cushion and health, nothing puts you on a path to financial security faster than having a little extra in the bank.
Good time to start an emergency fund with the tax refund. Most financial planners recommend that you have an emergency fund, with enough money to live for three to six months without any income. Everyone do the math. Do you have that money? Think about it. So if you haven't already established this type of savings, start with that chunk of change from the refund and a cushion is a nice thing to have, Tony.
HARRIS: Now according to the survey not many people plan to invest the money from their refund. Is that the case? Am I reading that correctly?
ELAM: Yes, that is the sad reality here. Close to 78 percent of those surveyed admit they are living paycheck to paycheck. That is up from last year when -- in May of last year, we saw 61 percent as the number. People are scaling back their 401(k) contributions as well.
So this all shows us people are really holding on tight to the money. The survey found that more Americans that are working, plan to use the refund for daily expenses rather than saving it for a rainy day. But you really got to keep in mind that investing is the key to your future. It's a lot easier to put away for your retirement now than having to do it later. Tony --
HARRIS: Give us a preview of what's coming up on this weekend's "Your Bottom Line" hosted by Stephanie Elam, please.
ELAM: Yes. Yes, indeed. Hosted by me and we are talking about the fact, Tony, that this is the last weekend you have to do your taxes. So we've got some last-minute tax advice. Answering some of the questions that you guys have sent in to us. We're going to talk about that.
We're going to tell you some tricks to keep your credit score where you want it to be. Some good little basics you need to know to keep your credit score where you want to. And also the lesser known measures in the health reform law, how they will affect you, targeting your wellness and prevention programs. All that coming up on "Your Bottom Line," 9:30 a.m. Eastern right here on CNN -- Tony.
HARRIS: Terrific. Thank you, Stephanie. Have a great weekend.
ELAM: Thanks, Tony. You, too.
HARRIS: Thank you.
Here's what we're working on for the next hour of CNN NEWSROOM. More on the story CNN was the first to report Michigan Congressman Bart Stupak expected to announce his retirement. We'll look back on what led up to this decision and losing his historically popular Democratic seat from a sprawling conservative district could mean to the Democratic party. The new face of the blue-collar worker. As old manufacturing dies, high-tech smart jobs are finding their niche on the factory floor and in the office. It is my report on where the jobs are. That's next hour right here in the CNN newsroom.
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