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Polish President Killed in Plane Crash; GOP Holds Leadership Conference; Controversy Arises From Virginia Governor's Proclamation of April as Confederate History Month
Aired April 10, 2010 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, mourning the Polish president killed in a horrific plane crash. Now come questions about the plane's age and record and why the pilot ignored orders not to land in thick fog.
The Civil War and the confederacy making a sudden comeback this week, fueled by a state proclamation to honor them. While many are outraged, especially African-Americans, one black Civil War re-enactor stands up for his confederate pride live this hour. And this week, you heard about the airline charging for carry-on bags, right? Everyone is asking, what are they thinking? So we invited the CEO of Spirit Airlines to answer that very question for us live here tonight.
We begin in western Russia, where a tragic plane crash today claimed the lives of nearly 100 top Polish officials including the president, first lady and senior military leaders. Terrorism does not appear to be a factor. Weather does. And Russian and Polish authorities say the Polish military plane crash while approaching the airport in Smolensk, Russia in heavy fog. The plane may have clipped some trees at the end of the runway. A delegation had gone to Russia to mark the 70th anniversary of a horrific event in World War II, the massacre of 20,000 Polish POWs in the nearby village of Katyn. The Polish ambassador to the U.S. and President Lech Kaczynski embodied the spirit of Polish independence in the post-Soviet world.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT KUPIECKI, POLISH AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: President Kaczynski represented the generation of freedom, the freedom connected permanently with the legacy of solidarity movement, which in 1989 brought about freedom, democracy and prosperity to Poland. The greatest legacy of late President Kaczynski is the one of freedom and is the one of creating foundations for enormous political, economic success and prosperity in Poland.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Let's go straight to the scene of that horrific crash and photojournalist Luis Graham-Yooll, he's on the phone with us tonight. What are you seeing and hearing there?
LUIS GRAHAM-YOOLL, CNN PHOTOJOURNALIST: Hi, Don. I'm sorry. Could you repeat that please? LEMON: I said, what are you seeing there at the scene?
GRAHAM-YOOLL: Well, a lot of -- in woodland, a very short distance away from the runway. We have the wing in one area of the woodland and you have the body and the tail in another area. Obviously a lot of rescue workers were there. Night has fallen. It is about 1:00 in the morning here now. So that work has sort of quieted down now. But we're no doubt be here in the morning.
LEMON: Luis Graham-Yooll is a CNN photojournalist. He is on the scene now. We'll get more from him as this story continues to develop. As we said, there was some question about the plane landing, that the pilot defied orders not to land in thick fog, that he should not have landed there. And there's also some question about the age of the airplane. We'll be following this developing story here on CNN all evening for you.
Meantime, in Washington, D.C., President Barack Obama issued this statement, "Today's loss is devastating to Poland, to the United States and to the world. President Kaczynski was a distinguished statesman who played a key role in the solidarity movement, and he was widely admired in the United States as a leader dedicated to advancing freedom and human dignity."
Many people have been showing up at the Polish Embassy in Washington to pay their respects. And that's where we find CNN's Sandra Endo tonight. What is the mood there now, Sandra?
SANDRA ENDO, CNN CORREPSONDENT: A very somber one, as you can imagine, Don. We just came from inside the embassy and there are about 12 people in line waiting to sign the condolence book. We have seen a steady stream of people go inside the embassy to pay their respects. And the ambassador himself is inside, fielding phone calls and taking visitors, many from dignitaries who are expressing this very sad day for Poland and the Polish people. And outside, the national flag is flying at half-staff. And people have also been coming to lay down flowers and candles. Obviously the colors, red and white, dominating the arrangements. That is the color of their national flag. So the sorrow not only being felt very deeply in Poland, but also among Polish Americans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I came out because my family is from Poland. My grandfather fought in World War II. And during the war, they had to leave Poland. I've been to Poland studying there and came out just because to pay respect, just it is a tragedy what happened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I came out here today to pay my respects and to show solidarity with the Polish nation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENDO: And we are just learning that locally the dignitaries here and the diplomatic family will be holding a memorial tomorrow. Of course this kicks off a week long of mourning for the Polish people and everyone who is remembering the tragedy of this accident.
And, of course, we have also heard from the ambassador here, as you were mentioning, he expressed gratitude to President Obama and many Americans who have also expressed their condolences. Don?
LEMON: Thank you very much for that, Sandra Endo at the Polish Embassy in Washington, D.C., tonight. Thank you, Sandra.
Many Americans may not be familiar with the Polish president. So Josh Levs is here to explain who he was and why he was an important U.S. ally. Josh, so how much power did the Polish president have?
JOSH LEVS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, more than a lot of people realize I think. The prime minister has more power inside the Polish governmental structure, but this president does certainly have some power and we have seen that over recent years. You know, one thing the president does is he actually appoints officially the prime minister. And the prime minister then has to get the support of the lower House of Parliament. And who he originally appointed to be prime minister was his twin brother. You probably heard some talk about the Kaczynski brothers and it was his brother who served as prime minister for a while. And together the two of them really controlled political life inside Poland for a number of years.
It was a couple of years after that that a new candidate came along, someone else came along and became the prime minister who was an opposition candidate. And that kind of changed the balance of power there. So Don, what we have seen is this is a president who has had some authority. He certainly is able to veto some bills that come across his desk. He certainly can represent the country on an international scale and he did at some times. And actually I spoke with an analyst today. We're going to hear from them. Who talked about the level of his popularity at the end of his life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANUSZ BUGAJSKI, CTR FOR STRATEGIC AND INTL STUDIES: He was a president who maybe wasn't popular among all Poles but there was a certain loyalty to the fact that he was the head of state, developed very good relations with the United States. During his watch, Poland joined various international institutions, it contributed to NATO missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. So there was -- he did have popularity, even though he had a lot of opposition. But I think the important thing was his symbolism. He represented Poland.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEVS: And there is no question about that. He certainly was a major figure, representing Poland in a very big way. And it had a major impact. One thing I will mention that when he first came to power, he said he was going to do something about what his party, that he and his brother created, believed was too much communist influence, Don, inside Poland. They said there was too many vestiges of that communist era inside Poland. They said they were going to tackle it. And they did take some steps. It was an example of some influence that the president can have. LEMON: Josh Levs, always appreciate your input, thank you very much for that.
People in Poland understandably are mourning and in shock tonight, of course. CNN's Frederik Pleitgen live right in Warsaw. Fred, who is in charge of this government now is the question.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Don. Well certainly for the moment it is going to be the speaker of parliament, a man named Bronislaw Komorowski who has now got 14 days to announce a new election date and then will have another 60 days for those elections to actually take place. The interesting thing about the political climate here in Poland right now is that there were going to be presidential elections taking place here in Poland in October anyway.
Now, of course, those presidential elections are going to have to be moved forward substantially in the face, of course, of this tragedy. There really is a lot of guessing if you will here in this country as to what sort of influence this incident is going to have on those elections. Certainly before his death, it looked as though President Kaczynski would have been unseated in elections. Now we would see what political successors there are going to be.
But let me just show you a little bit of the scene that is happening here. I'm standing right in front of the presidential palace here in Warsaw. And if we pan over to the side here, you can see that there is just a sea of candles there, tens of thousands, if not over 100,000 people have come here.
And I can tell you that stream is just barely letting up a little bit now as it gets really, really late here in this country. It is past 11:00 p.m. right now in Poland. But just masses of people have come here into central Warsaw to the presidential palace to pay their respects to Lech Kaczynski, but also of course to commemorate all the others who died so tragically. Really a lot of the leaders of this country who died so tragically, really a lot of the leaders of this country, who died so tragically in that plane crash in western Russia, Don.
LEMON: Frederik Pleitgen, thank you -- 100 polish officials, the president, the first lady and senior military leaders. You see the memorial that is shaping up there. Frederik Pleitgen in Warsaw, thank you.
After nine terms, a Michigan Democrat says he's done in D.C
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. BART STUPAK (D), MICHIGAN: I will always serve the people of the first district, but I have chosen not to continue to serve as their congressman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Could he be the first casualty of the health care reform battle? Maybe a November casualty, in April. Palin, Gingrich, Steele, on and on. A Republican who's who at the party's big conference down in New Orleans. Tonight, we might get an idea who is leading the GOP into 2012. We'll go there live in a moment. Become part of our conversation tonight. Some of you are already weighing in about what we're going to talk about in just a few minutes here. Confederate month, a black confederate soldier? Someone says, we should honor that and we're going to talk to them live here on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: It all seemed to happen at once. Apparently Friday was the day to announce your retirement in Washington, D.C. Justice John Paul Stevens announced he'll step down after nearly 35 years on the Supreme Court. Imagine that, 35 years. This gives the president another chance to shape the court. But it also means a bitter confirmation battle could be ahead. I think you can guarantee that.
Michigan's Bart Stupak, an anti-abortion Democrat, said he's retiring after nine terms in Congress. Stupak took heat from both sides in the health care reform debate. He ultimately voted in favor of the bill. So you got to think Republicans are talking about all that at their Southern Leadership Conference this weekend in New Orleans. And you we look at it live, there you see Michael Steele, the party chair, talking right now. He's at the podium. We want to talk to this person, CNN chief political correspondent and "State of the Union" host Candy Crowley is down in New Orleans right now. Let's talk about Justice Stevens first. We see Michael Steele back there. What can we expect in the coming weeks when it comes to -- when it comes to the -- Mr. Stevens?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think right now what you're seeing is already the Republicans and the Democrats pushing back and forth, sort of trying to set the table for the president's choice. Obviously the real activity is going to be behind the scenes at the White House where the president is making his selection from a list of ten.
But I can assure you that Republicans on Capitol Hill and Democrats on Capitol Hill are making their preferences known to whoever the White House is listening to, because that's the jockeying for position. So while we're waiting for who the president is picking, lots of people are trying to kind of influence that pick by either saying, this is a great person, or this is someone we couldn't possibly support.
LEMON: After the health care debate, Senator John McCain and many others said there would be no more support of anything, that they would battle the Democrats tooth and nail. So listen, there has been some question about Michael Steele, whether or not he -- how long he's going to be the chair of the party. You and I talked about that. How is he received there? Is this any indication of what his future might be?
CROWLEY: I'm sorry, just say the last part. LEMON: I said, how is he received? He just finished his speech. Candy, I know it's loud there. How was he received and is it an indication I'm sure of his future with the party?
CROWLEY: He was pretty well received. I have to tell you there were not -- there were lots of empty chairs, but it is hard to know -- we're in New Orleans. It is the afternoon. And lots of people getting out and partying. They have been here for three days. But I will tell you that he was well received by those who were here. Didn't have Sarah Palin size crowd but did have good reception and he did address his problems actually. He opened up by saying, one of the things I knew going into the chairmanship is that I couldn't please everybody. But now what I've learned is I could make everybody mad.
And then sort of toward the end he talked about how Republicans should try not to get distracted, that they ought to keep their eyes on the prize in 2010 and he said I know that I have added to the distractions. Everybody learns things and then you move on.
He got a round of applause for that. That was his specific response. I have to tell you, I have talked to a lot of people here over the past couple of days. I don't find any groundswell at all for getting rid of Michael Steele at this point.
LEMON: Yeah. I was going to ask, always a Candy moment, something that you observed that most other journalists don't observe. Is there a Candy moment, anything that's special to you down there in New Orleans?
CROWLEY: Well, you know, I think at this point, it is -- what sort of surprised me is we have these huge elections coming up, 2010. I mean, you know, if you were a Republican, and you want to use their favorite phrase, take the country back, you would be focusing on taking the House back. You would be talking about taking the Senate back. This has been so much about 2012 one of the reasons being that President Obama, of course, is one of their favorite targets.
It has been so much that Haley Barbour, who is head of the Republican Governors Association from nearby Mississippi had to say, OK, everybody, I just want you to know that we really need to keep our eyes on 2010 because that's the next thing coming down the line. So it has been so kind of wrought with presidential overlay that it is almost like they forgot about 2010, that they seem to be getting back on track a little.
LEMON: I would imagine that's going to be a topic on "State of the Union" tomorrow for you, Candy.
CROWLEY: Yes as a matter of fact, Barbour is tomorrow, our lead guest on "State of the Union." We talk about a lot of things, about the Supreme Court justice nomination, what he thinks Republicans will do, how he thinks the elections are shaping up in 2010, and what Medicare and Medicaid expenses are going to do to states. And then we also have the co-creator and one of the lead actors in a new series on HBO that is going to premiere on Sunday night. It is called "Treme" and it's about New Orleans, post Katrina New Orleans as seen through the eyes of some of the musicians and street musicians and how bringing the culture back. So it was a fascinating discussion, a political discussion as well. HBO, we should add, is somewhat of a sister network, all of us working for Time Warner.
LEMON: Candy, thank you. It's always a pleasure when you join us. I wish I could be down there in New Orleans with you but I will be watching you tomorrow.
CROWLEY: It's great.
LEMON: Thanks, Candy.
Police come hard at anti-government protesters. And when all this is over, more than a dozen people were dead, details just ahead here on CNN.
And if you think carry-on baggage is a cheaper way to fly, your wallet is in for a rude awakening. CEO of Spirit Airlines joins us next to explain why you can fly cheap, but your luggage pays full price.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: It is a weekend, but there is a lot going on. Poland is in mourning today after an early morning plane crash in Russia killed the country's president, Lech Kaczynski. Also among the 100 dead, the Polish first lady and many Polish military leaders. The delegation had gone to Russia to mark the 70th anniversary of a massacre of Polish POWs in World War II. The Polish military plane crashed in heavy fog while approaching the airport in Smolensk.
President Barack Obama wants an investigation into the explosion at the Upper Big Branch Coal Mine in West Virginia. The worst coal mining disaster in the U.S. in 40 years. Overnight, search crews found the bodies of four more miners, a total of 29 people were killed.
In Bangkok, more violent clashes between Thai police and government protesters. Fifteen people were killed today including a cameraman for the Reuters News Agency. Nearly 500 were hurt. Protesters had been in the streets for weeks. They want the prime minister to resign.
So next time you fly on Spirit Airlines, leave the carry-on at home. All right? Or I guess if you're checking it, it wouldn't be carry-on. It could cost you up to 45 bucks to stow it in the overhead. The discount carrier caused major turbulence this week when it became the first to impose a carry fee -- a carry-on fee which takes effect August 1st. After that, it might cost more to fly your luggage than yourself. What's next? Pay toilets? Don't laugh. One European airline is planning to do it. Don't babies fly free on your lap? Right. I'll have to ask Ben Baldanza that. He is the president and CEO of Spirit Airlines. Thanks for joining us. Do babies fly free if they're on your lap?
BEN BALDANZE, SPIRIT AIRLINES: Babies under 2 fly free. LEMON: What if my luggage is under 2-years-old?
BALDANZA: We treat luggage a little different than human beings, that's for sure.
LEMON: All right. This hasn't been the most popular move. You know that. People are going to say, what were you thinking? What were you thinking?
BALDANZA: Well as we all know, over the last couple of years, boarding an airplane has become a very frustrating and often crowded place because people are bringing more and more on board in order to avoid the checked bag fee.
We decided to address this issue by lowering our base fares, lowering checked bag fees and letting people with bags board the airplane first. So now even if you do carry on a bag on Spirit after August 1st, your total fare will be the same as or lower than before and you'll get on the airplane first and more people will check bags which will make the boarding easier for everyone.
We think everyone wins in this strategy. And certainly if you only look at the fee, it looks outrageous. But if you look at the total proposition, it is pretty good.
LEMON: Let's explain this to people because you're saying there is sort of a misconception about what your actually doing. And by the way, it doesn't bother me when people try to get things on as much as they can, because I do. I just don't like it when people put their suit jackets or their coats in the overhead because you can hold that, right? It makes room for other people.
OK so listen, you're charged -- some fares are as low as a penny. And basically what you're doing, you're breaking the fees up that you incur as an airline. And you say it is cheaper that way than the old way where there is just a bulk fee. Explain it to the viewers.
BALDANZA: Well it is cheaper because customers can decide what we they want to pay for and what they don't have to pay for. It may sound crazy that some people are willing to travel without a carry-on. But it also might sound crazy to some people that somebody would get a hamburger at McDonald's and not get French fries, right? But McDonald's sells just hamburgers.
And so if even just some people decide not to carry on or choose to check their bag instead of carry on, it is going to make the boarding process easier for everyone and faster and make sure when you get on with your carry-on, there is going to be space in the bin above your seat and we found that's a real frustration.
LEMON: I understand that. I'm trying to get you to explain to the viewer why you think it is cheaper to pay for the bag. And I'm saying that because you say you're breaking the fees up. This is the fee for this, this is the fee to be at the gate, this is the fee in order to get a ticket. So you're breaking the fees up instead of having it not explained and just having a big price there, one big price.
BALDANZA: It is really simple math when we have done this. Because we have lowered our fares by $40 or more, and the fee to carry the bag on is either $20 or $30. So you bring the bag and you still are going to save around $10. You don't bring the bag, and you save $40 or more. So that's why we say it is cheaper.
LEMON: OK. You know, sometimes people hear these things and, that's a hair-brained idea and then everybody does the same thing. Everybody follows suit. Do you think that will happen?
BALDANZA: Well, you know, we'll have to see. Can I also address the $45 issue? Because that's been reported a lot.
LEMON: Go for it, that's why we have you here.
BALDANZA: Yes, that's great. The basic fee to carry on the bag after August 1st is $30, $20 if you're a member of our fare club. The $45 fee is for anyone who decides not to stop at a kiosk at the airport or the ticket counter and go to the gate. And the reason we charge a little more for that is we are going to have to transact that bag at the gate and what we're trying to do is avoid gate delays so we don't want to do that. So no one has to pay the $45.
LEMON: So, Ben, I'm going to tell you something. So I think that what you're doing, it may be cheaper and it may make a lot of sense. It's not for me to say. But you might want to do a better job of explaining it or have a campaign because people just see that you're charging for carry-on and they go what's wrong with this guy, right?
BALDANZA: Well that's one of the reasons we're accepting these invitations and appreciate the opportunity. Can I say one more thing, please? We're been checking our fares against other carriers after August 1st. And what we find is even after you join our fare club and even after you pay the carry-on bag fees, in most cases, we're still 30 to 50 percent less than a typical legacy airline.
So while people want to get excited about the fee, when they look at the total cost of their travel, more often than not, Spirit is going to be the best value going for them.
LEMON: And I don't know what your record is as a CEO or a boss, but I like your personality. It seems like it would be fun to work for you. Thank you. Thank you very much.
BALDANZA: Thank you very much.
LEMON: Ben Baldanza is the president and CEO of Spirit Airlines. We appreciate it. See everybody is all mad, but we don't know what's behind it. So he explained himself.
Anyway, don't expect our political analyst Roland Martin to be whistling Dixie anytime soon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: We're celebrating people. And had they walked on, you and I would not be sitting here right now. You and I would be in the fields right now, as property, as opposed to being free individuals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Roland and a lot of people around the country fired up over a Virginia decision to honor the confederacy this month.
And it stood for 39 years, but it will only take about a minute or less to bring it crashing down. We're talking about Texas Stadium, about to become nothing but a memory.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Our "CNN Hero" of the week is a big-hearted book worm who helps abused and homeless children escape their suffering. McKenzie Berra lives with an agonizing and incurable disease, but spends her time easing the pain of other children by sharing her secret for relief, reading. She's just 16 years old.
(CNN HEROES)
LEMON: To learn more about McKenzie's state-of-the-art pain treatment or to nominate someone you think is changing the world, go to CNN.com/heroes and you'll be able to do it there.
Listen, so there has been a lot of talk this week, a lot of controversy about what -- the Civil War, the proclamation about the Civil War, and about the Confederacy and honoring it. Well, we're going to have some Civil War re-enactors, and this man. He's a black Civil War re-enactor. He also supports the Confederate flag. He'll talk to us about why he does that, why he believes in it. Him and some other Civil War re-enactors, coming up. We'll have a great discussion. Don't go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: A huge controversy rising out of Virginia this week out of a war that ended 145 years ago. Governor Bob McDonnell declared April Confederate History Month, but left out any mention of his -- of slavery in his proclamation. Civil rights groups blasted him for it, accusing him of twisting history. President Barack Obama called it an unacceptable omission.
It really fired up CNN political analyst, Roland Martin. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB MCDONNELL, GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA: I'm glad you came to discuss the events of the day. A year ago when I was just a candidate for governor I talked about a vision of having Virginia be the energy capital of the east coast and it would take a comprehensive approach to energy development that we need to use all of Virginia's natural resources -- coal, natural gas, nuclear, offshore, wind, solar, biomass -- all of these need to be tapped into to affect that vision and to pursue this goal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Apologize for that. That is the wrong sound bite. That is the governor, but he's talking about something -- the governor, he apologized, as we said, and then he said he would -- he'd put it into the proclamation afterwards.
Again, let's listen to CNN analyst, Roland Martin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: These were American terrorists. These were individuals who were committing a sin against humanity, who wanted to keep the system of oppression, degradation, and absolute denial of opportunities for African-Americans. We're celebrating people -- and had they won, Don, you and I would not be sitting here right now. You and I would be in the fields right now as property, as opposed to being free individuals. And so that's like somebody saying, oh, we're going to celebrate the Nazi soldiers by saying, they were only doing their job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That was CNN's Roland Martin.
So Confederate History Month is going on in a number of southern states and it is primetime for re-enactors who want to bring the battlefield back to life.
We have a whole panel of Johnny Rebs joining us now. Tim and Lisa Knight are here with me in Atlanta, and then there's H.K. Edgerton, live in Charlotte, North Carolina.
Good to see all of you. Don't be nervous. We're just talking. People want to hear from all of you. So thank you very much.
What do you think of the controversy that is going on with the governor and with the proclamation?
TIM KNIGHT, CIVIL WAR RE-ENACTOR: As far as for the state of Georgia is concerned, the proclamation here is to celebrate the Confederate Heritage Month. That's representing everybody that was a part of it, both -- whites, African-Americans, Hispanics, Indians. It's not just to represent one particular culture. I don't understand exactly, as far as Virginia portions of it, about leaving out slavery, but as far as the state of Georgia, its concern represents everybody who participated during that event.
LEMON: Do you feel the same way, Lisa?
LISA KNIGHT, CIVIL WAR RE-ENACTOR: I understand it is a very hot button topic. It is something that strikes a nerve with many people. But it is not something that should be demonized or that should be excluded as part of our history, because it is very much part of our history. It is the only time where we fought internally, where we had strife of that type. And I think that if we're not careful and don't honor that, and don't think through that, we shuffle it under the rug, then we're neglecting part of our American heritage.
LEMON: As a southerner, believe me, I get southern pride. Do you understand what the Civil War means to especially African- Americans who were, you know, slaves during that time. And for them and for the people in the North and I guess in the South, that's what the war was about, to end slavery, and the South did not want to end that. Do you get that?
TIM KNIGHT: I understand that part. But there's a lot of things that our history books, and they leave out. It is not just strictly over the issue of just slavery. 93,000 African-Americans participated on the side of the Confederacy. They don't bring that up.
LEMON: Those people participated. But they were not necessarily willing participants.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And at the time, African-Americans could join the Confederacy, join the army, it was too late. It was 1865. So many didn't -- wouldn't -- they weren't considered enough of a person to even join the army to be allowed to join the army and fight in the war.
TIM KNIGHT: Well, it is in between 10,000 to 15,000 that actually carried arms.
LEMON: Let's bring in H.K. Edgerton in Charlotte, North Carolina.
H.K., you would know about this, because this is what you do. What do you say to this, about African-Americans, especially the slavery part of it, because you can understand, a lot of people don't like this celebration because to them it means slavery, they feel that they would be slaves had the South won.
H.K. EDGERTON, BLACK CONFEDERATE RE-ENACTOR: Well, no, let's back up some of this. First of all, I would like to talk about some of the things that Mr. Martin talked about. He called the honorable people in the South, some of the most honorable people in the country, American terrorists, and said that if the South had won the war, we would be in the fields now. That's poppy cook and playing on the feelings of people who want to say slavery, and end all dialogue.
It is a great thing that the government of Virginia did when he declare Confederate History Month because now we have the opportunity to tell the Southern side, which is never told, with the advent of the industrial revolution.
And I'm very surprised about, in Virginia, because in Virginia, up until the days of the war, those men in the legislatures of Virginia working very hard to try to figure out a way to get real emancipation to the slaves. They knew -- white folks in the South knew that a man was not free unless he had an ability to take care of himself, unless he had land, a home for shelter, and some money, and possibly some slaves of his own.
I resent the fact that this man -- I don't know where Mr. Martin is from, the North or where he's from -- but it is the same virtuosity that these folks give to the North. That virtuosity doesn't belong to the North.
LEMON: I believe Roland is from the South. And I don't want you to take it too literally. I think what Roland meant was, had the South won, that African-Americans would not be in the same position that they are now, at least --
EDGERTON: Yes, he --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Let me finish. I let you talk. I'll give you time. At least, when it comes to civil rights, because that's what the Civil War was about. The South, let's just be honest, did not want slavery to end. That was the main focus for the Civil War. And that's when secession came about. They wanted to secede from the union if slavery was abolished. That's what the Civil War was about.
EDGERTON: No, sir. I disagree with you. Let's talk about some real evidence.
LEMON: Listen, am I to believe --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Hang on. Let me ask you a question.
EDGERTON: No, you said what you had to say.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I let you talk for a long time, Mr. Edgerton. I'll give you your choice. Am I to believe the history book that, what I've read about, what the history books say, what every other historian says, my own ears and my own eyes, or am I to believe what you say and what Civil War re-enactors say?
EDGERTON: Let's just go to that. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about the establishment of the public school system in 1965 and how the Northern schoolteachers came here to demonize and divide and separate black folks and white folks here in the South.
But more importantly, let's talk about Abraham Lincoln and his Coren Amendment. If the Southern men wanted to maintain the economic institution of slavery, they would have went along with Lincoln's support of the Coren Amendment. And basically what Lincoln said is that if the South would agree to the tax increases that the North was proposing, that Congress would never have the ability to write an amendment to end the economic institution of slavery.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: OK, right there -- hang on one second.
EDGERTON: Let me finish my thought.
LEMON: I'm not cutting you off to get a point in.
That's what you're doing.
LEMON: I'm cutting you off because I need to take a break. We'll come back and discuss more.
We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Welcome back, everyone, to our conversation. Virginia's governor opened up some old wounds by declaring April Confederate History Month and leaving slavery out of the equation. We have been talking with a panel of three Civil War re-enactors, Tim and Lisa Knight, they're here in Atlanta, and then H.K. Edgerton joins us by satellite.
I'm sorry. I had to take a break there. You were saying.
EDGERTON: Are you talking to me, sir?
LEMON: Yes.
EDGERTON: See, here is the whole thing about it. Having Confederate History Month and talking about leaving out slavery, the thing about it is, when you have Confederate History Month, we start talking about the king of things that took place around America, you can't leave out slavery. You have to talk about the place of honor and dignity that African-Americans, free and indentured, earned under the Christian cross of St. Andrew. I'm talking about Confederate flag. Hollywood don't tell this story. Other folks don't tell this story. And it is one of the reasons why you need to have Confederate History Month.
My question is, why are these folks afraid to have the Southern side told? They don't want to tell you about these things. They -- we talk about Black History Month. I don't know how you can separate black history from Confederate history in the first place. Do they ever tell --
LEMON: OK, can I get in here now, please?
EDGERTON: Yes. Go ahead.
LEMON: I don't think people think that it shouldn't be taught in history books or people shouldn't learn about Confederate history. I think there is a concern when people -- when you celebrate, when it is believed that people are celebrating Confederate history, because when you celebrate that, you are -- it is an insult to African-Americans, an insult to people who were slaves, when one of the main reasons, although you don't believe it was the whole reason, one of the main reasons behind the war was to keep people enslaved. And that's why people think it is insulting. Black History Month is one month out of a year. Go ahead.
EDGERTON: Well, talking to me? Am I on?
LEMON: Yes. Still talking to you.
EDGERTON: Yes, see that's the sad part about this thing. The (INAUDIBLE) of these folks, including black folks, who presume to assume that that slave somehow was just a man, all he did was to pick cotton and beans and sugar cane. He was a very intelligent man. This man could do everything.
LEMON: All right, Mr. Edgerton.
EDGERTON: Huh?
LEMON: OK, Mr. Edgerton.
Anyway, let's bring back -- I can't let you go on with that. That part is going to upset me when you talk about slavery. No one wants to be a slave, black, white or whatever.
EDGERTON: I never said that.
LEMON: It is an insult. No one wants to be a slave. And to talk about the intelligence, that's besides the point. To have someone enslaved, to own someone and control someone, it doesn't matter how smart they are, you still own and control them. They're not free. I don't get your point on that one. I don't understand.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I want to bring in these guys, Lisa and Tim, again.
The reason I don't think anyone is saying, even Roland, anyone is saying that we should not learn about the Confederacy and not learn about the history of this country, it is part of the history of the country. I understand that. I am a southerner. I grew up in the South. I know what it is about. You don't think it is insulting and hurtful to some people when you celebrate this type of event? Go ahead.
LISA KNIGHT: I think your choice of the word "celebrate" is a slanted word. I think we are -- our goal is to educate. We are not celebrating an atrocity where hundreds of thousands of Americans on both sides were killed.
LEMON: Even a proclamation, it may be a right to celebrate, but even a proclamation, some people are still insulted by that.
LISA KNIGHT: I'm not sure why that would be. Because of any major conflict, anytime where American blood was spilled, that would be something for us to note, something for us to reflect on, and say this is something that happened that was significant. For us to celebrate, no. And that's not what we do. But we do educate. We do re-live. We do pull people in and help them understand as much as we can what really happened. LEMON: So here is the question. Here's what I think. It should be in the history books, and it is. I learned about it in school. And it's in the history books, from all the way up from elementary school to college. You get the history of this country and you know about slavery. Having a proclamation and a whole time to learn about it when you don't include slavery and denouncing slavery, are you saying that we should have had slaves? Do you believe we should are have had slaves? Or do you believe slavery should exist in this country?
TIM KNIGHT: I don't believe slavery should exist anywhere in the world. It still does. But the simple fact of the matter -- I'm not saying it was right or wrong. But from 200 years ago to 2,000 years ago, it was a part of not just this country, but every nation on the planet.
LEMON: Agreed with that.
LISA KNIGHT: And there were African-American slave owners in the South.
TIM KNIGHT: Right.
LEMON: Right.
LISA KNIGHT: So it's not a black/white issue. Yet, slavery, as an institution, is an abomination. We all agree on that. And we're not celebrating the institution of slavery.
LEMON: In your group, are there any black re-enactors?
LISA KNIGHT: Not currently, but we have had but black re- enactors. Not currently.
TIM KNIGHT: We had three different members.
LISA KNIGHT: But on our roster right now, we don't currently have any. We only have about 40 people on roster, right now.
LEMON: So, Mr. Edgerton, I'm going to ask you the same question I asked them. Do you think there should be slavery in this country? Do you agree with slavery?
EDGERTON: Absolutely, not. I'm not here defending the economic institution of slavery. What I am defending is the fact that you want to take history and paint one side a virtuous side.
LEMON: Not me. I don't want to paint anything. I'm just facilitating the conversation.
EDGERTON: When I say you, I don't mean you personally. What I'm saying is the folks in America -- see, the North folks and the southern people have done a great injustice here. The whole world was complicit in the economic institution of slavery. Nobody talked about those Africans who went into my grandmother's village and snatched her out from under her mother's arms and put her on the shores of West Africa and put her into slavery. Those Africans were just as guilty. New York, you and Mr. Martin --
LEMON: Mr. Edgerton --
EDGERTON: Yes?
LEMON: Mr. Edgerton, I have to go because of time purposes. We only have a few minutes left on the air. And there are other things we have to do. I appreciate this. Maybe we can get you back and we'll continue this discussion.
But I also learned about Africa's role in slavery in elementary school. And I'm not that young. That was back in the '70s. So I disagree with you that we are not taught about that. that's in the history books and we talked about it before.
Thank you all for joining us.
Again, as I have said, and I think as Roland has said, everyone has the right to protest, to celebrate, to re-enact, to do what they want, but to leave out one part of this is disingenuous. And I think --
LISA KNIGHT: And we would agree with you on that.
(CROSSTALK)
EDGERTON: I disagree.
LEMON: Thank you. Thank you.
EDGERTON: I disagree to it.
LEMON: I appreciate you all joining us.
You're watching CNN. You're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(FIT NATION)
LEMON: I'm Don Lemon at the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta. Thank you so much for watching.
Your comments have been great. Boy, that was an interesting conversation.
So I'll be here at 7:00 p.m. Eastern and we'll have the results of the Republican straw poll from the party's leadership conference in northern New Orleans. See you in a bit.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
