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Government Accuses Goldman Sachs of Fraud; Too Liberal to Judge?; CNN Hero of the Week

Aired April 16, 2010 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: All right. It's just past 2:00 on the East Coast. Here's what I've got "On the Rundown."

An alleged conflict of interest that cost investors a billion dollars gets Goldman Sachs smacked with fraud charges from the government. I'll tell you about the case in a moment.

President Obama's nominee to the nation's second highest court -- second highest court -- sets off a Senate slugfest. Republicans say Professor Goodwin Liu is a vicious, way-left liberal who would be a loose-cannon activist judge.

Is he? A fellow law professor joins us to talk about today's confirmation hearing.

And is there a doctor in the house? No? Well, how about a nurse?

As tens of millions join the insurance rolls, nurses are looking to take a bigger role in health care in America. The American Medical Association seems to think that is the wrong prescription.

We're going to talk to some folks in the heart of this fight.

But first, let me tell you about Goldman Sachs. This is a big development.

The Securities and Exchange Commission, which regulates trade and finance in this country, has charged Goldman Sachs with contributing -- or perpetrating fraud as part of what we have come to realize is the financial collapse.

Allan Chernoff and Christine Romans are following the story very closely.

First, let me just give you an idea of how this has happened. Here's how the system, according to the SEC, should have worked.

Goldman Sachs was creating pools of investments, so you took a mortgage with the bank, the bank sold that mortgage to another entity, and at some point Goldman Sachs was responsible for taking all of those mortgages, pooling them together, taking a piece of the action, and selling it off to other investors. Now, this is a skill, because some of the mortgages in that pool would have been good, some of them would have been less good. They were all subprime. They were all those loans given to people, perhaps not with the greatest of interest.

But the bottom line is, they were sold as investment pools, and they could have gone up or could have gone down. That was what should have happened.

Here is what the Securities and Exchange Commission says did happen. This is what their allegations are.

Goldman Sachs did the same thing. They pooled these mortgages and sold them to people, but they had an outside adviser, also another client, determine what went into this pool, what sort of houses went into this pool, and that client was betting against the mortgage market. They were betting that the securities in this -- that were being sold would actually fail.

They were actually investing in them in a way that would cause them to fail. Those got sold to other investors who the SEC said were allegedly duped because those investments were designed to fail. The loss is about $1 billion.

Let's bring in Allan Chernoff and Christine Romans for perhaps a clearer explanation of what exactly is going on. They both have been working the phones, working sources, talking to people.

Allan, you have received a very short response from Goldman Sachs, but fill in some of the blanks here.

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: OK, Ali. Let's just quickly review what occurred here.

Goldman Sachs had two groups of customers. On the one hand, as you mentioned, investors in these mortgages, the subprime mortgages. Not all that high quality, but nonetheless, these people were betting that the housing market -- and this is all back in 2007 -- the housing market would be OK, that the mortgages would be paid off, and their investments would rise in value.

On the other hand, Goldman was also working with a hedge fund, Paulson & Company, that was certain housing was going into the tank. They were betting that housing and mortgages would go down.

So, that's OK. Goldman can play both sides of the fences here. But, the problem is, according to the SEC, that the group of mortgages put together for the first investors, that pile of mortgages, well, they're saying that the second investor, the hedge fund betting that they were going to decline, that hedge fund was actually selecting the mortgages that would be in the pool that the first group was investing in. And it wasn't revealed to the first group.

So, that's where the fraud lies. That's the real conflict that we're talking about --

VELSHI: Very difficult to get --

CHERNOFF: -- according to the SEC.

VELSHI: Very difficult to get an analogy that people who aren't in this business understand. I don't know if this is like a mechanic telling -- you know, advising someone to buy a car that they know is going to have to come in for repair, but basically it's someone who is actively working against that investment, yet somehow gaining from the sale of that investment to unsuspecting investors.

I don't know, Christine, take a shot at it.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: You're the investor and you just don't know. I mean, it's just simply something that you don't know what the motives are behind the selection of those subprime mortgages in that CDO. So, you're absolutely right.

And you're right that it's hard to make an analogy, Ali, because it is such a clubby and unique industry, isn't it? And remember, even a few years before this, CDOs were the -- they still are the Wild West.

VELSHI: And that's collateralized debt obligations. That's what you call when you bundle all these mortgage-backed securities together and you sell them out. The shorthand for that is CDOs, and that's what this is revolving around.

ROMANS: That's right.

VELSHI: All right.

CHERNOFF: Ali, it's almost as if those cars were being delivered by used car salesmen who knew that there were problems with the cars. That might be the finish to your analogy that you were referring to.

VELSHI: Right.

CHERNOFF: By the way, we should also give Goldman its due. And the company does have a statement out saying, "The SEC's charges are completely unfounded in law and fact, and we will vigorously contest them and defend the firm and its reputation."

So, Goldman saying, hey, we did nothing wrong.

VELSHI: Christine, you heard from Eliot Spitzer's office?

ROMANS: Yes, that's right. Eliot Spitzer, the former New York governor, of course, known as the sheriff of Wall Street when he was the attorney general of New York, he basically said, look, this might be a new phase, a new page for the SEC. He's been very critical of the SEC, but he and other Goldman critics are saying this is coming down -- it's coming down strong and hard on, you know, the gilded Goldman Sachs.

VELSHI: Yes.

ROMANS: This is the company that has managed to squeak through this whole financial crisis with its CEO standing up saying, you know, I apologize, but we didn't really do anything wrong.

VELSHI: Yes.

ROMANS: And it's been trying to really hold on to its reputation through all of this, even as people on Main Street have been saying this just doesn't smell right to us. It doesn't smell right that this company was at the core of these investments and even was bailed out by the government and paid back its bailout, but seemed to be so quickly making money again when the rest of the country was reeling. So, this is not the last chapter in the Goldman saga, I would say.

VELSHI: All right. Thanks to both of you.

We'll continue covering this story at CNN. We'll get to the bottom of it. And CNNMoney.com as well. We'll have detailed information.

Christine and Allan, thanks very much.

All right. The supreme Senate battle that is still to come. But we're getting a little preview today of what the Supreme Court battle is going to look like for a new judge.

President Obama's nominee to our highest appeal court, the gentleman you're seeing walking down the hall away from us right now, just shaking hands, he is not the top choice of Republicans. They've had some choice words for him today.

Much ado about Goodwin Liu, and we'll tell you why next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELSHI: I suppose there are two kinds of news in the world, the kind you know is coming and the kind you don't. We all know there are going to be fireworks when President Obama's next Supreme Court nominee, whoever that person is, goes before the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Today we got a bit of a preview. A different story though.

Goodwin Liu is not a high court nominee. He's the president's choice to fill a seat on the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. Those are the second highest courts.

Liu is 39 years old. He's a 39-year-old law professor at the University of California, Berkeley. He has no judicial experience outside a Supreme Court clerkship. It's a serious job, but he has a decidedly liberal bent. He's a supporter of affirmative action, same- sex marriage, and a critic of what is called strict constructionism, trying to apply the Constitution exactly the way the framers wrote it.

Pretty much everything I've just said puts him at odds with Senate Republicans. They really don't like what some call a living Constitution, and Liu may have surprised them when he said this. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PROFESSOR GOODWIN LIU, FEDERAL APPEALS COURT JUDGE NOMINEE: I don't like the term, and in the book we reject the term, because it suggests the Constitution is a malleable document that can be read to have words in it that really are not in it. And I think we take the position that the Constitution is a written text for a special reason. And that is because the text was meant to be the enduring thing that judges would have to apply in the course of deciding cases, and not, you know, something that's extra -- you know, outside of the text and not something that they would invent on the fly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELSHI: Let's talk more about this nomination fight and the ones to come with Michael Avery. He teaches constitutional law at Suffolk University in Boston. He happens to know Goodwin Liu fairly well.

Professor Avery, thank you for being with us.

PROFESSOR MICHAEL AVERY, SUFFOLK UNIVERSITY: Thank you. I don't actually know Professor Liu personally, but I've read his work.

VELSHI: Oh, you know of him. All right.

AVERY: I've read a great deal about him.

VELSHI: All right. First of all, a characterization of him. I mean, we tend to these days describe people in judicial circuits as liberal or conservative, or constructionist or activist.

How would you describe Goodwin Liu?

AVERY: Well, first of all, I think it's time to be honest about the fact that every judge engages in interpretation, whether he's a liberal or a conservative. The question is how he goes about it.

VELSHI: OK.

AVERY: And Professor Liu's writing shows that he's very sophisticated, very nuanced, that he has a commitment to democratic values, which means that he respects the judgment of the legislature. And he thinks courts need to work with legislatures and interpret what the legislature does.

VELSHI: All right. Tell me -- that statement that we just heard from him about him not liking the idea of a living Constitution, tell me what that means in lay terms.

AVERY: Well, what that means is that he does have a sophisticated view. In other words, he doesn't think judges on the bench are free to do whatever they want, or free to do whatever society today thinks is appropriate.

He thinks that they're tied to the words of the Constitution. But I think he also thinks that the Constitution is -- you know, it's not a set of instructions for assembling furniture from IKEA. There are vague terms. There are terms that are not capable of precise understanding. And so judges have to engage in some interpretation, but he ties that to the constitutional text.

VELSHI: Now, part of the reason we're having this discussion is because this is a 39-year-old man, highly regarded in judicial circles. And some people say that this could be a guy who grows into a Supreme Court nomination at some point. I mean, is that -- are we overreaching here?

AVERY: Well, you know, it's always -- it's way too early to tell. But the thing that's interesting about Professor Liu, here's somebody who graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Stanford, Rhodes Scholar, editor of "The Yale Law Review." And very significant conservatives, legal conservatives, are supporting this nomination, like John Yoo, the author of "The Torture Memo," or Ken Starr, who went after President Clinton like it was duck hunting season. Both of these men have come out and said that they think Professor Liu will be a very good judge.

VELSHI: And what do you make of that? Why do you think that's happening? Because he's very clearly -- he has liberal perspectives on the law.

AVERY: He has liberal perspectives, but he has those liberal perspectives within the context of a constitutional understanding that has been developed by the court over the last more than 100 years. He's not going off on some tangent of his own. He's refused to do so in his writing on many occasions when important issues are raised. And this is somebody who is a brilliant thinker, whose views are anchored in the historical understanding that the Constitution has received from the Supreme Court and from academics and from others in this country.

VELSHI: Well, then, we should all watch the nomination process very, very closely, both for what it means for Goodwin Liu and the country, and what it means for what's going to happen during the Supreme Court nomination process.

Professor Michael Avery at Suffolk University in Boston.

Thank you for joining us.

AVERY: Thank you.

VELSHI: All right. Coming up next, living away from other people, from towns, sometimes even from cars. Is there some family experience that is unimaginable? Well, it's abuse, incest, rape. But there's a hero in the midst, and you're going to meet her.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELSHI: The cries of battered women and children in rural America are often unheard. One woman is helping break the silence, giving a voice to those victims.

Her name is Wynona Ward, and she is our CNN Hero of the Week. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WYNONA WARD, CNN HERO: When I was growing up on a rural back road, family violence was an accepted way of life.

This is my mother, and I'm the baby here. And my father and my brother Richard and my sister Colleen (ph).

My father would commonly abuse all of us. He raped me and beat my mother and my other siblings. When the neighbors heard screaming coming from our home, they just turned their heads.

For domestic violence victims in rural areas, they can be very devastating. They're out there on these back roads with no access to in-town services. Many of them do not have telephones. Some of them do not have a driver's license for an automobile. So we go to them.

My name is Wynona Ward.

The turning point for me was when a child in my family revealed that she had been abused by my father and my brother. I just said, "This has to stop."

When I graduated from law school, I was 48 years old.

Good morning, my dear.

I go to people's homes, give them in-home consultation, provide them with free legal services and transportation to and from courtrooms. I don't want children to have to go through what I did as a child. I want to see my clients become empowered. I can understand them, and they know that I will be there to protect them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELSHI: Wynona Ward has helped nearly 10,000 victims of domestic violence, driving 30,000 miles a year doing it.

To see the inspiring story of one woman she's helped, or to nominate someone you think is changing the world, go to CNN.com/heroes.

Let's have a look at some of the top stories we're covering here at CNN this hour.

Former Los Angeles Police Department chief Daryl Gates died today at the age of 83. His 14 years at the LAPD included the 1992 deadly riots. Those who knew him say he cared deeply about policing and his death marks the end of an era at the LAPD.

Banking giant Goldman Sachs is facing major charges. The Securities and Exchange Commission has accused the company of holding back information that cost investors more than $1 billion. The government says Goldman didn't reveal that one of their hedge fund clients chose bad portfolios for investors that the client bet would fail. Goldman Sachs stated today, "The charges are completely unfounded in law and fact and we will vigorous contest them." That's a quote from Goldman Sachs.

And today's the last day to mail in your 2010 U.S. Census form. If you plan to mail yours late or not at all, you can expect a knock on your door from Census workers in May and July.

Volcanic ash is turning into a major problem for travelers across the world right now. We're going to go "Off the Radar" in a moment with Chad. He's live from the Weather Center with a volcano ash forecast when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(WEATHER REPORT)

VELSHI: Is there a doctor in the house? Increasingly, these days, more hospitals are saying, is there a nurse in the house?

We'll discuss that in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELSHI: The change is coming to the health care system, major changes, 32 million more Americans are going to get health insurance and that means far more people going to clinics and doctors' offices. That's a good thing. But some people are worried about a shortage of doctors. Twenty eight states are taking a look at expanding the role of nurses. Some nurse practitioners even want to be called doctor.

Now reportedly, the American Medical Association completely disagrees with this. They told the Associated Press that it will actually endanger and confuse patients. But check this out. By 2015, most new nurse practitioners will hold doctorates in nursing practice. And that's according to a goal set by nursing educators.

We have constantly told you about how nursing as a profession is in great demand. There's increasing demand for nurses in this country. That was before health care reform came around and before those 32 million more people were added to the rolls.

Let's -- we've reached out to the American Medical Association today to be on this show. They were not able to make it, but we're going to talk with nurse practitioner Scott Johnson. Scott's with us now from Orlando.

Scott, thanks very much for being with us.

SCOTT JOHNSON, NURSE PRACTITIONER: Thank you, Ali.

VELSHI: First of all, I know a lot about the sort of demand for nurses, but nursing is a profession that has many, many layers to it. You can start at a very entry level. You can be getting bachelor's degrees, master's degrees, doctorates, who are we talking about in the world of nursing here? JOHNSON: Absolutely. Nurses actually I think are the foundation of health care. I started out as a registered nurse several years ago and decided that I really could do more and so that's when I decided to go ahead and further my education and get an advanced degree in the form of a master's and so in doing that, I actually was able to take a certification test to be a nurse practitioner and practice health care.

VELSHI: So, a nurse practitioner is an advanced form of the practice of nursing?

JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

VELSHI: Now, this is -- with this shortage of doctors, increasingly and many people will experience nurse practitioners in clinics, in corporations that have medical centers and things like that. What's -- tell me the difference between a nurse practitioner and a doctor in, let's say, a family practice?

JOHNSON: Well, the ultimate difference between nurses and physicians is the philosophy -- the philosophy of care that is provided. My background is from nursing and so I really take a holistic point to taking care of patients. Of course, I want to take care of their physical needs and you know, treat their hypertension and their asthma, but it's very important to me to understand how that diagnosis affects their emotional state and their spiritual state. So, I'm looking at the whole patient from that aspect as a nurse.

VELSHI: Scott, tell me where the overlap lies. I know it's different in different states, but what are a handful of things that in some states doctors do or nurse practitioners do?

JOHNSON: There's different levels. The basic is there -- right now, I think, with this debate is that there are family nurse practitioners who are providing primary care, much like family physicians can do, but there are specialties in nursing, just as there are specialties in medicine and so there are orthopedic specialties and pulmonary specialties and there are nurse practitioners who also practice in their specialties, so I think that there's a lot of role controversy.

VELSHI: Right.

JOHNSON: And that's at the heart of the debate.

VELSHI: So you are a nurse practitioner in a specialty correct?

JOHNSON: I am. I'm an acute care nurse practitioner which means in my studies, I actually took a specialized study into critical care so that I can take care of pulmonary critical care and even sleep medicine patients.

VELSHI: Excellent. Scott, you've set the table for us.

Now I want to discuss -- and you've been great about offering to come on and give us both sides of this issue and then you're going to sort of tell us where you come down on it.

Stay right there. I want to just take a quick break and we're going to come back and continue this fascinating conversation about what sort of role nurse practitioners have in your basic health care.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELSHI: This is a fascinating discussion about the increase in demand for health care that has been on the -- on track for a while now. It's going to increase with all these extra people who are added to the health care rolls under health care reform. What is the role of a nurse practitioner in your basic health care? Some people do nothing but go to nurse practitioners. They don't ever need to go to a doctor.

I'm talking to Scott Johnson. He's a nurse practitioner, joining me from Florida.

All right, Scott, give me the pros and cons. There are two sides to this. There are some people who think nurse practitioners should have greater responsibility and greater powers to work with their patients and there's some people who think that's not a good idea. Just give me a basic pro and con here.

JOHNSON: Sure thing. I do support that nurse practitioners should be able to expand their role, but just like physicians' roles are specialized, so are nurse practitioners and so this debate really is on should family nurse practitioners have an expanded role and I certainly support that, because really and truly, primary care is where the basics of health care occurs.

And so, I do believe that there should be greater independence in being able to provide care for patients. And that's going to provide greater access to care for all of America.

VELSHI: You're talking about family nurse practitioners --

JOHNSON: Family nurse practitioners.

VELSHI: Specialty nurse practitioners like yourself.

JOHNSON: Correct.

VELSHI: And the idea is that a lot of these extra millions of people or an aging population can get a lot of their health care needs met by a nurse practitioner in a family practice.

JOHNSON: Absolutely.

VELSHI: What kind of things would an expanded role involve? What does that mean? Are we talking about prescriptions? Are we talking about treatment? Tell me what that might mean.

JOHNSON: I think that -- I think in all areas it can be. I think that part of it should be billing, nurse practitioners and family care, should be allowed to bill independently and get reimbursed.

But also, you know, in caring for patients, there does not need to be any barriers that's going to prevent you from caring for those patients and one of those areas is certainly prescribing medications. And fortunately, over time that has been improving, but here in Florida, we actually are limited in some of the medications that we prescribe, and I really do think that that hinders us from being able to provide the best care for patients.

VELSHI: Are there other things that you -- you wish you could do in the care of your patients as a nurse practitioner that you can't do right now that could be improved upon?

JOHNSON: In my particular practice, which is pulmonary, I actually do have a lot of independence and I can follow patients in the outpatient setting and I also see patients in the hospital setting. And so I'm really -- I don't feel that limited in the things that I can do, because I'm in a specialty practice.

VELSHI: Right.

JOHNSON: With my education, I'm able to use that. There are certainly some things that I cannot do that a physician has to do and that's kind of what puts me aside on this one side of this topic. But, again, in my practice, lacking prescription authority for narcotics really does hinder me in being able to provide care for my patients.

VELSHI: I think this is a fascinating discussion. One that's going to be very, very important to Americans as all of these extra people get insurance and go out, in some cases for the first time, to get primary health care.

JOHNSON: Yes.

VELSHI: What a great discussion. Scott, thank you very much for being with us.

JOHNSON: Thank you, Ali.

VELSHI: Scott Johnson is a nurse practitioner joining us from Florida.

This hour's top stories start with fraud charges in the aftermath of the housing collapse. Wall Street investment firm Goldman Sachs is accused of selling mortgage-backed securities that were essentially set up to lose money. Allegedly the deals were put together in part by a hedge fund tycoon who was betting against them. The Feds say investors who bought them lost a billion dollars. Goldman Sachs says the charges are unfounded.

The ash cloud from Iceland's volcano is likely to drift farther south and eastward throughout Europe tonight, causing even more flight cancellations across the continent. The Air Transportation Association of America says U.S. carriers have canceled about 200 flights so far today between the United States and affected areas in Europe.

President Obama promoting land conservation today. He's proposing a great outdoors initiative. He says it's vital to economic growth and he's calling for more protection of rivers and farmland and more parks. He's also encouraging families to spend more time outdoors.

And there he is, Ed Henry, standing by for his daily "Ed Henry Segment," only available here at about this time every day. He's talking about economics. He's talking about rights. And he's talking about -- throwing up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELSHI: Ed Henry joins us every day, he's our senior White House correspondent. You will see his face plastered all over TV all day all the time, but never will he be talking about the stuff that he's talks about with us. Because right now, Ed Henry is going to tell us about puking. Ed.

ED HENRY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: This is a pretty good toss. It's really interesting --

VELSHI: No pun intended.

HENRY: There is a pun intended and may be even sine officials walking out at a moment because the president's economic recovery board, this real serious group includes Paul Volcker, the former Fed chairman tasked with job creation and dealing with Wall Street reform, very super serious. The president spoke a little while ago, talking about economic recovery, a healthy economy. We've just confirmed with various officials that right before this meeting started, one of the president's economic advisers vomited inside the White House, got sick. Rich Trumka, the president of the AFL-CIO apparently got some sort of stomach bug.

This is not exactly the best metaphor that the White House might want on a day when they're talking about recovery, but over at the AFL-CIO, they are treating this good naturedly and we should report that we are told Richard Trumka is recovering OK, just a little stomach bug. His spokesman Eddie Bell (ph), also has a good sense of humor, just gave us a quote saying President Trumka is sick of big banks fighting Wall Street reform. This was in no way related to that. He just had a stomach bug and he's now resting so he can get ready for his next big fight. This is obviously not -- it's sort of an embarrassing moment. You come to the White House. It's really big. You're in front of the president and you start throwing up. It's like everyone's worst nightmare.

VELSHI: It is. I guess there's nothing else you can do about it if it happens to you, than be good humored about it. So good on them for at least having a sense of humor about the whole thing.

HENRY: Exactly. VELSHI: Hey, Ed, interesting story that we've been following about the president asking the Department of Health and Human Services to stop -- to instruct hospitals that prevent same-sex partners from visiting them and being by their bedside from doing that.

HENRY: Yes, absolutely. Bottom line is this will affect any hospital that takes Medicare or Medicaid, any sort of Federal funding like that. And this is a big move. And a lot of -- we're hearing from a lot of people in the gay rights community in general, saying that they feel this is an important right, that they finally have gotten, because of this president.

And we have to remember the context of this, which is that, you know, the president talked a lot about these kind of things in the health care fight, more broadly. But, specifically, last year, the president took a lot of heat from the gay rights community that he had not been doing enough for them, that he'd made a lot of promises in the campaign.

We've seen some movement here about trying to repeal Don't Ask, Don't Tell, but that doesn't happen overnight. It takes a long time. It's a long process. And a lot of people who supported this president feel like it's been too slow and want to see more action. This is an important step that they see moving forward and it's something that the White House says the president has been wanting to do for a long time and he finally did it with a stroke of the pen.

VELSHI: All right. It also affects a whole lot of people who are not gay. It's people who are not married or want and other family members, it basically busts down the rules that some hospitals have that only blood relatives or spouses can come in and be by your side.

HENRY: And with the power of attorney as well, which is really important in the final stages of life, as you know, we've seen some of these high-profile cases and if someone doesn't have a power of attorney and basically, as you say, not just for same-sex couples, but someone who's a friend, maybe they're unmarried and they need someone to help them out, not just visiting them in a hospital, but having a power of attorney to make medical decisions, make maybe financial decisions as well. It's a really important moment.

VELSHI: We have a minute left. An important question, Ed, is the economy getting better?

HENRY: It's funny, you talk to senior people here and they feel like it really is. Not just what the president is saying publicly, but what they say in private, is that for the first time in a long time, they really feel inside this White House that it is turning the corner. We've seen some somewhat positive jobs numbers as you know in recent weeks. They know that there's a long way to come and I think politically, obviously, everyone here at the White House is wondering how quickly it's going to turn around in terms of whether it -- you know, people start feeling it before November, when we have those big midterm elections. But, you know, last year at this time, a lot of people were talking about that "W" as whether there would be sort of a double-dip recession. VELSHI: Yes.

HENRY: People here at the White House think there's not really a chance of that. They think that, you know, this is starting to sort of get back on the upswing. But they realize people still are not quite feeling it.

VELSHI: Yes.

HENRY: It's going to take a little bit more time, but for the first time in a long time, they feel like it's turning around.

VELSHI: Jobs are going to be the big deal. When we have lower unemployment, people will feel less frustrated about the economy. I know you weren't planning to be on the trip. The president was going to go to Poland. There's been some question about whether that's going to happen because of this ash cloud. Any update on whether they're going or not?

HENRY: I just talked to some top White House officials who say that they are still waiting to hear basically. The call is going to be made by the Air Force and the Secret Service. In any situation like this, in this case as to whether or not the ash would provide a safety problem for Air Force one. What I'm hearing from people here is that, you know, we all think about Air Force one being this sort of mythical aircraft that could withstand anything.

VELSHI: Yes.

HENRY: At the end of the day it's still a 747 and if there's ash out there, if there's fog out there, there's other things that would disrupt a normal airplane, it's still going to disrupt Air Force One. So, I'm told here there are some meetings taking place. The Air Force and the Secret Service are going to ultimately make the call.

VELSHI: Yes.

HENRY: If they feel it's not safe for the president, they're going to pull the plug on it.

VELSHI: I'm one of those guys when my flight is canceled or delayed because of some kind of danger or weather, I'm always first in line, but that's cool. That's all right. I'll take another flight. I'll spend the night. I don't really ever want to be the one experimenting with the safety of it. Ed good to see you, my friend.

HENRY: You've been tweeting a lot from airport bars.

VELSHI: I spend a lot of time there.

HENRY: Your Twitter account.

VELSHI: I spend a lot of time at airports, so do you. Good to see you, my friend. Have a fantastic weekend. We'll be back together next week. "The Ed Henry Segment" only here, not all over CNN, just here. All right, he's been a civil rights pioneer, a big-city mayor, a UN ambassador, today Andrew Young swam with the sharks at the world's largest aquarium? Why? I'll tell you when we come back.

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VELSHI: So, you think you know your history. I bet you can't tell me why a former mayor of Atlanta, the current mayor of St. Augustine, Florida and a veteran of the Civil Rights Movement went for a swim today with sharks at the Georgia aquarium. OK, I'll tell you.

Back in 1964, St. Augustine, Florida, America's oldest city, was one of its most racially divided, cruelly so. For some reason, it never gets mentioned in the same breath as Selma or Birmingham, but it should. Blacks were barred from so-called white beaches and once when a young black man named JT Johnson dared to jump into a motel swimming pool, the owner poured acid into the water.

Forty-six years later, a new documentary reminds the nation of that event, as well as the bloody night when civil rights marchers were attacked by a segregationist mob. The film is called "Crossing in St. Augustine" and it premieres tonight at the Atlanta Film Festival, not far from where I am right now and it brings me to the Georgia aquarium.

To commemorate Johnson's courageous swim and spotlight the movie, Andrew Young, St. Augustine's mayor Joe Boles and JT Johnson himself suited up for a dip. For Young who was at the forefront of the St. Augustine march and who produced the documentary, this was one more splash in a historic journey.

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ANDREW YOUNG, CIVIL RIGHTS PIONEER: The symbolism of it, JT Johnson was actually the one that jumped in the water in 1964 and it created a big hullabaloo and for us to be able to invite the mayor of St. Augustine up here to swim in this special pool with us, it shows how far we've come.

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VELSHI: I also want you to hear from the sitting -- or make that the swimming mayor of St. Augustine.

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MAYOR JOE BOLES, ST. AUGUSTINE, FLORIDA: The swim is pretty awesome, to be able to get in the water with Ambassador Young, because I've seen the movies, although I was a little young, I seen the movies of the acid being poured into the pool, while visitors to St. Augustine were in there, African-American visitors and that was embarrassing enough to the southern senators, I understand, that it broke the filibuster that allowed the Civil Rights Act of '64 to get signed. So, it's kind of symbolic that we were swimming together in this pool. (END VIDEO CLIP)

VELSHI: The film is "Crossing in St. Augustine." by the way, what Joe Boles was talking about, just a month after that confrontation on a St. Augustine street corner, President Johnson signed the civil rights act into law.

Imagine being denied access to a loved one on their sick bed, maybe even their deathbed. It's happening across the nation right now. I want to share my thoughts about this in my "X-Y-Z" on the other side.

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VELSHI: Now's the time for "The X-Y-Z of It."

In a memo, President Obama sent to the secretary of Health and Human Services, he wrote that he wants to establish a rule that would prevent hospitals from denying visitation rights to gay and lesbian partners. I'm going to read his quote. It's long.

Quote, "There are few moments in our lives that call for greater compassion and companionship than when a loved one is admitted to the hospital. In these hours of need and moments of pain and anxiety, all of us would hope to have a hand to hold, a shoulder on which to lean, a loved one to be there for us, as we would be there for them.

"Yet across -- every day across America, patients are denied the kindness and the caring of a loved one at their sides, whether in a sudden medical emergency or a prolonged hospital stay. Often a widow or widower with no children is denied the support and comfort of a good friend. Members of religious orders are sometimes unable to choose someone other than an immediate family member to visit them and make medical decisions on their behalf.

"Also, uniquely affected are gay and lesbian Americans who are often barred from the bedsides of the partners with whom they may have spent decades of their lives, unable to be there for the person they love and unable to act as a legal surrogate of their partner -- if their partner is incapacitated." That's the end of the president's quote.

Here's my part -- in this day and age, it infuriates me that this is still happening. It is infuriates a lot of you, too. You shared that with me. If someone is sick or dying, they should be able to have whomever they want around them. This is not a discussion about gay rights. This is about the most basic of human rights.

That's all I have to say about it. That's "The X-Y-Z of It." Now over to Rick Sanchez for "RICK'S LIST."

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Ali, I appreciate it. You have a fantastic weekend.