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Jagged Cut, Gaping Cap; Should Government Take Over BP?
Aired June 03, 2010 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Ali Velshi. I'm going to be with you for the next two hours today and every weekday, taking every important topic we cover a step further. I'm going to try and give you a level of detail that will help you put your world into context. Hopefully, you'll come away with something you didn't have before. Let's get started. Here's what I've got on the run down. Bp is making some progress towards capping that oil gusher as Tony just said. It's not pretty. We're covering every angle of the disaster. It is day 45.
Plus, Joran van der Sloot, remember his name? You're going to hear a lot of it again. He is the suspect in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. He's a wanted man again.
Also Arizona's tough new immigration law. The president is challenging, but the governor of Arizona says, I'll see you in court. What happens when the two meet? They're going to do that today, and we're going to find out.
Let me take you, pardon me, to our top story and that is the effort to cap the disaster in the Gulf of Mexico. We understand that that cap is almost in place. It is getting ready to be put into place. Let me bring you up to speed with what's going on. This is the top hat that we're talking about. This is the device that's going to go over the riser where the top has been cut off allowing the oil to go into this collection unit and go up to the surface and get collected. You remember, we were talking about a diamond saw yesterday, a diamond-edged saw, wire saw, making a clean cut? Forget about that. It's not going to happen. The cut wasn't made cleanly. Pardon me.
It's jagged and that means that they had two options. They had a top hat and top cap, basically the same thing. One had a rubber seal and that could have been used if, in fact, the cut was clean. It's not clean, so they're going to have to use the top hat which means you're just not going to get as much oil collected. There's going to be some seepage and some leakage. We've got these live pictures. We'll be telling you when we can actually see that a top hat is being lowered into position. Let me give you a few of the other big developments.
There's an ad that has been airing by BP and basically saying that they're sorry. It's been airing nationwide. In Louisiana, the federal government has okayed a half of dozen artificial sand barriers to guard the wetlands. BP is going to pay $360 million for this. They've already paid more than $1 billion in expenses, so far. And President Obama going back to the Gulf tomorrow headed to New Orleans. Let's go to New Orleans right now where David Mattingly is standing by with the latest -- David.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Ali, down at the ocean floor, we are looking at an absolute gusher right now. This was expected, but it's still very disturbing to look at. This oil coming out at a much faster rate now that they've sheared the top off that pipe. And until they get the cap on it, that oil is going to continue to spew into the Gulf of Mexico at a rate we have never, never seen before since this disaster began. But again, this was all expected because there was a kink in that pipe before. Sort of like a bend in it like that.
It was actually holding some of the oil at bay. Now, there's nothing there to stop it. So, what you're seeing is that natural pressure pushing all of that oil out into the water unimpeded. We don't know how long this is going to go, but they do have that top hat in place. They are ready to lower it down. And what we've been watching has really been quite a show lately in the last couple of minutes watching them to make their final preparations it looks like to that pipe so they can try and get as good a fit as possible with that cap. They're going to put on it.
Yesterday, it was really disappointing to find out that that diamond saw they were using became trapped and they weren't able to use it anymore. They were using that to hopefully make a very smooth cut across the top. If they had been successful with that, they would have been using a particular type of cap with a seal on it that would have trapped a lot of the oil. But now, because they weren't able to use that saw, they had to bring in some other equipment and now the cut they have on the top of that pipe isn't nearly as smooth, so they're going to have to go to another cap, and the problem here is that when we look down the road, the cap may not be able to catch all the oil that's coming out of there.
So, we'll probably see some oil escaping all the time, possibly, into the Gulf of Mexico until this well is capped in August. So, that was the big disappointment when that other saw failed. But right now, looking at that video, we are looking at an absolute gusher of oil, raw crude oil, and natural gas erupting into the Gulf of Mexico. But again, this was expected. But very disturbing to watch this after knowing what everyone has been through so far.
VELSHI: And what we are looking at is a different saw. This isn't the saw that was originally used. This one is being used to try and smooth out some of the rough edges. The good thing, David, is that they knew that this could happen so they have both a top hat and a top cap. The top hat, just to let people know, this is different than the top hat they were talking about a few weeks ago. This is a different unit.
MATTINGLY: Right. This is the son of top hat. What they learned from their failure of that dome several weeks ago when it clogged up with those crystals called hydrates, they learned from that mistake, and now they got a special system in place where they're going to be able to inject chemicals and inject warm water down into that dome. It's also a lot smaller so you don't have water interacting with that natural gas and that oil that's shooting out of there as much as you have with the larger dome.
So, they think they'll be able to conquer the problem with the hydrates and hopefully siphon this oil up to the surface just as they had been doing in the recent past using that siphoning tube at one of the smaller leaks. Now, they're just going to employ that process in a much, much bigger way. I mean, you see it's a huge task that they're looking at with all that oil that's spewing out of there, they're going to collect all of that with that dome and take it straight up to the surface, collect the oil and burn off the natural gas.
VELSHI: All right. Let's hope this one works, David. Thanks very much for keeping us posted on this. We're going to continue studying what this top hat is. Hopefully, this will be your last lesson in capturing oil, but I'm not sure it will be. Josh Levs is here. He's going to take is through the operation to show us exactly where we are right now -- Josh.
JOSH LEVS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that is the goal. And you're right, we're all having to learn a new lexicon every day, and we're having to figure out all these new steps that they're taking. I want all of you to understand the drama of what could happen today. All these days into this crisis, it is possible that for the first time, there will be a seal put on the main gushing area of this oil. And that's what we're all watching right now. In fact, let's go back to these live pictures for a second. You can take a look and see what we're seeing here.
Ali was just mentioning the idea of they just smooth out some of these rough edges, so the idea here as this hydraulic saws keep operating and they are trying their best, even though it's a rough cut, they're trying their best to create a set-up for this -- some people are calling it a top hat, other people are calling it the lower marine riser cap.
VELSHI: So, a lit with a pipe on the top? A lit with a chimney, basically, right?
LEVS: Yes. It kind looks like a chimney, yes. And you can see there's designed to seal it off. Now, let's keep in mind, sometimes you look and this is what you see, these underwater clouds, but what it's designed to not isn't to stop the flow of oil, it's to guide the oil up to a ship that's on the surface and also to pump in methanol which in get rid of these ice-like hydrate crystals that cause problems. As mentioned ago, really, we heard from Admiral Thad Allen talking about where things stand. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADM. THAD ALLEN, NATIONAL INCIDENT COMMANDER: The real issue is trying to do things that where there's no human access at 5,000 feet that are legitimate ways to deal with these problems that had near been down there before. And a lot of times just going to be test, check, adaptation, and checking evolution, and that's pretty much what's been happening here. They do have a duty. They are the responsible party. We're accountable for what we're seeing them, and we're doing that very aggressively.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEVS: And now, before we go, I can show you the basic idea of what we got here. So, this is what everyone wanted to see yesterday, right? We have the blowout preventer here, and you have this riser cap that was over here. And they came along and they made a first cut over in this section --
VELSHI: Is this the pipe that used to go straight up to the deepwater horizon --
LEVS: That's right.
VELSHI: And when that sunk, this came down.
LEVS: Right. When that sunk, this came down. We had this kink here and it was folded over here. So, they managed to make a cut here where they failed was making the cut at the base. That's what they were trying to do to make a perfect cut to get a seal --.
VELSHI: They got it off, it's jagged.
LEVS: It's rough. And they didn't get off with the cutter they wanted. So, it's jagged. So, what they have now is this new system. They're hoping will manage to put it on top and do something to at least capture some of it.
VELSHI: But if it were a clean cut, they would have had a unit that had a rubber seal, really sort of plugged it, and took all the oil out.
LEVS: Right.
VELSHI: Now, some of the oil is probably going to get out.
LEVS: And let's keep in mind, some of these are to going to get out no matter what, and what we're looking for are those relief wells they have in august. It's a couple of months away. They're having to dig down 18,000 feet in order to create them, but when those relief well are ultimately out there, that should pull oil away from the main well and make it available, so that it's sucking the relief oils. And not there (ph), nothing more to gush.
VELSHI: All right. We're keeping a very close eye on this that this could happen, that top hat could actually be placed any minute now.
LEVS: Yes.
VELSHI: So, we'll keep an eye out for it. If it happens, we will let you know. The top hat is just a temporary fix. The final solution, as Josh says, is actually getting those relief wells drilled. We're going to ask the president's energy adviser, Carol Browner, about the next plan when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Should Uncle Sam take over BP? It's a question that's getting serious consideration. Christine Romans attempting to answer this. Here's Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Ali, how's this for an idea, let the U.S. government take control of BP, since the company can't get control of the oil gusher. After all, Washington took charge of GM and AIG, right, when it was necessary. The idea is getting some popular support, at least, just anger against BP mounts. Starting today, the group called "Seize BP" will be holding protests across the country calling for the government to take over BP's assets.
A proponent of this idea, also Robert Reich, former labor secretary under President Bill Clinton. He says the government should put BP under temporary receivership. This is the only way, he says, to be confident that enough resources are being put to stopping the leak and to ensure that BP is working in the public's interest.
The idea is, of course, legally and politically dicey. BP is not based in the U.S., and unlike AIG or GM, BP is in great financial shape. The cash machine that it is means that BP probably has enough money at least right now to withstand this crisis. There's no evidence that government agencies have any idea how to contain this better than BP does. And after all, as some analysts point out, the U.S. government is not Venezuela.
Meanwhile, two U.S. senators are calling for BP to suspend its dividend payments until the full cost for cleaning up the spill can be calculated. Of course, we've never seen a spill like this, so the ultimate costs are impossible to predict. That simply adds the uncertainty over the future of this company. Now, the company paid $10.5 billion in dividends last year.
Of course, this situation is different. Bp stock price is down 37 percent since the day of the explosion and some $68 billion in shareholder value have been erased. Adding to the pressure, Ali, for the future of this company Fitch and Moody's, two of the three major credit ratings agencies have cut BP's rating. That means it could cost the company more to borrow money in the future -- Ali.
VELSHI: All right. Christine, thank you. And you can watch Christine and me. We'll be talking a lot about this and other issues that affect your money every Saturday at 1:00 p.m. eastern and Sunday at 3:00 p.m. Eastern on "Your Money.">
All right. We're talking about this top hat, back to the Gulf of Mexico, talking about the top hat, just a temporary fix. What is the final solution? Well, we're going to ask the president's energy adviser, Carol Browner, when I come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) VELSHI: Breaking news. This just in to CNN. We are just confirming an Interpol spokesperson in Santiago, Chile, tells CNN that Joran van der Sloot was arrested and is in police custody in Santiago, Chile. You will that Joran van der Sloot was connected to the disappearance of Natalee Holloway in Aruba some years ago, has been wanted in the last few days for -- in connection with a murder in Peru. Police have been looking for him. Interpol telling CNN that he has been arrested and is in police custody in Santiago, Chile. We're working on getting more information on this. And as we do, we will bring it to you.
I want to bring you up to speed with some of the stories that we're covering here at CNN. Obviously, the oil disaster in the Gulf of Mexico. It's day 45 for that. BP is making strides with their new capping operation. They successfully cut the riser pipe. That's the pipe that was coming out from the top of the blowout preventer at the base of the ocean. It was a rough cut, however. They wanted a clean cut. They didn't get it. They're in the process of lowering a new cap. Something that you will be hearing referred to as top hat or an LMPR cap. We'll be following the progress throughout the day here on CNN.
I know Josh Levs is following it very closely. We've got the shots that you can see on TV that are coming in from under the ocean. We're monitoring it very closely and will tell you. At the moment, you're seeing extra oil coming out of there because the riser cap has been cut off.
All right. A hero's welcome for hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists returning to Turkey this morning. They were arrested by Israeli defense forces as part of the flotilla that was attempting to bring material into Gaza earlier this week. Nine people died in the raids. Turkey's president said the incident has forever changed his country's relationship with Israel. Turkey had an excellent relationship with Israel for the last 40 years.
And new unemployment claims fell for the second straight week. New government numbers say 453,000 people filed for benefits for the first time last week. Now, that's down around 10,000 from the previous week and it looks a lot -- it sort of tells us about what we might expect tomorrow. We're expecting the big unemployment number for the month of May. Experts are expecting that we will have created up to half a million jobs in May. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we'll continue our coverage of day 45 of the disaster in the Gulf of Mexico.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Day 45 of the disaster. I want to bring up the speed with where we are. First of all, let's have a look at what we're calling the leak cam. We have actually several images that are coming to us from under the water. This is a remote-operated arm. It had a drill up until now and -- not a drill, a saw, and it's been trying to clean that top of that riser off. You can see that oil gushing out that's because there's been a cut. They've cut the pipe out from the top. It is not as clean of cut as they would have liked, but the bottom line is they got something ready to go on top of it, and we are waiting to see what that actually looks like. Let me show you what it's going to look like. It's still the plan. I want to show you an animation that we got rather than these pictures about what it's going to look like when it actually happens. Let's see if we can just bring that up. All right. Let's skip that. OK. Michael, let's go right to Admiral Thad Allen describing what they're going to do now that that cut isn't exactly how they wanted it to go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLEN: This is an irregular cut. It will be a little bit more challenging to get the seal around, but we will have a containment device there. We will be able to capture more oil than we would, otherwise. We're going to have to see as we put the containment cap on exactly how effective it is. We will have the option to use undersea dispersants to the oil that might not be captured. It will be kind of a test in the adopt (ph) days as we move ahead, but a significant step forward.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: Bottom line is that's a bit of a setback that the thing wasn't cut the way they wanted it to be, but let me just show you what's going to happen. This is the bottom of the ocean. This is something called the blowout preventer. On top of that, that was the bent cap, that's when the deepwater horizon fell away. They bent the cap. They cut that off. Oil is now gushing out of that pipe. They're going to lower this lid on to it and hopefully contain as much of the oil as they can.
It's going to go up that pipe on the top to a vessel that is standing by on top of the ocean. And as a result of that, they're going to try and collect most of this oil. This doesn't cap the well, just simply collects the oil. We want to talk about what happens next. So, how do you actually cap that well? What's the next step for offshore drilling, particularly, deepwater drilling? Carol Browner is with me from the White House. We'll talk to her right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Day 45 of the oil disaster in the Gulf of Mexico. I want to go right to the White House. Carol Browner is standing by. She is the White House adviser on energy and global warming. She's been intimately involved in all of the plans trying to deal with this issue. Carol Browner, you and I have talked before. This has not been your major agenda. You've been talking about alternative energy and wasting it as off of this, and now, we are stuck with a very old energy problem.
My colleague, Christine Romans, possibly put it best yesterday when she said, we develop all the science that's sucking oil out of the ground through metal straws. We don't have all that much science about putting it back into the ground or stopping it from coming out. This really has to -- has to give pause to the administration about what the next steps are, not just to plug this well, but I guess, this could happen again.
CAROL BROWNER, WHITE HOUSE ADVISER ON ENERGY AND GLOBAL WARMING: We need to have all the answers. There will be a thorough investigation. The Department of Justice has announced an investigation. We've named the Blue Ribbon Commission to look at this, to understand what happened, to what safeguards could be put in place to ensure that it doesn't happen, and in the event you have something that you couldn't begin to think of happen, how would you contain it.
So, all of these questions need to be answered before we can move forward. As you know, they have -- we've already paused all of the other drilling activities in the deep water out in the Gulf of Mexico until we have answers to these questions. We need to be able to say to the American people this will be safe before we move forward.
VELSHI: And what a mixed response to pausing that deep water exploration and drilling we've had. Some people say, this is exactly what needs to happen. We need to stop all this until we find out what's going on. Others, including Governor Bobby Jindal of Louisiana, and others in those states that benefit from this offshore oil drilling are saying this is going to hurt our economy even worse. How do we square this, the fact is, America makes a lot of money off the fact that that oil -- by the way, we use a lot of that oil.
BROWNER: We do use a lot of oil. And this administration has been doing everything we can to reduce the amount of oil we use. We set the toughest ever car efficiency standards, fuel-efficiency standards. We just announced the intention to set the first ever large truck fuel-efficiency standards. So, we need to continue to break our dependence on fossil fuels, but in the meantime, we cannot move forward with this drilling until we understand what happened and how we can make it safe. Look, our heart goes out to the people of the region. We understand how they're suffering.
When the people talk about the economic upside of drilling, we also need to be mindful of what we're seeing now which is the economic downside, the consequences on the fishermen, on the livelihoods of people in these marsh communities. We need to get some answers. We need to be able to say to the American people we know how to do this safely so that if we're going to be able to move forward, and that's what we're committed to doing.
VELSHI: A number of people have commented to us on Facebook and through messages, why not do this like the effort to make the nuclear bomb or the effort to put somebody on the moon. Should the government be looking at this as a project where we now add remarkable urgency to reducing our dependence on fossil fuels because, really, outside of disasters like this, the public doesn't think about it that way, do they?
BROWNER: I think you saw the president give a speech yesterday, a very important speech, where he called on Congress to pass comprehensive clean energy legislation. You know, noting that we do need to change our energy future. We are not competing in the global market for clean energy technology. We should be creating jobs here at home for clean energy technologies, and we should be leading the global market in clean energy industries. And that takes legislation. That's what we want Congress --
VELSHI: Is there something about what has happened here that spurs that along? Is there something here that makes people say, all right, this really is serious. In the end, whether you find out it was BP or Transocean or some combination thereof, the bottom line is us and how much oil we have to consume in this country.
BROWNER: I think it does raise the question for people that when they see what's happening, when they see people suffering in these communities, when they see the loss of jobs, it certainly raises a question about our dependence on fossil fuels.
And I think, you know the question about what can we be doing and we in the administration are doing everything with the tools we have available to us today, but we need Congress to give us some more tools so that we really can chart a different future for this country, a clean energy future.
VELSHI: Let's talk about this particular future, at least for a little while. We've got this oil future. Where are the best minds in figuring out safe ways to drill in shallow water, in deep water? Are they with the oil companies, are they in private practice, are they at universities, are they in the government? Do we have enough -- one of the things I think people are frustrated about is some people have said the government needs to take over this effort to stop this well from gushing and the clean-up. We're not--it's not clear the government has more resources or better resources than BP does.
BROWNER: Well it's important to understand hat we've got our best minds down there looking at this, getting directions, doing analysis. Steven Chu, The Secretary of Energy, Nobel Prize winning scientist, Ken Salazar. We have over 100 of the best and brightest looking at all of this and making sure that every single effort that is reasonable is being attempted.
But at the end of the day the industry are the people who know how to operate those little cameras, we're all watching on TV now, know how to operate the vessels. And so we've brought to bear the best and the brightest. We've got a brain trust in there. And we're going to continue to make sure that every single thing is attempted to get this oil under control.
Now we have (ph) always known that the final solution will be the relief wells. And one of the things we did very early on is say to BP not only will you dig one well, you will dig two wells because we wanted redundancy. We wanted to make sure if something by chance went wrong with that first relief well there would be a second one already under way.
VELSHI: And by the way, other countries that do a lot of deep water or underwater drilling do that. Are we, are you guys discussing some real changes to the regulations that are that just going to make this type of work safer? It's going to make it more costly. But I don't think anybody ever wants to see this again.
BROWNER: No one wants to see this again. We don't want to see it again, the American people don't want to see it again. And we will make sure that they do not see it again. And if that means additional redundancies, additional safeguards, then absolutely those will be required.
VELSHI: Carol Browner, thanks for joining us today. Carol Browner is the White House Advisor on Energy and Global Warming.
All right, piece of news we brought you just a few moments ago. The main suspect in the Natalee Holloway case now in custody in another young woman's death. We're following this breaking news. I'll bring you the details right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: I think back a little bit, remember the name Joran van der Sloot. He was considered a suspect in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway in 2005 disappearance of Natalee Holloway in Aruba. In the end nothing came of that.
And then earlier this week, 21-year-old body of a 21-year-old girl, Stephanie Flores Ramirez was found in a hotel in Lima Peru. That hotel room had been rented to van der Sloot. We now hear news he has been captured in Santiago, Chile Rafael Romo joins me now to try and piece this together. What a remarkable story.
RAFAEL ROMO, CNN SENIOR EDITOR FOR LATIN AMERICAN AFFAIRS: Exactly it appears that he fled Peru on Monday afternoon. He took a bus and he went to Santiago, the capital of Chile, and he was arrested on highway 68 in Chile. Now that's an area that is frequented by tourists. It is between the beach resorts of Val Paraiso and the capital of Santiago.
And there was a manhunt ever since the discovery of the body of Stephanie Flores the victim here. And you had police in Peru, police in Chile, Interpol in both countries actively looking for this man. Now they say, they are confirming a spokesperson for Interpol in Chile Anarvu Vera (ph), just told us about 10, 15 minutes ago that he is indeed the man they're looking for. That he has been arrested and it is a matter of probably 48 hours before they finish the paperwork and finally extradite him to the capital of Peru in Lima where he's going to have to face charges for the murder of Stephanie.
VELSHI: And they, they're these two countries are fine with extradition policies? They will be able to get him back to Peru?
ROMO: They are. There's no problem legally speaking as far as we've seen for a speedy extradition from Santiago, Chile, to Lima, Peru for him to face charges.
VELSHI: All right. This is exclusively now a Peruvian matter. They are going to look into this, this woman Stephanie Flores was found stabbed, multiple stab wounds on her body in a hotel room rented to Joran van der Sloot. But we don't have anything more on what that connection is?
ROMO: Well no but it's going to be--the case is going to be specifically a Peruvian case. But at the same time, the Interpol and Chile are also participating in the investigation in a supportive way to Peru.
But definitely he is going to have to go back and Peruvian authorities say they have two very powerful incriminating pieces of evidence. They have two videos of both the suspect and the victim at a casino in Lima, the capital of Peru.
And they also have them going together into a room at a nearby hotel that was registered under the name of van der Sloot. So they have at least these two pieces are going to be very good, very solid in building a case against him in Peru.
VELSHI: All right Joran van der Sloot is on his way back then he's in Santiago, Chile right now, they're doing the paperwork. They're going to get him back to Peru where he apparently is going to face charges. Has he been charged yet?
ROMO: He has not been officially charged yet.
VELSHI: All right Rafael, good to see you. Thank you.
All right. When we come back, we will (COUGHS) pardon me we'll continue our coverage of day 45 of the oil disaster in the Gulf of Mexico. We've got lots more news. We're waiting for that top hat to be put in place. We'll bring that to you when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Day 45 of the oil disaster in the Gulf of Mexico. Let me bring you up to speed with what we know. Just today BP used basically giant scissors to slice a pipe to help stop the gusher. They were trying to saw it. Giving it a clean cut, didn't work. So capping it off is going to be a little bit harder. Kind of like a shoe that doesn't fit quite right. The government's response manager still calls it a significant step forward.
In Chicago, jury selection has begun in the corruption trial of former Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich. He was impeached form office last year amid allegations, that he tried to sell off President Obama's open senate seat. Two White House officials have been subpoenaed in court.
And Emmy award winning "Golden Girls" Star rue Mcclanahan died of a stroke in a New York City hospital. She also appeared in "All In the Family" and "Maude". Rue McClanahan was 76 years old.
Well, face-off, happening right now President Obama meeting face to face with Arizona Governor Jan Brewer. The two clashing over immigration reform We're going to talk with Roland Martin in the house after the break. VELSHI: All right. Let's take it over to Josh Levs. He's following very closely what's happening with this effort to lower that. That is a great graphic. This is going to tell those people who have not been following this every four minutes like we have what exactly is happening here.
JOSH LEVS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, let's do this let's first go to the live pics under water and then we'll zoom in over here.
VELSHI: Your graphic is better than those live pictures.
LEVS: Are they? Okay then let's go straight to here.
VELSHI: There it is. There it is
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: Nobody knows what that mean (ph). I mean it's nice, sometimes you see something interesting. Do you know what that is?
LEVS: It's luck of the draw. Yes I know some of what this is. I mean, what we're looking at you could see if (ph) the words at the screen. These are the ROVS. These are the remote operated vehicles that are operating underwater. And some people seem a little confused because they say, wait a second, I thought the cut was successful earlier today.
It was. The money cut, the cut that they need in order to get their latest effort out of containment advice on --device on is done. But there are several steps that need to take place before they can actually lower it all the day and seal it on. So what we've been seeing are these remote operated vehicles, these robots under water doing what they can to clear off that area and also lay the groundwork for a seal.
When the top comes down, supposed to do a few things. It's supposed to fit well, but it's also supposed to seal well. It's not a 100 percent seal. And it's not going to be. The oil is going to, to some extent, work its way upward through the canal that's inside this device up to a ship.
But some of it will continue to leak out. It's not designed to be full. What it is designed to do is to seriously mitigate how much of the oil is leaking into the Gulf. So for these hours, we're continuing to watch this. Remote operated vehicles are doing their business down there, and we could have drama today. It is possible. I know we've said this before. We're all crossing our fingers.
But what we are hoping, today will be the day when the drama happens. That they get a containment device on top.
All right. We can go to this image right behind me on the screen here. What this began as was the image we were going to be seeing yesterday. It's called the LMRP cap. This right here is the blowout preventer. What they needed to do is to use these remote-operated vehicles to create this stub right here. Well, they didn't get it quite this pretty. The stub you're looking at is very, very nice there. Didn't manage to get it quite that well because this was going to be the diamond wire cutter that was going to make it almost pretty with the cap on on top there. But they got close. What they got instead was they used a different device. They got a rougher top along there.
And they have a similar device to this. Some are calling it a new top hat. Some are calling it an LMRP-2. The term doesn't matter so much as much as the fact that what they will be doing similar to this same picture. They're going to be taking that device and lowering it to where that oil is gushing.
So, we as we watch these pictures are going to be looking out for a few things. We want to see how much oil is gushing in the meantime. We're hearing from our folks on the ground. Authorities are more and more concerned about how much oil is gushing out right now because that's part of what makes this so risky and so problematic.
In fact, let's go back to the live pictures one more time before I toss it back. Okay. So basically, what we are watching is that oil gushing out right there is another reason why every minute matters so much right now, Ali. The process of doing this, increased it even more. They've got to get a cap on it.
VELSHI: All right. You'll stay on top of it. Thank you very much. Glad you could make sense of what those pictures are. Josh will stay on top of that.
Look who's here. Look who's here. Roland Martin is in the house. You were supposed to be here ten minutes ago. But that's okay - we'll just hold the show for you.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I had a book signing.
VELSHI: It's not like we're on a schedule.
MARTIN: I had a book signing. I couldn't keep people waiting.
VELSHI: Your book is out.
MARTIN: Yes.
VELSHI: Tell me a bit about it.
MARTIN: The first president Barack Obama's road to the White House, the chronicling of the campaign. Great stories with some celebrities who followed the campaign and some amazing stories --
VELSHI: You followed it so closely. You were interviewing President Obama. I mean, you and I were talking about it the entire time.
MARTIN: Yes.
VELSHI: (CLEARS THROAT) That's great. I got a cough so -- (COUGH)
MARTIN: Go right ahead.
VELSHI: Be prepared to do a lot of the talking. You're a talkative guy.
MARTIN: No problem, folks. Do you want me to take care of this here while you cough?
VELSHI: Is this a break we're going to, or do get to I talk?
All right. I want to talk to you.
MARTIN: OK, cool.
VELSHI: Jan Brewer, governor of Arizona --
MARTIN: Before you do that. Susan Grant of CNN bet me, she said, "I dare you to wear the ascot with Ali."
VELSHI: I don't know why anybody thinks you're not going to wear it.
MARTIN: I said, I will go ahead and do it, Susan, because I love a good --
VELSHI: See, other people get shamed when people, like, mock what they do, but you don't.
MARTIN: Nope. Don't care.
(LAUGHTER)
VELSHI: You like it! You carry it. I love it.
MARTIN: Don't care.
VELSHI: It's such a pleasure to have you. Roland and I -- for those of you who don't know, Roland and I are good friends. And Roland, but I want your take on this.
MARTIN: Sure.
VELSHI: Jan Brewer, meeting with the president right now. They couldn't be further apart for their view of immigration reform, except they both agree there needs to be some in this country. What's happening in that meeting right now?
MARTIN: Great photo opportunity.
At the end of the day, she is very firm on her position, the president is firm on his position. The federal government has made it clear they're going to go after this particular law. And she's saying bring it on. And so, fine, the two of them, they had the opportunity to say, we met, we talked, philosophical difference. That's frankly what's going to come out of it. She is not going to back down because the voters there have spoken.
VELSHI: All right. So, they feel, many people in Arizona, feel they have brought this issue to the floor again after it fell back largely because of the economy. And that is going to force the federal government's hands. So, never mind just challenging Arizona's law --
MARTIN: He's already has forced the federal government's hands. The president has already announced a number of troops that are going to go to the border. It is forcing Congress to recognize unless they do something, all of a sudden, you're likely going to have other border states begin to step up and do their own --
VELSHI: Will they come up with something that makes sense for this country?
MARTIN: Well, here's the fundamental problem. This is a issue no one will be satisfied. On the left, on the right, in the center. That has been the fundamental problem.
So, you don't have a natural constituency that will say politically, hey, this is great. Democrats are saying, look. We could possibly get significant Hispanic support as a result of advancing immigration reform.
But in the meantime, they're recognizing that it is a lightning rod to folks who are not Hispanic. So, what does that mean when it comes to the election?
So, that's the problem. There are no clear-cut winners here, but this is one of those tough issues where members of Congress need to do a gut check, stop playing games politically and say, we have to solve this. Just like Social Security. You can't keep putting it off, putting it off, putting it off. This is why you are elected. You are there to make the tough decisions. So, do it.
VELSHI: All right, but in an environment where these -- these -- particularly Democrats, but incumbents generally --
MARTIN: Right.
VELSHI: -- are just getting beaten back over a number of issues, and there's a sentiment spreading across the country that we don't want you guys fixing everything.
MARTIN: Well, no, first of all, I disagree with that. I think what people are saying is we want reasonable individuals making decisions. I think if you asked -- look, first of all, the polling data is clear. Americans know and want us to address this.
VELSHI: Right.
MARTIN: The problem is, you have gutless politicians who are afraid of losing their jobs. That goes back to the whole notion of a tough vote. And so the point is, we need politicians who are going to stand up, be accountable, and accept the responsibility as opposed to say, oh, I don't want to have a tough vote because I don't want to have to go back home to explain this to the voters because I might lose.
VELSHI: So, what's the best way to do that, then? Should they poll their voters and see what they want on immigration?
MARTIN: Look, I think you should poll your voters --
VELSHI: Our polling indicates people want change. They want immigration fixed.
MARTIN: Okay. But here's the problem with that, people say they want change, want it fixed. But once you being to say, what does it look like? All of a sudden it gets a little unclear what it actually means.
VELSHI: Does fix mean amnesty? Does fixed mean throwing people out of the country? what does it mean?
MARTIN: This is one of the issues that's a defining issue that I would liken to the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act where a politician has to make an uncomfortable choice and --
VELSHI: But wasn't the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act, weren't those clearer cut?
MARTIN: They were clearer cit, but you still had major opposition to the particular laws. But the point there is, you have politicians who made tough choices --
VELSHI: Yes.
MARTIN: -- even if it meant them losing their jobs.
VELSHI: Yes.
MARTIN: That's the problem. We don't have enough political leaders who have the freedom and the -- you know, frankly the moxie to say, okay, do you know what? I have to do this.
Because otherwise this is what's going to happen. It will not happen before 2010. So, what happens in 2011? People will begin to say, you know, there's a presidential election coming up 2012. So what -- just like Social Security, it gets passed down to the next Congress, the next Congress, the next Congress. So, ten years from now we're in the same position, hey, let's do something about immigration reform, and nothing ever gets done.
VELSHI: All right. Roland, good to see you, my friend. Best of luck with the book.
MARTIN: I appreciate it. Folks can go to rolandsmartin.com to pick it up. And also because you know, last time we had this conversation, I had a special surprise for Mr. Jon Stewart. VELSHI: Oh, is that right?
MARTIN: Oh, yes.
VELSHI: Because he was making fun of your ascot.
MARTIN: Oh, yes, he was, and actually, I plan on - I'm in New York June 14. I plan on personally delivering it to him.
VELSHI: Very good! I like that. We'll be watching very closely.
MARTIN: All right, then.
VELSHI: Good to see you, my friend.
MARTIN: Always a pleasure, Mr. Ali Velshi.
VELSHI: You can come by anytime.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: C'mon now. We got to -
VELSHI: You got to show me how it's done.
MARTIN: You've got to step it up.
VELSHI: Show me how it's done.
MARTIN: You want me to show you how it's done? It's pink, but -
VELSHI: I know, it's a little bit of a clash here.
MARTIN: It's a little bit of a clash, but see how it just dresses up. Look at that.
VELSHI: Look at that. I went from a regular-looking, chubby bald guy -
(LAUGHTER)
VELSHI: -- to one fashionable cat.
(LAUGHTER)
VELSHI: Good to see you, Roland.
MARTIN: Likewise.
VELSHI: All right, we talk solutions to big problems on this show. How about a robotic fish that could lead school of fishes out of harm's way? The pied piper of the sea when we come back.
Check this out.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) VELSHI: Okay. It's one of my favorite parts of the show every day. "The Big 'I'," It's where we bring you ideas that could change the way the world works.
Let me tell you about this one. I'm joined by Dr. Mauricio Porfiri (ph). He's an assistant professor of the Polytechnic Institute of New York University. He's a mechanical engineering expert, and he is working on and developed these -- basically this is my lay way of explaining it, Mauricio, fish that are like the pied paper of Hamelin (ph), mechanical fish that can -- that can guide other fish to safety in a disaster or can lead them out of harm's way.
That's my lay explanation of it. I'm fascinated by this. Tell me how close I am.
MAURIZIO PORFIRI, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, POLYTECHNIC INSTITUTE OF NYU: You are very close.
VELSHI: Tell me what this is. Why did you invent it? What's it going to do?
PORFIRI: Yes. So, the whole idea of the project is to look into understanding of fish swim, how collectively they behave, how they make decisions, and how is it possible to have complex behavior when they are simple units that take decisions and are elementary.
So, what we tried to understand is learning about animals, understanding what is their collective behavior, and be able to duplicate it using robots.
VELSHI: So, I'm looking at this on the screen, and it looks like a lure. A fishing lure.
PORFIRI: Yes. Yes.
VELSHI: And the idea is that -- and, by the way, the reason we want to talk about this is because I know it's not ready for primetime yet, but the idea that -- let's say there was a natural disaster in the Gulf of Mexico and we were worried about the fish, could we somehow to get them to swim somewhere else?
PORFIRI: Yes. So, that is the overall idea of the project. The idea of the project is to understand leadership in animals, understand why an animal is a leader with respect to the other. What are the cues that it uses to impart leadership? And if we can understand what are those cues, can we make a robot that can be a leader for a group.
And this can be fish. It can be birds. It can be other animals. The understanding is what does it take to be a leader? So, we started with fish, and for fish we find the important part is the visual and the flow. So, what we try to do is to build a robot that looks friendly to the animal in the sense that they are not threatened by it. And then it looks somehow attractive for the animal so that they can follow it.
VELSHI: And so that's what you do. You experimented with this? Has it worked?
PORFIRI: Yes. yes, yes, it works. So, we do experiments in the lab, and it's pretty promising and exciting.
VELSHI: All right. So, it hasn't had a big application yet, and you're not looking for to it have the big application yet. But theoretically, let's say we know there's this oil spill, and we know it would endanger fish life. What would happen? You'd have a device -- do you happen to have one with? Do you have an example of this?
POFIRI: Yes, I do. I have a couple.
VELSHI: Put it up by your face so we can see it. All right. Very good. It looks like a piece of coal.
PORFIRI: It looks like a piece of coal or a grenade.
(LAUGHTER)
VELSHI: But -- now, that's not all that colorful, but you would color it a certain way to attract fish?
PORFIRI: Yep, yep. No.
So, the whole idea is that there is -- there are a couple of phenomenon. So what we are determining the most important feature of the robot is its tail, which is this. So, the tail is made of an intelligent material. And we can get the tail to bit without having any noise in the system.
And what we try to do is to have debuted this chubby guy to swim like a real fish so the fish is not threatened and is somehow engaged by this species the way it swim. And then the size of the animal, which is a little bit bigger, allows for the animal to see protection, to see a shadow, so they get feel protected. They don't feel threatened by the propulsion and they tend to follow it.
VELSHI: What a fascinating, fascinating invention that you've got. We will follow it very closely. And when you're ready for prime time, when you're ready for it to go into the ocean, come and tell us, and we want to follow you in those experiments.
What a great thing.
Dr. Maurizio Porfiri is an assistant professor at the Polytechnic Institute of New York University.
Thanks for being with us, Maurizio.
PORFIRI: Thank you.
VELSHI: All right.
