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Pres. Obama in the Gulf; Pakistan Floods Affect 20 Million; Search Resumes for Fallen WWII Marines
Aired August 14, 2010 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Right now on CNN, an exclusive interview with President Obama down in the Gulf of Mexico. He got in the water and waded into a controversy over the mosque near Ground Zero. CNN is the only place you will hear it.
And one hateful word that causes so much pain and anger spouted from the mouth of a national radio host, leaving both black and white Americans to wonder if it's ever OK to use this dreaded N-word. We'll talk.
And the most famous White House social secretary ever, Desiree Rogers, talks candidly with me about the people who crashed her party and nearly her career. Now she has a new job and a new attitude.
Good evening, everyone. I'm Don Lemon. Come on in, the water's fine. Or at least that's the message from President Obama, that's the one he is giving down in the Gulf of Mexico. He's on a short vacation there tonight with the first lady and their daughter, Sasha, after months of oil flowing into the waters.
And in an exclusive interview with CNN, the president is wading deeper into the controversy over the plan to build a mosque and community center near Ground Zero. It has gotten so much attention that just in the last few hours the White House has come out to clarify his remarks to us.
Joining us now from Panama City, Florida, is the man who got that exclusive interview, CNN's Ed Henry.
Ed, what did the president say?
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, he did jump right headlong into this controversy. He was trying to maybe clarify just ever so slightly what he said last night about how he believes in general in the principle of religious freedom. That sparks a lot of controversy though because there are a lot of people in New York, especially Republicans and Congressman Piteti King who think it's insensitive to put a mosque in a community center there right near Ground Zero in New York City.
The president was hoping that that would not be the focus of this trip, of course. He wants to talk about the gulf coast on the rebound. Maybe get a little rest and relaxation. He went for a swim actually with his daughter Sasha today. He also played putt-putt golf with the first lady, as well as Sasha. And Sasha actually got a hole in one on the first hole.
But there was serious business going on here beyond the rest and relaxation. The president delivering remarks at a Coast Guard facility talking about how the administration is glad that there's been a milestone. The oil has stopped flowing here in the gulf, but then said the crisis is far from over and the administration will stay here. And after those remarks, I pressed him a little bit about this whole mosque controversy and asked him what he thought about some of this Republican criticism.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: What do you think about the reaction to your speech about the mosque? What about the reaction to your speech?
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, the, you know, my intention was to simply let people know what I thought, which was that in this country, we treat everybody equally in accordance with the law regardless of race, regardless of religion. I was not commenting and I will not comment on the wisdom of making a decision to put a mosque there. I was commenting very specifically on the right that people have that dates back to our founding. That's what our country is about. And I think it's very important that, you know, as difficult as some of these issues are, we stay focused on who we are as a people and what our values are all about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: The key part there was the president saying that he was not last night trying to comment directly on the wisdom of whether or not this mosque should be built -- the mosque in the community center there near ground zero but instead wondering and talk in general about the principle of religious freedom. That caused buzz and speculation in the media all afternoon after our interview about whether the president was walking away from what he said last night. So bottom line is the White House has been under pressure today and they realize this controversy is not going away -- Don.
LEMON: Yes, as a matter of fact, they sent a statement right after the president's comments. And they sort of clarifying the clarification -- Ed.
HENRY: Yes, in a way, absolutely right. White House Spokesman Bill Burton put out this statement after CNN aired this sound. He said, quote, "Just to be clear, the president is not backing off in any way from the comments he made last night. It is not his role as president to pass judgment on every local project, but it is his responsibility to stand up for the constitutional principle of religious freedom and equal treatment for all Americans."
Interesting that in that statement Bill Burton says that it's not for the president to pass judgment on every local project. In fact, that had been the White House position just a few days ago. Robert Gibbs was telling my colleague, Suzanne Malveaux, at the White House in one of the briefings that this is a local issue. We're just not going to comment. We're not going to weigh in. And that is part of the reason why eyebrows were raised about the president's comments last night, because all of the sudden he was weighing in to this local controversy.
White House officials say that's in part because he didn't want to interfere previously with Michael Bloomberg, the New York City mayor's deliberations. Now the mayor has come out and said he supports it so the president felt he could weigh in but as you can see it has only caused more controversy -- Don.
LEMON: Ed Henry, thank you very much for that, Ed.
And the president's original comments came late last night during a White House dinner honoring the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Ground Zero is indeed hallowed ground. But let me be clear. As a citizen and as president, I believe that Muslims have the right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. And that includes the right to build a place of worship in a community center on private property in lower Manhattan in accordance with local laws and ordinances.
We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus and non-believers. We are shaped by every language and every culture, drawn from every end of this earth. And that diversity can bring difficult debates. This is not unique to our time. Past eras have seen controversies about the construction of synagogues or Catholic churches. But time and again, the American people have demonstrated that we can work through these issues and stay true to our core values and emerge stronger for it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And most Americans do not agree with the president on this issue. In a recent CNN Opinion Research Corporation Poll, more than two-thirds of people were against the plan to build a mosque near Ground Zero. Only 29 percent of those surveyed supported that plan.
Police in Buffalo, New York, have charged 25-year-old Keith Johnson with four counts of murder after an early morning shooting left four people dead. Another four people were wounded in a gun fire outside a Buffalo restaurant. It was in downtown Buffalo. Details are murky, but it is believed that a fight broke out inside the restaurant immediately before the shootings. Among the dead, two are men and two are women. One of the victim was a man celebrating his wedding anniversary.
A man said he was banned from a country because of what he believes. And we are not talking about Cuba nor North Korea. He said he was banned from the United States.
And one of the bloodiest battlefields of World War II, and we're not talking about Normandy here. A tiny island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean where today a recovery mission is under way to bring home the remains of our servicemen.
And don't just sit there, we want you to be a part of this conversation. Make sure you send us a message on Twitter or on Facebook. And check us out on our blog at CNN.com/Don. Also you can check in at FourSquare. We want to hear from you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: It sounds like something that would happen in Cuba, and not the United States. A professor from South Africa said he was banned from entering this country because of his opposition to the Iraq war. That's why tonight's annual meeting of the American Sociological Association in Atlanta is a celebration of sorts.
Professor Adam Habib spoke on that panel. His presence is a victory for the ASA after it sued the State Department to let Habib enter the United States. In January, Hillary Clinton lifted the ban against the political scientist.
Professor Habib joins me now. Thank you so much.
So when you learned that you would be able to come back into the country what were your feelings?
PROF. ADAM HABIB, UNIVERSITY OF JOHANNESBURG: I was thrilled, not only because this ban applied to me, it's applied to my children. You know, Yurfan (ph) was about 14, but it's applied to him when he was 13 and when he was 11 at that stage. To my younger child, Sidan (ph), who was 7 at that stage.
And Yurfan (ph) was supposed to come to the United States on a tour. I couldn't let him come to the United States. How do you explain to an 11-year-old he can't come to the United States?
LEMON: How did you find out that you couldn't come back?
HABIB: Oh, I've come to the United States, I flew into JFK, and then suddenly -- I had flown in a number of times, previously came into the JFK, and then they said to me they took me to the homeland security office in JFK. They interrogated me.
LEMON: Called you a terrorist, you said.
HABIB: Well, they kept me around for five, six, seven hours. And that afternoon they said to me that they were going to deport me back to the flight back to South Africa.
LEMON: And you went back to South Africa?
HABIB: Before that thing, they interviewed me and said to me, are you a terrorist? And my response was, to be honest, how long have you been doing this job. Has anybody ever answered yes to this question?
LEMON: We have heard all the stories. And many people didn't think that it was real, especially during the Iraq war. But you said because of the circumstances, you have no other thing to pin this on but that, and all of the sudden now you're allowed to come back.
HABIB: The question is between the last of 2004 and 2006, nothing had changed. The only thing that I could imagine was the Iraq war. There were demonstrations in South Africa. I was opposed to the war. I addressed those demonstrations. I did say very clearly that I thought it was the wrong thing. I still hold that view by the way.
LEMON: And talking here, you said, you know, I love being able to come, you love America.
HABIB: I lived in America. It's the only other place I have lived in besides South Africa. So it's like a second home to me.
LEMON: Yes.
HABIB: And of course, I love it.
LEMON: And part of that is because of the freedom to speak and the freedom to demonstrate and do whatever. And so to have that happen in America, this is going to sound strange. Did it feel un- American to you?
HABIB: Absolutely. I thought it was -- it violated the very spirit to what it means to be American.
LEMON: The lesson here?
HABIB: I think the lesson is absolutely we need to make sure that this doesn't happen again. There are lots of people that are still excluded. I was lucky because the thing got raised and the American Sociological Association, the ACLU took up my case. There are lots of people who didn't create that kind of splash. The victims. They don't have anybody defending them. And I think it's important for the ACLU and others to be able to address all of those issues.
LEMON: Professor Habib, thank you very much.
HABIB: My pleasure.
LEMON: I appreciate you coming in.
HABIB: My pleasure.
And for the second weekend in a row, dangerous weather in the upper Midwest. We'll show you more of the damage caused by this tornado.
And later, Desiree Rogers, the White House social secretary at the center of that unforgettable party crasher incident. She talks about that and her new job.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: We want to take a look at our top stories right now. Canadian officials say nearly 500 Sri Lankan immigrants who spent three months abroad -- or aboard a migrant ship, I should say, appeared to be in good health tonight. The ship was seized off the coast of British Colombia on Friday because it was suspected of human smuggling. The vessel was also believed to be carrying members of the Tamil Tigers. A militant separatist group accused of war crimes in Sri Lanka.
Communities in Minnesota tonight are still coping with damage from around a brutal storm that spawned tornadoes. Look at this video. The storms whipped up a twister in the town of Hayfield, Minnesota, which is in the southeastern part of the state. One tornado destroyed some barns and took down trees and power lines. And despite the intensity of the storms, homes were spared and there were no injuries to report.
Flags will be lowered to half staff across China tomorrow in memory of flooding and mudslide victims. Violent weather has killed more than 1,000 people and that number is expected to rise. 10,000 people have been evacuated in one province and several thousand more are still stranded. Much of China has been drenched by heavy rains and flood since the end of May.
In Pakistan meantime, there is no end in sight to the misery caused by torrential rains. An area the size of Florida is now under water and Independence Day passed without much fanfare there. As CNN's Reza Sayah reports, many flood victims feel their government has failed them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REZA SAYAH, CNN'S PAKISTAN-BASED INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Independence Day celebrations canceled by the Pakistani government, senior government leaders saying they're going to take the money saved from those celebrations and contribute it to flood relief and recovery efforts. In the meantime the death toll from these floods is now up to 1400. The Prime Minister of Pakistan Yousaf Raza Gillani also saying the number of people affected is now 20 million. That's up from 15 million. What's incredible is that these floods hit about 15 days ago. The Pakistan navy still launching rescue and recovery missions for thousands of people still stranded in central Pakistan.
In the meantime, Pakistan's President Asif Ali Zardari continues his PR blitz to make up for what was a sharply criticized absence here in Pakistan when the floods hit. He visited northwest Pakistan, talked to some flood victims, passed out some care packages. Of course, he was criticized widely for leaving Pakistan for Europe a couple of weeks ago. Pakistan's interior minister says that criticism is unfounded. And he called it politics.
In parts of Pakistan, heavy rains came down once again and those rains are going to continue off and on for the next few weeks. Remember, monsoon season here in south Asia not scheduled to end until September.
Reza Sayah, CNN, Islamabad. (END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: All right, Reza, thank you very much. The Indus River in Pakistan is expected to crest this weekend threatening to strand thousands more people. And to find out how you can make a difference and help provide relief for flood victims in Pakistan, visit our Impact Your World page. Just log on to CNN.com/Impact.
U.S. marines returned to one of the bloodiest battlefields of World War II.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's basically a promise to the United States government that they will do everything in their power to bring their fallen warriors home. And that's the way we roll.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: A tiny patch of sand in the middle of the pacific called Tarawa. The goal, to find marines who died there more than 65 years ago.
And later, from the new Black Panthers to Shirley Sherrod to the tea party movement, race has been a big issue this summer. Now radio talk show host Dr. Laura has burst into the discussion using the N- word repeatedly on the radio.
Next, we will play her remarks and then we are having a conversation on our own, and we're trying to answer your questions as well. Is it ever OK to use the N-word?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Tarawa is a tiny dot in the south pacific. Before World War II, few Americans had ever heard of it. That abruptly changed in late 1943 when thousands of U.S. Marines stormed the beaches in an epic battle. It took three days to defeat the Japanese because they dug in there, but the cost of victory was staggering. Hundreds of dead marines were buried in mass graves and they never recovered until now.
CNN's Ted Rowlands takes us there.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PITETI TENTOA, TARAWA RESIDENT: This is where we found it, inside the hole here.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN GENERAL ASSIGNMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): About a year ago Piteti Tentoa was digging a hole with his son right next to his home.
TENTOA: We dig the hole for making a garden. And while were digging the hole, we found a bone. ROWLANDS: Piteti lives in Tarawa, the site of one of the bloodiest battles in Marine Corps history. Piteti said there was no doubt in his mind he'd found a U.S. Marine.
TENTOA: It is a very big American bone. When we look at it, it's a very long bone in the legs. The cap is an American cap and he has a can hanging on the side.
ROWLANDS: The World War II battle of Tarawa claimed more than 1,000 marines in just over 72 hours of fighting with the Japanese. After the war, the U.S. government tried but couldn't find all of the U.S. bodies that had been buried on the island. Now, more than 65 years later, the U.S. military is back on Tarawa, looking for those lost marines.
JPAC is the military unit responsible for finding and identifying lost soldiers. For the past week, the JPAC team has been digging and sifting areas where they think there may be remains, which they were doing when Piteti showed up.
CAPT. TODD NORDMAN, U.S. MARINE CORPS: He came over and basically hollered over the fence and got our attention.
ROWLANDS: Piteti took marine Captain Todd Nordman and his team inside his tiny home and showed them what he had.
STAFF SGT. JORDY ANTHONY, U.S. ARMY: Once we went there and check it out, it was eye opening.
ROWLANDS: Piteti had kept the remains in a box on this shelf above his bed. Along with the skeleton, he also found a helmet, ammunition belt and a canteen.
TENTOA: We looked after it for months and months before the American team come and look for them.
NORDMAN: His respect that he gave the remains was pretty incredible. And honestly, it gave me Goosebumps.
ROWLANDS: Then Piteti gave them something else.
STAFF SGT. KURTIS WITT, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Their captain turned around and this guy handed him a projectile.
I instantly said, you don't need this in your house.
ROWLANDS: The crew took the bomb away. The remains were bagged and labeled and will be analyzed for identification. Piteti says after taking care of the remains he feels connected to them and told us he'd like to meet the soldier's family some day.
TENTOA: They will be very happy and see the body of their boy or their father or their brother coming back home to America.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: And CNN's Ted Rowlands joins us now live from Tarawa. It is now Sunday afternoon there.
Ted, do the searchers have any clue where the other marines might be buried?
ROWLANDS: Yes. They've got research that they are working on. There are six separate gravesites, potential gravesites that they are working. They are on to their second. The first one proved to have nothing in it. Obviously it will be more difficult to find the marines that have buried other than it was to find the one that Piteti brought up. He was one of three people that have already brought remains that had been dug up here on this island. The marines plan to be here for more than a month. They believe that there could be up to 500 marines buried here at Tarawa.
Don?
LEMON: Wow, interesting. So once the remains are recovered, what's the process then? Where do they go and what becomes of them?
ROWLANDS: They are processed here on the site. And then they will be moved to Honolulu, Hawaii, where JPAC has the state-of-the-art basically crime lab. They will take those bones, look for clues in them. If there's dental work, that gives them a huge advantage. But they use military records and use what clues the bones give them and then they weed out different possibilities. And in the end they say they are very confident that in most cases they can actually make an identification some 65 years later, just working on the information that they have, the records and the bones.
LEMON: CNN's Ted Rowlands. Thank you, Ted.
She was a White House official social planner for, oh, about a year. Now Desiree Rogers is running some of the most influential magazines in the country. Our conversation about her new job and her old one after the break.
And there is no excuse for being late to school, if you ride this bus. Look at that. It goes pretty fast and we're going to explain the motivation behind this one, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right, everybody. This is going to put an end to all the wondering about what happened with Desiree Rogers, from the White House to the publishing house. Desiree Rogers has a new job. Rogers was social secretary for President Obama until she resigned in February. Her office grabbed headlines a couple months before that when two people crashed a White House state dinner getting past the secret service without an invitation. Now Desiree Rogers, who has an MBA from Harvard will lead the firm that publishes two icons in black publishing. We're talking about "Ebony" and "Jet" magazines. Desiree Rogers joins us now live from Chicago.
Thanks for being here, Desiree. How are you doing?
DESIREE ROGERS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SECRETARY: I am doing well. Happy to be talking to you.
LEMON: Yes, it's good to see you again. I have to say, Desiree, I remember first meeting you as the lottery lady in Chicago, and then following you -- and on and on, and then you became the White House social secretary. We'll talk about your new job, which is a very prestigious job, but let's clear up what happened. People say you left because of what happened with the Salahis. Can you talk about that?
ROGERS: Well, you know what? That really is the past. As I've said before, you know, it's important for Washington to be focused on those things that are so important to running our country. You know, I felt that it was time for me to move on. The president and first lady had asked me really to build the foundation for what they wanted the White House to be, which is the people's house, and I think that I did that. And I think that the group that's there now are certainly executing on that foundation.
LEMON: Would you do it again?
ROGERS: Absolutely. I mean, who would not be honored to serve the president and first lady of the United States? You know, it was a fabulous opportunity and I was really happy to be in a position to serve my country, and also dear friends, the president and the first lady.
LEMON: OK. And we're going to move on, trust me. But no regrets, right?
ROGERS: Absolutely, not.
LEMON: What do you think of them being reality stars and to find out a lot of this was based on doing a reality show?
ROGERS: You know what? I really have no comment. None at all. None at all.
LEMON: OK. Let's move on. We want to talk -- thank you, Desiree. Let's talk about --
ROGERS: Yes. Let's move on.
LEMON: Let's talk about your new job now. The publishing industry, especially magazines, they are really hurting right now, especially with the economy, ad revenue is down. How are you planning on improving the Johnson situation, "Ebony" and "Jet" magazines?
ROGERS: Well, I think a couple things. The first thing is, these are iconic brands. They are brands that have a following and certainly are loved in the African-American community. So I believe the first thing we have to focus on is our content and making certain that we're modern, energized, that we're providing our readers with information and topics that they are interested in. And I also think that we need to improve our digital platforms as well. I believe that, you know, if we can do that, if we can show our advertisers that, in fact, we do have those markets covered, the advertising revenue will be there. I was just looking at another competitor's ads for September, and they're huge.
LEMON: Are you talking about "Essence?"
(LAUGHTER)
You're not going to reveal it?
ROGERS: I'm not going to say the word.
OK. You're talking about another magazine.
ROGERS: Another magazine.
LEMON: Listen, people talk a lot about the old boys' network, but you have been able to take advantage of a really powerful group of women, black women, a network in Chicago, which includes your boss, Linda Johnson Rice, the owner of the company, First Lady Michelle Obama, also Valerie Jarrett, who is an adviser to the president. Talk to us about the girls club.
ROGERS: Well, I think, you know, there's women power. I think that women continue to advance in the United States. I think that there is a women's network. Many of the reporters that I've done interviews with -- you might be the first male, Don -- that I have done interviews with, have been women and women that I've come across in your business. And so I really do believe that there is an opportunity to really have women pull together. And people have been very helpful to me in the publishing industry. Anna Wintour has been fabulous in opening up her rolodex to me and really helping me get a little bit of the lay of the land.
LEMON: Listen, I appreciate you being so candid and that you're stepping out front and talking about all of the issues and not avoiding them. On the September issue of "Ebony" magazine, President Obama. I'm not going to really wonder how you got that interview. You probably just made -- you probably just made a phone call.
(LAUGHTER)
Desiree, thank you. Best of luck to you.
ROGERS: Thank you so much. And I hope that you have your September issue.
LEMON: I do.
(LAUGHTER)
Appreciate it.
ROGERS: Great.
LEMON: Coming up here on CNN, rare coins are discovered fairly often but archaeologists say they have never seen one quite like this one. We'll tell you where they found it. And it's bigger than normal. And how does a Scottish fish farmer manage to feed more than four thousand kids all over the world every single day? This week's CNN hero when we come right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Police in Buffalo, New York, tonight have charged a 25- year-old man with murder after a deadly shooting early this morning. Four people were killed when gun fire erupted outside a crowded downtown restaurant. Four people were wounded, one critically. One of the victims was a man celebrating his wedding anniversary. Authorities aren't commenting on whether the suspect knew his victims or not.
The world of jazz has lost one of its true legends. Singer songwriter and actress Abbey Lincoln has died at the age of 80. Her voice and her talent were her tickets to fame over her long career. But she also made quite an impression on the silver screen. Lincoln was also an outspoken voice in the Civil Rights movement.
Zsa Zsa Gabor is back in the hospital. Her second health emergency in less than a month. Gabor who is 93 underwent surgery last night to remove a blood clot. Her publicist says the clot is a complication from hip replacement surgery she had three weeks ago. Gabor, a starlet from the '50s and '60s is also known for her nine marriages.
Let's talk heroes now. From a pint in the pub to the poorest places on earth. This week's CNN hero turned a beer-filled brainstorm into a feeding program for hundreds of thousands of school children. * is serving a meal a day to some of the world's hungriest kids. Take a look at how a single act of kindness took on a life of its own.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MAGNUS MACFARLANE, CHAMPIONING CHILDREN: I never expected my life to change in this way.
My brother and I were having a pint in our local pub. We'd seen a news report about a refugee camp in Bosnia and we began saying, wouldn't it be wonderful if we could just do one small thing to help. We gathered food and blankets and clothing and drove them out there.
I'm Magnus MacFarlane-Barrow, and I gave up my job and I sold my house to try and help the people in Bosnia. Out of that has grown the organization which today feeds around 412,000 children every day in 15 different countries.
We buy the food locally and then we ask that the local community take responsibility for the daily cooking and the serving of the food. By far our biggest project is here in Malawi where we're feeding about 350,000 people every day.
Our part is to allow those young people to realize their potential through feeding them, through keeping them alive and through getting them into the classroom. We began working in Haiti in 2006. In addition to feeding children, we feed the elderly. Since the earthquake, we've been involved in providing health care and we've been helping with the rebuilding of the schools.
When I think of making these meals, I think of it as a series of lots and lots of little acts of love. I have learned every small act of kindness does make a difference.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: More than 400,000 kids in 15 countries are getting nutritious meals thanks to Magnus. And to see how he is helping in Haiti or to help him deliver more meals, go to CNNHeroes.com.
We'll get radio personality Dr. Laura Schlessinger feeling the heat for this controversial comment.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CALLER: I can't believe someone like you is on the radio spewing out the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) word and I hope everybody heard it.
DR. LAURA SCHLESSINGER, RADIO HOST: I did not spew out the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) word.
CALLER: You said, (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
SCHLESSINGER: Right, I said that's what you hear.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
LEMON: That was just a small clip of her conversation where she repeatedly used the N-word 11 times in five minutes. So we are using our conversation to have one of our own -- using her conversation to have one of our own. Is it ever OK to use the N-word or any other racial or ethnic slur for that matter, even if you are talking about your own race?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: OK, guys, here we go, and get ready to weigh in and probably talk back to the television. Is it ever OK -- ever -- to use the n-word? Dr. Laura Schlessinger burned up the air waves this week when she suggested it might be because it is widely heard in parts of the African-American community, especially among rap artists and comedians. I want you to listen as Dr. Laura talks with a caller who was black and whose husband is white, called her for advice.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CALLER: I was a little caught back by the N-word that you spewed out. I have to be honest with you. But my point is, race relations --
SCHLESSINGER: Oh, then I guess you don't watch HBO or listen to any black comedians.
CALLER: But that does not make it right.
SCHLESSINGER: Yes, I think you have too much sensitivity --
CALLER: So, it's OK to say (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?
SCHLESSINGER: -- and not enough sense of humor.
CALLER: It's OK to say that word?
SCHLESSINGER: Well, it depends how it's said.
CALLER: Is it OK to say that word? Is it ever OK to say that word?
SCHLESSINGER: It's -- it depends how it's said. Black guys talking to each other seem to think it's OK.
CALLER: But you're not black. They're not black. My husband is white.
SCHLESSINGER: Oh, I see. So, a word is restricted to race. Got it. Can't do much about that.
CALLER: I can't believe someone like you is on the radio spewing out the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) word and I hope everybody heard it.
SCHLESSINGER: I did not spew out the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) word.
CALLER: You said, (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
SCHLESSINGER: Right, I said that's what you hear.
CALLER: Everybody heard it.
SCHLESSINGER: Yes, they did.
CALLER: I hope everybody heard it.
SCHLESSINGER: They did, and I'll say it again.
CALLER: So what makes it OK for you to say the word?
SCHLESSINGER: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is what you hear on HB -- why don't you let me finish a sentence?
CALLER: OK.
SCHLESSINGER: Don't take things out of context. Don't double NAACP me.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So let's talk now. Dr. Laura issued an apology the next day acknowledging she was wrong. She said, "I'm wrong." I think she said, I articulated the n-word all the way out, and I should not have done that.
So, I want to bring in our panel to discuss this now.
Jill Merritt is a cofounder of AbolishtheNWord.com. Thank you, Jill, for joining us.
There's John Ridley, the founding editor of ThatMinorityThing.com.
And, of course, Tim Wise, the author of "Colorblind."
Thanks to all of you for joining me tonight.
And so, let's do it. And some people are saying, do we have to talk about this? Yes, I think we need to talk about it. But we should talk about it more. Obvious, it's an issue right now.
OK. Tim, starting with you, your initial reaction to Dr. Laura.
TIM WISE, AUTHOR, "COLORBLIND": Well, I mean, my initial reaction is that, unfortunately, the kind of things that she was saying to this caller, not the N-word part per se but the rest of her response in which she basically dismissed this woman's concerns about racism in her own life, were all too common. It's not just Laura Schlessinger. It is, in fact, the view of millions of white Americans who whenever people of color bring up the issue of racism in their lives, we seem to want to say, oh, you're hypersensitive. You're seeing things. You have a chip on your shoulder.
And I really think and I hope that we understand this kind of dismissiveness for the racism that it is, even without the N-word, because what that amounts to saying is that you black people are so irrational, so illogical, so unintelligent that you can't even be trusted to interpret your own life. So, let me and my whiteness interpret your reality for you.
That's fundamentally racist even if the N-word had never been used.
LEMON: Jill?
JILL MERRITT, CO-FOUNDER, ABOLISHTHENWORD.COM: Hi. You know, at first glance, I was upset. I was angered. There was outrage.
But I have to say, after looking deeper into the issue, for me, I've just decided that there's a bigger problem here at hand. What's going on with the N-word, we've been working over the last four years -- speaking about the N-word, abolishing the N-word but there's something else that's pushing through. We need to talk about this and that's why it keeps coming up. We need to sit at the table and discuss racism.
There is racism in America and we need to stop trying to sweep it under the rug and act like it doesn't exist.
LEMON: John? JOHN RIDLEY, FOUNDING EDITOR, THATMINORITYTHING.COM: Well, you know, I mean, look, when I heard it, I have to be honest, but I wasn't surprised. I mean, this is Dr. Laura, consider the source. She's proved herself in the past to be homophobic, to be divisive, to be anti-feminist in some ways. So, I wasn't surprised.
I do agree with Tim and Jill that I think there are bigger issues. And that word itself were something like a speed bump. I mean, she said things in her rant like "black-think" or she said things to this woman that if you can't deal with these problems in an interracial married, you shouldn't get married outside of your race. So, I think what she's talking about is much larger than the N-word itself. We tend to get caught up on that word. It's a lightning rod.
But, again, I agree with your guest. There's a conversation to be had here. I really don't think, unfortunately, it's much of a conversation that can really be had in America.
LEMON: You know, I do think that it is a lightning rod sometimes and I wonder if it's sort of -- if it's a diversion, sometimes, from looking at the real issue as Jill said.
John, you say that using this word is like gay people using the word "queer" or other words. You think that those two terms are equal and have basically, the same emotional power?
RIDLEY: Well, I think it can be. I mean, the thing about the N- word is, yes, it has a very unfortunate history. But the reality is, if we try to take it off the table, the only people who are going to use it are going to be bigots and knuckleheads like Dr. Laura. I think -- the thing that we can do is try to remove the sting from that word. To try to abolish it is the laudable goal but I don't know --
LEMON: But here's the thing -- and I hate to interrupt you, because in this country, we have freedom of speech and Dr. Laura certainly has freedom of speech and she can say whatever she wants. That's just what we do here. And we don't want to go back to banning words and banning books and burning books and all that.
So, do we really want to abolish the N-word? That's what rappers really say when they use the N-word. They say -- they're take the word back to take some of the sting out of it, but there are people who are also bothered by rappers using it as well, Tim?
WISE: Right. Well, I mean, I think whether or not black folks are going to use the word, that's a debate for black folks to have. I really don't think anyone who isn't black
LEMON: OK.
WISE: -- ought to be in on that.
Let me give you an analogy to make the point. I'm from the South, I don't much like the word "redneck" because I know it's often a slur against rural, working class whites. But I got to be honest, when Jeff Foxworthy, the comedian, does 20 minutes of redneck jokes, it doesn't offend me that way it would have been if it were Jerry Seinfeld doing it because Foxworthy is in that family. It sort of goes back to that wisdom we understood in the third grade, which is: I can talk about my momma, but you had better not talk about my momma. And I think that's something we need to understand it.
If white folks don't like it, oh, it's a double standard. Why can't I use the word, too? History is a double standard, deal with that first and we can talk about the rest.
LEMON: And you remember "All in the Family," the Jeffersons, they would say, you know, "honky." And the other words. I don't even like to say the other word, which is, you know, something that you eat. But George Jefferson would say it all the time and Archie Bunker would say it all the time and no one would flinch. I'm sure, probably, you got some criticism back then.
I'm sorry, Jill, I cut you off.
MERRITT: Yes. You know, I just want to say that the N-word is not a word that black people own. It's not a word that we should own and it's not a word that we should try to own.
I believe deeply that the N-word is a racist word. It belongs in the same category as every other racial epithet. And to try to own it, to try to make it a term of endearment, to take the sting out of it, to just play with it in the way that some of us have, it really is -- it's dangerous. You know, it's a word that's racist and it belongs to the racist. If they want to say it, that's fine.
LEMON: All right. Listen, we have to go to break and we're going to come back and talk about this. I wonder, though, even if by sitting here, doing this, and having this conversation if we're giving too much power to that word, even more power than we should be giving it in the year 2010 -- and I wonder, as I said, if it's become a distraction?
So, I want to move on past the N-word unless you have another comment on the other side of the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: OK. Back with our conversation now.
We're going John Ridley, Tim Wise and, also, Jill Merritt, joining me to talk about Dr. Laura Schlessinger's use of the N-word.
OK. So, here's my thing -- you know, in my personal life, I do this, I talk to you guys about this as a journalist because it's part of the national conversation. I really don't care what someone calls me. If someone calls me that, then it's really more of a reflection on them if they call me the N-word. And some of the people on Twitter are agreeing. Someone says Dr. Laura was completely correct. Someone says, "I'm a black person and I really don't care what a white person calls me. It is recrimination and violence that matters."
Tim, what do you think about that? Is -- have I gone too far and people like the folks on Twitter have gone too far by saying, "I really don't care what you call me, you can call me that all day long, I really don't care"?
WISE: Well, the fact that people don't let it bother them or say they don't is one thing. That doesn't mean that we ought to have license to use it as an act of verbal violence. I think the biggest thing that Dr. Laura that was the problem, though -- and I think this is what the research says -- you know, the most problematic thing she said there was a part where the caller said, you know, a lot of times, my husband and his friend say things like, you know, what do black people this think? Is this what black people think?
And that may not sound racist, but what we know from the research is that when black and brown folks in this country feel like they're constantly having to represent for the whole group, constantly on display, constantly under a microscope, that that actually has a physical, physiological, emotional effect on people that's even greater than the use of the word. Because the thing about the word, it's so blatant. Everyone can process that. You can see what it is right away.
The subtle stuff is actually for destructive according to health research and I wish we would deal with that because I think that's the worse thing that Dr. Laura Schlessinger actually did.
LEMON: That was I was going to say here, John Ridley. Where do -- where do we go from here? I know what he's talking about when I used to call it the African-American authority when people would ask me, why, you know, about African-American or about black issues, you feel like you're the African-American authority.
So, where do we go from here, John?
RIDLEY: We'll take it to the meeting, Don. We'll go to the meeting and then we'll find out when we answer the questions.
LEMON: Where do we go from here?
RIDLEY: You know, it's difficult because, as you say, we all want to have these discussions about race and we want to try to get beyond it. But the problem is, the people who really need to have the discussion, whether they are white or black or Hispanic or Asian, they tend to self-segregate and they're not going to have this discussions.
People like you and the rest of the panel, we can have an intellectual discussion, but I think, more importantly, is that we go back to integrated groups and we have a discussion about our kids, we have discussions about lawn care or cars or schools, and we talk as people and we find out that we're really not that different and we have generally have the same concerns. Maybe we don't approach them the same way, but we're folks.
And so, yes, it'd be great to have a conversation about race, but as I said earlier, the people who need it can't have it and won't have it. The people who should have it have different conversations that, quite frankly, are better conversations. LEMON: That is tonight's "What Matters." And we're going to put that conversation up on our blog tomorrow so you can catch it again. Go to CNN.com/Don.
Again, you saw that news you missed because on Saturday nights we always want to try to catch you up on some of the news you might have missed throughout the week.
For all you parents who can't get your kids back to school fast enough, here is the bus you want. This is the bus for you. It never leaves the ground but it can really fly. A jet engine pushes a bus beyond 350 miles per hour. It's billed as the largest jet-powered vehicle in the world. The man who made it said it was revenge for all the years he was stuck riding a slow bus back and forth to school.
In Israel, a rare gold coin is being hailed as one of the greatest finds in the country's history. It was recently discovered wedged in an ancient stone wall where it was probably there for about 2,000 years. Archaeologists were shocked at how big it is, four times heavier than most other gold coins. According to trace and Egyptian queen, it dates back to 191 B.C.
I'm Don Lemon at the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta. I'll see you back here tomorrow night at 6:00, 7:00 and 10:00 p.m. Eastern. Good night.
