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Trapped Miners Alive After 19 Days; Sherrod Won't Return to USDA for Now
Aired August 24, 2010 - 09:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Live pictures from the Department of Agriculture. We're waiting for AG secretary Tom Vilsack and Shirley Sherrod to come out after their meeting today. We're all curious to know. Is Shirley Sherrod going to go back and work for the department that threw her under the bus? Bottom line. We're also going to get a chance to talk to her one on one as well after they hold this news conference. We're monitoring it. They should come to the mikes any minute now. And we will take it live.
Actually there's Shirley Sherrod right now. This is tape earlier of her arriving at the Department of Agriculture, getting ready to meet with the AG secretary. So they're still in their meeting. They'll be wrapping up soon and we'll take it live.
All right. SeaWorld plans to fight safety violations and a $75,000 fine from the government. OSHA citations come six months after a trainer was dragged to her death by a killer whale. Remember this story? CNN's Brian Todd brings us the latest.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): SeaWorld added in a statement, the demands of humane care require our zoological team to work in close physical proximity to these animals. In this 2000 interview, Brancheau described what it's like to work with the animals, appearing with a different whale.
DAWN BRANCHEAU, FORMER SEAWORLD TRAINER: She gets to know me and what I look like and the way that I interact with her all throughout the day in shows and then just spending time rubbing her down which is something I really like to do as well.
TODD: But the government says SeaWorld trainer should be barred from performing with the animals even if they stay dry unless new safety provisions are made like physical barriers, new decking systems, or oxygen supply systems for the trainers, but at least one former SeaWorld orca trainer, Carol Ray, believes the only way to keep a trainer safe is if they keep their distance and no longer go in the water.
CAROL RAY, FORMER SEAWORLD TRAINER: I don't think there's a solution that would have saved someone like Dawn if it involves water work with the animals. She was thrashed around, you know, dismembered, scalped, rammed. No spare air, no oxygen would have helped her in that situation. And I think that trainers getting in the water with those whales is just a recipe for disaster.
TODD: SeaWorld says it will appeal this finding. Meanwhile, it says its trainers are staying out of the water while it takes steps to implement recommendations from a safety review.
Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Any minute now, Shirley Sherrod and her former boss, Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack, will come out and make a public statement. We're keeping an eye out for both of them. We should learn if Sherrod has accepted his offer of a new job, and this is the first in the flesh meeting, by the way, for Sherrod and Vilsack since she became national news last month. In case you didn't watch much news during that week of July, here's a quick refresher.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHIRLEY SHERROD, FORMER USDA EMPLOYEE: I was struggling with the fact that so many black people had lost their farmland, and here I was faced with having to help a white person save their land. So, I didn't give him the full force of what I could do. I did enough so that when he --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: When Sherrod was working for the USDA in Georgia when part of that speech she gave, the NAACP actually turned up on this guy's website. Remember Andrew Breitbart, the conservative blogger? The snippet made her look like a racist because it was cut down. We didn't see the whole videotape, and she was forced to resign because of that.
And then she called CNN. She said, hey, if you heard the rest of the speech, you'd realize I was talking about overcoming my own racism. She said she was actually telling a story from her pre-USDA days in the 1980s, but her bosses didn't seem to care about the context.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERROD: The thing that really hurts is it was so easy for them to make a decision to throw me under the bridge, you know, without looking. I was asking them, please, look at the entire speech. Look at my message, and you'll see that's not the message I put out there, but no one was willing to do that. It was easy to put the blame all on me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: And then Ag Secretary Vilsack then apologized for basically pushing her out the door and told her by phone that she could have another job at the USDA if she wanted it. Sherrod said she needed to time to think about it, and that brings us to this moment. CNNs Bryan Todd is covering it for us in Washington. So, Bryan, they started the meeting about two hours ago. Do you have any idea how soon they're going to wrap up and come to the mics.
TODD: Literally, any minute now, Kyra. They're supposed to hold a news conference a few minutes ago. That's obviously running a little bit. It should happen any moment now. I think what you're about to see is some classic Washington damage control. This department and its leader, Tom Vilsack, very eager to put this whole episode behind them politically and otherwise and move ahead.
Seems that everybody jumped on that band wagon, wiped out (ph) of those remarks from Shirley Sherrod were posted online as you just said up. There, you gave the whole back story for that. Everybody jumped on the band wagon to get her out of office. The Secretary Vilsack did, the NAACP did. There were rumors and conjecture that the White House was involved in her the ouster, which they deny.
She has claimed that they have denied that. But either way, all of those entities have since apologized to Shirley Sherrod, and now, she is in a position to possibly take a new job, and one of the indications that we're getting is the job that she may be taking is with the department's office of advocacy and outreach. That would be the division of USDA that task with helping them kind of enforce their civil rights record and get that straight and also improve their image nationwide.
That would, of course, be a job that Shirley Sherrod might be ideally suited to after this episode, but we should know in a few minutes.
PHILLIPS: Yes. She would have a lot to say and a lot to be an advocate for in that regard for sure. All right. Brian, we're going to take you a live as soon as it happens. We talked a lot with Miss Sherrod during that whirlwind week in the national spotlight from her condemnation to her explanation to her vindication. So, we want to know what the next step is going to be. We're going to actually get a chance to talk to her live right here sometime this hour. After that news conference, she's going to join me.
All right. For more than two weeks, the families of trapped miners have been waiting for word and instead they got a song.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SINGING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Thirty-three Chilean miners right there singing their national anthem despite the joy on both sides of the phone line. Those miners may be months from being reunited with their loved ones. Karl Penhaul is just outside that mine in Chile. He joins us on the phone. Karl, bring us up to date on the rescue effort and why it's going to take so long to get to these guys and how long they can survive with such little food and water.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN VIDEO CORRESPONDENT: Well, the rescue effort is going on around the clock. It really is a 24-hour operation here, and even prior to the weekend when a drill actually located the area where these miners were, other miners from around the region had also be going to the mine and pull out rocks by hand or using shovels and picks something their government said was can be too dangerous for them to do.
PHILLIPS: Karl, I apologize. We'll get back to you.
Shirley Sherrod and Tom Vilsack live.
(BEGIN COVERAGE)
TOM VILSACK, AGRICULTURE SECRETARY: Shirley, during the course of our conversation, we had Dr. Joe Leonard, the assistant secretary of civil rights and Pearlie Reed, who is the assistant secretary for the administration. We had a far and good conversation.
Shirley was interested in the progress that we're trying to make in terms of settling lawsuits that have been filed against the Department for Civil Rights Violations commonly referred to as Pickford case which Shirley unfortunately knows far too much about it as a plaintiff in that case early in the process.
And I think it's fair to say that we both feel it's appropriate and necessary for the Senate to take action as quickly as possible to make sure that the appropriations for those cases are made, and that we get those cases settled as quickly as possible as well as the cases that have been filed against the department by native Americans and Hispanic and women farmers.
We also talked about the fact that in the previous eight years prior to this administration, there had been a number of claims that for whatever reasons were not fully looked at and investigated. We have reopened those cases, but we need congressional action of the statute of limitations to make sure that we do justice to those folks who were not treated fairly by the department.
Shirley was also very interested in the work that we're doing with an independent consultant, the Jackson Lewis Group which has been hired by us some time ago prior to this incident in which we asked the Jackson Lewis Group to go out into a number of states to take a real hard look at our current procedures and policies in terms of how we deal with folks who come into the farm service agencies offices in the rural development office to see if there are ways in which we can make sure that we don't have these problems of discrimination in the future.
That work will be completed sometime this year, and that becomes relevant to next steps for the department and Shirley. I did my best -- I think it is fair to say. I did my best to try to get her to come to USDA and stay at USDA on a full-time basis. We talked about the office of Advocacy and Outreach and what her unique skills could bring to that office. We also talked about the opportunity that would be made available if that was not something she was interested in doing to return to Georgia in her position as the state director.
For reasons that Shirley will get into, that doesn't fit what she needs, what she wants and what she deserves. And so we talked about the possibility of utilizing Shirley's unique characteristics and experiences and her passion, her undying passion to see discrimination rooted from this country, so that when we get the report from the consultant that tells us the steps that we need take to improve our processes and procedures at all levels, it's my intent and hope that we can ask for Shirley to assist us in some sort of consulting way for full implementation and proper implementation of those recommendations.
And I think there's no one in the country better suited to assist us in that effort than Shirley. Having been a victim of discrimination, having had a family who suffered a painful loss as a result of discrimination, having served as a director of a rural development knowing full well the programs and having worked in Georgia to begin changing things in that state so that there was fairness and full opportunity.
There's no one that can help us better in that position than Shirley. So, we are looking forward to later in the year reconnecting once the report is concluded, and we also talked very briefly about the steps we have taken internally within USDA following our study of the circumstances and some of the steps that we're taking to improve decision making at USDA. With that, Shirley.
SHERROD: Good morning. I want to say thank you to the secretary for the updates on Pickford and the discussion we've had this morning about what happened and the steps that will be taken in the future so that hopefully no one else will have to deal with what I've had to deal with over the last four or five weeks. I enjoyed my work at USDA. As most of you know, I didn't work in government prior to about a year ago now.
I only lasted 11 months, but I did enjoy that work and would want to see that work continue. I just don't think at this point, with all that has happened, I can do that either in the new position that was offered or as state director for rural development in Georgia. It doesn't mean that I'm not interested in that work because I certainly am. I was working on many of those issues long before coming to the government and would hope to be able to work on many of those issues in the future.
So, I've had lots of support from around the country. I've had many, many, many thousands of pieces of mail. Many of those I would like to answer. I need a little time to be able to deal with that. To sort of take a break from some of all that I've had to deal with over the last few weeks. And I look forward to some type of relationship with the department in the future.
We do need to work on the issues of discrimination and racism in this country, and I certainly would like to play my role in trying to help deal with it. So thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Questions for members of the media.
QUESTION: Secretary Vilsack, could you tell us a little bit about the investigation you all did into what happened? I know that was supposed to be finished.
VILSACK: Sure. You know, it starts with the responsibility that I have to take personally for making sure that instructions that are given to staff are clear and complete and comprehensive. It requires us to take a look at travel schedules to make sure that we have sufficient staff in various offices. At the time this incident occurred, I was on travel. The chief of staff was on travel. So, we need to do a better job of coordinating travel schedules.
We obviously have to take a look at the process that was used for political appointees in terms of actions and steps. We need a much more collaborative process engaging the under secretaries and senior staff members before decisions are finalized. We, obviously, also have to make sure that everyone has contact information that's accurate and complete, and we have to establish protocols for contacting folks who may be in a situation where there may be a possibility of disciplinary action to make sure that their rights are fully protected.
Political appointees were treated a little differently than career appointee and we obviously need to make sure that there's a more parallel system for political appointees, so that what Shirley went through doesn't happen again. That's the goal. These recommendations will be and are in the process of being incorporated into our procedures now.
TODD: Secretary Vilsack, Brian Todd from CNN. The afternoon that Ms. Sherrod came out and clarified what had happened and it was became clear that her remarks were taken out of context, you still stood by the removal of her at least in the immediate. Why did do you that? What changed your mind since then? Was their pressure from somewhere else outside the department?
VILSACK: No, there wasn't pressure, but because I'm not necessarily in this office. I didn't avail myself of the full range of advice and counsel. I was not aware, for example, that the undersecretary of rural development was attempting to get a hold of me to suggest that perhaps we needed to take another period of time to review.
There was obviously when the full transcript of what Shirley's remarks were made known to me, it was pretty obvious that this was a circumstantial situation where her comments were taken totally and completely out of context, and that the main message, which was a message that was very supportive of what we're trying to do at USDA was not inconsistent as I had originally thought but very consistent with what we were trying to do.
What Shirley was trying to point out was that there is and has been for sometime issues of discrimination and bias and prejudice in this country. That USDA, because of the enormity of our department, has so many opportunities to intersect with people. That there was -- there needed to be an effort to make sure that USDA was an example, an exemplary administration and exemplary department when it comes to civil rights. Obviously, with the claims that have been filed against us in the past, we have had work to do. So, all of that transpired in a couple of day period and led me to believe that I had made a mistake which I acknowledged and certainly contacted Shirley and told her I was sorry for what we had done and asked for her forgiveness, and she was gracious enough to give it to me.
DEAN NORLAND, ABC NEWS: Dean Orland from ABC News. Ms. Sherrod, is this a satisfactory conclusion to what you have gone through the past five or six weeks and wouldn't it be more a sense of completion if you had stayed in this building and worked on problems of discrimination rather than going off and taking a break and not being directly involved in the process?
VILSACK: Sounds likes a hard sell we tried to use in the office.
SHERROD: Yes, it is. The secretary did push really, really hard for me to stay and work from the inside in the position. It is a new position. I -- you know, look at what happened now, and I know he's apologized, and I accept that. I just -- and a new process is in place, and I hope that it works. I don't want to be the one to test it.
So, you know, I think there is -- I think I can be helpful to him and the department if I just take a little break and look at how I can be more helpful in the future. I guess that's enough to be said.
VILSACK: May I say this? I think it's important to understand why Shirley has unique opportunities here. In her work in Georgia, she was beginning a process of going into counties and areas of her state where there was deep poverty, high unemployment, not much outreach from previous efforts by USDA, and she was making strides to make sure that those counties that had been ignored in the process were recognized, appreciated and helped.
That's the kind of work that I suspect but I don't know but I suspect will come forward with the recommendations from the review, the two-year review, that's taking place of our programs. At that point, we can, I think, tailor an opportunity, if you will, to meet those unique characteristics, and Shirley can help us implement those recommendations with a focus where she's not worried about administrative issues, having to deal with personnel or budgets or things of that nature.
The details, the day-to-day details of a senior position. She'll be able to focus on what she was doing a good job of in Georgia, be able to spend the personal time and also to be able to balance that time. As she pointed out, she and her husband have been struggling with this for --
SHERROD: Forty-five years.
VILSACK: Forty-five years, and she got children, and more importantly, I think now grandchildren that she wants to spend time with. And so, it's perfectly understandable. I don't want anybody to think that she cannot be of significant help here. I believe she can. That's why I offered the opportunities that I did, but I think this might be a better fit for her, and I think she will be able to devote the time, attention, and passion that she wants.
QUESTION: Shirley, this question is for you. How much time are you looking to take off? And any thought or vision of what you want your future collaboration to be?
SHERROD: You know, as far as my role with the department, that will be strictly up to the secretary, and I think he's looking at getting that report in before we can discuss it. So, I have no idea how long that will take. I don't know the timetable for that. But it doesn't mean that I won't be speaking out. I've had many, many requests from around the country from people who want to hear from me.
I'd like to hear from them because I'd like to know -- I like to hear about efforts that are being made in communities that are dealing with the issue of racism and discrimination, and I really like to highlight them because I know there are people out there who care, who want to work on the issues, who are working on the issues, and I think we need more of that.
I think we need to hear those stories as we move forward. That's what this country needs. You know, we're a great country, and there are people who care. We're hearing too much from those who would want to point out the negative right now, and I really would like to concentrate on the positive.
QUESTION: What was the exact role, the exact position and the duties therein and were you tempted to take it?
SHERROD: Yes, I was tempted to take it. I'm not sure of the total role, and the secretary can speak more to that than I can at this point. I was tempted.
VILSACK: The Office of Outreach and Advocacy was created by the Congress to do work that needs to be done in USDA to make sure that people understand and appreciate what programs USDA offers and how to access them. As I think Shirley's work in Georgia pointed out, there are an awful lot of people who have no idea how broad the scope of this department is and are often because of the poverty or the difficulties of managing governments at the local level oftentimes are overwhelmed by the application process, by the complexity of the federal bureaucracy that they have to work through.
So, the idea of this office working with our civil rights office was to do a better job of integrating into those communities making sure that they understood what was available and making sure that they had access to the programs, because there are probably counties that have not accessed USDA programs that are precisely the reason why we created these programs.
What Shirley would have done in that position is that she would have overseen, if you will, that effort, to make sure that we are penetrating. In the position that I'm thinking of, in terms of the study that's going to come forward, I think she'll be able to also do that but maybe be able to focus more of her time and dig deeper than she would if she had administrative responsibilities which is what she would have had as a senior executive.
QUESTION: Are you saying that you never spoke to anyone at the White House right before Miss Sherrod stepped down? And if you did speak to someone at the White House, can you tell us who it was?
VILSACK: I didn't speak to anyone at the White House. As I said earlier, this was my responsibility, and I had to take full responsibility for it, and I continue to take full responsibility for it. I will take it for as long as I live. This was -- you know, I pride myself on the work that I do, and I know that I disappointed the president. I disappointed this administration. I disappointed the country. I disappointed Shirley. I have to live with it, and I accept that responsibility.
That's what happens when you have this kind of position. My only hope is and my belief is that despite this difficulty, despite the challenges and the problems that we've seen and that poor Shirley had to go through, maybe, just maybe, this is an opportunity for the country to have the kind of conversation that Shirley thinks we ought to have.
Maybe just maybe this will put a spotlight not necessarily on this incident but with all of these media attention, maybe there will be a spotlight on the efforts that USDA is making in the area of civil rights, is trying to solve and settle cases that have been outstanding for how many years, Shirley? 20?
SHERROD: 30.
VILSACK: Almost 30 years, is trying to open cases that were Joe denied access and review in previous years, is trying to engage in a cultural transformation so that our workforce is modernized and as diverse as the country is and is engaged in effort to try to get the programs of USDA to the people who are most in need. Not necessarily the best connected people, but the people who are most in need.
So, to me, if we're going to make anything out of this, apart from Shirley's circumstances, that's what I have to do, and that's what I'm committed to doing. I am very serious about this. I came into this office committed to trying to close the chapter of civil rights that has been a difficult chapter for USDA and a very sorted chapter.
We want to create a new chapter, and that's -- this unfortunate circumstances at least given us the opportunity to have that conversation with the nation, which, you know, if it's personal pain I have to endure for that, I'm happy to take that if we get that message out.
QUESTION: I have a question for Shirley. A few weeks ago, you said you were going to sue blogger, Andrew Breitbart. What's the status of the lawsuit and do you still think that you're going to sue him?
SHERROD: I really don't want to discuss that right now. I do think a suit will be forthcoming, but I don't want to discuss it at this time.
QUESTION: I think that wraps it up.
VILSACK: OK. Thank you, Shirley.
SHERROD: Thank you.
(END OF COVERAGE)
PHILLIPS: OK, bottom line, Shirley Sherrod is not going to go back and work for the USDA. Tom Vilsack, Ag Secretary, they had about a two-hour meeting, and he said he offered her a full-time gig. He offered her a job working for the civil rights division. He offered her the opportunity to return to Georgia and be the state director there, maybe even a possible consultant, but if you were listening, if you caught the beginning there, Shirley Sherrod said it doesn't mean she's not interested in this type of work.
She is, but she just wants to have more time to answer all of her mail, get back in touch with everybody that reached out to her during this difficult time. She wants to take a break. She does want to develop some type of relationship with the department. She just doesn't want to go back there full time or take any of the positions that the Ag Secretary offered to her.
She wants to work on issues of discrimination, and is she satisfied with this meeting and the discussion that she had with the Secretary of Agriculture? She said yes, and now, she wants to move forward. As for Tom Vilsack, he said the investigation into what happened with regard to Shirley Sherrod's case is still ongoing. He wants to make sure that what happened to her never happens again.
But for the first time there, we heard strong words from the Secretary of Agriculture, Tom Vilsack saying, that no one should be disappointed in anybody else but him. He said he takes full responsibility for what happened. He did not get in touch with the White House, that it was his fault. He made the decision to fire Shirley Sherrod without seeing that entire tape.
He said he disappointed the White House. He disappointed the country. He disappointed Shirley Sherrod, and that it's his fault and he never wants it to happen again.
We hope to talk with Shirley Sherrod coming up in the next 30 minutes. She's headed over to our bureau there in Washington, D.C. Hope that we will get a chance to talk her one-on-one.
We're going to take a quick break, and after we come back, we got some breaking news on existing home sales which have plunged to the lowest level in 15 years. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: All right. Breaking news on existing home sales, which have plunged to the lowest level in 15 years. We told you about the new report coming out last hour. Now Stephanie Elam with CNNmoney.com is joining us about, well, I guess -- how bad are the numbers, Steph?
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNNMONEY.COM: Really bad, Kyra. This is really way worse than we were expecting to see. Sales of existing homes, they've plunged more than 27 percent last month. That's nearly twice as big a drop as analysts expected.
It's also the biggest monthly decline ever. So, inventories are at the highest level in a decade. Altogether, this is not a good sign for the recovery, especially when you take into account that housing makes up about 15 percent of U.S. gross domestic product. That's second only to health care. So, it shows you how big of a chunk it is.
So, when this is weak, it really does factor into the economy and drag it down. And people have already taken such a big hit on what their hopes are worth, millions of Americans obviously counting on that for retirement. You know the plan. You sell the house, then you live off the money you've made.
Now, people have to save more, cut back on spending and that affecting the recovery because consumer spending is two-thirds of our economic activity here. So, that's a really big problem. Some analysts believe home ownership will never again be the wealth builder that it used to be, Kyra. And if that's the case, that will change the way we look at things, and that's going to affect the housing and overall economy.
PHILLIPS: So, what do you think? How much further are home prices going to slide?
ELAM: Oh, there we go with the crystal ball question. Well, this is what I can tell you. We probably have not hit the bottom yet. One economist that we did talk to said prices could fall another 15 percent.
And a lot of that has to do with foreclosures. We still have a lot of foreclosures that are hitting the market at this point. When that happens, it brings prices down. RealtyTrac says banks will probably seize one million homes by the end of the year, this year.
But if you are going to find one bright spot, it's probably this. The slump in the housing sector -- it's good if you are a buyer. Housing affordability is now near record levels in the United States. And if you take a look at the map, it shows that five of the most affordable cities -- Syracuse, New York is number one. But that federal tax credit, first-time home buyers were just chomping at the bit for. That expired in April. And that's a huge reason why home sales are falling off the cliff. People who were thinking about buying, they already did it because they wanted the tax credit, up to $8,000.
Throw in the uncertainty about the job market and the feeling that prices are still coming down, no doubt about it. People are just a little scared to get into the water. Thinking it might be a little cold, Kyra. PHILLIPS: Well, as this news is coming across, let's go ahead and look at the Big Board, Steph. Looks like Dow Jones Industrials down. (INAUDIBLE) Looks like about 136 points. Now up to --
ELAM: 137.
PHILLIPS: 137. What's this telling us?
ELAM: Yes. We definitely saw these numbers sort of jump lower in the red after the numbers came out. We were expecting a bad report; this was worse than we expected.
If you take a look at the numbers, we are off of the lows. There was a section of a little bit of time when we went below 10,000. But at the most part, this is what we expected to see after the numbers came in worse than expected. It shows you that people are jittery, and they want to see some sign that the economy is doing better, but that's not what the numbers are showing us at this point. Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right. Bottom line, not good news at all, right, Steph? I mean, is there any --
ELAM: Nope, not at all.
PHILLIPS: Keep tracking it for us. Let us know if anything else --
ELAM: I promise.
PHILLIPS: -- especially those numbers, too. Stephanie, thank you so much.
Now, in a few minutes, we're going to look at the massive recall of tainted eggs. Is it an isolated problem or a product of a system that's just completely broken? Your health could be riding on that answer. We're going to talk about it, coming right up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Let's get the latest on the massive recall of eggs. Health officials now say no further recalls are expected on top of the 550 million eggs already identified at being at risk. Food safety inspectors are still investigating the situation. They say it's a little premature to discuss the findings of the investigations so far, so we're still waiting for that. And the number of confirmed cases of salmonella has now risen to about 1,300.
Now, the risk of widespread food contamination is relatively low but the cost to your health, as we know, can be devastating. So, what should you be looking for to keep your family from getting sick? Also, what's the difference among all the eggs out there? Cage free, organic, vegetarian? Those are just three.
Let's go ahead and bring in senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen, who we started talking about about the different types of eggs this morning in our meeting. Is there any way to say one egg is safer from getting salmonella than another?
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know what, experts tell me unfortunately there isn't. There are all of these labels. Here, this one says vegetarian. This one says cage free. This one says organic. And the scientists we talked to says that will not give you any indication whether or not there is salmonella inside those eggs.
I've even heard people say oh, if they are white eggs, maybe there is no salmonella. It's the brown eggs that have salmonella. That's not the case, either. So, you can't tell. You can't even tell from cracking the egg whether there is salmonella inside.
PHILLIPS: And so, let's talk about how the salmonella gets into the egg in the first place.
COHEN: Right. Salmonella exists inside chickens. It's inside the intestinal tracts, it's in the ovaries of the hens that lay the egs, so when they lay the eggs, they have salmonella in them. Now, sort of the next question -- I'll ask it for you, Kyra --
PHILLIPS: How does it get in the chickens?
COHEN: Right. Exactly. How did it get into the chickens?
I was talking to scientists about this, and they say sometimes a chicken is just born with salmonella in it. They got it from their parents. And now, starting last month, the USDA started requiring that all new chicks had to be delivered to the farm salmonella-free. They had to arrive with papers that said this chick is salmonella free.
But that just started in July. This outbreak started in April. So, that tells you something there.
PHILLIPS: All right, so I'm taking note here. How do you check the chicks? That's going to be for our next guest.
All right. Now, even an egg that looks fine can have salmonella. So, what do we do as consumers?
COHEN: Right. There are a couple of things you can do. One, you can find out which brands have been recalled, and don't buy them. You can do that by going to CNN.com. We have a list there.
The second thing you can do is cook eggs thoroughly. No more runny yolks, no raw eggs in a hollandaise sauce. None of that; they all have to be cooked.
PHILLIPS: Got it. All right, Elizabeth, stay with us. We want to bring in a couple more guests. Both say that the system to protect our food is broken.
John Boyd, Jr. is the founder and president of the National Black Farmers Association. We have talked to John before. John, great to see you. He's had a long -- for a long time, he warned that mega farms raised the risk of widespread food problems. We're going to address that, John, with you.
Eric Schlosser says that the system needs to be fixed now. He's author of "Fast Food Nation." I think probably everybody is pretty much familiar with fast food nation by now. That's for sure, Eric.
So, why don't I start out with -- John, let me ask you, because this is something that Elizabeth and I were talking about, the different types of eggs. Is one safer than the other? Where does the salmonella come from? Bottom line, it's in the chicken. So, how do you check the chicken? Does this come down to a breakdown with regard to making sure those chicks are healthy?
JOHN BOYD, JR., PRESIDENT/FOUNDER, NATIONAL BLACK FARMERS ASSOCIATION: Yes. I have been a poultry farmer for 14 years. And the first thing they're going to have to do is go back and check the actual breed of the chicken. That's the primary breed, the actual breeder program right down to the pullets (ph). And they're going to have to check all of that.
I think the bottom line here is there should have been more inspections before the outbreak. I know Congress was looking at a bill, passing legislation to bring in more enforcement. But these mega farms where basically right now there's only 200 primary mega farms that produce 95 percent of America's eggs, and we need more small farms to produce and get into the egg production, such as myself and other small farmers around the country. So, there's a void between the large and small here that has a role to play as well.
PHILLIPS: OK. And I want to talk more about that in just a minute, but, John, let me ask you because you were a poultry farmer for so many years. Inspections didn't happen at random, right? It was only if a problem came about that that farm was inspected, correct?
BOYD: That's right, and I think the fact that the fact that this farmer was a large farmer, and also, the distributors were buying and purchasing eggs from him and relabeling them using their own label. So, there's a breakdown there as well.
So, the diseases could have came from various things, such as rodents and other -- decaying birds on the farm. You look in that chicken, manure, eggs and chickens all in the same facility, whether they're caged or the chickens are loose or make a difference on the farms in the way you have to keep them clean.
PHILLIPS: OK, so Eric, I want to you weigh in here. As you listen to John and you heard what Elizabeth was talking about, about the eggs and chickens and -- what do you think or what have you observed to be as the biggest breakdown here?
ERIC SCHLOSSER, AUTHOR, "FAST FOOD NATION": It sounds like a very complex problem, but it's actually very simple. This company had sick birds that were contaminating the eggs and it was selling eggs that were tainted. And if this company had been rigorously testing its product as it should have been, it would have found the salmonella and wouldn't have sold the eggs. There should not be salmonella in eggs.
And it's partly a breakdown in our regulatory system, but it's also a sign of what companies are willing to do to make money. Last year, we had a massive outbreak of salmonella, tens of thousands of people sickened by peanut butter. And that company was selling peanut butter that it knew was tainted with salmonella. So, this is one more sign that our food system is broken down, but also that we need stronger regulatory oversight.
There is a bill right now in the Senate that's already passed the House; the FDA Modernization Bill. And it will give the government much tougher powers to punish companies that knowingly sell contaminated food. There should not be any salmonella in eggs, and up until about 20 years ago, there really wasn't. It's once you got these mega, mega producers that put 150,000 birds in one building that you get these kinds of diseases because when you cram the birds so closely together, it's a perfect way to spread disease from one animal to another.
PHILLIPS: All right. Elizabeth, you want to weigh in, but, John, can I ask you a question? Can you tell when a bird is sick? Is it possible that the farmers --
BOYD: Absolutely, you can tell.
PHILLIPS: Okay, how can you tell?
BOYD: You can look at that bird and tell whether that bird is healthy or whether it's sick. Whether it's constantly sitting down. And if you are in the chicken house every day, you can tell whether a chicken is healthy or not.
But I want to weigh in on something he said, and there's a reason why I have been advocating for more small farmers. Small farmers have the ability to keep their farms clean, take out the dead and make sure that there's enough room. In our facility, we had 15,000 chickens that laid roughly 7,000 eggs a day. And we made sure that our facilities were clean, that the dead were picked up and everything that we needed to do.
The bigger these operations get, the more you run into problems with cleanliness on these facilities. That's what's going on here. The bigger these farms get, the more obstacles they're going to face. And there needs to be more oversight because we are producing a commodity that people are going to be eating. So, I welcome inspections for people to come out and take a look at the facility.
PHILLIPS: All right, guys, stay with me, and Elizabeth Cohen is going to weigh in as well. We're going to talk much more about this. We'll just take a quick break and be right back.
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PHILLIPS: All right. We're talking to John Boyd, Jr., founder and president of the National Black Farmers Association. Also, Eric Schlosser, author of "Fast Food Nation." Of course, our senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen about our eggs.
Elizaebeth, you wanted to throw out a question. We were talking about small farm versus mega farm. Go ahead.
COHEN: The experts I've been talking to said, look, this might be a problem with big farms. But you know what? Small farms aren't immune from it, either. Let's say, for example, that a chicken gets infected from salmonella by eating feces from rat droppings. Well, rat droppings can happen in small farms, too.
So, Eric, I'd love your thoughts on that. Are small farms really the answer? Are they really much better than big farms?
BOYD: You will find that the sanitary conditions, for example, in the meat packing industry are much worse at the big processing plants. Small farms aren't necessarily going to be perfect, but keep in mind, if you have a salmonella problem at the a small farm, that means that people in a very relatively small area are going to get sick. Whereas if you have a salmonella problem like the one we have right now, you can have tens of thousands of people getting sick.
Salmonella in eggs was not a problem in the United States until the early 1980s when these huge mega producers formed. There are other countries that have very strict salmonella programs that have done a much better job that we have at eliminating salmonella not just from eggs but from the chicken you buy at the market.
This industry has fought against regulation for the last 20 years. It looks as though we are finally going to get it, but a lot of people have been unnecessarily sickened. And food is never going to be perfectly pure. There is always going to be a food-borne illness, but right now there is much too much. And a lot of people, mainly children, are suffering unnecessarily.
PHILLIPS: John and Eric, let me ask you about these FDA rules that were implemented basically a month after this all apparently was discovered in May. In June, the FDA put forward these new rules just for eggs with regard to finding salmonella. And I want your response.
It's these five points. Number one, buy chicks and young hens from suppliers monitoring salmonella bacteria. Number two, establish rodent and pest control measures to prevent spread of bacteria. Number three, conduct regular testing on poultry house for salmonella. Number four, clean and disinfect poultry houses and have tested positive for bacteria. And finally, a 36-hour deadline for refrigeration/storage or = transportation for must be kept at 45 degrees Fahrenheit.
John, is this enough, or does there need to be more?
BOYD: I think that's a great start. But I would like to talk about the rodents, which is definitely a problem on the farms and composting. I think the question needs to be asked of this farmer, how were they composting their dead chickens? All of these things have to be weighed in. But I do think that FDA bill was a very good start. More needs to be done. And there should be more inspections. There's only 200 --192 big mega operations, and there should be inspections on those 192 farms. I mean, e should be able to do that.
PHILLIPS: Eric, can that happen? Will that happen?
SCHLOSSER: The most important part of that program is testing for contamination. Basically, up until recently, this industry has been operating on the honor system in which they ship their food, say that it's safe, and nobody's been testing it.
Now, they must required to be tested for this sort of pathogen. If this company had been testing widely, it would have known it was shipping contaminated product. And if this FDA Modernization Bill passes in the Senate, it will give the FDA ability to test, to trace contaminated food back to the source and mandatorily order recalls. Right now, the FDA and the USDA cannot order a recall of contaminated food. It's voluntary. All of this serves these big food companies' interests, but not the interests of consumers.
PHILLIPS: And John, you say you can definitely tell when a chicken is sick. And if indeed --
BOYD: You can look at it, yes.
PHILLIPS: Well, if indeed, that was what was going on on these various farms where we're getting contaminated eggs, I mean, that's disgusting. If you can see that they're --
BOYD: I think it is, too.
PHILLIPS: How can you live with yourself on a daily basis knowing you are selling eggs from sick chickens?
BOYD: I think it goes back to small versus big. These are mega operations where the chicken houses are built on top of each other, 500 and 600 feet long. They are packing the chickens into these facilities, some in cages.
We don't support the chickens being in cages. I support a free flowing bird within a chicken house and having enough room to grow -- to grow and to lay eggs, and they can go in and out of their nests to lay these eggs. So, there needs to be more regulation and a hard look at whether the chickens should be in cages or not. And that's something that the National Black Farmers Association does not support. So, there's things like that that definitely need more -- more regulation.
PHILLIPS: Well, we've got to open up the Boyd family farm again. John Boyd, Eric Schlosser -
BOYD: Yes, we do.
PHILLIPS: -- and Elizabeth Cohen.
BOYD: And Kyra? PHILLIPS: Yes -- final thought.
BOYD: I would like to send a shout out to Shirley Sherrod. I was listening. We wish her well, and I hope that Secretary Vilsack will help us get this $1.25 billion so black farmers can get their settlements.
PHILLIPS: I had a feeling you were going to say something -- I'll tell you what. I want to hear from Shirley Sherrod, since we have heard that apparently, the USDA didn't have the resources for these inspections. I wanted to get her input on this egg situation as well. Hopefully we'll get a chance to ask her that.
Eric, John, Elizabeth, guys, thank you so much.
SCHLOSSER: Thank you
BOYD: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: All right. Quick break. We'll be right back.
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PHILLIPS: This that special time of our newscast where we honor a service member who made the ultimate sacrifice in Iraq or Afghanistan. We call it "Home and Away." We're going to let you know how you can be a part of the project in just a minute.
But right now, we want to tell you about corporal Larry Harris from Thornton, Colorado. He was killed in combat in the Helmand Province in Afghanistan last month. His wife, Stacia, told us that he died while helping a fellow Marine. She says that he always put others first. Quote, "He loved his job and loved being a Marine. I will always remember the way he smiled and laughed. He lit up a room. A lot of people will remember my husband for the way he loved to dance and always brought such a positive energy to everything he did."
Well, we want to honor every fallen hero who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Help us out. Go to CNN.com/homeandaway. Type in your service member's name in the upper right-hand search field, pull up the profile and send us your thoughts and pictures. We promise to keep the memory of your loved one alive.
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PHILLIPS: Well, that does it for me. I'll be back here tomorrow. Tony Harris picks it up at the top of the hour. And Tony, the interview that we both wanted, you're going to get it. You going to be able to talk to one of our favorites, Shirley Sherrod.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Is Shirley - is she in the chair?
PHILLIPS: She's - she's getting ready for you.
HARRIS: OK.
PHILLIPS: She's in the D.C. bureau. As you know, she didn't take the job at the USDA.
HARRIS: Right. Right, right, right.
PHILLIPS: Tom Vilsack, who threw her under the bus, offered her all kinds of options -
HARRIS: Yes, yes, yes.
PHILLIPS: -- and Shirley said, no thank you.
HARRIS: Look. If you think about it, what can she do with her future from this moment on -- should I be looking at the camera? I want to talk to you, and you're there.
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PHILLIPS: Do you want me to come over and join you?
HARRIS: Should we do a split or something? Something. But think about it? What can she do with her future from his point on. We'll ask her that question in just a couple of minutes. What do you think?
PHILLIPS: Here's what you've got to do. I'll come over there. Here's what you've got to do. You've got to find out -- you know this.
HARRIS: Yes. Yes.
PHILLIPS: I've got my list of questions. Do you want me to give them to you?
HARRIS: Well, OK. All right. All right.
PHILLIPS: But seriously, you're right, and a lot of reporters asked that in the news conference, could she have more of an impact if she were to stay with the USDA, or does she have a bigger impact leaving and doing more national, international --
HARRIS: I understand, yes, the loose shape and the description of the job seemed pretty undefined. Right? Pretty amorphous.
So how do you do the job as it was being described to us? I'm sure she asked the same question. And I don't know how you do the job. And she's got a number of opportunities. We've seen her life and followed it since all of this blew up.
PHILLIPS: Yes. Bottom line, she is the perfect advocate for issues of discrimination and race, and she's going to do great things. Right?
HARRIS: Now she's got a platform.
PHILLIPS: See you later. Have a great show.
HARRIS: Are we done?
PHILLIPS: Well, I guess we're finished.
HARRIS: Is that good?
PHILLIPS: You and I could talk about race and all of that for hours.
HARRIS: Forever. All right. Have a great day, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right.
