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Who Owns the Dream?; Nagin on Katrina Five Years Later; California Prison Riot; Film Questions Levees

Aired August 28, 2010 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Two big developing stories to report to you tonight -- one in New Orleans and the other in the nation's capital.

At this very hour five years ago, people along the Gulf Coast, and especially in this city, were fighting for their very existence, fleeing a massive hurricane heading right toward them. I'll talk with Ray Nagin, the man some still blame for the disastrous aftermath.

And another storm of sorts brewing in the nation's capital right and spreading across this country. It's over who can claim ownership of Dr. King's civil rights dream? The Reverend Al Sharpton joins me live at this hour.

(MUSIC)

LEMON: Good evening, everyone. I'm Don Lemon.

We'll have extensive coverage live from New Orleans right near Jackson Square on this fifth anniversary of Hurricane Katrina.

But, first, we want to get to the 47th anniversary of Dr. Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" speech.

Two large competing rallies in Washington, each claiming Dr. King's message as their own. On one side, conservative firebrand and FOX TV host Glenn Beck holding on event at the Lincoln Memorial, the site of the iconic speech by Dr. King. Some distance away, the Reverend Al Sharpton echoed King's 1963 march on Washington with a march to the site of the proposed memorial to King.

Beck's message of God and country was none controversial, but his choice of date and low case did not sit well with Sharpton and others.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)

GLENN BECK, FOX NEWS HOST & RALLY ORGANIZER: What is it today that America truly believes in? We have very little trust in most of our institutions. But there is one thing that still is 15 points higher, at the top of the list, on things that America trusts, our military.

REV. AL SHARPTON, ORGANIZER, "RECLAIM THE DREAM": They told me that others are going to be at the Mall. And they are going to be standing where Dr. King stood. Well, they may have the Mall, but we have the message. They may have the platform. But we have the dream.

(END VIDEO CLIPS)

LEMON: CNN political producer Shannon Travis joins us now live from Washington.

Shannon, who was at the rally on the Mall? Was there diversity in this crowd?

SHANNON TRAVIS, CNN POLITICAL PRODUCER: Yes. It's an interesting question. I mean, the message from Glenn Beck's rally was obviously about coming together in unity. It wasn't a whole lot of coming together in terms of ethnicity however. You did see some African- Americans in the crowd, that cannot be refuted, but, by and large, the crowd was mostly white. Women, men, but definitely mostly white.

Another thing to note, though -- it seems as if a lot of the attendees at the rally are particularly sensitive to claims, notions, stereotypes that they are somehow racist. We saw a lot of people out in the crowd saying, you know, do I look like a racist? We saw other people with t-shirts saying "racist" with a circle and a line drawn through it.

So, although there was definitely a lack of diversity in the crowd, it seems like a lot of the attendees are particularly sensitive to it and again, with the Martin Luther King Jr.'s message of equality and unity, a lot of them stress that. So, there was a lack of diversity, but there was definitely an embrace of an ideal of coming together.

LEMON: And, Shannon, you know, people at the Beck rally were promised a nonpolitical event. Is that what they got?

TRAVIS: By and large, yes. Beck asked people who were attending to not carry any kind of overtly political signs. Most of the crowd, again, honored that request.

There were a smattering, and I really mean in the minority of people who were carrying Tea Party banners or the classic Tea Party flag that they carry, "Don't Tread on Me." Other people with some signs about Obama. But, again, it was definitely in the minority.

So, by and large, it was a nonpolitical event that basically touched on themes of integrity, and truth and honor. That was actually the name of the event, restoring honor to the country.

LEMON: All right. Shannon Travis in Washington today, reporting on the Glenn Beck rally.

Make sure you stay with us because coming up -- the Reverend Al Sharpton is going to join us live to talk about today's competing rallies. How the late civil rights leader might have viewed Glenn Beck's rally and who really owns a dream articulated by Dr. King 47 years ago, on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial?

We're going to turn now to our special coverage of Hurricane Katrina and the five-year anniversary of the storm's assault on the Gulf Coast. The man at the center of the storm is back in the city -- back in the city, then literally and figuratively was now former mayor, Ray Nagin. He's no longer in office but he still has some very strong opinions. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Do you have any regrets about that time, about anything that happened? What are your regrets?

RAY NAGIN, FORMER NEW ORLEANS MAYOR: Well, you know, I'm kind of a guy who makes decisions and moves on. I don't think about them a whole lot. But I do reflect on certain things and I've been doing that a lot. You know, the mandatory evacuation could have been a little earlier.

LEMON: What -- do you -- so that is a regret? You want the mandatory evacuation to be earlier. How much earlier?

NAGIN: I think it could have been done about eight hours earlier. It appeared at the time after I spoke with Max Mayfield, which was about 9:00 that night, and we called evacuation about the same time that next morning. And we could have done it a little earlier, but it was the first one.

LEMON: Your fault?

NAGIN: I'm the ultimate guy, yes.

LEMON: So, you take responsibility for not evacuating the city earlier.

NAGIN: Absolutely.

LEMON: Do you remember the chocolate city comment?

NAGIN: How could I not? How could I forget it?

LEMON: Have you seen the Ray Nagin coloring book?

NAGIN: I saw that, the coloring book, you know, when they came out. But I never really got into it.

LEMON: Do you get the humor? Or does that -- does it tick you off or are you OK with that?

NAGIN: You know, I think that's kind of crossing the line. I mean, that's -- that's got some racial undertones in it. You know, black man is a bunny rabbit. I mean, come on.

LEMON: I was driving in Mississippi listening to the road and I heard live: get off your --

NAGIN: Ass and get moving to New Orleans. Yes, excuse me everybody in America, but I am pissed.

There was a lot of frustration, man. I was, you know, in the middle of the disaster. I was at the Superdome. I was in the Hyatt. I was in streets and, you know, it just wasn't moving and more importantly, I was watching people in Baton Rouge and Washington saying everything was OK.

LEMON: Yes.

NAGIN: And it was just a bold face lie. So, I kind of lost it and I got a little temper.

LEMON: How do you define success after Katrina? Because New Orleans was sort of at the bottom when it comes to poverty.

NAGIN: Right.

LEMON: All of those issues, jobs, everything -- is it getting back to the level it was or is it getting better than it was, you know, before Katrina?

NAGIN: I think it's getting better. I mean, but, you know --

LEMON: How do you define success?

NAGIN: I define success in any city -- a city is about its people. And we were a city that had no people in it. Now, we're a city that has over 80 percent of its population back, lowest unemployment in the country, construction everywhere. I think we're on our way to success.

LEMON: Did you have aspirations beyond mayor before Katrina? Was Katrina the reason that you -- because you had said, I'm done with politics.

NAGIN: You know, I am an executive. So, I don't -- I'm not a legislature. So, there were only two real roles that I thought I could play and that was mayor or governor. But when I saw the results from the Obama election, I said, there's no way in hell I'm going to be governor. So, I might as well do something else.

LEMON: Explain that.

NAGIN: Well, only I thought that Obama would win Louisiana. I thought he would get an overwhelming majority of the African-American vote, which he did. But I thought he would at least get 25 percent of the white vote. Not even close. He got like 8 percent or 9 percent.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: That was Mayor Ray Nagin. And despite the controversy surrounding Katrina, Ray Nagin won re-election as New Orleans' mayor in 2006. He left office earlier this year after serving two terms.

And Nagin tells me, these days, despite his love for the Saints, he rarely goes inside the Superdome. "The memories are just too painful," he says.

Imagine being forced to flee your home and never returning again. Just ahead: one family's incredible survival story.

(VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: That is the sound of optimism from half a mile underground. And inside look at how trapped miners in Chile are living and what they're saying while they wait to be rescued.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, who owns the dream articulated 47 years ago by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.? Who owns that dream?

On today's anniversary of that famous speech, two groups in Washington sought to lay claim to Dr. King's message. At the site where Dr. King delivered the speech in 1963 was conservative TV host, Glenn Beck, invoking King's name. Many civil rights activists feel that that was a poke in the eye at Dr. King's legacy. And not far away, the Reverend Al Sharpton led a competing rally and march to the site of the proposed King memorial.

CNN contributor John Avlon, a political independent, joins us now live from Washington. He is also a contributor to the "The Daily Beast."

John, good to see you.

Glenn Beck said he would use the rally to reclaim civil rights. And here's what he said on his radio program back in May. Take a listen and we'll talk about it.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

BECK: This is a moment, honestly, that I think we reclaim the civil rights movement. It has been so distorted and so turned upside down because we must repair honor and integrity and honesty first. I tell you right now: we are on the right side of history. We are on the side of individual freedoms and liberties and damn it, we'll reclaim the civil rights moment. We will take that movement because we were the people that did it in the first place.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

LEMON: OK, John. Two questions here. Does he have a point? And number two, really more importantly, who the heck is Glenn Beck to deliver that message to the country? Why does he feel that he has the right to do that?

JOHN AVLON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, reclaiming the civil rights movement raises the question from whom? Look, the legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King is something that is now a source of pride to all Americans. It's something that we agree on.

But it's important to appreciate that 47 years ago that unanimity did not exist, that Dr. King was a deeply controversial figure, and that conservative populists at the time were opposing him every step of the way. And that's where the sensitivities get in. When you got Glenn Beck who has famously called president Obama a racist with a deep- seated hatred of white people, you can understand why this message that he's trying to promote of unity and somehow owning Dr. Martin Luther King's legacy for the conservative populist movement he represents doesn't sit well. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why that's controversial -- even in the context of today, which was basically a religious revival.

LEMON: Well, here's the thing -- John, I want to ask you, you know, is it disingenuous of Glenn Beck and conservatives to say, well, we can reclaim the civil rights dream? It's kind of the same argument that I've heard from some, as the mosque. Certainly have the right to do it and to have a "dream" speech or whatever you want to do in the capital -- but what about the wisdom of doing that, especially considering what Dr. King and this dream means to African-Americans?

AVLON: Exactly. Ironically, the arguments for sensitivity are being flipped around. You know, people are playing partisan politics with almost everything. You know, they're agreeing (ph) for greater sensitivity when it comes to the mosque but not necessarily when it comes to the 47th anniversary of the "I Have a Dream" speech.

Look, I think that, you know, Martin Luther King is a source of national pride. But there does come a moment where I think the conservative movement needs to acknowledge that some of them at the time were wrong when it came to civil rights. It's not a Republican/Democrat thing. I mean, George Wallace was a Democrat.

But when Dr. Martin Luther King stood on the steps of the Washington Mall and decried, his lips dripping with language of interposition and nullification -- and there are some folks today arguing for nullification as a tool to roll back health care, you've got a historical, cognitive dissidence here. And we need to confront our history, to be honest about it, and then transcend it. And that's what hasn't been happening.

LEMON: Yes. And as you said, sensitivity. There's sensitivity when it comes to the mosque issue but we're not hearing much sensitivity when it comes to this Dr. King issue.

But here's my other question, too. I wonder if by covering this, and I don't mean just CNN, I mean all media, are we playing right into Glenn Beck's hand? Maybe he wants to run for office? Maybe he's increasing his platform? Because he didn't say anything that he couldn't have said on his TV show or his radio show.

AVLON: Well, you know, even further than that -- I mean, I think, initially when Glenn Beck announced this march on Washington, this speech at the Lincoln Memorial, it was to announce his 100-year plan for America. And he pivoted away from partisan politics towards a religious survival essentially, a salute to the troops. That's a decision he made which is -- which is interesting and I think it does say that electoral politics are not his ambition.

The question is -- you know, today he spoke a what object his concern about divisions in the country and the growing hate in our discourse. Well, you know, you need to take ownership and look at yourself there. That if you're pumping up that sort of hate and division in pursuit of ratings, you can't just pivot to a higher message and expect no one to put the two together. You know, you got -- you got to be consistent about the message you're delivering, and that's one thing we did not see today. You can't preach -- say you're concerned about hate and division and then sow those seeds to pump up ratings.

LEMON: John Avlon, thank you very much, sir.

AVLON: Thank you.

LEMON: Thirty-three miners stuck a half mile below ground in Chile --

(VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: -- remaining optimistic despite the fact they could be stuck there until Christmas. But now, there's a new plan that could get these guys home sooner. CNN's Karl Penhaul will join me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Well, new hope in Chile for the 33 miners trapped deep underground nearly -- for nearly three weeks now. Engineers feared at first that they would be unable to free the men for four months. Imagine that. But a new plan could bring them to the surface much, much sooner.

Karl Penhaul joins us now from Copiapo, Chile, to tell us more.

What's this new plan?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we we've been talking in the last few hours to the mining engineers of a private mining company who are working in tandem with the government rescue effort. And the new plan would consist in bringing a different drill on to the site, to the mine -- the mine that once that's out of the way, is behind me there. It's working 24 hours a day.

But when they bring that new drill and essentially the drill that's actually is used to bore water holes. It's not a real mining drill at such. It moves a little faster than the drill that they have in place.

And it would also drill from the different position using one of those four-inch ducts that is already in place, the ones where the food is being passed down. It would use one of those four-inch diameter ducts as the guide hole and drill down there much faster. That said, what they say, they predict that if that plan would have worked, it could half the time it would take to reach the miners, and then, thus, that would mean about two months to pull the miners out of the bowels of the earth.

But in fact, in just the last few minutes, the mining minister, Laurence Golborne, has held a press conference and among the things he said is: let's not create false expectations here. Yes, there is a plan B. But we don't know for sure whether it will work.

Well, this really is part of the strategy that the government has been giving. What we know is that they've told the miners their worst-case scenario that they could be down there until Christmas. They don't want to create false hopes for them either. If they can get them out sooner, so be it -- also much the better, Don.

LEMON: And, Karl, just from what we have seen, the men appear to be in good spirits because they were speaking into the camera. We'll try to play some of it a little bit later on here on CNN.

Karl Penhaul, Copiapo, Chile -- we appreciate your reporting tonight.

In the meantime, a new documentary shows the emotional battle parents go through while trying to get their kids into charter schools in New York City.

CNN education contributor, Steve Perry, actually runs a Connecticut charter school and he takes us behind the scenes of a documentary in today's "Perry's Principles."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEVE PERRY, CNN EDUCATION CONTRIBUTOR (voice-over): For Eric and Shawna Roachford, to get their son into a high-performing Harlem charter school, they have to win the lottery, literally. The Roachfords were profiled in the movie "The Lottery." It explores the emotional process parents go through to get their child into a strong school.

The final step is a massive lottery drawing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Welcome.

PERRY: A few hundred children are randomly selected out of thousands to win seats in the most sought-after schools.

SHAWNA ROACHFORD, PARENT: The people were kind of like sitting on the edge, you know? Just waiting and hoping.

ERIC ROACHFORD, PARENT: Symbolizes greater opportunities.

UNIDENTIFIED KID: Barack Obama has those black shoes.

PERRY: Laurie Brown-Goodwine is raising her son, Gregory, alone. Her husband is in prison. Unhappy with her zone school, Goodwine entered a dozen lotteries.

LAURIE BROWN-GOODWINE, PARENT: I kept saying, all right, if I put him in a local school which maybe up the block, even though I know it's OK, am I throwing him into a failing situation?

PERRY: Filmmaker Madeleine Sackler wants to highlight the inequity of school choice.

MADELEINE SACKLER, FILMMAKER: We've actually had the film described as like a horror movie. There's over 3,000 applicants for about 475 spots, and yet, they go because they're just dying for something better. PERRY: That something better is a charter school -- a public school funded by tax dollars but run independently and with more freedom than traditional schools.

Finally, off the waiting list, Gregory attends a charter school.

BROWN-GOODWINE: You can see the difference in him. Look, I mean, I see it in him too, now.

PERRY: As for the Roachfords, they're still waiting for their name to be called.

S. ROACHFORD: I feel that every school should be excellent and that we shouldn't have to be in a position to make that kind of decision.

PERRY: Steve Perry, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: All right. Steve, thanks very much.

Just ahead here on CNN: the tale of two rallies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BECK: I can relate to Martin Luther King probably the most because we haven't carved him in marble yet. He's still a man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: FOX News personality Glenn Beck sparked a controversy by hosting a rally on the same steps where Martin Luther King Jr. gave his "I Have a Dream speech" 47 years ago today.

Well, this man right here, the Reverend Al Sharpton, held a rally of his own remembering the historic day. He's going to join me next with his take on today's events.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Today marks the 47th anniversary of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s "I Have a Dream" speech. But at the Lincoln Memorial, the massive rally was not -- was not by civil rights leaders but by conservative talk show host, Glenn Beck. He had said he would use the event to lay claim to the civil rights movement. And in doing so, today, he repeatedly invoked the name of Dr. King.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BECK: I think I can relate to Martin Luther King out of all of these giants. I can relate to Martin Luther King probably the most because we haven't carved him in marble yet. He's still a man! And that's the message that man makes a difference.

What is it that these men have that you don't? What is it? Abraham Lincoln, the American Indian, Frederick Douglass, the moon shot, the pioneers -- what is it they have that you don't have? The answer is: nothing. They are exactly like you. They just did the hard thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, the Reverend Al Sharpton held a competing rally and march in Washington and he joins me now from New York.

Reverend Al Sharpton, good to see you. What do you make of Glenn Beck's rally on this today in this location?

SHARPTON: Well, I mean, I think first of all, this is the anniversary of Dr. King's speech where he outlined his dreams -- some very clear social policy, calling on a strong federal government to protect us against states' rights and state's interposing and nullifying federal law.

So I think that when I hear what you just played -- because I didn't watch his rally, we were at our rally and marching -- when he talks about the character of some great leaders and leadership abilities, that might be good. But that's not what the "I Have a Dream" is about. This is not Dr. King's birthday. This is his policy speech day.

Our rally was to talk about the dream, the goals of the dream, the goals of Dr. King's speech and where they are and where they are not today. So, I think we were meeting on two different things.

LEMON: Yes. And I'm paraphrasing Glenn Beck here, Reverend. He said when he picked this date he didn't realize it was the same date as Dr. King's dream, but then after thinking about it, he realized that it was a moment and that maybe the stars had aligned in some way and it was supposed to happen and to use this message to take back, in some way, or to reclaim the civil rights movement.

SHARPTON: Well, you didn't have to ask yourself after what you heard, did he reclaim it? I mean, because what civil rights agenda did he lay out? From what I'm seeing, it was a motivational speech. That doesn't deal with civil rights.

Civil rights is what we dealt with, the fact that people of color in this country, the blacks are still doubly unemployed. The fact that there's an education gap four or five grades between black students and white students, three grades with Latino students. The Secretary of Education Arne Duncan was there. We talked about the criminal justice system. That is civil rights. His intention was to deal with civil rights and he should have addressed civil rights issues. A motivational speech I think - it might be good but it's not civil rights.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: And Reverend, I have to ask you this. I asked our producer reporting on this, he went to Glenn Beck's rally. I'll ask this question from one of our viewers. It says, "Don, I bet Beck's rally today was more racially diverse than Sharpton's. So which side is more racist?" And that's coming from someone on Twitter. Can you respond to that, Reverend?

SHARPTON: First of all, they'd be wrong. We had people of all races there. Whites, blacks, and you can show the footage (INAUDIBLE) and the speakers. Whites, Arne Duncan spoke. The Michael Mullgrew spoke, the head of the teacher's union in New York. Ed Schultz spoke. Latinos, the head of La Raza spoke, the Hispanic federation spoke. Every major civil rights leader. Head of the Urban League, the head of NAACP, gay and lesbian activists spoke.

So I don't know what they - if you have gay and lesbian activists, heads of women's group, heads of labor, heads of white organizations, and Latinos, I don't know how you get more diverse than that. I don't know how diverse Mr. Beck's rally was but ours was very diverse. You can't fight for civil rights for anyone unless you're fighting for everyone.

LEMON: The Reverend Al Sharpton joining us from New York. Reverend, thank you so much.

SHARPTON: Thank you.

LEMON: The levees that broke five years ago tomorrow let the floodwaters in to do their devastation on New Orleans. Now, a new documentary questions the levees then and now. We'll talk to the director, next.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We're live in New Orleans for the fifth anniversary of Hurricane Katrina and the fury that really that storm really caused. Let's take a live look now at New Orleans. You can see, the horse- drawn carriages that are there, lined up on the streets here and we see those all over the French quarter, mostly in the French quarter but all over the city. You can see the city struggling to get back to normal, struggling to get back to normal but much of the devastation that was caused to this city came from a surge of water that broke through the levees.

Now the Army Corps of Engineers says the walls keeping out the water are much stronger. They say they're much stronger now but a new documentary coming out tomorrow puts into question, even doubting if Katrina was a natural disaster. It's called "The Big Uneasy." And Harry Shearer directed it. First, Harry, thanks for joining us.

HARRY SHEARER, DIRECTOR "THE BIG UNEASY": Thank you, Don.

LEMON: It's good to see you.

SHEARER: My pleasure.

LEMON: You know, people think of you as a comedic actor but you also write columns. You're also a director, a filmmaker. You do everything. And you live right here in New Orleans.

SHEER: Walking distance from where we are.

LEMON: What does your documentary say? What do you make of the levee system?

SHEARER: Well, first of all, it's not what I think. My documentary follows the two leaders of the two independent investigations based on major universities after the city flooded, who were not satisfied, who began to doubt the official explanation, who put together teams of eminent scientists and engineers, conducted year-long investigations and came to the conclusion this was a man-made, not only was this a man-made disaster unlike the Mississippi gulf coast, hurricane, this was, a natural disaster but this was, in the words of one of the investigators, the largest man-made engineering catastrophe since Chernobyl. Chernobyl is the big leagues.

LEMON: And I want to get this quote correct. Because the Army Corps of Engineers said quote, the design of the levee at present "the best humans can do at this time.' Do you have any specific proof in your documentary that this is not the case? This is not the best.

SHEARER: What we have right now?

LEMON: Yes.

SHEARER: We have a whistle blower from inside the corps whose job was to test and install the new pump. It's part of the new system. She says that pumps never passed their tests even when the standards kept being lowered and yet, they were installed anyway and they will not survive a hurricane event.

LEMON: So this is an investigative documentary?

SHEARER: Yes, it is.

LEMON: So what did you - along the way, how were you treated when you went in to ask these tough questions to the Army Corps and to officials and all of that?

SHEARER: Well, the Army Corps basically has a way of saying, you know, I've seen their responses after other screw-ups and they always say, well, you know, "we're human." You don't say that beforehand. What you say beforehand is it's the best anybody could do. Now, you say, oh, it's humans make mistakes. Well, you made a $14 billion mistake -- it wasn't $14 billion. It was a $100 million mistake this time it's $14 billion.

Dr. Bob (INAUDIBLE) of UC Berkeley says they use the same low factor of safety for this and that's engineer talk for cushion for this system that they used the last time, much lower than they used for rural dams.

LEMON: Is that the biggest thing that your documentary reveals? If not, what is?

SHEARER: I think this was a man-made disaster. We, federal taxpayers, thought we were buying a system to protect New Orleans and instead we bought a system that almost killed New Orleans.

LEMON: You interviewed some people and some judges and people at the Army Corps of engineers. We want to play a little bit of your documentary and then we'll talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The corps has called out all the time because they're not very good at covering their tracks. So there have been plenty of federal judge who have talked about how dysfunctional they are.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we value all of the constructive criticism we get and we'll produce a much better product.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: All right. So he said we'll produce a much better product. Did you get an overall sense in doing this that there would - that your documentary might inspire some changes or that did you believe what they were saying when they said "it will be much better this time?"

SHEARER: I think skepticism is a good policy with regard to the Army Corps of Engineers, not just in New Orleans but around the country, people in Sacramento know what I'm talking about. They have a levee system (INAUDIBLE) Army Corps. They've been warned the same thing could happen to them. And if it happened to them (INAUDIBLE) California. You know, I just think that we need to be very, very careful when we hear these reassurances. Because we heard the same reassurances before Katrina.

LEMON: A natural disaster, right?

SHEARER: A man-made disaster.

LEMON: A man-made disaster that comes out tomorrow?

SHEARER: Monday. TheBigUneas.com for show times around the country.

LEMON: When someone ask you, like is said, people don't realize that you live in New Orleans -

SHEARER: Yes.

LEMON: What do you make of this city five years later? This is the first time since I've been back. It feels likes progress slow and they need help in many areas but it feels like New Orleans is coming back.

SHEARER: This is the year. I think the beginning of this year that we started feeling the city sort of really starting to rise up again. The one thing that bothers me is we have no statistical idea where the 100,000 people who evacuated were or are or whether they like where they are or were they want to come home? That's amazing to me.

LEMON: We need to figure that out. I'm sure you will. That should be your next documentary.

SHEARER: Right. LEMON: Larry, thank you.

SHEARER: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: We appreciate. We're enjoying New Orleans.

SHEARER: Thank you.

LEMON: Go out and enjoy a little bit later on.

You know, promises were made, but were they kept? CNN's Anderson Cooper returns to New Orleans and the gulf coast. See what he found coming up in "Katrina's Wake: A Building up of America," an "AC 360" special tonight, 8:00 p.m. Eastern, only here on CNN.

Pakistan is facing its own Katrina right now. More than 1,600 have died and millions have fled the floodwaters. Our Dr. Sanjay Gupta takes us there, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And hello, everyone. I'm Tony Harris at CNN World Headquarters in Atlanta. We will get you back to Don in New Orleans in just a couple of minutes.

First, a look at some of today's top stories.

Another food recall. This one involving beef to tell you about. (INAUDIBLE) Meat Solutions has recalled about 8,500 pounds of ground beef. That may be contaminated with E. coli. The USDA says it believes BJ's Wholesale Club Stores in the northeast of Virginia and Maryland received the products. Three people were reportedly became ill. Two in Maine and one in New York.

Guards opened fire last night to stop what was described as a major riot at California's Folsom State Prison. The riot broke out in the prison's main yard and involved about 200 inmates. There were no fatalities but seven inmates were injured. It is not clear what triggered the riot.

And more than 4,000 square miles of federal fishing waters, off the coast of western Louisiana, are now opened for business. That is more than seven percent of the total area closed because of the BP oil spill in the gulf. Officials say they are reopening these areas after extensive testing of seafood to make sure it's safe. More than 48,000 square miles remain close.

Even now, five years after Katrina hit the gulf coast and New Orleans still hadn't completely recovered. And Pakistan has similar disasters unfolding on a much larger scale. Our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta is in the flood zone reporting on the chaos and the tragedy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Here's how it works. You see police vehicles like this actually coming through the streets, telling people to leave. They say that this particular area, this town of Baila (ph), will be underwater in the next several hours and certainly by tomorrow. People are listening. This town will normally be bustling. Thousands of people milling around and shops opened. None of that is happening now.

Most people actually are leaving like this. By foot, in the hot sun, walking for kilometers with no real idea of where exactly they're going or what they're going to find there. It is easy to see why they are leaving. We're literally surrounded by water and they're worried that that water is just going to get higher and higher. So they are fleeing the floods with the priority that they value the most, their livestock and just starting to walk.

This is where so many of them ended up. They just walking for kilometers and kilometers down that hot road, looking for high land, anything to protect them from the floodwaters. Look at what their lives are like now? Thousands of people, literally they have this little barrier here. It is so hot outside, anything to try to keep themselves cool. But this is the new normal life for lots of folks over here.

This family, for example - he says about 15 miles, 15 kilometers or something. Small children. They walked here, again, in this very hot weather. Very, very difficult. He's telling me they'll really haven't received any kind of help at all. They're saying they have no food at all. All they have is this bag of sugar here. Which they used to make tea.

This is how it is. This is what's happening here in the middle of this evacuation. There's also been no water here. They tell me for three days. In fact, a woman died in this area from dehydration just last night.

There's no question that relief is slow coming here. But even as we're filming today at the camp, this Pakistani Army helicopter comes over and drops some parcels of food. But this is just one camp. There are thousands of camps like this. More than 20 million people displaced, a fifth of the country is under water.

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HARRIS: CNN'S chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. I'm Tony Harris at the CNN World Headquarters in Atlanta. Now back to Don in New Orleans. Don?

LEMON: Hey, Tony. There's a band behind me, it's called "Jam balaya." And they're doing a great version of "I've been loving you" by Otis Redding. Can you hear it?

HARRIS: Well, let me tell you something. I can't hear the bank and you mentioned one of my faves, all time. Otis Redding. That is a terrific song and boy, I wish I could hear more of it. But I love that they're playing it and I love the reporting that you're doing from down there tonight, Don.

LEMON: Tony, thank you so much. Thanks for doing our news updates.

HARRIS: Sure.

LEMON: I'll see you next week or I'll see you later on tonight. You'll be here until 11:00 p.m. Eastern.

HARRIS: Yes.

LEMON: Thank you, Tony. Talk to you in a bit.

Next up, I want to introduce you to a family that called New Orleans home, that was until Katrina hit. They thought they were evacuating for a few days but never went back home. They join me live, right after the break.

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LEMON: You know, for many people, no matter what their address says, New Orleans is a place that they call home and that sure holds true for Lydia Walker-Thompson, one of more than a million people who fled the region in the days before Hurricane Katrina hit. Now, she left with four kids and her parents and what they thought was going to be a three-day evacuation really turned out to be a relocation to another state.

And the family settled in Washington, D.C., in the area. And Lydia, thanks for joining us. She joins us tonight with her four kids, the oldest 17-year-old John, 12-year-old David. Faith who is eight. And then their youngest, Joseph, who is seven years old. Lydia's mom, Belinda McGee-Walker is also here. She's there with them. You can see they're waving right there.

Lydia, do you ever think about moving back here? It's a great city.

LYDIA WALKER-THOMPSON, HURRICANE KATRINA SURVIVOR: I always think about moving back. I love New Orleans. Every day. Every day I think about coming back home.

LEMON: Every day.

WALKER-THOMPSON: Just looking at that picture - looking at that picture made me really kind of get teary-eyed and I say that because they were babies and it was a hard struggle, a hard decision to choose to come here knowing that or hearing that we couldn't go back home. So to see that picture and now to see how big my kids are now, it hurts that they won't be in New Orleans to experience the culture, the language, just the whole lifestyle. But I had to be selfish and we had to move here instead.

LEMON: Yes. Listen, I want to talk to John because your mother tells me you have had a tough time since Hurricane Katrina. You know, there was a study they just did that said I think 160,000 kids who survived Hurricane Katrina, they said about one in three of them had depression or some sort of anxiety problems. What do you make of that and the kids who are suffering from depression and other problems after Hurricane Katrina? JOHN HUDERSON, HURRICANE KATRINA SURVIVOR: I think that most of us - it was a changing process and we are used to being around certain people at the time and really it was not a depression. We had to just learn some new culture.

WALKER-THOMPSON: I think that's why it's so important - I think that's why it was important even with dealing with the whole adjustment. Parents were going through things, yes but the children were dealing with something, being a teacher, I did come across some students that came up from New Orleans, and it was the schools and the churches that needed to be a larger force in their lives to help them to do the adjusting.

We had some good schools that helped with that process, and we had some schools that did not, you know, surround the students like they should have in order to help them through those processes.

LEMON: Yes, Lydia, I want to get back to John on that because, John, interviewing some kids, especially kids around your age, because fashion becomes important and the games you have at home and the kind of computer you have and personal devices that you have. Many of the kids I spoke to said they felt different. They didn't feel like they were at the other kids because they didn't have as much money or they didn't have as much gadgets and any of that and that added to the depression or to the problems that they had.

HUDERSON: Well, being from New Orleans, I learned to make the most of everything I had. So like most people from New Orleans are musicians and with music they're like able to make themselves happier. So I like to be the best at what I do. So I wouldn't let anybody tell me that I couldn't be at someone else's level because I didn't have this or we didn't have as much money.

LEMON: Yes. So can I talk to Faith. Faith, you were just three years old at the time. Do you remember anything about Katrina?

FAITH THOMPSON, HURRICANE KATRINA SURVIVOR: Well, I don't really remember any of the stuff. I was a baby. I can't remember stuff. I'm eight 8 years old now.

LEMON: Yes, well, you never know -

FAITH THOMPSON: All I remember is our house got flooded.

LEMON: That you had your what?

FAITH THOMPSON: All I remember is our house got flooded.

WALKER-THOMPSON: See, that's the thing, they were babies. They were babies and they didn't remember a whole lot of things that was going on. It was the trek from leaving home to Franklinton, from Franklinton and me saying we have to leave. I think one of the few things that they remember is the fact that we had to - the car accident that landed us in between Morton and (INAUDIBLE) Mississippi. So as far as my oldest, he knew more, so it affected him differently. And that's the reason why I said if the schools were such a major thing. So that's the reason we got here and he went to Washington (INAUDIBLE) Academy and from there he went to a public school system and ended up at three state academy because of this transition. It was different for him and I realized that he was going through some depression. So, yes, I tell you it affected each of my kids differently. But my younger ones didn't remember. It's the two older ones that had issues dealing with separation.

LEMON: That really had the issues. Yes. Listen, I'm sorry about the delay and it's so loud here. Some of the things I couldn't hear what you're saying. But I want to thank Lydia, John, David, Faith, Joseph and Belinda. All the best to you and I hope that you get back to New Orleans, at least for a visit soon.

WALKER-THOMPSON: We come home every summer. We come home every summer.

LEMON: All right.

HUDERSON: I want to say hi to friends.

LEMON: Thank you, guys.

HUDERSON: My good friends, Paul.

LEMON: Good luck, guys. We have to run. We have to run now and, again, I apologize for the delay and the noise, I'm having a little bit of trouble hearing you guys. Best of luck to you.

In the meantime, I want to talk to you about a serial killer who makes a great TV character. But should he be sold alongside children's toys? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So trying to catch you up on some of the news you might have missed throughout the week. Here are a couple of stories for you.

Baseball fans in Arlington, Texas, were all geared up for the Rangers and Twins game just the other day when the U.S. Army Golden Knights dropped in. That looks nice, right, except for one soldier who didn't quite make it to the field. His chute got snagged on the center field pole, the center flagpole. Other than being a bit embarrassed, the soldier was fine once he got back on the ground. The team leader said it was a difficult jump because of the shifting winds. He's OK, though. No worries.

You know, if you're not familiar with the TV show "Dexter." It's about a vigilante serial killer who targets other killers. No surprise that there is an action figure of "Dexter." It comes with a tiny saw and bloody glove and the TV show dismembers his victims to dispose of the bodies. Toys R'Us though tells us - our affiliate WBNS in Ohio that only a small number of the action figures were stocked and that it wasn't the only retailer to carry them. Of course, the concern there is they were being sold in the kids' section, in the toy section.

I'm Don Lemon, live from New Orleans. Fifth anniversary of Hurricane Katrina. I'll see you back here at 10:00 p.m. Eastern. I want to show you some sights and sounds of New Orleans before we get out of here. It is a beautiful evening. it started out to be a very rainy day but it ended on a beautiful note.

There you see some of the artists right here in Jackson Square. They are painting. There's a "Who Dat Nation," of course, we're talking about the New Orleans Saints.

"IN KATRINA'S WAKE: A BUILDING UP OF AMERICA," AC 360 special is next. See you back at 10:00.