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Pastor to Address Sex Charges; Championing Mental Health

Aired September 25, 2010 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Good everyone, I'm Don Lemon. Thanks for joining us.

Tonight we're going to devote the better part of this hour to a discussion about the controversy swirling around Bishop Eddie Long. Among those joining us Ted Haggard, a man who faced his own sex scandal while a minister. But first we want to catch up on some of the top stories.

They are drying out in the upper Midwest, but the water left behind from recent storms is causing some big problems. Torrential downpours have led to days of rising flood waters in parts of Minnesota and Wisconsin. No reports of deaths or injuries though. But the flooding is expected to last throughout the weekend.

A federal judge is ordering the air force to reinstate an openly lesbian flight nurse. Major Margaret Witt was discharged in 2007 under the military's, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, but the judge ruled the discharge violated Witt's constitutional rights. This past week the Senate blocked a defense bill that would have repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

A watch dog group for the separation of church and state is criticizing a concert staged today at Fort Bragg, Carolina. The "Rock the Fort" event was put on by the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, which has staged similar events on other U.S. Military bases. Critics said the gathering blurred the line between the state, in this case the military and religion.

The leader of one of the biggest churches in America is under siege right now because of a string of sexual allegations against him. We're talking about the Bishop Eddie Long of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church just outside of Atlanta. He says he'll speak tomorrow to his congregation about the charges made in civil lawsuits this week by four young men who had been church members. Long's address to his flock, well, it could make or break a huge religious empire he built since he took over New Birth, that was back in 1987. The church had 300 members when Long became pastor. Well, today, it claims more than 25,000 members.

Let's get you up-to-date on this developing story now with CNN's Martin Savidge. He has been looking into these shocking allegations and the evolving story here.

So tell us about tomorrow's church service. We've been going back and forth about exactly what he is going to say, what the media is going to be allowed to hear and so on and so forth.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No question, the most important day probably in Bishop Long's life as being a religious leader. And it's going to begin at 8:00 in the morning. There are two services tomorrow, 8:00 and 11:00.

And as far as the media participation of being able to cover the event, there will be the first half hour of the service up until Bishop Long arrives. That will be available. CNN will have a pool camera inside. There will also be the church feed. That's all going on.

At 8:30 when he comes in, it all stops. CNN camera will be asked to leave and the feed from the church service will stop. The reporters who are there will be allowed to remain. They will hear what the bishop says to his congregation, but that is considered to be a private moment for the bishop to speak to his family as they put it.

LEMON: But reasoning behind that? Are they explaining that to you?

SAVIDGE: No, not yet. Other than -- they believe that it's, obviously, a very important communication he is going to make. They do not say in any way, shape, or form what his message is going to be.

LEMON: Here's what people have been saying, the comments, and just people have been just sort of -- I don't know, thinking or assuming this, that he may say something or is going to say something or possibly admitted to something that he doesn't want repeated over and over on videotape.

SAVIDGE: Well, I mean, there will be a live stream fed on the Internet that you can access by going to the church's Web site. The reality is, it's doubtful that will uphold to all of the people that will be logging on to try to see this. But it is possible, we could, in fact, see him make this statement.

But beyond that, he's going to hold a press conference between the two church services. The media's invited -- all accredited news people can be on hand and ask what they want of Bishop Long and of his attorneys.

LEMON: All right. Martin Savidge, thank you.

First, there were two, three and now, there are four young men who are accusing Bishop Eddie Long of coercing them on into sex.

Martin Savidge, thank you so much. We appreciate it.

We're going to move on now and talk about this sexual misconduct happens every day. But when the allegations are directed at the clergy, it is especially unsettling.

Ted Haggard has had his own sex scandal and crisis of faith. It was back in 2006. And he joins us from Denver.

Thank you so much for joining us, Ted. How are you doing today?

TED HAGGARD, FACED DRUG & SEX SCANDAL IN 2006: I'm doing well. Good to see you, Don.

LEMON: Good to see you. What do you make of these allegations against Bishop Eddie Long?

HAGGARD: Well, it's very sad. I think it points out to me that over and over and over again, we all hope that our leaders don't have sin in their life or don't fail, but when we look, we find out leaders are just like everybody else.

Whether he's guilty of these particular allegations or not, there are other faults in everybody's life. Everybody needs grace. Everybody's going to fail.

Everybody is, in some measure, a hypocrite in one way or another, and that's always disappointing. And so, I think it just points out to us that we are all humans and we all struggle with the human condition.

LEMON: So, listen, I want to play this, because as with what happened with you, it was said that you were hypocritical in the sense because at first, you didn't tell the truth about it. You said, well, you know, that -- these allegations are false.

HAGGARD: Right.

LEMON: And you didn't believe in gay marriage and that you didn't believe in homosexuality at all.

So, I want to talk about this -- because Bishop Eddie Long also has said the same things. He doesn't believe in gay marriage. He says it's against God and, as a matter of fact, to me, when I interviewed him back in October of last year, he said the same thing -- I don't believe in gay marriage. It is against God.

Play number two for me, Tom. We're going to talk about a marriage ceremony or a commitment ceremony that he is alleged to have had with one of the young men.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

B.J. BERNSTEIN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYER: Eventually, it turned into such a relationship that the bishop had a ceremony with Anthony Flagg called a covenant. Within that covenant, it was essentially a marriage ceremony where there were some candles, exchange of jewelry, and biblical quotes given in order for Anthony to know and for the bishop to tell him, "I will always have your back and you will always have mine."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, Reverend, is this a matter of hypocrisy? Listen, innocent until proven guilty. If the bishop, you know, does come out -- who knows what he's going to say tomorrow? But is it a matter of hypocrisy here --

HAGGARD: Right.

LEMON: -- when we hear these allegations?

HAGGARD: Well, I think -- I think it's an issue of incongruity. He probably has a -- now, I'm just guessing here -- but he probably has a theological position that motivates him in some areas of his life. Then he has -- if these allegations are true -- then there's the reality of his own humanity that he's struggling with.

And, of course, the big goal is for all of us to become increasingly congruent between our faith, our belief system, and our own actions. And so, certainly, if what he's going to go through is what I went through, I had to face myself and accept the realities of me -- who I was, what was going on, how that interfaces with Scripture, how that interfaces with life, and get those issues settled. And that's what happens when people go through a crisis like this.

LEMON: So, the church is a very --

HAGGARD: Yes, I know. It's very confusing.

LEMON: It is.

HAGGARD: And it's heartbreaking but we see it all of the time.

LEMON: But what I'm saying is, the church is a very forgiving place -- a very forgiving place. But -- and you admitted these things --

HAGGARD: Well, theologically it is.

LEMON: But you still lost your post and you still lost your church.

HAGGARD: Yes, and well, that's the same thing. People have a theology, a belief system and then the realities. And so, Christians know all have sinned and fall short in the glory of God. And Christians know Jesus died for everybody. We don't have any righteousness on our own. But yet Christians are judgmental, that's the same type of congruity. And that happens -- that's why life teaches all of us.

So, these four men are going through some lessons in life, maybe about their own vulnerabilities and their own actions. Eddie -- Bishop Long is going through the same type of thing. So, we from the outside when we look at this, we see this as an incredible learning moment for all of us. But where we become hypocrites is we may say, well, I'm judging him now for hypocrisy and I'm judging the men for not being maybe as responsible as they should to stand up under pressure or whatever.

I think what we need to be from the outside is supportive and encouraging for all parties concerned. Let the church handle this. Let the legal authorities handle this. There's four civil lawsuits.

But our role is to pray that -- there's a tomorrow for all of them -- and to pray that all of them become better men, just like all of us become better men and women as we go through disappointing things in life.

LEMON: OK, listen, there were -- with you, there were e-mails and they tracked your, you know, your credit cards and they tracked online and whatever -- whatever. And you -- I believe you said you got to a point where there was so much evidence where -- that you were glad that that evidence was out there because there was no turning back. You had to tell the truth.

Let's listen to number six and we're going to talk about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERNSTEIN: I have the bishop's private e-mail addresses, more than one. He would text them. He would write them.

They were not saying they're pornographic material -- but this bishop, why, this man who's so power, who's supposed to be busy ministering to his flock, has time to email them back and forth, over and over, throughout the day. Send me a picture of you at school. Not naked or not anywhere, but whatever it is, just send me a picture of you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Again, Reverend, innocent till proven guilty. Does any of this sound familiar to you?

HAGGARD: Right. Well, I think everybody in ministry e-mails a lot of people, texts a lot of people. The content of those texts and e-mails is what is important, not the fact that he does that.

The same way with traveling with people -- all megachurch pastors have to have people travel with them in order to get things done and things like that. What counts -- so traveling isn't indicative of itself. What's indicative is what goes on during those trips.

And all that's yet to come out. All of that will be discussed tomorrow at church, then there will be additional responses. And so, I would just encourage everybody to understand -- this reflects the human condition in a variety of different ways. And we all need to look at that, let it warn us and let it help every one of us as we watch this.

But it won't help all of us if we're just judgmental and harsh. Instead, we need to learn from the four men. We need to learn from --

LEMON: Yes.

HAGGARD: -- what's going to with the bishop. And be sympathetic and helpful to wives, children, and understand these are people. They aren't just symbols. They're people -- LEMON: OK.

HAGGARD: -- that we all need to be concerned about. There's enough hate in the world. We can all use a little more love.

LEMON: Reverend, thank you. And I want you to stand-by because we have a lot more to talk about.

The reverend is going to rejoin us in just a little bit.

Plus, what do the members of Bishop Eddie Long's church think about all of this? We have three of them right here and we'll ask them, along with a former employee of the church. And a look at the role of the black church in the lives of its members.

And we want you to be part of this conversation tonight. You can go on to any of the social network sites, any of the social media there that you see, and send us a comment. We will get on that air and we'll post to our guests.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Bishop Eddie Long isn't the only one named in the lawsuit against him. So is a New Birth Missionary Baptist Church. But Long's congregation for the most part appears to be standing behind him. This support essentially has something to do with the fact that nothing has been proven yet. Remember that nothing has been proven yet. These are all allegations.

But we want to bring in a panel to ask, what it also says about the faith of the black community, about faith in the black community.

Mark Lamont Hill is a Columbia University professor and he is a host of a syndicated TV show that's called "Our World With Black Enterprise," and then Shayne Lee is a professor at Tulane University and is the author of several books examining American religion and culture.

Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us.

So, Mark, is there a tendency in the black community to elevate church leaders to the level of superstars?

MARC LAMONT HILL, HOST, "OUR WORLD WITH BLACK ENTERPRISE": Oh, absolutely. We've seen that since the very beginning of black people's journey here in America. For a long time, preachers are one of the few people who had access to education. They're one the few people who could exercise true leadership.

And for so long, the black church has been a centerpiece, of not just black religious life, but black cultural and black political life. So, preachers are superstars. Before we had presidents and senators, we had celebrity preachers and we continue to sort of raise them up now.

LEMON: So, Shayne Lee, is that necessarily a bad thing? SHAYNE LEE, ASSOC. PROFESSOR, TULANE UNIVERSITY: It depends. It can be good because I think competition in having people ministers learn from each other and prove their messages and their ministries, their technologies, their ways of meeting their needs and tastes of people, I think that's a good thing. But when you build a spiritual empire, it creates new pragmatic realities that you have to deal with. And that means generating large sums of money and that might challenge the prophetic nature of your ministry, causing you to take shortcuts or even causing you to buy into the hype and to see yourself as a star rather than as a humble servant.

So, I think it could be good in enhancing the professionalism of the black church, but it could also be something that, you know, "Pride comes before a fall," as the Bible says.

LEMON: Yes.

And, Marc, why -- you're shaking your head very certainly there. What's going on? Why are you doing that?

HILL: Well, because -- well, because it's so easy you know to be seduced by the cars and the jets and the attention. I mean, you can be -- instead of being a prophet, you can actually just become a pimp. I'm not talking about Eddie Long in particular. I'm talking about anyone who has access to that much adoration at one time.

And I think what we've seen -- and Shayne talks about this actually in his book -- is that many of these preachers have become America's preachers. Many of these people have become people who have transcended even racial boundaries.

And so, when you get an Eddie Long or some of these other -- you know, megachurch ministers, there's a huge possibility, a huge trap, that you can fall into if you're not careful. You could start to think you're God rather than God's prophet.

LEMON: Well, that's what I was going to say, you know, Shayne and Marc. You know, doing this whole story for the past week or so now, I've heard everyone talk about the bishop, my bishop, my bishop, whatever going to stand by him -- which is great. You should stand by on your bishop.

No one has mentioned God or Jesus or Christ in any of this -- Shayne?

LEE: To be fair to Bishop Long, I think that part of his success and the reason why people are so loyal is because he's very effective at preaching a message that speaks to their needs. He's effective at speaking in a language that people understand and his ministry, along with, you know, his own personal finances have done a lot to help the needy, help poor people. So, there is a side to Bishop Long that generates loyalty that comes from -- you know, he does have a humble servant's heart alongside a huge ego and cocky attitude, and bold, kind of masculine presence. So, he is a complex figure. And I think we have to realize both sides of the equation. LEMON: And might that -- I'm just asking -- might that explain the pictures in the bathroom with the tight spandex or whatever, is that he's bold and cocky and that's just sort of his -- the way that he does business differently than old school preachers?

HILL: Well, there's nothing -- nothing new school about that. Preachers have been doing this since day one. I mean, that's a very generous interpretation, and if this happens to be one of the greatest scandals perpetrated by the plaintiffs, then that could be true.

What I think is more likely is that this is someone who's ego got the best of him, who's desire got the best of him -- someone who lost track of his calling and as a result, ended up in a very, very bad place. And all that we can do is hope that he and the victims make it out.

But those pictures are very damning. I can't imagine any kind of a reasonable explanation for that type of activity from a preacher.

LEMON: That's what I'm going to ask you, Shayne -- if we could put those pictures back up. Seriously, and I'm just -- how do you explain that? You say this is, you know, I'm sending this to you because I want you to work on your spiritual muscle? I mean, how would you -- how would one explain sending those pictures to someone?

LEE: I'm very curious to see how Bishop Long explains it. But I'm surprised that he's going to do a press conference where he's going to take questions because, Don, your very question is what's going to be asked. Then he's going to have to come up with some crazy -- some kind of -- (INAUDIBLE) gymnastics to exegete that picture and to show it in a way where it's not damaging. I totally agree with Marc.

LEMON: Long itself has preached that homosexuality is a sin. It's not unique in the black church. And is that part of the problem -- not necessarily teaching that homosexuality a sin, that's number one the hypocrisy, but also the acceptance of gays and lesbians in the black church.

I read a "Newsweek" article, Marc, saying when are gays and lesbians in the black church going to be treated as equals, or even allowed into the fold?

HILL: Right. I mean, the fundamental question is: will they be treated as human beings, you know? While this is not unusual in the black church, there are strands of black religious thought that are much more open and much more sort of understanding, those who follow the tradition of Jesus and the love ethic is the primary thing that I will love all people and all neighbors as myself.

Other churches, like Eddie Long's, are not only antigay but they're very adamant and extravagant in their campaign against gay/lesbian people.

LEMON: Which is really odd to me -- which is really odd to me, coming from African-Americans who have been discriminated against -- I don't understand why people who've been discriminated against will then turn around and discriminate against other people. They know how it feels.

HILL: Well, I think that there's a sense of shame and embarrassment in the black church. And in the black community in general, I think there's a deep of shame around sexual identity, around homosexuality --

LEMON: OK.

HILL: -- and around sexual abuse. And I think that's you see these types of things happening.

LEMON: Shayne, five seconds. I got to run. What did you want to say?

LEE: It's just this evangelical see the Bible as the authoritative word of God, and as long as they can --

LEMON: OK.

LEE: -- plain reading condemns homosexuality, it's going to be problem.

LEMON: All right. These guys are going to be back with us in a moment. Stay with us, guys.

We've heard what the accusers have to say. Well, tomorrow you're going to hear what Bishop Long has to say. But when we come back we'll talk live with several members of Long's congregation. What they think about these allegations.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Their spiritual leader is under fire, so what kind of toll is the bishop's scandal taking on the members of his church. And do they continue to stand behind Bishop Eddie Long?

Joining me right here is Atlanta now is John Campbell III, Gary Foster, and Gabrielle Richards. Thanks to all of you for joining us. They all attend New Birth Missionary Baptist Church. And via Skype from London, we have Kevin Bond. He is a Grammy-award winning producer and a former employee of New Birth.

Kevin, I want to start with you. And I want to ask you since you're now observing from the outside -- do you think that most of the members of the church will stand behind Bishop Long?

KEVIN BOND, FORMER NEW BIRTH EMPLOYEE: First of all, thanks, Don, for the opportunity. I do. The black church is very loyal, even sometimes to a fault. But at the same time, many of them came to Christ under Bishop Long's ministry. So, they will definitely be loyal and trust that he's innocent and hope that these charges can be proven to not be true.

LEMON: And what about your feelings about this? I asked you about them. How do you feel about this?

BOND: Well, without a shadow of the doubt, the information is certainly damaging. The evidence and all of the things that are coming out slowly one piece at a time -- all of that is very troubling to many of us in the gospel community and the Christian community. And it is also my hope that these things are not true and that he'll be able to prove his innocence.

LEMON: OK.

So, John, why do you stand behind the bishop?

JOHN CAMPBELL III, NEW BIRTH CHURCH MEMBER: I personally stand behind the bishop because he's my leader, and as members of the body of Christ, it is our duty to stand behind and lift the arms of our prophet. And that's what I will continue to do until he gives me reason not to.

LEMON: And what about you, Gabrielle?

GABRIELLE A. RICHARDS, NEW BIRTH CHURCH MEMBER: I've been a member for almost eight years now. And ever since I've been there, the ministry has done so much for my family and I, for my friends and I, and for my schoolmates. I stand behind the ministry.

LEMON: OK. Gary?

GARY A. FOSTER, JR., NEW BIRTH CHURCH MEMBER: I stand behind the bishop because of the leader that he is. He is a true leader. The word that he gives is so rich and it's so life-changing. There is something about bishop that you just respect. And I support the ministry because the ministry has supported me. And --

LEMON: When he was -- when he was supposed to speak out on the radio show and then speak out at other times and he didn't, did that -- did that concern you at all, Gabrielle, when -- are you at all asking yourself, any of you, why isn't he talking about this?

RICHARDS: Well, I feel as though he's following his spirit, because it may not be the point of time for them to step out yet. He wants to address his congregation on Sunday and that's what he wants to do. I agree with that.

BOND: Don --

LEMON: Go ahead.

BOND: Don, I think --

LEMON: Hang on. Hang on one second. I want to hear this young man and then we'll get to you, Kevin.

CAMPBELL: I feel this is very typical of bishop. The bishop is a family-oriented man and he will view New Birth as his family, so I do see why he would delay speaking to the radio before speaking to his congregation. LEMON: Kevin, go ahead.

BOND: Well, we understand the delay, but even those of us in Christendom that are not members of New Birth, we also want to hear from Bishop Long. And there are those that have supported his ministry, bought the books, bought the videos and tapes and the CDs as well, and we do want him to speak out so that whatever this clout of suspicion is over him, you know, can be dispersed.

LEMON: Yes. Listen, I know it's very tough to listen to this, but I want you to listen to what the lawyer of the accused to say about one of the young men that accused the bishop and their relationship and what happened. Let's play that and then we'll talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERNSTEIN: Anthony was moved in and lived in that house for approximately at the end of 11th grade when he was 17 years old. And there, the pastor started to do what adult pedophiles do with younger, younger people -- which is starting to spend time with them, casually watch TV with them and lay his legs on him, and then ask him to massage him and then start explaining to him how special he was to him and it was special for the bishop to be able to spend time with them. They did devotional readings together. He was over there on a regular basis at this house.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What do you think when you hear that? What do you think when you hear that, John?

CAMPBELL: I -- I still have a feeling that those -- those are not intentions of bishop. Bishop is known to be a mentor to young men and I feel that him having interaction with this young man or watching TV with him, it's nothing. I don't feel that it was anything with a negative intention behind that.

LEMON: Let me tell you what got my attention about this and I have never admitted this on television. I'm a victim of a pedophile when I was a kid -- someone who was much older than me. And those are the things that they do, the language. This doesn't make you gay if you do this.

So when someone starts to say that, you start to perk up and go -- ooh. Four people have said the same exact story and using the same buzz words. How do people come up with those stories? Did that ever cross any of your minds, Gabrielle, when you heard that four people who have come up with the same exact story who -- two of them know each other, the third one doesn't really know the other one, and the fourth one doesn't know any of them?

RICHARDS: When I look at different pedophiles, as said, I don't see bishop as one. If you look at the various things that he's done for the community and for young people in general, none of it boils down to him looking like a pedophile. LEMON: But it doesn't mean that -- and I'm not saying that the bishop is a pedophile. I'm not saying that the bishop is guilty. But no one is perfect. And so far, you know, I've heard members of the congregation, some people say that, but many people have not even put into their mind the possibility that this man is not perfect and maybe in some way, even if it wasn't -- the behavior didn't go as far as what the men were saying, that something there was inappropriate.

Kevin, and as I was saying, Kevin, you're older than these guys. I've never admitted that on television and I never told my mom until I was 30 years old, especially African-American men don't want to talk about those things and don't want to admit them even if there's money involved that you may make money off of it.

BOND: You are telling the truth, Don. The truth of the matter is most people don't lie when it comes to this type of thing. That's why it is very important that the bishop speak out and the pause and delay it has taken for him to speak out has really caused more -- make it even more troubling.

LEMON: Yes. I think that you, guys, are all brave.

Kevin, thank you for joining us from London. Thank you guys so much. I think you are very brave and, of course, you should stand behind your bishop, but you should also have an open mind about this.

We hope that these allegations are not true. And as I said, I've been saying all week, there are no winners in this situation. So best of luck to you tomorrow, and come back tomorrow and talk to us about what you heard there in the congregation. OK?

RICHARDS: OK.

CAMPBELL: All right.

LEMON: Thank you very much.

Black church goers often look to their leaders as role models, many times putting them on a pedestal. But does that leave them vulnerable to exploitation? Marc Lamont Hill, Shayne Lee and Ted Haggard, talked with me about that -- next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We've been discussing the sex scandal that has now engulfed Bishop Eddie Long of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Lithonia, Georgia, outside of Atlanta. I want to bring back our panel now.

Columbia University professor Marc Lamont Hill, TV host of "Our World with Black Enterprise" and then Tulane University Professor Shayne Lee. Also Ted Haggard, now the pastor of the St. James Church in Colorado Springs.

Thank you, guys, for talking about this. It was tough to play that for the members of the church. They were so young, but you know, this is reality here. So listen, the woman who is representing the plaintiffs here, the young men, B.J. Bernstein, a very prominent attorney. And B.J. Bernstein doesn't mess around. I mean she did Genarlow Wilson, who is involved, a young man -- Marc Lamont Hill, you may know him, represented him and got him off. It was a very big case. She talked about case and just why she thought that she would take it on and she said bring it into federal officials. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

B.J. BERNSTEIN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYER: And I can tell you this is -- gives me the creeps beyond anything that I have ever heard because for someone to use their power and be their pastor and use biblical verses when he is out in front and listed by the Southern Poverty Law Center as one of the most homophobic preachers in America, and so he makes these virulent, anti-homosexual remarks and at the same time he's leading apparently some sort of double life.

And these young men are confused. They're confused about their sexuality because at the same time this is happening, they're actually wanting to meet girls. One of these young men is a father of a child because they aren't gay. They just wanted to be loved and cared for by one of the most powerful charismatic men that the churches have ever known.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I was looking at your gentlemen's faces as that was going on.

Ted, this looks like it pains you?

HAGGARD: Well, the human condition is painful because anybody with a set of ideals especially someone - somebody obligated to teach the scriptures have that set of ideals and therein they've got their humanity.

What stress me earlier was when you interviewed the church members, how they said, he did so many good things he couldn't have done this. That is not true. It's not reflective of the human condition. Every pastor is a sinner while at the same time is a saint.

LEMON: Marc?

HAGGARD: And it's a percentage thing. He's a human communicating divine things. And so that struggle is universal and everybody has to accept that.

LEMON: Go ahead, Marc.

HAGGARD: One way or another.

HILL: I need to interject here because I think that there's a homophobic undertone that has governed this entire conversation, not just with Ted but in the media in general. You know, as Ted points out, the inhumanity of Eddie Long. There is something about him that's fundamentally problematic. It has nothing to do with homosexuality or heterosexuality, it has to do with the exploitation his members.

You know, B.J. Bernstein, who have extraordinary respect for him. She actually helped her free Genarlow Wilson. And whether or not this boy is gay or not is not even the point. There's nothing exculpatory about being straight. But the point here is that the preacher has exploited his flock. That's problem. As long as we continue to prosecute this in a way that sort of reinforces homophobia both in the church and in our communities, we're going to continue to have problems like this. That's why people like Eddie Long can go out there and be virulently homophobic and at the very same time prey upon the bodies of his flock.

LEMON: So, listen, B.J. Bernstein speaks to that, number three, guys, -- play that, and then we'll talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERNSTEIN: He would use biblical stories to talk about how important it was to follow your leader and your master and let him know that the acts that he was engaged in were not necessarily meaning that he was a homosexual or that either of them was but rather, the pastor, Bishop Long was releasing his passion and his love for Anthony.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Shayne, what do you think of that and what Marc said, there's an underlying homophobia, not only with this case, the way that this case is presented but also with the media and the way it's being interpreted in the public?

LEE: You can go back to any James Baldwin novel that deals with the church to see the black church is a hot bed of sensuality and at times powerful people exploit people under them to yield to those temptations, but the difference here is if Bishop Long were accused by women, I think it would be -- even if he was guilty, there would be a chance that he could survive. The fact that the black church has such a strong stance -- or I should say black churches have strong stances against homosexuality that presents this in a whole different light as far as damaging his career. I think if -- if these allegations even hold partially true to show someone who has same-sex erotic urges, his ministry is done.

LEMON: So, Ted, we're talking about the black church here. Is the black church, do you think, more homophobic in a sense than the white church?

HAGGARD: I think that the main line churches aren't much less, but my experience was that evangelicalism was, their response to me was incredibly, incredibly harsh because of the homosexual element. And it's much easier, culturally, if you're sin tendency is heterosexual than if it's same-sex attraction. But I think the overall point is the church is not the gathering together of the righteous. It is the gathering together of the great fully redeemed. And we've got to get over the fact that our leaders, Sunday school teachers or anybody else, nobody is perfect. Everybody's in process, and I don't say that to justify or explain anything away. Just as a lesson and reality that when we exult people and when we start thinking they're perfect, we're just in for a disappointment. And if it isn't this particular sin, it is another one, all have sinned. Everyone needs redemption.

LEMON: That's going to have to be the last word.

Thank you, guy, so much. Ted Haggard. Shayne Lee, Marc Lamont Hill. A very interesting conversation. A very smart conversation and no yelling and screaming, just how I like it. Thank you so much, guys.

HILL: Thanks, Don.

HAGGARD: Thank you.

LEMON: Have a great evening.

LEE: Pleasure.

LEMON: We'll check our top stories after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Time now for top stories. The Pentagon is making sure no one can read the first printing of an army reserve officer's tell all. It's bought and destroyed nearly 10,000 copies of Lieutenant Colonel Anthony Shaffer's memoir. It's called "Operation Dark Heart." It's about his service in Afghanistan. It says the memoir contained information damaging to national security. Shaffer disputes that. The book has been re-released with Pentagon-approved changes.

A critical deadline on the Israeli-Palestinian peace talks is looming. Palestinian authority President Mahmoud Abbas told the U.N. General Assembly today that Israel must extend its freeze on settlement construction in the West Bank to keep the negotiations alive. That freeze expires on Sunday.

It came with no warning, and by the time it was gone at least five people were dead. A fierce storm roared through Haiti's earthquake-ravaged capital of Port-Au-Prince yesterday. Heavy winds and rains downed trees, power lines, and tents providing shelter to quake survivors. Crews are searching for people who may still be trapped or injured.

Ahead here tonight, actress Rikki Lake introduces us to one of the top ten CNN Heroes of 2010.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: You know, this week CNN announced our top-ten "CNN Heroes" of 2010, one of whom will become the "CNN Hero" of the year.

Actress Rikki Lake introduces us to one of those nominees. Her name is Susan Burton, who overcame a troubled past to help more than 400 female ex-cons get back on their feet.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RIKKI LAKE: Hi, I'm Rikki Lake. For the last two years I have had the honor of helping to recognize great works of everyday people changing the world at "CNN Heroes, an All Star Tribute."

As a supporter of 2008 top-ten "CNN Heroes" Marie Da Silva and the Jacaranda Foundation, I'm committed to building schools, providing education, and preventing AIDS in Malawi. And I'm thrilled to help CNN introduce one of this year's top-ten honorees. Now more than ever the world needs heroes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN BURTON, CNN HERO: We all leave prison saying I'm going to get my life on track. And you end up getting off a bus, downtown Los Angeles, Skid Row. Many times, you don't even make it out of the Skid Row area because you're caught up into that cycle again.

My name is Susan Burton. After my son died, I used drugs. I went to prison six times. Finally, I found rehab. And I thought I can help women come home from prison.

I pick them up, bring them back to the house.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She offered you a warm bed, food. Like a real family. She made me want to change my life.

BURTON: You finally whispered sure.

You came a long way.

This is giving to life. That's what it's all about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: In tonight's "What Matters," a sports superstar learns how to handle fame and his own troubled past, and decides to use his own stardom to promote the cause of mental health.

CNN's Thelma Gutierrez sits down with NBA's Ron Artest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From the Queens Bridge Housing Project in New York, he made it to the NBA.

RON ARTEST, NBA PLAYER, LOS ANGELES LAKER: Always wanted to win a game. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Artest, that's a three.

GUTIERREZ (on camera): How many times do you think you've seen that moment?

ARTEST: At least a hundred times.

GUTIERREZ (voice-over): We sat down with Los Angeles Laker and aspiring rapper Ron Artest at his Hollywood recording studio, and watched his first NBA world championship on YouTube.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's a three!

GUTIERREZ (on camera): All of a sudden we see this exuberant Ron Artest. He is just like bouncing across the court.

ARTEST: Yes, yes.

GUTIERREZ: A reporter catches you. What did you tell that reporter?

ARTEST: I told her, you know, I was feeling great and then I wanted to make sure to my success that I humble myself before I party like a rockstar.

GUTIERREZ (voice-over): And he went through it.

ARTEST: I want to thank my doctor, my psychiatrist. She really helped me relax a lot.

GUTIERREZ (on camera): I was watching the game, and I thought, I wonder what he means by that.

ARTEST: My psychologist, you know, she was the first person that came to my mind.

GUTIERREZ: I thought I heard you say, I want to thank my psychiatrist.

ARTEST: Yes, psychiatrist. I did say psychiatrist because I didn't know the difference between a psychologist or a psychiatrist.

GUTIERREZ: Therapy for you has been part of your life for a long time.

ARTEST: A great psychologist. He made me go deep, deep into my childhood, deep into my life and deep, deep into my vices. And then I had to tell my wife everything. And, you know, that totally changed my life.

Thank you so much.

GUTIERREZ (voice-over): That unscripted moment in front of the largest global audience ever for an NBA finals game would transform this Lakers champion into a champion for mental health. REP. GRACE NAPOLITANO (D), CALIFORNIA: One of the greatest basketball players in the game and, and what makes him even greater is the fact that he is willing to stand up and say, mental health is important to all of us. World champion Ron Artest.

GUTIERREZ: Artest recently teamed up with California Congresswoman Grace Napolitano to promote the Mental Health in Schools Act, which funds counseling programs for students.

ARTEST: As a kid, I had a temper. As an adult, I was a bad father. You know, and I had to speak to somebody about that.

GUTIERREZ (on camera): You've gone through childhood counseling, marriage counseling.

ARTEST: Yes.

GUTIERREZ: Parenting classes.

ARTEST: Yes.

GUTIERREZ (voice-over): Artest, a married father of four, had his first son when he was just 16. Four years later, he was drafted into the NBA by the Chicago Bulls. He admits it's been a bumpy ride.

(on camera): There was a moment that was highly public.

ARTEST: Yes.

GUTIERREZ (voice-over): November, 2004. The Pacers were playing The Pistons in Detroit, a huge fight broke out on the court that Artest took into the stands. He was suspended for 73 games, the equivalent of about $6 million.

(on camera): Did that compel you to go and get help? Or anger management?

ARTEST: It did. Actually the courts said, I had to go to anger management class.

GUTIERREZ (voice-over): Artest was one of ten children who grew up in the projects in New York.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seeing my homey dead on the front page, it kind of messed me up.

ARTEST: Telling my family members, I was afraid and I backed off.

GUTIERREZ: When Ron was 13, his parents separated. Artest says that was the hurt of his life and the reason he sought counseling at school. It's the same reason 13-year-old Sean Johnson is in counseling at his school.

(on camera): How does counseling help with that?

SEAN JOHNSON, STUDENT: I'm taking my anger out and discussing it with someone.

GUTIERREZ: You can relate to that, Ron?

ARTEST: Yeah, I can relate to it. At least having somebody to talk to is very important.

GUTIERREZ (voice-over): And no one knows better than Ron. He credits counseling for his success and happiness.

Thelma Gutierrez, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Artest says he will donate his championship ring to raise money for mental health counseling services for youth who can't afford it. He says celebrities have offered to buy his ring, but he has declined to hold a random drawing so all his fans can have a fair chance to win.

We're back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: It's been a very interesting evening here on CNN. We thank you so much for watching. And thank you for all of your tweets and support. I appreciate it. I'm Don Lemon at the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta. I'll see you back here tomorrow night at 6:00, 7:00 and 10:00 p.m. Eastern. Again, thanks for watching and have a good night.