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Suspicious Items on UPS Flights

Aired October 29, 2010 - 11:58   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: OK. We are continuing to follow a breaking story, a developing story right now, here in the United States and in the U.K. as well.

Take a look at the picture here. You've got Philadelphia International Airport on the left, you've Newark International Airport on the right. You have a couple of cargo planes now that have been moved to a more secure area away from the main terminals and they are being looked at pretty closely right now.

Why is this happening? Well, it has to do with a package, a package aboard a flight that landed at East Midlands Airport in the U.K.

Nic Robertson is covering that angle of the story for us. And, Nic, again, share with us the information -- did we just lose Nic? OK, we just lost Nic.

But what Nic is indicating is that there was a flight that landed at East Midlands Airport in the United Kingdom. A search of the cargo plane revealed an item, a toner cartridge, that appeared to have been manipulated.

That toner cartridge was certainly tested. We don't know the results of the testing, but as a result of that package being found on a plane that was bound for Chicago, an alert went out and now we have the situation that we do at Philadelphia International Airport and at Newark International Airport, where we have cargo planes getting extra scrutiny right now. And at this point, that's all the information that we have.

The package has been examined. That particular toner cartridge has been reexamined. And we're not getting any indication as to the results.

I see Chad Myers off to my right here.

Are you miked up yet, Chad?

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yes, sir.

HARRIS: And I see you're ripping open a package. Where's our steady cam? Let's get a shot here of the steady cam, because we're talking about -- and we have for most of the morning -- about a toner cartridge.

MYERS: Sure. And here's one that we have in the weather office that makes thousands and thousands of copies of things.

You can imagine how much damage that could do filled with C4. OK?

This is not the only cartridge -- my mom and dad I know are confused. Cartridge, what are you talking about.

HARRIS: Right.

MYERS: Those are those little things that you put in a typewriter, and they were this big. How much damage can this little thing do?

There are cartridges that are significantly bigger for significantly bigger machines like big Xerox machines, big copier machines. There's also other cartridges that come in color if you're going to put them into a copier machine that's going to actually print photographs.

So if you were going to take this apart -- and you can to refill it -- so that's what I'm worried about, whether somebody just took it apart to fill it back up and send it back out. But you could put a lot of stuff in there. That's pretty big.

You know, that's a pretty big piece of something that could go on a plane. I don't know why they put it on a cargo plane, though.

HARRIS: Yes.

MYERS: You're going to put it on a passenger plane. What are you doing to do with a cargo plane, bring down cargo and two pilots? But there you go. That's what that is.

HARRIS: So there you go. This is what it looks like. And you can see the concern. If you find this in the search of the cargo, and you look at it, as you would, and then you detect that it has been manipulated in a way that doesn't make any sense, you investigate.

MYERS: Or things attached. I heard that, other things attached to it, which could be the -- you know, sometimes bombs are two parts, right? And so if it would leak, we would put two parts together.

I don't know. But I just wanted to give an idea of how big it is.

HARRIS: No, no. I appreciate it. I appreciate it.

MYERS: I don't think people know how big these things can be.

HARRIS: Yes. And again, according to the information we're getting -- and a bit of this is -- look, I have to be honest with you, a little bit of this is a little conflicting right now.

And there are reports out there that there were tests done that might have shown an indication of a residue of powder. And then we're getting some information that that's not the case at all.

So, you know, out of an abundance of caution, what we have is the activity we have here with cargo planes getting a lot of extra attention now at Philadelphia International Airport, where Sarah Hoye is located right now. She is one of our all-platform journalists.

And Sarah, what can you add to this story at this point?

SARAH HOYE, CNN ALL-PLATFORM JOURNALIST: Well, Tony, what I can actually do is kind of set the scene for you here at Philadelphia.

HARRIS: Perfect. Perfect.

HOYE: So, like you said, I'm at the airport, and I'm at a part near the tarmac where this UPS plane is isolated. It's kind of just hanging out, if you will.

There's also a Delta plane near it in the same location. Don't know if that has any connection to this or not, but that is what I'm say seeing.

And as quickly as the cavalry came in earlier when we spoke, those management vehicles coming in, and some other police. They have also now dissipated.

I don't know where they went, but there are still fire trucks on site, Philadelphia police on site. People aren't moving and that plane isn't moving -- Tony.

HARRIS: OK. Sarah, we had another incident, as I rack my brain here to remember the specifics, not that long ago, maybe a week or so ago. I believe it was also at Philadelphia International Airport, and we saw a plane move to a secure area, and we saw every bag being pulled of that plane and every bag checked. We saw bomb-sniffing dogs working over all of that luggage on that aircraft.

Has there been a similar scene with this aircraft that we're looking at now? Has, for example, all of the cargo been pulled off of that cargo plane?

HOYE: Not that I'm aware of. And from where I am, I can't see that.

Now, you're absolutely right. That was the beginning of October. There was an issue with a plane, a US Air flight, I think.

HARRIS: That's right. That's right.

HOYE: You know, a baggage handler issue.

HARRIS: That's right. That's right.

HOYE: And you're exactly correct. They took every piece of luggage off, similar to what we saw in Utah the other day -- yesterday, in fact -- where they line it all up on quadrant and go through it.

I have not seen it. I do not see the dogs. I do not see that team around the plane. The plane is kind of sitting there.

HARRIS: Yes.

OK. We're watching it right now, as you are, and I need a bigger monitor. I don't see a lot of activity now. There may be some emergency vehicles nearby on standby.

HOYE: Correct.

HARRIS: But I don't see activity around that plane, per se. Am I looking at the right picture, and is that what you're seeing?

HOYE: I can't --

HARRIS: The lack of activity around the plane?

HOYE: I can't see the picture you're seeing, but that's it, where you just see that UPS plane --

HARRIS: Just sitting there.

HOYE: -- sitting there by itself.

HARRIS: OK.

HOYE: There are some, you know, units on standby, like you said, in the periphery. Not sure if your shot can see that. There's a fire truck, there's police vehicles, you know, field operations, things like that. It's kind of everyone is watching the plane.

HARRIS: OK. Sarah, appreciate it.

Sarah Hoye, our all-platform journalist who happens to be at Philadelphia International Airport.

Our homeland security correspondent, Jeanne Meserve, with us now.

And Jeanne, I understand you have new information.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we do have some new information. Some of this comes to us from Fran Townsend, who is CNN's national security contributor.

She tells us that there has been ongoing concern in the U.S. intelligence about cargo coming to the U.S. from the Gulf region, something the intelligence community has been looking at very carefully. And that within the last 24 hours, the U.S. got a tip from the ally. The ally is not named, but this ally gave a tip about packages coming from Yemen destined for synagogues in Chicago. It was very specific intelligence information.

Now, in the wake of that, we know about this plane that put down in the U.K. On board they found a toner cartridge which was suspicious.

I have spoken to a law enforcement source who describes it this way -- this law enforcement source says a picture is being distributed of this toner cartridge which has wires attached to it and something he describes as a circuit card. It also has white powder on this. He also quotes from a memo that he says is a law enforcement memo that, "This item is an IED."

So, two of these apparently found, some similarities between the two. We don't know the full details on both of them.

I think this description of the wires and circuit board relates to the toner cartridge they found in London, something similar found on this flight in Dubai. But once again, this is why they're looking at these cargo flights in the U.S. They're trying to find out if there are any other packages that particularly originated in Yemen to see if there are any more of these toner cartridges that have been manipulated and tampered with -- Tony.

HARRIS: OK.

And before we go to Paul Cruickshank, our terror analyst who is standing by in New York, let's set him up. And Jeanne, to do that, share with us again the information you received from our national security analyst, Fran Townsend.

HARRIS: Fran headlining this here. Fran tells us that there's been ongoing concern about cargo coming to the U.S. from Yemen, and that within the last 24 hours, there was a tip from an ally warning about packages coming from Yemen going to synagogues in Chicago. And this very specific information led to this scramble that's currently under way to find these packages.

HARRIS: Jeanne Meserve, our national security correspondent from Washington.

Good reporting there, Jeanne, as always. Thank you.

Paul Cruickshank is with us. He is a CNN terror analyst.

And Paul, you just heard the information from Fran Townsend. Your thoughts?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERROR ANALYST: Well, that's very interesting. That information suggests there was some sort of intelligence tip-off here by an ally, that there was some sort of explosive material en route to the United States for a terrorist attack perhaps in a Chicago synagogue.

That's very, very interesting to hear that. It suggests this may be an operation by al Qaeda's affiliate in Yemen, an organization that only last Christmas Day, tried to launch an attack on aircraft going into the United States, the underwear bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab.

So, that's very interesting information, indeed. But it's still very early in this investigation. I think we're going to learn a lot more as we move forward -- Tony.

HARRIS: OK.

And Fran Townsend is with us now on the beeper line.

And Paul, stay where you are and join this conversation with Fran.

Fran, again, share with us the information you're learning from your sources.

FRAN TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: Well, to Paul's point, U.S. and international intelligence officials do believe this is al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, AQAP, operation. And there has been a general concern in the U.S. intelligence community. You know, we call it chatter.

There had been a rising concern about the use of packages and cargo to launch an attack. And so the U.S. intelligence community has been focused on that.

You add to that in the last 24 hours a tip from a very credible U.S. ally who provide some -- I'm told some very specific information about packages coming out of Yemen. And so, thus begins overnight the effort to try to identify what packages, where are they?

A plane was grounded in Dubai, and the other plane in the U.K., and there were initial inspections. They didn't know if they had anything.

A subsequent investigation reveals that there are things in those packages and those, as we've reported, toner cartridges of concern. They don't know whether or not they contain explosives yet or not, but that's of course what they're trying to figure out.

So, in the meantime, you then say to yourself, well, where did these packages come from? If they were packages from Yemen, you don't know what you don't know, Tony. And so they begin to say, are there other planes carrying packages from Yemen that ought to get better scrutiny and screening? And that's why you see two planes so far down in Philly, one in Newark, for additional screening.

That's not based on specific intelligence of particular packages. But, you know, you can understand now they have real concern, heightened concern about any packages coming out of Yemen.

HARRIS: I've got to tell you, and is that the real linkage here, cargo aircraft coming out of Yemen? And is it more than UPS? I don't know whether FedEx travels in and out of Yemen as well, but --

TOWNSEND: Oh, Tony, they're looking at everything. They're looking at FedEx and DHL, and, you know, UPS and all that.

They'll look at every single carrier who potentially either took packages out of Yemen or picked them up en route in a second country on their way here from Yemen. They were focused -- the two packages that they were particularly focused on, on the planes in the U.K. and Dubai, were headed for Chicago, synagogues in Chicago. And so they're very, very focused on all packages, I think, coming out of Yemen right now.

HARRIS: Fran, one more for you and I'm going to bring in Paul again. And Nic Robertson is with us as well.

Fran, so the question is, why would it take -- why don't we know whether or not the test results came back positive for an explosive or explosives connected to the toner cartridge in question here? That doesn't take a lot of time, it seems to me.

What do you think is the reason for the delay, if you think there is a delay here?

TOWNSEND: Well, first of all, field tests are notoriously inaccurate. So officials are loathed to rely on them having been burned many times.

The second thing is, you don't know whether these packages were the packages that were meant to detonate, or were with these test packages? What I'm saying by that is, packages that had all the component pieces that you would need to construct an explosive device minus the explosive itself.

And so it's possible that you could have a mock bomb that didn't yet have the explosives in it because they were doing a dry run. All of those things are possible, and that's what they're investigating right now.

HARRIS: Paul, any thoughts on this before I go to my question -- and I'll just put it out there for you. We're talking about Yemen again. What do we need to know, what do we need to understand here in this country about Yemen right now?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, any time you have explosives at play, there's a wider network that they would sort of have to be there to make the explosives, to get it on an aircraft, to get it through security on an aircraft. And in Yemen, al Qaeda really does have a presence now. It's a safe haven for them.

They've tried to launch operations against the United States before from there. And they've really strengthened their operations there outside of the capital city. They really control certain areas where they're able to train operatives.

There's a lot of concern also about westerners going and getting trained there, maybe coming back to launch attacks, people coming from the United States, people coming from Europe to Yemen. So, a real safe haven now for al Qaeda, and a lot of concern in Washington, D.C., about this safe haven -- Tony.

HARRIS: Fran, would this indicate -- and Paul, thank you. We know you have to run.

Fran, if you would, walk me through how this could potentially play out. You get the device to Chicago. You get it, in this case, if the information is correct, just playing it out based on the information that we have, you get it to a mosque, synagogue, whatever the end point is. And someone on that end is then responsible for detonating the device?

TOWNSEND: Well, it's interesting. What we really need to appreciate are, what are the component pieces to this?

You don't know whether it's -- was there an altimeter, something that measures height in the air? Right? Maybe it was triggered to an altimeter, so it was meant to blow up in the air.

Maybe there is a triggering device attached to how you open the package itself so it would explode on opening. We don't really know now, Tony. We'd only be speculating. But that's exactly what they're trying to figure out, whether the intended victims -- did you want to blow up airplanes mid air, did you want to blow up the people potentially at the synagogue in Chicago?

Who was the intended victim here? And we don't know that yet, and we won't be able to really make a judgment about that until we understand better what the component pieces inside those toners were.

HARRIS: Boy, synagogues in Chicago. That is scary to even think about.

Fran, if you would, stand by.

Let's get to Nic Robertson.

And Nic, are you learning any additional information that helps flesh out this story a bit?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Not from the police here who are in charge of East Midlands Airport.

I guess the one thing that I'm thinking about here, Tony, amid all the packages that were being sorted at this handling office at East Midlands Airport, what attracted security personnel to this particular device? What raised their alarms?

Had they had a tip-off? Was it wires hanging out of it? Was it being x-rayed? Again, those details are going to tell us a lot when we know more about those as well -- Tony.

HARRIS: And let's get back to Fran, because, Fran, you have some information from your sources to indicate that there was an intelligence chain of information that led investigators to this particular type of device, even the idea that this device could come in the form and shape of toner cartridge, correct?

TOWNSEND: In fact, while there was a general concern about this type of device, there was some very specific information that pointed officials in the last 24 hours to the package on the plane in the U.K. They were looking for that package, and they were looking for the package on the plane in Dubai.

Very specific intelligence. You rarely get that. Officials were fortunate to have such powerful allies that that was passed, they were with able to work, frankly, with the private sector to identify where those packages would be. And so, you know, this is how you hope your intelligence community internationally can work effectively. And so in that regard, it's a good example.

HARRIS: And Fran, al Qaeda, if al Qaeda is behind this -- and all of these answers will -- all these questions will be answered in time -- still seemingly fixated on the idea of launching some kind of an attack using an aircraft.

TOWNSEND: Yes. I mean, you know, look, they've seen -- we made it much more difficult, the United States and internationally, by the way we screen passengers and what they bring on planes. And so they've adapted, right?

So they've moved to cargo. Cargo has long been a concern.

I remember being concerned about it when I was in the White House and trying to improve screening standards. But obviously they found a vulnerability that they're trying to exploit. But they continue to be fixated not just on aviation, but transportation generally.

HARRIS: Yes.

Nic, did I hear you wanting to jump in?

ROBERTSON: Well, one other thing. And again, these are details, but these are things for us just to think about here, Tony, while we try and analyze. And this will be the basis of questions that we'll be asking of our sources.

But, again, when you look at Yemen, and if the details we have laid out in front of us at the moment are being approximately correct, that this device came from Yemen, this would seem to indicate, if you take into account the underpants bomber last Christmas, the new sophisticated technique of packing explosives into underpants, using a detonator that was a syringe mixture of liquid to try and detonate them, that managed to get through airport security, that was developed and designed in Yemen. And what we're seeing here again is perhaps a new tactic being developed and designed in Yemen.

This gives us an idea here why we focus a lot on Afghanistan, Pakistan, for al Qaeda, that they appear to have on the evidence that we see in front of us today an ability to refine and develop explosive techniques targeting planes, specifically targeting aircraft flying into the United States. Something to think about -- Tony.

HARRIS: Yes.

And Fran, I'll toss the question to you. How concerned were you when you were in the White House with Yemen? And how did you assess the threat Yemen posed?

TOWNSEND: Yemen was a huge threat, Tony. It was a top-tier concern and priority. I traveled there many times. I met with President Saleh to discuss our concerns.

The problem in our bilateral counterterrorism relationship has always been a lack of consistency. You hear officials say the same thing when it comes to Pakistan, but there is no place a better example than Yemen.

There is a difficult and unstable political situation. There were riots in the south. He's got the Al Qusi (ph) riots in the north. They're constantly in battle. He needs tribal support, and often it's the tribes that support al Qaeda and hides them and gives them safe haven. And so Saleh was a very difficult and unpredictable partner. He would say the right things, but not always be willing to do the right things because of his own domestic political situation.

HARRIS: Hey, Fran, if you're in the White House right now -- and heck, you were there -- what information is the president getting on this, the national security team getting on this? Put us in the room if you would.

TOWNSEND: Sure.

First of all, both the president himself and probably John Brennan, my successor, the homeland security adviser, has been on the phone with officials both in Yemen, in the U.K., in Dubai. He's probably talking to the heads of the intelligence service that provided this information.

And then what he's doing is pulling all that together, moment by moment, frankly, and keeping the president updated, letting the president know who's being cooperative, where does he need the helper of other cabinet members. For example, you might call in the secretary of state to be helpful overseas. You might call in the secretary of defense if he happens to have good relationships in the countries of greatest concern. And you're coordinating all of that at the same time you're keeping the president alerted to what's going on.

HARRIS: What's one of the takeaways -- if you're sitting in an airport right now, Fran, and you're -- say you're at Philadelphia International, you're at Newark International, and you've seen the activity, and you are watching us right now, and you're hearing this analysis and you're hearing, for example, that this is an episode that has roots back in Yemen, an episode that has roots back into the U.K., what are you thinking? What would be the proper mindset? Thankfully, the security forces and the apparatus seem to have worked well, the communications seemed to have worked well in this episode?

TOWNSEND: Yes. I think that's right.

I mean, people -- these are always sort of unsettling, right? You're sitting in an airport, you're getting ready to go on a plane. But the answer is, you ought to take real confidence in the fact that people are screening, the fact that we're going through a period of enhanced screening now, that the system did work the way you want it to work. But, you know, last but not least, Tony, people -- this is a painful reminder that our enemies remain absolutely determined to try and launch a successful attack, but that our system is stronger and we can withstand these threats and we can thwart them because we have built a better, stronger -- both domestically and internationally, a better and stronger system.

HARRIS: And as we look at this plane in a secure area -- is that Philadelphia or Newark? OK. That's Philadelphia International Airport. If you look at this aircraft, talk to us about the efforts and the ground we're covering, and what kind of success, in your opinion, we're having with our allies at strengthening the network here, the intelligence handling and sharing, so that we're better able to handle situations like this.

TOWNSEND: Well, it really is a matter -- there's a couple of things, Tony.

All countries, including our own, have enhanced our intelligence capability. You know, we have put many -- tens of millions of dollars back into the intelligence community, and that's happened around the world.

Second, we've created relationships of trust. We pass specific intelligence to our allies that they can act on, and the quid pro quo there is, we expect them to pass it back. And that's what we've seen today, and that's very important. That requires a level of trust and confidence in one another's ability to act on that intelligence, and that's also important.

And so, look, I think the combination of those, the strengthening over years, and then the sharing, is what we need to do because this is not just an American problem. We've seen, you know, explosions and attacks all around the world, in Madrid, in London, in Saudi Arabia. And so the community of nations is now acting as though it's a common threat, and that's what will defeat al Qaeda.

HARRIS: Yes. That's good information, Fran. If you would, just stand by. And at any moment you feel you've got something to add to this discussion, please, please, please, I encourage you to jump in.

Our Susan Candiotti is working this story for us as well.

Hey, Susan, you know, there was -- early on in the reporting of the situation of the two airports, we began to get reports of a UPS truck that had drawn the attention of law enforcement officials in Queens, New York. Anything come of that?

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's what we're still trying to find out. I've got some brand new information coming in that we're trying to get approval and confirmation on so that we can tell you about it. So there is a new development.

But what that information was that came in came from New York police departments, deputy police commissioner. And he told us on the record that they were looking into a suspicious explosive device inside a package aboard a UPS truck that at first they said was in Queens, near the Queensboro Bridge.

Then the officials retracted that and made an adjustment, said that it is in Brooklyn that they're looking into this, at something called MetroTech. Now, MetroTech is a big corporate office center. There are a number of businesses located there, many of them 30 stories high or more. And so we do know that the bomb squad was out there looking at things, and I think that I have a development to tell you about. And I think fairly shortly I may be able to do that. So I'll tell you what. If you could come back to me in just a couple of minutes, I think I can do that. OK?

HARRIS: OK. We'll do that. All right, Susan. Appreciate it. Thank you.

CANDIOTTI: All right.

HARRIS: Let's get to Jeanne Meserve now, our national security correspondent in Washington, D.C.

And Jeanne, I believe you've got some more information to add to this.

MESERVE: No particular updates for you, Tony, at this point in time.

HARRIS: OK.

MESERVE: We're still in the news gathering mode here, trying to get a clearer picture of exactly what it is we're dealing with.

As you know, we've had various iterations of information about exactly what this toner cartridge was that was found on that flight in the U.K.. We do have one source who's described a photograph they've seen of this item. They describe it as being a toner cartridge that had wires and a computer card attached to it, and white powder covering it. We're told that is being distributed to law enforcement.

HARRIS: OK.

MESERVE: And that's what we have -- Tony.

HARRIS: OK. Terrific. Any information that you get, just give us a shout. We'll get you back on the air.

Jeanne Meserve in Washington.

Fran Townsend is on the line with us.

And let's get back to Susan Candiotti. She's in New York with an update -- Susan.

CANDIOTTI: OK. Here's the update on what we were just talking about, about the situation going on in Brooklyn at that MetroTech center.

We now understand from a law enforcement official who tells us that they found nothing there, that they found nothing there. And this is the suspicious package that they with were looking at aboard the UPS truck.

HARRIS: OK. Nothing there. All right.

CANDIOTTI: All clear there. HARRIS: So the all-clear in one respect here, but we still have a situation going on that's being watched closely at Philadelphia International Airport and at Newark International Airport.

Let's bring back in Fran Townsend, who's -- boy, who is in touch with the intelligence community in helping us dissect what is going on here.

Hey, Fran, any surprise that the plane, all of the cargo on the plane, has not been removed from that plane and sniffer dogs and everything else going over the contents of the cargo on that plane?

TOWNSEND: Tony, can you hear me?

HARRIS: I sure can.

TOWNSEND: OK. No, we don't know the status of the planes here in the U.S.

HARRIS: Yes, we don't.

TOWNSEND: Literally, they were going to go through the entire cargo shipment focusing on any packages from Yemen to see if there were specific suspicious component pieces. But I think we need to expect that it's going to take some time for them to do that because they're not looking for a specific package like they are in the U.K. and Dubai.

HARRIS: Yes. And Fran, while we have you on the line, you have provided us with really the most compelling information connected to these events. So, if you would, share with everyone again the information that you received about this incident that's playing out here, but certainly has been -- there are strands of this story playing out in Yemen, and certainly in the U.K. And we're seeing here, visually, at Philadelphia International Airport, what the intelligence information was that has led to the events that we're watching unfold right now.

TOWNSEND: There are really two separate things that happened, Tony. There has been -- my understanding is there's been an ongoing concern in the United States intelligence community about the potential for the use of packages being shipped internationally that contain explosives, and that the intelligence community has been focused on that for some time now.

In the last 24 hours, the intelligence community here in the U.S. got a tip from an ally, very specific intelligence about two packages being shipped from Yemen to the United States. And there began a real urgent search to identify what planes those packages were on.

You know, to the credit of the foreign intelligence service, to the U.S. intelligence service, and frankly the cooperation between the public and private sector, they worked very diligently, they identified the location of the packages. Those are the planes in the U.K. and the plane in Dubai. And they're very focused on those packages there, looking at component pieces to see if there were actually explosives related to those components in those toner cartridges. We don't know the outcome of those investigations yet. Because they were concerned about the packages coming out of Yemen, they identified the three planes, two in Philadelphia, one in Newark, that had packages among their cargo that had originated in Yemen.

And so, they've branded those flights. They're focused on the packages coming out of Yemen, and they're looking to see if there are any suspicious packages there, although that's not related to specific intelligence.

HARRIS: You know what, Fran? We're coming up -- and I'm reaching a bit here. We're coming up on the year anniversary of the attempted bombing by Abdulmutallab with the explosives in his underwear, right? The underwear bomber. And we know he spent time in Yemen.

In some respects, as I listen to you lay out the information here, I'm wondering, does this feel like a natural extension of that attempt last year, and is it possible that some of the information that we're learning now that's helping us to connect some of the dots -- might have, in fact, come from Abdulmutallab because we do understand that for a while there, he was cooperating with authorities. I know it's a reach, but --

TOWNSEND: It's really hard to know for sure. Yemen and the threat emanating out of Yemen goes back for years. But as you point out, not only is there Abdulmutallab, the underwear bomber from last Christmas, but if course, there's also the Fort Hood shooter, who had contact and communications with Anwar al-Malaki, the Yemeni cleric who was in Yemen.

So, this seems to me, when you look at this, al Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula, AQAP, who's been behind all of this, they're resurgents, their strength and frankly, their tenacity to try and pursue an attack targeting the homeland is obviously of great concern. But it's very serious. Their continued efforts to launch something. And I know officials in the White House and officials in the intelligence community are very, very focused on this.

HARRIS: All right, Fran. Join me in welcoming our international viewers who are watching our coverage of these event as it unfolds. At a couple of airports in the United States, in the Northeast, we're talking about Philadelphia International Airport and also Newark International Airport, where cargo planes right are getting extra scrutiny because of events that take us back to the UK.

Jim Cavanaugh is with us, he is from the ATF. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. And Jim, as we set the scene here, we're talking about a suspicious package, what looks to be a toner cartridge that was manipulated. Real concerns about that toner cartridge. And that was discovered on a flight from Yemen, touched down for a while, put down at East Midlands Airport in the UK, and the flight was bound for Chicago.

What do you make of the reporting so far, and what are you learning that could help us understand what's going on here with this story?

JIM CAVANAUGH, ATF AGENT (via phone): You know, Fran is exactly right when she talks about the al Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula and al Qaeda and its affiliates worldwide who are really trying to breach American security any way they can to get some death and destruction here.

If you look back historically, in recent history, Abdulmutallab in Detroit, certainly Hasan in Fort Hood who contacted Al-Malaki in Yemen. The American. And, you know, the Faisal Shahzad in Times Square.

All of these attempts, the bomb attempts, at least, failed. So, what they do is they watch our security, they manipulate, they see how they can get parcels through. And they've gone back to what's more traditional bombers, like unibomb. You know, some of the cases we had in the '90s and '80s, the bombing of -- murder of Judge Vance in Alabama, where a series of bombs were mailed. You know, mail bombs and murder through mail bombs is not new. We've just focused in the most recent years on suicide bombers because that is al Qaeda's strength and of course, it's one you of the of their pillars of their organization, suicide.

But now, if this is them, and likely it is al Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula, they have changed their tactic to get something through. I think it's the most significant thing here, Tony, is that the intelligence community is saying it might have been targeted at synagogues.

So, on mail bombs, the alert of where they may be going is critical because mail bombs detonate when they're opened. And ship bombs like UPS or Fed Ex, it's going to detonate when it's opened. It's not a timer, and it's not going to be targeting the aircraft like, say, an altimeter switch that would go off because it's not a passenger aircraft.

In this case, the target is not the aircraft. That's a significant difference. In the other cases, the target is the aircraft. The shoe bomber, Richard Reid, Abdulmutallab in Detroit, it targets the aircraft. In this case, the target is domestically in the United States. The aircraft is just the method, the means to get the bomb there.

HARRIS: Yes. Jim, that's a good point. I think it was also a very good point that Fran made -- Fran, I know you're still on the line -- to suggest that -- did we lose Fran? OK, Fran made the point that we were with still learning and still unclear as to what the intended target might be. Was it the aircraft? Was it set to the altimeter to explode at a certain point over a city, over Chicago? But Jim, I think you make a very good point here.

Let's get back to our Nic Robertson. Nic, I know you have new information.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Tony, what we're understanding from law enforcement sources is that the way that these other packages are being searched for. They're being checked against the same address or company that sent the package that has been picked up in the UK.

So, that's what law enforcement personnel are using to track down where these other packages may be. There's believed to be a small number of packages, and that's to be stressed, a relatively small number of packages.

So, when searches are being made, and we know that two suspect packages in Newark were just cleared as having no explosives, it is the point of reference for why these particular packages are being checked. It's because they've come from the same company or location in Yemen that sent out the package that was discovered in the East Midlands Airport.

HARRIS: OK. Good information as always, Nic. Thank you.

And Jim Cavanaugh is still on the line with us. Jim, any other thoughts, reflections as we continue to take a look at the plane on the ground, the cargo plane on the ground, there at Philadelphia International Airport? You made some really good points a moment ago. But any other thoughts or reflections as you watch this story unfold here?

CAVANAUGH: I would say, Tony, you're right on point here. Because it's unlikely that the target is an aircraft. The cargo aircraft has a small crew, pilot and navigator, maybe a loader or two. So three or four people. Terrorists like the al Qaeda and its affiliates are not going to get much bang out of taking down a cargo plane. That's not going to be their target.

HARRIS: Right.

CAVANAUGH: It's going to be somewhere else, and, you know, the idea, if it holds true -- we don't know obviously - but if it holds true that the target was synagogues, it also could be timed with the peace talks going on in Israel, certainly.

So, they grab on to those interests, the terrorists do, to any rightful cause or issue and grab on to it and exploit it. So, you could see something happen like that. But a toner cartridge is a large enough item --

HARRIS: Absolutely.

CAVANAUGH: -- packed with explosives and they said white powder. That could be any number of things. It could be amonium nitrate or TATP or HMTD and concocted to mix up to get through, and they could really wreak havoc through the mail.

HARRIS: Jim, we're going to bring in a CNN international anchor, Hala Gorani, in just a moment here. But I've got to ask you, we're watching the plane there in a secure area of the airport at Philadelphia International Airport. And we haven't seen the cargo on that plane pulled off, and we haven't seen the sniffer dogs do what they do. I'm just wondering why that is. And we're focus you on this UPS plane, but I'm wondering, we're not seeing shots at other airports. But can we assume that security and law enforcement personnel are looking at DHL flights or also FedEx flights that might have gone through, passed through, Yemen?

CAVANAUGH: Yes. That would be normal case to start making alerts, to notify people. One thing about package and mailed bombs is that with enough intelligence, they can be intercepted.

And viewers should pay attention, too, because anybody who would be at risk -

HARRIS: Absolutely.

CAVANAUGH: -- being a target of a terrorist, and there are people who operate intelligence functions or groups that might be anti-terrorist, in the public eye. They're constantly trying to fight terrorism in the public eye. Jewish groups, certainly government officials. Nobody should be opening anything that you didn't order, that they don't know exactly where it's come from.

And the return address is not an indicator of safety. If you remember, when Judge Vance was killed in Birmingham, in the package bomb years ago, the return address was a federal judge in Atlanta. So, the return address isn't the indicator. You have to pick up the phone and call who shipped it. If you don't know what it is, you shouldn't be opening it.

HARRIS: OK, Jim. Appreciate it. If you would, stand by for just a second. As I mentioned just a second ago, let's bring in our Hala Gorani from CNN International. And I believe Fran is back on the line with you.

HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Absolutely. Just to bring our viewers up to date, though, Tony, if they're just joining us, it's really a worldwide security alert at this stage with several cargo planes being checked in the United States. Two in Philadelphia, one in Newark, and also in London. A plane coming from Yemen that was transiting through London on its way to Chicago, was being checked as well, a few hours ago.

We understand from sources that a suspicious package, a container cartridge, was checked. Some reports indicating no traces of explosives were found. But, as we mentioned, this is a global security scare. Fran Townsend joins us once again with new information. Fran, what can you tell us?

TOWNSEND: In fact, officials are working with UPS, FedEx, DHL, all the international shippers on this worldwide security alert. The other thing is, we had talked earlier about the fact that this had been packages being shipped were with of concern to the U.S. intelligence community. We're now learning that there are a number of packages they had tracked previously that they believe now have been trial runs in such a plot.

GORANI: So the idea behind that being potentially make a package look as though or feel as though it's a bomb or something that might explode, but not actually contain the explosive device in order to perform a trial run.

TOWNSEND: That's exactly right. And so what officials are trying to figure out now is the packages that are on the plane in the UK and in Dubai, are these other trial runs, or did these contain explosives? And, obviously, they ought to know that in pretty short order. I think we're not hearing what they think yet because field tests are often inaccurate, and they want to make sure that when they say something that they know they've got the right facts.

GORANI: All right, Fran, thanks very much. Tony?

HARRIS: OK, I think we've got Nic Robertson back with us. Nic, you're following the story from the UK. I know you have new information for us.

ROBERTSON: Yes. Tony, we with understand from East Midlands Airport that they've lifted the cordon that they've had in operation there. The security cordon after that suspicious package was found at 3:28 this morning. They've lifted the security cordon in the last few minutes, which they say means that as far as East Midlands Airport is concerned right now, their investigation is over.

So, whatever they've discovered they've taken it, secured it, and the airport is back to operating as normal. That security cordon has been taken down at the British East Midlands Airport, Tony.

HARRIS: OK, Nic Robertson for us.

And Fran Townsend, are you still on the line with us?

OK. We just lost Fran. But the new information, Hala, that Fran was sharing with us is that this appears to have been something of a test run to check the security apparatus, to test the security situation, the screening and where packages are screened, where they're given extra attention. That appears to be the story that's developing right now. We know in these all of cases the information changes sometimes pretty rapidly.

GORANI: And sometimes pretty drastically.

HARRIS: And pretty drastically.

GORANI: Sometimes we can go from a worldwide terror alert to this suspicious package was found not to contain traces of explosives. And in the end, this is something that should reassure people because cargo is being checked. However, as was the case a few minutes ago from Nic Robertson, the all-clear, for instance at East Midlands was given.

John Lucich is a cargo plane expert. John Lucich joining us now there with his take from New Jersey on what's going on. John, what do you make of all of this?

JOHN LUCICH, FORMER CARGO PILOT (via phone): You know, it could definitely be a test run. We have an airplane that's sourced out of a hotbed for terror, which is Yemen, comes into the UK. It just goes to show that what happened in the UK was what was supposed to happen.

You know, when you take a look at cargo planes -- and I'm just to correct my title, I'm a former cargo pilot and licensed commercial pilot. Having flown cargo in the past, I can tell you never know what's in one of these packages.

When you compare a commercial flight to a cargo flight, it is much easier to screen commercial than it is to screen cargo for this main reason. You're limited in the number of people you have to search. You'r e only talking 100 to 200 people. There's limited baggage. But when you look at cargo flights and the size of the airplanes today, they're literally carrying thousands and thousands of packages as opposed to scanning a couple hundred people

So, the chances of things actually getting through are mite (ph), but - and it's great that it didn't in this instance.

GORANI: What do you mean you never know what's in a cargo package? I mean, what kind of security screening do these packages go through before they're loaded on to planes?

LUCICH: There's a variety of different technologies. but the fact that this even got as far as it got shows that there's some breakdown. It got on the airplane that actually took off in the air. Yes, did they catch it in the UK? Absolutely. But something on that Yemen side, the facility, something broke down that this even got onto the airplane in the first place.

So there are a variety of technologies. Now, this didn't have any -- this was -- appears to be a run, a test run, right? So it didn't have any residue. It wouldn't have had any bomb-making materials on it that may have been picked up by a dog or by other sensors they utilize, which is why it got so far. Maybe if it had been a real bomb, then it would have been picked up before it even got on that airplane.

So each one of these places use a variety of different technologies, backed up by dogs, and everybody's doing something different. But the fact that this got on an airplane is a concern to me. We really have to take a look at what happened in Yemen and find out why that happened. But the U.K. did a great job and it didn't go any further than that.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, John, you know, we've had a pretty robust conversation and debate about the percentage of packages that get screened at our ports all over the world, certainly here in the United States. But what percentage of the cargo that's on planes, traveling all over the world, is actually screened before it's put on these planes?

LUCICH: I'm sure that almost every package in some way, shape or form is screened. It's screened in bulk, but it's still screened. Is it possible that something can slip through? We have to find out where those weak points are and obviously Yemen is one of them. You have seen -- we have been doing a tremendous job in stopping terrorism here in the United States from people deporting from U.S. ports.

But we also see people who get on from out -- ports outside the United States, where they successfully, like the guy who had the bomb inside his pants, right? I mean this guy got on from an outside port. So we have to take a look at those ports where these weaknesses are and strengthen them up because they ultimately lead to a destination here in the United States.

HALA GORANI, CNN ANCHOR: John, you are a former cargo pilot. Have you flown out of Yemen or any country there in the Arabian gulf?

LUCICH: No, all my cargo was in the United States, although I have taken international flights for passengers.

GORANI: All right. And you -- but -- so you're saying that if indeed one of these packages was a test run, that there is a breakdown somewhere there.

LUCICH: Yes, this --

GORANI: And what is the breakdown? I mean, essentially, cargo is screened in the country of origin and then it is sent to via London or via a European country to the United States.

LUCICH: Let's take a look at what happened in the U.K. Why did the U.K. find that packable and Yemen didn't find that package? And then you compare the two processes and then you take Yemen and increase it to match the U.K.

GORANI: All right, John Lucich, thanks very much. A former cargo pilot there giving us his take on today's developments. Still, though, we need to be careful in terms of what was found. There's still no confirmation that this is indeed an explosive device or a dry run. But, Tony, you have Jeanne Meserve joining me now.

HARRIS: Yes, Jeanne is our homeland, our national security correspondent, our homeland security correspond.

And, Jeanne, I know you've got some new information and maybe even a visual to help us here.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we finally do have some pictures to show you of this device that we've been talking about. In fact, we have two photographs. Maybe we can take a look at those.

Here's one of them. This is the circuit card, as it's been described to me, that was attached to a toner cartridge. This looks like something that was not a very sophisticated make. It looks as though it was something that was cobbled together. It also looks like it's a very small device. This was attached, we're told, to a toner cartridge. And we have a second picture, which we can show you, of that toner cartridge, which gives you a sense of its dimensions. There it is. There you see it against a ruler. If you look quite hard here, I think you do -- are able to see a little bit of what looks like white powder on top of this. HARRIS: Yes.

MESERVE: Now this, we understand, is -- these are the pictures that have been distributed to law enforcement so they know what to look for, what is being talked about. This is the device that was found on board the flight that flew from Yemen into the U.K. The thing that had been manipulated, that had been changed, that had this circuit card attached, that prompted this alert to go out and people to look at other packages that were coming out of Yemen. That is why they took those planes aside in Philadelphia. That's why they took that plane aside in Newark. They believed there were packages on board those flights that may have originated in Yemen. They wanted to take a closer look. They wanted to see if they saw something like this on board.

Now, there's been an ongoing question, was this explosive or was it not?

HARRIS: Yes.

MESERVE: We've had conflicting information. I will tell you, I just talked to one official who said testing is ongoing. They felt at this point in time that it was still an outstanding question as to what the capabilities of this manipulated cartridge might or might not have been.

Tony.

HARRIS: Jeanne, any information from your sources to indicate how widespread this search of cargo planes might be? Are we just talking about UPS? Are we talking about DHL? What's the other one that comes to mind, FedEx, as well?

MESERVE: Well, we just heard Fran Townsend say that they were -- all three of those cargo companies were cooperating in this investigation.

HARRIS: Yes.

MESERVE: The planes that we know about, there are only three that we know about in the U.S. I've asked repeatedly if there are any others that they're taking a look at. I've been told at this point in time, no. I've also been told at this point in time they have not found anything suspicious on those aircraft. But they are still investigating. They are still checking them out. So we don't have, you know, a final resolution on that question.

HARRIS: And, Jeanne, while I have you here, I'm getting information -- and, Jenny, just run this by me again -- the all-clear has been sounded where, now? OK. Brooklyn, Queens and Newark. Are you saying the all-clear has been sounded at Newark International Airport? Is that the information?

OK. All right, let's do this. Jeanne, I'll give you an opportunity to follow up on this as well, but let me bring in Susan Candiotti.

And, Susan, you just heard the information that was relayed to me, that the all-clear has been sounded in Brooklyn, Queens and Newark. And you can specify that a bit for us.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Just to recap what was happening out there, this is all part of the alerts that you have been talking about. And, in fact, there was a UPS plane that they had been looking at, at Newark International Airport for quite a while now.

HARRIS: Yes.

CANDIOTTI: Again, to see whether it had a suspicious package aboard. Again, looking to see whether it had any packages that had been manipulated there. So they were checking out a UPS plane there, taking a lot of time to do so. All the law enforcement authorities involved, a number of them out there to look at this, and now we have been given the all-clear sign there.

This, of course, is in addition to the other incident that we've been telling you about as well that took place in Brooklyn, New York. This is the New York City Police Department that had been working on this, including its bomb squad, as well as the FBI also involved in this as well. But the NYPD bomb squad has also given us the all-clear on a situation involving what they called a suspicious package containing an explosive device that was found inside a UPS truck.

Now that evidently was found in the area of Queens, but then it was -- this package was removed by the bomb squad over to Brooklyn, to a facility there so they could check it out. And, in fact, we have it from officials that an all-clear -- they didn't find anything inside that package.

HARRIS: OK. Good news. Good news.

All right, Susan, appreciate it. Thank you.

Hala.

GORANI: All right. Well, we are going to -- for those of you just joining us there watching us, it's really a global security alert here involving several airports in the United States.

HARRIS: Yes.

GORANI: Also involving an airport in London. Also involving in Dubai several security checks performed on aircraft there. We understand that in Philadelphia, two UPS cargo planes are being checked for suspicious devices. In Newark, New Jersey, however, a security alert has now apparently been lifted.

HARRIS: Yes. (INAUDIBLE).

GORANI: And in Newark we've gotten the all-clear.

As for London, investigators are looking at a cargo plane there, a UPS cargo plane, that came in from Yemen, that was headed to Chicago, Illinois. But we understand, according -- and we're getting conflicting reports, Tony, here on whether or not the device, a toner cartridge that was tested, was, in fact, free of explosive devices or was, in fact, dangerous. We're still in the process there of looking into that angle.

Fran Townsend, who's in New York, joins us now with more on what her sources are telling her about this global security scare.

Fran.

FRAN TOWNSEND: Yes. I mean, look, they are now looking at packages being shipped from Yemen, whether it's by UPS, FedEx, DHL. They're looking at all the international shippers and packages coming out of Yemen. But this goes back now, we're learning, to the intelligence communities. They had intelligence not specific but about potential explosives in packages and had tracked at least three other suspicious packages previously. And so, of course, the concern now was, were these more trial runs or were these actually containing explosives? That is the packages on the planes in Dubai and the U.K.

GORANI: Yes. How long does it typically take? I mean we know as we -- you told us, in fact, today, that field tests are unreliable. So how long does it take before we, as sort of passengers and world travelers, will know whether or not there was something to be worried about today?

TOWNSEND: Well, really the question is, how quickly will officials have confidence in the test results to be able to release them. You know, it's the old story, good news travels pretty quickly. So if planes start getting cleared and U.S. officials have confidence that this was just a trial run, their incentive is to get that information out very quickly. If, on the other hand, these contained explosives, they will be slower about putting that out until they're confident that they've identified any additional threats we may not yet be aware of.

HARRIS: Well, Fran, it sounds like we're starting to get the all-clear here, East Midlands in the U.K.

TOWNSEND: That's right.

HARRIS: Yes, we're hearing --

TOWNSEND: That's right. And that's a good sign.

HARRIS: Yes. Yes.

TOWNSEND: That's right. Those are all good signs.

HARRIS: And that would indicate to you --

TOWNSEND: But, look, I think we've got to --

HARRIS: Go ahead.

TOWNSEND: Well, Tony, I think where you were going to go is, that would indicated to me they're thinking this may have been additional trial runs. HARRIS: Absolutely, yes.

TOWNSEND: But, you know, they're looking at the component pieces that were in here. What were the -- what were -- was there powder? Was there liquid? Were there syringes or wires? Was it a electric detonator or was it a liquid detonator? All those things will be relevant so that they know to build the profile of what they're looking for on potentially other packages that are shipped from Yemen.

GORANI: How do security agencies --

TOWNSEND: You know, bomb makers all have their signatures.

HARRIS: Uh-huh.

GORANI: Yes.

Fran, how do security agencies -- because this is such a global story -- how do they communicate on an emergency situation like this? Is it -- does -- I mean does the flow of information actually go smoothly?

TOWNSEND: Well, there are very strong relationships among the heads of intelligence agencies around the world and also with senior officials. I used to deal all the time with the head of intelligence in Saudi Arabia. I dealt with intelligence officials and, in fact, even President Saleh in Yemen. And so, frankly, when there's a piece of -- what we call tactical information, that is information that can be acted on immediately to thwart a threat, one of those people will pick up a telephone to make sure senior officials are aware of that and can direct action. And I'm told that's exactly what happened in this case.

GORANI: And share intelligence.

TOWNSEND: That's right. They'll share intelligence. They will -- they'll do it through the intelligence channel. They'll reach out to multiple points to make sure those who can take action are aware of the information to enable them to do just that.

GORANI: All right, Fran Townsend in New York. Thanks very much. We've been covering this story here, joining Tony Harris here, my colleague from CNN USA.

HARRIS: Thank you.

GORANI: Because it's such a global story.

HARRIS: It is.

GORANI: And it's something that's really all over the world interesting to people, whether or not screening is effective.

HARRIS: Oh, yes, is it working?

GORANI: Is it working? Are cargos being screened?

HARRIS: Yes. GORANI: I know cargo planes are of concern to many people who are looking at security on planes and aircraft and in airports.

HARRIS: Absolutely.

You know what, Hala, I want to get one other vantage point here. Mary Schiavo is with us. She's a form inspector general for the Department of Transportation.

Mary, good to talk to you.

I take it you've been watching the coverage of this episode and this event as it's been unfolding for the last few hours now. Any takeaways for you?

MARY SCHIAVO, FMR. TRANSPORTATION DEPT. INSPECTOR GEN.: Well, yes. A couple important ones. First of all, Congress, after 9/11, did task the TSA and Homeland Security to address the cargo security issue. And today we've been relying on the old rule of, know your shipment or know your shipment. For example, UPS is supposed to either know who's shipping the material or know what's in it.

And today, you know, it's interesting that they're calling it -- it might be a trial run or a dry run. This is very important because the hijackers on September 11, 2001, did several dry runs before the attacks. So this is important to get a handle on this issue. And if UPS is using a subcontractor, Yemen Airline, to do their screening and their parcels for them, that's going to be a vulnerability and it has to be closed. If they're using subcontractors, they must know them and the subcontractors must meet the security requirements.

HARRIS: Mary, one other point here. We're having a conversation about checking cargo. Give us a sense from, you know, what was your vantage point of the kind of job we're doing in this country and internationally at screening cargo.

SCHIAVO: Well, we're doing a, you know, a spot check job. You know, we certainly have equipment in place at various seaports now where we can screen and x-ray cargo shipments coming in by sea. Our vulnerabilities, though, are represented here. We have vulnerabilities around the world where things make their way into our shipment system at points around the world. And because we have to rely on many contractors in other countries, we're only good as the people doing our job. And so this has pointed out a huge vulnerability. Congress has been aware of it, but they haven't been able to close the loop. So this is probably one of our, you know, our issues that we have not addressed yet, even though in this country we're doing a much better job of screening cargo that hits our shores.

HARRIS: OK, Mary, appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Just quickly here, I'm going to scoot here in just a matter of seconds here, turn this over to T.J. Holmes and Hala Gorani. You're in terrific hands. But we're starting to get the all clear on this situation. We've been following it for the last two hours. It seems like longer than that because it's been pretty tense. GORANI: Right.