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Direction of the Country; Steve Jobs' Health Concerns; Surprise Return of Former Haitian Dictator; Debate Over Classroom Size/Obamas Honor Martin Luther King Day by Volunteering/Martin Luther King Memorial Nears Completion

Aired January 17, 2011 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: Time now for a CNN political update, new numbers on what Americans think about the direction of the country on Martin Luther King Jr. Day.

CNN Chief National Correspondent John King has more from the CNN Political Desk in Washington.

Hey, John.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good to see you, Ali.

You know, today, as we honor the work, the tribute, the legacy of the late Dr. Martin Luther King, we decided to ask in our polling, "Has the United States fulfilled Dr. King's vision?"

The country is evenly divided; 48 percent of Americans say yes, 49 percent say no. So, will we eventually fulfill the dream? Twenty- six percent say we will, 23 percent, Ali, skeptical. They say we never will.

Mike Pence is a conservative congressman from Indiana. He has a big choice to make. Should he run for governor in his state next cycle, or for president?

Well, a group of conservatives has started a new committee to try to convince him to run for president. He's a social conservative, a fiscal conservative. America's President Committee, they call it. A petition drive today urging Mike Pence to run, trying to tell him, hey, buddy, you get in, we'll help you raise money.

And Ali, we've all asked the question since the shooting in Arizona, will the toxic, sometimes pushy nature of our political rhetoric changes some? Here's one example as we go into the health care debate this week.

You'll remember the health care repeal bill in the House, it was titled "Repealing the Job-Killing Health Care Law Act." And Republicans always use "job-killing."

Speaker Boehner Web site suggesting a bit of a change. Now it says "job-crushing" and "job-destroying." So the word "killing" being dropped there. That's the first sign that the rhetoric maybe will be turned down, at least just a little bit, post-Tucson -- Ali.

VELSHI: We'll keep track on that.

OK, John. Good to see you, as always. Thanks very much.

John King.

All right. Just after 2:00 on the East. We've just learned of another surgical procedure for Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, an operation that was done on Saturday to remove bone fragments from the socket of her right eye.

In the briefing last hour, doctors said they knew this was something they would have to do, but they couldn't do it until they thought Giffords was strong enough. We already knew that Giffords had been taken off a ventilator Saturday. She received a feeding tube. And yesterday she was elevated from critical to serious condition.

Now, from the beginning, surgeons have been hugely impressed with their progress. And that remains the case today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. MICHAEL LEMOLE, UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: I'm happy to say that within a few hours of the surgery, she was waking up, and through the weekend she came back to the same baseline she had been before the surgery, that same level of interaction she's been having with us. And that's all very good. And at this time, we're hoping to continue tying up those loose ends and get her ready for that third phase of her care, the rehabilitation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELSHI: Now, as for when the rehabilitation phase will begin, Dr. Lemole suggests it will be days to weeks from now.

On to another health story, this one with huge implications for business, technology, and all of our digital lifestyles in general. Apple CEO Steve Jobs is taking another medical leave of absence.

This one comes almost exactly two years after his first leave which lasted six months, during which he underwent a liver transplant. A few years before that he had surgery for a rare form of pancreatic cancer. And ever since, he's been bone-thin but outwardly energetic. And from all indications, on top of his game. That's certainly true of his company.

In an e-mail that he sent to Apple employees, Jobs writes, "Team: At my request, the board of directors has granted me a medical leave of absence so I can focus on my health. I will continue as CEO and be involved in major strategic decisions for the company. I have asked Tim Cook" -- who is Apple's chief operating officer -- "to be responsible for all of Apple's day-to-day operations. I have great confidence that Tim and the rest of the executive management team will do a terrific job executing the exciting plans we have in place for 2011." He goes on to say, "I love Apple so much and hope to be back as soon as I can. In the meantime, my family and I would deeply appreciate respect for our privacy."

CNN Senior Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen joins me now for "Two at the Top."

Elizabeth, this is an ongoing saga with Steve Jobs' health. Tell us what he suffered from.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. Sadly, it is. And we haven't heard much for a little while. So let's go back and take a look.

In 2003 was when he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. Now, this is a rare form of pancreatic cancer that's a lot easier to treat than the other forms like, for example, that actor Patrick Swayze had.

And then in 2004, he had surgery to remove that tumor. And then in 2009, he received a liver transplant. And doctors who are not associated with this case say that was probably because the cancer had spread to his liver, so they wanted to give him a new liver.

VELSHI: All right. What do we think this likely is?

COHEN: I've been asking a bunch of doctors, specialists in pancreatic cancer, this question. And they say it could be one of a whole host of things.

It could be, for example, that his cancer has come back. That's possible.

It could be that his body is rejecting his liver. Even a year and a half later, that is possible.

It could be that because he's -- he's taking a lot of immunosuppression drugs. You want to suppress the immune system when you get a new liver. It could be that he has contracted some kind of virus. He could now be a diabetic because of the surgery on his pancreas.

It could be none of the things I just mentioned. It's really hard to know.

VELSHI: Is everything you mentioned treatable?

COHEN: Well, they're treatable to different degrees, but the cancer coming back would be very difficult to treat. There would not be a lot of options left for cancer that has spread like that. Also, if he's rejected the liver, that would also be a very, very difficult situation.

VELSHI: OK. Well, we will keep on top of it with you. Thank you so much, Elizabeth.

COHEN: Thank you. VELSHI: All right. If you can't say something nice, you might have a shot at hosting the Golden Globes, and thus becoming one of our "Sound Effects."

Last night, in his second stint as Globe host, Ricky Gervais went out of his way to offend some of the biggest names in showbiz. In this bit, he leaves his target unnamed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICKY GERVAIS, HOST, GOLDEN GLOBE AWARDS: Also not nominated, "I Love You, Philip Morris," Jim Carrey and Ewan McGregor, two heterosexuals pretending to be gay. So the exact opposite of some Scientologists then. Probably.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELSHI: Well, Gervais meets his match on Thursday, when he's a guest on CNN's "PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT." Piers' big debut is tonight. His very first guest, Oprah Winfrey.

Now, Piers will join me live at the bottom of the hour, 2:30 Eastern Time, right here in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'll ask him some of your questions.

(NEWSBREAK)

VELSHI: He was ousted and exiled 25 years ago to a mix of joy and rage. Now Haiti's divisive former dictator Jean-Claude "Baby Doc" Duvalier is back on his home turf. His unexpected return yesterday, well, that was the country's latest curveball.

CNN's John Zarrella has the latest developments from Port-au- Prince.

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ali, I can tell you, back in 1986, when I was hear for his departure, there was a lot more excitement on the street that he was leaving than we've seen so far here in Port-au-Prince about his arrival.

We're outside the Karibe hotel here up in Petionville, just outside of Port-au-Prince, and this is where we had expected that Jean-Claude Duvalier would hold a news conference today. That had been promised, but late this morning it was announced that, no, it was not going to happen, that he's resting today, and that very likely, it would happen tomorrow.

Now, one of his closest friends, someone that we recalled grew up with him since he was a boy here on the island, said that, look, he came back because he feels for the Haitian people, he had seen all of the stories of the one-year anniversary, and in his heart just felt like he needed to be here. So that's why he came back.

When I asked, "Well, how long is he planning to stay?" because there had been reports that he would only be here for two or three days, I was not really given an answer, saying, "Well, we really don't know how long he intends to be here."

As for the government, the Rene Preval government, they've said nothing about Duvalier's return to this point. The only thing we did hear was that one minister remarked late yesterday, after the surprise arrival here, that, look, it's not going to make too much of a difference here, life is going on. We're really not worried about the fact that he's back.

But the questions remain, why did he choose this time? What's his purpose for being here? And it does not appear that we're going to get those answers from Jean-Claude Duvalier, at least not today -- Ali.

VELSHI: All right, John. Thanks very much for that.

John will continue to follow that.

Here are some live pictures, by the way, of some flooding in the Pacific Northwest. This is from our affiliate KIRO, just to give you some sense of how serious a lot of that flooding actually is.

We've got that to tell you about and a tornado watch in Florida. We're going to give you a severe weather update right after this break.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELSHI: I want to show you some pictures of a rescue in the Seattle area where heavy rain, combined with melting snow, is causing floods and mudslides. A couple who were trying to rescue their dog from a kennel got stuck in high water.

Now, people living nearby could hear the woman screaming, but they couldn't see her. So they yelled back into the darkness offering reassurances.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROSE CHISHOLM, TRIED TO REASSURE WOMAN: "Hang on. People are coming. The fire department are coming. There's a boat. We're looking for you. We'll be coming."

Just trying to reassure her that she wasn't going to be left there for a long time.

DEP. STEVE MARSHALL, KING COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPT.: The dog wasn't worth their lives. And I think the dog is safe where it's at, and there's actually somebody there at the kennels.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELSHI: Sheriff's deputies were finally able to find the couple and rescue them. Both of them were cold, but they were unhurt. Floods and landslides have crows closed a number of Seattle-area roads. They've knocked down power lines. A Transportation Department worker who was setting up cones to alert motorists was killed by a falling tree.

Now, farther south from that, mudslides are also blocking roads along the northern Oregon coast. Floods washed away at least two homes along the Sandy River outside of Portland, and dozens of homes were evacuated.

Bonnie Schneider joins me now. She's been following the weather developments across the country.

(WEATHER REPORT)

VELSHI: Hey, the winners have collected their awards, the losers have clapped with pretend smiles. It's the Golden Globes. They may be wrapped up, but the jury is still out on one performance you're going to want to see.

We'll go live straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELSHI: Well, the movie "The Social Network" must have collected a lot of friends among the Hollywood Foreign Press Association. The movie about the founding of Facebook was the big winner at last night's Golden Globes. It took home four awards -- Best Motion Picture Drama, Best Director, Best Screenplay, and Best Original Score.

The film's big acting award went to veteran Colin Firth, who was the best actor in a drama for "The King's Speech," and Natalie Portman, the best actress in a drama for "The Black Swan."

Meantime, over on the small screen, also honored at the same awards, a joyful night for "Glee." The show won Best Comedy Series, and cast members took home Globes for best actress and best supporting actor.

Here is our entertainment correspondent Kareen Wynter, live in L.A. with more on that.

All of that stuff wasn't even the highlight of the show, Kareen.

KAREEN WYNTER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Oh, no. We've got the good stuff for you, Ali.

You mentioned the big winners, but all people are talking about today, it seems, Ricky Gervais' performance last night. It's really hard to say if last night's performance though by the outlandish comic was a winner or a loser.

Now, initial ratings indicate about the same number of viewers tuned in for the show. It's up a little bit from last year, despite Ricky's sharp, sharp, sharp tongue. Now, Ricky said he didn't go far enough hosting last year, Ali, because he was invited to return as host. He promised he wasn't going to hold back with his jokes. And, boy, he did not. It seemed Ricky spared no one in Hollywood.

You have to listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GERVAIS: And I'd like to quash this ridiculous rumor going around that the only reason "The Tourist" was nominated was so the Hollywood Foreign Press could hang out with Johnny Depp and Angelina Jolie. That is rubbish. That is not the only reason, they also accepted bribes.

All that happened was some of them were taken to see Cher in concert. How the hell is that a bribe? Really? Do you want to go see Cher?

No. Why not? Because it's not 1975.

(LAUGHTER)

GERVAIS: He has done all those films, but many of you in this room probably know him best from such facilities as the Betty Ford Clinic and Los Angeles County Jail.

Please welcome Robert Downey Jr.

ROBERT DOWNEY JR., ACTOR: Aside from the fact that it's been mean-spirited, with mildly sinister undertones, I would say the vibe of the show is pretty good so far. Wouldn't you?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WYNTER: OK. So we jumped ahead a little bit, we got a little ahead of ourselves. Here's what happened.

So you heard the jokes.

VELSHI: Right.

WYNTER: Not a lot of stars were laughing. And you heard Robert Downey Jr. actually fire back, saying, you know what? This is not OK. So many awkward moments.

And we caught up with Robert Downey Jr. at the end of the night, Ali. He said, "You know what? It's all right. He's a nice guy."

But I think a lot of stars, all night long, they were kind of digging into their skin doing this. It was awkward, awkward, awkward.

VELSHI: And is he getting a third year? Is he going to do it next year?

WYNTER: You know what? People are talking. And this is really what the Golden Globes hope for, the next day that people are talking about the show.

The ratings again were up slightly from last year. But you know what? You can't make these big A-listers feel uncomfortable.

Ricky Gervais also took a jab at the Hollywood Foreign Press, referring to them as "The Academy."

It's not the Oscars, Ricky. This was the Golden Globes.

So we'll have to see if he's back. But he said, "My mission was either to really, really go out there and never be invited back, or be so good that I wouldn't need to come back."

So, poor Ricky. Let's give him a break. He's a comedian. This is what they do. But definitely some "OMG" moments.

VELSHI: Right.

Kareen, good to see you, as always. Thanks very much.

And Gervais, by the way, meets his match on Thursday, when he's a guest on CNN's "PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT."

Piers' big debut is tonight. His very first guest is Oprah Winfrey. We'll get a personal preview from Piers himself in about 10 minutes, where he joins me live to talk about the show.

All right, 21 minutes after the hour. Let me bring you up to speed with some developments in our top stories.

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELSHI: Well, this is a strange way to mark an anniversary. Check that out.

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety is celebrating its 50th birthday by crashing a 1959 Chevy Bel Air on the right into a 2009 Chevy Malibu. The point is to show how far automobile safety has come in the last half a century, or maybe they just want an excuse to make a big mess.

All right. NASA has decided to give us a peak at the future of flying. Here are a few pictures of plane designs for 2025.

The futuristic models are supposed to produce less noise, use less fuel, and have a cleaner exhaust. Now, these green planes are still in concept mode, but NASA is expected to release more information about them as the plans progress.

And the ugly duckling may end up getting the guy. A new study by the online dating site OKCupid.com -- that's OK-Cupid.com -- shows that female users get more hits if their appearance is under debate.

A few key points of the study are that men will like a woman more if there is a split over her looks. Men tend to ignore women they see as just cute, and a disagreement over looks are going to get a woman on the site more attention. The OK-Cupid researchers theorize that men stray away from the pretty girls because they think there will be more competition.

OK. The moment we've been waiting for. He's a judge on one of the top-rated shows in the U.S., "America's Got Talent." He was the winner of "Celebrity Apprentice." And now he's coming to CNN.

I'm going to talk live with Piers Morgan right after this short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELSHI: All right. Happening now, Apple CEO Steve Jobs is taking another medical leave of absence. In an e-mail sent to employees, he says he wants to take time off to focus on his health. He was previously diagnosed with cancer and had a liver transplant a couple of years ago, but he's not saying what's ailing him now.

In Washington, the House of Representatives is set to vote on a repeal of President Obama's health care overhaul this week. We're hearing the debate on the floor will happen tomorrow and a vote on Wednesday. The repeal has little chance of passing in the Democratic- controlled Senate.

And there are flood warnings today across much of Oregon and Washington state. Heavy rains have already caused landslides and closed roads in the Pacific Northwest.

Well, a new era begins at CNN tonight. "PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT" debuts at 9:00 p.m. Eastern. On tonight's first episode, Piers will interview billionaire and TV network owner Oprah Winfrey. We've seen clips of the interview running all last week and this pst weekend.

Piers joins us live from his set on New York -- in New York. Piers, great to see you. Congratulations, and good luck on your launch today. I appreciate from the ads we've been seeing about you, that you're a bit of a dandy. You like the cuff links and nice coats.

(LAUGHTER)

VELSHI: I'm trying to figure out where that comes from. Your wife wrote a hilarious article in "The Telegraph" about this past week of taping for you. You said your interviews are so intense that you actually take on the characteristics for your interviewees for a short time after the interview, almost like an interrogation of police -- of a suspect. When you interviewed Oprah, what characteristic of hers did you take on?

PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST, "PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT": Well, it's funny. I came back and suddenly discovered I had a net worth of $2.5 billion.

(LAUGHTER) MORGAN: So my wife was clearly right about that. In relation to my dress code, I realize when I joined CNN, Ali, there was one man I had to beat, the smartest guy in the room, and that is you. So, I've been studying your wardrobe now for a few months, and I'm determined to beat you. So, I've got on the full Dolce & Gabbana look today.

VELSHI: Very nice. We'll enjoy that competition.

Let me ask you this. Are there any topics when you're interviewed -- you're known as a tough interview - are there any topics when you are interviewing someone that you don't take on, that you consider off-limits?

MORGAN: No. I've always kind of believed as an interviewer you should be free to ask any question that you like. I mean, the bottom line is, they don't have to answer. But I do think this kind of practice that's developed over the last 10, 15 years where managers, agents, publicists and so on dictate what kind of questions you should be free to put to a guest, I think is ridiculous. Because an interview should be free and open. As I say, you don't have to answer.

So, you know, let the interviewer ask whatever they want. I always do when I do interview. You could ask me literally anything you'd like now, and I can't think of anything that would really upset me.

VELSHI: Let me ask you this. Because a lot of people have been -- I've asked people on Twitter and Facebook to see what they'd like to ask you. I hope over the coming years our viewers will have that opportunity to interact with you and find out more about it.

Have you been intimidated ever by someone you interviewed? Has anyone that made you feel like an amateur or made you feel like you didn't handle that very well?

MORGAN: I think the only one physically was when I interviewed Mike Tyson backstage at a concert in New York. It was in the late '80s, early '90s. I've never met a more intimidating character physically than Tyson at his peak. He was then the world champion.

And I got into a conversation about his pigeon fancying, as we call it back in England, his love of pigeons. And I think something broke down in the thread between the British and the American vernacular. And he mistook what I was asking him about his love for pigeons, and things turned quite ugly quite quickly. I was lucky to get out of that alive.

VELSHI: You're following in the footsteps - you're following a TV legend, Larry King. Larry went on Ryan Seacrest's radio show and sang Lady Gaga's poker face. Strangely, we have lost it. We don't have the video of how you handled that. You were not prepared to sing. Why?

MORGAN: Well, can you imagine being a judge on "America's Got Talent," where the key thing is that you never, ever show anybody your own lack of talent? And there I am -- Ryan knew this -- he tried to get me -- you have got it.

VELSHI: We do have it, strangely!

MORGAN: I can hear my wailing in the background. It was excruciating. But I didn't sing, it was more like a pathe news rap, which is the British TV news bulletins during the Second World War, wehre somebody had a ludicrous voice, "Good afternoon, this is Her Majesty's BBC network."

So, I tried to do it in that voice to try and get off the rap.

VELSHI: All right. Let me ask you this. Oprah is tonight, and nobody needs an excuse to watch Oprah. Everybody loves Oprah. Great first interview to have.

Later on in the week, you've got Howard Stern. There are a lot of people who don't find him that interesting. He's got a remarkable following. But if somebody doesn't like somebody you're featuring, what are you going to do for them? What are you going to do for the viewer who says, "I don't really care to hear Howard Stern interviewed?" How are your interviews going to be different?

MORGAN: Well, I actually think there might be as big an audience for Howard than Oprah simply because people will sort of be curious to see how I engage battle with Howard. He is sort of a radio pugalist. And you go into this kind of encounter with someone like Howard Stern with a mixture of trepidation and excitement.

And certainly, the interview was electrifying. He was completely outrageous, and he tries to hijack your show at any given second. And you have to be right on your metal to try to control him and try to keep the interview the way you want it where you're the boss.

I found it a brilliant experience. I think that even if you don't like the guest I have, or even if you don't like me, it shouldn't really be the criteria for watching. I don't always find that the TV programs I like watching are necessarily with people I particularly like myself. What I want to se is energy and dynamism, humor -- very important, I think -- a sense of enthusiasm on behalf of the interviewer for the guest and the guest for coming on the show.

There's nothing more boring than boring TV. Who wants to watch that? And the one thing I can guarantee, people, is that I will not be boring.

VELSHI: We look forward to that. One of the things that you do, and you're certainly not boring on Twitter, in addition to liking clothes, we both engage folks on Twitter a lot. You've got a bit of take no-prisoners attitude in social media. Has this gotten you into trouble? Are you worried about that?

MORGAN: The whole point of Twitter is we're all twits. You should just behave like a twit on Twitter. I like to embrace the spirit and ethos of what Twitter was designed for, which is just sort of mindless chattering with anybody you fancy. And I like picking fights and having fun and teasing and provoking. Because that's the whole point of it. Not reinventing the wheel. It's called Twitter for a reason.

VELSHI: You have been known to a lot of Americans for "America's Got Talent and for "Celebrity Apprentice." But in your time, a lot of what you're going to be covering is news. Give my viewers a sense of your pedigree with the news.

MORGAN: Well, I spent 20 years in Fleet Street, which is Britain's newspaper industry. I ended up being appointed by Rupert Murdoch, the editor of his biggest selling newspaper, "The News of the World" when I was 28 years old, which is pretty young. I did two years there and then went to one of his rival newspapers, "The Daily Mirror," which was a big daily newspaper in Britain, one of the biggest selling, sold over 2.5 million copies a day.

I was editor in chief there for ten years, and that covered a decade including 9/11 and Princess Diana's death and some of the biggest news stories of our lifetime. I ran a newsroom of 400 journalists throughout that period and won a lot of awards for our coverage.

So, news is really my background. I mean, the entertainment stuff came as kind of a second career, but I don't really see myself as a born and bred talent show judge or even a born and bred interviewer so much as a born and bred journalist. That's my training, that's my background. I hope I'll get my chance to show those skills perhaps when there is a big breaking news story and I can go live and go back into the newsroom environment that I was used to for so long.

VELSHI: Lots of news around. I'm sure you'll get that opportunity, Piers. We look forward to your debut tonight on CNN. Piers Morgan is the host of "PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT," kicking off tonight 9:00 Eastern with an interview with Oprah.

By the way, quite a great lineup for the entire week. We'll all be watching. Piers, congratulations. Welcome to the fold. And we look forward to the show.

MORGAN: Thank you. I'm glad you pulled out your best tie today for me as well.

VELSHI: It's a brand new one. Never been seen on TV before.

MORGAN: There's a reason why it hasn't been seen on TV.

(LAUGHTER)

VELSHI: We're going to have a fun time, the two of us.

All right, Piers Morgan. We'll be watching that closely. Keep on following him on Twitter @PiersMorgan.

Well, is it a raging debate heard across the country. Are small class sizes the best way to improve public schools? This is it an interesting ongoing debate. We'll hear from both sides of the spectrum coming up after the break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELSHI: Fixing America's public schools is the subject of an old debate, but it is more important than ever today, given the huge budget cuts for education across the country. On one side are those who see small classes as a key solution to improving our schools. That's the position that Leone Henson, a New York City public school parent and the executive director of the advocacy group Class Size Matters takes. She joins us from New York.

The other side, Matthew Chingos, he's a research fellow at Harvard University's program on education policy and govern as he joins us via Skype from Puerto Rico.

Leone, let me start with you. Let's talk a little bit about why do you strongly believe, having looked at this, that smaller class sizes are better for our students than larger class sizes, even though there have been studies that show the opposite.

LEONE HAMISON, NYC PUBLIC SCHOOL PARENT: Well, I think it's very clear the Institute for Education Sciences, which is the research arm of the U.S. Department of Education, says there are only four education reforms that have been proven to work with rigorous evidence, and class size reduction is one of them. Allen Krueger, professor at Princeton, who's also the former chief economist for the Labor Department and the Treasury Department has shown that class size reduction not only narrows the achievement gap but provides economic benefit that are twice the cost.

Parents and teachers know this. In surveys across the country, teachers say it's the number one way that would improve their effectiveness. And common sense tells us as well. So, I think the research, the stakeholders, the surveys, they all tell us that class size is an important determinant of student success, and we should do nothing to increase class sizes if we really want students to learn and achieve.

VELSHI: Matthew, researcher at Harvard, you have found in your research otherwise. Tell me about the research you've done and what you learned from it.

MATTHEW CHINGOS , HARVARD RESEARCHER: Sure. I'd be glad to. I did a study of a large-scale class size reduction policy that was implemented in Florida. And what it did was it changed the state constitution to reduce class sizes K-12. And while there is some pretty good evidence that smaller classes make a difference in the early grades, the evidence was a lot weaker in the later grades. So, a lot of the grades I focused on were the middle school grades, from 4-8. And I found really no evidence it made a difference in Florida.

One possible reason is it may be the case it was better for some students but because the state had to hire thousands and thousands of new teachers, they ended up hiring less effective teachers that offset some of the gains. You have to think not just about the effects it has when you have to hire a few more teachers. If you do it across the board, you have to hire a lot more teachers. VELSHI: Leone, let's talk about that. In the hierarchy of things that you would like to happen to create a better situation for public education in America, there are issues with teachers, there are issues with teacher training and evaluation. There are issues with class size and the condition of schools and the resources that they have.

Are you of the view that class size is the most important thing? and based on what Matthew said, do you agree that it's more important in younger grades than it is, say, toward the end of high school?

HAMISON: Well, first of all I'd just like to say that Jeremy Finn (ph), a professor at SUNY Buffalo, has shown some severe methodical flaws with Mr. Chingos's study. I don't want to go into detail about it. It's highly technical.

But given that there are only a very few things we know absolutely work to improve student achievement, and given one of the critical problems on the horizon right is the achievement gap between racial and economic groups, I think it's very appropriate that today, on the celebration of Martin Luther King's birthday, we should be having this discussion because to this day, black students continue to suffer from much larger classes than the average student. We know it works to narrow the achievement gap. We know there are inequitable class size conditions across the country, especially for poor and minority kids. This is something where our first priority and our dollars should be going into investing in the classroom.

Right now, states are spending billions of dollars on unproven programs like merit pay for teachers and increasing on-line learning. I can tell you in New York City, the Department of education occasion plans to spend $1 billion next year, $1 billion, to expand on-line learning throughout the city. This is a huge mistake. That money should be going to programs we know work to improve opportunities for kids, like smaller classes where they can get actual individualized attention from a real-life teacher...

VELSHI: Matthew...

HAIMSON: ... instead of sitting on a computer.

VELSHI: Matthew, what's your response to that?

MATTHEW CHINGOS, RESEARCH FELLOW, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Sure. I think Leonie made one great point in there, which is that there is some pretty good evidence that smaller classes make even more of a difference for disadvantaged kids and for minority kids than for more advantaged kids and -minority kids. So I think one important thing to keep in mind is you really want to avoid a one-size-fits-all mentality. I think that's a mistake a lot of these states like Florida have made in trying to implement the class size reductions across the board.

So you want to think about -- can you focus the resources on where they have the biggest impact? One problem with class size reduction is it's enormously expensive. You have to hire teachers, build new classrooms, and so on and so forth. So once you mandate it across the board, you have to hire all these inexperienced new teachers and potentially less effective new teachers, whereas if you just let schools and districts pursue these policies, they can pursue them in more targeted ways, for example, focusing in the kinds of communities where the research shows us reducing class size makes more of a difference. So you have really avoid that one-size-fits-all kind of mentality.

VELSHI: Matthew, is there a number -- I guess, given what you've just said, you're not going to give me a number in terms of what the ideal class size is because you don't want a one-size-fits-all. But do you have a number in your head?

CHINGOS: Well, I'll tell you...

HAIMSON: I can tell you...

CHINGOS: ... the ideal class size...

VELSHI: Hold on, Leonie. I'll get to you in a second. Matthew, go ahead.

CHINGOS: Sure. I mean, the ideal class size in a world with unlimited money is one, right? It's always easiest to learn when you're by yourself.

HAIMSON: No, I don't (INAUDIBLE)

CHINGOS: So there's no doubt that, in theory, it's better to have fewer kids per teacher. The problem is, it's so -- you know, we know we can't afford to have only one kid per class. So the question is, you know, where do we balance the trade-off between having fewer kids per teacher and have to hire more teachers and having to spend enormous amounts of money to do that? And keep in mind, I'm not saying we should spend less money on education. I'm saying those resources could be deployed in potentially more effective ways.

VELSHI: OK, Leonie, I only have a little bit of time. Tell me what you think the ideal size is.

HAIMSON: Well, I can tell you that the people making education policy for this country now, people like Bill Gates and Mayor Bloomberg, send their kids to private schools where no class sizes are larger than 15. And yet in the larger urban districts, class sizes are often 30 or more. It is highly inequitable and it is highly hypocritical of these same men to be favoring increases in class sizes in our large urban school districts, where class sizes are going up every day and money is being wasted, wasted in lots of ways where there's no research backing and there's no support for it among stakeholder groups.

So I say let's reduce class sizes first in the neediest schools. But to the contrary, those are the places where class sizes are going up the most. I can tell you in Detroit, they're proposing to increase class sizes to 60 in the schools where our poorest students attend. This is a huge inequitable situation. It's getting worse. And on Martin Luther King, Jr.'s, birthday, we should not allow this to happen.

VELSHI: OK, thanks to both of you for joining us, Leonie Haimson and Matthew Chingos. Of course, this conversation will continue.

Financial troubles have followed a planned memorial to Martin Luther King, Jr. Today we honor Dr. King with a holiday in his name, but when will the physical monument be finished? I'm going to talk to the project's president right after this.

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VELSHI: Today we observe Martin Luther King, Jr., Day. The nation's first family marked the day by volunteering on a project in Washington. The day included some painting by the president and the first lady, who also happened to be celebrating her 47th birthday. The president talked about the message he is trying to send.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Dr. King obviously had a dream of justice and equality in our society, but he also had a dream of service, that you could be a drum major for service, you could lead by giving back to our communities. And that's what this program is all about. That's what these participants are all about.

Michelle and I and the girls are extraordinarily proud that each year on Martin Luther King's birthday, this is how we celebrate, is making sure that we're giving a little something back to the community. And I hope that all the projects that are taking place all across the country on this day are getting similar attention.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELSHI: Well, a national monument in Washington honoring Dr. King has been 15 years in the making. Here's what it's expected to look like from the air. A little later this year, the work is scheduled to be finished along the edge of the Tidal Basin. This is a picture of the stone of hope. That is the centerpiece of Memorial Park.

Joining me now from Washington to about the memorial is Harry Johnson. He's the president and CEO of the Martin Luther King, Jr., Memorial Project Foundation. Harry, thanks very much for being with us. Are you on schedule to have this opening up -- I believe August is when it's expected to be done?

HARRY JOHNSON, PRES. & CEO MLK MEMORIAL FOUNDATION: Yes, we are. We're on schedule. We're going to open up August 28th. So we're very pleased as to where we're going. We still need to raise a few dollars, but guess what? We're going to get there. We still need $11 million, but we're asking everyone to please contribute to the Martin Luther King Memorial Project Foundation.

VELSHI: You've had some very big corporate donors and you've had people writing fairly small checks to you. JOHNSON: Yes. We have been very pleased. Years ago, General Motors at $10 million, Tommy Hilfiger at $5 million, Aflac and others at a million dollars. But we've also had just the regular human beings who've donated $5, $2. And when you ask, Who really should build this memorial for Dr. King? Should it be corporate America? Should it be the federal government? It should be anyone who ever benefited from anything Dr. King said or did. That includes all of us.

VELSHI: Tell me a bit about the memorial. What will it achieve? What will it do? What are you expecting? What role do you think it's going to play?

JOHNSON: Well, it's going to -- in times that we are in now, when we look at Tucson and other things that have happened in our country and world, I think this is going to be a memorial for peace. It's going to actually have Dr. King's face there.

You're going to walk through two huge mountains. We call that the "Mountain of Despair," two boulders 30 feet tall. And then once on the other side of the "Mountain of Despair," you will see in a crescent-shaped wall Dr. King's words etched on that wall, 700 feet long. And then when you walk out towards the Tidal Basin, there on the third stone that looks like it was pulled through the "Mountain of Despair," you will see Dr. King standing there, looking at Jefferson.

And I think the individuals who come to this memorial are going to see a serenity kind of peace setting as they read Dr. King's words, and it has become and it will become a living memorial for those who will see it.

VELSHI: All right, so you've got that memorial that you've been working very hard on. How do you feel about the rest of the memorial -- in other words, this day that we honor Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and whether we've lived up to his visions? Because we just took a poll at CNN Opinion Research Corporation, and we found that about half of Americans think that we've lived up to what he's done. About a quarter think we haven't but we'll get there. And about a quarter think we're never going to get there.

JOHNSON: Well, you know, it's our hope -- and everybody talks about this -- that we all become servants like Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. But when you look worldwide and you see turmoil all over the world, his words resonate now more than ever, when we talk about peace, when we talk about that the moral arc of the universe is long but it does bend towards justice.

Dr. King stood for resolving any disagreements that you have peacefully, that we could disagree with one another but yet not be disagreeable. I think that we have a lot to strive for when we talk about peace and unity. We're fighting two wars. Dr. King was not a man of war but a man of peace. And this will be the first memorial on the National Mall to a man of color, a man of peace, and a non- president.

VELSHI: Harry Johnson, you're still looking for $11 million to finish this job up. But congratulations, and we will follow the progress all the way to August 28th, when you unveil the memorial on the Washington Mall. Harry Johnson is the president and CEO of the Martin Luther King National Memorial Foundation Project -- Project Foundation.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

VELSHI: Thank you for being with us.

We're going to take a break. We'll be right back.

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VELSHI: And that'll do it for me. I'll hand it over to Brooke Baldwin. You're in good hands with her -- Brooke.