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Protests in Egypt; U.S. Secretary of State Clinton: 'Absolutely Vital For Egypt to Embrace Reform'; Former Secretary of Defense William Cohen Discusses Egypt; Former Assistant Sec. of State James Rubin Addresses Importance of U.S.-Egypt Relations

Aired January 28, 2011 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: We are hitting the top of the hour now. I'm Carol Costello, along with Hala Gorani.

We'd like to welcome viewers from around the world on our CNN sister station, CNN International. And we just want to keep looking at these incredible pictures out of Cairo, Egypt.

HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Absolutely, Carol.

These are unprecedented pictures. We heard it from Ben Wedeman. In modern Egyptian history, we're seeing the military on the streets of Cairo. This hasn't happened in a generation. That means --

COSTELLO: Something really fascinating about this is they are treating the military with such respect. The riot police they kind of hate.

GORANI: Well, the riot police has cracked down rather harshly on protesters over the last few days. The military possible seen as perhaps a more stable institution, so perhaps for that reason they are being welcome.

And I know Ben Wedeman, who has been covering Egyptian for years, has some perspective on this.

Ben, tell us how ordinary Egyptians out on the streets of the Egyptian capital are greeting the military. And why?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: (INAUDIBLE) about the military. And the reason is that the military has always been very hesitant to become involved in the nitty-gritty of politics.

They've always been very hesitant to come out into the streets and put down unrest because they don't want to be seen as the Egyptian army killing Egyptians in the streets. There are only -- the most recent time they were out was in 1985, when they had to put down a riot by the police, of all institutions. And in 1977, when there were bread riots across the country, when the price of bread was increased during the time of former Egyptian President Anwar Sadat.

COSTELLO: Ben -- I hate to interrupt, Ben, but are you looking at this picture? It seems like they are overtaking that military vehicle. WEDEMAN: Well, they are overtaking it, but not in an aggressive or violent way. More -- they are chanting their support for the army.

COSTELLO: So what is the goal here? I mean, the army is controlled by President Mubarak, right? So they respect the army, but not the president. So how does that jive with each other?

WEDEMAN: Well, of course, it is protected -- you know, the nominal head of the army is President Hosni Mubarak. But it's seen as an institution in and of itself, not as an appendage of the president.

And, of course, Egyptians remember the army's involvement in the October, 1973 war, when, at least in the initial phases, the Egyptian army was able to drive Israeli forces away from the Suez Canal, an area that had been occupied by Israel in the 1967 War. So President Mubarak has been very careful to cultivate the military, to make sure that they are well paid, they're well equipped, the army corps is happy with its lot, and that was part of -- simply, the process is quite common in Middle Eastern politics of placating the army, making sure that the army will not move against you.

So, in that sense, they are associated with the president. But as I said, they've always been hesitant to be involved or forced or compelled to put down public unrest. That has always been the job on a sort of regular routine basis of the massive and omnipresent security forces, the intelligent services, the secret police, the ordinary police.

COSTELLO: Got you. Ben Wedeman, stand by.

We want to bring in former defense secretary William Cohen to try to put this into perspective for us, from an American perspective.

So thank you so much for joining us, Secretary Cohen.

WILLIAM COHEN, FMR. DEFENSE SECRETARY: It's great to be with you.

COSTELLO: So you were a former defense secretary. As you sit here -- if you were the defense secretary today, as you're looking at these pictures, what would be going through your mind?

COHEN: Well, the first question would be the state of the military itself. You just have been carrying on a discussion with Ben Wedeman about the role of the military in the Egyptian life. The question would become whether or not they remain loyal to the president, President Mubarak, because at this particular point, or at some point during the course of the next hours, he may call upon them to take more aggressive action.

Right now they are simply there showing a presence. But then the question becomes, if the protesters continue to gather momentum and continue to move toward government buildings, creating any kind of chaos, then what will the military then do? So I think that would be the first thing that we would look to, whether or not they are loyal to the president, whether he is going to give them instruction to take a much harsher line.

I would also hope that the president at some point would speak to the Egyptian people to indicate that he is willing to listen to some of the demands that they are making, although it's not quite clear what the demands are going to be.

COSTELLO: Right.

COHEN: They are obviously economic in nature, they are obviously political in the sense that greater freedom, freedom of press, freedom of opportunity, economic opportunity, an independent judiciary, all of those institutions of democratic reform certainly will be part of it. But I think the president is going to have to, at some point in the near future, address the Egyptian people if he hopes to diffuse the crisis.

COSTELLO: Secretary Cohen, stand by. I believe we have Nic Robertson.

GORANI: Yes, we have Nic Robertson, because these protests, for all of you watching us in the United States and around the world, have taken place over the last few days not just in Cairo, but in Alexandria and in the port city of Suez, where we saw most of the demonstrator deaths, Carol.

So the world is watching and the world is also waiting for President Mubarak. Secretary Cohen there mentioned you would like to hear from the president. Well, we would also like to hear from the president, because we were told just about an hour ago that the Egyptian leader would address his people on state television.

Now, these are live images that we're seeing of Egyptian protests from Cairo, Egypt. This is an armored personnel carrier with demonstrators circling around it.

Let's listen in a little bit.

COSTELLO: I think it's amazing that people are still on the streets like this, because they've been firing tear gas. And as Ben Wedeman can attest, it's been brutal. I mean, you can hardly breathe, you can hardly speak.

GORANI: Yes. And they're defying a curfew as well that was imposed at 6:00 p.m. local time, so about an hour ago. So this is in defiance of a curfew that reports indicate was called for by the military.

And we're bringing up interesting points here regarding what impact this might have, because, yes, the military supports President Mubarak now. But if it starts appearing as though President Mubarak has been weakened to the point where the military must make a decision as to whether or not it will continue supporting the autocratic leader in Egypt, then it's a little bit of a different ballgame.

And Ben Wedeman is on the line and may have thoughts about that.

COSTELLO: Yes.

Because Ben, the military in Egypt is massive. It's huge.

WEDEMAN: Yes, it's a very big military. And I think one of the critical points to keep in mind is, at what point does the military and does the government, the state decide that in order for it to survive, to avoid a real revolution, at what point does it need to change its head of state, at what point in time does the head of state become such a lightning rod for popular discontent that it benefits --

COSTELLO: Ben, we have to interrupt.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton speaking now from Washington.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

HILLARY CLINTON, SECRETARY OF STATE: Before discussing the important matters that were part of our meeting, I would like to say something about the unfolding events in Egypt.

We continue to monitor the situation very closely. We are deeply concerned about the use of violence by Egyptian police and security forces against protesters, and we call on the Egyptian government to do everything in its power to restrain the security forces. At the same time, protesters should also are refrain from violence and express themselves peacefully.

As we have repeatedly said, we support the universal human rights of the Egyptian people, including the right to freedom of expression, of association, and of assembly. We urge the Egyptian authorities to allow peaceful protests and to reverse the unprecedented steps it has taken to cut off communications. These protests underscore that there are deep grievances within Egyptian society, and the Egyptian government needs to understand that violence will not make these grievances go away.

As President Obama said yesterday, reform is absolutely critical to the well-being of Egypt. Egypt has long been an important partner of the United States on a range of regional issues. As a partner, we strongly believe that the Egyptian government needs to engage immediately with the Egyptian people in implementing needed economic, political and social reforms.

We continue to raise with the Egyptian government, as we do with other governments in the region, the imperative for reform and greater openness and participation to provide a better future for all. We want to partner with the Egyptian people and their government to realize their aspirations to live in a democratic society that respects basic human rights.

When I was recently in the region I met with a wide range of civil society groups, and I heard from them about ideas they had that would improve their countries. The people of the Middle East like people everywhere are seeking a chance to contribute and to have a role in the decisions that will shape their lives. As I said in Doha, leaders need to respond to these aspirations and to help build that better future for all. They need to view civil society as their partner, not as a threat.

Now, there is a great deal of concern also in our government, Mr. Vice President, about the mining disaster that killed 21 miners in Colombia. And we will have our translator translate these remarks about Colombia as we go along.

I know that President Santos cut short his stay at the World Economic Forum to join --

GORANI: We'll break away there from Hillary Clinton, the secretary of state.

And we're going to take you to Jamie Rubin, the executive editor of "The Bloomberg View." He's also a former U.S. assistant secretary of state.

Jamie, thanks for being with us.

First of all, what do you make of what Hillary Clinton said from a rhetoric perspective?

JAMIE RUBIN, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, BLOOMBERG VIEW: I think the tone was just right. She made clear the United States recognizes that this is a moment not to be caught on the side just of the government, and emphasized the aspirations of the people in Egypt.

Unfortunately, I think that the administration has been (INAUDIBLE) in recent days about whether to stay out of this, the way they did in Tunisia, or not get caught behind (INAUDIBLE). And unfortunately, the mixed messages are coming through to the people on the ground, and the administration seems to be driven more by fear than strategy. They are afraid of alienating Mubarak, but they are also afraid of being behind the curve.

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Jamie, what should they say? What should they say?

RUBIN: Well, I think they should make clear that it's not just economic, political and social change. There has to be a transition in which the government of Egypt becomes a represented government. That means not supporting the move from the father to the son.

While Mubarak is thought of the next presidential candidate, it means having proper elections, it means a whole number of steps that would be supportive of democratic values. And I think so far, the administration has not been willing to cross that Rubicon for fear that Mubarak will end up in charge and we will have alienated an ally.

GORANI: And from the Arab street perspective, if you will, over the last few days we've heard a lot of anger coming from the Middle East, Jamie, as you well know, because protesters and demonstrators are saying, look, the United States gives more than a billion dollars a year in military aid to this dictatorial government. You have not come out and clearly indicated that you support those who are fighting and protesting for democracy and freedom and less repression.

So what is the net result for America and the Middle East at the end of all of this?

RUBIN: Well, I think a lot of this depends on how events unfolds in the coming days and weeks. But the key point here is that this is a tough call.

It is always hard to decide whether to support a close ally and friend like Mubarak has been, or whether to support forces on the street. But we're the United States of America, we're a country that has been built and created on democratic values. And if we're going to take a risk, I think we're always better off taking the risk that we are on the side of those pushing democratic values.

President Mubarak is not a democratic president of a democratic country. He's an authoritarian ruler who's ruled in ways from our foreign policy standpoint have been helpful to us. But if we want to stand up for what this country is all about and what people around the world expect us to be all about, we have to come down more clearly on the side of those in the streets who are fighting.

And this is not an Islamic revolution that many have feared. For now, it's a revolution generated, if it becomes a revolution from non- Islamic --

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Jamie, we're going to have to interrupt. We have to go to a break. We've very sorry. But stay with us.

We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back with continuing coverage of these protesters in Egypt.

GORANI: We were going to take a break, Carol, but of course we just heard shots fired. So that changed our plans a bit.

COSTELLO: Yes. I can't tell whether it's the shots -- because they were shooting tear gas into the crowd, and it sounded similar to that, but we don't know exactly what that was.

GORANI: This sounds a little different. I can't tell with 100 percent certainly.

COSTELLO: Do we still have Ben Wedeman on the line?

No.

GORANI: All right. We are going to -- and there are protesters, by the way. This is telling us a little bit more about what might be going on off camera there. Protesters rushing in the opposite direction of what sounded like shots being fired came from.

COSTELLO: Do we have Defense Secretary Cohen with us still? COHEN: Yes. I'm still here.

COSTELLO: OK.

From your perspective -- you're watching these pictures, you're hearing these sounds. What does it sound like to you?

COHEN: Well, from this -- from my perspective here, they sound like gunshots, but they could be the firing of tear gas. I have no way of knowing.

But just looking at the movement of the people, it looked like they were running away from those sounds. And so that may be gunfire either over their heads or toward them, and they are rushing away from it. At least that appears to be the case from my viewpoint.

COSTELLO: Let's listen some more, Secretary Cohen.

GORANI: We can confirm that that was gunfire. That was gunfire for the first time heard from our vantage point, our live position in Cairo.

COSTELLO: Of course, we don't know where the gunfire is coming from, but we do know that the Egyptian military has been on the streets there for at least an hour or two.

GORANI: These are people defying the curfew, Carol, as well. And these are people basically saying, you know, even if the military is calling on all of us to go home, barricade ourselves at home for the next 13 hours, we're not going to do it. Even though they are welcoming some of these military elements on the streets of Cairo, it's anyone guess at this point how this will evolve, because this is not just three, four days of anger. This is years and years of political and economic frustration that's boiling over.

COSTELLO: Yes. So many people are unemployed. They just want a better life. That's why they are protesting on the streets.

And Secretary Cohen, if this is real gunfire, which we believe that it is, this has taken a disturbing turn from an Egyptian perspective, and also from the perspective of the United States.

COHEN: Yes. In fact, it could turn even more violent. And the reaction to the gunfire might energize the protesters in greater numbers, with greater intensity.

So it's hard to project how this is going to play out, which is one reason why I suggest that it be important for President Mubarak to address the Egyptian people to lay out what the future is going to be in terms of meeting many, if not all, of their demands in terms of greater freedom, more democracy, greater opportunity.

I think he needs to do that in order to satisfy the people that change is going to take place. Hopefully it will take --

COSTELLO: Secretary Cohen, we're going to interrupt you because we have Ben Wedeman on the phone. And we want from him, because he's right there, more word on this gunfire.

Ben, what can you tell us?

WEDEMAN: The crowd that you saw just a while ago around the army vehicle, they have now gone behind our building, and they are attacking the police station that normally guards the Ministry of Information and the main TV building in Cairo. It appears they are shooting live rounds, in addition to lots of tear gas, that has really just inundated our office for quite some time now.

And I think this is what is inevitable when there's a breakdown in Egypt, is that much of the anger is focused on government and institutions like the Ministry of Information, like the police that have played such a central role in trying to put down, but clearly failing these protests, though you can hear that gunfire outside.

GORANI: Ben, this is Hala. Just to be clear, who is firing the shots right now, and what are protesters doing? I mean, they are in smaller numbers. We can see it there from the live images. But how are the protesters reacting to this latest development?

WEDEMAN: Well, what they are trying to do is actually ransack the police station. The firing you are hearing is coming from -- as far as we can tell, it's coming from the police, the police who have been deployed in large numbers around the Ministry of Information since these protests began on Tuesday. You may see less demonstrators in the live picture from the front of our office, but I'm at the back of our office which overlooks this police station and --

GORANI: And right now, Ben, it's a mixed bag of police, of riot police, and of the military. And clearly, demonstrators still out there on the street.

We're going to -- stand by, Ben Wedeman. We're going to get back to you in a moment.

All of these breaking developments, Carol, out of Egypt, the most populous country in the Arab world, a barometer of what the Arab street is thinking, feeling, and very often an indicator of what might happen elsewhere.

COSTELLO: It's just a shame, you know, from firing tear gas to firing real bullets. A very scary situation.

We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back with more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Updating our breaking news now, the unprecedented demonstrations erupting in Egypt.

Protesters in the street chanting in defiance of a curfew imposed in the last hour. At one location, protesters surrounded a tank deployed on the streets of Cairo. Also today, demonstrations spread to other cities, including Alexandria and Suez. The anti-government demonstrators are calling for President Hosni Mubarak to step down. We are still waiting to hear from President Mubarak, who was expected to speak about an hour ago.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called for protesters to express themselves peacefully and for the Egyptian government to allow peaceful protests and restore communication.

But, Hala, that doesn't appear to be happening.

GORANI: It does not appear to be happening. In all of my years of reporting out of Egypt, I didn't think I would ever see scenes like this unfold on the streets of Cairo, with demonstrators and protesters, A, defying a curfew, B, encircling an armored personnel carrier of the Egyptian military as it descends on to the streets of the Egyptian capital, in this significant time of change.

We are really witnessing history. And the question is, will this fizzle out? And if it doesn't fizzle out, what does it mean for the aging 82-year-old autocratic leader of Europe, Hosni Mubarak?

And you mentioned, we've been expecting him to speak for the last hour on state TV. He has not appeared.

COSTELLO: It makes you wonder, why the delay? I mean, I'm very curious about that.

Nic Robertson I believe is with us right now.

Nic, do you know the answer to that? Where is Hosni Mubarak?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's what everyone is asking, and there appear to be no answers here in downtown Alexandria, where a police station was set on fire a little while ago, government buildings were set on fire.

The situation feels a little calmer. There is absolutely no police presence, no military presence in the center of the city. There's absolutely no one observing the curfew. People -- young couples are walking around, groups of men --

GORANI: Nic, we've got to let you go for two seconds and get to Hillary Clinton, who is taking questions about the situation in Egypt.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

CLINTON: And as President Obama said yesterday very clearly, and as I said in Doha, it is absolutely vital for Egypt to embrace reform, to ensure not just its long-term stability, but also the progress and prosperity that its people richly deserve.

Now, Egypt has been a strong partner of the United States on a range of regional and strategic interests. And as a partner, we believe strongly and have expressed this consistently, that the Egyptian government needs to engage with the Egyptian people in implementing needed political, economic and social reforms. We have consistently raised this with the Egyptian government over many years. We also have raised it with other governments in the region. And there is a constant concern about the need for greater openness, greater participation on the part of the people, particularly young people, which is something I was very clear about in Doha. And we want to continue to partner with the Egyptian government and the Egyptian people.

Now, what will eventually happen in Egypt is up to Egyptians. But it is important for us to make very clear that as a partner of Egypt, we are urging that there be a restraint on the part of the security forces, there not be a rush to impose very strict measures that would be violent, and that there be a dialogue between the government and people of Egypt.

At the same time, we also would urge the protesters to engage in peaceful protests, which they have every right to do, and the deep grievances that they are raising deserve should be addressed. But the real question we're focused on is, how can we support a better future for the people of Egypt that responds to their aspirations?

And as I've said before and as the president has also said, the Egyptian government has a real opportunity in the face of this very clear demonstration of opposition to begin a process that will truly respond to the aspirations of the people of Egypt. We think that moment needs to be seized, and we are hoping that it is.

QUESTION: Madam Secretary, two points --

GORANI: All right. We're going to leave it there.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton saying that the government should begin a process of dialogue with its own people, earlier saying -- she called on the Egyptian government to refrain from violence, and protesters should also refrain from violence and express themselves peacefully.

Not taking sides there by the U.S. secretary of state. As we mentioned, Carol, so many times, a crucial ally for the United States in Hosni Mubarak. A wait-and-see approach, it seems.

COSTELLO: Yes.

We want to talk to Jamie Rubin again. He's the executive editor of Bloomberg View. He's also a former U.S. assistant secretary of state. Jamie, something Hillary Clinton just said, she said eventually what will happen to the Egyptians is up to the Egyptians. There was a clue there about how America might react to this.

RUBIN: Well, yes. I think she was in many ways stating the obvious, that the real question that all of us are wondering about is in the coming days, if these people continue to maintain these protests on the street, will the Egyptian security forces in a large mass, shoot on their own people?

And that is the pivot point for any major revolution of this kind. Will the security forces do the kind of ruthless measures that the Iranian government took last year, last spring, when the people were on the street? And so far, it's a mixed bag. Right now, you hear some reports that the security forces are avoiding violence and evacuating certain areas and in other cases, they are obviously shooting to regain their police stations that Ben Wedeman was talking about. So, that fundamental question is was what will determine the outcome in Egyptian, and it will be the Egyptians that make that decision - Egyptian security forces.

Now, interestingly, President Mubarak comes from the Egyptian military. His support comes from the military. That is different than was the case in Tunisia, where the Tunisian military was an independent institution and in the end played the crucial role in preventing the police and security forces of the Tunisian president from cracking down and stopping those protests.

So, the answer to what will happen is in Egyptian hands, as Secretary Clinton said, and it will be in the hands, really, of the security forces because it appears to me at least that the people on the ground are determined to stay in the streets, violate a curfew, take all of the measures that they can think of to regain the rights or to gain the rights that they are demanding of representative government, democratic values, and the end of this autocratic rule that has been in place for decades.

COSTELLO: Jamie, stick around. We have to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GORANI: Welcome back, everybody. It's 34 minutes past the hour. In many parts of the world, we're following breaking news out of Egypt, of course. These unprecedented -- some are calling this historic demonstrations under way. Protestors are demanding their president, Hosni Mubarak, step down after 30 years in power.

The demonstrators in Cairo are defying a curfew that was imposed last hour. Now, as we mentioned, the army has been deployed to patrol alongside the police. We heard gunshots fired not far from our live position, Carol. And we also know that the opposition figure, Mohammed ElBaradei, is now under house arrest.

And I know you're going to get us to Ben in a moment. But secretary of state Hillary Clinton, who we saw there live on CNN, expressing concern can about the situation.

COSTELLO: Yes, she was urging violence not to take place on either the demonstrators' side nor the government's side. But as we heard real gunfire not too long ago, fired from the police because apparently demonstrators are ransacking the police station in Cairo.

Nic Robertson is near that police station. Nic, what can you tell us -- I'm sorry. Let's go to Ben Wedeman first. We'll get you Nic Robertson a little later.

Ben Wedeman, we heard real gunfire. What do you see? BEN WEDEMAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Now they say that the protesters have withdrawn from the front of the police station and they are in front of the ministry where we see staff from that building running out possibly afraid for what is going to happen there.

For in fact, the last few days, the ministry of information (AUDIO GAP) -- One of the goals that the protestors were trying to reach because state television was seen very much as an organ (AUDIO GAP) that government very heavily propagandizing the situation. Egyptian television is often quite rosy about the situation in the country, although to its credit, it's been giving some fairly extensive coverage of the events of the day.

But as I said, as a symbol of the state, it's a great, big massive building, one that many Egyptians identify with the very nature of this regime.

COSTELLO: Are the crowds dispersing that at all that you can see, Ben?

WEDEMAN: Well, you know, we're so focused on this particular crowd in front of the ministry of information that it's difficult to determine what else is going on. What I can tell you, though, that apart from this crowd here, I'm not hearing the almost constant pop of tear gas being fired. We're not hearing chanting from protesters from other parts of the city.

And because, of course, communications are down everywhere, it's very hard to determine the scope of protests around the city. But certainly this one in front of the ministry of information is something that I never thought I would see.

GORANI: Hey, Ben, a few hours ago, I was asking you this question. I remember very well, I phrased it, we are seriously now talking about Egypt after Mubarak. You told me not necessarily. Have the last few hours changed your perspective on things? The military, the attack against the police station and protesters defying a curfew?

WEDEMAN: Well, I always shy away from speculating on matters like this, but - and I - several days ago that this regime is suddenly very unstable. Last night, I was on the phone chatting with Mohammed ElBaradei, and he told me, "I that this is the beginning of the end."

Is it the beginning of the end? It's hard to say. We were supposed to hear from President Mubarak well over an hour ago. He was going to address the nation on state TV. He has yet to make that statement. The arrival of the army on the scene completely changes the calculation. You now have two institutions trying to sort of impose order on this situation in Egypt. You have the police, which is widely hated, accused of brutality and excessive force and suppressing these demonstrations. On the other hand, the army. As you saw in the live pictures, widely admired, and a political institution that can step into the breach when chaos seems at the door. And, of course, I remember a year and a half ago hearing -- speaking to certain key sort of intellectuals here who said that, given the fact that there are very few options for Egyptians in terms of leadership figures around whom they can rally, the best interim solution to Egypt, impending transition -- because President Mubarak is 82 and everybody knows that he won't live forever -- the best solution for an interim government would be some sort of army control, not unlike what we've seen in Turkey where traditionally the army has stepped in.

COSTELLO: Ben, we have a bit of breaking news. State television out of Egyptian saying that the curfew has now been extended to all provinces in Egypt, but, of course, not many people were obeying the curfew anyway. So, I don't know how much effect that will have.

We're going to take a quick break, Ben. Stay with us. We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Breaking news right now out of Cairo, Egyptian. A very interesting theme developing. The protesters are actually joining the military. We don't know exactly what this means. This is a fluid scene.

Nic Robertson is in Alexandria, Egypt. Nic -- why would this be happening, Nic?

ROBERTSON (via phone): In the last 20 minutes, armored personnel carriers have come into the center of Alexandria. (INAUDIBLE). And I'm just watching another hostile (INAUDIBLE) roll in. Quote incredible, unbelievable scenes unfolding here right in front of me.

People are following into the line of (INAUDIBLE) personal carriers, waving at the soldiers and when the soldiers got out of their vehicles, the police were patting them on the back. Everyone is appealing to the soldiers. They are all in this protest together. They are all on the same side. And the way that the soldiers are responding, they are smiling at the crowds, allowing them to sort of pat them on their back and hold them in their arms. It's quite an incredible scene. The army has been put on the streets. So, rather than the people running away, they are literally embracing them --

COSTELLO: So, Nic, the same sort of scene is unfolding in Alexandria. We have live pictures in Cairo that are showing the exact same thing. What might this mean as far as Hosni Mubarak is concerned?

ROBERTSON: Right now, it means that the people are trying to diffuse his efforts to establish an authoritarian rule on the streets after the police appear to have failed in that job. They seem to be diffusing it by embracing the army rather than facing optimism (ph) as they were before. Perhaps recognizing that the army aren't here to try and crush them, merely to put some order on to the street. Before the army came, what was interesting about this situation, it was almost a vacuum where no one controlled the (INAUDIBLE) and it gave the impression that it wasn't clear who was making the decisions about security here. And that almost there was a feeling of indecision about the situation.

GORANI: Nic, we're going to go to Frederik Pleitgen. He's outside of the information ministry in Cairo with more on what's happening at ground level in the Egyptian capitol.

Fred, what can you tell us?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Hi, Ali (ph).

I'm in front of the information ministry here on the ground. And what just happened is that a couple of seconds ago a lot of armored military personnel (INAUDIBLE). There's a (INAUDIBLE) in front of the information ministry. I'd say it's about seven or eight, probably. This is a blocked (ph) entrance (INAUDIBLE) here in front of this building. They were sort of on the fence until the -- until a couple of minutes now. And now that (INAUDIBLE) going around the armored personnel carriers. And the people here are actually greeting the military. There's no animosity whatsoever between the people and the military as we've seen just a couple of moments before when we had been on, when the people (INAUDIBLE) that armored personnel carrier.

The people here are actually chanting, the army and the people we are one. They're taking pictures of the military officers that are talking quite nicely to them, actually. So it doesn't -- it doesn't seem like right now there's a lot of aggressiveness in the air as it was before, what we've seen before. The military having a calming effect.

Now it's not clear whether or not the military is on their side or whether the people believe the military is on their side, but it seems to be somewhat diffusing the situation a little bit. The people are sort of moving on right now. There's some (INAUDIBLE) from the information ministry towards the (INAUDIBLE) ministry. Right in front of these military vehicles.

GORANI: OK. Hey --

PLEITGEN: Some of the soldiers seems to be positioning themselves on the military vehicles. People are waving Egyptian flags. It really is a remarkable scene that we're seeing here, how the people are greeting these soldiers.

Hala.

GORANI: Right. And it's going to be interesting to see also, Carol, the ordinary Egyptians greeting the military there quite happily. Perhaps an indication of the actual aspiration with the civilian isocracy (ph) that they consider the military to be a better option. I know the area around the information ministry there. It's right there on the cornish (ph) danil (ph) with the view of the Nile. And I can only imagine -- we're not seeing those images right now -- but I can only imagine the kind of -- it seems as though it's a kind of a carnival atmosphere with protesters and the military.

COSTELLO: It's just a strange development from an American perspective because the military was out there to quell the protestors and now they've sort of joined forces. Hosni Mubarak was supposed to speak, what, an hour and a half ago now? He hasn't appeared. So it kind of makes you wonder what the dynamic is here exactly.

GORANI: Yes. Well, we were, of course, about an hour and a half ago, expecting the Egyptian president to address his patriots on state television. He is a no-show right now. We don't know where he is. We don't know the reason for the delay. And, most importantly, we don't know really what the next few hours are going to bring with all of the Egyptians, and there are thousands, out on the streets.

COSTELLO: But isn't it possible that the military could take over the government? I guess that's what I'm getting at.

GORANI: It is extremely possible. In fact, Fareed Zakaria is in Davos, the host of "Fareed Zakaria GPS."

What are your thoughts, Fareed, as we watch this unfold with the military being greeted by ordinary Egyptian protestors so warmly? Fareed, can you hear me?

FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS": Yes, barely.

GORANI: Yes, what are your thoughts? What are your thoughts, Fareed, as you watch these ordinary Egyptian protesters in the streets of the Egyptian capital greeting the military so warmly?

ZAKARIA: Well, the Egyptian military is probably the oldest, most well functions institution in Egypt. Egypt has had a long tradition of a very strong state. What we are watching is quite incredible because this is the oldest society in the Arab world with a deep and sophisticated culture, with an authentic middle class, and it is also the oldest state with a very long tradition of administrative control and a very powerful military. And the two -- you know, we're trying -- both sides are trying to test the other to see which will give.

GORANI: And it's interesting, Fareed, because what could be a post-Mubarak scenario for Egypt and what role would the military play in that post-Mubarak scenario?

ZAKARIA: Well, I think that any scenario post-Mubarak is going to involve the military, because the military, in a sense, holds the country together. They will have to support whatever processes were put in place.

My guess is that they are going to want to play a role that is behind the scenes, not right in front. I think somebody mentioned, I think it was Nic, something like the Turkish military. But the key issue here right now is, what is Hosni Mubarak thinking. Because he had the opportunity a year ago to decide to peacefully begin a political evolution. He decided not to do that and he had given every indication that he was going to run for re-election at 82 and ailing. That sent a signal to the entire society that they were in for another decade, potentially, of this dictatorship backed by military and that, I think, killed the sense that Egyptian was evolving because there had been reform, there had been opening. And so there was a kind of rising expectations that Mubarak crushed. The question is, is it too late now for him to go back and try to provide some scenario for political reform which would prevent some kind of a revolution.

COSTELLO: Fareed --

GORANI: The question -- I'm sorry. Go ahead.

COSTELLO: Fareed, this is Carol Costello. I was just wondering, because we have heard that his son might take over a leadership role but we believe his family has now fled the country and they're in London. So what do you make of that?

ZAKARIA: What I had heard is that his son was already in London and has stayed there. I'm not sure what to make of it. I would be surprised if Mubarak has fled because, you know, it would seem more likely that he will try and do something, to broker some kind of a deal. But in any event, the decision still remains his, whether he's in London or in Cairo, my suspicion is he's in Cairo, and he is going to have to decide whether he can get in front of this change or whether he's going to be dragged, kicking and screaming.

GORANI: Yes, that is the question. Thanks very much, Fareed Zakaria, as we potentially might hear from Hosni Mubarak himself.

The question, Carol, is, if Hosni Mubarak speaks, who is left to listen to him really right now in Egypt.

COSTELLO: That's right. They're seemingly all on the streets and doing their own thing.

GORANI: And how much credibility does he retain?

We're going to take a short break and we will both be right back with our live coverage of the demonstrations in Egypt.

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COSTELLO: I'm Carol Costello, along with Hala Gorani. We're following developing news out of Cairo, Egypt, out of Alexandria, and also Suez (ph), as protesters continue to demonstrate in the streets despite a curfew that's now been imposed for an hour or so.

GORANI: Yes, almost a -- almost a couple of hours until 7:00 a.m. local imposed on all provinces. But as we've been witnessing, Carol, over the last few hours, it doesn't seem like many people are respecting this curfew, on the contrary, and we've had this major development of the military hitting the streets of Cairo and Alexandria and protesters seemingly embracing the military.

COSTELLO: Yes, patting members of the military on the back, running alongside their armored personnel carriers and their tanks. Ben Wedeman is in the thick of it.

Ben, what are you seeing?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, what we're seeing now is a fairly large crowd chanting in front of the ministry of information and state television. But no clashes. There's no tear gas being fired at the moment. The army drove by about 15 to 20 minutes ago with about five or six large armored personnel carriers and Jeeps as well. I think they deployed on the far side of the state television building.

The crowd, we were expecting, we were thinking that they might try to storm the ministry of information and state television, but now they just seem to be chanting outside. And looking over at this bridge, which was the scene of a lot of running battles between the protesters and the police, there's cars up there. It's much quieter. And you're not hearing an tear gas being fired. So it seems all the action is in front of the ministry of information.

COSTELLO: Ben Wedeman, many thanks for your fine reporting from Cairo. It's must been amazing. And I know under rough circumstances as well.

GORANI: Absolutely. They have been roughed up today. Their camera was confiscated. They've had to do their work through clouds of tear gas, all of our crew on the ground, and indeed all journalists there.

It was great anchoring with you, Carol. I'm going to stay on. My colleague, Jim Clancy, is coming in.

COSTELLO: Yes, but I will depart. And thank you so much for staying with us. We'll be back, though, right after this break.

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