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At Least 31 Reported Killed in Alexandria; Security Breakdown in Egypt, Citizens Protecting their Own Property
Aired January 29, 2011 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'd like to welcome our viewers from around the world. This is CNN's special coverage of the crisis engulfing the Middle East. Our focus tonight of course increasingly volatile situation in Egypt and the changes we are seeing in that government. I'm Don Lemon.
JOHN VAUSE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Yes, hello, I'm John Vause from CNN International and we have a big hour ahead.
LEMON: And we certainly do Anti-Mubarak protests in Egypt have now spread to the U.S. and other countries. And we'll going to show you all of that. Listen to this.
Impassioned Egyptian Americans gathered in Washington today calling for the removal of Egypt's president. They rallied first at the Egyptian embassy and then march to the White House. Inside the White House, President Barack Obama huddled with his national security team to discuss the crisis in Egypt. There's a lot at stake for the U.S. because Egypt has been one of America's biggest Arab allies in the Middle East.
VAUSE: You can see on the protest videos and iReports from all over including Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, Switzerland and Canada. You will see and hear from the people in those places throughout our coverage tonight.
LEMON: And John, in Egypt it is now midnight but it's been a long and volatile day of demonstrators calling. Demonstrators calling for the removal of President Mubarak. Police have largely left the streets now, but they have been replaced by Egyptian military.
VAUSE: Social order and security have collapsed across Egypt's largest cities. Dozens of people have died. Looting and lawlessness are rampant. Without police many shop keepers are arming themselves to protect their stores from looters. The same for those who live in their homes. The ancient port city of Alexandria is also in the crosshairs.
LEMON: CNN Senior International Correspondent Nic Robertson has been in the thick of it all day, he joins us now. Nic, there's a curfew in place. Are there still protesters out there? What's the situation?
NIC ROBERTSON, SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's a very different situation to last night, John, where you still had a lot of people on the streets and a lot of traffic at this time of night. Curfew has been in place eight hours. And I would say for the last two or three hours, the streets have been very, very quiet. You see just maybe one or two or three people walking around. The odd car going along. What's different about those people walking through the streets when you see them now, if you see a group of two or three men or even an individual man that I saw walking along there just now, they'll be carrying a stick. A lot of people are carrying sticks with them now because there are no police and they're afraid about their own security out here on the streets. Huge protests through the day, but now it's very, very quiet. Looking behind me along the Cornish, which was just jammed with protesters marching up and down earlier on -- John.
VAUSE: Nic, it seems that something has essentially changed over the last few hours. When you were out on the streets earlier today, it seemed all very friendly, the people were chanting. But as night has fallen, these looters have come out on the street, it has become a very dangerous situation. How would you assess it going forward, what will you see in the next couple of hours, as daylight comes up?
ROBERTSON: You know, it's very hard to tell. Just as you're speaking to me there, if heard three shots go off in the distance behind me down there. And I can hear men shouting and I can hear things tumbling to the ground. What's going to frustrate the crowds here is that they want President Mubarak to step down. But how do they do it? They march up and down the streets, they have heard from him on television. What about what they're doing today is actually going to bring him down? He's already proposing people to fill senior leadership positions who the people in the streets has say are part of the problem.
So you can see that the frustration on the streets here will grow. The potential for the handful of soldiers who are out here essentially providing security around some government buildings, the potential to come into conflict with them if the crowd decides to storm the presidential palace here or go into some government building, the soldiers are going to have to choose do they shoot or do they not? And at the moment, the soldiers seem relaxed and not prepared to take the crowds on. But I told you, one former general here today who told me that the army had a plan. This was the plan that he understood when he was a general in the army here and that is that the army is to protect the president and not the people. And that is the choice they might make. So although that doesn't seem immediately apparent today, I think we'll going to see the frustrations grow and people to us avowing that they will come out every day and continue this protest -- John.
VAUSE: Yes, of course tomorrow, Sunday, the start of the working week in Egypt. That will be crucial, because we've seen these protests grow over the last couple of days in size. But whether or not they continue to grow when people have got to go back to work, when schools are reopened and whether this momentum continues. Possibly in all of this Hosni Mubarak is gambling that these people will simply give up, that they will ultimately, they might peacefully though go back to their homes and life can continue on as it has. Is that a possibility there?
VAUSE: It doesn't seem like a possibility at the moment. Just where I was hearing those shots back over my shoulder over here just a few minutes ago as we were talking, I can now hear somebody speaking on a megaphone on hella. Clearly it seems addressing the people in that area. I'm not quite sure, I can't really hear what's being said, so I'm not quite sure what they're being told. But I think what the people have tasted here is the sense that they have a voice and that they can have an impact. And they believe that if they continue with that, then they're going to achieve what they want. Will they go back home and settle for less? That's not what they're saying right now. More than 31 people have died in this city already.
People are very angry, very frustrated, and it doesn't seem that that can easily, if you will, be put back in the box. Having said that, some people have told us they are very worried about what's going to happen to security. Neighborhood watches are in force here, shops are boarded up. People are worried now without the police, there's a vacuum of security. There's no law and order. So that's going to guide some people. But as you see in these demonstrations, it's the loud, angry voices that come out and want to stay out. Some of them you can tell are spoiling for a fight. We've seen today more presence of the Muslim brotherhood here providing control on these demonstrations. They lack leadership so far and that means they may diffuse if you suggest. But if they find leadership, that will give them focus and purpose -- John.
VAUSE: Nic, thank you. Nic Robertson, our CNN International correspondent there, reporting live from Alexandria. And Don, in all of this, of course, the key will be what the military does. Will they defend those buildings? Will they turn on the people? Because this will be a key test to what happens next.
LEMON: And the key, of course, what Mubarak eventually does. He's saying, he's not going anywhere now, but you know, as we've been reporting here on CNN all day, many carriers have not been able to go in or out. They have restricted air flights to and from Cairo.
Joining me now on the phone is Helen Sinn, she's an American, she is in the airport in Cairo, she is from Michigan. Are you having any luck getting out Ms. Sinn?
HELEN SINN, AMERICAN TOURIST STRANDED AT CAIRO (on the phone): We're hoping that a van is coming in about five minutes. We're lucky enough to have stayed at the Fairmont Hotel last night. We are told to stay on the -- Marriot but that was cancelled, so they put us to Fairmont, we thought we were getting out but we were cancelled. And a van is supposed to be coming from the Fairmont to pick us up. But -- so, who knows?
LEMON: OK. So what are they telling you, what are you hearing about -- are you for sure that you're going to get out? You said that you're hoping.
SINN: That's correct, because until he actually arrives here, I guess we're hoping. But this van from the Fairmont, which is five minutes from the airport, is supposed to come. We just called the security guy in the van and there are military -- there's a blockade that stops you, but he is able to get through. So, that's why we're hoping that we're still going to get back to the hotel.
LEMON: Give us a sense of what it's like to be there for people who are waiting where you are?
SINN: Well, it's not going to be easy. When we came in here at 6:00 to check in, our flight was not -- very few flights were cancelled and it was just like any other day. And now it is an absolute zoo. Every single floor, everybody is waiting everywhere. You know, on the floor sleeping, everything. Being from Michigan, we often, you know, flights out of Chicago would be cancelled because of weather and we saw this on TV, but I've never seen it in person before where, you know, people are just sitting and laying and sleeping and all the food is gone, everything. It took us five hours to get our bags, literally five hours because it was in that, you know, on the way to Nairobi or I mean, in the hold and it took us five hours to get the luggage out of the hold. And nobody knew how to get there and it was just chaos. I mean total chaos I guess is all I can say.
LEMON: Well, Helen Sinn, we wish you the best of luck as many people are stranded as well. Good luck to you and John, you know, it's...
SINN: Well, that's it. I mean, everybody and of course even the people that work here, they're the local people and they're worried. Yes, it is really something.
LEMON: Yes.
SINN: More than I ever dreamed. So we were supposed to go on to Nairobi to go on a safari for a week, but I think we're going to try to...
LEMON: To go back home.
SINN: ...well, the flight is cancelled. Yes.
LEMON: Yes. Well, Helen, listen, we've got to run but thank you very much. And again, a lot of people are dealing with what she is dealing with and that gives us sort of, you know, a slice of...
VAUSE: People trying to get out of that country right now apparently when the U.S., France, Germany, amongst others said stop all non- essential travel. About 1500 people descended on the airport. Helen is one of them. We spoke to a woman the last hour just trying to get a flight anywhere.
LEMON: And you know what? She brings up a very good point, because I've never seen anything like this. As I was talking to some Egyptian-Americans here in Atlanta last night and they were saying, you know, we go to the grocery store and we get, you know, bread and milk and it takes a minute. You have to wait in cue or wait in line there for sometimes hours if you can get in the way. So just the inconvenience to an American is like, wow, what's going on?
VAUSE: Yes. It's a real experience, which they probably wish they did not have.
LEMON: Yes.
VAUSE: Well, Facebook, Twitter, text messaging, they've all played a role in these protests in Egypt and other places despite efforts to shut them down.
LEMON: Yes. And also, why does Egypt matter in the global landscape, and what could this crisis mean for the future of the Mideast region? Former U.S. Defense Secretary William Cohen will answer those questions for you and for us. And I'm online, I know you are too, John Vause is as well. What's your twitter?
VAUSE: Vausecnn.
LEMON: Yes. You can send us at Vause CNN or at donlemoncnn and we will take -- if you have some pictures or information of what's happening overseas, especially in Egypt, send them to us. We're back in a moment.
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UNIDENTIFIED MAN: This time I think two men is dying this square, with all these people, need just freedom.
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LEMON: Welcome back, everyone, to our coverage here. The uprisings in Egypt have made the White House take a close look at its relationship with a critical ally. And political watchers have noted the U.S. has to tread carefully because of Egypt's key role in American Middle Eastern relationships.
VAUSE: Yes. And to help us better understand all of that, former Defense Secretary William Cohen joins us now from our Washington bureau. Mr. Secretary, thank you for joining us.
WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: Great to be with you.
VAUSE: Just tell us how important is Egypt to the United States?
COHEN: Well, it's critical to stability in the region. For example, the Egyptian government, President Mubarak, has been a stalwart in promoting better relations between Israel and Egypt. They have a treaty. It's a cool peace, as we say, but nonetheless it is a peaceful relationship. Egypt has been in the forefront of trying to stop the flow of weapons going into Gaza coming through Egyptian territory. It's been in the forefront of trying to prevent Iran from going forward with a nuclear program. And so it has been very important to the United States at a strategic level.
And so, that's the balance that the United States has had to tried to keep and to walk that fine line by expressing our support for democratic freedoms, so more personal freedom, more political freedom in Egypt but at the same time, not wanting to see an element take place or a regime take over that would be adverse to our interests and to those of the entire region. Other countries are watching.
VAUSE: And how likely is it that, you know, whoever replaces Mubarak, be it the Muslim brotherhood or some other kind of Islamic government, would that -- how much of a danger would that pose? And is it really a possibility that the Muslim brotherhood could take over?
COHEN: Well, it's a possibility. It may be remote at this point. It may be that the military, should it come to that, would exert its influence and make sure that the Muslim brotherhood didn't take over. But should the Muslim brotherhood or other groups take over, Israel has to be very concerned. If they look to Iran, they see Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the people who want to destroy that country. If you then look to Lebanon, you see Hezbollah having very much become in charge in that country. If you look at Gaza, you have Hamas. And if you look to Egypt and see a country that was then determined to break the treaty to treat Israel as an enemy, then you have to be very concerned about stability throughout the entire region.
LEMON: And you said, we had a long conversation yesterday, Mr. Secretary. And in the past 24 hours as you're watching this and saw Mubarak yesterday saying, I asked my government to resign but I'm not going anywhere, your perspective over the last 24 hours, has anything changed in what you -- how you view this story?
COHEN: Well, President Mubarak has tried to say he's open to change by appointing for the first time a vice president, even though that is his -- basically his intelligence expert, an individual who's been with him for many, many years. To say he's forming a new cabinet, that indicates some flexibility. But surely that's not going to satisfy those who are in the streets. The administration has called upon President Mubarak to open up the process to allow for more freedom, to promote democratic and open and monitored elections.
LEMON: Do you think, though, that he is going to go anywhere whether he wants to or not? Do you think in any sense that he can be forced out? What's next here?
COHEN: I think it really depends upon the support of the military. This is not something that we can do in the United States. Only the military in Egypt, the people in Egypt and the president, that relationship is going to unfold with amongst themselves and not by directive from the United States. I think that the military is the key. If they support President Mubarak and what his directives are, that will change the dynamic, I think, on the ground. Right now the people see the military as being with them.
The military is playing it quite cool, as a matter of fact, and that may be the calming effect they were seeking to achieve. That they may also be calculating that if they were to use force, the reverence that the people have for them might change and over time the military would not be viewed in such a positive light so they may be calculating that as well. We simply don't know at this point. Right now, what we have trough is keep watching, and hoping that it all resolves itself peacefully and there we see if there's going to be a transition that take place in an evolutionary way, and not in a violent way that leaves a vacuum of leadership and things chaotic.
LEMON: We're going to have to leave it there. Former Secretary of Defense, William Cohen, thank you. And William Cohen is going to join us tomorrow evening at 6:00 p.m. to see where it's gone 24 hours from now. Thanks again, Secretary Cohen.
COHEN: Good to be with you.
VAUSE: OK. Well, protesters across Egypt, they're making their voices heard beyond their borders. We're looking at the messages that they're sending out via social media.
LEMON: And Don, also looters taking advantage of the call for social change. They're riding motorcycles around the city and they're carrying samurai swords.
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LEMON: All right. Here in the U.S., just a week from now, the Super Bowl. But if you're thinking about running out to get a new high def TV for your Super Bowl party, well, you might want to think twice. Christine Romans reports.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Timing is everything, especially when it comes to shopping. Now is not the time to buy that brand new television you've been eyeing, but there are some items you can get great deals on right now. We're talking gas grills, air conditioners and off season sporting equipment like bikes. Prices usually go up as the weather gets warmer so plan ahead and buy now. As for the television set, you're going to have to wait until the spring to get the best price say the folks over at lifehacker.com. Many Japanese manufacturers end their fiscal year in March, so there's usually a push in the spring to move out last year's models and boost company sales in the new quarter.
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ADAM PASH, EDITOR IN CHIEF, LIFEHACHER.COM: April is actually a great time to buy a new TV, especially if you don't need the latest and greatest. You can get really good discounts on last year's models.
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ROMANS: April is also the cheapest time to book and take a cruise. And later in the spring, you can get great deals on gym memberships as the weather gets nicer and people wanting to go outdoors. In the summer, look for sales on appliances and furniture, especially over holiday weekends. Also wine is often cheaper in late summer before the harvest. Prices pick up later in the fall. Now, you want to wait for the fall to buy a new car. By September new models arrive and dealers need to unload the current year's models. Late fall is the best time to buy anything related to a wedding, especially dresses, because fewer people get married in December and the winter months. Of course if you're a smart shopper with a lot of time on your hands, you can find deals and sales on different items throughout the year, you just have to do a little homework. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: What's happened to our president? He said I will change everything. We don't want him. He's the one -- he should go out. We don't want him here because he's responsible about all this here.
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VAUSE: You know, Don, a week ago that woman would never have said that. Welcome back to our continuing coverage of the crisis in Egypt. It's clear the government there understands how crucial the internet can be in organizing dissention. Web access has been blocked entirely in parts of the country.
LEMON: But still social media has allowed protest coordinators to communicate.
Our Josh Levs is here with more on the impact of technology on the protests. He's here live. Josh, we saw it with Iran, we've seen it with other uprisings, it really plays a big role.
JOSH LEVS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And, and you put your finger on it right there when you talk about Iran. That's a really important backdrop to understand here. You know, just minutes ago I was reading you some of the tweets that have been flying around about what's going on in Iran right now. And we're getting great incremental details from all of our folks on the ground. What I'd like to do for you now is going to pull back a little bit, stare at the globe and just think about how technology has changed everything and how technology has changed what it is to have a revolt in our era. Let's go to some of this video as we talk this out.
You know, part of what happened is every government in the world saw back in 2009 when there were protests in Iran and Iran tried to clamp out basically all interactivity, all internet and social media, but some things still managed to squeak out. And those things that got out were amplified all over the world. That is in a way a lesson to every country in the world. And what we have been seeing in Egypt in recent days has some similarities. You know, you have all these protests that have taken off. There's a lot that's different between Egypt and Iran. But you have these protests on the streets and you did have all of a sudden a disappearance in a lot of ways of the ability to use the internet and that's where this chart comes in that we can zoom in on quickly.
I want to talk to you all a little bit about it. Because we have this up right now for you at cnn.com in our technology section. And what it does is it shows you internet activity in Egypt each day and then it shows you what happened and the 27th when all of a sudden boom, it's basically gone to this tiny little trickled way down here. There are two things to understand about this and we can talk this out as we go back to some of that video. One is even with that little trickle going on, it gets amplified all over the world. So those people out there who were managing to get out tweets, YouTube videos, iReports that they sent to us, people all over the world were then sharing them.
And this is a sign that no matter how hard some government might try, it's impossible in this era to completely block out that kind of internet access. What gets out will be amplified. The other point to understand really important is technology inside Egypt. Most Egyptians are not facebooking and tweeting. Lots don't have that access. But huge numbers of Egyptians have cell phones. And when cell phone service was knocked out, that can have a huge impact and people inside the country finding out what's going on. When we report to you that now we are learning that cell phones are working again, a lot of people are able to text, that's very significant for how technology is impacting the state of these protests inside the country right now.
So John and Don, this is something we're keeping an eye on. What kind of technology to people on the ground have access to any given moment? How is it impacting them getting their message out to the world and how is it impacting organizing inside the country itself?
VAUSE: All right. OK, Josh. At one point, 25 percent of the country to the internet, 90 percent have access to a cell phone.
LEMON: Yes. There you go. In talking to people today, finally some of them were able to get in touch with their family members and friends but they said, through hard, you know, hard line phone was the only way they could do it, so.
VAUSE: Well, supporters have changed, they're making their voices heard even outside Egypt. Protesters have gathered in cities around the world today to show their support for change.
LEMON: And protesters even gathered outside the CNN's world headquarters right here in Atlanta. And I walked through the crowd and I spoke to many of them to get their thoughts on what's happening in their homeland. We'll take you there next.
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UNIDENTIFIED EGYPTIAN MALE: It's like the light at the end of the tunnel. It's something we've always wanted, something we've been hoping for so it can't come soon enough.
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JOHN VAUSE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Solidarity with Egyptian protesters in cities around the world. In New York, hundreds gathered outside the United Nations to show their support. They shouted slogans and carried signs, but the rally was a peaceful one.
In Washington, a similar scene of protests outside the Egyptian embassy. This crowd was particularly angry over the U.S. government's long relationship with Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak. In London, two separate protests outside the Egyptian embassy there. Both sides want Mubarak out, but one side wants to see an Islamic government and Islamic law installed in his place.
And in Switzerland, one of our iReporters sent in this video from Geneva. As many as 150 people turned out in sympathy for the Egyptians. This was one of many protests today organized through Facebook.
DON LEMON, CNN NEWS ANCHOR: Thank you, John.
For Egyptian Americans, a crisis in their homeland is unnerving to watch. Dr. Michael Usef came to the U.S. from Egypt in 1977. He now leads an international Christian broadcast ministry, "Leading the Way with Dr. Michael Usef," that's what it's called.
Thanks for joining us. Have you heard from your family?
DR. MICHAEL USEF, CHRISTIAN BROADCAST MINISTRY: Yes, I did call today and talked with my family members in Cairo, which is a very, very unnerved by the looting, which is happening in shops and banks and now young men are standing with sticks in front of their buildings to protect their families and their money.
LEMON: Everyone is OK?
USEF: Everybody is fine, yes.
LEMON: Everyone is OK. But this is led largely by the youth. This is a youth-led protest.
USEF: Right.
LEMON: An uprising.
USEF: Right. Depending who's using the youth.
LEMON: Why do you say that? Using the youth?
USEF: That's right.
LEMON: You believe some of them may be using them as a front?
USEF: Oh, no question. Now, I will not deny that there is a frustration. I go to Egypt every year and I preach all over Egypt, from the south to the north to Alexandria to Cairo. I'm there all the time. And I have many friends in the government. I have many friends in the churches, church leaders. And there's no doubt about it, the frustration is there, the lack of jobs and inflation and everything else. So there are genuine people who are doing this, but there are some who are standing behind the scene, no doubt in my mind. And there are groups within the Muslim Brotherhood, probably not all of the Muslim Brotherhood, but certainly there are groups within the Muslim Brotherhood who are mad at Mubarak for several things, because he shut them out of the election. He said you cannot have a political party that's religious. And they literally had no seats in parliament. Secondly, he allowed a quota for women to be elected, seats only for women and they did not like that.
LEMON: So I think what you're saying is that there are groups who are watching the youth, the protesters, and if the protesters get their way and overthrow the government, let's say, then they will come in and take over for those people and then they will be in power.
USEF: Of course.
LEMON: And maybe not do much better than what Mubarak has done.
USEF: They'll be far worse. Mubarak at least, when you look at Egypt today and the economy, it grew by 6.5 percent. That's better than the U.S.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: That's what happened in Iran. Is that what happened in Iran?
USEF: That's what happened in Iran in 1978 and '79. Genuine freedom- loving young people took to the streets. The demonstrations was day in and day out until the shah left. Khomeini comes in. Some of the older ones will remember Abu Hassan Ben Al Sadr, who was the articulate English-speaking secular scholar, who was made prime minister. And then, as soon as Khomeini took over power, he killed all of those secular western-educated people that he put up front until the movement has achieved its goal in getting rid of the shah.
LEMON: But that's your concern? That's worst case scenario? That doesn't mean that these people should not be protesting for what they believe is a democracy and a fair election process.
USEF: No, I think they should protest but they should protest also peacefully. I mean these lootings and grabbing for stuff and the prisoners, of course, taking advantage of that and some rioting in prisons.
LEMON: You say that. Always when there's unrest there's going to be people who will be out of control and there will be elements who will do that. But for the most part when I speak with people who have spoken to and been in touch with their loved ones, they say they don't want to tear down their country. What they want to do -- they're trying to protect it in many ways, but there are people who are doing it just because, and there may be elements who are watching these people who are doing it so that they can be viewed as doing a bad thing.
USEF: I have no doubt in my mind there are genuine people, Christians and Muslims, who are -- who want to see a change. They want to see democracy. There's no doubt in my mind. But unfortunately the infrastructure does not lend itself for that yet. And I believe that Mubarak was really working on a transition by which he can continue the process -- look, he learned from two predecessors. Nassir put them in prison, Sadat set them free and they both paid a price. So he was kind of trying to walk a tight rope. I'm not saying -- I'm not defending him. I'm not here to defend the Mubarak regime, not in any sense of the word. LEMON: Well, thank you. I appreciate your perspective.
USEF: Absolutely.
LEMON: Dr. Michael Usef, thanks.
John?
VAUSE: John, it's after midnight right now in Cairo, but scenes like this are making it a sleepless night for many. We'll take you there live after this.
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LEMON: Welcome back to our international coverage of the crisis in Egypt. I'm Don Lemon.
VAUSE: I'm John Vause from "CNN International."
LEMON: And anti-Mubarak protests in Egypt have now spread to the U.S. and other countries. Take a look.
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VAUSE: Impassioned Egyptian Americans gathered in Washington today calling for the removal of Egypt's president Mubarak. They rallied first at the Egyptian embassy and then march to the White House.
Inside the White House President Obama huddled with his national security team to discuss this crisis. There's a lot at stake for the U.S. because Egypt has been one of America's biggest allies in the Middle East.
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LEMON: We're getting similar reports and iReports from all over, including Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, Switzerland and Canada. You will see and hear from the people in those places throughout our coverage tonight here on CNN.
VAUSE: In Egypt it's now after midnight, but it's been a long, and volatile day and demonstrators calling for the removal of President Mubarak. Police have largely left the streets, replaced by the Egyptian military.
LEMON: And, John, social order and security have collapsed across Egypt's largest cities. Dozens of people have died. Looting and lawlessness are rampant. Without police, many shop keepers are arming themselves to protect their stores from looters.
VAUSE: So let's go right now to Ivan Watson in Cairo.
Ivan, after midnight, we've been saying a curfew still in place. Are there many people on the streets?
IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, no, it has quite thinned out quite a bit. We're approaching 1:00 a.m. But there still are pockets of men out in the streets. I'm looking across Liberation Square where there are fires burning, presumably people trying to keep warm, some of the demonstrators, and they still come around in pockets and they're cheering. We're also seeing a lot of military vehicles rolling around, doing some kind of patrols from time to time.
Earlier in the day, there were real scenes of elation here in downtown Cairo. Take a listen to what one of the demonstrators had to say.
UNIDENTIFIED EGYPTIAN FEMALE: What's happened to our president? He said I will change everything. We don't want him. He's the one -- he should go out, we don't want him here because he's responsible about all of this here. I live here, I feel everything. It's difficult for me. 43 years, (INAUDIBLE), I feel it's easy life. Here it's very difficult for us.
(on camera): Are you happy today?
UNIDENTIFIED EGYPTIAN FEMALE: I am happy because everybody -- there is a man here. Before, I told, there is no men in Egypt. Now when I saw all this, I feel, yes, we can change. We don't want Hosni Mubarak. We don't want him.
WATSON: And, John, there's an interesting combination where you hear this intense frustration, this intense hatred and anger directed at the regime, and then, at the same time, a celebratory feeling of joy and pride that the people are rising up and saying no to a government that they claim has been oppressing them.
But it hasn't all been a big party today. We've seen scenes of violence and blood. I saw a number of men being treated with bullet wounds, rubber bullet wounds at the doorstep of a mosque that had been turned into a makeshift clinic. These men had all said that they were shot while trying to advance on the headquarters of the interior ministry here in Cairo. And we also saw one man who a bystander said had actually been killed by fire directed by several dozen policemen still protecting the perimeter of that interior ministry headquarters. Of course, people grieving at the loss of their friends and loved ones just a few blocks from where people were celebrating and chanting and celebrating being Egyptian.
Take a listen to what one man had to say to us.
What happened?
UNIDENTIFIED EGYPTIAN MALE: Someone killed -- Mubarak, Mubarak, the son of -- die. The crowd, but also Egyptian (INAUDIBLE).
WATSON: What happened there?
UNIDENTIFIED EGYPTIAN MALE: After the square -- after the square --
WATSON: And, of course, this is an emotional roller coaster with scenes of joy and grief and tragedy. And no one knows where this is going to take the country next -- John?
VAUSE: John, thank you.
Ivan Watson on the line there for us from Cairo.
Don, the death toll, standing around 38 now. It could be a lot higher. No one really knows. It's going to be a few days before we really find out.
LEMON: Yes. Emotions are so raw, sometimes it's hard to watch.
But that is what's happening and that's what we're showing you here.
The crisis in Egypt. Is this a revolution or simply a period of unrest? We're asking a professor of Mideast history.
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UNIDENTIFIED EGYPTIAN MALE: We want Mubarak to get out. Get out, Mubarak. Get out of Egypt. We don't -- we don't need you. We don't -- we don't want you here in Egypt. Get out.
UNIDENTIFIED EGYPTIAN MALE: Go Mubarak! Go Mubarak! (INAUDIBLE). Go Murbarak!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: You've seen the protests, you've seen violence, you've seen the burning, but there are people who are actually trying to save especially some of the landmarks, if you will, in Egypt.
VAUSE: Yes, there's been reports of looting of houses and shops and stores. One of the incredible stories were the average Egyptian citizens who came out, locked arms to protect the National Museum that's home to the King Tut, that kind of stuff.
Mary Rogers went out there earlier today. She went out there a short time ago. She's our photojournalist in Cairo. She joins us on the line right now.
Mary, good to talk to you. What's the latest? What have you seen when you went out and about?
MARY ROGERS, CNN PHOTOJOURNALIST: Well, when I went out earlier this evening, because there were rumors the Egyptian museum was being looted, I found what I saw earlier today, which was tanks surrounded the museum. There were even soldiers inside the garden, past the big gates, you know, standing on big stone monuments out there. But underneath the tanks, outside the gates of the museum, are civilians, arm in arm, who are in solidarity with the military, you know, wanting to protect Egypt's treasures. The Egyptian museum has King Tut and great antiquity treasures. It's some of Egypt's greatest treasures.
VAUSE: And when you saw these people speaking with the military, sort of arm in arm, what was the mood like?
ROGERS: The mood in the square today was sort of very euphoric. It was like a lovefest down there. It was ironic, John, because blocks away, there was a gun battle going on right off Tahrir Square. People trying to approach the interior ministry. But the mood in the square was happy.
VAUSE: Yes. And the situation now, it's fairly calm on the streets. There is a curfew in place.
That was Mary Rogers on the phone, telling us about the situation at the national museum, Don. So obviously the military is obviously, the military is there now. And there's a lot of respect for the military with the average Egyptian.
LEMON: I had heard last night that it was -- from Egyptian-Americans here, it was actually young people, it was actually teenagers who ran out to the museum and sort of locked arms and put themselves around the museum. They were saying, that's the difference, these people don't want to tear down their country. That's what they're saying, in their estimation, they want to save it and just want a democracy and a president that is voted in fairly.
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VAUSE: It doesn't seem like much but it's a big ask.
LEMON: Yes, it is.
OK, listen, joining us now from Washington is CNN's Wolf Blitzer. He's going to continue our coverage at the top of the hour.
Hi, Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR, THE SITUATION ROOM: Don, thanks very much.
This is a huge breaking story. History is unfolding right now in the Middle East, what's happening in Egypt, as you know, and certainly as John knows, has enormous ramifications.
We have an interview coming up in the next hour with the Egyptian ambassador to the United States, Sameh Shoukry. He's going to be here. He'll be on the set. We have a lot of questions for him. I think our viewers will want to hear what he has to say. His government, right now, in deep trouble in Cairo as a result of the protesters on the streets.
We have a full night of breaking news coverage coming up. All of that has enormous ramifications for all of us, Don, so I think our viewers will want to stay with CNN throughout the night. LEMON: We will be watching.
Wolf Blitzer, coming up 6:00 p.m. eastern here on CNN.
Thanks, Wolf.
Will what we're seeing in Egypt today have any long-term impact?
VAUSE: Well, coming up, someone who has watched the region for a decade will weigh in about the future of the country.
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LEMON: As we look at pictures of the masses rising up against the Egyptian government, you have to wonder just how long will the dissent last and what will be the long-term impact if any.
Kenneth Stein is professor of modern Middle East history here at Emory University in Atlanta. And he joins us.
Professor, thank you for joining us.
DR. KENNETH STEIN, PROFESSOR OF MODERN MIDDLE EAST HISTORY, EMORY UNIVERSITY: It's a pleasure.
LEMON: What we're witnessing, is it a revolution? Is it going to last a long time? Is it too soon to tell?
STEIN: It's too fluid. It's chaos right now. It's the duration. It's the outcome. It's the participation of the military. That will tell us a lot. We may not know for four, five or six months.
LEMON: But there's something about every revolution, every story that sort of gives you -- there is an indicator of what's going to come. This one has none for you?
STEIN: No. American Revolution, we didn't know it would go through 1776 to 1887. French Revolution, we had no idea it would last 50 or 60 years. You don't know.
LEMON: Listen, I have been running around the city talking to lots of Egyptian-Americans. Many of them -- most of them are very hopeful. But there was some -- one individual in particular, said I'm not going to do the interview. Nothing is going to change. He's not going anywhere. This means nothing.
STEIN: The question is, is this a transformation in Egypt or is this a series of transactions in which the deck chairs are just reshuffle reshuffled. The man who will tell us a lot more will be Omar Suleiman. He was just appointed vice president. Suleiman has been very close to Mubarak. Was reluctant and resistant to take on the position of vice president. There's elections, I think, in August or September. Maybe Mubarak doesn't run. Maybe Suleiman does.
LEMON: Professor, let's just be honest about this. The whole world revolves around money, right. And Hosni Mubarak has lots of money. STEIN: I have no idea how much he has.
LEMON: He has billions of dollars. It's reported he has billions of dollars. Therefore, he would have his fist on the military and whatever. He can control much of what happens there through his purse strings.
STEIN: Let's be serious about this. This is nothing -- this is not just to do with money. This has to do with an autocracy that's --
LEMON: I'm not saying just money. I'm talking about how long he can stay in power and how much longer he can resist and the people who will support him.
STEIN: I'm surprised he doesn't survive on an Emory University salary. I'm sure he's doing OK. But the long term is Egypt has lived under an autocracy since the revolution in 1952. There's been corruption. The politics have been dysfunctional. Individuals have not had an opportunity to express themselves. There's underemployment. And it came to a head at this particular moment, fed, in part, by what happened in Tunisia.
LEMON: What happened -- that's what led up to it? Do you see this spreading to other -- Lebanon, spoke to people from Lebanon? They are concerned as well.
STEIN: I think if you're an autocrat in the Middle East, you look at this carefully. You have the military watch what the populations are doing. And what you don't do is intervene too quickly.
LEMON: Dr. Kenneth Stein, professor of modern Middle East history at Emory University.
Thank you so much. Appreciate you joining us.
STEIN: It's a pleasure. Thank you.
LEMOLN: I'm Don Lemon at the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta.
VAUSE: The political crisis in Egypt continues in two minutes with Wolf Blitzer. He's in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
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