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Violence Erupts in Egypt; Pro- and Anti-Mubarak Protesters Clash; Massive Storm Hits Midwest, Headed East; Teargas Fired in Tahrir Square as Pro and Anti-Mubarak Protesters Clash; EPA to Regulate Perchlorate
Aired February 02, 2011 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, guys.
And we've got two major stories that we're following. A massive winter storm plowing eastward. One in three Americans impacted by this misery.
And then, of course the horrifying explosion of violence in Egypt. Protesters riding in on horses and camel in support of the embattled president. Words are traded. Rocks thrown. Now a nation's crisis deepens.
And that is where we are going to begin. Day nine of the uprising turns vicious and bloody. This nation on edge, teetering on chaos and the whole world is watching as a peaceful transition turns barbaric.
We want to check in with a number of our correspondents there on the scene. Hala Gorani is actually right there in Tahrir Square.
And we know you got caught in the middle of the violence, Hala. Describe what you went through, what happened, what it's like right now.
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I was walking towards Tahrir Square. My intent was to get in the middle of it and try to figure out what the level of tension was between these pro and anti-Mubarak groups in Tahrir Square.
So in the beginning, it was OK. There was sort of a relatively peaceful atmosphere to the whole thing. Then I got closer to where these rock throwers from the pro-Mubarak side were stationed. The military, by the way, the whole time just looking on, not intervening.
Then a surreal scene, Kyra, out of nowhere it seems, demonstrators on camel-back and horse-back started charging in. At that point, there was a rush of people in the other direction. I got caught in it. I got slammed against the gates and was threatened by one of the pro- Mubarak protesters who was threatening me, telling me to get out, get out. And getting very close to my face.
And at that point, another protester took me by the shoulder and said to the man threatening me, "Don't touch her, she's with me." At that time, another rush. And my fear, quite frankly, Kyra, was I was going to get trampled. Another rush in the opposite direction. I started running as fast as I could out of the square. It got calmer for a time and then it became a little bit more tense again with more running as cars and people were sort of slowing in the opposite direction of the square and then I ran as fast as I could out of there back it our position here, our live position outside of Tahrir Square -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Wow. So put in perspective -- I was reading a couple thousands pro-Mubarak protesters moving in, possibly about 10,000 anti-Mubarak. So are there -- is there a large gap between the numbers there, Hala, and these pro-Mubarak protesters, was it just kind of a moment of where they rushed in and created the violence, and then it sort of calmed down? Or does it look like the number of pro- Mubarak protesters is getting bigger now?
GORANI: I cannot give you an accurate count because I was, the whole time, on the pro-Mubarak side. I was not able to get to the other side of the square where the anti-government protesters are gathered. In Tahrir, it wouldn't be safe to do so at that point given the level of tension. So it's really difficult for me give you a number count.
What I can say is that the pro-Mubarak, whoever they are, whoever sent them, are being threatening toward camera crews, journalists, anybody who look like they may be onlookers.
Some of the elements there are rather thuggish. And they seem to be intent on causing trouble and conflict. I can't give you an accurate number but some of the figures that I have seen out there estimate the anti-Mubarak crowd to be much larger.
So -- but as you know, full well, Kyra, it doesn't take many people to create a very chaotic situation. And when you threw in this bizarre, surreal camel charging contingent of pro-Mubarak demonstrators into the mix it made everything a lot more volatile -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Yes, no doubt. And it caught us all by surprise, too. Something we weren't expecting, Hala, and then we saw them wielding the whips and attacking the anti-government protesters. It made us all stop and pay attention because we haven't seen anything like that yet.
Hala, stay with us, please. We want to stay in touch with you, obviously, throughout the morning.
Our Anderson Cooper is also there in Cairo covering this terrifying turn of events.
Anderson, what have you been able to see? I know that you've been hearing shots fired. Have you been able to tell where those are coming from?
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: It's not clear. They are, obviously, coming from the square. It's not clear the exact location. It looks like a -- some sort of perhaps a military vehicle has just driven up in between the two sides or at least a vehicle has driven up in between the two sides and now there seems to be more of a no man's land that's just instantly been formed between the two sides, the pro-Mubarak forces on the left, the anti-Mubarak forces in Tahrir Square in the right.
And to backup what Hala was saying, I mean, they are looking -- the folks on the pro-Mubarak side, there are a number of individuals there, many individuals, looking for a fight. I mean they -- you don't come to Tahrir Square where, over the last nine days, we have seen tens of thousands of anti-Mubarak protesters without looking for some sort of a confrontation, whether physical one or not.
But it is certainly very physical. We've seen people being taken away on stretchers. And my team of Neil Holbrooke (ph), my cameraman, and Mary Ann Fox (ph), my producer, and I were set upon by the crowd. You know there was no rhyme or reason to it. It was just people looking for a fight, looking to make a point, and just punching us as much as they could as we tried to get away, trying to rip the camera out of our hands.
But it wasn't even about taking pictures because we weren't even taking pictures at that point. We were just trying to get to an area in Tahrir Square. So they are looking for a fight. There's a lot of people there who are very angry and perhaps trying to prove some sort of a point.
And what's of most concern is -- I'm looking right now, I'm now about two blocks. I'm looking at this from overhead vantage point and I can see more large groups of pro-Mubarak protesters moving toward the square.
There very well may be anti-Mubarak protesters coming from another location because if you're an anti-Mubarak -- because right now this is an area that is being controlled by pro-Mubarak protesters.
So -- but we see a group, I'm now looking at a group of maybe 200 or 300 who are just coming to the square, coming to this location to join in in whatever is going on down on the ground. But it does seem that two vehicles are now in place that seemed to have created a no man's land, a neutral zone, a clear zone between these two groups, and that neutral zone is right in front of the Egyptian museum. Why no one has moved in previous to this is not clear to me.
PHILLIPS: So, Anderson, can you get a sense for the military presence? I've seen a couple of tanks within the crowds there, but does it look like there is a large military presence?
COOPER: Yes. I mean the military for nine days now has controlled this entire area. On the big day of demonstration yesterday when they wanted to, you know, make sure that there was orderly progression of people into the square they had checkpoints cut off, so very limiting how people got into the square.
If they wanted to try to cut off the square or stop the pro-Mubarak protesters from getting close to the anti-Mubarak protesters, as one would do in a demonstration anywhere in much of the world, they could do that quite easily, but they are not doing anything. I mean at least -- I shouldn't say that. I should not say they have not been doing anything up until about five minutes ago, now because I see these two vehicles in front of the Egyptian museum in a no man's land, maybe they've moved in.
But you know when we were being attacked, for instance, somebody in the crowd dragged us toward one of these tanks seeking the safety, I guess, of -- or the alleged safety of an Egyptian military personnel and there was no safety to be had because they were just standing on the tank not doing anything.
So it's -- you know clearly the Egyptian military is all around this place. They have tanks, they have weapons. In the past, in the last couple of days, you all saw that video of them firing into the air when somebody -- when the crowd was setting upon somebody who was suspected of being a secret police officer and was accused of looting.
The crowd wanted to basically kill that person. The military fired into the air as they grabbed that person and brought that person inside an armored personnel carrier. We did just hear shooting going off. It's possible that was military firing into the air but I cannot confirm that.
PHILLIPS: All right. Anderson, please stay with us.
Barbara Starr -- our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr getting word now that the Cairo police are being brought back in.
What is the purpose behind this, Barbara? Because at the very beginning, we saw the police going at protesters a few days ago with batons and water cannons and then they were moved out. The military was moved in. It was a lot more peaceful.
What is the purpose behind bringing the police back?
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Kyra, this notion that the police are coming back in, this comes from senior U.S. officials who are gathering information minute-by-minute right now about what is going on in Cairo.
They tell us the situation remains volatile and uncertain, to say the least, but they do believe that they have indications the Egyptian government will be bringing the police back online. That police will be filing back into their police stations and getting back out on the street.
That's the information they have. But in this situation, whether that actually translates into a sudden police presence in Tahrir Square, of course, remains uncertain. The U.S. believes that the Egyptian army is standing by right now for many reasons. First and foremost, the Egyptian army has said it would not move against peaceful opposition demonstrators and they have been sticking to that.
Whether the Egyptian army moves in now due to this violence remains problematic. Mubarak would have to order them in and he may be uncertain about whether the army would follow his orders because of their policy of not moving against the peaceful opposition.
So look. I mean we are headed here for great uncertainty. The police, controlled by the Ministry of Interior, obviously, closer to the Mubarak regime at this point, if they move in, it may not be good news for the opposition demonstrators.
The army not moving in right now. And by all accounts, the U.S. believes that's for deliberate reason. Mubarak isn't ordering them, knowing that they may not want to move against the opposition to the government, so this remains a very volatile situation.
I can tell you here at the Pentagon and across Washington, these pictures are being watched by administration officials minute-by- minute -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right. Barbara Starr, thanks so much.
Anderson Cooper, we're going to stay in touch with you. Also, Hala Gorani, who's down there in the Liberation Square.
You know these street protests have boiled up in at least five Arab nations over the last few weeks now and some of the governments are even bending to the angry demands.
Here's the update coming from other countries. Earlier this morning, Yemen's president announced that he will not seek reelection. He also vowed to not hand over power to his son. That announcement comes after weeks of protests and just ahead of tomorrow's scheduled day of rage uprising. We're following that.
And then yesterday, Jordan's King Abdullah also made a preemptive strike of sorts. He dismissed his prime minister and dissolved his government. The king then ordered his new prime minister to begin launching swift reforms that protesters are demanding.
Now all of this follows last month's uprising in Tunisia. We can't forget that. The massive street protest there that forced Tunisia's president from office and eventually chased him right out of the country.
Stay with us. We've got continuing coverage, of course, of the crisis in Egypt. Our crews are in place to bring you all the latest developments as they happen.
Also ahead, massive winter storm plowing eastward. One in 3 Americans impacted by this misery. We're going to update you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: All right, our other big story this morning, the Midwest clobbered by a colossal blizzard, and it's pushing east. We just got word that Boston Logan Airport has been closed down.
And this is the view from space. You can actually see the storm coating a huge chunk of the country from New Mexico to Maine. And it's left millions of people in trouble here, trying to cope with the snow, the ice, the high winds, and the frigid temperatures. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TONY GIRONDO, RESIDENT: I've shoveled snow three or four times today in front of my business, and every time you go out there, it's a couple more inches. So, it's -- and it's not letting up, it's not getting any better.
CORY RACKLEY, PLOW OPERATOR: As soon as you make a pass and get to the end of one major artery, you look back, come back the other way, and it's covered up again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I drive fine in the truck, but everyone that's turning, just switching lanes, is spinning out, and it's kind of scary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very dangerous. But you've got to be very careful, that's all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wouldn't you like to have your own sand truck escort?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That'd be beautiful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Well, America's midsection looks like this. Roads are just impassible, and a number of schools and universities, government offices, all closed. Cities, all but one, shut down, apparently.
Airlines are coping with the fallout as well. Flight cancellations snowballing into the thousands. FlightAware.com actually says that airlines grounded some 6700 flights yesterday, and we just told you that Boston Logan airport has been closed down. Now, more than 4500 flights have been canceled today, as well. That's more than 11,000 flights total, and things may not get back on track for days.
We've got teams fanned out across the Midwest. Rob Marciano is in Chicago, Reynolds Wolf in St. Louis, and Jacqui Jeras keeping an eye on the big picture right here at CNN Headquarters in Atlanta.
But Rob, let's go ahead and start with you. Chicagoans know how to tackle winter weather, but a snow day has actually been called for public school students, and this is the first one since 1999, right?
ROB MARCIANO, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yes. It is -- it's huge. And that storm brought, like, 20 inches of snow. So, Chicago certainly a cold city.
(HORN HONKS)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, baby.
MARCIANO: But it's not necessarily a snow city. Although that snow truck driver probably making a little bit of OT today. It's only been a handful of times in history that we've gotten over 16 inches of snow. And this is one of them. So, this city, for the most part, is shut down. I estimate maybe five percent, maybe ten percent of the people have crawled out of their homes today.
That's a good thing, because last night was a hairy situation. Folks on Lakeshore Drive stranded, emergency vehicles with sirens blasting up and down this city, trying to get to those folks and save them.
On top of the winds. And they're still blowing now. We had some damage to places like Wrigley Field. All right, Michigan Avenue, not too shabby, but blowing and drifting snow. That's going to be an issue throughout the day today, with blizzard warnings remaining in effect for the next several hours.
Getting around by foot is probably the best idea. Folks who left their cars around town, well, they've got to get the shovel out and get to work in order to get to where they need to be. But for the most part, this city shut down, Kyra, and more snow coming in.
We may approach a record right now, top five in snowstorms, but that's only part of this particular story, as you've been talking about, and Reynolds and the rest of the gang have the other part. Back to you.
PHILLIPS: Yes, and let's move on to Reynolds. Rob, thank you so much. Reynolds is just about 300 miles south in St. Louis, where a blizzard warning is in effect for about four more hours. Is that right, Reynolds?
REYNOLDS WOLF, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Absolutely. We really did luck out here in St. Louis. We certainly had our share of some winter-like precipitation.
Yesterday it all started as freezing rain, then we had a little bit of sleet, then we had some snow. About two to four inches of snowfall in western St. Louis. I'm at the corner of Maryland and Euclid.
And the snowfall we have is really some dry stuff. In fact, you try to make a snowball, it's all but impossible. It's pretty dry. But we have this coating of two to four inches of snow, but on top of it, we've got a lot of icing in the trees. Check it out here all of these branches encrusted with it. You got ice everywhere.
Take a look at this. We're going to walk over and show you some of these chairs and these tables here. Got some icicles over here, walk over to some of these street signs and whatnot. Hey, check it out over here on the stop sign. This ice hasn't stopped. It's over here, too, And what's even more, you've got it all over a lot of the power lines.
So, winds are expected to pick up later on today, and with these power lines that are coated with ice, there is the possibility we could see some power lines down and, with that, the potential for some power outages. So, again, we're really concerned about that.
One other concern we did have with the roadways, but believe it or not, they're in pretty good shape here. You can see this one, definitely passable. If you're heading east/west on this particular way, you can see there's plenty of snow here and there.
But all things considered, not bad. They're very fortunate because, I'll tell you, just to our south and southeast, we've had some areas that got nothing except rain. Not freezing rain, just rain. But then, another 40 miles out to our west, some locations up to 20 inches of snowfall.
So, St. Louis very, very fortunate. It could have been worse. Roadways, including parts of I-70 were closed from St. Louis to Kansas City. That is now open. The airport, open also, but 120 flights have canceled so far. With the winds picking up later this afternoon, there could be more delays, perhaps even more cancellations.
That's the story from St. Louis. Kyra, let's kick it back to you in the studio.
PHILLIPS: Hey, Reynolds, we saw the front page of "The St. Louis Post Dispatch." And that kind of says it all. The salt truck even on its side. Did you see that this morning?
WOLF: I saw it. I've heard people talking about it. They've been talking about it in the coffee shop. It's been a wild ride, and we still have a long way to go for winter. Just wondering what's right -- maybe right around the corner.
What's funny, too, is the brunt of this now, of course, moving through Chicago, and next on the line is going to be parts of the northeast. Boston, especially, may get hammered pretty hard. It's going to be interesting to see the story, how it unfolds up there.
PHILLIPS: Reynolds, thanks. So many cities, shivering, slipping, sliding through the storm. Even these roads in Tulsa, Oklahoma look more like ski slopes than streets. Cars are getting stuck there. Drivers just leaving them behind. Snow plows spinning their wheels.
So -- and then in Indiana, roads are like ice rinks, basically. Take a look at this. Cars just slipping around. Tree limbs, power lines snapping. Officials say some people may be without power for days.
And after, well, socking the Midwest, storm's going to move east. New York. It's going to be pretty dangerous on Wednesday. The commute there on the icy roads, and Amtrak suspending service on the northeast corridor from New York to Philadelphia because of power problems today.
Jacqui Jeras, it's -- what's going on?
JACQUI JERAS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: It's everywhere.
PHILLIPS: And you look at the numbers of people being impacted.
JERAS: Yes.
PHILLIPS: It's massive. JERAS: There's people that are still stranded out there from last night on the roadways in northern parts of Illinois, southern parts of Wisconsin, and that's because some of the snow drifts, now, with these winds blowing. You've had a foot of snow on the ground. Well, now, we've got snow drifts that are about 10 to 15 feet. And so, it really just paralyzes these areas.
And you really need to heed the warnings, because not just is it terrible and miserable and dangerous to be in your car like that, we've got bitter cold dangerous wind chills behind it. So, if you're stuck in your car, you better hope you have a full tank of gas to keep it running about 10 minutes an hour to help keep yourself safe and keep yourself warm as well.
All right, let's show you what's going on with the latest of this storm. We've really kind of got a double-barrel system at this point. And what's happening here across the Midwest, we still have very strong winds. The heavy snow continues to come down.
Lower Michigan is where the heaviest snow is. Milwaukee's finally starting to die down, and now we're still seeing some heavy snow into Chicago because as those winds blow over the warmer lake water, we're getting enhancement with all of that extra moisture in place. And we've been seeing wind gusts as much as 70 miles per hour. Yes. On the lake shore. So that is pushing somewhere between hurricane strength almost.
And in the northeast, we've had the freezing rain in New York City. As much as a half of an inch, now, being reported in Newark, New Jersey. That starting to change over to some rain, so that's a little bit of good news.
But Boston, you've been in the snow, and now you're changing to the sleet and freezing rain, and that will be a major concern, and that's why the runways are closed at Boston Logan. The airport's still open, there's probably still people there, and things are still operating. Just no flights. They're saying you can't get on that runway.
And here's where that bitter cold air is behind this system here. Look at that. Dallas is five degrees below zero, that's what it feels like. So, this cold air is going to stick around for a couple of days. It's going to take a long time, Kyra, to make up for this mess and clean it all up.
PHILLIPS: It's also Groundhog Day.
JERAS: It is.
PHILLIPS: Yes.
JERAS: That rodent.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: And the famous groundhog --
JERAS: What does he know?
PHILLIPS: Punxsutawney Phil, it was business as usual.
JERAS: Yes.
PHILLIPS: We always run this video every single time. He actually emerged from his burrows on Gobbler's Knob shortly after dawn today. So, did the old Pennsylvania rodent see its shadow, Jacqui?
JERAS: Of course not! It's cloudy with a terrible storm! And we knew he wouldn't see his shadow. They couldn't make it up this year, right?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JERAS: So, Phil is saying, winter is pretty much over and that we're going to have spring-like conditions very soon.
PHILLIPS: There you go.
JERAS: Keep in mind that Phil is about 39 percent correct.
PHILLIPS: Let's get those statistics out there. Thank you.
JERAS: Yes. You want to know what NOAA says, though, by the way?
PHILLIPS: What does NOAA say?
JERAS: Just to let you know what NOAA's saying --
PHILLIPS: OK, all right.
JERAS: For the next three months.
PHILLIPS: I would go with NOAA.
JERAS: I'd go with NOAA, as well.
PHILLIPS: Yes.
JERAS: Yes, pretty much. Above average. So, that's good. A little spring, there, in the southern plains and into Southwest, but still below average in the Pacific Northwest, with equal chances across parts of the east.
PHILLIPS: Got it. Thanks, Jacqui.
JERAS: There you go, for what it's worth.
PHILLIPS: It's worth more when you tell it.
All right. Well, what a great deal. You get in trouble, get yanked from your regular job, and guess what? You get a raise. A big, fat raise. We're going to tell you where that's happening, and how some educators are outraged.
Plus, we are keeping an eye on Egypt. Live pictures, now, from Tahrir Square. We're now getting word that the Egyptian army has moved in, firing teargas, as you saw within the past hour, pro-Mubarak supporters moving in on the anti-Mubarak supporters, coming in on horseback, camelback, wielding whips.
Still, stones are being thrown. And the army, now, coming into the entrance, there, of the square, we're being told, firing tear gas at the protesters. We're on it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: All right, it's just past 9:30 in the east, 6:30 out west. Here's the top stories that have us talking this morning. We go to live pictures, once again, out of Cairo. Liberation Square. Members of the Egyptian army, we are told, now entering Cairo's Tahrir Square. Apparently, firing teargas canisters into the crowd.
Pro-Mubarak demonstrators have blocked in anti-government demonstrators and others right there at the site. That is the latest with we are getting from Ben Wedeman. Of course, we've got crews on the ground right there in the square. We're going to continue to update you on what's happening throughout the entire morning and afternoon here on CNN.
Also, the EPA has announced that it will regulate the chemical perchlorate. That's a chemical linked to contaminated drinking water. The EPA's decision comes after a study of potential health risks to pregnant women and children.
And Australians are bracing for a giant cyclone to hit the already flood-ravaged state of Queensland. That storm has winds of more than 140 miles per hour, and it just made landfall.
All right, a milestone on Wall Street. The Dow closed above 12,000 yesterday. The last time that happened was in the summer of 2008. But, today, we have some numbers on the state of the job market. Are they good enough to keep that rally going? We sure hope so.
(STOCK MARKET REPORT)
We want to dip into CNN coverage right now what's happening in Egypt. Our Anderson Cooper is joining us live from Cairo. Let's listen in to the latest there from Tahrir Square.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): -- along the way, until we finally got safety on our own. There were soldiers we walked by and one soldier tried to help, but it was completely ineffective and didn't last very long.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Demonstrators have been taking place for close to two hours. We have been talking our Anderson Cooper who described a CNN crew was roughed up. All of it taking place in the square. We have been talking to Ivan Watson at another position there on Tahrir Square.
PHILLIPS: All right. That's our sister network, CNN International, covering the developments there out of Liberation Square. We are keeping our eye on it as well. We'll bring you all of the latest updates as pro-Mubarak and anti-Mubarak protesters go at it right there in the middle of Tahrir Square.
Straight ahead: a high school teacher yanked out of the classroom years ago for talking sex and being too touchy-feely. Well, get this: he doesn't get fired. He doesn't even get a pay cut. In fact, he gets a raise. What kind of bizarre world does that happen in? Well, it's happening in America right now.
And a monster storm with one of every three Americans feeling the pinch. The Midwest reeling; the East Coast bracing. We're covering it all.
Stay with CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: Well, pro- and anti-government forces clashing right there in Tahrir Square, otherwise known as Liberation Square in Cairo. We even saw the protesters coming in on camelback and horseback, wielding whips, stones being thrown, obviously, lots of angry words. Now, we've gotten word that the army has been brought in, firing tear gas, rather, into the crowds.
We talked with Nicholas Kristof from "The New York Times" yesterday after he had been there in Liberation Square. He has now been able to make his way back to his hotel room.
Nicholas, I was listening to you all morning. You were right there in the thick of things.
It definitely was a far different scene today than it was yesterday. Yesterday, it seemed more of like a pray-in. Today, it got much more violence as the pro-Mubarak protesters moved right through those barricades.
NICHOLAS KRISTOF, NEW YORK TIMES COLUMNIST (via telephone): Yes, I mean, essentially what it seems is that President Mubarak decided to send a crackdown not in a form of sending police in or sending soldiers in, but sending thugs in.
And so, there have been the busloads of people moving in and, you know, some of them are unarmed. But some are carrying weapons and some are using them. And I saw with machete, somebody with a straight razor, a lot of people with clubs. And there's also a real anti- foreign streak and anti-journalist streak to them.
PHILLIPS: Even our reporters were attacked, Nicholas. Did that happen to you?
KRISTOF: I was not attacked. Our camera was -- we were threatened with a video camera we were using and broken. And I also was probably a lot more discreet than the CNN camera crew. I tried to stay in a place where I had a good clear exit.
But it was -- I tried to -- when I tried talk to the pro-democracy people, the anti -- the pro-Mubarak people would rush over and got very pushy and very violent, and I -- there were two sisters who were pro-democracy people and, boy, one of the great displays of courage I saw today was they went over and they continued to stand up for what they believed in and they had this mob around them, very threatening mob, and they continued to say that they believed in democracy and eventually managed to diffuse a very intense situation.
PHILLIPS: Now, Nicholas, the Obama administration has made it very clear to Hosni Mubarak and his staff not to incite violence. And you just said you believed that it was Mubarak that sent in these pro- government supporters into the square.
Have you been able to confirm that those couple of thousand people on horseback, camelback, the ones that rushed through the barricades were actually directed by the president himself?
KRISTOF: Well, I have no -- you know, no marching orders to show it, but it seems to me preposterous to think that, all of a sudden, at the same time in Cairo and in Alexandria, you spontaneously had a mass outpouring of pro-Mubarak people who then organized buses to take them, who carried weapons, and have exactly the same talking points, the same signs, the same hostility to journalists everywhere you turned.
And it -- I mean, I think the advantage for Mubarak of using thugs to do his work is he has a little more plausible deniability. But I hope the international community will not let him get away with that.
PHILLIPS: And, of course, we're going to be following it all morning and see exactly what the international community does. We'll keep talking with you as well.
Nicholas Kristof with "The New York Times" -- Nicholas, thanks so much for calling in.
Stay with us for continuing coverage of the crisis in Egypt. Our crews are in place. We're going to bring you the latest developments as it unfolds.
Well, what a great deal. You get in trouble. You get yanked from your regular job. And then you get a raise.
We're going to tell you where that's happening and how some educators are absolutely outraged.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: OK, dad, say your teen daughter is at school and a male teacher tells her how hot she is. He touches her breasts, thigh, talks about sexual things, and how he'd like to actually have her do a striptease.
Now, dad, I know what you would do to the guy. But what do you think the school should do? Fire him? Run him out of town?
How about give him a raise? To the very top level of pay maybe?
Get this: "The New York Post" reporting that a social studies teacher in Brooklyn was accused of all of that and more. Steve Ostrin was acquitted of criminal charges and the school yanked him out of class, got him away from the kids.
But they put him in something called a rubber room. It's kind of like a teacher's purgatory. He has been there nearly six years. And like I said, he's even gotten a raise that bumped him to the top of the scale. I'm talking a little more than a hundred thousand dollars a year.
Purgatory sure does pay, doesn't it? And he might actually get his teaching job back. Can you imagine CNN education contributor Steve Perry, also a father, is pretty outraged about this.
Randi Weingarten is head of the American Federation of Teachers and former union official in New York. She joins us as well.
Appreciate you both being here.
And, Randi, let me start with you, because, of course, we're all having a hard time wrapping our heads around this. You're in New York when this was all happening. Why wasn't Steve Ostrin, this teacher, fired for his behavior?
RANDI WEINGARTEN, PRES., AMERICAN FEDERATION OF TEACHERS: Well, no one is going to defend the process that happened in New York City at that time and, in fact, years ago, I tried to close the rubber rooms when I was there.
The bottom line is: with these new recommendations that Ken Feinberg has done for the American Federation of Teachers, not -- these kind of cases will never happen again. We -- Mr. Feinberg has come up with a recommendation that says these cases must be done within 100 days. Therefore, no more rubber rooms, no more six years, no more defending a practice where everybody starts blaming each other because of these kind of horrendous allegations.
Number one, teachers who are accused of these kind of things have to be yanked out of the classrooms. At the same time, they deserve some due process because these kind of allegations, if they're false, can only ruin a teacher's career, it can ruin a child's career, it can ruin everyone's career.
So, ultimately, if you have allegations like this, teachers have to be yanked out. These cases have to be done in a speedy way.
Mr. Feinberg's recommendations make sure we'd never have cases like this again.
PHILLIPS: All right. I'm going to get back to those recommendations and the outrage that came about through Mayor Bloomberg and why these recommendations were even put into place in just a second. But, Steve, I want to get to you. You know, there was an administrative trial that spanned over two years about this guy's behavior. And -- and they found that he was guilty of sexual banter. As a matter of fact, he was even quoted as saying, "Am I guilty of inappropriate language sometimes? Well, that was my style, but it wasn't criminal."
It just seems absurd that this guy may now be back in the classroom, that that's actually being considered.
STEVE PERRY, CNN EDUCATION CONTRIBUTOR: I commend Attorney Weingarten and the American Federation of Teachers for acknowledging that they have been wrong -- they have been wrong for almost a generation supporting these policies.
But what she needs to do is to go one step further. This is an individual who already had due process, two years of -- two years of -- of research within the school. The principal and everyone else doing what they had to do to find that this individual, who admitted that he was inappropriate, needed to be removed.
And now she and her outfit are going to defend him. They are going to use their resources to ensure that he is given even further process, whether it's a hundred days or 15 minutes, it's too much.
At some point, they need to begin to acknowledge that they have fought too hard for their members and not hard enough for the children. They have been on the wrong side of reform for too long. At some point, please begin to focus on the children. We are educators. You are defenders of the status quo.
PHILLIPS: Randi, please respond.
WEINGARTEN: Yes. Now, look. Steve, I'm -- I'm very appreciative that you talk about my legal background as opposed to the six years that I taught classes at Clara Barton High School in New York City.
We all love kids and we all want to make sure that kids get a decent education. One of the reasons that we asked Mr. Feinberg to come up with these proposals is that many of us, myself since 1987, have been trying to make these processes both fast and fair.
And, ultimately, both management and labor have been responsible for making them long and that's why we asked that independent person. We said, look, try and make sure we make this work. And in fact, the American Federation of Teachers is going to vote on Mr. Feinberg's proposals this coming week. And ultimately, we hope they get adopted around the country, because, number one, there should not be teachers working with kids who are convicted of kind -- this kind of misconduct.
Number two, we have to make sure that we don't say that there is a bad -- there is an epidemic of bad teachers. There are 3.2 million teachers in schools right now as we talk doing the best job they can with kids. So we have to keep kids safe. We have to make these processes fair. But we have to have a fair process to make sure there is no false allegations.
PHILLIPS: Ok and Randi, point -- point is well made. Mayor Bloomberg though, did come out and say last year, he made a big deal out of these rubber rooms and he said, you know quote, "It's an absurd and expensive abuse of tenure." And he actually said it would end and that all cases would be resolved by the end of 2010.
WEINGARTEN: Right.
PHILLIPS: But it doesn't seem like that happened, because you got Steve Ostrin now that possibly maybe back into the -- be put back into the classroom.
(CROSSTALK)
PERRY: But the problem here is that --
WEINGARTEN: Well what happened -- what -- excuse me. What -- what happened was that I tried as president of the UFT to get the rubber rooms closed in 2004. I have a lot of respect from Mayor Bloomberg but he basically said "no" to us. We said we would police our own profession.
Now, what has happened since is that that local union has -- has worked with Joel Klein when he was Chancellor and they finally had an agreement to close the rubber rooms. What the Feinberg recommendations do is across the country, he has figured out a way -- this is why he is such a great problem solver -- he's figured out a way to say to put everybody at risk and say everybody is responsible and let's make sure these hearings get done --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Ok.
WEINGARTEN: -- in a hundred days, and if they don't, we we're going to --
PHILLIPS: Ok, Steve. Final word, Steve. Because we've got -- we've got to get back to Cairo. Please, quickly. Steve, final word.
PERRY: The -- the problem is -- the problem is that Attorney Weingarten doesn't have the truth on her side. At this point, all they have are suggestions. The process that is in place has defended teachers such as this and will continue to until such time as they stand up and make the change.
PHILLIPS: Steve Perry, Randi Weingarten, I promise to stay on this story. We will continue the debate. I appreciate both of you for being with us.
We've got to get back to Cairo and what's happening there.
Thank you both so much.
We're going to actually simulcast now with CNN International; live pictures from Tahrir Square. Anderson Cooper live for us there. Let's go ahead and listen in for -- on the latest.
COOPER: -- are trying to join from other parts of the Square to -- to get to their supporters.
I don't know, but if you are an anti-Mubarak supporter, you would not want to be anywhere near the location I am in because the crowd is looking for a fight. And if you get caught in that crowd, it gets dicey and violent very, very quickly.
We're now seeing some people running back and forth.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And Anderson --
COOPER: Ok.
Wait a minute the -- ok look, the pro-Mubarak side has actually now surged. Nic, they've actually now surged -- go ahead, Nic.
ROBERTSON: Yes, Anderson, you are describing the military vehicles coming in between, but that cordon between the two groups actually getting smaller, and now the surge you're -- you're witnessing there of the pro-Mubarak supporters coming in. It sounds from -- from what you're describing, a -- a clash is getting closer here.
COOPER: There's no doubt about it. The pro-Mubarak side has now surged forward. That no man's land is now gone. The -- the pro- Mubarak side is now pushed up against the vehicles and now they've just overturned one of those army vehicles. A roar has gone up from the crowd. Let's see if you can hear that.
They -- they've overturned one of the military vehicles. That was -- that was, this is -- this could get ugly very quickly. What you now have is you have the pro-Mubarak side surging forward. Pushing, now shots are being fired I assume to try to keep the pro-Mubarak side back but the crowd is pushing against the military vehicles, the trucks that were brought in. They are overturning them.
The anti-Mubarak side has fallen back to the south side of the Egyptian Museum and there is a large anti-Mubarak crowd which is there, but it is nowhere near as large from my vantage point as the pro-Mubarak side. The pro-Mubarak has grown tremendously over the last half hour.
And now there's still a no-man's-land between them. It looks like perhaps some soldiers have tried to keep the crowd from -- from pushing any further. So this is all happening right in front of the Egyptian Museum.
I should also tell you we -- as we know because this is -- the soldiers have been guarding the Egyptian Museum now for -- for at least seven of the last nine days, so there are Egyptian soldiers all along the museum, the front of the museum, there are even soldiers watching from the roof of the museum.
How heavily armed they are, or if they could or would do anything is not clear. But they haven't at this point. But now the -- the no- man's-land, there is a new no-man's-land that seems to be holding. For how long, we can't tell that.
ROBERTSON: Anderson, we were just looking at live pictures there of the -- of one area in the Square, in Liberation Square, army soldiers getting on the top of their tank apparently arresting a protester. I'm not clear what side of that protester was on, getting that person at top of the tank.
Where you are those army vehicles, one of them has been overturned. I asked you a few minutes if any soldiers were out there. Has that situation changed? Or any of the soldiers come -- coming out now?
COOPER: I -- I cannot see any soldiers on the ground and I can tell you now that the pro-Mubarak forces are moving forward even more.
And it looks like one of the trucks are moving. Oh, look. Let's pan over to the right, to the east of Tahrir Square. We are seeing now a large cloud of smoke. That's another entrance to Liberation Square.
I have not -- I don't think we have a reporter over in that area, but that is one of the entrances to Tahrir Square. I'm not sure who is using that entrance whether there were -- I'm not sure if pro Mubarak forces are also massing over in that area.
Let's move back to now right in front of the Egyptian museum. We now have pro Mubarak forces moving forward. I can't tell if one of the Egyptian military vehicles is also moving. Is that truck moving back? Yes, the truck is moving back. Well, it's moving forward now.
So basically now, the truck, the military vehicle, is driving toward the square, and the entire crowd is following it. This crowd, this pro-Mubarak crowd is mobilized and is looking for a fight. Many individuals in this crowd are looking for a fight, I can tell you from having been in that crowd.
They are just now moving forward. I'm not sure if there is anything there to stop them from moving directly into the square. This is the farthest they have been able to move forward in the last several hours. We have not seen them move this forward. They are now -- the entire crowd, now several thousand strong, maybe more than 10,000 strong moving forward into the crowd.
There is a line of tanks and APCs on the south side of the Egyptian museum, not visible from our cameras. I'm not clear -- I cannot tell you what those vehicles are doing at this point. I also just got a statement, "The foreign ministry of Egypt rejects calls from foreign parties to start a transitional phase right now."
The story of the day is what is happening right now in Liberation Square. And again, this pro-Mubarak crowd surging now; they have completely now occupied the area in front of the Egyptian museum. They are shoulder to shoulder. It is densely packed with people who are now moving forward. Whether or not they are going to now continue to push into Liberation Square is not clear.
I can tell you if you pan over to the anti-Mubarak side in Liberation Square, they have now amassed at the north entrance to Liberation Square, and it looks like they are going to move against the pro- Mubarak forces. And again, this is not moving in a peaceful direction.
