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Violent Clashes in Cairo; Situation in Egypt Has 'Deteriorated'; Molotov Cocktails Being Thrown Into Crowds

Aired February 02, 2011 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: But right now, Suzanne, as you take over, we are seeing a number of Molotov cocktails, small fires, starting to increase throughout the protesters there.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: Kyra, thank you very much.

Obviously, a very chaotic scene that we're seeing on the ground.

In Cairo, our own Anderson Cooper is on the ground there, and he's been describing to us the kind of chaos, the scene that he has been watching over the last several hours. Clearly, things out of control now. It seems like there is no kind of authority that's on the streets of Cairo and elsewhere in Egypt.

Anderson, if we could bring you back in just to recap, to update what you have been seeing for the viewers who are just joining us now at 11:00 Eastern Time. Clearly, the sun has gone down, darkness has set, is there and there is violence that has erupted in the streets -- Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Yes, Suzanne, the situation here has really deteriorated, and it's really shocking that it's been allowed by the authorities here, to go on this long.

It is now 6:00 here, and darkness has fallen. What you're looking at -- and I'm not sure how grainy the pictures are, but you are seeing several fires in front of the Egyptian Museum, a major landmark full of this country's historical treasures.

In front of the museum for the last three-plus hours now, four- plus hours, we have seen pitched battles basically between anti- Mubarak forces and pro-Mubarak forces. The anti-Mubarak forces -- there you see a Molotov cocktail being thrown -- the anti-Mubarak forces, they have occupied Tahrir Square for the last nine days. They haven't had weapons, they've been controlling access to the square, they've been patting people down. It's been peaceful protests that we have seen.

Starting late -- early Wednesday morning in Egypt, there was a pro-government demonstration several blocks away. Now another Molotov cocktail being thrown from the top of a building directly into the anti-Mubarak crowd. I'm not sure if you're able to see that.

That is about the fourth time we've seen now incendiary devices. And another one now being thrown off the building into the crowd. That is a very ominous development, and that is now the fifth or sixth time we have seen incendiary devices being launched off the top of that building.

It fell, I'm told, onto an army truck, not into the crowd. The army has put several vehicles in between the pro-Mubarak forces and the anti-Mubarak forces.

And we are seeing now again, just repeatedly, more and more Molotov cocktails, incendiary devices being thrown, attempting to throw them into the anti-Mubarak crowd. Again, there does not seem to be -- I'm not seeing any sign of military reinforcements coming.

We're seeing large numbers now of Molotov cocktails being thrown. It's not clear -- there are Egyptian military vehicles, APCs and tanks, in front of -- which are not visible from our cameras, but it's not clear what, if anything, the soldiers with those tanks or vehicles are doing or can do. I'm not sure how many troops they actually have on the ground there, but there's been no effort to bring in military backup in the four hours that we've been watching these battles unfold -- Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: Anderson, can you give us a sense of the pro, the anti-demonstrators? How does this break down? What is the size of these groups, and who are the ones, if you can even tell, who are instigating this violence, or is it a back and forth? Do we know what kind of weapons they're using and what size we're talking about, the numbers here?

COOPER: Well, I can tell you for a fact the pro-Mubarak forces came here looking for a fight, or individuals in the crowd came here looking for a fight. These anti-Mubarak demonstrators have been peaceful for the last nine days. They have been occupying the square.

There have been hundreds of thousands of people over those days peacefully demonstrating in this square. They would check people as they entered the square to make sure they didn't have weapons. They would tell people to be peaceful.

It is only this morning when you had these large numbers of pro- Mubarak demonstrators who have come that the violence has erupted. And the Molotov cocktails that we see being thrown are all being thrown from pro-Mubarak forces toward the anti-Mubarak forces.

I was in the crowd with the pro-Mubarak forces about three hours or so ago, and I can tell you, I make it about -- just about to the area around the Egyptian Museum before the first punch was thrown at me and my team. And we very quickly -- and look at that, another large incendiary device being dropped in the area of the military vehicles, in the area where the anti-Mubarak protesters are.

We were set upon by a crowd about three or four hours ago, a crowd that grew from just a few people to anywhere from 10 to 20 people who followed us as we tried to hastily make our exit from the area. And for about five minutes there, as it took us to quickly get back to a safe location, people would just come up, try to throw a punch, punched me in the head, punched my producer, punched my cameraman, tried to grab his camera. It was a melee. I mean, there was no control over it.

Egyptian soldiers were standing on their tanks just watching. And it wasn't just us. There were many melees going on.

There were a number of people -- a number of thugs, basically, males, in the pro-Mubarak crowd who were clearly looking for a fight, clearly aggressive, clearly looking to make some sort of a statement today. And that is what they have been doing.

And the crowd -- the pro-Mubarak forces have just been growing. There is no control over trying to stop them from getting to the square by Egyptian military forces, which are all around this area. This entire square is hemmed in by the Egyptian military, who, except for the ones, maybe, who are firing tear gas occasionally, largely, it seems, they are just standing on their tanks or armored personnel carriers -- Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: Anderson, do you get a sense of why people attacked you? Are these people who feel like they have a cause now, that they support Mubarak, or is this just simply chaos? Is this just simply people running the streets and just deciding they are going to attack whoever they want to attack? I mean, is there any sense of rhyme or reason to why these people are behaving like this?

COOPER: I wouldn't call it chaos. It is certainly chaotic, but there is rhyme and reason to it. There is a certain order it.

I mean, there are organized pro-Mubarak groups which have arrived. They come en masse and wander -- groups of 100 or 200 or 300. And there are definitely certain individuals in this crowd whatever their -- I don't know what their employment is, I don't know who they actually are working for, but they very clearly are looking to instigate violence.

I mean, I was looking directly at the man who came up to me and punched me in the head, you know, and then once he started, other people gathered. It's just there's a lot of them -- they're very anti-media, I guess. They think -- I'm not sure why they are targeting reporters, per se, but, clearly, they are -- again, I'm sorry, I'm looking at more Molotov cocktails being thrown.

But they are looking to instigate something. There's a reason they came to this square.

They had a demonstration early Wednesday morning, around 3:00 a.m., several blocks from here, that seemed to be kind of sponsored by -- whether it was sponsored by the government or not, I can't say for sure, but it certainly had a real sound system, it had music playing, it had all of the elements of a party.

And starting early this morning, at 5:00 a.m., when we were doing our show, when we were doing it from our live shot location, we had rocks being thrown at us by pro-Mubarak supporters. They clearly were out there looking to instigate instances, and that is exactly what they have gotten today. And now we hear shots being fired. It seems to be coming from the area in front of the Egyptian Museum, as you also see more Molotov cocktails being launched -- Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: And Anderson, before all of this broke out, a lot of the protests that we had seen before, there were young men who were bringing their children. You saw women in the streets as well.

Can we assume that the women, the children are no longer in the streets after dark here?

COOPER: Wow, look at that.

MALVEAUX: We can see more Molotov cocktails that are actually being -- tell me what you're seeing, Anderson, from your vantage point.

COOPER: Yes. It looks like a truck is -- yes. OK. A truck is now on fire, and I'm hearing repeated automatic weapon fire now several blocks away. I can't tell the exact location of it, but it looks like one Molotov cocktail has found its mark on a truck.

Now water it being poured on it. They're trying to put it out.

That's the area that the anti-Mubarak supporters are in, to the right of that burning vehicle, as you look at it on your screen. That's the side where the anti-Mubarak protesters are. Again, all these Molotov cocktails, these incendiary devices that we've been seeing -- that we're seeing being launched -- right now there's another one -- those are all being launched from pro-Mubarak forces toward anti-Mubarak protesters.

And as for are there women and children in that crowd, in the anti-Mubarak side? Absolutely. I mean, there have been protesters there. There have been families that have been camping out there for nine days, who have actually put up tents, who have been sleeping there, women, little children.

And now we're just seeing repeated Molotov cocktails. Clearly, people have just come to the pro-Mubarak side bringing incendiary devices, because that is what we're seeing launched. And you can imagine, if they brought that, they also have other weapons with them.

I can tell you, in the crowd that was attacking us, pushing us around, punching us about three or four hours ago, there was a man -- I just checked the video -- there was a man with a large knife, which, thankfully, I didn't see at the time and, thankfully, wasn't used in that melee. But this is just now -- this is escalating.

As darkness has come, this is escalating. And again, Suzanne, I have to point out, I have a bird's eye view, and I see three entrances to Liberation Square. I'm not seeing any efforts, any backup by the Egyptian military. I'm not seeing any soldiers coming from any of the three directions that I can see to the square to try to restore some sort of order. MALVEAUX: Anderson, this may be difficult to answer, but do we have any sense of where these demonstrators are getting these weapons? I mean, have you seen anybody just handing off these kind of Molotov cocktails to one another? Or do we have any idea why they would come with such firepower, really?

COOPER: Well, I can only imagine they would come because they want to create violence. I mean, they want to make a statement and they want to take the anti-Mubarak protesters, again, who had been peaceful now for eight or nine days.

And we're seeing now just one Molotov cocktail after another being fired. So, clearly, someone or a group of people have brought a large amount of incendiary devices, because up until now, we've only seen occasional Molotov cocktails. This is now one after the other.

And I can tell you, people in the crowd, inside the square, the anti-Mubarak protesters, I'm not seeing any Molotov cocktails being thrown back. I don't think -- I think they are trapped in the square.

I think, it seems, from the two exits that I can see, there are pro-Mubarak forces on both those exit points. So I'm not sure if people in the square can get out even if they wanted to get out.

And again, there are women and children in there who have been camped out. I think the people in the square may be trapped, unless there is an exit that is not surrounded by pro-Mubarak forces.

It is a very difficult, a very dangerous situation. And again, with darkness coming, unless there is some sort of effort by Egyptian military personnel to separate these two, to allow some sort of order to be restored, there's no telling what can occur, Suzanne.

And in terms of where they can get the weapons, over the last eight or nine days, as we have been witnessing and as we've been reporting, people have armed themselves because the police have been pulled off the streets. So, everybody, it seems, men, at night are on street corners with clubs, with knives, with sticks, with bats, keeping order, looking out for looters, trying to protect their own neighborhoods. So there's no shortage of makeshift weapons, and clearly Molotov cocktails are among the arsenal now.

MALVEAUX: Anderson, obviously you are much, much closer to this. We are simply watching this by video, and we hear kind of the rumblings of a crowd behind.

What are you hearing from where you are? What does it sound like?

COOPER: You know, I'm now several stories up and away from the front line. Again, we were treated here several hours ago after being attacked by the crowd.

You can hear kind of the general roar of the crowd, and it kind of escalates. There's been an ebb and a flow, a push and a pull. As the pro-Mubarak forces will push forward and try to get into the square, a yell will go up from their side, and the same will happen with the anti-Mubarak protesters as they try to push back. So you just hear a lot of murmuring, a lot of yelling, a few pro-Mubarak chants here and there, but there's not any public address system.

I don't hear anyone with a bullhorn exhorting the crowd onward. It seems very much kind of individuals yelling, chanting, displaying flags and pro-Mubarak signs and Mubarak pictures.

But beneath me, I am actually seeing four ambulances which are stationed very close to my location, which I suppose are treating anybody who happens to come from the pro-Mubarak side. If somebody is injured on the anti-Mubarak side, I don't think they would be allowed -- I don't think they would risk coming through the pro-Mubarak crowd because, again, there are a number of individuals in that crowd who are clearly looking for a fight and are looking to get a punch in whenever they can.

MALVEAUX: Anderson, we're going to come back to you.

Obviously, our own Anderson Cooper, anchor Anderson Cooper, there on the ground in Cairo watching all the developments. It has turned into a violent and chaotic scene there on the streets of Cairo.

Coming up after the break, we're going to talk to former White House official Jamie Rubin about what is next here. What do the people in Egypt do, in the region? Is there anything that the Obama administration can do at this point to try to quell the violence, a smooth transition for President Mubarak, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, and whether or not this is the kind of thing that will continue in the hours and the days to come?

Obviously, a very chaotic situation on the ground there in Cairo, Egypt. We're going to be keeping a very close eye on that. We will come back to Anderson as the news warrants.

We are also following another major, major story. That is the monster storm that is blanketing this country. It is causing chaos when it comes to travel, power outages, just trying to get through the snow, the ice, the wind. Just terrible conditions across about a third of the country.

We're going to have all those details, much, much more news coming up after the quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MALVEAUX: We're going to go back to our anchor, Anderson Cooper, who is on the ground in Cairo, on the streets of Cairo there. We have been watching over the last several hours, but just in the last couple of minutes, Anderson describing really what seems to be an eruption of violence that's taking place there between those who are in support of President Hosni Mubarak's government and those who are against.

They seem to have a variety of weapons that they have brought with them. The latest we've seen, just the Molotov cocktails that have been thrown from one side to the other. And it seems as if there is no real authority there on the ground to deal with the kind of violence that has erupted just within the last couple of hours.

Anderson, if you can, explain to us what you are seeing, what you're hearing on the ground, and whether or not this looks like it could get worse.

We're not sure if Anderson can hear us from his vantage point. We're trying to see if he can actually hear us.

But you are looking at live pictures there. This is breaking news.

This is the violent clashes in Cairo, Egypt, we have seen over the last couple of days, just as recently as yesterday, the thousands and thousands of people who have gathered peacefully in Tahrir Square, Liberation Square, those who have been moving and promoting a pro- democracy movement which led to the Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak, making that announcement yesterday that he would not seek re-election in September.

Former White House official Jamie Rubin is joining us now to give us a bigger picture of the context of all of this.

Jamie, it's been an extraordinary development, but what has been so worrisome is what we have seen just within the last couple of hours here.

Do you think this was inevitable?

JAMES RUBIN, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, "THE BLOOMBERG VIEW": Well, yes. I think it's very important for viewers, for listeners, for the world, when looking at these pictures, to remember that the square has become a stage now in which the Mubarak administration and government is trying to play out its scenario for the future.

They are trying to argue now that, through all their actions, whether by the army, the police, these rent-a-crowd protesters, the Molotov cocktails, they are trying to play out a scenario in which, OK, President Mubarak has said he would step down, he's been reasonable. And now look what's happening. There are clashes, there's instability, there's violence.

But if you had a broader lens and were looking at Egypt more widely, and not just the square, I doubt you would see this kind of protester violence occurring against each other. And I think would you have a very different impression of what's going on in Egypt.

I think it's in the interest of the Mubarak government to have the world worried now about violence, to be worried about the kind of chaos that could, if it really did spread to the rest of the country and the rest of the region, pose real problems for the rest of the world. But it's in their interest for the world to be saying, oh, look, we have gone far enough, we've got the changes we need on the part of the Mubarak government. They've agreed that he won't run in September, that his son won't run, that we just need a few months for a transition.

MALVEAUX: So, Jamie, let me understand what you are saying. I mean, it is in their interest, obviously, to look at this and say, oh, my goodness, it's chaos on the street, let's get this thing wrapped up in an orderly fashion.

Do you think, or if there's any evidence, any suggestion at all, that President Hosni Mubarak is behind some of what we're seeing today, the violence on the streets, whether it's through arming some of these individuals, whether it's through the military, that has said before that they would not strike against the protesters? Because there are some people on the ground who suspect that maybe he has a hand in this.

RUBIN: Well, I have talked to a number of people on the ground who are veterans of these situations, and the individuals who have been attacking journalists' cars like Anderson Cooper, and journalists directly, and other journalists' cars, are of a certain type. They are usually former intelligence or police officers. They are young men who are paid by the government, government supporters. And they are playing out an act on the stage that is the square, that is now being shown to the world, the threat of violence.

And they are hoping very much, those who support President Mubarak -- I have no idea whether he is personally doing this, but clearly there is a large government and a large party and a large number of individuals in Egypt who have an interest in some form of the status quo. They would not like to see Mubarak have to get on a plane and leave the country, and have the top layers of his party depart. And they very much want to have the world move from a position of pressuring Mubarak to leave to a position of encouraging the military and the security forces to establish control.

And so by creating these incidents -- and I have no doubt there are Mubarak supporters who are intentionally creating the impression of wide-scale violence in order, perhaps, in the future, near or later, I don't know, to justify establishing control through the military.

MALVEAUX: So, Jamie, what does President Obama do? Is there anything that the White House, that the president should be doing now? Picking up the phone?

We know that he spoke earlier with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, he reached out to the leader of Turkey, Saudi Arabia. Does he need to start getting on the phone as well and say, look, you know, there is something more that has to happen here? I mean, clearly, this has not calmed the crowds, and President Mubarak's statement has not made things any better.

RUBIN: Well, actually, Suzanne, I think it's important not to panic here. I think the impression of violence and chaos that the Mubarak supporters are trying to create with these Molotov cocktails and rent-a-crowds and attacks on journalists is precisely to get the whole world worried that some immediate step needs to be taken to stop what is going on in the square. But the only step that is likely to be taken that can achieve that is for support to develop for the government forces, the military, the security, the police to clear the square. And if you remember Tiananmen Square, if you remember all of the events in Lebanon, in Iran, it's all about who owns the image of that square and what steps need to be taken by one side or the other to create the impression for the wider public and the country, and the wider world, of what the policy ought to be.

If I were in government, as you asked me, I would be urging President Obama to step back a little bit now. I think it's time for this to be handed over to the secretary of state and the secretary of defense.

He has made the steps necessary to show President Mubarak and the people on the ground that the United States is on the side of change. He has shown, obviously, great support for President Mubarak given the difficult situation we are in. And now, what we don't want to do is panic.

MALVEAUX: Right.

RUBIN: We don't want to let the pro-regime supporters push us because of a few Molotov cocktails and some very unfortunate injuries into supporting or endorsing some re-establishment of control by the army or clearing of this stage.

MALVEAUX: OK, Jamie. We're going to get back to you in a moment.

I want to bring our viewers up to speed on some of the things that have taken place on the ground, really some surreal and bizarre scenes, but also very dangerous. This is our own Hala Gorani. This is what she experienced earlier in the day. I want you to take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR/CORRESPONDENT: Out of nowhere, it seems, demonstrators on camelback and horseback started charging in. At that point, there was a rush of people in the other direction.

I got caught in it. I got slammed against the gate and was threatened by one of the pro-Mubarak protesters, who was threatening me, telling me to "Get out! Get out!" and getting very close to my face. And at that point, another protester took me by my shoulder and said to the man threatening me, "Don't touch her, she's with me." At that point, another rush.

And my fear, quite frankly, Kyra, was that I was going to get trampled.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: That was our own Hala Gorani. And you saw some of those pictures. You saw those on horseback, some on camels. It may seem rather strange for those who don't know Egypt and some of the areas. Having lived there for a while, it's an odd mix. But you actually have urban areas, and you can turn the corner and have a market that is full of camels and horses, people selling vegetables and fruits on the streets, that type of thing. And people are using everything that they have, essentially, either to protect themselves -- and some we see using it to promote violence, to cause trouble and chaos on the streets there.

But we are now looking at live pictures. You can see there in Tahrir Square people chanting, people on both sides of this volatile issue.

The pro-Mubarak side, some of them, at least, turning to violence, using what Anderson Cooper has described as sticks, machetes, knives, all kinds of things to release their anger and to cause trouble. There's also those against President Mubarak.

Over the last couple of days it has been very peaceful, but you can see this video here that we got earlier, Molotov cocktails that are being thrown, fires that have been ignited, some who are trying to put out those fires. And clearly, a very difficult situation, a very nerve-wracking, and a lot of people very worried about what we are seeing.

I want to get more on this on the other side of this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MALVEAUX: You are watching scenes developing out of Cairo, Egypt there on the streets in Tahrir Square. This is where there are protesters, both for and against President Mubarak. It has gotten chaotic just within the last couple of hours as we have seen our own CNN anchor Anderson Cooper on the ground there.

He's been watching the developments. He's been describing to us what we are seeing some of these pictures from earlier in the day. Molotov cocktails that were thrown, fires that ignited. There are hoses that they were trying to actually put out some of those fires.

Clearly, a lot of people on the streets. Completely an unruly situation within this section of Tahrir Square. This is something that really is the worst that people had hoped would not happen, the worst imagined here. There had been thousands and thousands of people who had gathered to make their views known, to protest the Mubarak government.

Now you have people who have come out in support against and a clash that has happened between these two groups. You can see those pictures there of them trying to put out some of those fires.

Our own Michael Holmes is joining us as well to kind of break it down.

Michael, I mean, the big picture here we are seeing a small scene here erupt in Cairo on the street. But this really is an indication of something that is happening much larger in the region that we have seen signs of those who are unhappy, who are frustrated, who are revolting against their government.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. You're absolutely right, Suzanne. This is a regional problem at the moment. And let's go back, go back and this is where it all started, Tunisia. Tunis.

What you're seeing in Cairo is interesting because it took protesters a month to have the president leave that country. The people power there. It took a month. This has happened in a week.

Let's go a little bit wide here. You had trouble in Algeria as well. You've had some protests in Sudan.

Yemen is a very important one. We've seen that the president there is saying, he's not going to run again when he's up for reelection in 2013. There's a little bit of concern there because he said that before. In 2005, he said that and changed his mind.

Yemen, very important country. And it's important for the U.S. All of these countries where the problem is happening it all comes back to the U.S. in some geopolitical sense.

Yemen has a rebellion in the north. It's got a cessationist movement in the south. It's a battleground for al Qaeda as well. And the Yemeni government has been an ally of the U.S. in fighting that. Now if there are protests there, the Yemeni government starts to look under threat, that could be a big issue. This is not a stable place. Poorest country in the region.

Now when we go in and look around where it's happening now in Cairo, Egypt, and then Jordan, which we've touched on a little bit here now. The king making -- let's call it a preemptive peace strike, if you like, by firing the prime minister, basically shaking up the government there, trying to get ahead of the game, if you like.

Jordan does not want to see anything like what's been going on in Egypt. It's a very complicated population in terms of the makeup of the population. Sixty percent Palestinian, refugees who fled after the wars with Israel, and also you've got half a million Iraqis there as well. It's a complicated mix. The Muslim Brotherhood is active there as well.

The king, the monarch -- constitutional monarchy, but there are elections. Some say that the election system is a little -- perhaps not perfect, there's a lot of gerrymandering that goes on there. And there are calls for that to be a whole lot more open as well. So watch out for Jordan. There's going to be some demonstrations there.

Syria, very important, of course, too. Syria, which is seen as baking Hezbollah in Lebanon, a spoiler in the region, if you like. There is a call for a day of rough there, a day of rage, on Saturday. That's going out through Facebook, other social media.

Interestingly, Facebook is banned in Syria, so there is no way of knowing how widely spread this call for a day of rage is in Damascus.

You're talking about a lot of authoritarian regimes there, too, with very solid security apparatuses. And to see what would happen if there was any kind of large gathering in Damascus is going to be very interesting, too. It's a place that the -- where the president would not be shy in cracking down.

They are all different countries. You can't just say the Arab world this is happening. Every country has got its own issues, it's got its own regime to deal with, if you like. And so it's very hard to say, you know, revolutions are exportable. They are not.

However, a lot of the common themes are the same, poverty, unemployment, people not happy with not having enough of a say. And what you're seeing is people getting more emboldened, and starting to realize, well, we're not afraid of the security forces anymore. We're certainly seeing that in Egypt. We certainly saw it in Tunisia, as well.

What's going to happen over the next few days in Jordan, let's watch that. It's going to be very, very important for the region generally. And the other thing, too, to remember here, too. Israel stuck in the whole middle of all this, right? Very worried. Their two major allies -- well, not allies but the countries that have done peace deals with Israel, Jordan and Cairo -- Egypt, right on the border there.

If there are different, let's say, governments in Egypt and in Jordan at some point, they are unlikely to be at the same level of cooperation with Israel that we've seen out of the governments that are there at the moment. Worth remembering.

MALVEAUX: And, Michael, I know speaking with some senior administration officials, exchanging e-mail today, they're very concerned about what they are seeing there in Cairo. We're taking a look at some of these pictures from earlier -- well, these are live picks that we're seeing. It's very dark, difficult to see, but it still seems that the streets are quite crowded with protesters from both sides.

What the White House is concerned about is that there are a lot of leaders, those leaders in those countries that you mentioned, in the region, who are looking, they're looking to us, they're looking to the United States, some sort of leadership in terms of how the Obama administration responds.

And you've got somebody like Hosni Mubarak, President Mubarak, who has been a loyal ally of the United States. I mean here's someone who made peace with Israel, who has gone up and fought against al Qaeda, has moderated Hamas, and has, for the large part, tried to keep radical Islamists out of the country, at bay.

And these other leaders are very much worried that they might lose the support of the United States because of what's happened over the last 24, 48 hours. HOLMES: There are -- there are those, however, who will argue that the Mubarak regime in cracking down so hard on opposition groups, including Islamic and Islamist opposition groups, actually fomented a lot of anti-U.S. fervor, among those of who have been locked up and tortured, who then went off to cause trouble in other places like Afghanistan.

So there's another side to that argument that Mubarak kept a lid on extremism. Some say that in part that lid helped foment extremism as well. When you're looking at how the -- you wouldn't want to be in the White House right now, I got to tell you, because the line there walking could not be thinner.

You have to try to engender some sort of peaceful overtures here, try to sort things out, try to make everything as smooth as possible using whatever influence you can but you don't want to look like you're too involved, you're too invested.

This is a neighborhood where the U.S. is not seen on the street as the best friend of these people out there demonstrating. There was a poll done in Egypt not that long ago that showed approval of the U.S. in general was under 20 percent. So the guys that are out there demonstrating in these various countries, on the grassroots level -- now, the U.S. can go in there and support governments or say reassuring things to various leaders.

They've got to be careful about not looking too involved because this is a grassroots, street-level thing that we're seeing.

MALVEAUX: And I want to bring back our own Jamie Rubin, if you would, to weigh in on what Michael is saying there. Because obviously, President Obama, he had tried to set the reset button there, making that speech fairly early on in the administration, that there was going to be a new relationship with the Middle East.

I mean we see what's unfolding here. Do we think that this is something that is successful? Do we think this is a good thing, this is progress that we're watching here?

RUBIN: Well, I think you have to remember that, yes, President Obama set -- reset relations with much of the world through policies on the war on terrorism and Iraq. But he also very clearly put aside the so-called freedom agenda of President Bush, and he chose Cairo as the location for his speech.

He fully embraced President Mubarak. He did not publicly choose to make known to the Egyptian people or the people in the region our private criticisms on the grounds of the crackdowns or the lack of democratic values. That was a choice, a policy choice.

In the case of Iran, when the revolution or -- sorry, the street demonstrations occurred in the spring of 2009, President Obama was very careful not to get too far ahead of it. Now, they said that was because they didn't want to make is seem like it was a U.S. operation, but the real reason, I suspect, is because they wanted to pursue the nuclear agreement. In short, pushing for democratic change in the Arab world has not been a hallmark of the U.S. administration, and that's why this last week it's been so difficult for the administration to catch up with events on the ground.

And I think it's extremely important right now with this violence occurring that the White House not be pressured either by the media, by Congress, by events, into moving -- to accept or support or otherwise acquiesce in a decision to clear the square or to support a military crackdown.

That's exactly what the Mubarak supporters want.

MALVEAUX: But Jamie --

RUBIN: They wanted to create these images today. They wanted to create a sense of panic so that the U.S. government would support a clearing of the square or a crackdown.

MALVEAUX: And, Jamie, you know it best, but obviously, I mean there is self-interest of the United States why President Obama -- Mubarak, rather, has been such a strong ally, and why the Bush administration, Clinton administration, others have kind of looked the other way at times when there has -- there have been complaints of repression and oppression that he has not been a perfect ally.

But the administration and the United States needs Egypt. They need this cornerstone of stability which once was stability.

RUBIN: Absolutely.

MALVEAUX: Who do they look for for that new leadership? I mean is it the Muslim Brotherhood? There is some who believe that that could bring up the possibility of an Islamist state.

RUBIN: Well, Suzanne, I think you're absolutely right that President Mubarak was as good an ally as you could imagine as the leader of Egypt. It's impossible for me to contemplate a leader who would be more pro-American, more supportive of our policies with regard to Israel, with regard to Iraq, with regard to terrorism.

But we have to live in the real world. In the real world, he's been there for 30 years. We have given him support for 30 years. I think for now, for us to having made clear that he needed to allow for parliamentary elections, for freedoms and democratic changes that he refused to listen to us.

We're not abandoning an ally. This happened to himself because he didn't listen to the things we were saying privately. And yes, there will be a new leadership in Egypt. We don't know what it is. But I would strongly urge us not to jump to believe that somehow the Muslim Brotherhood is going to capture the country of Egypt.

There have been hundreds of thousands of secular Egyptians on the streets who have been the primary movers of this change, and the Muslim Brotherhood has a level of support. It's hard to gauge it precisely, but it's not the leader of this effort and it's not likely to be in charge. In fact, it's extremely unlikely that they would be in charge.

So we will have a leadership in Egypt. We need to get a dialogue together. I think what -- the right thing we should be pushing for is to get --

MALVEAUX: Right.

RUBIN: -- some form of roundtable going, and in that case --

MALVEAUX: Right.

RUBIN: -- we will have a leadership that is not as pro-American as Mubarak but it will be plenty pro-American and plenty in favor of stability and the policies we believe in.

MALVEAUX: Jamie, I want to thank you for your insights. Obviously, we'll get back to you as the story develops.

But I want our viewers to take a look at some of these pictures. These pictures that we have been watching with you, this event that has been unfolding there on the streets of Cairo.

This is obviously clearly earlier, this was daytime video that was taken. This is when it essentially first started, the violence, the back and forth. You can see people throwing stones, sticks. Some armed with machetes. That from accounts from the ground.

Just both sides, again, it looks like there's really no kind of authority, whether it was military or police on the ground. These are people who are just unleashing, it seems, anger and frustration.

I want to you take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. They're from the pro-Mubarak.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: Now it may seem strange and odd but you see those on horseback. You see some camels in the scene. This is clearly a scene that is out of control as people start to punch and kick and use any kind of weapon that they happen to have there on the streets in their hands.

In Cairo, there are areas where it's urban and very sophisticated, very modern. And you can walk two blocks and have a camel farm, people selling fruits and vegetables, horses in a stable, and you can see here by the video that there are people who have mounted those horses and are attacking others in the crowd.

This from earlier when it was daytime in Cairo and things really started to get out of control. Sticks and stones, a lot of people who are very upset and frightened, and this is exactly what people had feared was going to happen, which is now happening and is now dark in Cairo.

And everybody is paying very close attention to see what happens to the Egyptian people and what is ahead in their future. We're going to take a quick break.

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MALVEAUX: We are following the breaking news that is happening out of Cairo, Egypt. You can see from pictures earlier today it is dark there, it is nighttime. Violence has erupted on the streets there as demonstrators throw Molotov cocktails. Fires are being ignited and you see that there are forces there -- those who were trying to put out the fire with hoses.

We know that there have been people who have been wounded. We know our own anchor Anderson Cooper also experiencing on the other end of some of that violence there.

Obviously, it has become a chaotic and frightening scene there as people are trying to figure out who is in charge, if anyone is in charge at this moment.

I want to go to our own Ben Wedeman who has been in Cairo, and has seen these developments, and is on the phone -- joins us by phone now.

Ben, what do you make of what has happened over the last several hours?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think what we're seeing, Suzanne, is really sort of a government-sanctioned lynch mob going after the protesters in Tahrir Square who by and large yes, they have occupied the square but have been peaceful for the most part since coming here.

I think this is probably revenge of the Mubarak regime for the demonstrations, for bringing in a situation whereby the president had announced he would not run for reelection yet again in September.

This is revenge for the destruction, the burning of the massive building that houses the headquarters of the ruling National Democratic Party. It appears that the regime has made no effort whatsoever to prevent what was clearly going to be a violent clash between the anti-government protesters and these people who are -- have come in support of the government and in support of Hosni Mubarak.

What we're seeing is the army is playing a completely passive role, apparently making no effort to prevent this from happening. And, of course, worth mentioning that there are no police on the ground. There are no riot police. This, of course, is a government -- it has more than a million people in its security apparatus, but it appears none have been deployed today to prevent what was inevitable.

I was in our office this morning at about noon. There were about 4,000 to 5,000 pro government demonstrators there, and they made it clear they were going to go to Tahrir Square and confront the anti- government movement. So there we have it.

MALVEAUX: You say it was inevitable. Was there any sense at all that the regime that's still in power -- I assume, Mubarak's regime -- that they would do anything, that they would plan to try to keep these two sides from attacking each other?

WEDEMAN: Well, I think all the circumstances point to one thing, a deliberate decision to allow this to happen. There's, as I said, no effort was made to prevent it. I was, in fact, caught right between the two groups.

And initially, it was fascinating. The two groups met. They chanted, and in the front line people started to debate and discuss peacefully, even though with loud voices, their differences. And it was only after about 15 to 20 minutes of this with rocks and shoes and stones and sticks and metal bars started to slide between the two sides.

But it appeared that there were elements who were planning this -- what you're seeing now with Molotov cocktails being thrown from the roofs of buildings around Tahrir Square down onto the anti-government protesters. Clearly, there was some premeditation in all of this -- Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: Ben, explain to us, though, because these are people -- they live side by side. These are families, some people, you know, relatives or friends. I mean how does something like this happen where you have this kind of violence, Egyptian against Egyptian here?

This is no longer -- at least from my understanding, it no longer seems like it's a protest for or against President Mubarak. I mean how is it that Egyptians are turning on each other like this?

WEDEMAN: Well, because they have such great differences of opinion regarding President Mubarak. Now what's interesting is that the crowd in Tahrir Square, the anti-government demonstrators, by and large tended to be better educated, more sophisticated, more worldly than the people who are now attacking them in the square.

I spoke to many of the pro-government protesters. For the most part, they seem to be government workers and others who didn't seem to have any profession at all. So there's a distinct difference between the two groups -- Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: This difference, are we seeing -- is this an expression of built-up frustration, pent-up frustration between these groups before, the haves and the have-nots perhaps?

WEDEMAN: Perhaps you can put it that way. We don't really know the true motivations behind the pro-government demonstrators. I've heard all sorts of things. That people were told that if they wanted to get their end of the month paycheck, that they would first have to go to Tahrir Square, demonstrate, and then go back to their ministries and pick up those paychecks.

We saw that several of the so-called demonstrators who were captured by the protest movement ended up having -- they had the police I.D. cards. So it's not at all clear whether this is a class difference, whether -- or what exactly is going on. Certainly, what you sense in the -- among the pro -- the anti-government protesters there are a lot of young people frustrated with the lack of opportunity for them in Egypt.

And that certainly will also be the case for almost all young people in Egypt. This is a country where 60 percent of the population is under the age of 25. You have huge youth unemployment and very little for them to do.

MALVEAUX: Ben, I want you to hold on there. We're going to try to bring in our own CNN anchor Anderson Cooper.

Anderson, can you hear us?

COOPER: Yes, I hear you.

MALVEAUX: Can you give us an update from where you are? We saw that there was quite a bit lot of violence, Molotov cocktails that were being thrown from where you are?

COOPER: Yes, I'm overlooking the Egyptian museum. It's very difficult to tell at this point (INAUDIBLE) that's descended. It would seem that they started -- both lines have stabilized although I'm seeing now a large group of pro-Mubarak protesters, kind of fresh arrivals who are now moving into the center of the pro-Mubarak crowd trying to get closer to the front.

It looks like the pro-Mubarak side is about halfway -- right about in front of -- about halfway in front of the Egyptian museum. The anti-Mubarak side has retained their line on the other side. I've just seen a number of Molotov cocktails continue to be thrown. There's a fire burning close to the front lines right in front of the Egyptian museum.

Several ambulances have kind of made their way closer to the front. They're about at the north corner of the Egyptian museum. There's three or four ambulances which are just kind of sitting there with their lights on ready to receive anyone who's injured. But the only injuries they would be receiving would be pro-Mubarak protesters.

I think it would be very difficult for an anti-Mubarak protester to be brought -- you know an injured one to be brought through the crowd. There's a high level of hostility and anger in the midst of that crowd. A number of people there coming, looking for a fight, and a fight is certainly what they've had on their hands for the last several hours as we've seen this kind ebb and flow of both sides.

One side would surge forward. But the battle on this side is more --

(CROSSTALK)

MALVEAUX: OK, Anderson, we're going to take -- we're going to take a quick break, and then we're going to come back to you to get more details about what you're seeing on the ground. Right after this.

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