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Egypt Uprising; Crowd Builds at Presidential Palace

Aired February 11, 2011 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. A busy morning, you certainly have had one, we certainly have one ahead of us. Lots happening in Egypt. We are certainly watching history unfolds so let's get right to it.

In Cairo, the crowds grow and rage deepens. I'm Randi Kaye.

ISHA SESAY, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: And I'm Isha Sesay. We'd like to welcome CNN viewers right around the world to this special coverage of the crisis in Egypt.

Well, it is 4:00 p.m. in Egypt right now. It is less than a day since President Mubarak shocked his nation and the world by refusing to leave office. His defiance has enraged protesters demanding change and ignited a new fury and determination.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You say you're ready to die, you say?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely, for freedom.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: For freedom?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And a million person. And a million person ready to die for freedom.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: Protesters are challenging all Egyptians to pour into the streets today. Hundreds of thousands are answering that call. But the decisive power may rest with the army and its loyalties.

SESAY: Well, Tahrir Square is packed, overflowing with people right now. So the protesters are branching out to other locations. Take a look at this map of the area with us. This is Tahrir Square. It is the heart of these protests where massive crowds have gathered.

Now people who couldn't get into the square have swarmed state TV headquarters. Well, now TV said some of their employees actually were even prevented from entering the building.

Another protest we want to tell you that was planned outside the presidential palace, that's about seven miles away, but the army has the palace surrounded. The world watches and CNN correspondents are at every point of the crisis.

Well, let's begin with CNN's Ben Wedeman who is above Tahrir Square in central Cairo.

Ben, set the scene for us. What is happening right now?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Isha, actually, I'm not above Tahrir Square. I'm just a bit north of that. Overlooking the Cornish which is the main road next to the Nile where we see thousands of people. It's a slightly smaller crowd than it was before, but thousands of people right in front of you chanting, of course, for President Hosni Mubarak to leave.

We are just about a hundred yards from the headquarters of state television and the Ministry of Information and this is where these peoples who have left Tahrir Square have come to gather for a demonstration. A largely peaceful demonstration, I must add.

Just a while -- a while ago, the crowd -- just from the pressure of the crowd did push some of the barbed wire fencing in front of the ministry down, but, in fact, then they pulled it back up again. Beginning to chant selmia, selmia, which is Arabic for peaceful, peaceful. Clearly they don't want this to deteriorate into a violent demonstration -- Isha.

SESAY: Ben, give us some more perspective on the security presence that is there.

WEDEMAN: Well, what we have in front of the Ministry of Information is at least 10 tanks from the army. In addition to soldiers, armored personnel carriers and like I said the barbed wire fencing in front of it. But even though they are demonstrating here, the protesters don't seem to be ready to voice any intention to actually try to bust in or break into state TV.

SESAY: All right. Ben, stand by for us. We're going to continue to check in with you through the coming hours.

Ben Wedeman there in Cairo. Randi?

KAYE: And now we want to take you to the ground there in Tahrir Square where Arwa Damon is on the street with protesters there in Cairo. Arwa is joining us by phone.

Arwa, what are the protesters telling you there today?

ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via phone): Hi, Randi. Well, I'm actually at the demonstration that Ben was just referring to, taking place in front of television.

I just met a journalist who used to work for one of the state- controlled newspapers. He was telling me that he resigned two weeks ago. Set up with corruption. When he saw these demonstrations taking on the life that they did, he decided that it was time for him to forego the fact that he had taken this job, even though he knew that his journalistic principles would have been compromised. He took it just to feed his family. But now he is saying he is joining the demonstrators in full swing.

Around an hour ago, we saw the crowd here swelling towards -- pushing up towards against the barbed wire fencing that has been set up in front of the building, the state television building (INAUDIBLE) the Ministry of Information.

They actually brought that barbed wire down. It would have been a perfect opportunity for them, had they chosen to do so, to storm the building. However, what we saw was that they immediately pulled it back up and all of them broke into a chant, a peaceful, peaceful. And then they formed something of a human chain to prevent the other masses from swelling towards the building. Also chanting we are one with the military.

We also saw a more (INAUDIBLE) Egyptian flag, calligraphy on it made out of the images of those who people have told us were murdered, killed in these demonstrations. We met one woman sobbing on top of this plastic flag on the ground. Her son was one of the dead, she said, but now she is crying for everybody, for all of her children of Egypt, she said, that have died for this cause -- Randi.

KAYE: And Arwa, I can hear the passion behind you. Yet you're saying that they are yelling -- chanting peaceful. Yet a lot of the protesters who said they would show up today had said to expect a bloodshed and some had even said that they were willing to die.

Is that the sense that you get from them today, even though at least until this point things are peaceful?

DAMON: Yes. Randi, people are here, most definitely, appear to be willing to sacrifice everything. They have come so far. They really, in some ways, achieved so much already. Many people are stunned by the fact that what started out as something of an Internet call over Twitter and Facebook has now morphed into the unthinkable. The possible downfall of President Mubarak.

Many people after his speech yesterday were expressing their sheer horror and anger. We could see their crest-fallen faces. Many were crying. Today what we're seeing, what we're hearing is that that anger in their voices appears to have morphed into an even greater determination to ride this out.

So many people saying to us that they are not going to allow those who have died to die in vain -- Randi.

KAYE: All right. Our Arwa Damon for us, outside Tahrir Square. Thank you, Arwa.

SESAY: This morning, let's bring in our Ivan Watson. He's also on the ground there in Egypt. He joins us now by phone. Ivan, first of all, where are you? What are you seeing and hearing?

IVAN WATSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Isha, I'm at the presidential palace about, I'd say, maybe a hundred feet from the ornate walls of really what is a symbol of power of the President Hosni Mubarak. And here, there are several thousand demonstrators that have gathered. They are peacefully protesting, they are chanting the usual chant become really a chorus over the past two and a half weeks against Hosni Mubarak.

And they gathered up in front of a wall of concertina wire that has been erected across the main boulevard here by Egyptian troops. There are about four tanks and armored personnel carriers parked behind the concertina wire, aiming their barrels down the streets.

And the people have gathered here in another symbol of defiance really against Hosni Mubarak.

And I'm joined by Mohamed Mustafa (ph). He's an associate professors at one of the universities here. And one of the demonstrators.

Why did you decide to come here today?

MOHAMED MUSTAFA, EGYPTIAN PROTESTER: I decided to come here because it's sure for me and for a lot of people that the regime under which allowed the killing of our innocent brothers, the bloodshed, the eyewitness reports of killing in cold blood, the corruption, the corruption file, the killing. The regime that allows that has to go. No other -- no other option.

WATSON: That is what several thousand demonstrators gathered here peacefully holding protest signs, holding an Egyptian flag as well.

Now, Isha, one other point. On the drive here from the downtown area around Tahrir, I was struck by the fact that the Egyptian capital is mostly a ghost town right now. Completely (INAUDIBLE). Hardly any cars whatsoever or pedestrians. It seems that either people are demonstrating at points like Tahrir Square, the state TV station, the presidential palace or parliament, or they're at home and too scared to go outside -- Isha.

SESAY: Ivan, this one, I want to ask you about the whereabouts of President Hosni Mubarak. We are getting reports from various sources that suggest he's no longer there in Cairo. Can you speak to that? What are you hearing?

WATSON: Well, there are reports coming out of different news networks, quite a bit of rumors as well that he may have left, that he may have gone to his palace in Sharm el-Sheikh. Very difficult for us to confirm right now.

Some of the crowd here seems to believe that he has left as well based on conversations they've had with the presidential guard on the other side of the concertina wire here. We have to be careful about this. The rumor mill in Egypt has just been out of control over the past two and a half weeks, so we'll be work to go try to nail that down in the hours to come.

SESAY: Ivan, the president, when he spoke yesterday -- President Mubarak -- was a man of defiance talking about not bowing to international pressure, saying he's doing this in the interest of the nation. What are they saying to you, those people that have gathered there outside the presidential palace? Because we are effectively at a standoff.

WATSON: One man said Mubarak has a Ph.D in stubbornness and this is not the time for this. Another man said hey, a week or so ago we could have lived with a speech like that and a process, a gradual process of handing over power to the Vice President Suleiman, but the problem now is too much blood has been spilled. We've seen the true face of the regime and we cannot excuse -- we cannot excuse somebody who would kill fellow Egyptians this way.

So it does seem like the position of the demonstrators has hardened even as their protest movement has grown.

SESAY: And what about the military? Has the position about the military changed? Because, obviously, they are seen as a power brokers in the standoff that could effectively change the lay of the land. Are you getting a sense? Are people asking for the military to decisively intervene?

WATSON: Well, let me pass that question to Mohamed Mustafa here. The question here is, what do you want from the military right now and what are you hearing when you talk to these soldiers right behind the concertina wire?

MUSTAFA: I talked to them personally today in the morning that (INAUDIBLE) here before all of these people came along. The military are with us. It's very clear. The commanders on the other side of the barbed wire said in clear voice, every one of you has a brother or a father or son in the army. We're with you. And he has left. I heard it with my own ears. What I want for them to do --

WATSON: Who has left?

MUSTAFA: Mubarak, he's left. That's what he said. That's what I heard. I don't know if it's true or not. What I care about you is, we don't want to fight the army. We cannot fight the army. We want the army on our side. There has to be some kind of, you know, stand- up from the army, a takeover. We don't need his regime, we don't need his vice president, we don't need his ministers, we don't need the public assemblies.

We want the army to help us to make this country clean and get rid of the shame we're in and then help us take revenge for the blood and killings of our people and get our money back.

WATSON: There you go. More comments from Mohamed Mustafa. One of the several thousand demonstrators who gathered here, Isha, right next to this incredible symbol of Hosni Mubarak's power, the presidential palace, an ornate structure of carved white stone and these people gathering here calling for Hosni Mubarak to step down just outside the walls of that palace -- Isha.

SESAY: Ivan Watson, we thank you there from outside the walls of the presidential palace.

Feelings still running very, very high, Randi, and people not backing down.

KAYE: No, certainly not. And this is day 18.

SESAY: Indeed.

KAYE: So we'll see what happens today.

We want to take you back to the area near state TV where Ben Wedeman is once again standing by for us. We do have correspondents all over the region there and we're watching this unfold along with you. So we're taking you back to Ben to get the very latest from the situation there. Ben?

WEDEMAN: Well, what we see is this crowd continues to chant Arabic (INAUDIBLE) for go, go, in front of state TV. They can't get to state TV because, of course, there are tanks, barbed wire, soldiers and armored personnel carriers barring their entrance to it.

But it doesn't seem to be stopping the crowd or taking any of its passion away as they chant and chant. Now they are chanting (INAUDIBLE), which means void or illegitimate in Arabic. This is one of these chants we've been hearing now for a good two and a half weeks.

I must say these are scenes that I never imagined I would look at from the balcony of our office where, normally, on a Friday, you would see lots of cars, you would see people on pleasure boats in the Nile, but the last two and a half weeks have seen the utter and complete transformation of Egypt from a somewhat repressed, often unhappy country, to what you see here today, which is part protests, but part people enjoying the nice warm winter afternoon and, of course, protesting against President Hosni Mubarak, a man so many Egyptians seem to be saying they want him to step down now.

KAYE: All right. Our Ben Wedeman for us, watching it all happen from the balcony.

Thank you, Ben.

So how did we get to this point?

SESAY: We'll take a look at how Egypt's uprising has unfolded and keep you up to the minute on where the events are headed. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All we wanted to hear is just he leave. All we want is just he go in peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SESAY: In Egypt right now, a battle of wills and an outpouring of anger. KAYE: Hundreds of thousands of people are in the streets demanding the resignation of President Hosni Mubarak. They expected that announcement, as you know, last night. Instead he shocked the world by saying he would not budge before the September elections.

The vow of defiance has ignited new anger and inspired what may be the largest crowds yet we've seen during this uprising.

SESAY: Well, world leaders and diplomats continue to monitor developments in Egypt, and some are speaking out. French President Nicolas Sarkozy says, "I hope with all of my heart for Egypt's nascent democracy, that they take time to create the structures and principles that will help them find the path of democracy and not another form of dictatorship -- religious dictatorship, like what happened in Iran."

And let's show you what was said by the UN secretary-general, Ban Ki-moon. The secretary-general reiterates his call for a transparent, orderly, and peaceful transition. He's saying he emphasizes that it is for Egyptian people to determine their future. The secretary- general calls again for any transition to fully respect human rights and to ensure genuine and inclusive dialogue with all stakeholders.

KAYE: In a statement released yesterday evening, President Obama said the Egyptian government needs to be clear with its people about what is happening. He urged the Egyptian government to move swiftly to explain the changes that have been made and to spell out in clear and unambiguous language the step-by-step process that will lead to democracy and the representative government that the Egyptian people seek.

The president also had a warning for Egypt's leaders, saying it was imperative they not respond to the aspirations of their people with repression or brutality.

A senior US official tells CNN President Mubarak's refusal to step down caught the US government off-guard. Let's go, now, to CNN's Foreign Affairs Correspondent, Jill Dougherty. She is in Washington for us. Jill, is there anything that the US can really do, at this point, to influence events in Egypt?

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Randi, you'd have to say, objectively, there isn't a whole lot. That statement by President Obama shows that even at this point, the US is not clear about what this arrangement is going to do, how it will work, how it will lead to elections. And so, he was throwing it back right at President Mubarak saying, "Explain it. You need to explain it to your people, and you need to explain it to the world."

So, if you look at levers that the United States has, they're talking directly, of course, with people. They're making statements. But one thing that they could do would be to stop the aid that the United States gives. That's, essentially, military aid and somewhere around a billion to a billion and a half per year. But even that is something that they are reluctant to do.

And there also are triggers. The main trigger would be, legally, if the military were to take over a civilian government, then that could happen. But that's not what's happening here. So I think, honestly, there really isn't a lot that the US can directly do at this point.

KAYE: And how is this all being viewed by others in the region? Certainly, the United States' closest allies, Israel, Saudi Arabia, they're all watching this. Where do they stand on all of this?

DOUGHERTY: Well, Israel is very concerned because, after all, Egypt is one of the few friends that Israel has in the region because in 1979, Egypt signed a peace agreement with Israel. And so, as they look at this, they are very concerned about what could come next.

In fact, I was looking at a statement by Ehud Barak, the defense minister, saying we need to give some time. We hope that Egypt gets some time to coalesce, and that it doesn't fall into the hands of extremists.

And then, on the Saudis, there are a lot of different aspects. They're very concerned. They're concerned about stability, because they have some of the same problems that the Egyptians did. And of course, there would be concern that what happened to President Mubarak could happen to the -- to King Abdullah.

But there's another, more complex one, which is Egypt is really in the center. A kind of a balance for that entire region. And as Egypt weakens, the other major power in that region, of course, is Iran. And so, there is grave concern in Saudi Arabia that Iran will start to exert more influence.

And then, another thing, Randi, is they are losing some of their faith in the United States, that the United States is letting Mubarak go.

KAYE: And Mubarak, as we know, has been a great ally, many have said, to the United States and certainly to Israel. Jill Dougherty, we'll have to leave it there. Thank you.

SESAY: Well, the shouting from the street is loud. The message to Hosni Mubarak is "leave." But it seems the Egyptian president is not ready to abdicate the top office yet.

KAYE: Next, we're going to talk with a former Egyptian ambassador, Daniel Kurtzer, to get his unique, firsthand account on the inner circle inside the Egyptian government

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are witnessing history unfold. It's a moment of transformation that's taking place because the people of Egypt are calling for change.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SESAY: President Barack Obama, there. But some news just coming into us here at CNN that we want to share with you. We're getting word that there are massive demonstrations taking place right now in Alexandria, Egypt. We don't have any more than that in terms of it being described as massive. We don't have actual numbers.

But another piece of information to bring you there is that there is, indeed, a military presence there amongst the protesters, and TV reports that we have been monitoring are showing that soldiers are actually handing out food to the protesters. So it would seem, at this point, the interaction between the protesters and the military there at that protest in Alexandria appears, right now, to be friendly.

That is the latest we're getting. A massive demonstration underway right now in Alexandria. We know that there are demonstrations underway in several locations in Cairo itself. That is the latest news just coming into us here at CNN. We're going to work to bring you some more information on what's happening there in Alexandria, so stay with us for that.

KAYE: And the man at the center of this uprising, of course, is Egypt's president. As reports flooded in yesterday throughout the day, assertions grew strong, and then stronger that the Egyptian leader would be stepping down. The only one it seems, not convinced, was Hosni Mubarak himself.

Daniel Kurtzer is the former ambassador to Egypt. Good to see you, sir. You've seen firsthand the inner workings of the Egyptian government. So, how do you think this all unfolded yesterday? We have the opposition, Mohamed ElBaradei, tweeting that it was almost over, the protesters celebrating. One organizer, a key organizer, writing "Mission accomplished." So, how did this happen, and what do you think was happening behind the scenes?

DANIEL KURTZER, FORMER US AMBASSADOR TO EGYPT: Good morning. Randi, first of all, I have it on authoritative terms from Egypt that Mubarak is, in fact, in Sharm el-Sheikh. There are a lot of rumors to this effect, but he is at the hotel that he normally stays at in Sharm, which effectively means that he's no longer in minute-to- minute, day-to-day control of the Egyptian government.

The army, this morning, is admitting to itself that it really messed up the rollout of what was supposed to be an orderly set of arrangements which would be convincing that Mubarak was no longer in charge.

The quite extraordinary development yesterday in which the army issued communique number one, effectively telling the population that it was going to be in charge of the transition period. There was supposed to be this statement by Mubarak that the army hoped would be understood to be the handing over of most powers, except those that specifically the constitution reserves to the president.

And then, there was supposed to be a statement by Vice President Suleiman trying to calm down everybody and suggesting that people go home and go back to work.

KAYE: Right.

KURTZER: But the army now knows that this was a public relations disaster. There is an effort under way to try to figure out how to deal with this, but the immediate crisis on the streets may, in fact, overtake even this effort.

KAYE: So, you -- I want to get back to what you were saying about Mubarak's whereabouts. You're saying he is now in Sharm el- Sheikh, effectively has handed over control of Egypt to his vice president, then, Omar Suleiman?

KURTZER: That's right. I have it from a very authoritative source that he is in Sharm, not just on his way there. He's not at some palace, he stays at a hotel when he's there, and he has, in effect, checked into that hotel.

And what that's done, effectively, is to take him out of the decision loop. Remember the visual image yesterday of that senior military council that said that it was going to be meeting in permanent session. That's the image that the Egyptian army wants to convey to the public to be convincing that it is in charge of events in Egypt now.

KAYE: So, what then, is happening now? How often do you expect he'll be in touch with his vice president? And how much impact will he have on the decisions that are made right now, certainly related to the protesters in that square?

KURTZER: Well, Randi, given the fact they made such a mess of it yesterday, it's hard to know if they really have learned how to deal with the very sensitive public relations side of this. It would be best if, in fact, one saw very little of Mubarak over the next few days, if the army, not only on the streets, but also on television, were to continue to convey this sense that it is in charge and that it will meet the demands of the protesters.

You already saw this morning in the second communique from the army it knows that the emergency regulations, which have been right at the center of the demonstrator demands, will h have to be lifted. But the army still wants to see that happen after the demonstrators go home.

So, there is this period of feeling out how far the army needs to go in order to meet the demands, but, again, public relations here has been a huge factor, and it has really challenged the army's efforts to try to assert control.

KAYE: Former ambassador to Egypt, Daniel Kurtzer, thank you for your time.

KURTZER: Thanks, Randi.

KAYE: Isha. SESAY: Well, CNN crews are at every point of this crisis. Let's get back to the epicenter of the protests. Our own Frederik Pleitgen is in Cairo and nearby Tahrir Square. Fred, describe what you are seeing and hearing. Set the scene for us.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Isha, what I'm seeing is that basically this entire part of downtown Cairo has been taken over by the anti-Mubarak protesters. You will see Tahrir Square, of course, absolutely packed and filled. As I have been saying, it's the largest crowd I have seen here since these demonstrations started.

But also, we are see a lot of these protesters and protest marches go back and forth between Tahrir Square and the information ministry which is just a couple blocks away. That, of course, is one of the most hated institutions in this entire country. A lot of people not happy with the state-run media. And there's a large demonstration in front of that building; there's also a lot of military presence there.

It's a very peaceful demonstration at this point. At one point, demonstrators tried to take down barbed wire to get closer to the ministry, but however, the military wasn't very happy for that and immediately the protesters backed down. So, it seems as though the protesters and the soldiers are still very much on the same page as far as sort of keeping the peace within this demonstration as far as keeping order in these demonstrations. And it really is, I have to say, a very, very, peaceful scene which is quite remarkable considering how angry people were yesterday when they heard that speech by Hosni Mubarak, Isha.

SESAY: Indeed. That was my next point that I wanted us to bring out for our viewers. Yesterday, ahead of that speech, there was scenes of jubilation, drumming, dancing and singing in the square. Afterwards there was, of course, that bitter, bitter disappointment when the president did not utter the words that he was going to be stepping down. They may be peaceful, but I'm trying to get a sense of today how angry they are or they still are.

PLEITGEN: Well, they are absolutely angry. I saw those same scenes as well. You know, I came to Tahrir Square shortly before Hosni Mubarak's speech yesterday. And people were telling me this is the new birth of the new Egypt, this is the birth of freedom in Egypt. And then as the speech was dragging on and he obviously wasn't saying that he was going to resign, people became very, very angry. And they remained angry.

But if you look at the scene now, as I said, it is still a very peaceful scene. One of the reasons I think is the people here realize if this protest turns violent, it will diminish the power of the message they are trying to send. And that's something people told me yesterday. They said under no circumstances can this turn violent, and it's interesting. Today, also, at some points, you see protesters starting tochant very loudly and it seems as things might be getting out of control, but then there's other protesters say in Arabic, "peaceful, peaceful," and everything seems to sort of calm down. So, I think the people here are very smart and they are very well aware of the fact that their message comes across much more powerfully if it's nonviolent than if it is. And certainly, there were a lot of times when all of this could have turned violent, when people were very, very angry, when there were confrontations at certain buildings like the information ministry right now. But by and large -- or totally -- this has stayed absolutely peaceful, and that is why their message is still in the foreground, rather than riots which haven't taken place so far, Isha.

SESAY: Frederik Pleitgen looking on at the scenes there in Cairo. Fred, we appreciate it. Thank you.

KAYE: And of course, we will watch the live pictures there in Egypt, in Tahrir Square. We're going to take a quick break. But when we come back, we will talk with an expert on the Middle East, Fawaz Gerges, who actually Mubarak's speech yesterday his most defiant moment. So, we will talk with him about that and see what he thinks about what the next few days might hold for the uprising in Egypt. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: And this just in to CNN. We want to tell you we have a statement from state TV in Egypt telling us that an urgent statement from the office of the president should be coming shortly. Once again, an urgent statement from the office of the president. We don't know what that statement will be. But we can tell you that we have confirmed that President Hosni Mubarak is in Sharm el-Sheikh. We are told that he may possibly be staying -- one of our guests just a moment ago told us he may be possibly staying in a hotel there. Maybe not a palace, as some have suggested but a well-placed source with close connections to the government has confirmed to CNN that that is where Hosni Mubarak is right now.

Isha?

SESAY: Randi, this is, of course, a fast-moving story. A lot of developments. Let's talk about what the next few days could be like. I'm pleased to say joining me now is Fawaz Gerges. He is a professor of Middle Eastern politics and international relations at the London School of Economics.

Great to talk to you again, Fawaz. We are getting this word now that President Mubarak has left Cairo and has gone to Sharm el-Sheikh. Give me your sense how you are reading the calculations made by President Mubarak at this time?

FAWAZ GERGES, PROFESSOR OF MIDEAST POLTICS, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: The fact he is in Sharm el-Sheikh is quite, very natural. President Mubarak spends most of his time in Sharm el-Sheikh. Hardly any time in Cairo.

I think the big story is the following. I think, in my opinion, is that President Mubarak has decided to fly to the end. He's not going anywhere. And what's really most alarming is not he has made up his mind, but the army seems to support Mubarak and vice president Omar Suleiman. Even though the army has made it very clear it will not shed Egyptian blood. It will not suppress the protesters. But the army seems to be on the same page with President Mubarak and vice president Suleiman.

In particular, the last 48 hours have clarified where the army stands. The army supports the transition from President Mubarak to Suleiman, and the army supports an orderly and peaceful transition headed by President Mubarak and General Suleiman.

This is not good news for the protesters. And as you have seen, you have millions of Egyptians who have basically been calling for the president to step down. The reality is as long as the army supports, President Mubarak, Mubarak will remain in Egypt at least, at least until September.

SESAY: Fawez, stand by for me for just a moment, if you will because I want to bring in Ivan Watson, who is there near the presidential palace where the news of President Mubarak's departure to Sharm el-Sheikh is trickling in. I want to get some sense of reaction.

Ivan, what are people saying and how are they reacting?

WATSON: Well, Isha, when I last spoke to you just a few minutes ago, there were 3,000 people gathered peacefully outside the walls of the presidential palace here. And then a roar went up through the crowd as thousands of people, thousands on foot are streaming up the boulevard from Tahrir Square. Just a river of people really coming up here just to the gates of the ornate presidential palace, a symbol of power of Hosni Mubarak.

The size of the demonstration here doubling and tripling in a matter of minutes as people, throngs, what was once a symbol of power of a man who has moved this country for nearly 30 years. So, a pretty dramatic change in the approach of this protest movement which has, prior to this, really been focused on Tahrir Square, located many miles away.

SESAY: Ivan, stand by for us. We're going to come back to you. I want to go back to Professor Fawez Gerges there, who is standing by in London. Professor Gerges, celebratory it would people at the thought of President Mubarak in Sharm el-Sheikh and the significance of all of that, but we still remain in the standoff. Where do we go from here?

GERGES: Yesterday, the poor chaps were celebrating as well. The likelihood that president Mubarak leaving Egypt and basically resigning. President Mubarak's departure to Sharm el-Sheikh does not change the order of things. President Mubarak usually spends most of his time in Sharm el-Sheikh. And in such a situation, you would expect the military to send him to Sharm el-Sheikh for security reasons.

As long as president Mubarak is the figurehead, the leader of Egypt, as long as vice president Omar Suleiman takes orders from President Mubarak, as long as the power structure remains in place, as long as the Mubarak regime itself is in place, I fear that the protesters' fundamental goal -- remember, what is the fundamental goal of the protesters? The rallying cry (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE). The people would like to get rid of their regime, not just Mubarak. It seems to me the key to resolving this particular deadly embrace is the army and, unfortunately, everything that we have seen in the last 48 hours tells me that the armies supports the power structure, the economic structure, the Mubarak regime, at least the orderly transitional process headed by President Mubarak and Omar Suleiman.

SESAY: So, what are we looking at here in terms of real change, real reform?

GERGES: Well, I think as long as -- I mean, I would like to be blunt here. As long as President Mubarak and the regime remain in place, you're going to see very minor changes, very minor changes.

This particular man has been in power for 30 years. Even the senior ranks of the offices have a vast interest in the power structure, and that is why the protesters are absolutely correct, Isha. As long as the regime itself remains in place, as long as President Mubarak remains at the helm, don't expect substantive changes in Egypt. And that is why they are insisting, not just on President Mubarak leaving the scene, but the entire regime as well.

SESAY: I'm interested in your read of the fact that President Mubarak and his vice president, Omar Suleiman, have been keen to play up this point of foreign interference and people coming in to meddle in the affairs of Egypt.

How do you read that? I mean, who are they speaking to there? Because, obviously, the people in Tahrir Square know who they are.

GERGES: You're right. You know, Isha, from day one, more than two weeks ago, President Mubarak said the first day, he said the protesters are basically Muslim Brothers extremists. He tried to use scare tactics in order to scare the Western powers of the United States that the protesters are nothing but an extension of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Muslim Brotherhood, as you know, is the most powerful religious oriented movement.

Since then, Mubarak and Omar Suleiman in their speeches yesterday, as you well know, they blamed the protest and the social revolution on subversive elements. Meaning Iran and other militants and on satellite stations, including us at CNN and various stations who are basically inciting the Egyptian people.

It tells you -- what does it tell you? It tells you that the regime, the Mubarak regime, is really disconnected from reality. Is clueless, out of it. Is there a huge disconnect between the regime itself and the people. Neither Mubarak, I fear, nor Suleiman appreciates the gravity of the crisis.

The crisis is very serious and that's why everything they have done is basically taking baby steps as opposed to really trying to address the legitimate concerns of the Egyptian people, a transitional open society, transparent elections, lifting the emergency laws, constitutional changes, moving Egypt from an oppressive authoritarian regime to an open and pluralistic society.

SESAY: No doubt about it. This is a regime with credibility issues.

Professor Fawaz Gerges, I'm going to ask you to stand by for us if you will. There's a lot more to talk about. We're going to come back to you shortly -- Randi.

KAYE: And as we mentioned before, we are still waiting for a statement from the office of the President. We don't know what type of statement this going to be but we do know that President Hosni Mubarak is now in Sharm el-Sheik that is according to a well-placed source with close connections the Egyptian government.

So we'll keep an eye on that. We'll wait for that statement and we'll bring it to you as soon as we can.

In the meantime, we'll take a quick break.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's trying to deceive the people over again. We don't trust him we have to start chanting and we will never get back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: And welcome back.

We've been watching the crowds across Egypt. Certainly the largest crowd, I think, that we have seen in the -- in the 18 days of protesting. We -- we have been able to confirm this morning that President Hosni Mubarak is in Sharm el-Sheikh; sources close to the government telling CNN that, confirming that for us. We're not sure what type of communication he is having right now --

(CROSS TALK)

SESAY: Yes.

KAYE: -- with his Vice President or the government that remains there in Cairo.

But we do know that. And we're also waiting on -- on some type of statement from the office of the president. Maybe we'll get more information when we get back.

SESAY: Yes, indeed. Everyone is waiting to hear what more light can be shed on the power structure as it were there in Egypt. We know the president has ceded some power to his Vice President; that we are hearing that Omar Suleiman, the Vice President, is a de facto head of state right now.

But it will be interesting to see what more light can be shed by this statement coming from the office of the president.

Some other developments to share with you: the fact that, of course, we are seeing these very large crowds there in Tahrir Square, but we are also getting word here at CNN of a massive demonstration in Alexandria.

We don't have a sense of the size and how to measure it up in terms of numbers. But we can tell you that according to TV images that we have been monitoring here at CNN there is a military presence. But right now it's interacting in a friendly manner with those protesters. In fact, they've been handing out food.

KAYE: Food. Which is really surprising.

SESAY: Which is very surprising, considering the fact that a lot still hangs on the military, people are looking for them to make a decisive decision.

KAYE: Right, the military really trying to walk this fine line between President Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian government and the opposition and the protesters that we're seeing there in the Square.

So we'll -- we'll have to see how that all unfolds, of course, but it is interesting that the military is -- is providing food to those protesters.

Meanwhile, Egyptian media is a state property controlled by that government. "Daily News" Egypt reporters Sarah Sargani has been monitoring those transmissions.

SESAY: And she's also on the street where she took this dramatic video showing thousands on the street leading to the presidential palace. We're going talk to her next.

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SESAY: Welcome back, everyone.

A fast-moving day there in Egypt as we continue to monitor the uprising, the crisis at play. Crowds gathered outside of state- run TV there in Cairo, Nile TV; huge crowds in Tahrir Square as well. We're showing you those images of Tahrir Square that's become something of a tent city.

But a short time ago we got these images just coming in to us, some dramatic scenes, Randi, close to state-run TV, that we're not entirely sure what is going on. So let's go straight to Ben Wedeman who is in that vicinity and try and get some more explanation as to what he's seeing and hearing.

Ben, what's going on?

WEDEMAN: Yes, Isha, what you saw in those pictures was -- what appears to be a senior military officer, coming through the crowd. They were all chanting, "the people and the army are one," and that is, of course, a chant we've been hearing quite a lot. Indicative of, you know, the continued support the demonstrators have for the army and the hope they've expressed time and time again that the army would somehow step in, somehow help lead to the ouster of President Hosni Mubarak who really is the focus of today's massive demonstrations across Cairo in Tahrir Square, here outside state television, where you see thousands of people.

Now, let me explain what you're looking at now. This, of course, it says as you see in the English, Egypt on the left, and on the right in Arabic, and on the lower right-hand side it says "Arhal" which is Arabic for "leave."

And this is actually a model of an Egyptian license plate. On the left-hand side it says 80 million, indicating that what is said, what the message is, is that 80 million Egyptians are saying Hosni Mubarak, "Arhal" -- leave.

And so I think we have about 10,000 people, if not more, in front of state television there, being prevented from actually reaching the building by at least ten tanks, armored personnel carriers, a barbed wire fence and hundreds of soldiers as well.

In addition to this demonstration, there's another demonstration outside Aruba Palace (ph) in the eastern edge of Cairo, one of the residents of President Hosni Mubarak. What we've seen is a real massive outpouring, Isha, of sentiment, of a continued and intensifying demand for President Hosni Mubarak to step down from office -- Isha.

SESAY: All right, Ben, stand by for us. We appreciate the insight into the scenes taking place there outside state TV. We're going to come back to you shortly. Stand by for us.

KAYE: It's so interesting, Isha, to see how the people there around state TV and even in Tahrir Square react to the military.

SESAY: Yes.

KAYE: Given the military support which apparently remains for President Hosni Mubarak. We'll continue to watch those pictures, not only at state TV but also in Tahrir Square and also at some other protests that are taking place around Egypt.

We'll have more for you right after a break.

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