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Standoff in Madison, Wisconsin; Libya Warning: Unity or War; Tattoos and Your Job; Gas Prices: Up, Up and Away; Concealed Guns on Campus
Aired February 21, 2011 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: When I say there is no movement in the labor right standoff in Wisconsin, I mean no movement. Teachers and public workers and lots of their supporters are standing their ground in the Wisconsin state capital, while Democratic state senators remain out of state to hold up a vote that they are certain to lose.
At issue, still, is what the new Republican governor calls a budget repair bill. It would sharply raise most public workers' contributions to their health care and pension funds and limit collective bargaining to only wages. Other union powers and perks will be stripped. And therein lies the heart of the controversy, and it's not unique to Wisconsin.
CNN's Casey Wian has been covering the protests for days now. He's with us by phone from Madison.
And Casey, we understand that the governor has scheduled a news conference for later today. And I'm wondering, is that a sign that maybe we might see some movement after all?
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I guess "perhaps" is the word, Marty. We're probably trying to find out what the governor is going to talk about, but so far we haven't been able to get any information on that. I can tell you this -- he held a news conference on Friday, and we thought perhaps there would be some movement on this issue, but he defiantly said, "I am not going to negotiate with these unions until -- I'm not going to talk about this issue until the absentee lawmakers have returned to the state," those Democrats who left the state, basically holding up his legislation.
What's happening outside the state capitol right now is a small number of protestors circling the state capitol, people who are upset about this proposed bill that would strip the public employee unions of many of their collective bargaining rights. And I'm standing outside because inside is where all the action is.
If I was standing inside the state capitol, and perhaps we're showing some video of that scene earlier, you wouldn't be able to hear me talk. It's so loud. There are thousands of people in there showing their opposition to this legislation. They're going to be joined by a couple of celebrities, (INAUDIBLE) of Rage Against the Machine, and also Green Bay Packers defensive back Charles Woodson is expected to make an appearance in support of these protestors. The Tea Party leaders say they are here, but we have not seen any of the supporters of the governor that were in evidence over the weekend. Right now we're just waiting to hear what the governor has to say later today to see if there's any movement in this impasse -- Marty.
SAVIDGE: Casey, any idea of how long the protesters plan to keep this up?
WIAN: Indefinitely, they say. They say they're not going to go anywhere until they are assured that the collective bargaining rights of these public employee unions are going do be respected. And even those union members who are not impacted by that, the firefighters and the police, they joined some of these protesters over the weekend, walking in to a dramatic amount of applause. So it doesn't seem like they have any plans to go anywhere anytime soon.
SAVIDGE: And what about those AWOL Democrats? Have they reported in? Anybody know where they are?
WIAN: They have not. We have not heard any change from them. What we're hearing from them is that they are going to stay out. They do feel a sense of accomplishment that they were able to slow this legislation down and give these protesters a chance to have their voices heard over the weekend. I imagine they're waiting to hear what the governor has to say before they'll decide whether they'll come back.
SAVIDGE: Yes, a lot of waiting. Casey Wian in the thick of it there in Madison.
Thanks very much.
Well, we are also closely following the situation in Libya today. It's a fast-moving story, so let me bring you the very latest developments.
The U.S. State Department is telling nonessential personnel and families of embassy employees to leave Libya now. For his part, U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon is warning Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi to stop attacking pro-democracy protesters and to respect their basic freedoms. The two spoke by telephone amid reports that Libyan security forces were raiding so-called "nests of destruction" and warning citizens to cooperate.
As in Iran, it is nearly impossible to do any independent reporting in the land that Gadhafi has ruled single-handedly since 1969. This, by the way, is amateur video of violent protests yesterday in Tripoli, the Libyan capital. Benghazi, to the east, Libya's second largest city, apparently has fallen to anti-government protesters. One of Gadhafi's son went on state TV yesterday to offer "radical democratic reforms," but only if the uprising ends. Otherwise, he warned of a civil war a thousand times worse than in Libya's neighbors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAIF AL-ISLAM GADHAFI, SON OF PRESIDENT MOAMMAR GADHAFI (through translator): We're not Egypt. We're not Tunisia. We will have weapons. Everyone has access to weapons.
Instead of crying over 84 killed people, we'll be crying over thousands. Blood will flow, rivers of blood, in all the cities of Libya.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: CNN's Ivan Watson is joining us now. He's been following the story from Cairo.
And Ivan, we're just hearing that gun ships are firing on protesters.
IVAN WATSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Very disturbing reports of one opposition activist outside of Libya with extensive contacts inside telling us that helicopter gun ships have been opening fire on demonstrators. And as you mentioned, not only are these fast-paced events taking place in Libya, but, Martin, it's so hard to figure out what's going on there because there seems to be a near-complete telecommunications blockade, especially to Tripoli, the capital.
We cannot get through to our sources there on the phone and we've been denied visas by the Libyan government to go in and visit. But the signs that we're getting from outside, and from the tantalizing tidbits of information, Martin, suggest that the 42-year-old regime of Moammar Gadhafi is fighting for its life and perhaps using very bloody tactics to stay in power.
The reports of helicopter gun ships and then statements coming from ambassadors and the justice minister who have either resigned or broken with Moammar Gadhafi publicly. Take a listen to what the deputy ambassador of Libya to the United Nations said to television cameras just a few hours ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IBRAHIM DABBASHI, LIBYAN DEP. AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: Until now, there are more than 60 people killed, according to the information we get. But I am sure that the number is much higher than this. We are expecting real genocide in Tripoli. The airplanes are still bringing the (INAUDIBLE) to the airports.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATSON: Martin, another strange development. A few hours ago, two Libyan air force fighter jets landed on the island nation of Malta, which is less than 250 miles from the Libyan coast. And we've now heard from a source inside Libya telling CNN -- inside Malta rather -- that the pilots defected because they were ordered to bomb their own citizens, and that those two fighter planes, their machineguns, were loaded for battle, and that they were carrying explosives, bombs as well -- Martin.
SAVIDGE: That is interesting. All right. We'll continue to stay in touch and get more information later. Thanks very much.
(NEWSBREAK)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAVIDGE: Where has the time gone? We are now less than a year away from the first contest in the 2012 presidential race, and there's a whole host of possible contenders already jockeying for position on the Republican side. That's not the case though for Democrats. But the lack of party competition may not be all it's cracked up to be.
CNN Senior White House Correspondent Ed Henry takes a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Call it the power of the presidency, especially that 416-ton taxpayer-financed jet that helps you rally voters, rake in millions, and grab headlines from coast to coast.
JACK QUINN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: When he goes into local markets -- and you've been all over with him -- he sucks all the oxygen out of the air.
HENRY: Allowing President Obama to road-test a potential 2012 campaign slogan popping up on new T-shirts that say "We Do Big Things."
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We can do what this moment demands and focus on what's necessary for America to win the future.
HENRY: But incumbency also has a downside.
ED GILLESPIE, REPUBLICAN POLITICAL STRATEGIST: They do bad things, and the policies they have imposed have not helped us get unemployment down to where it ought to be.
HENRY: The candidate of hope and change in 2008 was largely a blank slate. Now he has to defend a controversial record, which is why he tried to hit the reset button and focus on jobs in his State of the Union. But the crisis in Egypt is a reminder sometimes incumbents set the agenda. Other times it gets set for them.
OBAMA: Our hearts are broken. And yet our hearts also have reason for fullness.
HENRY: While the Tucson tragedy was also out of the president's control, he rose to the occasion and his approval rating has been on the rise, now hitting an impressive 55 percent. At this point in their presidencies, Ronald Reagan was only at 37 percent. Bill Clinton was at 47 percent. But after suffering big midterm election losses, they were both reelected easily.
This president has learned lessons from Reagan and Clinton and has made key adjustments after last November's shellacking, shaking up his staff and moving to the center on issues like tax cuts.
QUINN: In order to move forward, he had to do that deal. And I certainly don't think he caved.
HENRY: Some liberals bitterly disagree, but so for there's no sign of a serious primary challenge to the president. And he may also be helped by the Republicans' muddled field so far. But Ed Gillespie argues that tough competition could help the GOP, just like the Democratic primary of 2008.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Shame on you, Barack Obama!
HENRY: While the pundits warned that the long drama of Clinton v. Obama would hurt the party, just the opposite happened.
(on camera): And it made Obama better.
GILLESPIE: And it made Obama -- when he emerged as the nominee, he was a stronger nominee for it.
HENRY (voice-over): By 2012, the president will have had four years of hand-to-hand combat, this time with Republicans. The big question now is whether those battles have once again made him a stronger nominee.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SAVIDGE: All right. Let's bring Ed Henry in here now from the White House.
And Ed, what do the president's travel plans tell us?
HENRY: Well, you know, it's interesting. He's going to be going to Cleveland tomorrow. He's been hitting states like Pennsylvania, Wisconsin.
Now, what do they all have in common? They are big, big battlegrounds in 2012. And so while he's conducting official business at all of these stops, the fact of the matter is he has at least one eye already on 2012.
And it's no accident that the White House scheduling team is picking all these states. Michigan is another one he hit a couple weeks ago. These are all big battlegrounds he has to have in 2012. And so while he's certainly focused on the business of the country, he's got at least one eye on that big race in 2012 as well -- Marty.
SAVIDGE: All right. Cleveland's my hometown, you know.
Hey, does the president already have a full reelection team in place?
HENRY: Well, not quite yet, but he's got the pieces that are certainly ready to go. You know, David Axelrod left the White House just a few weeks ago, as well as Jim Messina, who was the deputy chief of staff. We expect both of them in the weeks ahead are going to play major roles, move to Chicago. Axelrod, of course, is from there, but Messina is going to move there, and they're going to be running the campaign in various roles. And, you know, it was interesting to me that this morning, "The Washington Post" had this big profile of Mike Huckabee, who basically said he's not sure if he's going to run. And one factor is the fact that he thinks President Obama is going to be a lot tougher to beat than a lot of Republicans think.
He had this one quote saying that it could end up being a demolition derby for Republicans, because whoever emerges on that side will be "bloody, bruised and broke." And so you heard Ed Gillespie in my piece saying that the competition may make the eventual Republican nominee better, but there are others like Huckabee who are wondering if it's going to smash each other up and leave the incumbent in a very, very strong position -- Marty.
SAVIDGE: All right. Ed Henry at the White House, where they're obviously doing a little maintenance today. All right.
HENRY: Yes, a little demolition here.
SAVIDGE: I see. Thanks very much. Appreciate it.
HENRY: Good to see you.
SAVIDGE: Are tattoos ruining your career? We take a look at both sides of that debate right after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAVIDGE: Millions of Americans have them -- we're talking about tattoos -- and many are in visible locations on the body. But some employers may still have their doubts.
Stephanie Elam takes on both sides.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When Renee Jennings interviewed for her job at a Brooklyn real estate office, she kept the six tattoos on her arms covered.
RENEE JENNINGS, EMPLOYEE, REALTY ON THE GREENE: Obviously, with tattoos you can't go into an office unless you're applying for something that requires you to be tattooed. You can't walk into an office that way. So I have on a full business suit.
ELAM: Once she had the job though, the jacket came off and the tattoos came out.
JENNINGS: I think that when I begin to speak and I begin to communicate with people, they understand that I'm more than just tattoos.
ELAM: Kathryn Lilly is her boss. She says the tattoos have had no impact on Renee's job performance.
KATHRYN LILLY, JENNINGS' BOSS: She does everything well, she promotes the company well. She does everything above and beyond what you would normally expect.
GABRIELLE BARNES, FOUNDER, DIVAS IN THE CITY: Did you write out the prescription for that one?
ELAM: While this boss sees beyond tattoos, some employers may not have the same vision.
ROD KURTZ, AOL SMALL BUSINESS: We like to think we don't judge books by their covers, but the reality is a lot of people do.
ELAM: But there's no doubt tattoos are more mainstream. A 2008 survey showed a quarter of U.S. adults in their 30s and 32 percent of 26-to-29-year-olds have at least one. But it's the placement of body art that could be the issue.
KURTZ: You do have to be careful about that. Again, you want to take into account when you're getting a tattoo in the first place, what kind of job are you in? What kind of career do you want to have?
ELAM: Despite their popularity, visible tattoos could still lead some to question your professionalism.
Gabrielle Barnes was hesitant to hire Renee Jennings as the PR rep for her women's empowerment group.
BARNES: There are professional women in here. And I didn't want them to take us not as seriously because of her tattoos. It made me think it was a bit unprofessional.
ELAM: That concern is not shared by her other boss.
LILLY: If they suddenly get shocked that, here's this woman with tattoos, then that's a fault of theirs. It's not mine or Renee's. That's something that's wrong with them.
JENNINGS: Who I am is who I am. I stand behind my tattoos. I stand behind the decisions that I make.
ELAM: Stephanie Elam, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(WEATHER REPORT)
SAVIDGE: I want to talk to you about the hijacking. I was actually working over the weekend anchoring, and we got the story, four Americans that were hijacked by Somali pirates.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes. Yes. The Adams.
Big boat, 58-foot big, nice Sloop Davidson built in Australia -- like Auckland, New Zealand, area, down there. An amazing ship hijacked at sea. They were on a bible mission, literally 60,000 to 80,000 miles on this ship, on this yacht, already, delivering bibles all over the world. Obviously, if you've gone 60,000 miles, you've gone all over the world.
That was their passion. They split off from a couple other boats one day, and all of a sudden, 250 miles off shore, this ship was hijacked over the weekend.
Now, there are U.S. warships and helicopters following what they believe to be this ship. I'm sure they know, but we're not going to give any ideas because they're not giving us any ideas of what their plans are. But clearly, the U.S. government knows where they are.
SAVIDGE: Yes. I mean, I guess the question would have to be: are they still on board? Have the pirates moved them in all of that?
MYERS: The big thing is not to worry about the boat. They want those four Americans back.
SAVIDGE: Absolutely. Chad Myers, thanks very much.
MYERS: We'll keep you up to date.
SAVIDGE: Yes. Watch those storms.
Well, Libyan pilots defect. You won't believe the orders that they say they were given to carry out. More on that in the story after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAVIDGE: Now, what you missed. Libyan helicopter gunships reportedly firing into the crowds of protestors. That according to the National Front of the Salvation of Libya, that's an opposition group. CNN has been unable to confirm that report independently. Libyans are revolting against the 42-year rule of Moammar Gadhafi.
Reports also say that some members of the Libyan air force defected to Malta today. Meanwhile, Bahrain canceled the Grand Prix race scheduled for next month as anti-government protests and demonstrations continue there. Protests gathered in the Pearl Roundabout today to continue anti-government demonstrations. Hospital sources say that a 20-year-old was shot in the head on Friday and died today.
Officials have confirmed that Raymond Davis is a CIA employee. He's the one accused of shooting and killing two men in Pakistan. The State Department says the man has diplomatic immunity. A Pakistani court ordered Davis to remain in custody for 14 more days.
And crowds continue to gather in Madison, Wisconsin, over that budget that's been proposed by Republican Governor Scott Walker. Walker says that the bill is designed to address the state's deficit. But many state workers claim that it's an attempt to bust their union. Democrat state senators continue their boycott aimed at preventing a vote. Governor Walker will hold a press conference and that will be at 6:00 p.m. Eastern Time today.
A California television news crew got too close for comfort on Sunday as they attempted to cover a memorial service outside an IHOP restaurant where a man that was shot and killed there overnight. When the reporter and photographer moved in, the mourners grew agitated and they turned into an angry mob. The female photographer was knocked to the ground, fortunately not seriously injured, neither was the reporter. No arrest had been made but police say they are looking at those tapes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAVIDGE: He seized power in a military coup in 1969 and Moammar Gadhafi has ruled Libya with an iron fist just about ever since. Now, he's facing the most serious threat to his hold on power. These anti- government protests grow and spread.
Joining me with his take on these dramatic events, CNN international correspondent, Michael Holmes.
Michael, always good to see you.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good to see you.
SAVIDGE: Considering all that's happened in the last 24 hours, the crackdown, the death toll that's been rising, and, of course, we heard Gadhafi's son warning about civil war - it almost seems like civil war has begun already in some cases.
HOLMES: It's a pretty dodgy sort of situation. You can see on the map, wedged in between Tunisia and Egypt, two countries where the leaders have fallen.
Let's talk a little bit about Mr. Gadhafi and who he is -- born actually in the desert. He was actually born out there in the desert in 1942. He's the longest serving leader in both Africa and the Arab world.
As you said, he's ruled for 42 years, since he toppled King Idris I in a bloodless coup. He was only 27 then, a captain. He began planning all of that while he was in military college, got training in Britain, by the way. Interesting he launched the coup in Benghazi, the second biggest city which is where the worst of the protests are being taking place.
Now, the politics are interesting in Libya. Technically, he doesn't rule the country. He set up a system of people's committees that run the show. Of course, obviously, in practice, that's not the case.
One thing that's interesting and you know this in your travels, Marty, the more images you see of a leader in a country, it generally correlates directly with how little social and political freedom there are. And there's a lot of images of Gadhafi in Libya.
SAVIDGE: Yes. We want to know, you know, about him personally. How would you describe his style of leadership? I mean, at times, he's a rather eccentric guy.
HOLMES: That is a good word for him. That's one word for him. You know, he's known for his intolerance of dissent, ruthlessly crashing any hint of opposition -- as you said, flamboyant, eccentric. Remember in trying to set up a Bedouin tent when he went to New York, to the U.N., so he could greet visitors.
But he's also a very skilled equal operator, and people see him that way, too, and stick around this long without being -- you know, he knew when to admit to a responsibility over Lockerbie pay compensations, certainly get back into Western good graces, same with abandoning nuclear aspirations. Still unpredictable in the eyes of most. You know, he hasn't been accepted in the Arab world, so he turned to Africa to try to become the king of kings there in Africa.
SAVIDGE: Yes. You know, I don't know if we always that America actually has a rather bad reputation of dealing with him, if you remember Reagan launching the air raids against
HOLMES: He called him the mad dog of the Middle East.
SAVIDGE: Yes. And after the bombing that took place that killed an American serviceman in Germany. So, it's been a really rocky relationship. U.S. doesn't have much influence there, do we?
HOLMES: No. Britain has a lot more influence than the United States, or dealings with Libya than the United States over certainly recent years. The -- remember the deal in the desert over Lockerbie and sort of growing links with Britain. But not so much the U.S., no.
SAVIDGE: Before I let you, let's talk about Bahrain, the situation that's developing there. It seems to have died down somewhat, but it hasn't gone away.
HOLMES: Yes, it's interesting. You know, the government essentially caving in, if you like, when it comes to the Pearl Square, if you like. And letting the protestors come back in, the military pulled out. It really seems to be an admission that they miscalculated badly when they pushed them out. And, you know, the security forces backfired in a way. The leadership realizing it had to back off, start negotiating, offer concessions.
The protestors, they're feeling a bit emboldened. They're back in there now. They want their demands met before they actually sit down and talk.
The problem for the monarchy is that true democracy, true free and fair elections is likely to lead to a Shia political victory, 70 percent of the population. That is something that is feared not just by the monarchy but feared or let's say not preferred by the U.S. and Saudi Arabia who worry about Iranian influence among the Shia population there.
SAVIDGE: Right. And that's one of the differences between some of the other revolutions we've seen is that religious divide in Bahrain.
HOLMES: And then Libya is almost Sunni, by the way.
SAVIDGE: Can I ask you, real quick, about Morocco?
HOLMES: Sure. Yes.
SAVIDGE: Because, you know, Morocco is a country that we have looked upon as being relatively stable, where they haven't had these sorts of issues. And yet, there's been protest there.
HOLMES: Yes, 350 years of monarchy there in Morocco. And it seems at the moment that there isn't the push to get rid of the monarchy. There are complaints, same complaints we've seen everywhere -- young population, unemployed, feeling disenfranchised, not having to say in politics.
But in Morocco, you're not seeing that push at the moment, anyway, for the overthrow of the monarchy. It still has, it's popular in many ways. In fact, the king claims direct line of descendancy (ph) from the prophet. So, he's actually King Muhammad as well. So, he's -- it's almost seen as sacrilegious to criticize him.
SAVIDGE: Any other nations we ought to keep an eye on in that region?
HOLMES: Still bubbling along in Algeria as well. We're going to keep an eye on what's happening in Algeria. I think Libya is the big one at the moment. Yemen, too, continues to be a concern. So, the whole region -- I mean, saying the other day, it's more -- it's easy to find a country there that's not in turmoil than, you know, one that isn't.
SAVIDGE: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: Yes.
SAVIDGE: Good to see you, my friend.
HOLMES: Good to see you, mate.
SAVIDGE: Always good to have a chat about things on the international side.
HOLMES: Exactly.
SAVIDGE: Appreciate it.
Well, you don't need us to tell you that gas prices are on the rise. But you might be surprised why. We'll tell you, next in the "Big Breakdown."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAVIDGE: In today's "Big Breakdown," big news that's breaking a lot of wallets. I'm talking about gas prices. They are surging, and it does not look like this is going to end anytime soon. The price for a gallon of gasoline has risen 5 cents in the past two weeks according to AAA. The price for regular is now $3.17 a gallon nationwide. That's up 53 cents from more than a year ago when gas as around $2.64 a gallon.
So, why the sudden surge? Look at the headlines. That's Libya we're talking about, the unrest in the region. That part of the world.
Analysts say that despite a surplus of oil supplies, the mounting tension there is to blame for rising prices here. Consider this: Libya holds the largest crude oil reserves in Africa. It produces about 1.6 million barrels of oil a day. According to estimates, the U.S. imported about 80,000 barrels of oil from Libya in 2009.
But as protestors seize there, or they seized cities and towns, they're also threatening to cut oil exports. BP confirmed today it is preparing to evacuate about 140 families and nonessential staff in that country. Experts warn, as long as the volatile situation exists there and in nearby regions, so, too, will sky-high gas prices, unfortunately.
So, just how ugly is it here in the U.S.? Well, take a look, if you must. Hawaii has the highest average price in the nation, at $3.72 a gallon. Wyoming, by comparison, a real steal at just $2.95, all things considered, of course.
Only two states have regular gasoline less than $3 a gallon right now, Wyoming and Missouri.
Well, every day here on this show, we have a segment we called "You Choose." We give you three story headlines and then you voted which one you want to see. Well, the first option answers to the age-old question of why do toddlers throw tantrums? Your second option, a woman goes on a hunger strike for a ticket to the royal wedding. Your final option, oral sex boosts cancer risk.
Head to Ali's blog, CNN.com/Ali to vote. We'll bring you the winning story in about 10 minutes. Once again, go cast your vote at CNN.com/Ali.
Concealed weapons on college campuses. Texas is moving closer to letting students arm themselves for class. Our "Stream Team" weighs in on that, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAVIDGE: It's time for our "Stream Team." We are talking about guns on college campuses.
In Texas, the legislature is moving closer to approving a new law that would allow students and teachers to carry concealed weapons. Right now, that is only allowed in Utah and Colorado. But in Texas, it means half a million students could soon begin packing heat, along with their history books.
Every day, we invite wonderfully opinionated people with different backgrounds and specialties to weigh in on our topic of the day. So, with us today is Rachel Sklar; radio host Ben Ferguson; and author Nick Ragone, who you see earlier. He's back with us.
And, Rachel, let me start with you. What do you think of the idea of Texas allowing students to carry guns?
RACHEL SKLAR, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, MEDIAITE.COM: Well, let me start off by saying I'm from Canada, so the whole Second Amendment culture is already something for me to get used to. But I can't see how students would feel safer knowing that students around there might have guns with them. I just -- I think that if the issue is wanting to make college campuses safer, that we must be permitting guns, that this is at the very least unconcealed handguns, and we should be like everybody should know who has a gun, there should be a very high threshold for those permitted to carry a gun.
SAVIDGE: All right. So, Rachel -- OK, we got it, Rachel. You're opposed to it.
Let me give Ben a chance because we're going to run out of time and I want to get a lot talk about this.
Ben, what do you think?
BEN FERGUSON, RADIO HOST, "THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW": Look, you've had 231 innocent people die in school shootings since 1966 with the Texas massacre where this all started. I personally have been a victim of gun crime. I've had a gun put to my head. I've had someone shoot at me. And if I didn't have a permit to carry, didn't have a gun with me that day when it was a gang initiation, I wouldn't be sitting here today.
So, you can always be fearful of the gun and assume that -- well, it can make the problem worse. I'm living proof that it can actually make the problem go away by protecting yourself. And when you see these massacres that happen at Virginia Tech, when you see what happens in Texas or all these other schools where 231 people died, guess what? Less than 10 percent of the shooters were ever stopped by the police or law enforcement with a gun. At that point, they either fled or they turned the gun on themselves after they accomplish their mission which was to kill people.
So, yes, in Utah and in Texas, these people are going to class. They obviously want to have a better life and they want to protect themselves while they're doing it. I don't have a problem with it.
SAVIDGE: All right, Ben, obviously, your opinions are backed up by a very strong personal situation you went through.
Nick, your thoughts here.
NICK RAGONE, AUTHOR, "PRESIDENTIAL LEADERSHIP": Well, look, I'm an advocate for the Second Amendment, but I agree with Rachel on this. I think the idea of mixing the stress of college life and tests and social circles with, obviously, the drinking and occasional drug use that goes on in college with then carrying concealed guns just seems like an awful, awful recipe. I mean, it sounds like a terrible idea.
And I agree with Rachel as well. I think there's other ways to make campuses safe -- I mean, through having stronger social services, intervening when it looks like students are troubled or struggling. But just carrying a concealed weapon on a college environment does not sound like a recipe for success.
SAVIDGE: Yes, go ahead, Ben. But I will say this, Ben --
FERGUSON: Yes, with all due respect
SAVIDGE: -- the one thing I will point out is college campuses are notorious for wild behavior. We know about the problems of binge drinking. We do know about the problems of drug abuse.
FERGUSON: But not in the classroom. Not in the classroom. You're talking about extracurricular, after --activities after school at 11:00, 12:00, 1:00, 2:00, 3:00 in the morning. I mean, you could say the same thing that there could -- you could claim there's violence with adults or young adults with domestic abuse. But it usually doesn't happen at work or in the middle of the day in front of their kids.
So -- I mean, look at Utah. Has there been a school shooting since they allowed kids to take school -- guns to school after they get a permit? The answer is unequivocally no. It didn't happen there and it's not going to happen probably in Texas and you're certainly not going to have a massacre because of this.
SKLAR: I wouldn't call that statistically valid.
FERGUSON: It's the one place we haven't -
(CROSSSTALK)
SAVIDGE: Hold on, Ben. Hold on. Let Rachel speak here.
Well, Ben, let me ask you this, because we do know that you're obviously quite strong in this. You mentioned that the kids are going to have it or they'll have the guns apparently, but in the classroom, but what -- they won't take them when they go partying? Am I supposed to believe that?
FERGUSON: Let me say this -- if they're going to take the guns when they go partying, the they're the same kid you're talking about around this country that would have a permit to carry. I mean, you can't -- you can't have it both ways here. If you have a permit to carry, how often does a person that has a permit to carry go out and party or do drugs and kill people? Trust me, we didn't hear about it every time it happens. And guess what? It doesn't happen.
Crazy people, however, do get a gun and crazy people get guns without going to get a permit.
SKLAR: (INAUDIBLE) go out on the limb and say that (INAUDIBLE) statistic at my fingertips. SAVIDGE: All right. You know what? We're going to have to pretty much -- we're going to have to end it there. I have to thank all three of you because we're just about running out of time.
It's a subject -- you know, gun control is one that always brings up a lot of discussion. And we never have enough time. Thanks to all three of my panel members for talking about it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks for having us.
Well, time now for a CNN political update.
And busy Presidents' Day for some possible 2012 candidates.
CNN deputy political director Paul Steinhauser joins me now from Washington -- Paul.
PAUL STEINHAUSER, CNN DEPUTY POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Hey, Marty. I guess Presidents' Day, it's appropriate to talk about some who may want to be president.
Let's start with Haley Barbour. He is the governor of Mississippi, somebody who's thinking about running for the White House in Republican side. Where is he today? Iowa, meeting with state party officials and with some lawmakers as well.
How about Tim Pawlenty, the former governor of Minnesota? Another guy who's thinking about making that bid for the White House. He, today, is in Nevada.
And former senator from Pennsylvania, Rick Santorum, today in South Carolina.
Marty, what do all three states have in common? Well, pretty crucial in the race for the White House. They're all pretty high on the kind of kickoff the presidential primary and caucus calendar. So, we'll keep an eye on all three of these men.
Tomorrow morning, we've got two new books coming out and these are interesting. There may be more than just books here. Maybe more than just selling books.
You've got Mike Huckabee, former governor of Arkansas. Remember, he ran for the White House last time around, thinking about maybe doing it again. Well, Huckabee's book tour takes for his book, "A Simple Government," takes him into some of those crucial early voting states as well.
And Scott Brown, senator of Massachusetts, Republican, he's got a new book coming out as well. It's called "Against All Odds," talks about his big victory last year to fill the seat of the late Senator Ted Kennedy. And remember, Brown is up for reelection next year and people think his book tour may be the kickoff -- the unofficial kickoff of his reelection bid -- Marty.
SAVIDGE: You know, you mentioned Huckabee there. He also came out and said that he really thinks that President Obama could be a tough candidate to go up against. It's not going to be a pushover.
STEINHAUSER: Yes. He made some comments this morning talking that same -- that Obama could be pretty strong. We're going to see if Huckabee is going to run or not. He says he'll make his decision later this year, Marty.
SAVIDGE: Yes, I want to move on to Chicago politics. There are always -- there are always good stories to tell from there. Rahm Emanuel is expected to, what, win handily?
STEINHAUSER: Yes. The polls indicate that Emanuel is an overwhelming front-runner in tomorrow's election for mayor there in Chicago. What is the big drama? The drama is going to be -- will he avoid a runoff in April? To do that, he has to win 50 percent plus one of the vote. And polls indicate he may be able to do that.
Remember, whoever wins that election is going to succeed long-time mayor, Richard Daley, who decided last year not to run for reelection, Marty.
SAVIDGE: All right. Paul Steinhauser, thanks very much.
By the way, your next update from "The Best Political Team on Television" is just an hour away.
And we're still taking your votes on the "You Choose" story of the day. You can choose from the science behind toddler tantrums, of royal wedding hunger strike, or oral sex boosting your cancer risk. We wonder which one would win.
Head to Ali's blog, CNN.com/Ali to vote.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAVIDGE: Now back to our "You Choose" segment where we ask you to vote on the news.
And the winner is -- was there any doubt -- oral sex increases your risk of getting cancer. Yes. According to new research out of the University of California, the human papillomavirus, or HPV, may be overtaking tobacco as the leading cause of oral cancers in America in people under the age of 50. Every year, 37,000 people are diagnosed with oral cancer. The researchers are trying to get a crucial message out to teens: oral sex carries as many of the same risks as vaginal sex.
We'll post the stories about the toddler tantrums and the royal wedding hunger strike on Ali's blog, CNN.com/Ali.
There you go. I'm Martin Savidge. Thanks for being with me.
CNN'S NEWSROOM continues now with Brooke Baldwin -- Brooke.
