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New Details Revealed on bin Laden Operation; Levee Blown up to Save Town

Aired May 03, 2011 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome back to the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

I want to tell you about a couple of things that are going to be happening on my watch right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.

First up, take a look at some of these live pictures right now. Members of the U.S. House are gathering in their own auditorium there on Capitol Hill to be briefed on the operation that killed Osama bin Laden, and they will be getting the details straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak, the director of the Central Intelligence Agency, Leon Panetta.

So, if any members come to those cameras there outside, we will, of course, let you know.

Also, at the bottom of the hour, in the Senate chambers, there will be a resolution passed to honor the members of the military and the intelligence community who carried out that kill mission in Pakistan Sunday.

Also, just a bit of interesting color here within the Senate chambers. The senators will be asked to sit at their individual desks. And that is a custom saved for special or solemn occasions. And we will bring you that moment live when that happens as well.

Busy day on Capitol Hill and a busy day for the White House of course. Within just this past hour, the White House delivered a new readout on the raid that killed Osama bin Laden. And we are hearing some new details, some new information, including the fact that bin Laden was not armed, although U.S. officials continue to say he resisted.

Let's listen. This is White House spokesman Jay Carney.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: On the orders of the President, a small U.S. team assaulted a secure compound in an affluent suburb of Islamabad to capture or kill Osama Bin Laden.

The raid was conducted with U.S. military personnel assaulting in two helicopters. The team methodically cleared the compound, moving from room to room, in an operation lasting nearly 40 minutes. They were engaged in a firefight throughout the operation, and Osama Bin Laden was killed by the assaulting force.

In addition to the bin Laden family, two other families resided in the compound, one family on the first floor of the bin Laden building, and one family in a second building. One team began the operation on the first floor of the bin Laden house and worked their way to the third floor. A second team cleared the separate building.

On the first floor of bin Laden's building, two al Qaeda couriers were killed, along with a woman who was killed in crossfire. Bin Laden and his family were found on the second and third floor of the building. There was concern that bin Laden would oppose the capture operation -- operation, rather -- and, indeed, he did resist.

In the room with bin Laden, a woman, bin Laden's wife -- a woman, rather, bin Laden's wife, rushed the U.S. assaulter and was shot in the leg, but not killed.

Bin Laden was then shot and killed. He was not armed. Following the firefight, the noncombatants were moved to a safe location as the damaged helicopter was detonated. The team departed the scene via helicopter to the USS Carl Vinson in the North Arabian Sea.

Aboard the USS Carl Vinson, the burial of bin Laden was done in conformance with Islamic precepts and practices. The deceased's -- the deceased's body was washed and then placed in a white sheet. The body was placed in a weighted bag. A military officer read prepared religious remarks, which were translated into Arabic by a native speaker.

After the words were complete, the body was placed on a prepared flat board, tipped up, and the deceased's body eased into the sea.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Carney mentioning the burial at sea there was a new tidbit there at the end. We knew that bin Laden was buried at sea, and Carney just told us it was the North Arabian Sea.

bin Laden was lowered -- or Carney's word was eased from the decks of the USS Carl Vinson, the body placed in some sort of weighted bag. So, details still emerging with regard to this top-secret raid. They're emerging from Washington. And stand by for more news there.

But I want to move quickly here to Pakistan to the scene of the raid that killed the world's most notorious terrorist. New details also emerging from there from CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's just across the fields here, about 100 yards away. There is already a big crowd of people gathering around there. I can see some soldiers. There's one soldier walking in across the field.

But when you look at this building, look at it there, it is different from all the other buildings around it. It is taller. And it has got a higher wall. The compound starts right here. You can see how high the wall is.

Look at this. OK. I'm 6 foot. My arms may be another two feet. And that gives you an idea of just how tall the wall is. Of course, there is razor wire at the top of it as well. And if you come back come over here, come and stand up over here, we can take a look here.

And you can get to see the high part of the compound building here. It was up there on the second and third floor where bin Laden was killed, two shots, one to the head one the chest.

Well, it is becoming already a tourist attraction in of itself. I mean, look at the all the people that are gathered here right now. People got have their cell phones out, taking pictures, professional journalists down here, but a lot of people just coming to take a look.

And the door here -- soldiers guarding the door.

Salaam Alaikum. How are you?

You see the doors are sealed, these pink labels here and here. No, no, no. They are sealing the doors to the compound.

(voice-over): Behind the doors, blood on the floor. This video was taken just after the fight finished. Now all that damage is off limits.

(on camera): As you walk around the compound, there is nothing to give away that the world's most wanted terrorist was living inside here, but this is incredibly ironic, painted on the outside, an advert for a girls college on the wall of the compound where the world's most wanted terrorist lived.

But think about it. More than that, this man, Osama bin Laden, denied women access to education. His view of Islam denied women the opportunity to progress in life. And here it is on the outside of the place he was hiding, an advert for girls to get an education.

Looking in, you can see it's -- all the mud is churned up, but I can see the building as well. And there is very little damage that I can actually see even -- even squinting in and taking a look from here. The building is just up there and I can't see any signs of heavy explosions or even sort of any pockmarks from gunfire.

He couldn't have been hiding in any more plain sight than this, around three sides of the compound, a farmer's fields, cabbages down here, potatoes back there, marijuana plants right up to the side of the compound, plain sight. The farmers were working these fields and he was just over the wall.

Are you surprised now to know who it was that was there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I am surprised. I am (INAUDIBLE) Osama bin Laden or any other (INAUDIBLE)

ROBERTSON: Are you happy that he has been killed?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I am happy because the peace is very important for us.

ROBERTSON: The lasting impression I have of bin Laden's compound here is how little damage there is, how few bullet marks we can see and shell blasts. It is clear the main battle took place right inside there.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Abbottabad, Pakistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Want to take you back to Washington to go back to the briefing that had just finished up at the White House, the topic, the photos of the dead bin Laden.

Now, the White House is coming under some mounting pressure today to put them out, to make them public. Again, let's listen to White House spokesman Jay Carney.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARNEY: There are sensitivities here in terms of the appropriateness of releasing photographs of Osama bin Laden and in the aftermath of this firefight.

And we are making an evaluation about the need to do that, because of the sensitivities involved. And we -- we do -- we review this information and -- and make this decision with the same calculation as we do so many things, which is what -- what we are trying to accomplish and does it serve or in any way harm our interests. And that is not just domestic, but globally.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joining me now from Washington, Jessica Yellin, national political correspondent.

Jess, what do we know about the photos?

JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, from a senior U.S. official, Brooke, I am told that there are three different sets of photos. Let me walk you through them.

First, there are photos from the compound itself that has pictures of three men killed, the two brothers and then one of bin Laden's son, about an adult adolescent, all killed. Then there are two sets of bin Laden, himself. One was right after they had returned his body to Afghanistan, taken then, and then a second set of pictures of bin Laden on the USS Carl Vinson for his burial, both with the shroud and without the shroud on.

Now, one of the issues is, is that the picture of Osama bin Laden taken right after his return to Afghanistan, I'm told, is clearly the one that is most identifiable as him, but also very gory and bloody. Jay Carney himself said it is gruesome.

There is an open head wound above and across both eyes, I am told, so it is not the thing you want your kids seeing on the front page of a newspaper over their Cheerios. You don't want to incite more violence, but you also have to weigh against that the likelihood that, in this environment, something like that could eventually leak.

BALDWIN: So, we still, though -- Jess, we still don't know when, if at all, or the White House would release any of these?

YELLIN: That's correct. We don't know.

But I would emphasize that most of the pressure to release them quickly is coming from us in the media, and that it is true that they have declassified enormous parts of this unbelievable exercise, this unbelievable operation quickly. So...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: It is fascinating hearing some of the details. And I know you have been making phone calls. You have been doing some digging.

So, sort of photos aside, we know that the raid, it took a good 40 minutes. And in that time, this team of American commandos walked away with, what, thumb drives, computers? What did they find?

YELLIN: An intelligence windfall. It's five computers, 10 hard drives, and then more than 100 storage devices that include DVDs, discs and hard drives, thumb drives, as you say.

BALDWIN: Before I let you go, I want to talk about another photograph. This one is most definitely circulating. And it's getting all kinds of attention.

Let's take a look. This is the photo. This is from the White House Situation Room Sunday fight when this whole 40-minute raid unfolded in Pakistan. And, obviously, a lot of people can pick out a number of these high, high-ranking officials within the administration, et cetera.

I know, though, Jess, some of the faces, we don't recognize. You are plugged in. Walk me through some of the folks who we may not necessarily recognize, but, obviously, they are very, very important to be in the Situation Room.

YELLIN: I had to do a little research, too.

BALDWIN: OK.

YELLIN: They were there for history.

So, in addition, you see -- there is Vice President Biden, of course, the president. Then next to them is a uniformed man. That is Brigadier General Marshall Webb, who is from the Joint Special Operations Command.

SEAL Team 6, which conducted the operation, operates under Joint Special Operations Command, JSOC. So, then behind him in that brown shirt, Admiral Mike Mullen. He might be familiar to folks as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the president's top military adviser. Tom Donilon, his national security adviser, is next to him in the blue, then Bill Daley, the chief of staff.

Peeking over the shoulder, Tony Blinken, the vice president's national security adviser and a key security adviser to the president. In the back, a woman named Audrey Tomason, director for counterterrorism.

You want me to keep going?

BALDWIN: Keep going.

YELLIN: Denis McDonough, the deputy national security adviser, he's seated in the blue. Above him in the white shirt is John Brennan. You him as assistant to the president -- assistant to the president for counterterrorism.

And then you can barely see in the corner at the edge National Intelligence Director James Clapper. And then everybody knows Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Secretary of Defense Gates.

BALDWIN: Bob Gates, yes.

(CROSSTALK)

YELLIN: Cool room to be in, huh?

BALDWIN: What a room to be in.

And, you know, the first question out of one of the reporters' mouths today at that White House briefing is what it specifically that they're looking at? And Jay Carney would not give more specifics, other than we know it was Panetta sort of explaining what they were looking at, but we don't know what specific moment that was. And perhaps we will never know.

Jessica Yellin, thank you so much.

Here is an acronym you and I have been learning here today. EKIA, it is an acronym, it stands for enemy killed in action. So, how do you even begin to train for a mission that results in those letters? Who needs to know? What do they need to know? And how do you practice for such a mission ahead of time?

I'm going to speak with a former CIA operative about the tactical details we are all finding so fascinating today. Stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: All right joining me right now from New York, Mike Baker, formerly of the CIA. He was a covert operations officer.

Mike, it's always good to have you on.

MIKE BAKER, FORMER CIA COVERT OPERATIONS OFFICER: Thank you. BALDWIN: I want to get straight to some of the new details that we have just learned this afternoon, the fact that bin Laden on the third floor apparently asleep, obviously awakened by this massive mission Sunday, he was not armed, but that he did resist. In fact, Jay Carney said resistance does not require a firearm. He was shot twice. It was a clean hit.

Talk to me, if you can, just about the split-second decision a Navy SEAL must have made to kill.

BAKER: Right.

They go in with their parameters, all right, capture or kill. But, you know, but ultimately, it is your call on the ground, as it has to be. You know, it is nobody else. It's nobody armchair- quarterbacking this thing, thank God, from Washington.

These guys get on the ground and the whistle blows, although you should never start an operation by blowing a whistle. And it -- off you go to the races. The fact that he was shot, you know, indicates that, at that moment in time, the SEAL member who took the shot, that was his best judgment.

And I defy anybody to start second-guessing these soldiers who went in and carried out this operation.

BALDWIN: We are learning that there were obviously many, many different dry runs also within the United States. There were these sort of fake compounds that were built on both coasts, where they were doing dry runs, didn't even know who their target would be until much later on.

So, as a Navy SEAL walking into this mission on this day on Sunday, how much do they know vs. how much is simply a surprise?

BAKER: Right.

Well, with something like this, they were fortunate in several ways, in that we were able to identify this compound with sufficient time to carry out some pretty remarkable surveillance, you know, both physical surveillance, technical surveillance, coverage, you know, satellite surveillance.

So, we were able to over a period of time build up a very, very good understanding of certainly the physical layout. That allowed them to then create mockups, which, at the end of the day, they are very detailed. And you train and train and train on those within the time that you have got.

BALDWIN: Yes.

BAKER: So, you know, OK, we are breaching this door. We have now got 10 paces to go. We have got a corridor to our left. We know how high the walls are.

So, all of that is -- it becomes muscle memory. And then you also, you are studying the people that are inside the facility. You are studying the patterns of activity, so that you have as you walk in there -- it is never perfect and it's never complete information, unlike in the beach books and the feature films.

BALDWIN: Yes.

BAKER: But it is the best that you can get.

And at a certain point, you have to make that call and say, OK, it is time to get off the X. Let's go.

BALDWIN: But what about also, Mike -- and we are hearing different iterations of the story as the facts are sort of coming forward. And we were thinking maybe initially yesterday this was just a team of six Navy SEALs.

And, instead, according to this article I read in "The New York Times" this morning, it was 79 American commandos, four different helicopters. Can you explain just sort of the sheer numbers and why two sets of helicopters?

BAKER: Well, I mean, first of all, it is not just the team that goes inside the compound and starts clearing the facility and looking for bin Laden.

You have got a lot of other security concerns. You have got to protect the perimeter. You have got support, because, again, we had a chopper down. And they had to ultimately destroy that.

BALDWIN: Destroy it.

BAKER: They had reserves. They had built in some redundancy, which -- you know, very smart. And we were in a situation with this particular operation where you could include that redundant factor to it. And that proved critical.

So, it's not a -- no one should think that it is just this small team that drops inside and that is all that is going on. There is a great deal of support resource going on behind it, as well as air assets, on something like that.

BALDWIN: We know that this operation, we know it lasted 40 -- 40 minutes. And we know that, ultimately, their target was bin Laden, presumably. They were hoping to find him, which they have.

But what else do you think they were told? I mean, get in, get as much as you can in terms of thumb drives and hard drives and computers, and get out before Pakistan -- Pakistani forces start scrambling and coming after them to engage?

BAKER: Right.

Right. Well, I mean, obviously, there was that issue of, you know, nobody wants to go with having the Pakistani military suddenly rocking up on target, and you have got an issue here. So they knew that they were -- that they were playing beat the clock in that sense. But then, also, just like with fields of fire, there is, you know, clear responsibilities given to various team members, and, you know, whether that is, you know, perimeter security, whether it is worrying about picking up anything possible in terms of potential actionable intelligence leads.

So, you know, they rock up. And they all have got a clear understanding what their mission is within that operation itself.

BALDWIN: What a mission it was.

Mike Baker, formerly of the CIA, always love having you on for your perspective.

BAKER: Of course.

BALDWIN: Thank you so much, Mike.

BAKER: Thank you.

BALDWIN: And he, I think, had even mentioned, is this kind of like a movie? It's looking a little bit more like a good old- fashioned espionage movie.

More details emerging here on how the CIA tracked Osama bin Laden down to that massive compound there in Abbottabad, Pakistan. And did you know the CIA was not even 100 percent sure he was there? That is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You know, it is not even 48 hours since the news broke about Osama bin Laden's death. No photos, no video of the mission have been released, at least yet.

What we do know about many of the various pieces of this puzzle that really came together to make this whole thing possible -- and Gloria Borger wrote this excellent column, CNN.com/opinion.

And, Gloria, I know you call this classic espionage.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: It is.

BALDWIN: And it is important to point out that this thing started multiple years ago.

BORGER: Oh. Oh, yes, multiple, multiple years ago. And it kinds lifts the veil, Brooke, on how the CIA operates and what kind of painstaking work they do.

And in terms of going after Osama bin Laden, they made the decision, you know what? He is in hiding, so the people we ought to focus on are the couriers, the people who bring him his money, the people who bring him his communications, right, the people who are his contacts to the outside world. So, they have these high-value detainees, like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who is the mastermind of 9/11. And they start asking questions about couriers. And they are getting some information from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. But then they come up to a courier whose nickname they knew.

And they asked Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and another detainee, al- Libi, who was a messenger himself for bin Laden, do you know this guy? And they say, no, no, no. Oh, he is not important, no big deal.

Meantime, their own intelligence work had shown that, in fact, this courier had been a protege of KSM. So KSM knew exactly who he was, knew how important he was. And in lying to the CIA, it gave them a clue that, gee, this courier might be important.

But they still didn't have his name, Brooke. They only had a nickname to go on.

BALDWIN: Yes.

BORGER: So, then they had to kind of try and track him down.

BALDWIN: I think it is fascinating what these interrogation folks do. And they listen so much for maybe key words -- key words, key phrases and names, but it's what they don't say that rings the bell. And, obviously, in this case, that is precisely what happened.

Also, they never actually. There was obviously mounting evidence, but they didn't actually have a visual on Osama bin Laden at this particular compound. I think, in your article, you cite from your source that they only had about 60 to 80 percent probability that bin Laden was even in there.

BORGER: Exactly. They really -- they really didn't know.

In fact, when they took this to the president, they -- it was clear that this was a -- what they call a circumstantial case, 60 to 80 percent probability that Osama bin Laden was on that third floor. They knew members of his family, they believed, were on that third floor. They know the couriers live there, because this courier actually inadvertently led them to the compound.

And, so, this is where the president has to make a decision: Do we go in, do we not go in? Do we bomb the place? Or do we need to have evidence that we have actually got Osama bin Laden's body?

And they made the decision. The CIA director, Leon Panetta, I think, agreed with the president that, in fact, it was likely that Osama bin Laden was there. But they didn't know for certainty, because they never saw him enter the building or leave the building. So, you know, this was one of those calls that the president has to make.

BALDWIN: Pieces of the puzzle, pieces of the puzzle...

BORGER: Yes. BALDWIN: ... that the CIA was able to put together. I think it was John Brennan who called it a mosaic this morning. And they got him, to quote the president. They got him.

BALDWIN: Gloria Borger...

BORGER: It was a mosaic.

BALDWIN: Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much.

BORGER: Sure.

BALDWIN: And if you want to read Gloria's column, all you have to do is go to CNN.com/opinion. And she writes a lot about how the bin Laden attack was years in the making.

Now to this: Have you seen this picture yet? That is a levee -- look at that -- being blown up to prevent massive flooding in one town in Illinois. But here is the -- here is the issue. This massive explosion was at the expense of all kinds of farmers just next door in Missouri, and now they are suing. Rob Marciano is covering this one for us. He is live there. He's going to join me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers blows up a Mississippi River levee and floods about 200 square miles of rich farmland in Missouri.

Now, they did it in order to bring down historic levels and to save the small Illinois town of Cairo. Take a look at this. You can see Cairo sits just where the Mississippi and Ohio River come together there down South.

Now, the downside to levee breaching is what happened in Missouri. About 100 homes were flooded, along with that farmland right around there.

Our meteorologist Rob Marciano is in Mississippi County in Missouri there along this levee.

And, Rob, I guess just sort of initially here, did the breach work? Have the -- have the water levels dropped?

ROB MARCIANO, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Well, you know, for -- for many. For this area, no. This is actually the area that was flooded. The water that you see behind me wasn't here this time yesterday. Where they blew that levee, that video that you have been showing, which is extraordinary and how often do we blow the holes in the levees and we are usually building them up and shoring them up, but beyond the trees a mile and half or so is that levee or a section of it was blown apart last night, so that water could flood into the area.

This is designed to be a floodway. In an extraordinary case like this, they thought it was the ultimate backup, and that's why they let the water come in through this area. So and some areas across the river, they have seen water levels drop well over a foot, and conditions in those areas are improving, but in other areas, well, it is a different story.

BALDWIN: Yes, I mean, we don't often see explosions of levees and I know it was a contentious issue. Chad Myers updated me on the side that it is down a foot and a half, but rob, wasn't the army corps of engineers supposed to do a third or maybe a second or third breach today? Is that on schedule or not?

MARCIANO: No, it was delayed, but we have heard them an hour ago pop a second one and they will do a third one likely later on this afternoon or evening. Those are smaller and this is the big one and released a lot of the pressure and the water has to go somewhere and it cannot sit here. So a couple of smaller holes at the bomb of the floodway will slowly allow some of to water to go become to the Mississippi farther downstream.

But it is like cutting part of the sweater off of the right arm and sewing it on the left, and it is hard to dissipate all of the water, because the surge will continue to go downstream, and there are other areas who have evacuated in anticipation of the rising waters.

BALDWIN: Well, it is a bit of a catch 22 for the folks there in Mississippi and Missouri. Thank you, Rob.

I want to talk about some video that has been turned around here in CNN. There is a new royal visitor here in Washington D.C. today. Here he is hopping out of the car. That is Britain's Prince Charles on a three-day trip. This is his first trip to D.C. since 2007.

And one of the first stops today was the U.S. Supreme Court where he is right now. His office says he is scheduled to meet with the president, president Obama and make a speech at Georgetown University in his three-day visit in Washington.

And coming up next, what the U.S. did with Osama bin Laden's body after he was killed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The burial of bin Laden was done in conformance with Islamic precepts and practices. The deceased's body was washed and then wrapped.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So then his body was eased into the ocean. So was that really in keeping with the Muslim faith? I will ask an imam next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: U.S. officials say that Osama bin Laden's body is gone, that they buried it at sea, saying to use their words, there was no land alternative and no country willing or able to accept his grave. We are also told that bin Laden's body was treated in a manner appropriate to his Muslim faith and that he was buried after boarding a U.S. aircraft carrier.

So I want to speak a little bit more about that burial and also whether Muslims worldwide agree that his treatment was appropriate. Imam Johari Abdul-Malik is the outreach director at a mosque in the Washington, D.C. area. Thank you for coming on. If I may --

IMAM JOHARI ABDUL-MALIK, OUTREACH DIRECTOR, DAR AL-HIJRAH ISLAMIC CENTER: Thank you for having me.

BALDWIN: -- I want to begin first with the news when it broke Sunday night, there was a lot of celebration, elation over the news. Sir, what was your first reaction when you heard that bin Laden had been killed?

ABDUL-MALIK: Well, you know, I actually was at a Chinese restaurant with my daughter, and I could see on the television on CNN that bin Laden had been killed. That moment it took me back to September 1th and where I was at that time, and I began to reflect about what it has meant in these almost ten years now of this tragedy.

And I want to perhaps remind you that people like myself were on CNN and on "The O'Reilly Factor" denouncing bin Laden for his actions that were not in harmony with the beliefs of Islam.

So upon his death, I know that myself, I felt that perhaps this is not a day to rejoice, but at the same time for me it was not a day of remorse. It is unfortunate that this person, that his hate speech has done so much to divide us between Muslims and people of other faiths. And so I remain concerned about how we are going to move forward in the post-bin Laden era.

BALDWIN: Let me jump in before we go into the post bin Laden, and this is a moment from the president's speech Sunday night. And then we will talk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We must also reaffirm that the United States is not and will not ever be at war with Islam. I have made clear just as President Bush did shortly after 9/11, that our war is not against Islam. Bin Laden was not a Muslim leader. He was a mass murder of Muslims. Indeed, Al Qaeda slaughtered many scores of Muslims in countries, including our own. So his demise should be welcomed by all who believe in peace and human dignity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So not a Muslim leader and a murder of Muslims. So do you agree with the president and do you believe that the death will tamp down the anti-Muslim sentiment throughout America?

ABDUL-MALIK: Well, you know, let's remember that the actions and the statements of bin Laden and Al Qaeda are not consistent with the universal teachings of Islam. The word "Islam," peace, surrender, security, following in the Abrahamic tradition of a love of Jesus and Moses and Abraham. So for us, bin Laden was not an architect of Islam, but he was an architect of terror.

BALDWIN: I want to ask about the burial of sea, because this is a sticking point for a lot of people and apparently we heard from the White House that in keeping with Muslim tradition he was placed in a sheet.

ABDUL-MALIK: Indeed.

BALDWIN: He was buried within 24 hours as per Muslim faith.

ABDUL-MALIK: Yes.

BALDWIN: What do you make of the way he was buried? Because I have heard from other leaders who say this is not in accordance to your faith.

ABDUL-MALIK: Well, if you look at the tradition of Islam, just as in the tradition of Judaism, a person is not embalmed. Their body is washed, and they are buried very shortly afterwards at least within the time of the setting of two suns.

If a person is at sea, it is traditional that they be buried at sea. And so, this is an exception that someone who would have been killed on land, but then taken to sea and buried is an exception, but permissible.

BALDWIN: It is permissible. So you don't take exception to the exception?

ABDUL-MALIK: No, no. I think that there is some wisdom to this. Perhaps his grave, if there was a nation who would take him, his grave would become a shrine to terrorists. And so perhaps there was some, if you could call this Islamic jurisprudence that was being adjusted so that it could achieve a strategic end, but it is a permissible and in keeping with the tradition.

BALDWIN: OK. Imam Johari Abdul-Malik, thank you for clearing that up. We will thank you so much.

ABDUL-MALIK: Are we going to get to post bin Laden?

BALDWIN: Sir, post bin Laden, what do you see next as far as America?

ABDUL-MALIK: I am asking for Muslims in America during this period of resilience to open the doors of the mosques in America so that our neighbors can come in during this period where some of us are fearing that maybe Al Qaeda will have a backlash, that it is time for us to come together as a nation.

So my mosque is open this Saturday and I'm encouraging all of the mosques in America to do the same, because there is a post-traumatic stress around 9/11, upon the anniversary of it, and this is a chance for our people to come together now that the chapter of Osama bin Laden is closed.

BALDWIN: Yes. Imam, thank you for sharing. Thank you. Appreciate it.

ABDUL-MALIK: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: And so many want to know how is Osama bin Laden living in this massive compound just down the way from the military academy in Pakistan without the Pakistani government actually knowing it was there. Pakistan's ambassador to the United States tries to explain that one. Do not miss this exchange with our own Wolf Blitzer.

ABDUL-MALIK: Also this is inside the White House situation room as the operation was underway in Pakistan. The White House was just asked what they were looking at in this particular picture. We'll share the picture with you and their response, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Pakistan is most definitely feeling the heat over the capture and killing of Osama bin Laden, but the question many people want answered is how could Pakistan not know that 9/ Osama bin Laden was living in the wealthy suburb of the capital near the country's main military academy?

I want you to pay close attention to the exchange from the situation room between my colleague Wolf Blitzer and Pakistan's ambassador to the United States.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUSAIN HAQQANI, PAKISTANI AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: We are allies --

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": Why didn't the U.S. trust Pakistan to share anything about this operation --

HAQQANI: Of course, the United States --

BLITZER: Until all of the U.S. troops were out of your air space.

HAQQANI: The United States didn't share information on this operation with the Australians or the British or the Canadians, and it did not --

BLITZER: Osama bin Laden was in Pakistan, not in Australia or Britain.

HAQQANI: But my point is that the United States made a critical decision. President Obama decided that the operation was far more important than the niceties.

BLITZER: And even though the helicopters were flying back to Afghanistan and India, they still did not tell you until they were completely out of the airspace.

HAQQANI: Well, Pakistan and the United States have things to work out as we move forward, but move forward we will. The people of Pakistan have no interest in protecting or keeping terrorists on our soil. We need to build our nation, half of our children don't go to school and two-thirds of our people live below the poverty line. Those are the issues --

BLITZER: So you are happy that bin Laden is dead?

HAQQANI: You bet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And the Pakistani ambassador did not know where bin Laden was, but he says it is possible that the Pakistan sympathizers helped the Al Qaeda hide out there, bin Laden most definitely Osama bin Laden was hiding out there, and so should the U.S. taxpayer continue to send aid there? One woman says we need to, to quote her "stop feeding the beast." She'll explain, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: The U.S. has been in the war in Afghanistan for nine years now because of Osama bin Laden, and his discovery in next door Pakistan raising all kinds of questions about that country's loyalties in the fight against terrorism. I want to go in depth on this war with New Jersey Democrat Senator Frank Lautenberg, who says the U.S. should not send any more money to Pakistan until we know that they were not harboring Osama bin Laden.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. FRANK LAUTENBERG, (D) NEW JERSEY: We have to find out what it is that they are up to. Are they on our side all the time? Here's this Bill, all they need was a neon sign to be identified --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Want to break away from that. Apologies. We'll come momentarily to that. But there is Mike Pence here speaking. He's just been briefed one of the members of the House of Representatives briefed by Leon Panetta on what went on down Sunday in Pakistan. Let's listen.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

REP. MIKE PENCE, (R) INDIANA: I'm most grateful to the men and women present and past of our armed forces and intelligence community who brought this about. To hear with particularity how the intelligence was developed and how this operation was executed, will be a great source of pride and encouragement to every American.

QUESTION: Mr. Pence, is there any indication of a photo of Osama bin Laden shot?

PENCE: I have not seen any photographs other than what's been made available.

QUESTION: Did they give you any indication of what they have discovered from the hard drive at the compound?

PENCE: My understanding is that the evaluation of information is underway and is forthcoming and will be available in the appropriate amount of time. This is a great victory for freedom. And the more the American people learn about how this intelligence was developed and the careful and preparation that went into this operation I think, like me, the more impressed they will be become.

QUESTION: The fire fight and the last moments of bin Laden being shot? Describe how that went down.

PENCE: No comment on the rest of it since it was otherwise classified.

BALDWIN: You were listening to Congressman Mike Pence. He has just been briefed by the director of the Central Intelligence Agency Leon Panetta along with a number of high-ranking officials about what they learned about this particular operation.

It sounds like we don't know yet as far as any information from the hard drives and thumb drives and computers taken out of the compound in Pakistan. He called it -- he called it a "great victory for freedom" and has not seen any photos of the now deceased Osama bin Laden.

We're going to take you back to our guest talking about the money, the funding from the United States to Pakistan, and my guest there, Leila Hudson talking about how we need to stop feeding the beast. We've got to get a quick break in, then Leila and I will talk after this. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: I want to bring back my guest Leila Hudson. She has been considering a number of issues with regard to U.S. relations with Pakistan and the billions of dollars the U.S. provides to that country in terms of intelligence gathering, et cetera. She is a professor of near eastern studies at the University Arizona.

And she has written an editorial called "After Osama, stop feeding the beast." She wrote it for Al Jazeera. Leila, I know in your piece you say that the discovery of Osama bin Laden living so near -- it's the PMA, the Pakistan military academy, to quote you, "is like capturing Carlos the jackal just down the road from West Point."

From reading your piece, there was complicity here with regard to Pakistan allowing bin Laden to live in Abbottabad. Why is it that you think that?

LEILA HUDSON, EDITORIAL WRITER, UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA: We, the sheer proximity of finding Osama bin Laden in a garrison town known even more for its tourism for its military installation and presence there, again, it's hard to conceive that within an area the size of the University of Arizona campus here that Osama bin Laden might be sheltered, you know, in such a small area without some kind of complicity. That's not a broad brush accusation of everybody or the entire military establishment, but clearly it's symptomatic of the way in which the Pakistani military and intelligence services are riddled with people who, you know, loyalties are not entirely clear.

BALDWIN: And we know that the White House is digging into this. I have to ask you quickly, $2 billion, that's how much money the U.S., the taxpayer has promised to pay Pakistan under the military finance program as of last October, 2010. In your article you talk about stop feeding the beast. But how is it that the U.S. does that when the U.S. very much so relies on Pakistan for intel?

HUDSON: Well, there -- this doesn't mean cutting off all aid to Pakistan. I think there are much smarter ways that we can demonstrate our commitment to this very important ally.

Pakistan is a huge country with a population of almost 200 million people, scheduled to double in population within 25 years, and all kinds of other civilian and humanitarian needs that would be a much smarter way for us to develop a relationship of this key front line ally.

BALDWIN: OK.

HUDSON: What we mean by feeding the beast in this editorial that my students and I wrote is in fact this idea of throwing huge amounts of money into a military complex, again, that has its own very specific sets of interests that are not necessarily exactly perfectly co-aligned with those of the United States.

BALDWIN: Yes. This is very much so the beginning of a conversation that I think the U.S. will begin having with regard to the relationship with Pakistan and also the money that we provide.

It will be looked into...

(CROSSTALK)

HUDSON: Sorry. I can't actually hear you. I have lost my mike.

Leila Hudson, got to move on. Leila, apologies there.