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White House: No Bin Laden Photos

Aired May 04, 2011 - 15:10   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. So, they have officially switched gears and we will as well here.

Welcome to CNN, CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You have been listening to Jay Carney briefing members of the media for the better part of the last hour because of this big, big decision that we have just learned coming out of the White House just this afternoon.

The headline here, they will not be releasing the photos showing Osama bin Laden dead, even though the public seems fairly anxious to see them and even though Leon Panetta, head of the CIA, has said he believed one photograph would be released at some point in time. We are going to replay just part of this in case you missed it.

You will hear from White House Press Secretary Jay Carney. This is what he said just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARNEY: "We discussed this internally. Keep in mind that we are absolutely certain that this was him. We've done DNA sampling and testing. And so is no doubt that we killed Osama bin Laden.

"It is important for us to make sure that very graphic photos of somebody who was shot in the head are not floating around as an incitement to additional violence or as a propaganda tool. That's not who we are. We don't trot out this stuff as trophies."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Now, Carney went on to quote the president as saying there is no need to spike the football. That is not who we are.

Before we get to some of our reporters, some pictures here from overseas. Take a look at this with me. This is from Pakistan, an American flag burned at a demonstration. This was Tuesday. Take a look at this. This is another image from Pakistan, massive demonstration there in support, in support of the dead bin Laden.

Now, the reaction we have seen thus far has been relatively muted. And U.S. officials apparently do not want things, of course, getting out of hand, potentially endangering Americans both here at home and abroad.

Dan Lothian is at the White House for me this afternoon.

And, Dan, not in our national security interests, according to Carney, according to the president, to make these photos public, and quoting the president, "This is not who we are."

So, Dan, my question is, was there ever even a time when the president considered releasing one of these photos?

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: You know, that is such a good question. And in fact, Jay Carney was asked that at the briefing this afternoon.

And he said, from what he had seen, the president was pretty solid in his decision, at least as of yesterday, but formally making that call some time this morning, Jay Carney saying that he was in the room.

And, again, at the very foundation of this decision is this administration believing that it was not in the national security interests of this country for these photos of Osama bin Laden dead to be released.

There was a lot of pressure on this White House. And certainly, as we have been reporting over the last few days, there has been this sort of internal deliberation as to whether or not it should be done.

And I asked Jay Carney if it was the majority opinion of those advising the president that the pictures should not be released. And he said yes. We do know that CIA Director Leon Panetta had been very public about suggesting that these pictures would ultimately be released, but, again, most of those around the president advising him, according to Jay Carney...

BALDWIN: Yes.

LOTHIAN: ... were telling him that these photos should not be released.

BALDWIN: Well, let me jump in because you mentioned Panetta. And sort of juxtaposing the news today vs. what we heard from him last night, it sort of did indicate to the public that a picture would be released.

Here's a portion. This is from Leon Panetta just last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEON PANETTA, CIA DIRECTOR: I don't think there's -- there was any question that ultimately a photograph would be presented to the public. Obviously, I have seen those photographs. We have analyzed them.

And there is no question that it is bin Laden.

BRIAN WILLIAMS, HOST, "NBC NIGHTLY NEWS": Were you debating how the release of a photo would go over, given its gruesomeness vs. the need on behalf of people all over the world to demand proof of death?

PANETTA: I think there is no question that there were concerns and there were questions that had to be debated about just exactly what kind of impact would these photos have, but the bottom line is that, you know, we got bin Laden. And I think we have to reveal to the rest of the world the fact that we were able to get him and kill him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, Dan, given what we just heard there -- and I know that our team at the White House has been doing some reporting, and according to a Democratic source, the president's inner circle this morning none too pleased with Panetta's -- and I'm quoting the source -- "I'm in charge here" moments.

So what can you add, Dan, about how what happened last night and how that sort of evolved today? Did Panetta change his mind?

LOTHIAN: Well, it is unclear whether or not Panetta changed his mind.

The president ultimately is the one who makes the call here. And as Jay Carney pointed out, the reason the president has his advisers around him is because he wants to hear from all of them. He does not just want everybody to jump on board with his decision. He will ultimately make that call, but he does want to hear dissenting opinions, if you will.

But in the end, the president believed that this would not be in the best interests of this country -- of this country. And, also, I should point out that while there have been a lot of reports out there about concerns that this may or may not be Osama bin Laden -- we have seen that out on the Internet -- there have been people on the streets from our reporting, our reporters overseas there in Pakistan, who don't believe that Osama bin Laden was killed by the United States -- this White House did not believe that that voice was very loud or compelling enough to where they needed to trot out this photo as evidence.

And, also, there was this thinking that even if you put the evidence out there, you show these photos, that those who are doubters won't necessarily be convinced.

BALDWIN: Yes, the president said don't need to trot out this stuff like trophies.

Dan Lothian, thank you so much for the quick reaction there, the big, big decision from the White House.

And I want to move from the White House to Capitol Hill, because you know many, many members of Congress are talking. They're reacting this afternoon to this news that the president has decided not to release these pictures of a deceased Osama bin Laden.

Let's go to Dana Bash. I know she and her team have been talking to all kinds of different members from both the House the Senate side.

And, Dana, just first, quickly, what is the reaction? Are most people in support of the president's decision?

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, it is very interesting.

Leading to up to this decision, you mentioned that our team has been talking to members of Congress in both parties in both sides on the Capitol, and there was a real split about whether or not this was the right thing to do. And for those who say that this obviously -- that they did not want this to be released, obviously, they're happy.

But there was -- there were several members of Congress, again, in both parties who said that they wanted these photos to be released. We talked to one, Peter King, got a statement from him. He is the Homeland Security chairman, also a congressman from New York. He was one who said that they should be released. Here is what he is saying now, Brooke.

He's saying -- quote -- "I understand the president's decision and will not oppose it. While I have said that a photo released may be a good way to combat the predictable conspiracy decisions about bin Laden's death, this is a decision for the president to make. And I respect his decision."

So, there you have one side of this. But not everybody is reacting the way Peter King is. Just one example, Duncan Hunter, he is a congressman from California, is also somebody who served in the military, tours in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Here is what he told our congressional producer Deirdre Walsh: "I'm not talking as a member of the Armed Services Committee, as a Marine who did three tours because of 9/11. As Americans, we deserve to see them."

So, there you see the split about whether or not the president made the right decision here, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Yes. And I think, Dana, also to underscore the point, from what I understand, you have two major Republicans senators, Senator Hatch and Senator McCain, both coming out to say, look, we will follow whatever the president wants to decide. We will support him 100 percent.

So this tells me that this decision, this did not fall on party lines. This was really just personal for these members of Congress.

BASH: It was.

I will tell you that, for the most part, even those members of Congress, senior members of Congress who said that these wanted these photos to be released or didn't, they ultimately said that they would support what the president did.

But these photos are floating around, if you will. We have talked to three United States' senators who said that they have seen them. One is Senator Saxby Chambliss. He is the top Republican on the Intelligence Committee. He is somebody who actually said he wanted them to be released. We have not heard from him yet about what he thinks about the president's decision.

But he said of the photos, he said, it is what you would expect them to see -- what you would expect to see for somebody who was shot in the head. He said, they are not pretty. But even so, what he said his concern was -- and we have heard this from others, Brooke -- is that, even if you don't release them formally, that they are going to get out. Those are just the times that we live in, that they are going to get out, so why not do it in a formal way?

And that is what we heard from other members of Congress, senators, actually two other senators, who said that they had seen these photographs.

BALDWIN: Dana Bash, live on Capitol Hill. Dana, what a day. Thank you so much.

And I do want to take you quickly here. And let's just listen in for a moment. We have the president of the United States there speaking, I believe, at the White House. This is all part of a -- he is speaking about a number of troops who have been wounded.

Let's take a listen.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I was proud to kick off this Soldier Ride two years ago. I'm just as thrilled to be kicking it off today.

I'm pleased that we are joined by a number of members of Congress here. The sun is coming out just as we start. We are also joined by the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and one of my top advisers over the last several years.

I could not be more grateful to him, General Jim "Hoss" Cartwright. Please give him a big round of applause.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: Now, this is one of the most inspiring events that we do at the White House. We are joined by folks from every service. We have got Army.

We have got...

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: We have got some Navy folks.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: We have got Air Force. (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: You know we have got some Marines.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: And we have got some Coast Guard.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: And, just as importantly, we are joined by those who serve and sacrifice alongside you, and that is all our outstanding military families.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: Now, you have all got your gear on. You are on your bikes. You all looking pretty sharp.

Thank you.

(LAUGHTER)

OBAMA: You are ready to go, so I'm not going to hold you back too long here with a long speech, but it is important to remember what this day is about.

Today's a reminder, as Michelle and Joe Biden have already said, that every American, every single person in this country can do something to support our remarkable troops and their families. Everybody can do something. So, seven years ago, a bartender from Long Island had the same idea. He was not from a military family. He had never served in the military, but he knew that he owed our military something.

He was just an ordinary American who was grateful for the service of all those who wear the uniform. And he said, "I just wanted to give something back." So, he jumped on his bike and rode across the country, over 5,000 miles, to raise funds and awareness for our wounded warriors.

Today, there are Soldier Rides all across America, giving our wounded warriors the confidence and support they need to recover. That is the difference a single person can make.

Today, we want to thank Chris Carney and everyone from the Wounded Warrior Project for reminding us of our obligations to each other as Americans. Give them a big round of applause.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: And today is also a tribute to all of you, a generation that has written your own extraordinary chapter in the American story.

Our nation has been at war now for nearly 10 years. Tour after tour, year after year, you have done your duty. You have met every challenge, from the deserts of Iraq to the mountains of Afghanistan. You have risked everything. And you have carried in your hearts the memory of fallen heroes who gave everything.

You have earned your place among the greatest generation of Americans. And we saw that again this past weekend when, thanks to the courage and precision of our forces, the terrorists who started this war and who took so many innocent lives learned that America does not forget. America will ensure that justice is done.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: Of course, for our riders here today, coming home from war marked the beginning of another battle, the battle to recover, to stand again, to walk again, to relearn in some cases the simple things that are the true pleasures of life, dancing with your spouse or holding your children.

And, in many ways, this might have been the toughest battle they have ever fought. But I want all of you to know something. You inspire me. You inspire everybody here.

Michelle and I treasure the moments we have had with some of you and your families. Corporal Nicolas Eddinger (ph) is here. Where is Nicolas? Right there, right in the middle.

He was one of our special guests when Michelle and I hosted a recent special dinner for military leaders at the White House. He was serving in Afghanistan when an IED blast cost him one of his legs, but he is here today as part of his journey to recovery. And I want to just welcome Nicolas back.

Private 1st Class Corey Kent (ph). Where is Corey? Corey is right there. I met Corey during one of my visits to Walter Reed last year. And it was my honor to pin a Purple Heart on him. He has lost both legs, but he's working hard to recover. And he is here today ready to ride. So, Corey, you are an inspiration.

Ted Wade (ph) is here.

Ted, where are you?

Right there.

After sustaining multiple injuries in Iraq, Ted's doctors did not think he would survive. But he persevered. He pulled through. And I was honored that Ted and his wife, Sarah (ph), joined us last year when I signed legislation for veterans and caregivers.

I'm pleased that Ted and Sarah are back with us again today, because I can report that, starting next week, our veterans, wounded warriors and caregivers can start applying for the support that you need and deserve. We are going to get this done, and we are very proud of that.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) OBAMA: As Sarah once said of Ted, just like he needed a team in the military to accomplish the mission, he needs a team at home for the longer war.

And so I say to all of you today we're going to keep building that team that you need for recovery. We are determined to take care of you as well as you have taken care of us.

So, to all the riders here today, I want to say, as your commander in chief and as an American, thank you. We are grateful for you. You represent the very best in America. And in your fight to recover and in the ride that you are about to begin, we see the values and virtues that make our country great.

We may take a hit. We may endure great loss, but we are a strong and resilient people. We push on. We persevere. We are confident in our cause. And we know that, like generations of Americans before us, we will emerge stronger than before.

So, God bless you. God bless the United States of America.

And, with that, let's get this thing started. I think I have got a horn.

(APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: All right. You all ready? You look ready.

One, two, three.

(HORN BLARING)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(MUSIC)

BALDWIN: And there they went, a smiling President Obama. This is a fantastic project. This is all part of the Wounded Warrior Project.

This is the fifth annual Soldier Ride. You just saw them leaving the White House. And, essentially, this is an opportunity for the president really to pay tribute, of course, to our wounded warriors. For the president and we as Americans, this is an opportunity for these guys and gals to get together, those who have been injured during war, to be together and to show the rest of us that they are doing well, they are recovering.

And I will tell you what. My hat is off to them. So, that was fantastic, to be able to share that picture with you there from the White House. What a day from the White House, speaking of. Stay with us, because, coming up next, I want to speak with a Democratic congressman, a Muslim, who disagrees with the president's decision not to release Osama bin Laden's picture.

Here he is. He is standing by live on Capitol Hill. Hello to you, sir.

We will be speaking on the other side of this break. He will tell me why. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: So, should the U.S. have released the bin Laden photos? Many in Congress disagree with President Obama's decision, including Congressman Andre Carson, a Democrat from Indiana, and he's also a Muslim. Congressman, why do you believe that the photo should have been released?

REP. ANDRE CARSON, (D) INDIANA: Well, it is a delicate thing. Let me first commend and salute our president for his tremendous and bold leadership as well as our military and the intelligence community. I think that it is a delicate balancing where releasing the photos would bring a great deal of closure not only to Americans, but to folks worldwide that Osama bin Laden is dead. On the other hand, releasing the photo could exacerbate existing tensions that are already out there and incite others to cause harm to Americans and folks worldwide.

So he has to walk a tight rope. I respect the leadership. He is very bold and we are proud of him.

BALDWIN: But I was told, congressman, that you said that the president should have released the photos. Is that correct, and if so, why?

CARSON: I said that the president has a right to release the photo, but it is an executive decision. I trust his leadership and trust his judgment. If he does not want to release the photos, then that is fine. But again, it could bring a great deal of closure to folks who need closure and to those of us who have bought into the mythology of Osama bin Laden. He is certainly posed a threat, but it could increase the anti-American rhetoric across the globe.

BALDWIN: Have you had a chance to speak to any other Muslim- Americans? Do they agree with the president's decision or do they sort of seek a sense of closure as well?

CARSON: I think that, you know, the Muslims that I have spoken to, the feeling is mixed and some would love the photos to be released as closure, and others don't think it is necessary because they, too, are concerned about the extremist elements out there and the elements who claim to represent Islam.

BALDWIN: Congressman Carson, thank you so much.

And President Obama's decision is a bit of shock to some in his inner circle. So who was it who helped to persuade the president, if anyone at all, and who could today's decision not to share these photos change?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: Back to the breaking story today, the fact that the president has decided not the share photos of a dead Osama bin Laden. I want to bring in our senior political analyst Gloria Borger. Gloria, and I know you have fantastic sources you have been working with here in Washington, and you got a hint of this news yesterday. What were you told?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I did. I did. You know, I was speaking with a senior White House official, and it was very clear to me that this senior official was completely opposed to the releasing of any of these photographs. He said to me, look, and this is a quote, "We have the DNA, the facials, the wife, and measurements. There is no real issue that he didn't get killed. Then he went on to say, so what's the point really of releasing this?"

He started to talk about how we live in a reality TV world, and he said, if the point is just to have some shock value here, why do it? Then he also went on to say, wasn't the president alone making the decision, but it would be decided also with his national security team, and that means the secretary of defense, the national security adviser, and the secretary of state.

So, I could see the way this was sort of trending, although, of course, you could not be sure, because it is the president of the United States who makes the final call on this.

BALDWIN: Right, right.

BORGER: But to hear that yesterday was kind of interesting.

BALDWIN: And you know, when we heard from Jay Carney, he said, yes, there was a pro/con discussion had within the administration and you mentioned sol of the individuals and the picture that we saw from Sunday in the situation room, and members of the cabinet, I imagine are some of the folks he would have consulted. Do we have any one particular voice that he listened to more than another?

BORGER: No, I think it is interesting that this is a president who listens to a lot of people, and then goes home at night and decides and tells you what he is thinking.

BALDWIN: Sleeps on it?

BORGER: Well, I think that the arguments that were being made that were the really important arguments that were obviously the doubts out there, and do you have to -- because you went to all of the trouble of not dropping a bomb from a drone on this, and we have all of this evidence, and let the doubters understand that Osama bin Laden is dead.

On the other hand, also, there is a question of is, and I think that Dana Bash mentioned this earlier, if this leaks somehow, don't forget that people have been shown these photographs and did someone take a picture of them, who knows? You want to be able to control this story, and you don't want the photographs to come out and then you have to kind of catch up with it. So, it was an issue of can we actually control this? And then perhaps the White House, I think has another way, and maybe they will release some DNA evidence. I mean, you don't have to actually look at the photographs to know that this is Osama bin Laden.

BALDWIN: Yes, but, you and I are not biologists and if somebody shows me a piece of DNA and says this is Osama bin Laden's DNA, I mean, but if you show me a picture, that is two different issues.

BORGER: Well, that is right, but don't forget that we live in an age in which pictures can be altered.

BALDWIN: Of course, of course.

BORGER: And anybody can Photoshop it, and you could show the picture of him, and somebody could say, well, that is obviously photo shopped and that is clearly not Osama bin Laden, right.

BALDWIN: Well, Gloria, tell me if there is something to read into this, the whole Leon Panetta angle and this is when he was on with Brian Williams when he says that there is no doubt that a photo will be released, but he is head of the CIA, but pending confirmation, he will be the head of the DOD. And could it be difficulty that he lands on one side and the president another?

BORGER: Well, I don't know definitively, but you could say listening to that, that he is on other side, I just don't know. The key word there is "ultimately," that at some point the photograph would be released. It is part of a historical record one would presume, so I don't know that somewhere down the road when it is less likely to inflame some people.

BALDWIN: Perhaps under a different administration?

BORGER: We -- who knows? We just don't know. At this point, it is very hard to say, but it is very clear where this president comes down on it. He thought that that it would be gloating and used the word "trophy," as he pointed out. And that is not who he is and it's not what he said we want to be.

BALDWIN: He is the one who made the call, and he made the call. Gloria Borger, thank you as always.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC HOLDER, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: The CIA and justice and other intelligence agencies and other law enforcement agencies are contributing people and machines to go through that material.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So was Osama bin Laden planning attacks from that big massive compound? Time is critical as the investigators are parsing through translating what they are getting from the hard drives and the DVDs and computers that all of the Navy Seals found. And we are getting hints and the information is very, very significant. Back in 70 seconds with that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: I want to turn now to the apparent treasure trove of evidence seized during the raid that killed Osama bin Laden. These computer files and thumb drives and other data are giving us useful information today which is what we gleamed from Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano and Senator Joe Lieberman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOE LIEBERMAN, (I) CONNECTICUT: I presume that, for instance, we know that the Navy Seals took out of that bin Laden compound in Pakistan an enormous amount of data and computer and the rest. I assume that as this material is gone over, anything related to Homeland Security will be shared immediately department?

JANET NAPOLITANO, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: It is being shared.

LIEBERMAN: It is being shared already?

NAPOLITANO: Yes.

LIEBERMAN: OK, great.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: It is being shared, that is the significant piece there. Jeanne Meserve there in Washington, Homeland Security correspondent, and Jeanne, do we know where the material is a, being analyzed, and b, talk to me about the sense of urgency here?

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, they are aggressive in the initial analysis which is contributed to by different law enforcement and intelligent agencies across government and all of them bringing whatever resources they can to the matter which has considerable urgency, and if there is anything about impending plots, they want to disrupt them or names in there, they want to roll those people up.

The attorney general was asked about the material today up on Capitol Hill, and here is a bit of what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOLDER: Material that was seized from that residence is being reviewed by interagency teams, CIA, justice, other intelligence agencies and other law enforcement agencies are contributing people and machines to go through the material. As we glean information from the material we will make appropriate decisions as to who might be added to the terror list and the no-fly list --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You expect you probably will add people as a result?

HOLDER: My guess is that we probably will.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MESERVE: I have asked government officials throughout if they have found any specific threat information in here, and they say at that point in time no specific threat to U.S. or U.S. interests overseas.

BALDWIN: And back to the treasure trove. We heard Senator Feinstein says that the information is substantial, and that is nebulous, but do we know anything beyond that?

MESERVE: We, my source told me that the collection will yield valuable intelligence on Al Qaeda and the plans and intentions, and we expect to have insight into some of the relationships inside of Al Qaeda. But the officials are not going beyond that, Brooke. They don't want to compromise the intelligence, they want to use it.

BALDWIN: Makes sense. Jeanne Meserve, thank you. Now, watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our focus still has to be a government in Afghanistan that does not host Al Qaeda and that is not defeated by the Taliban.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Afghanistan does not carry a strategic value that justifies 100,000 troops and $100 billion per year cost.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Those are just some, some of the views on Capitol Hill. So what do you think? Should the U.S. maintain its presence in Afghanistan now that Osama bin Laden is dead? We will tackle that topic next with retired army brigadier general Mark Kimmitt.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: The White House suggesting that if the U.S. had released the pictures of Osama bin Laden, it could inflame terrorists and hurt American troops overseas. I want to bring in retired army brigadier general Mark Kimmitt. And general, what do you make of the president's decision and do you support it?

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT (RET), FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: I do. Frankly, Osama bin Laden for years and years has been making videos and if he is still alive, you can be rest assure head is making another video right now, and if he is dead, there is no reason to appear triumphalist sensationalist. All it is going to do is to harm the already dicey relationship in the Middle East. In this case, the president made the right decision.

BALDWIN: Can you be more specific, as a former secretary of state, and retired army from a troop perspective on the ground in Afghanistan, had this picture been released, what could have happened? What sort of violence could we have seen?

KIMMITT: Well, again, I think that we need to be concerned in the wake of Osama bin Laden's killings that Al Qaeda, itself, is going to have to try to prove its legitimacy and try to demonstrate it is a viable organization.

We have to be prepared, our military and diplomatic facilities and the travelers overseas have to realize that the risk in the near term is probably higher. If we had released the photos it would not be like the Prophet Muhammad cartoons where it incites the population to take retribution and revenge.

BALDWIN: I want to ask about the mission in Afghanistan and the beginning of the drawdown coming in July. First, Pakistan, we know that the mission Sunday was strictly unilateral and U.S. commandos going in and killing bin Laden and coming out. There are now questions on the hill about ISI and should we continue to fund the billions to Pakistan. Where do you stand on that? Some people say, hey, we should pull out, done.

KIMMITT: Well, aside from the issue of whether Pakistan had any involvement in harboring and providing safe haven for Osama, the fact remains that we are in Pakistan, in the region, we have a strategic national interest of having a relationship with Pakistan.

We do not want that government taken over by extremist elements. This is a nuclear armed country. As president Carter said this morning, they have over 100 nukes. We don't want those to fall into the hands of radical extremists. It is a ground for terrorists, and we need to work with the government of Pakistan. As the White House said yesterday, their security is our security, and this is no time for us to be pulling out that relationship.

BALDWIN: What about next door and with Afghanistan and with bin Laden's death, the pressure is mounting at the Pentagon and starting in July they should be pulling out our men and women. Do you agree that there should be a fast, massive troop withdrawal or not?

KIMMITT: I don't disagree that over time when the Afghans are capable of taking on the responsibilities, we should hand that over and withdraw. My argument is not should we withdraw but the rate. It should not be time focused. It should be conditions focused.

When the Afghans are ready to hand over the responsibilities themselves, we've got to hand them over as soon as we can hand them over. But the justification for the war in Afghanistan was Osama. Osama is dead and now we can walk away, declare victory and get out, that mistake was made in the wake of the Soviet withdrawal and we're back in, in many ways, to Afghanistan because of that lack of support we gave Afghanistan in the early '80s.

BALDWIN: I think one official was saying, look, we've run the ball so far but we cannot yet just walk off the field. I wish I had more time with you, but I do not, sir. But thank you so much.

Coming up here, we'll check in with Nic Robertson on the ground in Abbottabad, Pakistan and we'll find out what he is learning in and around that compound. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: We'll take you back to our breaking story in a moment, but quickly I want to pass this along. This is the big story out of Missouri. The intentional breach of one of the levees there in Cairo, Illinois, is easing flood pressure from the Mississippi River but not enough.

Engineers are set to breach another levee there on the river today. Take a look at that. Officials say water could still rise to record levels. Hundreds of square miles of farmland have been flooded.

President Obama did invite former president George W. Bush to ground zero has he heads there tomorrow, but the former president declines. So what is behind his decision? Wolf Blitzer is standing by with that and more, next.

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BALDWIN: And now let's go to Wolf Blitzer in Washington with the latest news off the Political Ticker. Wolf, a lot of us learned, we know that the president will be at ground zero tomorrow. He invited former President Bush to be there, and he politely declined, wanting to stay out of the limelight.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": He really has been consistent with his policy ever sense he left office with the exception of when he was promoting his book. But he doesn't want to upstage the president right now, doesn't want to be part of it. He will be in New York at ground zero with President Obama on the tenth anniversary of 9/11 in September.

But a spokesman for President Bush said President Bush will not be in attendance on Thursday. He appreciated the invite but has chosen in his post presidency to remain largely out of the spotlight. The spokesman for President Bush adding he continues to celebrate with all Americans this important victory in the war on terror.

It's interesting, Brooke, as you know, almost all of the top Bush administration officials were deeply involved in the aftermath, the years following 9/11. They've warmly praised president Obama for his decision, a very courageous decision, to send those Navy Seals to Abbottabad and go in there and kill bin Laden. So he's getting praised from all of them. Obviously they are also praising the men and women of the military, the intelligence community. But it's across the board.

So the president will spend time up at ground zero in New York tomorrow and will meet privately with some 9/11 families, which is certainly appropriate in the aftermath of bin Laden's death. We'll talk about this more at 5:00 p.m. in "THE SITUATION ROOM."

Among our guests, by the way, Representative Peter King, chairman of the House homeland security committee. He has strong views going on. He disagrees with the president's decision not to release the death photos of bin Laden.

He also thinks that the enhanced interrogation techniques, including waterboarding, did play a direct role in the eventual killing of bin Laden, although others in the Obama administration strongly disagree with him on that. Dennis McDonough, the deputy national security advisor to the president was on my show yesterday. He said it played no role in the enhanced interrogation techniques at all. We'll go into that as well. It's all good stuff, as you can imagine.

BALDWIN: Of course it is. And it's interesting hearing from different members of Congress as they were coming out of the Panetta hearings. Today this isn't a partisan issue at all. It really is a personal issue, whether or not you believe the public should be seeing these photos.

BLITZER: Right. And there are some liberals who disagree with the president, some conservatives who disagree with the president, and vice versa. You know, it cuts across the board.

So, it's -- I guess it's a personal decision. Those -- some people who have actually seen the death photos of bin Laden -- you know, he was shot before the eye and there's blood -- They have come out and they said, you know, it would not be appropriate.

And those doubters, the haters of America, they would think these photos were doctored or Photoshopped in any case, so it really doesn't make any difference.

BALDWIN: Yes, Wolf Blitzer, we will look forward to that Congressman King interview coming up in your hours. Thank you so much.