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President Obama Decides Against Release of Bin Laden Photos; View of Bin Laden's Neighborhood; Intel 'Treasure '; Family's Loss in Bin Laden Hunt; Lawmakers Kept Bin Laden Raid a Secret

Aired May 04, 2011 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And now top of the hour, a big, big decision, as we have been talking here, out of the White House this afternoon, President Obama officially saying he will not be releasing photos of a dead Osama bin Laden. The president says moral and security concerns are behind his decision.

I want you to listen to this. This is actually through the White House spokesperson, Jay Carney. This is how we heard the details this afternoon. This was at the White House briefing just a couple of hours ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: "We discussed this internally. Keep in mind that we are absolutely certain that this was him. We've done DNA sampling and testing. And so is no doubt that we killed Osama bin Laden.

"It is important for us to make sure that very graphic photos of somebody who was shot in the head are not floating around as an incitement to additional violence or as a propaganda tool. That's not who we are. We don't trot out this stuff as trophies."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And the president's decision comes despite a public appetite, perhaps you here, to see these photos and despite CIA Director Leon Panetta saying just last night that he believed these photos would be released.

Let's go to the White House. Let's go to CNN's Dan Lothian.

And, Dan, we learned from Jay Carney this afternoon -- this afternoon that the president made up his mind just this morning.

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Sure. That's right.

BALDWIN: And a lot of this had to do with concerns about national security interests in order to make these public or not. The president saying this is not who we are. Was there ever a point in time, Dan Lothian, where the president considered releasing a photo?

LOTHIAN: Well, that is such a good question. Aides here at the White House say that, as far as they know, the president was always firm in his belief that there was no reason to release these photos.

It's unclear, though, if in the early hours after Osama bin Laden had been killed and then it became clear that they had these photos, if at any time the president did think that perhaps he would release those photos.

What we do know, certainly, though, is that the president in the last few hours, as of yesterday, at least, was very firm in his belief that these photos should not be released.

One of the things that the president did do is listen to those who were around him, his advisers, listening to dissenting opinion. There were those who certainly believed that there was some interest in releasing these photos, but Jay Carney telling me today that it was the majority opinion that these photos should not be released, Brooke.

BALDWIN: What about, Dan, the notion that one of these photos may ultimately leak? Is the White House at all worried about that, preparing for that?

LOTHIAN: Look, that had to be something that was part of these discussions that were taking place in private, because, as you know, in this high-tech world that we live in, it's very easy for these kinds of photographs to get circulated around, to be leaked out. Certainly, the White House hanging on to those photos, but they have, according to sources up on the Hill, been shown around to lawmakers.

And so we can imagine that perhaps there is that possibility that somehow those photos could be leaked out there. So, that no doubt was part of the discussions, but, nonetheless, the White House believing that there was no interest for this country and certainly it would be a negative impact to national security if those photos were released.

BALDWIN: Dan Lothian, live at the White House. Dan, thank you.

Let's go right down the road to Capitol Hill. Senior congressional correspondent Dana Bash, she and her team have been gathering reaction from Congress.

And, Dana, I know just in the last hour we have spoken, you and your team have talked to different members of Congress here. What is the reaction you're hearing this hour?

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's mixed, just like it was mixed before the president made his decision. Many members of Congress -- as you have been saying so aptly, it doesn't matter about the party -- it just really matters about their personal decision or maybe the intelligence that they have been given -- have different points on whether or not this was or was not the right decision.

Some who actually thought that these photos should be released, like Peter King -- he is the Homeland Security chairman on the House side, is also a member of Congress from New York, for whom he says obviously that this is personal -- he had originally said that they should be released. Now he says he respects the president's decision. Others don't agree, for example, Senator Lindsey Graham. He is a senior member of the Armed Services Committee. This is what he said in part in a statement. Oops, I just lost it on my -- on my BlackBerry.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Oh, we have got it on the screen. Can you see it?

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: -- screen. I will read it right now.

"I know bin Laden is dead, but the best way to protect and defend our interests overseas is to prove that fact to the rest of the world."

And Lindsey Graham went on to say -- there's a little bit of a delay here. Pardon us. "I'm afraid the decision made today by President Obama will unnecessarily prolong this debate."

Thank you for your patience there. Technology doesn't always work. But you get the gist there.

BALDWIN: Yes.

BASH: He thinks that this is the wrong thing to do because, again, prolonging the debate. Other members of Congress have said the same thing. A mix, a mix on this decision.

BALDWIN: I have to pose a question to you that I just posed to Dan at the White House, and that being that -- and certainly this is part of the discussion, the pros and cons with regard to the president -- that there would be members some Congress that would also be concerned that these pictures will still leak anyway, Dana Bash.

BASH: Yes. They are. They are concerned, those who had said that they believed that these photos should be released.

Saxby Chambliss, he is one example. He is the top Republican on the House Intelligence -- excuse me -- the Senate Intelligence Committee. And he told our Ted Barrett and other producers that he believes that this is -- that this -- there's no way that this is not going to leak out, so why not control it?

On the other hand, I was just riding the subway with another Republican senator, the subway that goes underneath the Capitol, who told me that he thinks this is the absolutely right decision, because he believes, whether it leaks out or not, he says the United States and the president made the right decision. They're doing the right thing.

And, actually, just interestingly, what this senator told me is that what he knows, what he has been told, it's classified, but in terms of how they determined they DNA, he said it's unbelievable from his perspective. There's no way it is not accurate. And he's very comfortable with not releasing these photos because he believes that it is true.

BALDWIN: Dana Bash with the latest reaction there from the Hill -- Dana, thank you.

And another piece of this is the director of CIA, Leon Panetta, saying just last night he thought that the pictures of bin Laden would be released. So, in the course of 12 or so hours, what happened? Why wasn't Panetta on the same page as President Obama? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Again back to our developing story out of Washington, big, big news, President Obama's decision not to release pictures showing a dead Osama bin Laden.

Now, the Bush administration, if you look back just a little bit, remember, they decided to release a picture of terror leader Abu Musab al Zarqawi after he was killed in an operation in Iraq. We have also seen photos of two deceased Hussein sons.

So, given all of that, I do want to continue the conversation with our national political correspondent, Jessica Yellin.

And, so, Jessica, given some of the photos that we have seen, granted, from different administrations, why is the Obama White House, do you think, maybe more concerned about releasing this particular one?

JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I would make three points.

One is the two different administrations had very different orientations toward this side of things, just in terms of their posture on the war on terror and their image abroad, but, also, two other points on the specifics.

The Zarqawi photo in particular, if you will recall, he looked very almost peaceful. He was dead, but it looked like he was almost sleeping. And as has been described to me, the bin Laden photo in question, the one that is most identifiable to be -- that would have been released, was quite gory, as we have said, an open head wound above both eyes.

So, that's a very different kind of image. And then, of course, bin Laden is the leader of the movement. So, that taken together could have a -- there was concern it could have had an inciting effect and why is it necessary is the ultimate conclusion.

BALDWIN: And trotting out trophies, that's also what the president said. We don't want to do that.

YELLIN: Right.

BALDWIN: But there's also a bit of change in tone if you have looked at sort of the evolution of this story, you know, initially releasing a great deal of information to now fewer and fewer bits of pieces of the story are coming out.

Why is that, do you think?

YELLIN: Right. They're back to familiar form.

You know, it's their natural inclination to withhold and not -- as much as possible. And part of the problem was, when they have come out and been wrong on operational details, as John Brennan was on a few things yesterday, and then because they are rushing to tell everybody and you get something wrong, when you correct it, it raises potentially more doubts, more confusion, more questions. And so what's the point?

And then, at this point, there's some who feel that they should be sharing more. Why not? It's a wonderful accomplishment, et cetera. But the general view at the White House is, we have said enough and the American public knows what has happened and we don't have to share more details than is necessary.

BALDWIN: And we just -- I just spoke with Dana Bash on the Hill. It's sort of differing opinion. But it seems like, for the most part, different members of Congress ultimately respect the president's decision. You talk to a lot of people in D.C. What are your people telling you? Do they support the president?

YELLIN: Well, one thing we do have that is outside of D.C. is, we actually asked the American public. And polling -- a CNN poll shows that 56 percent of the American public wants -- wanted the photo released.

This was taken obviously before the president's decision, not in the last hour, but that's the general view of the public. I have also been asking around for potential Republican rivals of the president's in the political world. And the only person who has weighed in is Sarah Palin. And she strongly disagrees. She has tweeted, not surprisingly, that we should not be -- quote -- "pussyfooting around, politicking. No drama. It's part of the mission."

So, she wanted the photos out.

BALDWIN: OK, Sarah Palin's perspective.

Jessica Yellin, thank you so much.

And now watch what is coming up next.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN (voice-over): The bond between the U.S. and Pakistan at a crossroads.

REP. PETER KING (R-NY), CHAIR, HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE: You can't be coming to Congress and asking for $3 billion.

BALDWIN: As lawmakers question whether the U.S. can even trust Pakistan, don't forget, the Pakistanis have nuclear weapons. So, is the risk bigger now of al Qaeda getting them?

Also, new fears Pakistan is harboring some of the world's most wanted terrorists.

Plus, we're learning what Navy SEALs found on bin Laden's body. Apparently, the 9/11 mastermind was ready to run.

And the top-secret mission may not have been so top-secret after all. Find out who else knew about the battle for bin Laden and why the vice president is so surprised.

JOSEPH BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Not a single, solitary thing leaked.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: All right, back to our developing story and the big decision out of the White House today deciding not to release any photos showing Osama bin Laden on multiple grounds, including national security.

Now the administration appears to be sensitive to potential reaction not just here at home, but overseas, because these are some of the scenes that we've been seeing playing out here in the last couple of days in Pakistan since OBL's killing.

So far, the reaction we have seen has been relatively muted, but I do want to check in with senior international correspondent Nic Robertson who has been in Abbottabad, Pakistan. He's at the site of the compound that was, of course, raided by, you know, the teams of the American commandos and the Navy SEALS.

And, Nic, from what you have seen and heard there on the ground, do the administration's concerns about potential risks and reaction with regard to national security overseas, do they seem justified?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think there is always going to be a certain segment of the population here that is not going to believe what they heard from the United States or what they hear from their own government. And certainly I heard that today when I talked to the president of the bar association here.

He told me 400 to 500 lawyers came out and demonstrated today here in this city against the attack on that compound. And what they say is they say this whole thing is an entire fabrication, a fabrication by the United States government to improve President Obama's poll ratings, a fabrication by their own politicians to improve their political position here. They say the only thing that will convince them will be if somebody shows them photographs, and they were saying this before President Obama announced that he was going to reveal those very sensitive images.

Now, is that a constituency that President Obama is concerned about? Are these lawyers and people that follow them -- of course, these are intellectuals and they will be -- they will sort of perhaps be part of a trend in the community here -- will they represent a threat to the United States' national security? Perhaps not in the bigger picture.

So his choosing, President Obama's choosing not to win these people over. But there will be a smaller minority, al Qaeda sympathizers, that are perhaps not going to buy into this either. But again, that's perhaps not going to make a difference. But from what we've seen here, the photographs would be an important issue to convince everyone it really happened.

BALDWIN: It's interesting that part of the world that people see it so much as a fabrication.

What about just with regard to the death of bin Laden over the weekend? We just showed some of the video, some of the protests, and as I said, they are a bit muted. We saw flag burning, though we can't conclusively say it's as a result of his death.

But are you surprised at all with regard to the United States that it hasn't been bigger?

ROBERTSON: You know, there's a remarkable number of people that think Pakistan has been a victim of bin Laden and they're happy to see him gone. They recognize that he's a threat and a problem for the country. They really want this country to move forward.

I talked to a doctor a little earlier today and he said, look, it's really about time. He just said let's try to stop trying to create divisions between the United States and Pakistan. Let's get together, let's move forward, let's improve everyone's lot in life.

And I think, from what we've seen so far, the protests have been small and there are plenty of people here who think like that. They know the United States has got a lot that it can help Pakistan with. Education is one of the big issues right now.

So there is much here that people here really want to see progress in the relationship with the United States, and that seems to be the prevailing view. Also I think a bit because the government here has played down their role as well, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Let's talk about the compound.

You've been there for a couple of days now and you and I spoke yesterday about how some of the people living in the compounds were posing as gold merchants and you showed us how tall the walls are, up to 18 feet, and talking to some of the neighbors, there's this culture of privacy.

What more have you seen and learned there today, Nic?

ROBERTSON: Well, what we did today was just took a look around and try to answer that question, that bin Laden was living so close to the main military academy here, how come the army did not notice. So we took a look at the route from the academy to his compound. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: This is Pakistan's famous military academy. They've got a great big tank right outside of it, and it's famous because this is where all of Pakistan's army officers come to get trained, and it's literally about half a mile to a mile from where bin Laden is living. We're going to take a look at how far away it was and how to get there.

It's straight down this road, you'll see the road goes long and straight towards the mountains, plenty of soldiers around here. It's equivalent, if you'd like, like West Point in the United States or Sandhurst in Britain. It's absolutely famous throughout Pakistan.

Further up the road here, we've got a problem because where we were able to drive up the road yesterday and then take the back streets to get across to bin Laden's compound, today the police are up there. They have a checkpoint and they won't let us get through. So we are going to have to park up in a minute and dive down, take a walk down some of these little back alleys.

But this is about -- we said about a kilometer, just over half a mile from that military academy. It's quite an affluent area. There's another house being built, quite posh looking, a cut above the average here. It's also got protection along the railings and then just painting the walls.

This is an up-and-coming town. People here tell us that it's expanding quite rapidly. An ideal place for bin Laden to move into unnoticed.

If it wasn't for the police checkpoint we wouldn't have to go across the river, but this seems to be the only way that we can get to bin Laden's compound. He made it look easy. I'm not sure that I will. Some of them are a bit wobbly.

We're about a mile from the military academy now, and we're out in the farmlands, the fields. Cabbages over here, cows grazing over here. It's a completely different feel to the center of the town. And this is perhaps how bin Laden was able to hide away, cause there weren't so many people around.

More houses there. This one is almost as tall as bin Laden's, but it doesn't have the wall. But this one over here, it's quite large. The wall's not as high, but it does have the barbed wire. And again, the thing that made bin Laden's different, the wall was just higher, probably twice that height and it also had the barbed wire at the top.

This is about as close as we're going to be able to get to bin Laden's compound. It's about 500 miles that way. There's a police checkpoint here, army checkpoint over there, police there. The police are coming down here. We're not going to be able to go any further forward.

How come he was able to live here and get away with it and that intelligence services did not pick up on him sooner, that's going to be a lingering question and no indications we'll get an answer to it any time soon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: Well, the best the intelligence services here have been able to say so far is the fact that they didn't know anything was an embarrassment. But they do insist this wasn't because they were not looking or they're inept. It's just that they missed it -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: President Zardari saying that it's mere speculation that they were at all involved.

Nic Robertson, thank you so much from Abbottabad.

And now this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC HOLDER, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: CIA, Justice, other law enforcement agencies, other law enforcement agencies are all contributing people and machines to go through that material.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So we just saw the compound. Was bin Laden planning attacks from within the compound walls? There's an urgent rush to investigate everything those Navy SEALs found and took from the compound. And we're getting some hints here and the information we're getting is very, very significant. We'll get to that next.

Plus, we are also hearing what the Navy SEALs found on Osama bin Laden's body, and it sure sounds like the terrorist was getting ready to run somewhere.

Stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Let's keep in mind that there is this urgent going on right now highest levels within the CIA to decode and analyze the information that was seized from Osama bin Laden's computers from within his compound. And it's been described as a potential treasure trove in the effort to vanquish al Qaeda.

Homeland security correspondent Jeanne Meserve is live for me in D.C. with some new information.

And, Jeanne, what are you learning about what they found?

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, they are not giving us any specifics on what they found, but they are aggressively analyzing this information. And according to one U.S. official, they have the sense at this point that the collection is going to lead with this officials call -- yield, I should say, what this official calls valuable information about al Qaeda's plans and intentions. They also think it will give them some hint as to the relationships within al Qaeda.

The attorney general, Eric Holder, is up on Capitol Hill here today. He said if they got specific names they would be making decisions on whether to add names to the watch list, to the no fly list. But I just spoke with the U.S. official who told me at this point in time, no names have been added.

Information that has been gleamed from this material is already making its way to the Department of Homeland Security, and this morning the secretary of Homeland Security talked a bit about some of the protective actions that her department has been taking.

Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANET NAPOLITANO, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: We are and have been reviewing all open cases of potential al Qaeda core, AQAP and AQIM operatives possibly in the United States in conjunction with the FBI.

We are identifying any new targeting rules that should be instituted based on incoming intelligence.

We are continuing to strengthen our recurrent vetting for visa asylum and other benefit applicants and recipients in cooperation with the intel community.

We are deploying additional officers to non-secured areas at our large airports, the so-called Category-X airports, and we are providing additional information to all air carriers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MESERVE: Now, there is no estimate on how long it's going to take to fully analyze this material. We're told, at this point, there is no information about specific threats to the U.S. or U.S. interests abroad, but clearly everyone in government is well aware of the heightened risk of something happened as a retaliatory move and reaction to the death of Osama bin Laden -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Quickly, Jeanne, we are learning there are a few new nuggets coming out today with regard to the compound and specifically what was found in Osama bin Laden's -- in his salwar (ph), in his clothing.

What was sewn in there?

MESERVE: That's right. According to congressional sources, he had two phone numbers sewn into his clothing and also he had some money, $500, approximately, in euros, Brooke. So apparently he was prepared.

BALDWIN: He was prepared to run. Jeanne Meserve, thank you.

And there are questions over whether the intelligence that led to bin Laden came from waterboarding terror suspects, and that has sparked a debate about whether killing bin Laden is even legal.

Attorney General Eric Holder said it was absolutely within the law, but watch what's happened -- this was last night on "PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, AUTHOR, "THE TRIALS OF ZION": We shot a man in cold blood without giving him an opportunity to surrender, and we all think that was terrific. Let's face reality, we're a bunch of hypocrites, and that's probably necessary when you live in a real world with terrible people. You want to comply with the highest standards, but you also want to achieve the ends. You can't do that.

COL. MORRIS DAVIS, FORMER CHIEF PROSECUTOR AT GUANTANAMO: But respect for the rule of law that's always been our strong suit, and for the last decade we've run from the law to avoid it. This is an opportunity to reset and get back on the right track and quit living in fear.

DERSHOWITZ: So, Colonel, then let me ask you a question. Would you then have not authorized the shooting of Osama bin Laden if they found him unarmed and not resisting, which is apparently what really happened. Would you have said we should not have shot him? That's the rule of law.

DAVIS: I think you're making a huge assumption. There's a 40- minute fire fight. They've had suicide bombers, they've had any number of acts. To have to pat him down, I think, would be absurd.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: "PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT" reminder, 9:00 Eastern.

Now, to growing tensions between the United States and Pakistan. This has become a back and forth over who knew what and when. And clearly the U.S. does not exactly trusting the Pakistanis to fighter terror.

But here's what is being overlooked here. Pakistan has nuclear weapons. And apparently some of the world's most wanted terrorists. So, what happens if the U.S.-Pakistan relationship fizzles? That is next.

Plus, breaking news here. We're getting some information about a train that has derailed, causing a massive fire. More details on that as well. Stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Take a look at these pictures, live pictures. Massive flames. This is Portland, Oregon, thanks to our affiliate out there, KGW. You can see at least one fire truck. You can see the water doing what it can to try to put this thing out.

Here's what we know right now. It's a train derailment. If you're in the area, this is U.S. 30 West off Cornelius Pass Road. Two-alarm fire. You can see all the lumber. Perhaps that is what is sparking the whole thing. Huge, huge flames. The wreck involves lumber or logs and an overturned tanker car. This is all according to Oregon DOT.

Multiple crews from Portland fire, several fire departments dispatched. And evacuations are underway a half mile around this train derailment. Massive, massive plumes of smoke and fire here. Two-alarm fire. Portland, Oregon. We'll keep our eyes on this. Unbelievable pictures here. And as soon as we get more information, we will pass it along.

But I do want to get back to our big story this afternoon. The military operation that left Osama bin Laden dead is increasing the mistrust between the U.S. and Pakistan. Several U.S. officials have questioned Pakistan's claim it did not know that bin Laden was hiding near the PMA, the Pakistani Military Academy, which is pretty close to Islamabad, about 30 miles. And two senior officials tell CNN the U.S. government is asking Pakistan to explain who built and owned that compound where Osama bin Laden apparently lived and where we know he died.

For Pakistan's part, the government is criticizing the U.S. raid as unauthorized. This back and forth comes as Pakistanis take to the street in anti-American protests. Watch.

(VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: This was the scene playing out in a couple of different cities within Pakistan. You saw American flags that have been burned. Many of the protesters are carrying giant pictures with the caption "Osama is a Muslim hero." Adding to the fray here, Pakistan's former president Pervez Musharraf says that the U.S. operation to kill bin Laden violated Pakistan's sovereignty.

And now to this video here. This is Missouri. What happened was -- you see the woman being rescued out of the Car? She's rescued just in the nick of time before the car is fully submerged under that rushing river. I'm going to speak to one of the National Guardsman who rescued her heroically. That is next.

Plus, a mystery unfolding in Los Angeles. A woman's mummified body found in her home. And police say it could be a former Playboy playmate. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Now to more news unfolding right now. Rapid fire. Let's go.

Beginning in New Zealand, where an iReporter captures the terrifying moment this twister rips through Auckland from his office window. Take a look at it as it's shredding this building into pieces.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's coming in this direction, is it not? Oh, holy crap. I've never seen anything like it. Oh, look at the clouds. Oh, my gosh.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Now to this one. A mummified body in a Los Angeles area home believed to be that of a B-movie queen, 1950s Playboy centerfold. Yellowing mail and a (INAUDIBLE) led a neighbor to check on 82-year-old Yvette Vickers, who starred in the cult horror movie "Attack of the 50 Foot Woman."

The last time anyone actually remembers seeing Vickers was at least, four months ago. But authorities say the mummified body they found in her bedroom may have been there up to a year. They are using medical and dental records to confirm her identity.

And you know what? If gas is not already costing $4 a gallon where you live, folks, it probably will soon. Take a look at this, $3.98. We are flirting with that $4 mark, aren't we? Three dollars and ninety-eight cents the average price nationwide for regular gas today. And at least one industry analyst says it will hit $4 a gallon mark by the end of this week. Yikes!

The National Weather Service now confirming at least 178 tornadoes hit the South last week, making it the largest tornado outbreak in the U.S. history. But even that number, 178 is expected to rise. Alabama's governor, Robert Bentley, says his state will pay clean-up costs for the next 30 days to jump-start recovery efforts. More than 20 tornadoes touched down in Alabama, killing 250 people.

And they weren't there to be heroes, but a 93-year-old Missouri woman trapped by a torn of floodwater, that is exactly what these guys have become. Take a look at this.

(VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The woman there being pulled out of the car probably should have turned around when she saw the water. Instead, this grandmother, 93, tried driving across this flooded highway in southeast Missouri.

So thank goodness for the National Guard. These troops become her lifeline, pull her out of the water. The video obviously capturing this whole thing. She is expected to be fine. Junior Bombard is one of the two National Guardsman who came to her. He is joining me by phone from Poplar Bluff, Missouri.

And Junior, I know you told one of our producers, you said, you know, moments like this rescue is the reason you signed up to be in the National Guard. Sir, if you can take me back to Tuesday morning, were you nearby when the call came in?

JUNIOR BOMBARD, NATIONAL GUARDSMAN (via telephone): Actually, we were approximately about -- I would probably say five to six miles out.

BALDWIN: Five to six miles out. The water is rushing. I mean, it's breathtaking looking at this rescue here. Tell me how were you able to get her to safety?

BOMBARD: Well, I can tell you, first off, I was not alone as you can see in the video. Sergeant Bridges and I from the Missouri National Guard --

BALDWIN: Are you the one helping her out of the car, Junior? Are you the one helping her out of the car, and he was in the water or vice versa?

BOMBARD: I am the one helping her out of the car, yes, ma'am. Out of the car, yes, ma'am.

BALDWIN: Forgive me for interrupting. Continue.

BOMBARD: Oh. Well, Sergeant Bridges and I get, we get call from the Butler County Sheriff's Department and we head out that way. And we noticed that the car was on the embankment of a field. Well, Sergeant Bridges was already out of the LNTV and I was looking up the winch cable to assist us out to her vehicle. Well, about that time, Sergeant Bridges was already out in the water assessing the dangers that (INAUDIBLE) her and the same time.

BALDWIN: Of course you're putting yourself in harm's risk with the rushing water. Out to save her life. And you're pulling her out of the car. Just curious, was she saying anything to you at that point or was she just - you know, silently thankful that you were there?

BOMBARD: Well, I can tell you right now when I got to her, the only thing that I saw was an ear to ear grin on her face. So, I'm pretty sure she was happy to see us.

BALDWIN: So, you get her out, Junior. Have you spoken with her since? She's OK, right?

BOMBARD: Yes, ma'am. We were just simply doing our jobs.

BALDWIN: Doing your jobs. That's pretty awesome. Saving a life. You did an amazing job. And we thank you for it, Junior Bombard from Missouri National Guard. Thank you so much for calling in. Bravo.

And coming up next, he is virtually synonymous with peace and compassion. But did you hear what the Dalai Lama has said about Bin Laden's death? And this one might surprise you.

Plus, the father of the first soldier killed in the hunt for Bin Laden in Afghanistan is now speaking out. Find out what he wrote on his Facebook page. His emotional story. We'll share it next.

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BALDWIN: The father of the very first American killed while fighting in Afghanistan is now speaking out about Osama Bin Laden's death and the emotion is overwhelming. CNN's Steve Mattingly shares his story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEVE MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When boots first hit the ground in Afghanistan, Mike Spann's goal was to catch Osama Bin Laden.

Instead, he became the first American to die fighting. Ten years later, Spann's father, Johnny takes the news of Bin Laden's death with a sense of justice and loss.

JOHNNY SPANN, MICHAEL SPANN'S FATHER: There is not a doubt in my mind that this would have been a day of victory for Mike, to know that he was caught and was killed, and some form of justice was served on him.

MATTINGLY: Mike Spann was a young father of three, an ex-Marine and CIA officer who was killed November 2001 in a prison uprising near Mosari, Shariff.

Not long before he could be seen on video interrogating John Walker Lynn, the so-called American Taliban. Spann was looking for any bit of information in those critical early days to get closer to Bin Laden.

SPANN: I really feel like Mike always thought that Osama Bin Laden was the cause and he was the cause. He was the leader of al Qaeda. He's the one that recruited the people to kill Americans.

MATTINGLY: But Johnny Spann says when he heard about Bin Laden's death, he did not celebrate. Everything he had to say about Bin Laden was summed up on Facebook. "It's a great day. That S.O.B. is dead."

The next morning, he placed fresh flowers at his son's memorial in his home town city hall in Windfield, Alabama.

(on camera): Over the last 10 years, Spann says his greatest concern wasn't whether Bin Laden might one day be out of the picture. It's that people here might someday forget, forget the sacrifices that people like his son had to make.

(voice-over): And perhaps worse, Spann worries Americans will forget to be vigilant.

SPANN: For us to say, OK, the fight is over and throw up our hands and have a big party, that's not the way we feel because Mike is still gone. There is still an empty seat at the table.

MATTINGLY: David Mattingly, CNN, Alabama. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Well, a lot of people weighing in on Bin Laden's death, including the Dalai Lama. He's been asked about his death.

According to the "L.A. Times," the Dalai Lama says Bin Laden may have deserved compassion and forgiveness as a human being, but he reportedly went to say, I'm quoting, quote "forgiveness doesn't mean forget what happened. If something is serious and it is necessary to take counter-measures, you have to take counter-measures."

The Bin Laden question came up yesterday during the Dalai Lama's appearance at the University of Southern California.

We are a couple of minutes away from Mr. Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM."

Wolf, I know you have a big guest. A lot of people wanting to hear from the chair of the House Homeland Security Committee, Representative Peter King. I remember him speaking yesterday at the Panetta briefing. He has seen the pictures and he says they should have been released?

WOLF BLITZER, HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": He says they should have been released. I'm not so sure he's seen the pictures. I think they've been to him what the pictures were, but I don't think he's physically actually seen the pictures.

But, you know, he respects the president and says, this is a decision that the commander in chief has to make so he's not going to criticize the president on this. He does disagree with the White House on another very sensitive issue, whether or not the so-called enhanced interrogation techniques on detainees at Guantanamo Bay played a role, any role in the eventual finding and killing of Bin Laden.

He says that they did, the White House says that they did not. You'll hear his side of the story. We'll assess with Gloria Borger who has been doing extensive reporting on this. We'll bring her and I think all of us will have a little bit more knowledge about whether or not those enhanced interrogation techniques, which some people call torture.

Other people use the example of waterboarding. Whether or not they played a role or didn't play a role. What we do know for sure, Brooke, and you know this, and our viewers know it, the Obama administration has pushed aside all of those enhanced interrogation techniques.

They are not using them right now and that is that. So we'll have an extensive look at that. We'll also bring in a professor, one of the most knowledgeable scholars from the Middle East. I'm going to ask him if releasing those photos of a dead Bin Laden would or would not have made a difference. Should they have been released, not released? So we'll have extensive coverage on all of this.

BALDWIN: Enjoy always, Dr. Jambi on your program. Wolf Blitzer, we'll see you in a matter of minutes. Thank you.

BLITZER: Thank you.

BALDWIN: And some in Congress have in the past leaked information, but have you heard this?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Although for over several months, we were in the process of planning it and there were as many as 16 members of Congress who were briefed on it, not a single, solitary thing leaked.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: For months the vice president says several -- he mentioned 16 -- congressional members knew about the operation to kill Osama Bin Laden, but kept it all a secret. Joe Johns thought this was pretty fascinating. So this was his assignment to dig on this, Joe and I will talk next.

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BALDWIN: Now let's take a look at tomorrow's news today. I want to fast forward and begin with the fact that President Obama will be travelling to New York heading to Ground Zero to meet with family members of the victims of 9/11.

Also tomorrow, the U.S. Census Bureau releasing more demographic data from the 2010 census. And one more note, just because we can, happy almost Cinco de Mayo, May 5th expect celebrations across the country.

Going back to the big story here, and while the details over Bin Laden's death are still eking out. One thing is pretty clear, before the president's address late Sunday night, there were some people, multiple people who apparently knew something big was about to happen.

Joe Johns is here with the "Political Pop." Joe, we heard from the vice president. I mean, I think he mentioned 16, 16 members of Congress.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right and it's anybody's guess who they are, but typically when you have a situation on Capitol Hill where members of Congress are briefed, you'll get the top members of the intelligence committees in the House and Senate.

Plus the leadership plus a handful of others and it works out to about 16 people. But let's listen to what the vice president said when he talked about being proud of the fact that none of this information got out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: There was such an absolute overwhelming desire to accomplish this mission that although for over several months we were in the process of planning it. And there were as many as 16 members of Congress who were briefed on it, not a single, solitary thing leaked. I find that absolutely amazing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: Yes, amazing maybe. But I've got to tell you, the truth is that over the last 10 years in Washington, D.C., there have been numerous times when people thought Osama Bin Laden was captured, killed, hemmed up, what have you.

Each and every one of those times it fizzled. I personally know of times when media people had bags packed ready to go. So this would have been a situation where, yes, Osama Bin Laden, they are going to get him. I've heard that before. Sort of the sky is falling. People wouldn't have believed it.

BALDWIN: Yes, so people have their go bags, but it would have been all mute since this was the actual fact and no one actually leaked it. But do we know yet Joe -- I know we don't know who, but when these members of Congress actually found out about the operation?

JOHNS: We really don't. But what we do know is that there are some members of Congress who suggest -- they started getting wind that something was going on recently with Osama Bin Laden, all the way back to January.

So if that's true, then, there were people who at least knew something was happening. It's not clear at all that members of Congress got a blow by blow while it as wall going down Sunday night until after the fact.

BALDWIN: Do we know what it was that those 16 members of Congress -- did they know that there was this operation to be had in an Abbottabad and that it was going after OBL? Or did they just know it was a huge target?

JOHNS: Absolutely not sure on the amount of detail. My discussions with people were that we knew something was happening with Osama Bin Laden and that it had to do within an assumed take down.

BALDWIN: OK. When the news though - you know, when it finally broke on social media, was it Congress at all or the chief of the staff of a former Pentagon official and possibly "The Rock" who were tweeting. But they were kind of right. That's so random.

JOHNS: Right, OK. So this was Sunday night around 10:24 Eastern Time. You're right. Keith Urban who's the chief of staff for former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld tweets out that something is happening.

Now Keith Urban you can sort of understand is obviously connected and there have been published reports that say he got his information from a television news producer, but that leaves Duane "The Rock" Johnson who is best known for a bunch of action movies and appearing as a host on WWE, professional wrestling. He tweets out right around 10:24 p.m. Eastern time as well, you know, a half an hour or so before this news got out, yes, there's something going on. He's proud of America, proud to be an American, and that it's huge. Who knows? I mean --

BALDWIN: You've reached out to them. They are not calling you back, are they?

JOHNS: Exactly right. Publicists, I've tried the publicists, everything. No luck. He did put out a statement today, but no clue on where he got that information.

BALDWIN: How odd "The Rock" and with that, Joe Johns, I thank you.

Let's send things off now to Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM." Wolf, to you.