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Closer Look at Taliban in Pakistan; Students Pushing for High- Level Classes; Navy SEALs Fear Retaliation; Suicide Bombings Today in Pakistan Claimed as Revenge for Bin Laden Killing; Business Takes It To the Mattresses

Aired May 13, 2011 - 13:59   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: We begin this hour with the first apparent revenge of the death of Osama bin Laden. At least 80 people are dead in northwest Pakistan after two suicide bombings for which the Pakistani Taliban is claiming responsibility. Almost all the victims were newly trained soldiers, causalities of a war they were just beginning to fight.

Despite the apparent anger by the Pakistani government over how the bin Laden raid went down, the Pakistani Taliban accuses the regime of helping the U.S. pinpoint the al Qaeda leader. And it warns, quote, "Pakistani and U.S. forces should be ready for more attacks."

I want to bring in my CNN colleague who has reported on this region very extensively, Tim Lister.

How are you?

TIM LISTER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm good, Randi. It's nice to be here.

KAYE: I'm so glad you are here to talk about this, because I know you are an expert in this area.

So, first, if you would, just tell me a little about the Taliban there in Pakistan. Who are they?

LISTER: Well, it's really important to note that they are not the same as the Afghan Taliban. They grew up in very different circumstances, and they grew up precisely because, after 9/11, President George W. Bush said to the Pakistanis, you are either with us or you're against us. And that pushed the Pakistanis into tribal territories to deal with the Arab fighters and the foreigners who were there who belonged to al Qaeda.

Once they were there, they alienated a lot of the local people, and gradually, the Pakistani Taliban were formed. They came together, formally speaking, in 2007. And at time a couple of years after that, they were really close to Islamabad. They had areas of control less than 60 miles from the capital, Islamabad. So, they have become a much more powerful organization over the last two to three years.

KAYE: So that is how they emerged. I mean, do they have any ties to al Qaeda and the Afghan Taliban? LISTER: Absolutely, they do. And they've particularly become very closely allied with al Qaeda, partly because of force of circumstance. Al Qaeda suffered the drone campaign, and at the same time, the Pakistani Taliban has suffered from several military offenses by the Pakistani army. So they've been kind of forced into an alliance.

But it's almost as if the Pakistani Taliban have become the armed wing of al Qaeda. They are much, much more widespread in Pakistan, and they have grown up because, if you like, of institutional inertia. And by the time the Pakistani authorities realized what a dangerous force they were, it was too late. They have driven them out of one or two areas, but they are still extremely strong in the border land areas with Afghanistan close to where this explosion took place today, and have also began to spread their tentacles out, not just across Pakistan, but overseas, too.

KAYE: That certainly doesn't sound like good news.

What about in terms of Pakistan, itself? I mean, how much of a danger, as we see them spreading throughout Pakistan and doing something like they are taking credit for today, how much of a danger are they, do you think, to Pakistan?

LISTER: I think they are a very big danger to the authority of the state in Pakistan because they have spread out into the Pakistani heartland, into Punjab. They are also, as part of their mandate, if you like, beginning to sow sectarian discord by bombing Sufi shrines, by taking on Shia groups.

That's very much al Qaeda's mantle as well. That's what al Qaeda did in Iraq going after the Shia.

So it's a very dangerous brand of Sunni, very conservative, very austere, and very much attached to the sort of al Qaeda Wahhabi ideology -- no music, women must stay indoors, and so forth. Very conservative and very close aligned ideologically to what al Qaeda espouses.

KAYE: And we saw this explosion today. I mean, is this sort of their M.O.? Is this what they're capable of doing, or do they have other tactics as well?

LISTER: Oh, they have other tactics, but this is very typical. And it's no accident that they went after the frontier corps.

The frontier corps had been responsible in all the tribal territories for taking on the Pakistani Taliban and al Qaeda. And this is a revenge attack on them for that, and it could specifically be from one emir, if you like, on one particular tribal agency where the army has been very busy lately.

It should be stressed the Pakistani Taliban are not a cohesive organization led by a Mullah Omar. They're not. They're very, very divided and fractured, but at the same time, they have a lot of warlords who are capable of inflicting really tremendous damage on Pakistan, especially in the northwest, but increasingly in places like Lahore and Karachi, too.

KAYE: So they don't have a bin Laden, say? They don't have one strong leader?

LISTER: If they have one, it's a guy called Hakimullah Mehsud (ph). And he appeared next to the Jordanian suicide bomber who went to Khost, if you remember, and killed those CIA employees. He appeared next to him in a video that was recorded before that happened to show that the Pakistani Taliban was ready to start operations beyond the immediate Pakistani (INAUDIBLE).

And last year, in New York, the Times Square bombing was carried out by a man who had training from the Pakistani Taliban. Not from al Qaeda. He was involved with the Pakistani Taliban.

KAYE: It's amazing, you know, because we hear so much about al Qaeda and al-Shabaab and other groups, and now we're talking here about the Pakistani Taliban.

LISTER: Yet another one.

KAYE: So we're going to have to continue this discussion because it certainly is fascinating.

Tim Lister, thank you.

In the days after the raid that killed Osama bin Laden, the world was captivated, even hungry, actually, for more details on the operation, on bin Laden's last moments, and on SEAL Team 6. Well, those details kept trickling out from the president, the Pentagon, and other top officials close to the operation, but that has cast an unwanted spotlight on a SEAL team who, by its very nature, must remain elusive.

That brings me to today's "Sound Effect." Listen to what Defense Secretary Robert Gates says about how this all unraveled and growing concerns over security.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT GATES, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Frankly, a week ago Sunday in the Situation Room, we all agreed that we would not release any operational details from the effort to take out bin Laden. That all fell apart on Monday, the next day.

The one thing I would tell you, though, is that I think there has been a consistent and effective effort to protect the identities of those who participated in the raid, and I think --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: So the question now is, does too much information compromise the security of the Navy SEALs and their families? Some feedback from some people who are in the know, that is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KAYE: There is somewhat of a blame game playing out right now in Washington, and it all centers around one question -- was too much information given out about the Navy SEALs involved in the mission that killed Osama bin Laden?

Well, last hour, I posed that question to CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES" host, Howard Kurtz, and others, and we are going to tell you about that in just a moment.

But first, I want to talk to you about education.

Soledad O'Brien here at CNN has a wonderful documentary happening this weekend about education in America. Did you know that right now, U.S. students rank 17th in science and 25th in math among 34 industrialized nations? And America's financial future in the 21st century will be driven by a high-tech marketplace?

But many students say they aren't getting access to high-level math and science classes that they need to compete. So, as part of this documentary airing on CNN, Soledad O'Brien talked to a public school student in Phoenix, Arizona, who is taking her education into her own hands.

Soledad joins us from New York.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: And Randi, that girl is Maria Castro.

Maria Castro is representative of a lot of American students in that she actually doesn't really have access to, either because she's choosing not to or it's not available, high-level math and science classes. She is also representative of the growing population of students in American schools. She's Latino.

So we wanted to take a look though at how Maria Castro is different, because when she was not getting her high-level classes, she decided to change things.

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maria, what is the ratios of the 45?

MARIA CASTRO, STUDENT: The one, the one and the radical two.

O'BRIEN (voice-over): Maria wants a career that pays well and is pushing herself and her school to get it.

CASTRO: I was like, well, why isn't anybody, like, challenging me? I mean, I would do a whole week's lesson in equestrian (ph), and, I was just like, OK, this is too simple for me. Like, OK, what's next?

O'BRIEN (on camera): Do you worry that when you go off to college you're not going to be prepared to compete? CASTRO: Yes. I -- and especially like, an example, English, we're learning how to capitalize and when to capitalize. I mean, that's things that my little sister should be learning, you know.

O'BRIEN (voice-over): It's because more than half of the 2,200 students at Maria's school don't pass statewide tests in reading and math.

FREDI LAJVARDI, TEACHER: When they come to school, you know, they come with a fourth grade reading level and behind in math. So we really have a lot of catching up to do.

CASTRO: It's just my little sister and I.

O'BRIEN (on camera): Everybody is older and moved out?

CASTRO: Everybody moved out.

O'BRIEN (voice-over): She's the sixth of seven children.

CASTRO: All of my brothers and sisters were straight A students.

O'BRIEN (on camera): And they went from being A students to --

CASTRO: Dropping out.

My sister, she got pregnant when she was younger. And like everybody was kind of just expecting me to follow into their same footsteps, you know.

O'BRIEN (voice-over): Everybody including her father. She overheard him two years ago at her quinceanera, her 15th birthday party.

CASTRO: He was like, it's just a matter of time before she fails.

O'BRIEN (on camera): Fails?

CASTRO: Yes.

CASTRO: He was just like -- it doesn't really matter what she does right now. I mean, she'll eventually give up.

O'BRIEN: Did it motivate you in any way?

CASTRO: Yes, it did.

O'BRIEN: It did?

CASTRO: Yes. Now, it's like, OK, if I'm going to get straight As, it's not just for you anymore, it's for me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: And I think, Randi, there's lots of blame to go around, certainly. You can blame the parents, you can blame the teachers, you can blame failing schools, you can blame the students for being lazy, you can blame, blame, blame. Ultimately, though, what we wanted to explore in our documentary was, what is working?

And we took a look at a robotics competition called FIRST. That is, they are not trying to change education, they're trying to change American culture and make robotics and engineering and science and technology cool.

Back to you.

KAYE: Soledad, thank you very much. And we'll be sure to tune into your documentary this weekend.

On the heels of the raid of Osama bin Laden's compound, and the amount of information released, the question becomes, does too much information compromise the security of the Navy SEALs and their families?

Some feedback from some people who know all about it, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: There is somewhat of a blame game playing out right now in Washington, and it all centers around one question -- was too much information given out about the Navy SEALs involved in the mission that killed Osama bin Laden?

Last hour I posed that question to CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES" host Howard Kurtz; Debbie Lee, who is the founder of the group America's Mighty Warriors; and CNN's national security contributor, Fran Townsend.

Here is part of that discussion.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAYE: First, let's take you back to the night of May 1st, when we first heard President Obama report the news of the death of Osama bin Laden, and then we'll talk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today, at my direction, the United States launched a targeted operation against that compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan. A small team of Americans carried out the operation with extraordinary courage and capability.

No Americans were harmed. They took care to avoid civilian casualties. After a firefight, they killed Osama bin Laden and took custody of his body.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: OK. So that night was the first time that we heard some limited details about the mission.

Howard, let me start with you. Should the buck have stopped there?

HOWARD KURTZ, HOST, "RELIABLE SOURCES": Well, maybe. But, you know, 15 minutes after the president spoke, I was on a conference call with White House officials who were giving out a fair number of details about this mission. And the next day, John Brennan, the counterterrorism chief, was brought in before the cameras and talked more about it.

So it seems to me that Bob Gates' beef here is not with the press, even though we have been very voracious for details about just what went down in Pakistan, but with his own administration colleagues. He says, we had an agreement in the Situation Room not to say much about this, and that fell apart.

KAYE: All right. I'm going to get to the others in just a second here, but I want to talk about Monday, May 2nd, during the White House briefing, because you brought it up, Howard, that day that we heard from Press Secretary Jay Carney and John Brennan, deputy national security adviser. And he told us even more about this mission, so let's listen to what he said and then we'll get more reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BRENNAN, WHITE HOUSE COUNTERTERRORISM ADVISER: We were able to monitor the situation in real time and we were able to have regular updates, and to ensure that we were -- had real-time visibility into the progress of the operation. I'm not going to go into details about what type of visuals we had or what type of pieces (ph) that were there, but it gave us the ability to actually track it on an ongoing basis.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: And then, of course, all the details eventually came out about SEAL Team Six and who -- at least what their capabilities were, that they had these helicopters. All of that detail eventually came out.

Debbie, do you think that was telling the public too much about who exactly was involved in this operation?

DEBBIE LEE, FOUNDER, AMERICA'S MIGHTY WARRIORS: I think that it very much was. You know, the Navy SEALs have earned the title as the quiet professionals, and that is what they do.

They go in, they are successful with their mission, they get out, and nobody even knows that they have been there. And we, as an American people, I'm a very proud mother of a Navy SEAL who willingly sacrificed his life for this country.

I have adopted boys. They call me "Mama Lee" (ph). And I'm so proud of them and what they accomplish. And it's our natural instinct to want to praise them, to sing their praises, and who they are and what they do, but we should not even have known. As the American population, we shouldn't even have known it was the Navy SEALs that went in.

KAYE: And Fran, I want to bring you in, because Howard had said that he doesn't think -- certainly they're not pointing fingers at the media for asking too many questions. But how do you think this happened? I mean, do you think too many details were let out to the public?

FRAN TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: I do, Randi. But I think we have to distinguish between the official briefings by Jay and John Brennan, which Howie referred to, and then all of the excruciating level of detail that has leaked out.

Every administration typically will do an on-the-record briefing after a major incident or operation like that. And so -- and John Brennan, actually, in the clip we played, said he was not going to discuss the details of it.

After the fact, there have been tons of details that have come out that I think are damaging. To the extent people can learn about the tactics, the training of the Navy SEALs and our Special Operations Forces, it's very dangerous. It makes it more dangerous for them in the future.

KURTZ: I think, Fran, that there's two different collisions going on here. On the one hand, the administration, understandably, wants to take some political credit for what was a very gutsy call by President Obama and a very successful mission, and that's why I think you see a lot of this leaking, which also keeps the story alive.

At the same time, I couldn't agree more that the operational details for future missions, and certainly for protecting the identities of those on the team who were involved, many of those probably should remain secret. And, of course, if administration officials weren't whispering this to reporters, we would have no way of publishing it or airing it.

KAYE: I do want to point out that we just got some information from the chief of naval operations, and he is telling CNN this afternoon that he is "absolutely confident" -- those are his words -- that the families of the Navy SEALs will be protected. So, those involved in the raid on the compound will be protected.

I also want to share this with you. Former CIA counterterrorism analyst Michael Scheuer, he spoke to Eliot Spitzer last night, and said, quite frankly, that the White House administration said too much.

So let's listen to what he said as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL SCHEUER, FMR. CIA COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: I think this administration, at least in the White House, is out of control, sir. The information about the stealth helicopters, the information about the CIA safe house, the details about bin Laden's habit, his plannings, his contacts, all of that compromised further operations, are going to make further operations harder, more difficult, probably more bloody.

And I think it's really adolescent to think that this information came from the White House Press Office. It would never have this classified level of information. If it came from anywhere, it was from John Brennan's office, the czar for counterterrorism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: So, Fran, is he right? You know how all this works inside the White House. Does the blame fall on John Brennan's office?

TOWNSEND: Look, I was with John Brennan today, who was, himself, sort of suggesting his own frustration with the leaks.

What happens here, I don't believe it's John Brennan's office. And information that comes out of the individual advisers doesn't come out without there being coordination across the interagency. And so I just don't buy that at all.

What happens is this information resides down inside most of the agencies. And so what will happen -- it's a frustration to every administration -- individuals will begin to leak things not because they are being authorized to do it, but to prove that they had some access, to prove their own credibility with the press. And it's a frustration. It's very difficult to get a handle on for John Brennan or the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAYE: Last hour, the chief of naval operations told CNN that he is confident that the families of the SEALs involved in that operation will be protected. I just wanted to reiterate that so you know that at home.

Devastating storms and floods. Is the worst over? Severe weather expert Chad Myers joins us next with what we need to know, so don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(WEATHER REPORT)

KAYE: Well, get ready for some celebrity math. What's the square root of 6.5 minus Charlie Sheen? And what -- or, rather, who -- is the common denominator? The tall, dark and handsome answer is in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Let's get you caught up on today's headlines and other news that you might have missed. The flooding along the Mississippi River is slowly leaving a widespread path of destruction as it snakes southward through Arkansas and Mississippi. These are the towns where the river will crest in the coming days. The focus right now is ahead of the flood's crest in Louisiana.

As they've done in other states, the Army Corps of Engineers is considering opening up a major spillway and flooding nearby communities to spare larger cities like Baton Rouge and New Orleans. That means that hundreds of people in southeast Louisiana could lose their homes, and many are already evacuating. The flood has left thousands homeless in the Midwest and the South.

U.S. intelligence officials were able to interrogate the three widows of Osama bin Laden who were inside of the compound when he was killed. That includes his young wife, seen here, who charged the SEALs and was actually shot in the leg. But senior officials say the three women who were all interviewed together were hostile towards the Americans. The eldest of the three spoke for the group as several members of Pakistan's intelligence agency stood in the room. The U.S. intelligence agencies say that the wives gave up very little new information, but they may question the women again.

Would you want to buy anything from the Unabomber? You'll remember Ted Kaczynski, now 68, killed three people and wounded nearly two dozen others in a series of bombings between 1978 and 1995.

Well, take a look at these -- these are some of Kaczynski personal items the U.S. Marshals are auctioning off online. The money will help to compensate some of Kaczynski's victims. People will be able to bid on 60 items over a two-week period starting next Wednesday. Other items up for sale, Kaczynski's driver's licenses, his birth certificates, checks and school transcript -- just in case you want a piece of any of that.

Georgia Governor Nathan Deal has signed a controversial immigration bill into law. That took place just about an hour ago. Outside, a small group of protesters demonstrated in front of the state capitol. Many say the law is the toughest crackdown against illegal immigrants in the nation.

It requires state employers to check the immigration status of new workers through a government ID system. It also gives police more power to check whether suspects are legal. Arizona passed a similar law, but a judge ruled the law unconstitutional and stopped it from taking effect.

Well, Charlie Sheen is out -- we knew that. But Ashton Kutcher is officially in. Yes, it's official. CBS and Warner Brothers just announced that Kutcher is joining the sitcom, "Two and a Half Men." In a statement, Kutcher says he can't replace Sheen but will work hard to, quote, "entertain the hell out of people."

Just last night, before the announcement, the actor teased his followers for the hint, asking what's the square root of 6.25, the answer just happens to be 2.5, and as in "Two and a Half Men." An eye for an eye: the Pakistan Taliban seeking revenge for Osama bin Laden -- where the attack happened and the victims. Up next in "Globe Trekking" with the one and only Michael Holmes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: As we've mentioned, the Pakistan Taliban wasted little time, claiming responsibility for a deadly attack in revenge for the death of Osama bin Laden.

Michael Holmes joins us for his take on all of this.

So, what is the latest, first off, on the attack?

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR/CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, sort that out first.

Bin Laden's followers had vowed revenge, as we know, after he was taken out by the U.S. Navy SEALs. And what we have today was twin suicide bombings ripped through a military training camp. These guys were all recruits. This is in the northwestern part of the country, you can see some of the aftermath there.

At least 80 killed, most of them recruits who'd just finished their training.

KAYE: And hasn't the Pakistani military actually launched strikes against the Taliban in this area?

HOLMES: They have. The area is actually a Taliban stronghold. There's been a lot of military attacks, air attacks for more than a year now in that particular area.

Now, the Pakistan Taliban -- they're not really the same as the Afghan Taliban. There are similarities, there's a lot of support, they do liaison, but they're not the same group. There are mostly ethnic Pashtuns, different factions that are in the Waziristan area, you know, that northwestern Frontier we talk about, and other tribal areas.

The main target is the Pakistan government because of its alliance with the United States.

KAYE: So, what are the Pakistan Taliban fighting for if they're different?

HOLMES: Well, post-9/11 support for the U.S. from the Pakistan government -- they don't agree with that at all. And so, they are angry about that. They want revenge there, and they are anti- government, by opposing the alliance with the United States.

And the other thing that's interesting about this, you look back at a lot of the groups, the radical groups in Pakistan, a lot of them, including the Pakistan Taliban, were fostered by the ISI, the Pakistan intelligence services, to become, I don't know, part of the bulwark, if you like, against India, the right India. And so, they fostered these various groups. Many of them Islamic extremist groups which are now starting to turn against them in many ways, and you are seeing that with the Pakistan Taliban as well. They're partly a creation and have the support of some elements of the ISI and yet, they're doing things like this as well. It's like creating something you thought was going to work and it turns against you.

KAYE: From what you know about them, do they seem like they are organized?

HOLMES: Yes, they are. They are very organized. They don't -- they don't -- they have links with the Taliban in Afghanistan, but they don't fight in Afghanistan. Their aim is to fight within Pakistan. They want to basically see the overthrow of the government as it exists now, and have Afghanistan pre-9/11 style government in Pakistan.

You and I have talked about this before, and the nervousness in the West about this, because unlike Afghanistan which is, you know, not exactly the most stable or successful states you got in Pakistan, a country with nuclear weapon, and growing arsenal as well. They are suspicion that they'll over take Britain of nuclear warheads.

KAYE: And when you think about handing over, you know, or just helping Pakistan, you know, these were newly-trained soldiers, right, who were killed?

HOLMES: Oh, yes, they just graduated, most of them. Yes, and dozens more wounded as well. I mean, this was a real strike.

They say it was in relation to or retaliation to bin Laden's death. I mean, you can take that with a grain of salt perhaps. This was probably organized ahead of time. You don't just, sort of, get this, sort of, thing up and running with a target like that within a week.

KAYE: Right.

HOLMES: So, it may or may not have been. It just seems to be a convenient place to put it, you know? It's -- yes.

KAYE: Let's turn to China, a really bizarre story. "The New York Times" has certainly covered this extensively -- a bizarre reaction to these anti-government protests throughout the region and the word "jasmine."

HOLMES: Yes. That's right, because it was called the "jasmine revolution" when it started up. And there were anonymous calls in China for people to wear jasmine and walk around with jasmine, and this would be sort of their little protest if you like, you know? And you recall, this all began with the Tunisian revolt. It starred everything and that ousted the long-time president there, and that was called the "jasmine revolution." So, China takes all steps to prevent a similar, let's call it a "jasmine revolt" breaking out in the mainland. KAYE: They seem a little bit skittish, a little paranoid. I mean, they've actually blocked text messages with the word "jasmine"?

HOLMES: With the Chinese character jasmine. I mean, that and a lot of other things. They canceled the International Jasmine Cultural Festival, because it's got the word jasmine in it. There were videos -- there were old videos actually of the Chinese president singing an ancient old song praising the jasmine flower and its beauty, pulled off of the Web.

KAYE: Wow.

HOLMES: Yes.

KAYE: And it's also actually causing the prices for the jasmine plant to plummet.

HOLMES: Yes. To plummet, because nobody is buying them anymore. They've gone around -- they've gone around to the flower markets. They've gone around to individual flower sellers. They've gone around the flower growers and said, yes, don't sell these, will you?

And so, yes, putting a lot of pressure on them, and a lot of people were like, what? Why?

And the other thing that you got to put in the backdrop here, you've got also, in addition to jasmine flowers, you've got a crackdown on the dissidents. You've got a crackdown --

KAYE: Like the bloggers, taken all of them.

HOLMES: Yes, absolutely. And we talked about when it happened -- there's been a crackdown on foreign journalists as well. Don't be going out meeting people on the streets. You got to have permission to do just about anything in China right now.

And we found on CNN International, if you and I were having this conversation on CNN International right now, they would have dipped to us black by now.

KAYE: Really?

HOLMES: Oh, yes, they monitor everything. We tested it once live, and we said the word "Tiananmen Square" --

KAYE: And you were out --

HOLMES: We've gone blacked in China. When you start talking at something else, you're back up again. They monitor these things. They keep a very tight lid on stuff.

KAYE: Very paranoid.

HOLMES: Yes.

KAYE: All right, Michael, very interesting. HOLMES: Nice to be sitting (ph).

KAYE: Yes. Do you like this?

HOLMES: Very comfortable.

KAYE: We had this special setup today just for you.

HOLMES: Thank you. Delightful.

KAYE: Oh, boy, I'm glad it's Friday.

A business sinking under the recession finds its answer to survival using a very innovative strategy, "The Godfather" approach. We'll explain, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Maybe you've heard the famous saying from "The Godfather": "Take it to the mattresses." Well, the recession has forced many companies across the country to take that sage advice, especially one small furniture company in Thomasville, North Carolina.

Tom Foreman is in North Carolina today to show us what it really means to take it to the mattresses in our series, "Building Up America" -- Tom.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Randi, I think everybody in America knows that this part of North Carolina has produced some of the finest furniture this country knows, and if you've read the news, you also know that the furniture industry has taken a real pounding in recent years. But there are some manufacturers here who are still finding a way to make a living in home furnishings, and they are succeeding.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN (voice-over): Amid the clatter of nail guns and sewing machines, 1,400 mattresses a day roll out of the Carolina Mattress Guild, at least on in a good day. But the owners of this small company, Kathryn and Neal Grigg, have learned how to handle bad days, too.

KATHRYN GRIGG, VICE PRESIDENT, CAROLINA MATTRESS GUILD: We had to. We would -- we lost more half of our -- half or more of our customer base. So, to survive, we had to be very proactive.

FOREMAN: Ten years ago, just after they had opened in the heart of Carolina's furniture belt, a devastating fire struck, wiping out the inventory, their life savings, which they had invested here and leaving a huge question.

NEAL GRIGG, PRESIDENT CAROLINA MATTRESS GUILD: My, god, what are we going to do? How do we overcome this?

FOREMAN: The answer, rebuild fast. Moving into temporary space, they raced to repair. Once again dropping as much money into the dream as they could scrape up.

(on camera): This is all highly specialized equipment.

N. GRIGG: Oh, absolutely.

FOREMAN: And I'm guessing expensive.

N. GRIGG: Very expensive. Very expensive.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Then they had an inspiration. They developed a ground-breaking product based on their experience, a fire- resistant mattress, one of the first of its kind on the market. It took off with customers.

N. GRIGG: It did gain us some new business, so there was a silver lining to that cloud.

FOREMAN: The lessons learned of taking care of the staff, working hard and never giving up have helped them grow from a handful to 100 employees, despite the recession.

Their mantra is simple.

K. GRIGG: You can't retreat. You can't retreat. You have to keep, keep moving forward.

FOREMAN: That does not guarantee success, but even in tough economic times, it helps them all sleep a little easier.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN: It is a competitive, competitive business, but they are staying and they're relying on the craftsmanship developed here for many generations, and they are making a real go of it -- Randi.

KAYE: Thank you, Tom.

Some officers want the right to stop you from videotaping them while they are on duty. Is this a good idea or a violation of your rights? We are going to talk about it next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Time now for CNN Political Update, and CNN deputy political director Paul Steinhauser joins me now from the Political Desk in Washington.

Hi, Paul.

PAUL STEINHAUSER, CNN DEPUTY POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Hi, Randi.

We have new news on somebody who may or may not be running for the White House, we will find out tomorrow. And the person we are talking about is Mike Huckabee, the former governor of Arkansas and remember, he ran for the Republican presidential nomination in 2008.

We just learned that tomorrow night on his show on the FOX News channel show, he will announce whether he is or is not running for a presidential nomination this times as a possible second bid.

But I've got to say, most signs this year pointed to him not running again.

Let's talk about somebody who is running again, and that is Congressman Ron Paul of Texas. He made it official this morning in New Hampshire, a good place to announce if you are running for the White House. This will be his third bid. Remember, 1988 he ran as a Libertarian and ran four years ago.

And check this out, Randi, this is interesting, a most recent poll, a hypothetical between Ron Paul, say he was the Republican nominee, and Barack Obama, of course, the Democratic nominee. Look at that, only seven points separate the two.

KAYE: Really?

STEINHAUSER: Yes. In fact, in our poll, Ron Paul does better in a hypothetical head-to-head against the president than any of the other Republicans.

Stay tuned on that one as well, I guess, Randi.

KAYE: Getting interesting.

STEINHAUSER: Yes.

KAYE: All right, Paul, thank you.

Your next update from "The Best Political Team on Television" is just an hour away.

Well, imagine for a moment you see a policeman arresting someone or making a routine traffic stop, you whip out the video camera and start filming. In one woman's case, that got her in trouble with the law.

Khalia Fitchette was on a city bus in Newark, New Jersey last year when two police officers confronted a man who appeared to be drunk. She took out her camera and started taping. Well, to make a long story short, the officers pulled her off the bus, erased the video on the phone and kept her handcuffed for two hours in the back of the squad car. She was later released, no charges were ever filed, but she is now suing the Newark Police Department.

So that is the "Stream Team" question: Should bystanders be able to videotape police officers while they are on duty?

Let's discuss this with attorney Lisa Bloom and retired Police Sergeant Andy Hill.

First, Andy, to you. What do you think about this battle between police and cameras?

SGT. ANDY HILL (RET.), PHOENIX POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, I think there isn't much case against allowing people to videotape based on, you know, the First and Fourth Amendments, which I'm sure Lisa will speak to.

But basically, police officers have to get used to the fact that everybody has got one and I think they need to put that kind of training into police academies now. As we know with all reality shows, once you have been around a camera for a while, you start to just forget that it is even there. So I think it's a good idea to do that.

And there really is no basis for stopping people, unless they are involved in a crime, from videotaping. It just does not seem to make sense to try to do that.

KAYE: And, Lisa, do you think that the woman can win a lawsuit against the Newark Police Department or anybody else that might decide to sue?

LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Randi. There's no expectation of privacy on a city bus. So anyone, a journalist, a private citizen can take out a camera or cameraphone and start videotaping anything that goes on in the public place, and that includes a police officer making an arrest.

You know, many police departments have video cameras installed on the squad cars and on their motorcycles, and they videotape we ordinary citizens when we are getting a ticket or getting arrested. Well, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

I am shocked that they took this 16-year-old girl, cuffed her and held her for two hours simply because she videotaped. A very bad decision on their part.

KAYE: I wanted to share with you, because we got a statement from the Newark Police Department, which is the department that this girl is suing.

They write, please be advised that the matter is currently under litigation and also being investigated by our Internal Affairs Department. So we want to make sure that you're aware of that.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, the case that really just started the battle between officers and cameras was the taping of the beating of Rodney King back in 1991, I mean, we all remember what came of this.

Andy, do the cameras change the way, do you think, that an officer does his job?

HILL: You know, I think it is very important to recognize the fact that I don't think it changes very much because cameras are a great asset for a police officers. So many departments are using them now on the street, because they can exonerate or prove that an officer handled the situation correctly.

So I think officers are beginning to take the lead in using video to their advantages because most of the time we know officers are doing their job correctly, but if there are accusations, they always need to be investigated, they need to be looked at. And if you will have the videotape, it will either exonerate you or show you did the thing that you weren't supposed to do.

So I think it's a good thing overall.

KAYE: And everyone, really, just about everyone has a camera phone these days, so I mean, do we all have the legal right to film? I'm guessing that we do, Lisa? I mean, what bothers you most about this whole thing, that they put her in a squad car for a couple of hours and never followed up with any charges or that they actually erased the video on the camera?

BLOOM: Well, first of all, yes, we do all have the right to videotape in a public place. You can't sneak up to somebody's house and pull the curtains aside and peer into their windows and tape them there, because we have an expectation of privacy in our home and in similar places.

But out on a bus, out on a street, of course, we have the right to be videotaped and the average American is videotaped over 100 times a day just going to the market or the bank.

It is disturbing that they erased the tape. What did they do, you have to wonder, that was so bad they had to erase a camera of a 16-year-old girl? That just does not look good for them.

KAYE: No, it doesn't.

All right, thank you both, interesting discussion and certainly when h everybody has one of the cameraphones as we said. Have a good weekend, both of you.

BLOOM: Have a great weekend.

HILL: You, too.

KAYE: Well, when you think dangerous jobs, mailman probably isn't at the top of the list, but I have a list that may change your mind. My "XYZ" is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Breaking news into CNN. We are getting word that Moammar Gadhafi just gave a very brief audio message on the state TV in Libya. No confirmation if this was taped or live, but he thanked those who asked about him and his family and praised all Libyan martyrs who died for their country.

Gadhafi condemned the attack on Bab al-Ziyah compound on Thursday. His message to NATO was that he is in a place where they cannot reach him. I am in the hearts of the millions, and even if they kill his body, he said, they will not kill his spirit.

And it is time now for my "XYZ" and some interesting new stats about man's best friend, or is he?

Guess how often dogs attacked postmen and women? It isn't pretty. Last year 5,669 postal employees were attacked in more than 1,400 cities. Houston tops the list. There, 62 dogs took a bite out of mail carriers in 2010. My old hometown, Minneapolis, ranks number seven on the list with 35 attacks.

So I guess that this is where I come clean. Yes, my dog was once guilty of this. My little Jack Russell terrier -- yup, there he is, a picture of him -- he actually lunged at my mailman years ago, bit him as I opened the door so he could hand me a package.

Luckily, we had known the mailman for years and he was forgiving of my little attack dog, my terrier that weighed about 15 pounds. Still amazes me since my dog was actually blind, but boy, he found the target.

Now, you don't have to be a mail carrier in Minneapolis or Houston to be at risk. L.A. had 44 carriers attacked; Louisville, 40. San Antonio, Cleveland, Philly, Denver, Sacramento and Seattle also earned top spots on the list of most dangerous cities for delivering the mail.

Whoever thought there would be such a list?

Dog attacks actually cost the Postal Service, it turns out, nearly $1.2 million last year.

So if you think that your dog has more bark than bite like I did, well, remember that the mailmen may be able to brave rain, sleet and snow, but a dog's teeth, not so much.

CNN NEWSROOM continues now with T.J. Holmes.

T.J. HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: I've got some questions, Randi. Your blind dog attacked a mailman? I heard that right, though, didn't I?

KAYE: You sure did.

HOLMES: OK, they say that the pets take on the personalities of the owners, right?

(LAUGHTER)

KAYE: I am a bit of a bulldog.

HOLMES: OK, all right. Well, see you, Randi. Always good to see you, thank you so much.