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Shuttle's Final Mission; Phone Hacking Scandal Shuts Down Paper; NASA Ending Space Shuttle Program; Cursive Teaching Discontinued; Senator Upset By Debt Negotiation Process

Aired July 07, 2011 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

E.D. HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you.

Hi, everyone. I'm E.D. Hill, in today for Brooke Baldwin, who's at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida and a very busy day of news.

But, first, straight to Brooke. And we're hearing about some possible lightning strikes there. That's got to be of concern. What's happening?

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is most definitely a concern, E.D.

Hello to you, and hello to everyone.

Look, this is not exactly what we call picture-perfect conditions here at Kennedy Space Center. I don't know if you can tell. The rain has been pouring behind me sideways.

In terms of that possible lightning strike, here's what we know. According to the space shuttle launch team, they are evaluating a possible lightning strike, perhaps as close as a third of a mile away from that site you're looking at. That is launch pad 39-A. So they have to look into that to see if possibly the launch pad was affected.

If it was, obviously that would affect the launch time. Thus far, it is still a go tomorrow morning, 11:26 a.m., but this is a huge, huge story. As everyone knows by now, this is a space shuttle we saw the first flight August 12 -- or -- excuse me -- April 12, 1981, and this is the end of an era.

But when you talk to folks down here, E.D., people say this isn't the end, this is the beginning of a new chapter, but the big question remains, what does the next chapter entail? So, coming up live here from Kennedy Space Center over the next couple of hours, I have got some special guests, including Bob Crippen, who was the first of two astronauts to fly up on STS-1 back in April of 1981. We will talk to him about what happened then, what he thinks of this whole 30-year era and his thoughts on what's next, and, also, a man who built the engine of this current rocket, of the current this space shuttle Atlantis, and he has some reservations about sort of the nebulous -- the nebulous outlook for manned spaceflight.

A lot more coming at you. I just heard the rain picking up again, and if we hear anything more about that possible lightning strike near that launch pad, which is just about three miles over my shoulder, we will bring it to you live -- E.D., back into you at Atlanta.

E.D. HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Boy, that is not what they want to hear or see out there. Thank you, Brooke. We will join you again in a few minutes.

Now we have got a scandal that's worthy of tabloid headlines itself. Journalists working for "News of the World," one of the biggest tabloid newspapers in Britain, are accused of hacking the phone voice-mails of everyone from movie stars to politicians, even the royal family.

Well, now the accusations stretch to alleged phone hacking of a murder victim and even the families of British troops killed in Afghanistan and Iraq. Today, that scandal brought down the paper itself.

In a surprising turn, media mogul Rupert Murdoch, owner of the paper, ordered it to shut down. This Sunday will be the last edition. Now, this is the same Rupert Murdoch who owns News Corp., that has "The Wall Street Journal," "New York Post," FOX News Channel and business channels and also the 20th Century Fox movie studio.

We're joined by Richard Quest in London.

So, Richard, were you surprised that the Murdochs decided, OK, close it?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, in a word.

I thought they might suspend editions. I thought they might try and brazen it out. But I think in the last 24 hours, it became clear we had gone from celebrity phone hacking to murdered victim hacking, to bomb victim hacking, to soldiers and dead soldiers hacking. We have now got two investigations, public inquiries, that will be launched, one into the hacking and two into the payments that News Corp. or that the "News of the World" made to the police.

So, faced with this octopus of allegations and a cancer that was just eating away at the group, they took the decision just to cut it off. Now, one other thing. Murdoch is trying to BSkyB, a major British satellite broadcaster. That deal is now teetering, teetering on the edge, and the cynics say here it's to save that that he's lopped off the newspaper.

HILL: And to explain that a bit more, because I guess I'm a little skeptical of anything in Washington and anything to do with business, so when I looked at this, I thought, yes, he's trying to buy BSkyB. That is huge, big business deal for him.

The problem had been that people said he owns and controls too much media already. By shutting this down, he makes it look better, doesn't he?

QUEST: No, no. Well, sort of.

Look, he owns about nearly 30 percent of BSkyB. He was buying the bit he didn't own. And the real issue is, was there going to be too much plurality? Was there going to be enough competition?

Forget all those issues now. They were about to be answered. This is going to hinge on whether News Corp., News International, News Corp., Murdoch, is a fit and proper person to run another major operation in the media. That's what this is all about.

Now, by -- by getting rid of "News of the World," they look and they appear to have been very forceful, very decisive. They have got rid of something. I mean, to be fair to Murdoch, Jim Murdoch Jr., James, he says -- he's described the allegations as inhuman, no place in their company, sullied the good name of the company.

He says wrongdoers turned a good newsroom bad. So, in an interview tonight, he also says, you know, he and his father pledge to sort this mess out.

I mean, the problem is -- and you don't want to necessarily have schadenfreude at this misfortune of one's competitors, but the problem is just take in the United States. Murdoch became a U.S. citizen, so that he could buy assets in the U.S. He gave up his Australian citizenship in doing so.

He has relentlessly cherry-picked top assets in major places. Nothing wrong with that at all, absolutely not. That's the free market, but this one has blown up in his face in the U.K.

HILL: Well, as an American, I think he chose America over Great Britain because it's a wonderful country.

(LAUGHTER)

HILL: Richard Quest, thank you very much in London.

Twenty-six days until a potential default of the U.S. Treasury, and here's another sign about how serious this is becoming. The nation's top elected officials held a meeting today at the White House, and they will meet again on Sunday, yes, working on the weekend. We will tell you more about that in a moment.

First, I want to show you who was there, House Speaker John Boehner, along with fellow Republicans Eric Cantor, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, and Jon Kyl, Democrats, including Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, Dick Durbin, and Steny Hoyer. Once again, they will reconvene Sunday. The president called the talks constructive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What we decided was that staffs, as well as leadership, will be working during the weekend and that I will reconvene congressional leaders here on Sunday, with the expectation that at that point the parties will at least know where each other's bottom lines are, and we'll hopefully be in a position to then start engaging in the hard bargaining that's necessary to get a deal done.

I want to emphasize that nothing is agreed to until everything's agreed to, and the parties are still far apart on a wide range of issues.

But, again, I thought that all the leaders here came in a spirit of compromise, in a spirit of wanting to solve problems on behalf of the American people. Everybody acknowledged that the issue of our debt and our deficits is something that needs to be tackled now. Everybody acknowledged that in order to do that, Democrats and Republicans are going to be required in each chamber -- everybody acknowledged that we have to get this done before the hard deadline of August 2, to make sure that America does not default for the first time on its obligations.

And everybody acknowledged there's going to be pain involved politically on all sides, but our biggest obligation is to make sure that we're doing the right thing by the American people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: So, the president calls the talks constructive. House Speaker Boehner used the word productive, but both sides say no breakthrough.

Here's what appears to have changed, though. President Obama is apparently willing to agree to cuts in Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security as part of a debt reduction deal that is far more sweeping than what was being discussed before, but the price of that deal is higher taxes on the wealthy, and Republicans say they are not doing that. At least that's what they are saying in public.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I have also made clear that we are not going to raise taxes on the American people. We're not going to raise taxes on the very people that we expect to reinvest in our economy and to help grow jobs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: All right. Here's the inside baseball. Apparently over the weekend, Mr. Boehner signaled some give on taxes in a secret meeting with the president, so we will -- we will keep that under our watch, but also keep in mind that any deal between Obama, Boehner -- Obama, Boehner, McConnell -- whoever -- needs to get through Congress, and congressional Democrats are sounding very nervous about potential cuts to Social Security.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D), MARYLAND: -- this morning on Social Security, I do not know what exactly the president is referring to. And I should be clear that congressional Democrats are not going to support something that seeks to balance the budget on the backs of Social Security beneficiaries.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: So that's the concern from Democrats. Republicans worried about the tax increases, and some are ticked off that this deal is being worked out behind closed doors.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R), WISCONSIN: Are we going to have a result, a negotiated settlement dropped in our lap, what, a couple days before, you know, this -- this deadline date? Is that what is going to happen? Is that really how the financial fate of America is going to be decided? I mean, personally, I find that process disgusting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: We will get a few more words from him about that process. That's Senator Ron Johnson, Republican of Wisconsin, and he does not like the closed-door talks about trillions and trillions of dollars. He will be my guest in a short time from now as part of the coverage of the debt talks.

Now, coming up next, I will take you back to the Kennedy Space Center in Florida. Nervous eyes watching that weather, hoping that the sky will clear and they can have a takeoff. Brooke Baldwin is standing by with that. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Welcome back. I'm E.D. Hill at CNN headquarters in Atlanta.

It's T-minus 21 hours and counting down until the last shuttle launch, weather permitting. And right now, NASA is evaluating whether a possible lightning strike near the launch pad could cause problems to the shuttle or any of its ground equipment. Nasty storm is drenching That area today, and that's also hampering the efforts to check for damage.

Brooke Baldwin is at the Kennedy Space Center for that final launch.

How exciting that you get to be there. Now, set the scene for us.

BALDWIN: I tell you what, E.D. Hill. This is a dream assignment for me.

People who watch the show, they know I went to space camp 20 years ago. I always wanted to be an astronaut. So, to be covering the 135th launch of a space shuttle is just really a dream come true.

There are so many stories to tell down here between the one million spectators, you heard me right, a million people the Space Coast tourism bureau anticipating coming down to attend this launch, the crew of four going up in Atlantis, the weather, as you mentioned and that possible lightning strike at the launch pad behind me.

But one part of the story that we have to tell is the 7,000 or so men and women who are going to be or have been laid off because of this 30-year era ending.

I met a couple. A man actually broke down in tears telling me a story. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN (voice-over): Through the decades, Brenda and Gerry Mulberry marked major life milestones with the launches of the space shuttle.

BRENDA MULBERRY, OWNER, SPACE SHIRTS: And we watched the launch of the STS-1 together from the Titan complex when I was 22 years old.

BALDWIN (on camera): A match made in space heaven.

(LAUGHTER)

B. MULBERRY: Yes.

BALDWIN (voice-over): From one of their first dates to Brenda opening up her own T-shirt shop. Space Shirts sits two miles down the road from Kennedy Space Center, and right now her business is booming. But with the launch of the 135th and final space shuttle mission, Gerry is marking a different kind of memory.

GERRY MULBERRY, FORMER NASA EMPLOYEE, ROCKET SCIENTIST: I started in April of '81.

BALDWIN (on camera): Eighty-one, and so you worked from '81 until?

G. MULBERRY: Until April of this year. With the program shutting down, you know, everybody got cut back. And our department got cut back a little earlier than some of the others, so it was time to move on.

BALDWIN (voice-over): Thirty years to the month, Gerry was laid off.

He's one of 7,000 workers at Kennedy Space Center alone who are already jobless or soon will be. It's eerily familiar to the last time this space coast saw manned spaceflight at a standstill. That was after the last Apollo mission in 1975, six years before the launch of the first space shuttle. This time around, Gerry says the job outlook is better.

G. MULBERRY: There's Baer Air, which is going to build a business jet right at Melbourne Airport. They are going to do their final assembly there. So it's a little different now.

BALDWIN: While this area is steeped in space, tourism officials say space tourism makes up just 5 percent of all the tourism here now. Beaches, cruise ships and the visitors center will still bring in the tourists, but that doesn't take the sting out for someone who just lost his dream job.

(on camera): What's worse, the loss of the space shuttle era or the loss of NASA family?

G. MULBERRY: Hmm, good question. I think it really goes together. There's a big tradition out there that you get a picture signed, and, you know, you get that, and that's it. So it does bother you. It's like, when you give your badge in for that last time, it gets to you.

BALDWIN (voice-over): For now, Gerry is helping his wife sell shirts and souvenirs to tourists in town from all around the world. No matter what happens, it will be a bittersweet chapter for a couple who has watched and hoped and loved 134 times, and now they wait for their next mission.

B. MULBERRY: So we're going to keep printing, and he's going to go find another job. And, you know, I mean, I love him to death, but he's a rocket scientist, you know? So -- and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to print T-shirts, so --

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: I love that line. Best of luck to Gerry and Brenda.

Now, as I mentioned in the piece, their first date, one of their first dates was watching STS-1 back in April of '81 take off. That particular space shuttle, there were only two astronauts inside, and I get to speak with one of them. Bob Crippen will be on set with me here in a matter of minutes. I will ask him what it feel like to be sitting inside a shuttle at three g's, lifting off, what it feels like also to be sitting here 30 years later and this program is over, so a couple of questions for him. It's an interview you won't want to miss, Bob Crippen right here live in the newsroom -- E.D.?

HILL: Brooke, I have got one other little tidbit about the folks you just talked to.

I read about when they met. And apparently he walked up to her, I think it was at a bar, and he said, hey there, I'm a rocket scientist.

(LAUGHTER)

HILL: And she said that was all it took, so a very cute couple.

Brooke, thank you very much. We're looking forward to the interview. We will See you in just a couple minutes.

Now, also, you don't want to miss our special coverage of the shuttle's final mission. It begins tomorrow morning at 10:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

Now watch this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her release date has been calculated as July 13, 2011.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: That's right. Casey Anthony will walk free in just six days. Not everyone thinks she deserves it. Up next, we will hear from the prosecutor, a juror and the judge.

Plus, a Mexican man convicted of raping and killing a girl in Texas is set to die in less than four hours. Few question that he's guilty, but President Obama wants it stopped -- why he thinks executing Humberto Garcia could hurt other Americans. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Casey Anthony didn't get out of jail today, but she will be released next Wednesday.

A Florida judge sentenced Anthony to the maximum for lying to authorities, four separate convictions, one year for each. Anthony's attorneys wanted those four convictions reduced to one, but the judge would have none of it, saying all four lies hindered law enforcement's search for Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, ORANGE COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: This search for her went on from July through December, over several months, trying to find Caylee Marie Anthony -- four distinct, separate lies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Well, if you were like me, I thought, OK, four years. How is she getting out next week?

Well, here's how the law works. She's getting out for time already served and behavior. She already got off on the bigger charges involved in the death of her 2-year-old daughter, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Caylee! Caylee! Caylee! Caylee! Caylee!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Those crowds of trial watchers are still outside the Orlando courtroom, and they are not happy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Caylee! She was left in a swamp, nobody there to defend her, and we're out here to say, Caylee, we remember you. We will stand up for you, even when the jury failed you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: So what about the jury? Well, they say the prosecution failed. Listen to what juror Jennifer Ford told ABC.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNIFER FORD, JUROR: There wasn't enough evidence. There wasn't anything strong enough to say exactly -- I don't think anyone in America could tell us exactly how she died. If you put even just the 12 jurors in one room with a piece of paper, write down how Caylee died, nobody knows. We'd all be guessing. We have no idea.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: So she says the burden of proof was not met, but prosecutor Jeff Ashton had this to say on CNN's sister network HLN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF ASHTON, PROSECUTOR: Dr. Garavaglia was appropriately said that, medically, she could not say that the duct tape caused death, because it's a skeleton. You can't say that. Whether a jury could conclude it from reasoning the evidence is a different matter.

I guess that was the biggest factor. I mean, I -- you know, I just -- you know, you become involved in a case and you believe in it, and -- and I really would love for someone to tell me how that duct tape got there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Another juror is now speaking out. Juror number two wants to remain anonymous, but told to "The St. Petersburg Times." I'm quoting. "Everybody agreed that if we were going on feelings and emotions, she was done. I just swear to God I wish we had more evidence to put her away. I truly do. But it wasn't there" -- end of the quote.

And now this for Casey Anthony. Since it was her lies that created that huge investigation into Caylee's disappearance, the state is saying she should foot the bill for the investigation, amount to be determined later.

And you don't want to miss this, a special Nancy Grace show called "Justice for Caylee," Saturday night 9:00 Eastern on our sister network HLN.

About three-and-a-half-hours and counting, that is how much longer that man, a convicted rapist and murderer, has to live. Will Texas Governor Rick Perry stop the execution? President Obama says he needs to, and by doing that, saving a killer, the president said other Americans will benefit. CNN's Jill Dougherty is on this story -- an update up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: A convicted murderer scheduled to be executed in Texas within hours is at the center of an international, legal and diplomatic dispute.

Now, the man is a Mexican, and while few deny he's guilty, when he was arrested, and even during his trial, he was never told he had the right to contact the Mexican Embassy, which might have provided more legal aid. And that right is guaranteed under a binding international treaty.

Texas Governor Rick Perry is refusing to stop the execution set for tonight at 6:00 Central time. Now, the president and the secretary of state say he must, because, if not, they fear Americans may suffer.

Jill Dougherty is following the story.

So, Jill, can you explain their concerns, the broader ones?

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, E.D., really, it's a complicated case, but what it boils down to is what you were alluding to right at the end of that, which is they -- the Department of State, the administration would argue that if this man -- and he is obviously guilty, but if he is executed without having had the ability early on to consult with a representative from his embassy, which is required according to an international treaty that the United States signed, then an American citizen traveling abroad might, if they were arrested for something, might end up in the same circumstance.

That other country might say, hey, you didn't recognize the rights of our citizens. Therefore, we don't have to recognize the rights of your citizens, so it's really -- that's the argument from the government.

HILL: And there have been cases where Americans have been arrested overseas, and the government clearly thinks that this is something that, you know, could be a tit for tat. If they don't honor this, they will have trouble down the road.

DOUGHERTY: Exactly. And, you know, to make this a little even more complicated, right now, at this very moment, the Supreme Court has to decide this, because there's an appeal from the lawyers for Mr. Leal, and they have to decide whether they will grant a stay of execution.

They will rule after the governor decides. They have to -- the court has to decide stay of execution, or would they decide that broader issue, which really gets into the question of, does a state have to accept what the president says, which is, you really do have to carry out this international treaty, you have to enforce it, it's part of what the United States is doing as a country? So it's complicated, but the time is ticking away, and it may be, you know, possibly, that this man may be executed, but the principle would go on. The court might ultimately rule and the Congress might pass a law.

HILL: All right.

DOUGHERTY: There are a lot of possibilities --

HILL: We will watch.

DOUGHERTY: -- but not too much time left for this man.

HILL: That's right.

Jill Dougherty, thank you very much.

Now, watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- launch of America's first space shuttle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first stage, you know, eight and a half minutes while you're under thrust goes back so fast. And on my first flight my eyes were like saucers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: As NASA counts down to the end of the space shuttle era, Brooke Baldwin talks to the pilot of the very first space shuttle in 1981. That's coming up next.

Plus, you remember this. I do, too. You practiced over and over, tracing those letters to learn cursive. Now one state says that's a waste of time. They are kicking it out of the curriculum. So is it still an important skill to learn? We'll talk about that coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Welcome back. I'm E.D. hill at CNN headquarters in Atlanta. Excitement is building as NASA gets ready to end an era with the last shuttle flight, weather permitting, and that is a big if. Right now NASA is evaluating whether lightning hit near the launch pad a short time ago. They want to determine if it did, and it could possibly cause some problems for the shuttle and ground equipment. So they've got to ascertain whether or not it did hit.

Our Brooke Baldwin is at the Kennedy space center where Atlantis is set to lift off tomorrow morning, and she has a very special guest with her, former astronaut Robert "Bob" Crippen. Brooke?

BALDWIN: Yes, E.D., this is so exciting. I have Bob Crippen sitting to my left. Folks, if you don't know who this man is, let me tell you, this guy along with John Young, they were the first two astronauts ever to go up in the space shuttle. It was April 12th, 1981. In fact I read the current commander of the Atlantis Chris Ferguson said he was in high school watching the launch. How does that make you feel? This guy was in high school when --

ROBERT "BOB" CRIPPEN, FORMER NASA ASTRONAUT: It makes me feel a little old.

(LAUGHTER)

CRIPPEN: But it was an exciting time, and I'm glad we have people like Chris picking up the pole and carrying it on.

BALDWIN: Yes, indeed he is, hopefully tomorrow morning. But do I want to ask you. Sitting here, you helped launch this entire program 30 years ago. You knew this day would come, the end of the space shuttle era would arrive, but mixed emotions?

CRIPPEN: Well, at that time, of course, I wasn't focusing on the end. I was focusing on the beginning.

BALDWIN: The beginning. But sitting here now?

CRIPPEN: Sitting here now it's a bittersweet time for me. I'm really proud of what the shuttle has accomplished. We did have two terrible tragedies. But I believe when history looks back on it in its totality they will say, hey, that was a great vehicle. The fact that we're standing it down now without the capability to put up our people ourselves and having depend on other countries to do that really does concern me.

BALDWIN: I want to talk about your concerns in a minute, but I want to take you back to 1981. And doing my reading about this particular launch I know it was the first launch. Normally NASA, they will put some space shuttle -- or not shuttles, but space vehicles up there and test it, right? You were the test flight.

CRIPPEN: Right.

BALDWIN: You were the guinea pigs, if you will, of the first space shuttle. Were you nervous knowing that at all, or just totally excited?

CRIPPEN: I was totally excited. John and I had worked on that vehicle from its inception. We knew it very well. We knew the people that had built it, and John and I spent a lot of time talking and touching the technicians. We had confidence in it. You know, we know that there was a possibility of a potential problem, but we thought we could get it back down on the ground safely. We did talk about whether we should fly it unmanned. It would have been difficult to do, and John and I both thought, hey, we have a higher chance of success if we're on board. And management agreed with that.

BALDWIN: And it was successful, thank goodness.

CRIPPEN: It was. BALDWIN: Something I thought interesting which could be trivia for someone over dinner tonight is that the reason why there were only two of you guys on the shuttle was because you had ejection seats. Bob Crippen, did you think you'd be ejecting out of the space shuttle?

(LAUGHTER)

CRIPPEN: Well, they were there in case they were needed. Truthfully they were for of a placebo from my standpoint from an asset, because if you lock at the tail of the solid rocket fire that's coming out of there, if you ejected during ascent, you would have gone through that and been very crispy.

(LAUGHTER)

CRIPPEN: However, if we had run into a problem on entry, short on capability to get to the runway or something, they could have saved us from that. But thank goodness that didn't happen. We had the ejection seats on the first four flights.

BALDWIN: There are so many people out there, including myself, who grew up wanting to be, yearning to be an astronaut. And if you can just put me in your position, you know, during the launch. I know you're pulling three G's. What does that physically feel like? Do you feel it in your chest?

CRIPPEN: Well, John and I were both trained naval aviators, pulled a lot of G's in our life, so more like six or seven many times, so three G's really isn't that much.

However, when the solid rockets light off, you know you're headed someplace. You hope it's in the right direction. Being a Navy pilot, it's a little bit like a catapult shot coming off an aircraft carrier. There's a lot of shaking going on when the solids are there. It's very noisy. But two minutes you get rid of the solids and it's very quiet. It's as calm and you and I sitting here.

But the G-load goes back up again to three G's until you reach orbit. It's an exciting ride.

BALDWIN: I tried pulling 3.2 the other day, didn't make it. Three I'm good, 3.2, not so good.

Looking ahead, though, we're all sort of waiting. Charlie Bolden NASA's chief said last week, look, it's not a matter of if but when we put men and women on the moon, back on the moon, and Mars and then asteroids. What about the when? When do you think -- what's the timeline? When should we be going back up?

CRIPPEN: Well, I want to say let's go beyond earth orbit, the moon, asteroids, Mars eventually, and I believe we ought to be focused on doing that.

Truthfully where we're at now, and I'll tell Charlie this, it's not very clear to me. We're talking about building a capsule similar to what we used in Apollo, and there's some talk about a heavy lift launch vehicle that would allow us to get beyond low earth orbit, but it's not very definitive. I believe we need a very definite goal in order to have the program move forward. It can only move forward at the rate at which we fund it, though.

BALDWIN: So you think funding is the big issue?

CRIPPEN: Funding is the big issue, and the desire to do it.

BALDWIN: The desire.

What about looking ahead to tomorrow? We heard about possible -- they are evaluating possibly this lightning strike a third of a mile from 39A over our shoulder at launch pad. It's supposed to, fingers crossed, 11:26 tomorrow morning, and, you know, that question is sort of pervasive through all the conversations out here.

Do you think it's going to happen? When do you think it will happen? Do you have any intel, Mr. Crippen? Do we know? Do we know when it will go?

CRIPPEN: Well, as far as the lightning strike, I do know they have lots of instrumentation out at the pad. They can go look at that to see whether they think the vehicle needs to go through some more testing to make sure it didn't impact it.

The big if in my opinion is the weather. There's a high probability of rain. You can't fly the shuttle through rain. Some probability of lightning. Don't want to get involved with that.

But I've seen the weather forecast to be a lot worse and it all of a sudden clears and we launch. So the weather is going to be whatever the weather is going to be.

BALDWIN: Says a man who was delayed 30 years ago three years.

CRIPPEN: Three years. Not from weather but from technical issues, though.

BALDWIN: Three years. But you got up, and the Atlantis will eventually get up as well, sir.

CRIPPEN: Absolutely.

BALDWIN: Bob Crippen, what a pleasure, seriously. Such a pleasure to meet you.

CRIPPEN: It was a pleasure.

BALDWIN: And E.D., back into you.

HILL: That was fascinating. Thank you, Brooke. And we're going to check back in with Brooke at the top of the hour.

Now our special coverage of the shuttle's final mission begins tomorrow morning at 10:00 eastern, so you can watch that very historic event right here on CNN. Now you think you're fed up with Washington? Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R), WISCONSIN: What does the financial future of America rest on? Some secret talks? Is that really how the financial fate of America is going to be decided? I mean, personally I find that process disgusting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Well, strong words today from Republican Senator Ron Johnson as the budget battle continues. Senator Johnson joins me next.

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HILL: Well, I want to turn now to the debt reduction talks and the potential of the default by the United States treasury. High- level talks at the White House today, President Obama and congressional leaders from both parties. Afterwards the president said the meeting was constructive and that they will meet again on Sunday.

Joining us now from Washington is Senator Ron Johnson, Republican of Wisconsin. And yes, we all heard you right before this, and you said those closed-door meetings are disgusting. Why?

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R), WISCONSIN: Well, first of all, the fact that this president has not got engaged in the process until just a couple of weeks ago is very disappointing. Let's face it -- the president and the Senate Democrats have backed America up against a wall.

It shouldn't have been that way. We should have had a very orderly process where we were looking at a serious proposal months ago. And now we've got, what, 30 days before the hard deadline that Treasury Secretary Geithner has laid out for us, and now we're finally kind of getting serious about this?

The fact of the matter is I ran because we are bankrupting America. And I want to be involved in this process, and I'm concerned that there's going to be these -- like you say, these secret negotiations behind closed doors, far from the view of the American public, and all of a sudden that result is going to be dumped in our laps. We'll have no time to take a look at it.

And E.D., we're talking about a $3.7 trillion a year budget. That takes a little bit of time to go through. I'm an accountant, and you don't do that overnight. So, no, it is disgusting.

HILL: I've been covering politics for a long time, and I get the sense -- I get this sense that in the past leadership always assumed whatever they decided to do, the deals they make, everybody else will back them up, go along with them. Is that necessarily the case there, or are they making a big assumption that if you get these guys in the room and you've got, from your side you've got McConnell and Kyl and Cantor, when they walk out and say, OK, this is the deal, will everyone naturally say, OK, sounds good to me?

JOHNSON: First of all, I want to defend our leadership. We've actually been putting forward positive proposals. The House passed a budget. It's the Senate leadership, the Democrats in the Senate and this administration that has not come to the table in good faith, not laid any kind of plan on the table.

So, again, there's a definite difference here. Republicans want to solve the problem. We've been doing this in good faith. I don't believe the Democrats have been operating in good faith.

HILL: But, I mean, there's a basic difference of opinion on how you solve problems. I think everybody, both sides want to solve the problem, but -- but Democrats feel that you -- you do that by increasing revenues, and that you can call it a tax increase or revenue. There is some sort of new word that they are using for it, enhanced revenues perhaps. And Republicans think, no, you don't do that. You give more stimulation to -- to businesses, small businesses, people that can hire. So is there really any center ground to come to?

JOHNSON: Well, first of all, I've always thought this was a two- step process. But I realize the Democrats always want to raise taxes. That's their solution. Republicans want to grow the economy. We want to put people back to work. We want to get the government off the backs of small businesses so they can actually hire.

But, you know, to me the first thing we have to do, the first step is to instill and enact a very strong fiscal discipline. That's why, you know, we came out and proposed this cut, cap, and balance approach. It's a pretty reasonable. You cut baseline spending. You statutorily put caps in place.

But we realize Congress will eventually weasel out of the caps. So the center piece of this thing is a constitutional amendment to limit the size of government, produce a balanced budget. And we just introduced a piece of legislation, and 21 Senate Democrats and more sponsors over the weekend, that basically said we're willing to increase the debt ceiling as long as we fix the problem. And fixing the problem is sending a constitutional amendment to the states. Let's let the people decide. It's a very reasonable approach.

HILL: It's a two-step process you're talking about.

JOHNSON: Yes.

HILL: A lot of folks I've discussed this with are saying that, that balanced budget amendment could be the key to them agreeing to other things. Senator Johnson --

JOHNSON: Absolutely.

HILL: -- appreciate you spending time with us. Thank you.

JOHNSON: Thanks for having me on, E.D.

HILL: All right, third grade will never be the same again. Something we all agonized and practiced over and over is obsolete. Indiana schools say cursive writing, learning to sign your own signature, is a waste of time. Why? We'll find out next.

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HILL: My mom's always complaining that no one writes thank-you notes anymore. The thank-you note is dead. Well, if you are wondering if that's true, look no further than this. Indiana is the latest state saying kids don't need to learn cursive writing. Instead, typing will be taught. That's enough. So is that a good thing or not?

For answers we bring in Sam Chaltain. He's an educator, a writer, and an organizational change consultant. And it's the "change" part of us that's very interesting. So Sam, thanks for being with us.

SAM CHALTAIN, EDUCATOR/ORGANIZATIONAL CHANGE CONSULTANT: Thanks for having me.

HILL: Is getting rid of teaching cursive needed? Or do the kids miss out on something by not having that skill?

CHALTAIN: It's a very interesting issue. In a way I would characterize it as both a tiny and a gigantic issue of significance. And here's what I mean by that. It's tiny because on one level it's clear that cursive is less relevant and useful I think than it was a generation ago, that we're moving toward greater digital use and technology all the time. And we obviously have a lot bigger fish to fry when it comes to how to improve or schools.

It's gigantic precisely because I think of the shift that it signifies. If you think of our society, there are no more entrenched symbols of what is and what has been than symbols we associate with schooling. And that relates to the teacher up front with the kids in rows to learning to teach cursive in third grade.

The problem is we're so attached to the symbols, even sometimes symbols that didn't even serve us well, it becomes so much harder to start having the conversations we need to have, which is less about what school is or has been and more about what schooling in the future ought to be, in which case the use of cursive is a relatively trivial matter.

HILL: When I looked at this, I thought, OK, well, if you've got to get rid of something, why wouldn't it be printing? Cursive is much faster. It's much faster to write in cursive. So if you have to drop something because you want to spend time teaching typing, why wouldn't you teach cursive and drop printing?

CHALTAIN: Well, it's funny. First of all, it's clear that this issue touches a nerve. I kind of let folks know through Facebook and Twitter that I was going to be talking about this, and I don't think I've had more Facebook comments on any issue.

And a friend of mine who's an educator made a good point which I think is the best argument for continuing to use cursive, which is that first of all when kids get is in second grade, they're very excited about it. It feels like a grownup skill. It's very important for small motor coordination. And by fourth or fifth grade they're likely to revert to print anyway. So there's a developmental argument that can be made for keeping it.

But again, in the larger issue, whether or not we teach kids cursive is of far less significance than how we shake off the old cultural assumptions about what schooling is and start to let go of certain things that may be extremely familiar but may not be as useful going forward so that we can make rooms for new ideas, new ways of thinking about the school day, new ways of thinking about how to engage kids in learning that can bring us closer to what schooling ought to be going forward.

HILL: You know, when I look at cursive, like someone's signature, it just seems to be kind of a symbol of who they are. You see some people do those loopy, loopy things on the end of their signature, or they've got a very rushed signature, or it's perfect. And it just seems to be very personal. So without that signature -- and plus, you know, you sign it on everything -- your driver's license, mortgages, any kind of legal document. They don't say print out your name. They say sign your name, signature.

CHALTAIN: Well, and clearly the need to both communicate the old-fashioned way with pen and paper and the need to express one's self and kind of carve out one's own identity through that type of expression, that's not going anywhere. I mean, I don't think we're going to a point where it will no longer be relevant.

The question is, how relevant does it remain? I mean now, for example, there are contracts that can be done entirely over e-mail without a signature. It's not long, I think, before we start to have this conversation on CNN about how could we possibly get rid of paper currency.

But these are the types of tectonic shifts that we are all in the midst of. We are in the midst of a changeover from industrial age to democratic age, and that's going to bring with it some unfamiliarity.

HILL: We've got to go. Sam Chaltain, thank you very much, appreciate it.

CHALTAIN: OK, thank you, E.D.

HILL: Coming up, several liberal House Democrats are furious at the president. They say don't lay a finger on Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. So how do you tackle the budget deficit? I'll speak to one of those Democrats coming up.

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HILL: Welcome back. Candy Crowley joins us now with the very latest from the CNN Political Ticker. Candy?

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, E.D. Just a little reality check here. We all heard the president a couple of hours ago talk about how he was impressed with the general atmosphere of the debt ceiling meetings today, thought it was constructive, et cetera, et cetera.

So just to put the brake on any high hopes at this point, Jay Carney is also saying, look, there was no specific breakthrough here today.

Also on our Ticker, you will find the story of John Boehner, the speaker, and his assessment. He told his caucus he thinks we'll know in the next couple days whether a deal is even possible. And he gives it a 50/50 percent chance.

So while it sounds good and they are talking, and that's always a good sign, the fact of the matter is that neither side in this, if you consider the sides to be Speaker Boehner and the White House, sound all that optimistic that they'll get anything done any time soon.

And finally, just to go on the 2012 campaign trail for a minute, a top adviser to Tim Pawlenty, who of course is a 2012 Republican candidate, is apologizing for suggesting that Michele Bachmann has sex appeal on her side. Vin Webber, I will say, a lot of us know him here, also said when asked about Bachmann as a candidate said she has hometown appeal because of course she is from Iowa. She's not ideological appeal, she is a conservative. And he said, "And I hate to say it, but she's got a little sex appeal, too."

Since that time Webber has thought better of that comment and said he apologizes. He's been a supporter, was a supporter of Bachmann when she ran for Congress, and that he wasn't speaking for the candidate, probably the most important thing he said.

But nonetheless I think we are still kind of walking through untested grounds certainly when it comes to female candidates. There always seems to be something like this that comes up that a male has to take back at some point. This is the first one, I think, of the season.

HILL: A lot of egg shells.

Candy Crowley, thank you very much.

CROWLEY: Thanks.