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Arizona State Senator Points Gun at Reporter; Highest Army for Army Ranger

Aired July 12, 2011 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: And we want to take you back to these live pictures. In just a few minutes, President Obama will bestow the nation's highest military honor on an Army Ranger who saved his comrades from an enemy grenade. We will bring you that ceremony live, right here on CNN, as soon as it happening.

The honoree is Sergeant First Class Leroy Arthur Petry. And he is the second living recipient -- only the second living recipient of the Medal of Honor from the Iraq or Afghan Wars. Sergeant Petry's heroism on an Afghan battlefield cost him his right hand.

CNN's Barbara Starr joining me now from the Pentagon.

Barbara, tell us what happened that day. It was May, 2008, but walk us through it.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Randi, this was in eastern Afghanistan, when Sergeant Petry's unit, the 75th Ranger Regiment, went into a compound to conduct a very rare daylight raid. Usually these types of things in high threat areas, where they know they're going to encounter opposition, happen at night.

They went in, in the daytime, and they entered a compound area and came under heavy fire. The only place they could find to take cover was in a chicken coop.

So, Sergeant Petry and a couple of his Army buddies went in there under fire. Petry gets wounded, others are wounded. And still, the fire keeps coming.

And the insurgents tossed a grenade into the area. Sergeant Petry, already wounded, picks up the grenade to save his buddies and tosses it back. It exploded in his hand, causing catastrophic amputation of his right hand.

But people who were there say that they feel they owed their lives to him. This is why the Medal of Honor is awarded for what the military calls conspicuous gallantry and action above and beyond the call of duty. That's what Sergeant Petry did that day.

In just about 15 minutes from now, as we look at the clock, he will step into that White House ceremony with the president of the United States and really step into a page of history -- Randi. KAYE: And how will this ceremony go? What will happen here?

STARR: Well, typically, what happens is the sergeant would stand there, President Obama will make remarks, talking about him, his family, his wife, his four children, perhaps, and what happened that day. And then the official citation will be read.

But, you know, when you say what typically happened, that's really it. There's only been two of these for living troops who have survived their battles to be awarded the Medal of Honor from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

There have been a number of others, but it's been parents, widows who have stood up there, because in so many of these cases, the soldier, the Marine dies in action because of what has taken place, because this really is the highest award under very severe combat circumstances. So it is only this young man, about 32 years old.

And a few months ago you'll remember Sergeant Sal Giunta also stood next to the president of the United States in this very same room, also awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions in Afghanistan. But the reason they call this history is it's only happened twice before. Both of these young men being able to live to tell about what happened to them -- Randi.

KAYE: We're certainly looking forward to that ceremony. And once again, Barbara, thank you very much.

STARR: Sure.

KAYE: But we should mention, we will bring it to you live, right here, in just a few minutes.

And before we move on though, I want you to see the medal that Sergeant Petry will actually be receiving. The current design of the Army Medal of Honor dates back to 1904. There's also a Navy Medal of Honor -- that is the oldest one, actually -- and an Air Force Medal of Honor.

The face on the Army medal is Minerva, the Roman goddess of wisdom and war. The oak clusters that you can see on the five points of the star, well, they actually symbolize strength. The laurel wreath represents victory.

Again, today's ceremony is due to start at about 2:15 Eastern Time, which is really just minutes from now. And we will bring it to you live, right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Meanwhile, later this afternoon, President Obama will sit down again with leaders of Congress in search of a deficit-cutting deal that would clear the way for a hike in the U.S. debt ceiling. You've probably heard that the U.S. risks its first ever default if the ceiling isn't raised by August 2nd, and you may have wondered, well, what does that mean?

Wonder no longer. Our "Sound Effect" is the bluntest warning yet of the consequences of failing to agree on spending cuts and tax reforms, and it comes from the president himself in an interview with CBS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell the folks at home that no matter what happens, the Social Security checks are going to go out on August the 3rd? There are about $20 billion worth of Social Security checks that have to go out the day after the government is supposedly going to go into default.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, this is not just a matter of Social Security checks. These are veterans checks, these are folks on disability, and their checks. There are about 70 million checks that go out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you guarantee as president those checks will go out on August the 3rd?

OBAMA: I cannot guarantee that those checks go out on August 3rd if we haven't resolved this issue, because there may simply not be the money in the coffers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: The primary hang-up remains Republicans' refusal to consider any kind of tax increase.

New amazing details on events that resulted in the death of Osama bin Laden. According to Britain's "Guardian" newspaper, the CIA hatched a fake vaccination drive to gain DNA from Bin Laden's family. A Pakistani security official tells CNN that the Pakistani doctor involved in the plot has been detained for cooperating with the CIA. The vaccination drive took place in Abbottabad, the city where U.S. security forces killed Bin Laden back in May.

"The Guardian" says the CIA hoped that any DNA gathered could help prove that Bin Laden was holed up in the compound where he was killed. Well, no word on whether DNA evidence actually played any role in finding Bin Laden.

In Afghanistan, the powerful half-brother of Afghan President Hamid Karzai was assassinated today at his home in the southern city of Kandahar. Officials say Ahmed Wali Karzai was killed by a trusted guard. The suspect was then killed by other guards. The Taliban say the shooter was working for them.

Ahmed Wali Karzai was accused by the U.S. and some local Afghans of being involved in the drug trade and some other legal activities. President Karzai spoke to reporters about two hours after the shooting, saying only that, "This is the life of the Afghan people. This sorrow is in every Afghan home."

The latest now on the hacking scandal in Britain involving newspapers owned by Rupert Murdoch, "CNN In-Depth" story. Murdoch shut down one of his tabloids, the "News of the World," for hacking into the voicemails of a murdered teen and victims of the 2005 terror attack in London. There are new allegations now being leveled against at least one of his other newspapers, and Murdoch and his son have both been told to appear before lawmakers at a hearing next week.

Also, former prime minister Gordon Brown accused Murdoch's newspaper group of illegally obtaining private information about him.

Up next, an Arizona lawmaker accused of pointing a gun right at a reporter's chest. Now that reporter is speaking out. That's coming up next.

But first, you are looking live once again at the White House as we wait for that Medal of Honor ceremony to begin just minutes away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: We want to take you back now to this live picture as we wait for the Medal of Honor to be handed to the Army Ranger who is expected to receive that today. He had lost his right hand. We're talking about Sergeant First Class Leroy Arthur Petry.

He will be only the second living recipient of the Medal of Honor from the Iraq and Afghan Wars. The president will give him that honor today, and we will bring it to you live. It should get under way here in just a couple of minutes, and we'll have it for you as soon as it does.

An Arizona lawmaker is under fire today after pointing a gun at a reporter. That reporter, Arizona Republic's Richard Ruelas, says Republican state senator Lori Klein pulled out a raspberry pink .380 Ruger from her purse, then pointed it at his chest. And yes, it was raspberry pink, they say.

Some reports say the gun was loaded at the time, but she denies that. It happened last month inside the Arizona Capitol building during an interview about a story about the state's history with guns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD RUELAS, REPORTER, "ARIZONA REPUBLIC": She showed us the gun, and I looked down and saw a red dot on my chest. It was there for a few seconds, and it was gone. A part of me did think she must know what she's doing. She wouldn't be doing this if it was a reckless thing to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: Klein, a fierce gun rights advocate, denies pointing the gun directly at Ruelas. Instead, she says he walked in front of it.

In a public statement, Klein says, "The photographer asked me to show him the laser sight, and I did so, turning it on and shining it on the wall in front of me. The reporter came and sat down on the sofa in front of me, placing himself in the line of the laser sight."

But Ruelas says that is not how it happened. He said he stayed in the same spot for the entire interview. He also says he has the audio recording of the interview where Klein admits to pointing the gun at him, even laughing that the gun had no safety on it.

Listen to this.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LORI KLEIN, ARIZONA STATE Senator: A friend of mine said it looks like a water pistol. I'm like, yes, wait until you see the laser pointer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It has a laser on it?

KLEIN: Yes. I showed it to you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't see the laser.

KLEIN: I pointed it at him.

RUELAS: She pointed it at me.

(LAUGHTER)

RUELAS: With the safety on you pointed it at me.

KLEIN: No, there is no safety on it. I just didn't have my hand on the trigger.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KAYE: Klein accused an uproar in January after taking a loaded gun into the state capitol just two days after the Gabrielle Giffords shooting. Local lawmakers and gun activists are blasting the incident, saying the senator acted irresponsibly.

Much of the South hit with record-high temperatures, and it doesn't seem to be cooling down today wither. We will check the highs for you next.

And once again, a reminder that this Medal of Honor ceremony for Army Ranger Petry will take place here in just a few minutes, live right here on CNN. He will be honored for his brave actions dating back to May 26, 2008.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

KAYE: First, we want to get you back to the White House where that Medal of Honor ceremony is taking place.

Let's listen in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and Gentlemen, the vice president of the United States.

Ladies and Gentlemen, the president of the United States, accompanied by Medal of Honor recipient Sergeant First Class Leroy Petry.

(MUSIC)

CHAPLAIN DONALD RUTHERFORD, U.S. ARMY: Let us pray.

Almighty and ever living God, you have given us this good land and its founding truths (ph) for our American heritage. We ask your presence as we gather to recognize a man who has gone above and beyond the call of duty in defense of that heritage.

Near providence (ph), Sergeant First Class Leroy Petry's valor and sacrifice saved the lives of his men and fellow Rangers on a trying day in Afghanistan. By your grace, we know that he continues to live today according to those same values.

Honor such heroes who have woven the tapestry of this great nation. Pray that you may enable each of us as Americans to likewise live lives of valor and sacrifice every day to continue weaving the tapestry of America.

We celebrate with Sergeant First Class Petry's wife, mother, father, grandparents, his brothers and his children. Let's remember his grandfather Leo celebrates with us today in a very special way.

We're grateful for all the people and events you have used to mold this man who stands before us this day. We're grateful, too, for the Rangers, our soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines and Coast Guardsman who have given their lives in this long conflict.

Give your grace and strength to their families and friends, as they live with the loss of their loved ones and comrades. And now may your presence be with us in this hour.

May your guiding grace be upon our national leadership. Grant all in our military, especially those who serve today in harm's way, the strength and the wisdom that comes only from you. May you be honored in every endeavor to which you call America and her citizens. And finally, may your favor be upon Sergeant First Class Petry and his family.

President Calvin Coolidge once wrote, "The nation that forgets its defenders itself will be forgotten, and that we as a nation hold him and those like him who have given so much in our common defense unforgotten."

This comes before you, and we pray in your holy name.

Amen.

OBAMA: Thank you, Chaplain Rutherford.

Please be seated. Good afternoon, everyone. And welcome to the White House as we present our nation's highest military decoration, the Medal of Honor, to an extraordinary American soldier, Sergeant First Class Leroy Petry.

This is a historic occasion. Last fall, I was privileged to present the Medal of Honor to Staff Sergeant Salvatore Giunta for his heroism in Afghanistan. And Sal joins us this afternoon.

Where's Sal?

Good to see you.

So, today is only the second time during the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, indeed only the second time since Vietnam, that a recipient of the Medal of Honor from an ongoing conflict has been able to accept this medal in person. And having just spent some time with Leroy, his lovely wife, Ashley (ph), their wonderful children in the Oval Office, then having a chance to see the entire Petry family here, I have to say this could not be happening to a nicer guy or a more inspiring family.

Leroy, the Medal of Honor reflects the deepest gratitude of our entire nation. So we're joined by members of Congress, Vice President Biden, leaders from across my administration, including Deputy Secretary of Defense Bill Lynn, and leaders from across our armed forces, including the Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Jim "Hoss" Cartwright, Army Secretary John McHugh, and Army Chief of Staff General Marty Dempsey.

We're honored to welcome more than 100 of Leroy's family and friends, many from his home state of New Mexico, as well as his fellow Rangers from the legendary Delta Company, 2nd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment. And as always, we are humbled by the members of the Medal of Honor society.

Today we honor a singular act of gallantry. Yet, as we near the 10th anniversary of the attacks that thrust our nation into war, this is also an occasion to pay tribute to a soldier and a generation that has borne the burden of our security during a hard decade of sacrifice.

I want to take you back to the circumstances that led to this day.

It's May 26, 2008, in the remote east of Afghanistan near the mountainous border of Pakistan. Helicopters carrying dozens of elite Army Rangers race over the rugged landscape. Their target is an insurgent compound. The mission is high risk.

It's broad daylight. The insurgents are heavily armed, but it's considered a risk worth taking because intelligence indicates that a top al Qaeda commander is in that compound.

Soon, the helicopters touchdown, and our Rangers immediately come under fire. Within minutes, Leroy, then a staff sergeant, and another soldier are pushing ahead into a courtyard surrounded by high mud walls. And that's when the enemy opens up with their AK-47s.

Leroy is hit in both legs. He's bleeding badly, but he summons the strength to lead the other Ranger to cover behind a chicken coop.

He radios for support. He hurls a grenade at the enemy, giving cover to a third Ranger who rushes to their aid.

An enemy grenade explodes nearby, wounding Leroy's two comrades. And then a second grenade lands. This time, only a few feet away.

Now, every human impulse would tell someone to turn away. Every soldier is trained to seek cover. That's what Sergeant Leroy Petry could have done.

Instead, this wounded Ranger, this 28-year-old man with his whole life ahead of him, this husband and father of four, did something extraordinary. He lunged forward toward the live grenade. He picked it up. He cocked his arm to throw it back.

Now, what compels such courage? What leads a person to risk everything so that others might live?

For answers, we don't need to look far. The roots of Leroy's valor are all around us. We see it in the sense of duty instilled by his family, who joins us today, his father, Larry, his mother, Lorella (ph), and his four brothers. Growing up, the walls of their home were hung with pictures of grandfathers and uncles in uniform, leading a young Leroy to believe, that's my calling, too.

We see it in the compassion of a high school student who overcame his own struggles to mentor younger kids to give them a chance. We see it in the loyalty of an Army Ranger who lives by a creed, "Never shall I fail my comrades," or as Leroy puts it, "These are my brothers, family, just like my wife and kids. And you protect the ones you love."

And that's what he did that day when he picked up that grenade and threw it back just as it exploded. With that selfless act, Leroy saved his two Ranger brothers, and they are with us today.

This valor came with a price. The force of the blast took Leroy's right hand. Shrapnel riddled his body. Said one of his teammates, "I had never seen someone hurt so bad."

So even his fellow Rangers were amazed at what Leroy did next. Despite his grievous wounds, he remained calm. He actually put on his own tourniquet and he continued to lead, directing his team, giving orders, even telling the medics how to treat his wounds.

When the fight was won, as he lay in a stretcher being loaded onto a helicopter, one of his teammates came up to shake the hand that Leroy had left. "That was the first time I shook the hand of someone who I considered to be a true American hero," that Ranger said. Leroy Petry showed that true heroes still exist and that they're closer than you think. That Ranger's right. Our heroes are all around us. They're the millions of Americans in uniform who have served these past 10 years, many like Leroy, deploying tour after tour, year after year.

On the morning of 9/11, Leroy was training to be a Ranger, and as his instructor got the terrible news, they told Leroy and his class, keep training. You might be going to war. Within months, Leroy was in Afghanistan for the first of seven deployments since 9/11.

Leroy speaks proudly of the progress our troops have made: Afghan communities now free from the terror of the Taliban and Afghan forces that are taking more responsibility for their security. And he carries with him the memories of Americans who have made the ultimate sacrifice to make this progress possible.

Earlier in the Oval Office, Leroy gave me the extraordinary privilege of showing me the small plaque that is bolted to his prosthetic arm. On it are the names of the fallen rangers from the 75th Regiment. They are quite literally part of him, just as they will always be part of America.

One of those names is of the ranger who did not come back from the raid that day, Specialist Christopher Gathercole. Christopher's brother and sister and grandmother are here with us today. I would ask that they stand briefly so that we can show our gratitude for their family's profound sacrifice.

(APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: Our heroes are all around us. They're the force behind the force. Military spouses, like Ashley who during Leroy's many deployments, during missed birthdays and holidays, has kept this family Army strong. So we're grateful to you, Ashley, and for all the military spouses who are here.

(APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: Their military children, like Brittany and Austin and Reagan and seven-year-old Landon, who at the end of a long day is there to gently rub his dad's injured arm. So, I want to make sure that we acknowledge these extraordinary children as well.

(APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: Our heroes are all around us. There are men and women in uniform who through a decade of war have earned their place among the greatest of generations. During World War II on D-Day it was the rangers of D company who famously scaled the cliffs of Ponduauck (ph). After 9/11 we learned again rangers lead the way. They were some of the first boots on the ground in Afghanistan. They've been deployed continuously ever since.

Today we can see our progress in this war and our success against al Qaeda, and we're beginning to bring our troops home from Afghanistan this summer. Understand, there will be more fighting and more sacrifices in the months and years to come, but I'm confident because of the service of men and women like Leroy, we will be able to say of this generation what President Reagan once said of those Rangers who took the cliffs on D-Day. These are the heroes who helped end a war.

I would ask all of our Rangers, members of the 9/11 generation, to stand and accept the thanks of a grateful nation.

(APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: Finally, the service of Leroy Petry speaks to the very essence of America. That spirit that says no matter how hard the journey, no matter how steep the climb, we don't quit. We don't give up. Leroy lost a hand, and those wounds in his legs sometimes make it hard for him to stand, but he pushes on and even joined his fellow Rangers for a grueling 20-mile march. He could have focused only on his own recovery, but today he helps care for other wounded warriors, inspiring them with his example. Given his wounds, he could have retired from the Army with honor, but he chose to reenlist indefinitely. And this past year he returned to Afghanistan, his eighth deployment, back with his Ranger brothers on another mission to keep our country safe.

This is the stuff of which heroes are made. This is the strength, the devotion that makes our troops the pride of every American. And this is the reason that, like a soldier named Leroy Petry, America doesn't simply endure. We emerge from our trials stronger, more confident with our eyes fixed on the future. Our heroes are all around us, and as we prepare for the reading of the citation, please join me in saluting one of those heroes, Leroy Petry.

(APPLAUSE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president of the United States of America authorizes by an act of Congress March 3rd, 1863, has awarded in the name of Congress the Medal of Honor to Staff Sergeant Leroy A. Petry, United States Army. Staff Sergeant Leroy A. Petry distinguished himself by acts of gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty in action with an armed enemy in the vicinity of Paktir province, Afghanistan on May 26th, 2008.

As a weapons squad leader with Delta company 2nd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment, Staff Sergeant Petry moved to clear the courtyard of a house that potentially contained high value combatants. While crossing the courtyard Staff Sergeant Petry and another Ranger were engaged and wounded by automatic weapons fire from enemy fighters. Still under enemy fire and wounded in both legs, the Staff Sergeant Petry led the other Ranger to cover. He then reported the situation and engaged the enemy with a hand grenade, providing suppression as another Ranger moved to his position.

The enemy quickly responded by maneuvering closer and throwing grenades. The first grenade explosion knocked his two fellow Rangers to the ground and wounded both with shrapnel. A second grenade then landed a few feet away from them. Instantly realizing the danger, Staff Sergeant Petry unhesitatingly and with complete disregard for his safety, deliberately and selflessly moved forward, picked up the grenade and in the effort to clear the immediate threat, threw the grenade away from the fellow Rangers. As he was releasing the grenade it detonated, amputating his right hand at the wrist and further injuring him with multiple shrapnel wounds.

Although picking up and throwing the live grenade grievously wounded Staff Sergeant Petry, his gallant act undeniably saved his fellow Rangers from being severely wounded or killed. Despite the severity of his wounds, Staff Sergeant Petry continued to maintain the presence of mind to place a tourniquet on his right wrist before communicating the situation by radio in order to coordinate support for himself and his fellow wounded Rangers.

Staff Sergeant Petry's extraordinary heroism and devotion of duty are in keeping with the highest traditions of military service and reflect great credit upon himself, 75th Ranger regiment and the United States Army.

(APPLAUSE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let us pray. Lord, be upon us this day, we all live the values and celebrate the commitment to our nation Sergeant First Class Petry has modeled. Give us strength this day and keep us always in your care. This we pray in your holy name. Amen.

AUDIENCE: Amen.

OBAMA: Thank you all for attending this extraordinary ceremony for this extraordinary hero. I hope that all of you will join the family. There is going to be an outstanding reception. I hear the food is pretty good around here.

(LAUGHTER)

OBAMA: I know the music is great, because we've got my own Marine band playing. So, thank you so much for your attendance, and once again, congratulations, Leroy, for your extraordinary devotion to our country. Thank you very much.

(APPLAUSE)

(END LIVE COVERAGE)

KAYE: And you've been watching a very rare but very special moment at the White House there. That is Staff Sergeant First Class Leroy Petry receiving the Medal of Honor for saving his fellow Rangers, and the president put that medal around his neck as an honor for his work and devotion to the country. He's a father of four from Santa Fe, New Mexico. Lost his right hand as you heard there, but certainly saved many lives there along the way as well.

We'll be right back with much more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: CNN In Depth now. Rupert Murdoch has built an impressive media empire, from Fox to the "Wall Street Journal" and dozens of entities in between. But now he's under fire because of what one of his British newspapers did. He shut down the "News of the World" tabloid because they hacked into voicemails of a murdered teenager and victims of the London terror attacks.

Murdoch and his son James has been summoned to answer questions before a Parliamentary committee in Britain. Investigators want to know what they knew about the "News of the World" practices and possible bribes made to police for personal information. Right now, Rupert Murdoch doesn't face any criminal charges himself. But his son, James, may under the U.S. government's U.S. Foreign Corrupt Practices Act and a similar law in the United Kingdom.

Joining me now on the phone to talk about Rupert Murdoch and his empire is William Shawcross, author of "Murdoch: The Making of a Media Empire."

First of all, Mr. Shawcross, do you think Rupert Murdoch might have known what was going on with his newspaper?

WILLIAM SHAWCROSS, AUTHOR (on the phone): I'm sure he didn't know of these awful incidents of hacking into the murdered teenager's cell phone or into the cell phones of the relatives of servicemen killed in Iraq or Afghanistan. Murdoch is a very astute person, and he would never -- that would be absolutely unforgivable.

It is those sorts of items of information and of abuse of power, journalistic power, that have turned so many millions in the country against what the "News of the World" did. When they were just hacking politicians or celebrities, that was always thought to be sort of fair game; people shrugged. This is thought to be beyond the pale, and Murdoch would have understood that.

KAYE: Well, how involved is he, though, in the day-to-day operation? I mean, should he have known what was going on?

SHAWCROSS: He's got, as you said in your introduction, a huge empire, and he spends more time in the United States now, in Los Angeles and in New York, than he does in Britain. In New York, he's been concentrating for the last few years on building up the "Wall Street Journal," which he took over in 2007, which he has built up very successfully. It's now the single biggest paper, broad sheet anyway, in the United States. It has a conservative editorial bent, but it's, I think, by common consent a very good newspaper.

So, he may not have spent enough time looking at what was going on in Britain as he should have done, and he left it to his lieutenants there. And something went terribly, terribly wrong it's quite clear.

KAYE: Tell me if you can How did he get the nickname the Dirty Digger? Where does that come from?

(LAUGHTER)

SHAWCROSS: Well, that's sort of typical English phrase. A digger is an Australian cat used in the First World War of Australian servicemen in Flanders and so on. And the dirty digger, I think, came in the late 1960s when he first came to Britain and he started to publish - he bought first "News of the World," which has just now closed with great regret because it was his first paper here and he loved it.

And then he bought another tabloid paper called "The Sun" which he turned into a very raunchy tabloid with bare-breasted girls on Page 3. And that, I think, was where the term The Dirty Digger arrived from at least in at least one of the British satirical papers that first called him that.

KAYE: How many times -- I'm sorry. Continue.

SHAWCROSS: No. Carry on.

KAYE: I was just curious how many times you've met him and what he's like in person.

SHAWCROSS: Well, I met him because I wrote a biography as you mentioned which published in the early '90s, a long time ago now. I met him a lot while I was doing that book. And I do see him from time to time thereafter, saw him some weeks ago in New York.

He's an incredibly charming person, and that's one of the reasons he's done so well. It's very hard to dislike him when you meet him and talk to him. A lot of politicians all over the world have found him very seductive in that way.

He's not brash. He's not rude to people. He's not contemptuous. He's very, very kind to people whatever their status. And that's -- and one secret of his success. And also in Britain, he's done an enormous amount for the British media. I think one should not forget this. That was in the "News of the World" more recently. He took on the print unions in the 1980s and defeated them. Before he did that, British newspapers were completely unprofitable and on the verge of going wholesale bankrupt. He created a profitable newspaper industry.

At the same time, he took on the BBC and produced satellite commercial television which is called B Sky B, which has now 10 million subscribers. And they would not have that service but for Murdoch. So, I think in terms of media plurality, he's done a great deal. But he's very unpopular because he's a conservative. He's unpopular on the left in England, and the main paper that has led this campaign against him and done a very good investigation, it has to be said, into the phone tapping scandal was "The Guardian," which is the left of center paper. Aided and abetted or supported, perhaps, with the affair with the BBC, which is also a rather left-wing organization, which doesn't like the competition from B Sky B, which Murdoch (INAUDIBLE).

KAYE: All right. William Shawcross, we certainly appreciate your insight. You've painted a very interesting picture of Mr. Murdoch, and we appreciate your time. Thank you.

SHAWCROSS: My pleasure. KAYE: Anger over out-of-control kids. Now one restaurant owner is banning children, but is he going too far? Our Stream Team weighs in next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: A Pennsylvania restaurant is making news for their new rules for children. Basically, they tell families to take their business elsewhere if they want to take their kids out to eat. Here, let the owner tell you why.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE VUICK, OWNER, MCDAIN'S RESTAURANT AND GOLF CENTER: We've had the place here for 22 years, and the restaurant nine. But I've noticed just in those nine years that there are certain parents who can't leave their children at home. Their child, maybe as it should be, is the center of their universe. But they don't realize it's not the center of the universe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: Well, the ban is for kids under the age of six. I guess they believe that's the age where kids learn to behave and hold their tongues apparently. It's an unusual move, no doubt, for a business to say no to kids unless, of course, it's an adult business. We don't want kids, of course, in strip clubs after all. But this is just a run-of-the-mill family restaurant where family is being used loosely. So, should businesses be able to ban children? That's the question. We're putting that question to our Stream Team today.

On the team, CNN chief business correspondent Ali Velshi. He's also the anchor of "AMERICAN MORNING," CNN's "WAKE UP CALL" and "YOUR $$$$$." Also with us is Sirius XM radio host Jennifer Koppleman Hutt. And CNN.com contributor LZ Granderson.

Welcome, everybody. Jennifer, I want to start with you. Good idea for that restaurant, banning these loud children?

JENNIFER KOPPLEMAN HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: I don't have a problem with it. I think kids can be in many places, and as long as this isn't discriminatory, it's not certain kids can come and certain kids cannot. It's all kids six and under, then that's okay.

KAYE: Ali, what do you think? I mean, you're our business guy. Is this a good move in this economy?

ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, companies do what they want. It may get them more business. Probably won't. Malaysian Airlines, you know, they said kids can't be in first class. They can be in business class.

Look, I'm the first guy who doesn't like screaming kids, but the fact is, kids scream. It's what they do. It's what they've done forever. I'm not quite sure what this says about society, that there are these moves to say kids can't govern themselves and can't keep their volume low enough. It's like, honestly, these are kids. I find it a little absurd.

KAYE: LZ, I want to ask you. I mean, here we have Ali mentioned that Malaysian Airlines is banning kids from first class. So do you think that's a good idea? Maybe a better use of the ban than something like this?

LZ GRANDERSON, CNN.COM CONTRIBUTOR: You know, I tend to agree with Jennifer. I think it's a good idea. As long as the business doesn't fall to pieces because its made this decision, I don't see this as an attack on kids. I don't see this as someone hating kids. But I think there's a time and place for everything. If the business owner decided they want a quieter environment, it's his prerogative.

KAYE: Jennifer, what's the magic number here? I mean, does something happen when they get beyond six years old?

HUTT: Definitely not. I think there are plenty of kids above the age of six years old who are out of control. But I don't know it that that's exactly the issue. The issue is is it wrong for this restaurant owner to decide kids shouldn't be allowed six and under. And I just don't think it's wrong. It's his choice. It's a private business. And sometimes it's nice to be in an adult-only environment that is not a strip club.

VELSHI: We accept, Jennifer and LZ and Randi, we accept that there's some places we don't want kids to be, and there are lots of places like that.

I guess what struck me is the tone. The idea that this guy has finally figured out that he had it with kids and some parents. He doesn't like the fact the kids are the center of the universe. It just seemed a little mean spirited. The fact is, you know, we have to all chill out and say we're not all the center of the universe, either. We share it with a lot of other people. Some of those people are little people. They've got big lungs and big complaints, and that's absolutely OK. It's the music to my ears, it's the music of life.

KAYE: Well, actually, LZ, I want to ask you. Because some of the patrons, some of the customers, said why are you targeting these six-year-olds? There's plenty of loud adults yapping on cell phones? Should those people be banned, too? Should we just ban everybody who makes noise?

(LAUGHTER)

GRANDERSON: I don't think he wants to ban everyone that makes noise, but you can't go to an adult and say no cell phone usage, and then you can expect an adult to respond to that. You can't expect the one-year-old to do that.

KAYE: I don't know. I don't know if that adult is Ali Velshi. I'm not sure.

VELSHI: Do you have picture of these two? Were they ever kids or did you just come - just show up grown up? I was a big crying pain in the you-know-what when I was a kid, and I'm sticking up for kids like me.

KAYE: Would - just raise your hand - would it prevent you from giving this restaurant your business if they didn't want kids under six there, yes or no. Just quick because we've got to go.

VELSHI: No.

HUTT: No.

KAYE: LZ?

GRANDERSON: No. No.

KAYE: All right. Well, I guess you guys won't be dining at that restaurant, but we'll see how it all goes. If it spreads any more than that. Thank you for weighing in. Appreciate it. Have a great afternoon.

VELSHI: See you, Randi.

KAYE: Well, that will do it for me. Right after this break, CNN NEWSROOM will continue with Brooke Baldwin.

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