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Rupert Murdoch Under Fire; Debate Negotiations Continuing; Bachmann Counseling Center Under Fire; Stalker Arrested at Halle Berry Home; Casey Anthony Juror Speaks Out

Aired July 13, 2011 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And hello to you. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Busy, busy day here in news on this Wednesday.

Here's a look at some of the stories we're working on for you right now.

First up: Rupert Murdoch under fire in Britain and in the United States. Two prominent senators are now agencies calling for an investigation into Murdoch's U.S. holdings. More on that.

Plus, have you heard about this story? An 8-year-old boy kidnapped, murdered, then mutilated. Now New York Police are scouring a stream of surveillance video for answers. More on that.

But, first, I want to begin with this. Let's just plunge right into the debt negotiations at this hour. Daily talks at the White House resume in one hour, and, by all accounts, they are becoming more tense, more heated, more testy the closer we get to the deadline.

You know the date by now, August 2, August 2, a potential default of the U.S. Treasury if Congress will not approve more borrowing.

Joining me now from the U.S. Capitol Building is Congressman Paul Broun, Republican of Georgia.

Congressman Broun, nice to see you. Good to have you on.

REP. PAUL BROUN (R), GEORGIA: Brooke, it's nice to be with you.

But I don't believe the August 2 deadline, frankly, and we don't default even if we pass the August 2 deadline, even if that's when we hit our debt ceiling.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Well, hang on, sir. Let me ask you -- let me begin with this. Let me begin with something I know you heard the president say yesterday, talking all those Social Security checks. I think he's mentioned 70 million of them.

And the question is the president is now saying he cannot guarantee the payment of those checks by that August 2 deadline whether you believe the date or not. Do you believe, sir, that that is simply a tactic to come out and say -- it's a tactic scare the American people?

BROUN: Absolutely. There's no question about it.

This is about scare tactics. We heard it during the TARP as well as the stimulus bill promotion that the president did. And it's nothing but scare tactics, trying to scare the senior citizens of this country, as well as everybody. In fact, we hear about that from the president on the Ryan budget plan.

So it's just politics as usual. And the American people deserve better than that. We have got to start dealing with this debt, this $14.3 trillion debt that we have on the books now, if you even believe that number, which I'm not sure is factual, is just unsustainable as a nation. We have to start paying down the debt.

BALDWIN: So, so far, I'm hearing you say we're not so sure about the deadline, although that is what Tim Geithner, the treasury secretary, has given, August 2. We're not sure about that debt number.

BROUN: Right.

BALDWIN: Let me ask you. Let me give you a hypothetical. Let's talk about taxes. And I want to throw out a hypothetical that perhaps will resonate with our viewers.

Here it is. Let's say Mr. and Mrs. Smith or Mr. and Mrs. Jones, they decide they're working too hard. They need a break. They need more time with the family. So what do they do? They cut their hours. They do make less money, but they keep the two cars, they keep the mortgage, keep the kids in private school, keep taking those family vacations.

So, surprise, surprise, they find themselves in debt. Now, wouldn't you say, Congressman Broun, would you say to Mr. and Mrs. Jones you need to get off your duffs, get back to work, earn more money, more revenue in order to pay their debts?

BROUN: Absolutely.

In fact, that's what a business has to do. In fact, I introduced a bill -- it's HR-2409 -- that would actually reduce the debt ceiling down to $13 trillion by October the 1st of this year.

And the point of that is just to start focusing on we have got to pay down the debt. In fact, if a business gets overextended as the federal government already is, then what do they do? The first thing that they do is they lower their borrowing limit. Then they start finding ways of paying off the debt.

Then the next thing that they do is look at the expenditures that they're going that they have and start cutting their expenses, which means cut all the outflow of their funds, and then they start looking at how to bring funds in.

Now, here in Washington, the Democrats say we need to bring in funds by increasing taxes, but that's actually a tax on jobs and would tax away jobs. We just need more taxpayers to bring in more funds. And then we need to look at the assets that the federal government has that are not needed and start selling those.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Let me jump in.

BROUN: OK. Sure.

BALDWIN: You mentioned taxes.

BROUN: OK.

BALDWIN: Of course, they need to cut expenses, as you mentioned, with the hypothetical and also talking about our nation, our debt. But they must not they also raise more money? And how can we -- I guess how can we do that without collecting more taxes?

BROUN: Well, Marco Rubio said just a day or two ago that what we need to do is not raise taxes, but raise more taxpayers.

And Senator Rubio is absolutely correct in that. We need to have more people going to work with good-paying jobs, so they pay more taxes. What we have to do is get the regulatory burden and tax burden off of business and industry, the job creators, so that we can get this economy going again. Raising taxes is going to hurt the economy and it is going to actually tax away jobs, which is absolutely adverse --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: You mentioned jobs. Let's look at some numbers here. We have prepared some numbers. You have Ronald Reagan took office with an annual deficit of $74 billion, cut taxes, and by the time he left office, the annual budget deficit had doubled.

Fast-forward, Bill Clinton took office with a deficit of $290 billion, raised taxes, turned the deficit into a surplus of $236 billion. George W. Bush inherited Bill Clinton's surplus, cut taxes, left office with a deficit of $458 billion.

Do you, sir, do you not see a correlation between cutting taxes and thus driving up the nation's deficit?

BROUN: Absolutely not.

In fact, let me give you a good example. During the Reagan administration, he did cut taxes. We had a tremendous economic growth, but the size of the federal government doubled during that period of time, even if you take away all of his defense buildup to try to defeat the Soviet Union.

It's all about spending. We're spending way beyond our means as a nation. And we have just got to stop it. It's unsustainable. We're heading towards an economic cliff as a nation and just slowing the train down.

(CROSSTALK)

BROUN: And, actually, the president himself just a couple of days ago says he understands that raising taxes is not going to bring any more revenue.

The way to bring in more revenue is by lowering taxes on the job creators so that we can have more jobs out there, more people paying taxes into the federal government. And that's what happened in the Reagan administration.

We had a marked increase in the revenue. The problem is, under Democratic control of Congress during the Reagan administration, they still spent more than they were bringing in. So, we have got to do what businesses and families do. We have got to stop the spending. We have got to be financially responsible to stop this financial fiasco that's going on.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: When you talk to businesses, when you talk to families, the one word that resonates no matter what side you're on is jobs. And you and your party say raising taxes will kill jobs.

(CROSSTALK)

BROUN: It will.

BALDWIN: But Bill Clinton raised taxes his eight years in office. The economy created 23 million jobs. That is a record. By the way, these numbers are from "The Wall Street Journal" and the Census Bureau. George Bush cut taxes eight years in office, three million jobs.

So, if raising taxes automatically, irrefutably kills jobs, as your side is saying, how did Bill Clinton raise taxes and create those 23 million jobs?

BROUN: Brooke, we had a good economic environment during the Clinton administration. We do not have that today.

What we have is we have a business community that's overtaxed and over-regulated. We have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. Every single other country in the world are lowering their corporate tax rate. And, in fact, let me give you an example. I talked to a multinational corporation manager and asked him, if we lowered the corporate tax rates down from 35 percent, the highest in the world, down to 25 percent, what would his response be as a businessman?

He said, we would expand our plants here in the United States, and we would start hiring more people. And I said, what if we dropped them down to zero, which I had introduced a bill that would do that actually? And he said, the first thing that we would do is we'd start moving the money from offshore onto shore, and we'd start building plants here in America, all over America. We are chasing jobs offshore with our regulatory burden, our tax burden that's on the job creators here in America. We have just got to stop that. We have got to start bringing those dollars and jobs back to America. We do that by lowering taxes, by lowering the regulatory burden on business and industry, by getting rid of this huge debt that the federal government has.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: With all due respect, we have to talk about compromise, and where would your side be willing to compromise when it comes to taxes?

BROUN: Well, the president's not willing to compromise at all. He's absolutely insistent on taxing job creators here in America.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: He's talking about cutting entitlements. He says some folks on the far left none too pleased with him there. So you think, what's the far right willing to compromise on?

BROUN: Well, listen, what he's saying is -- he reminds me of the cartoon character Wimpy, where Wimpy said, I will pay you tomorrow for a hamburger today.

And what he's saying is we will -- you raise taxes right now, and we will give you those cuts in the future. Those are never going to happen. This is deja vu. It happened under the Reagan administration and it happened --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: So, will you compromise? Will your side compromise on taxes at all?

BROUN: Well, I don't see that we can or will, for the simple reason that it's going to tax away jobs and it's going to hurt our economy. And it's absolutely adverse to the financial situation here in this country.

We're in an economic emergency, Brooke. And in an economic emergency, you have to do emergent procedures. I'm a medical doctor. I have worked in emergency rooms, and I know about those types of things. And we have got to start paying down the debt. We have got to stop spending money that we don't have today. We have got to look into every single corner of the federal expenditures, discretionary, as well as the non-discretionary spending...

BALDWIN: OK.

BROUN: -- and start cutting, and stop spending money we just don't have. It hasn't worked in the past, and it never will work.

(CROSSTALK) BALDWIN: Congressman Paul Broun, we're still watching to see what sides do what by August 2. Thank you so much, sir, for coming on. I appreciate it.

BROUN: Thanks, Brooke. Appreciate it. Thank you.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

Now watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Order! Order! Order! Order!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The British phone hacking scandal that's already taken down one tabloid could threaten Prime Minister Gordon Brown's (sic) career. He faces a furious -- you just heard -- furious British Parliament, with many wondering what he knew and when.

Plus, this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW RAMIREZ, FORMER PATIENT: It was therapy that would help me change from being homosexual to straight.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's how he described it?

RAMIREZ: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Pray the gay away, that's what one group is alleging a clinic run by Michele Bachmann's husband wanted them to do. CNN investigates Marcus Bachmann's controversial therapy practice in Minnesota.

You don't want to miss the story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: This has not been such a hot day for Rupert Murdoch and his media empire. Murdoch is in London right now dealing with the U.K. phone hacking scandal.

But in this country today, not just one, but two prominent senators called for an investigation into Murdoch's U.S. holdings, which include "The Wall Street Journal" and FOX News.

Here is Senator Jay Rockefeller.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JAY ROCKEFELLER (D), WEST VIRGINIA: It's really repugnant that one man can control so many. People in the Parliament -- I watched the Parliament debate on television. They were talking about how they control the Labor Party, but then when they go out, they control the Conservative Party. So it's all about that, and that's bad for the world. It's certainly bad for America. And we have enough problems getting objective media.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And here is what Senator Frank Lautenberg wrote in the letter to Attorney General Eric Holder.

He wrote this: "Further investigation may reveal that current reports only scratch the surface of the problem at News Corporation. Accordingly, I am requesting that DOJ and the SEC examine these circumstances and determine whether U.S. laws have been violated."

In the U.K., where the outcry is much, much, very much so the loudest here, this morning Murdoch dropped his bid for Britain's lucrative BSkyB satellite television company. Listen to how hot the discussion got in Britain's House of Commons.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: There is a firestorm, if you like, that is engulfing parts of the media, parts of the police, and indeed our political system's ability to respond.

And what we must do in the coming days and weeks is think above all of the victims like the Dowler family, who are watching this today, and make doubly sure that we get to the bottom of what happened and we prosecute those who are guilty.

What has happened at this company is disgraceful. It's got to be addressed at every level, and they should stop thinking about mergers when they have got to sort out the mess they have created.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So with investigations being called into Murdoch's U.S. practices, you may be wondering how much influence his media empire really has right here.

CNN's Becky Anderson looks at his U.S. holdings.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: News Corp has plenty at stake in the United States, including the majority of its profits.

Its television sector earns the company $15 billion a year. That is largely thanks to the success of FOX Network, you will know that, and hit shows like "American Idol," "24," and "The Simpsons." Also, News Corp. owns FOX Sports and 27 television stations from New York to Los Angeles. In fact, when you look at the map across the country, each of these antennas actually represents a station that is under Murdoch's control, and this, also owns, of course, FOX News, FOX Business, and other cable networks, including FX and the National Geographic Channel.

But moving on from TV for you, Murdoch's film division is also highly lucrative, bringing in more than $7 billion a year, largely thanks to the success of popular 20th Century Fox films such as "Avatar" and the "Star Wars" and "X-Men" franchises.

Its newspaper holdings also important, also profitable in the U.S., with such titles such as "The Wall Street Journal" and "New York Post." And then finally News Corp. owns the U.S. publisher HarperCollins, with notable authors such as J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis under their belt.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Becky Anderson, thank you very much.

And news flash, if you haven't put your big toe outside yet, folks, it's hot. And when I say hot, I'm talking triple digits. Live pictures, yes, Atlanta looks pretty, but take it from me. It's not so nice when you walk outside. In fact, in Arkansas, for those of you there today, 108 degrees in parts of that state. But there is some relief in sight. Meteorologist Chad Myers is going to join me next with that.

Plus, the youngest of those 12 jurors, juror number three, a nursing student, talking to CNN about her decision in the Casey Anthony case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, what convinced you and the five others to switch your votes and vote for not guilty?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think everyone will tell you the same thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: You have to hear the rest of her answer. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(WEATHER UPDATE)

BALDWIN: And now this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAYMOND KELLY, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: When detectives asked where the boy was, Aron nodded toward the kitchen, where detectives observed blood on the freezer handle of the refrigerator.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Kidnapped, killed, then mutilated. Why? Why would someone commit such an unthinkable crime against an 8-year-old boy? And what does the stream of surveillance videos actually say about this particular crime? We're going to have a lot more on this developing story. That is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Now to a heart-wrenching story.

Like all little boys, 8-year-old Leiby Kletzky just wanted to walk home from camp, but he never made it back to his mother just seven blocks away. New York police found his body in Brooklyn today. A 35-year-old suspect is believed to have killed him and then cut his body into pieces.

N.J. Burkett has the details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

N.J. BURKETT, REPORTER (voice-over): The child's body was found inside a suitcase, wrapped in a plastic bag, and dumped in a dumpster on 20th Street near Fourth Avenue. Other remains were recovered from a refrigerator in the suspect's apartment in Kensington. Detectives identified him as 35-year-old Levi Aron. The motive was not immediately clear.

KELLY: There is no indication at this time that the victim was known to the suspect previously. It was just happenstance and a terrible fate for this young boy.

BURKETT: Little Leiby Kletzky had been missing since he left his orthodox day camp on Monday afternoon. This morning, the family's rabbi left the boy's apartment with NYPD detectives moments after the parents learned their child's fate.

RABBI BERNARD FREILICH, FAMILY FRIEND: I got a call from police to come down because there's going to make -- we're going to make notification.

BURKETT: The child's disappearance gripped Brooklyn's tight-knit orthodox community for 36 hours. Leiby was last seen asking directions from a bearded man while on his way home. It was this video that helped police track the suspect, who is seen on another surveillance camera leaving a nearby dentist's office. The dentist later confirmed the man's identity, and detectives made the arrest in the middle of the night.

KELLY: When detectives asked where the boy was, Aron nodded toward the kitchen, where detectives observed blood on the freezer handle of the refrigerator.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Now, no charges have been filed yet against Levi Aron. Police say the medical examiner has yet to find out how exactly the boy was killed.

And, parents, in some sliver of a way, you can relate because your child asks you, is it OK if I walk home alone? When is it OK? I will talk to a former N.Y. police detective about that and more on this gruesome, gruesome case. That is next hour.

But coming up next, Michele Bachmann topping the polls and flying high on the campaign trail, she is trying to stay on message, but questions about her husband, Marcus Bachmann, not going away -- the controversy surrounding his counseling clinic straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Republican presidential hopeful Michelle Bachmann and other lawmakers are pushing to make sure U.S. troops' paychecks aren't delayed by this debate over the debt ceiling. In fact today the Minnesota congresswoman backed legislation which would prioritize paying members of the armed forces even if the U.S. hits its debt limit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MICHELE BACHMANN, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Under no circumstances should the brave men and women in uniform who are fighting to protect the liberties of this nation while the United States is engaged in various conflicts, should they have for a moment their military pay be somehow in abeyance or suspended. The families of the military deserve far better than that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Gay rights advocates want to call Michelle Bachmann on the carpet because of this Christian counseling center she and her husband own. Hidden camera video indicates the clinic uses a Bible- based psychotherapy to try to convert gays to being straight. Here's Jim Acosta.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REP. MICHELE BACHMANN, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hi, everybody.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In her campaign for president, Michele Bachmann touts her background as a small business owner.

BACHMANN: As a mom of five, a foster parent, and a former tax lawyer and now a small business job creator --

ACOSTA: That business is Bachmann and Associates, a Christian counseling service outside Minneapolis run by her husband, Marcus. They're both pictured on the clinic's website.

In recent years the clinic has faced accusations that it encourages gay and lesbian patients to change their sexual orientation, a practice that is frowned upon by mental health experts. Back in 2004 Andrew Ramirez at the urging of his mother turned to Bachmann and Associates to talk about his own homosexuality. The 17- year-old said he was skeptical of what one of the clinic's counselors told him.

ANDREW RAMIREZ, FORMER BACHMANN AND ASSOCIATES PATIENT: It was therapy that would help me change from being homosexual to straight.

ACOSTA (on camera): That's how he described it?

RAMIREZ: Yes.

ACOSTA: He basically said if you do this, what? You wouldn't be gay anymore?

RAMIREZ: If I did this and worked his therapy program that could perform a miracle and could no longer be gay.

ACOSTA (voice-over): Ramirez said he was assigned a therapy program consisting of prayer and reading Bible passages. He also says he was told he would be mentored by an ex-lesbian minister. And if none of that, Ramirez said the counselor had another idea.

ACOSTA (on camera): He suggested to you what?

RAMIREZ: Not acting out on my same sex attractions and living a life in celibacy.

ACOSTA: That was an alternative to being gay?

RAMIREZ: Right.

ACOSTA: After the second session, Ramirez told his mother he wanted to stop.

BETH SHELLENBARGER, ANDREW'S MOTHER: And I could just hear his voice quiver. I just said, you know, Andy, if you're good with being gay, then I am too.

ACOSTA: The American Psychological Association is sharply critical of what is known in the mental health community as "reparative therapy," saying in a recent report "There is insufficient evidence to support the use of psychological interventions to change sexual orientation."

But in a talk radio interview last years, Marcus Bachmann compared gay teenagers to barbarians who must be disciplined.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you say when your teenager says she's gay? What do you say to Christian parents who come up with this?

MARCUS BACHMANN, MICHELE BACHMANN'S HUSBAND: Well, I think you clearly say what is the understanding of god's word on homosexuality. And I think that this is no mystery that a child or preadolescent, particularly adolescents, will question and wonder. Certainly, there is that -- there is that curiosity.

But, again, we -- like, you know, it is as if we have to understand barbarians need to be educated. They need to be disciplined. And just because someone feels it or thinks it doesn't mean that we're supposed to go down that road.

ACOSTA: Back in 2006, Bachmann denied his practice engaged in reparative therapy, telling a Minneapolis newspaper "That's a false statement," and went on to say "If someone is interested in talking to us about their homosexuality, we are open to talking about that. But if someone comes in a homosexual and want to stay homosexual, I don't have a problem with that."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would you suggest to me like a treatment plan type of thing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You definitely pray.

ACOSTA: This week a gay right group, Truth Wins Out, released its own hidden video camera recorded by one of its activists who posed as a patient at Bachmann and Associates.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you actually leave homosexuality completely and become heterosexual?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes, definitely. I have seen it. It has happened. It really has.

ACOSTA: In the full five sessions of footage captured by Truth Wins Out, while the counselor at time suggests homosexuality can be treated at the clinic, he also concedes he is not an expert on the subject.

Michele Bachmann has a long history of views on homosexuality. She recently signed a pledge to defend marriage that compared same sex couples to polygamist. That's a comparison Bachmann made as a state lawmaker in 2004 when she called for amendment to block gay marriages in other states from being recognized in Minnesota.

MICHELE BACHMANN: If we allow this to happen, group marriage, polygamy, and things much worse may not be far behind.

ACOSTA: Both Bachmanns declined a request for interviews. Her campaign released a statement to CNN that says "The Bachmanns are in no position ethically, legally, or morally to discuss specific courses of treatment concerning the clinics patients." When a local TV station in Iowa tried asked Bachmann whether her family clinic engages in reparative therapy, she dodged the question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it something that is conducted at that center.

BACHMANN: Well, I'm running for the presidency of the United States and I'm here today to talk about job creation and also the fact that we do have a business that deals with job creation. We're very proud of the business that we have created. ASCOT: The latest polls show Michelle Bachmann has a serious shot at winning the Iowa caucuses, where social conservatives will be a decisive factor and who just might consider the Bachmann Christian counseling center a potent political asset.

Jim Acosta, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Coming up next, juror number three in the Casey Anthony trial is now speaking out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNIFER FORD, JUROR, CASEY ANTHONY MURDER TRIAL: You come home and everyone's mad at you, and the media is outside hounding you and making it clear they're not leaving.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: She tells CNN what her life has been like since the verdict. And as you can tell, it's not been so good. CNN's Gary Tuchman talked to that juror. He's going to tell us more about what she had to say, including why she voted to acquit.

Plus, the man obsessed with Halle Berry. So obsessed, he allegedly jumped the fence at her Hollywood home not just once, but twice this week. We're back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You could hardly go anywhere during the past week and not hear people, probably including you, discussing the verdict in the Casey Anthony case. And it's safe to say people are mad. They are very, very mad over this. And a lot of that anger is now being detected toward the jurors, those 12 jurors who found Anthony not guilty in the death of her two-year-old daughter Caylee. Listen to this one juror.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FORD: Just because for six weeks we had minimal freedoms, and then the welcoming committee -- I'm being sarcastic, but you come home and everyone's mad at you. And the media's outside hounding you and making it clear they're not leaving. And it's just very stressful. And, you know, get anonymous letters from people that are hateful and nasty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That is just one piece of the interview. There he is, Gary Tuchman. He scored this interview with juror Jennifer Ford. And Gary, I know you're one of the nicest guys I know, but how in the world did you get her to talk to you? She's already talking about getting hate mail. Don't you think she'll now get even more? GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, first of all, thank you for saying that. I do appreciate that. And she didn't think I was a very nice guy when we showed up at her home.

And I explained to her, though, we didn't want to just hear what happened in the jury room. We wanted to talk to her about the humanity of the situation and what's happened in the days since and get that story out there, because we feel very strongly -- we know this is an unpopular verdict. Polls showed that. We feel very strongly that no matter what the verdict, you can't take your anger out on jurors because if anger is taken out on jurors and there's notes and death threats and retribution, who will ever want to serve on a jury? So we talked to her about that, spent a few hours with her, and that's when we conducted our interview.

BALDWIN: OK, so let's take a look at the longer piece of this interview, how she explains to you how -- what was it, 11 hours of deliberation, how they came to this not guilty verdict so quickly. Let's take a look.

TUCHMAN: Right. Can I say one thing?

BALDWIN: Absolutely. Go ahead.

TUCHMAN: I need to set this up properly. So I apologize for that. But the setup we need to show is initially when they went into the jury room, the vote was 10 to two to acquit her of the most serious murder charge. That quickly went unanimous. But it was six to six split on the manslaughter charge. At that point, this juror, Jennifer Ford, thought the verdict could go either way. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TUCHMAN: You tell me the original vote for the aggravated manslaughter was six to six.

FORD: Correct.

TUCHMAN: And which side of the six were you on?

FORD: The manslaughter.

TUCHMAN: So originally you thought that she was guilty of manslaughter or could be guilty?

FORD: Could be, and I wanted to investigate it further to see if it fit based on the evidence that we were given.

TUCHMAN: So what convinced you and the five others to switch your votes and vote for not guilty?

FORD: I think everyone will tell you the same thing. It's just lack of hard evidence. Like I said, the duct tape and the chloroform and things like that, you could -- if you took a good hard look at it, you could kind of -- there was a lot of doubt surrounding all of those certain things. So there's not enough to make anything stick. TUCHMAN: So you don't necessarily think she's innocent, but you feel you don't have enough proof to find her guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?

FORD: Right. I don't know either way. I mean, obviously, it's not been proven that she's innocent, but it certainly hasn't been proven that she's guilty.

TUCHMAN: The defense in their opening statement said that Casey Anthony's father molested her repeatedly when she was young and that's the reason why she kept the drowning of her child secret. Do you believe that she could have been molested? Was there evidence she could have been molested by her father?

FORD: There was no evidence, none at all, and that had no bearing on any verdict that was made. I mean, that was irrelevant. It was thrown out there but never substantiated. So it had no bearing.

TUCHMAN: Did it bother you it wasn't substantiated later in the trial? The judge said you cannot bring it up in your closing arguments, defense, because you didn't present any evidence about it.

FORD: I really wish he didn't bring it up. It's a disturbing image. He painted a very graphic and disgusting picture. And if you're going to do it, at least back it up. If you can't back it up, don't put that picture in people's minds. Nobody wants to see that.

TUCHMAN: And the drowning, the only evidence that was presented pictures of Caylee climbing in the pool with her grandmother standing near a screen door, a door which her grandmother testified she couldn't open. It was pretty flimsy evidence at best. I'm wondering if you think there was a possibility that she could have drowned. Was there any evidence that convinced you of that?

FORD: There's no evidence that convinced me of that, no.

TUCHMAN: So you don't think she drowned, you don't think she was molested. So what the casual viewer of this trial might say, OK, how come she's not guilty of murder?

FORD: Because it has nothing to do with what the defense presents. It's on the prosecution to prove. They brought charges. They have to prove with their evidence that those charges are -- they can validate, bring those charges, and the crime was committed.

TUCHMAN: So you didn't believe the central points of what the defense told you, but you just felt the prosecution didn't have enough evidence to convict?

FORD: Well, they had -- like I said, they had good strong circumstantial evidence. But at the end of the day, it was circumstantial, and there was not one strong piece of evidence that said something definitively. Every piece of evidence could have gone this way or that way. There were many different ways you could have gone with each piece of evidence. (END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCHMAN: Jennifer Ford tells me it makes her sick to her stomach knowing that there is a possibility that they will not have been responsible for releasing a murderer, but they did not have proof beyond a reasonable doubt that she was legally guilty of murder or manslaughter.

And also, Brooke, what was fascinating is she told me what shocked all the jurors -- and we certainly didn't know this watching the trial -- but what shocked all the jurors was when the prosecution rested its case, the jurors discussed in the deliberation room, what do you mean you're resting case? We haven't even heard the best evidence yet. They presumed there was more evidence, and there wasn't. That was very interesting hearing her tell me that.

BALDWIN: And that's what it was, it was that lack of evidence that led them to their ultimate decision. Gary Tuchman fascinating hearing from her finally, the youngest, 32 years of age. Gary, appreciate it.

A big star, her big house, and an even bigger security scare. What drove a man to come back to Halle Berry's house again and again? We're talking about this frightening intruder in the Hollywood hills. Much more on that and then what possesses someone to stalk.

Also, we're live in Washington as the White House is hosting yet another one of those debt meetings. Remember that August 2nd deadline? The clock is tick, tick, ticking away. Be right back.

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BALDWIN: Have you heard about this man accused of stocking Halle Berry? It is all over the Internet right now. It's trending. The actress was at home with her three-year-old daughter when this man tried getting into her house. Now 27-year-old Richard Franco is to be arraigned today. At one point he was standing ten feet away from her on the other side of her kitchen door.

Barry slammed the deadbolt, ran through the house slamming doors behind her. She went upstairs, picked up the phone and dialed 911. Apparently he was gone by the time police arrived, but, alas, he came back. And that time off duty police officers caught him and they arrested him Monday night.

Alan Duke is standing by for us, covering the story for us in Los Angeles. And also clinical psychologist Jeff Gardere back with us this week, in New York this time, to talk about what possesses someone to stalk. Gentlemen, thanks for being on. Alan, I do want to begin with you. I know you have the -- you read the affidavit with the restraining order. Some of these quotes coming from Halle Berry, they are chilling about how she talks about standing there screaming "There's a guy in my yard!"

ALAN DUKE, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: It's very chilling. It's almost like an Alfred Hitchcock thriller sometimes when you read what she did. It happened on three occasions she had this encounter. The first two were Saturday and then Sunday. The guy kept coming back according to police.

And it was a situation that, of course, scared her then so she hired extra security people. Off duty Los Angeles police officers were near her home on Monday night when he allegedly came back and the neighbors saw him. And they used a walkie-talkie to tell her run for cover, find a safe place, because there's a guy out here. They nabbed him, and now he's in court to face charges of felony stalking.

BALDWIN: Alan, stand by. I have a couple of more questions for you. But I want to bring Dr. Jeff in. Dr. Jeff, what possesses a person to stalk?

DR. JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, in this particular case, it seems like this guy, he is a convicted felon, so maybe some sort of sociopath. But he has a delusional system that has been set up where Halle Berry is in love with him or he can convince her, can legitimately convince her to fall in love with him.

But I also see this man as being very sadistic in that he hasn't even read the social cues where she's screaming. She doesn't want any parts of him. And so he is controlling her by fear. He knows that she's afraid, so therefore he's going to keep presenting himself in a way that is very threatening. A very dangerous individual.

BALDWIN: How does one become so delusional? How does this happen?

GARDERE: Well, this is usually a person who may be at risk for other psychological issues. But we see with most stalking -- and, by the way, 1.4 million Americans are victims of stalking, two-thirds are women. And normally the stalkers, most of these stalkers have been in a relationship with that person, usually a man who is stalking a woman. And we see it the other way around.

But they just can't seem to let go of that individual or the love or the rejection. And when they're rejected, they become angry and they start becoming delusional where they can't accept the fact that they are being rejected. Therefore they build this world where they say, this person really loves me, but they really don't know it.

BALDWIN: Alan Duke what do we know about this guy other than the fact that he's 27? What else?

DUKE: He's from Commerce, California, 27. The most we know is from that affidavit that Halle Berry filed with the court yesterday seeking a temporary restraining order. She says police told her that he had a history of violence, theft, and drug use. The scariest thing perhaps, the most chilling, is that he was carrying a book that police told her contained nonsensical ramblings, writings, including her name written in his hand. We don't know if he had a weapon, though.

BALDWIN: A book. Dr. Jeff, you get the last word. What do you make of the book? I guess it falls in line with your talking about these people are just simply delusional. Writing her name over and over?

Yes, absolutely. It really sounds like there's some OCD here, obsessive-compulsive disorder. We see it. But from I'm hearing from Alan, this guy is more than just a sociopath. He might be more than just delusional, might have some real psychosis going on and perhaps should have been treated, and that makes the situation even that the much worse.

BALDWIN: Thank goodness they've got him in custody. Gentlemen, Jeff Gardere, Alan Duke, thanks to you both. Frightening.

GARDERE: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up at the top of the hour, he says he is a reformed terrorist. Now he travels America lecturing churches and police about the dangers of radical Islam. And by the way, he makes a lot of money doing this. But is he telling the truth? It's a CNN investigation you don't want to miss. We'll be right back.

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BALDWIN: Time now for you CNN = Politics update. Let's go to Wolf Blitzer with the latest news of the Political Ticker. Wolf Blitzer, President Obama raking in some pretty impressive fundraising cash?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": Yes. He's pretty good in raising money. He announced that he's seeking reelection early in April. And over the past three months, April, May, and June, the numbers are now out. It's official. Between what he raised for his own campaign and what he raised for the Democratic National Committee at various events, $86 million -- $47 million he raised for his reelection campaign, another $39 million for the Democratic National Committee. That's a lot more money than all of the Republican candidates combined raised, and it's certainly a lot more money than George W. Bush raised when he was beginning his reelection campaign back in about eight years ago, I guess we should say right now.

So the president of the United States very, very effective still in raising lots of money. There's been some suggestion at least by some of his reelection campaign officials that he wants to raise $1 billion between now and November of next year. We'll see how much of that goal he manages to achieve.

He doesn't even have, as you know, any Democratic opponents running for the Democratic presidential nomination, but he's raising money, looking ahead to the general election after the Republicans name their nominee.

Some other political news we're watching right now, Senator Rockefeller among other Democrats in the Senate right now calling on the Justice Department to open an investigation into Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation holdings here in the United States, so wondering if some of the allegations that have occurred in Britain are also happening here in the United States. Rockefeller saying "My bet is we'll find some criminal stuff. This is going to be a huge issue." He didn't release any evidence of why he says that, but other senators, including Senator Bob Menendez, Democrat of New Jersey, will be in "THE SITUATION ROOM." They're agreeing with him. Senator Boxer of California, a bunch of Democratic senators now calling for a full scale investigation of News Corporation here in the United States.

Finally, one additional event with a little note I want to point out. Newt Gingrich, as you know, he's running for president of the United States as well. He was asked -- and his campaign, as you know, Brooke, in a lot of trouble. He was asked who his second favorite Republican would be if he didn't manage to get that nomination, and he mentioned the Texas governor Rick Perry, who's not even an official candidate.

But a lot of us think that Rick Perry eventually after his prayer and fast event early August in Texas that he's organizing, he's going to announce that he's running for president of the United States. That will shake things up, another Texan running for the White House. We will see how that unfolds -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Yes, I guess that's a safe bet. You throw out a guy's name who is not even in the race yet.

Wolf Blitzer, thank you very much.

We will to get another "Political Ticker" update for you in half an hour.