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Gunman Enters Journalists' Hotel; Two of Gadhafi's Sons Captured; The Battle for Tripoli; Opposition Takes Tripoli's Green Square

Aired August 21, 2011 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

HALA GORANI, CNN ANCHOR: A tense situation with security and government minders, as Matthew was reporting, leaving the hotel, leaving journalists really alone in the hotel. A group of journalists their huddled together, hoping that safety in numbers is their best bet at this point. But there is, of course, the expectations that rebels will advance deep enough into Tripoli that they will end up entering the hotel.

Matthew was saying that the government minders and that security forces in the hotel have left. That said, around the perimeter it is believed that there are armed guards. So that if rebels make it all the way to the hotel, it is, of course, possible that violence could occur on the outskirts of the hotel, a very tense situation, an uncertain situation as well for these journalists in the Rixos (ph) Hotel; over the last five months, covering developments from Libya, five-plus months, under the watchful eye of government minders.

Today, everything has changed. Today is breaking news out of Libya with rebels advancing into Tripoli; rebel officials say two of Moammar Gadhafi's sons have been captured. This is one of them, Saif al-Islam Gadhafi. A short time ago, a spokesman for the Libyan government called for immediate negotiations and a halt to the rebel assault.

This is video from our colleagues at Sky News from Tripoli you can see people on the streets. They're chanting "Libya is free. Gadhafi needs to go." Rebel forces say they are now in control of most parts of the capital and the government itself is conceding that parts of the city are no longer under its control. And it says also that 1,300 people have been killed over the past 12 hours.

What about Moammar Gadhafi in all of this? There is so much uncertainty surrounding the situation on the ground. Where are rebels now? How much of the city have they captured and where is the man who was in charge of Libya for 42 years? Moammar Gadhafi. There was an audio message from him earlier today on state TV; he vowed to fight to the last drop of blood.

But now there are numerous news reports out of Libya that security forces are surrendering. Perhaps they think it's not worth the fight. The rebel fighters pushed towards Tripoli after seizing the oil-rich port town of Zawiya. That is just 30 miles down the road from the Libyan capital.

Our Sara Sidner has been covering the fight for Zawiya, a battle which seemed to go back and forth for weeks, even months and finally went the way of the rebels. Sara, can you hear me?

SARA SIDNER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): I can. Yes, I can hear you.

GORANI: Fine. What is -- where are you now? What is the latest from your vantage point, Sara?

SIDNER: We're in a neighborhood in Zawiya and for the past three or four hours we've been seeing lots of celebratory gunfire. You can hear that there behind us, more celebratory gunfire. We even saw fireworks coming from the city's center. People are yelling, "Libya is free."

There is a lot of jubilation here because the rebels not only have been able to hold Zawiya for the past couple of days, they have been able to move in towards Tripoli and now say that they have made it all the way into the city of Tripoli.

Earlier in the day we were actually turned around on the coastal road, the important supply route into Tripoli from Zawiya because the fighting was so fierce about 25 kilometers outside of the city that was about 15 miles. But by tonight, and it is now about 1:00 in the morning here, they have pushed into the city. They say that there is still fierce fighting going on but they have pushed into the city from the west -- Hala.

GORANI: And the question is they are in Tripoli now. This still could be a terribly, terribly bloody fight -- Sara.

SIDNER: I think that is very definitely, Hala. Because no one quite knows exactly what kind of fire power Gadhafi and his regime have in that city. Everyone's speculating that he has quite a bit. He said that he has plenty of fire power. That he will use by any means necessary to keep his position. But we do not know for sure what these rebels will be facing and of course, what civilians will be facing.

And one of the things we're hearing from these rebel fighters is that they're going to have to be very cautious. Because obviously they have to deal with civilians in the area trying to keep them from getting caught in the crosshairs but also NATO has to be extremely careful because their whole mission is to protect civilians.

It isn't as it they can tell everyone, ok, move out of the area, we are going to take some action. This is a heavily populated capital with civilians, families, people living there. Now a lot of those families cannot get out of the city, because the roads are blocked. There is a lot of confusion. There was a lot of gunfire going on and so this could end up being a really major battle there.

But there have been a lot of significant development, Gadhafi's son being arrested. No one expected that to happen so quickly. So you just never know what is going to happen in the next few minutes -- Hala.

GORANI: Yes and it's important to underline the fact that NATO air strikes can be useful in one way on the battlefield, but certainly not useful in urban fighting, in an urban fighting scenario, where you're really going street to street, sometimes building to building -- Sara.

SIDNER: Right. And it's the most dangerous kind of warfare, because you cannot see around the corner. You have to know this city like the back of your hand, and still yet you won't know who might be around the corner. Who might be there -- whether it's a friend or a foe, depending on which side that you're fighting for.

So it can get pretty ugly. Not only for the residents who are kind of stuck in the middle of all this but for the fighters on either side, for the regime and for the rebels themselves.

We should also mention, we can tell you a little bit about strategy and what happens with NATO and the rebels. They are in very close contact. And we know that because we've seen it in several cities, from Misrata to Benghazi, to now here in Zawiya.

What happened here is that there were so many snipers in the city center of Zawiya. The rebels a couple days before were warned. Please, move everybody out of the city center and get yourselves out of the way, because some action may be taken by NATO and indeed, 48 hours later, there was air strikes from the air, obviously by NATO, and that is what moved the rebels forward, because they gotten rid of the snipers on those buildings and they were able to charge forward and now they have finally made it into Tripoli from the west -- Hala.

GORANI: Sara Sidner is in western Libya in Zawiya and our Matthew Chance at the Rixos Hotel as we saw there in Tripoli. Do stay safe, both of you, as our teams continue to work hard and in difficult conditions to bring you the latest on the Libya story.

Let's bring in veteran American diplomat Nicholas Burns. He is now at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, he joins us now from Providence, Rhode Island. Thanks for being with us.

As we see the fighting unfold, it seems almost a near certainty that the rebels at some point, whether it's today, whether it's in a few weeks, will take Tripoli. But then what? I mean, how do you stabilize politically this country?

NICHOLAS BURNS, FORMER UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE: Well Hala, I think first we've to see what happens in the next 24 hour. Events are moving at lightning speed. I would say with the two sons arrested, if that is true and with security forces disappearing in the streets of Tripoli, Gadhafi's hours may be numbered, not just his days being numbered. It may be he can flee to a remote military base wherever he may be, but he quickly appears to be losing control.

And as we look ahead, if that is to happen, it's going to be extraordinarily difficult for the transitional national council, the rebel political body to put the pieces back together again. So many cities in Libya have been shattered by the fighting over the last six months.

Infrastructure of course has been destroyed. There are so many poor people and people without access to resources. It's going to be enormously difficult for that government to get its footing, this new government, when it takes power, and to provide services as well as to begin to gain some measure of political control over this very vast and very diverse country.

GORANI: And what about -- well, there's political control and then there's political credibility, and then there is the trust that they may or may -- that they may have or may not have right now with the Libyan people to usher this country into a true pluralistic democracy. I mean, the challenges are immense.

BURNS: They are Hala. And as you know very well, Gadhafi survived for over 40 years because he played one tribe off against another. And so in this tribal-based society, it will be difficult for an alliance that has been based in eastern Libya and Benghazi to have credibility, in parts of the west, in parts of the center of part of the country and Sirte where Gadhafi comes from. And so building some credibility with those tribes and keeping the country quiet is going to be -- is going to be a very, very tall order.

There are a lot of scenarios that can play out in the next 24 hour. One of course, is that Gadhafi is finished and loses power, perhaps even from an internal coup or the disappearance for the military in the next several hours. The second is that he will find to the end, he'll have enough fire power and enough people with him to do a lot of damage. We'll just have to wait and see. But this is not yet -- not yet at all decided.

GORANI: Well, what about NATO and these western powers and NATO powers, other countries who've participated in this air strike campaign. They pitched in militarily to help the rebels, even though they're mandate was to protect civilians, in many ways they were military -- militarily helping the rebels. What can they do?

BURNS: Well you know, I think that NATO has really done what it can do. It's been in essence the air arm of the rebel alliance over the last six months. It's made a very big impact over the last several days and weeks and intensified air strikes against Gadhafi's forces outside of Tripoli -- Tripoli.

But if the fighting now is in the center of the capital city, if it's street to street, NATO air power is going to be rather limited. They won't have the confidence that they can protect civilian lives by firing into that city. So it may be now we're witnessing the final battle. The rebel alliance against Gadhafi's dwindling forces inside of Tripoli.

GORANI: Nicholas Burns, former undersecretary of state, thanks very much, joining us live from Providence, Rhode Island --

(CROSSTALK)

BURNS: Thank you.

GORANI: -- with his analysis on this fast-moving story in Libya; extremely significant developments in that country and in Tripoli particularly, with rebels advancing into the capital.

We can only imagine what it's like right now inside of Libya. A resident joins me with his perspective. His name is Abdelmolah Shamsiddin; he joins us now from Benghazi. You are in Benghazi, correct, in eastern Libya?

ABDELMOLAH SHAMSIDDIN, DIRECTOR FOR MEDIA RELATIONS, TRANSITIONAL NATIONAL COUNCIL: Yes, ma'am. Hello Hala. How are you?

GORANI: Hi there. Great. Thanks for being with us. What is it like in Benghazi right now?

SHAMSIDDIN: It's like New Year's celebrations, literally. Yes. We're getting -- we're getting reports coming in right now that -- first of all under directive for the media and communications for the National Transitional Council, and I'm getting reports right now that -- that Gadhafi himself is being captured on his way out towards Tunisia.

I still have to confirm this, but I'm getting this right now from my sources that he has been captured.

GORANI: All right. Well, just to tell -- I need to underline one thing to our viewers. We have not been able to confirm that. We've seen those reports as well --

(CROSSTALK)

SHAMSIDDIN: Sure.

GORANI: -- that Moammar Gadhafi has been captured. We have in no way confirmed that. We have heard from the revolutionary groups and from the opposition that Saif al-Islam Gadhafi has been captured including Sabi Gadhafi (ph) and we've heard also from them that they've given assurances they will be treated well. Is that something that the opposition that the rebel movement can -- can guarantee?

SHAMSIDDIN: Surely. We've been -- we've been, you know, telling all the -- the fighters all along from the very beginning that they're to respect all human rights regarding the capture of any prisoners and even the mercenaries.

Certainly the inner circle of Gadhafi and his family was -- will both, will all receive due process of law, and will receive their full rights. We don't want any additional bloodshed unnecessarily.

Certainly they will all face legal charges sooner or later, but they will have their judicial rights. This is part of what we are also, you know, aspiring to have in a democratic society here; a free and a fair trial. So this, they will receive their -- due process.

GORANI: All right. Tell us more about the celebrations in Benghazi. What are people saying tonight in eastern Libya? It was a -- it was a much harder fight in eastern Libya. I mean, it was certainly longer. It went really at lightning speed in western Libya when Zawiya was captured. SHAMSIDDIN: Yes.

GORANI: Give me a sense of the -- of the mood right now in -- in Benghazi.

SHAMSIDDIN: Well like I said there is -- right now, it's a celebratory mood. Everybody is now celebrating this final crowning of this revolution, if you will, and that is the liberation of the capital. Now, imagine most of the areas that are still to be liberated will soon just -- the Gadhafi regime, will --

GORANI: All right. Abdelmolah Shamsiddin, I think that Skype connection just froze up on us.

He is speaking to us from Benghazi. He's the director for media relations I believe is his title for the Transitional National Council, the revolutionary, the opposition movement in Libya. These rebels who seem to have captured so many neighborhoods in Tripoli, the capital of Libya, their big prize that they've been fighting for months for, with the help of NATO air strikes there. And we're hearing reports of celebrations in the main square in Tripoli; this, of course, the main square where Moammar Gadhafi himself was addressing supporters, parts of Tripoli where Moammar Gadhafi was brandishing his green book.

This is a man who's ruled Libya for 42 years. This very well could be the last few hours of his reign in Libya.

We're going to take a short break. When we come back a lot more on our breaking news story; we'll be right back.

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GORANI: Breaking news out of Libya: we are hearing reports that rebels have entered Green Square. To put it in perspective for you, this is like Times Square in Tripoli. You're seeing images of Saif al-Islam Gadhafi, one of the sons of Moammar Gadhafi. And rebel officials say two of Moammar Gadhafi's sons have been captured.

You're seeing images of rebel advances into the city. The rebels say they are now in control of most of parts of the capital; most of parts of the capital Tripoli, that illusive prize that was, it seemed -- and I'm using the past tense -- under the control of Moammar Gadhafi forces. But if Green Square is now under the control of rebels, this is extremely significant. This is the Place de la Tulle (ph) in Paris, it's Times Square in New York. This is extremely symbolic, and it is where Moammar Gadhafi gave one of his speeches to his supporters saying he would never surrender.

The government, itself, is conceding parts of the city are no longer under its control and it also says that it was a bloody battle over the last 12 hours. That 1,300 people have been killed. Moammar Gadhafi, as I said, vowing to fight to the end.

But then there are reports that essentially security forces don't think the fight is worth it. That they are surrendering.

With me now is Sameh Abdelaziz; he's an Egyptian American who's lived in Libya. And we were talking about Green Square. It is, really, the center of Tripoli.

SAMEH ABDELAZIZ, EGYPTIAN-AMERICAN WHO HAS LIVED IN LIBYA: It is. Now I remember. I remember the day that I was living in Libya when they actually created overnight the Green Square. The way it was created, they actually destroyed a bunch of buildings and started painting the ground green and this became the center of the revolution.

Of course, the people that lived there found overnight that they had to find somewhere else to live. But it is another symbol of the type of government that Gadhafi provided over the last 40 years.

GORANI: And it's very unusual -- you use the word "symbol", it's extremely important to use that word in some cases especially in the Arab world.

ABDELAZIZ: Exactly.

GORANI: Because in the Arab world you have the cult of personality as far as dictatorships are concerned and Green Square and other squares -- you can to Syria, you can go to Libya, it's all the same; Giant posters of the leader and also sculptures and statues that are erected to honor the leader. And those things come down symbolically. We saw it with Saddam Hussein.

ABDELAZIZ: Absolutely. Absolutely -- very, very important. This is -- big part of what the Arab world will have to face in the next month and years, probably is start this institution-type governing instead of these symbols that you are referring to correctly.

GORANI: And institution-building is not something you can take a city in 24 hours. You can't build institutions in 24 hours.

ABDELAZIZ: That's always the challenge, yes.

GORANI: The Arab world is a region that is not used to democracy. I mean free political expression has been suppressed a long time. So it's difficult.

ABDELAZIZ: It is difficult, Hala, but we always -- I think we always forget that the human nature is not that different. That people in America -- would love to have their freedom; they appreciate it. People all over the world have the same emotions and the same -- the same looking forward to the future. Now they might have the opportunity to exercise it at best.

GORANI: All right. Sameh Abdelaziz, thanks very much; always great having the perspective of a man from the Arab world -- you're Egyptian originally -- reacting to all of this along with your --

ABDELAZIZ: It's wonderful.

GORANI: -- along with your, I suppose, your community here in the U.S.

ABDELAZIZ: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you very much for the invite.

GORANI: Thank you.

ABDELAZIZ: It's pleasure.

GORANI: Ok. A pleasure. Thank you.

ABDELAZIZ: Thank you.

GORANI: We're going to be right back with a lot more on our breaking news story out of Libya. We'll speak with our Ben Wedeman as well about what's happening in that country. He's covered that country extensively over the years.

We'll be right back.

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GORANI: Welcome back to our breaking news out of Libya. Rebel forces are pouring into Tripoli right now. The rebels claim that two of Moammar Gadhafi's sons have been captured.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get back. Get back. Get back.

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GORANI: This is Sky News video from Tripoli. People chanting on the streets that Gadhafi needs to go. Libya is free. A short time ago a spokesman for the Libyan government called for immediate negotiations and a halt to the rebel assault.

We are hearing reports that have been confirmed now that the rebels have taken over Green Square. This is them on the way to Tripoli, in western Libya. Rebel forces say they are now in control of most parts of the capital. This could be the end of the road for the rebels who fought very hard over the last few months to make it into Tripoli.

The government itself is conceding that parts of the city are no longer under control. It also says it was a deadly battle overnight and says that 1,300 people have been killed over the past 12 hours. And you're seeing this rebel army with their mismatched -- with their mismatched clothing and their mismatched vehicle convoys barreling into Tripoli and today celebrating symbolically in the middle of Green Square in the Libyan capital.

Now, NATO says Gadhafi's regime is crumbling. Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi meanwhile is calling on the people of his capital city to purge it of rebel fighters. It doesn't sound, at least at this stage as though many are listening to Moammar Gadhafi, and what he has to say. My colleague Ben Wedeman has reported extensively from inside Libya and he's is in Cairo, Egypt now, this country there to the east. So, Ben, I've got to ask you about Moammar Gadhafi. We're not sure where he is. We're hearing from the rebels that two of his sons have been arrested, and we're just hearing of celebrations in central Tripoli.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, clearly he's keeping a very low profile. We are -- just a little while ago, he was making some sort of intermittent broadcast addressed to the nation on Libyan TV, but right now I'm watching Libyan state TV, and it seems to be experiencing some sort of interference with the signal.

Now, we've seen various reports that he's gone to Algeria. That he's been captured. It's not at all clear where he is. Of course, there are still areas of the country where he might be welcomed. For instance, in the town of Sirte, to the east of Tripoli, that's his hometown. That's traditionally been a very loyalist town. The city of Sabha in the southern central Sahara region of Tripoli as well has been sympathetic to Gadhafi.

So, not at all clear where he's going to go, but he really doesn't have a lot of places he can flee to at this point. He's surrounded in Tripoli and it seems that the rebels are just getting closer and closer to taking over the entire city -- Hala.

GORANI: Ben, stand by for a minute. I'm going to get back to you. We have on the line Luis Moreno Ocampo; he's a chief prosecutor for the International Criminal Court. Just a reminder to viewers, on June 27th of this year, the ICC issued an arrest warrant against Moammar Gadhafi.

We're not sure, Mr. Ocampo, where Moammar Gadhafi is right now, but what is the position of the ICC now with regards to the Libyan leader? What is the next step?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO, INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT (via telephone): There are three out of eleven in the Libya case, one is against Moammar Gadhafi, but another one is against Saif Gadhafi and the last one is al-Senussi.

We understand, we have confirmation sources confirming that our information, that Saif was arrested, and that's very important news and we are planning tomorrow to have the transitional authorities how to manage the issue, because normally Saif should be transferred to the International Criminal Court. The crimes committed by Saif are crimes against humanity.

So, the crimes against Libyans will affect the entire world and that's why International Criminal Court intervened. And that's why we believe it's very important that he was arrested and we'll discuss tomorrow the transitional authorities, how to manage to surrender him to the International Criminal Court.

GORANI: So the plan is tomorrow to discuss with the transitional authorities the transfer of Saif al-Islam Gadhafi, one of the sons of Moammar Gadhafi to The Hague. Is that correct?

OCAMPO: Exactly. Exactly. Because out of warrant pending against Saif, for his participation in crimes against humanity against Libyan people since February 2011.

GORANI: So the discussion is tomorrow. Is there any timeline that is emerging in all of this?

(CROSSTALK)

OCAMPO: No, the issue now is -- the International Criminal Court investigated these three persons. We have evidence Moammar and Saif and al-Senussi, who was the head of the intelligence were the most responsible for the crimes committed and that -- these are the persons who should appear before the judges of the International Criminal Court. And the leader (INAUDIBLE) has to be tried, how to manage the other cases.

For instance, we have another warrant for Mohammad -- the other son, the eldest son of Gadhafi, who apparently also is captured. So that is not the person to be transferred to the agency and that's why that is on a different discussion for the transitional government. How to manage other cases -- what they decide how to manage this (INAUDIBLE).

Saif and Moammar Gadhafi and al-Senussi are -- have been surrendered to the agency.

GORANI: Can I ask you. The transitional authorities, have they assured you that Saif al- Islam is being treated well? Have they told you where he is being held in anticipation of his transfer to the Hague?

OCAMPO: No. He (INAUDIBLE) talk to them tonight. I received confidential information from different sources confirming that he was arrested and, that is also public information now so no, we are planning to talk tomorrow with the (INAUDIBLE) authorities how to manage the problem.

GORANI: All right. Luis Moreno-Ocampo, the chief prosecutor for the International Criminal Court joining us live from the Hague, some very important information there with the hope that the transitional authorities in Libya will be able to work with the ICC. Work out a plan for the transfer of one of the sons of Moammar Gadhafi. An arrest warrant was issued at the ICC for Saif Islam Gadhafi. No confirmation on the whereabouts of Moammar Gadhafi. We'll continue to follow this story. We'll be right back.

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GORANI: Welcome back, everyone. If you're just joining us, this is a decisive chapter in the battle for Tripoli. Perhaps even the final chapter. Rebels have taken over Green Square in the center of Tripoli. They have, in fact, renamed it Martyr's Square. You're seeing some of the images of young women there celebrating the "V" for victory sign and we're seeing also some fires being lit and the square filled with people who are celebrating the apparent defeat of Moammar Gadhafi forces in Tripoli.

I say the apparent defeat, because it is still the dead of night. It is a little past 1:30 a.m. in Tripoli. It is still a big question, what will happen when the sun rises in the Libyan capital? Will those forces loyal to Moammar Gadhafi fight the rebels who were advancing deeper and deeper into Tripoli, or will forces, as we've heard reports, many reports out today, surrender? Will some of them just take off their military uniforms, put on their civilian clothes and melt back into the population because they think the fight isn't worth it.

Rebel officials also say that two of Moammar Gadhafi's sons have been captured. Rebel forces say they are now in control of most parts of the capital. Importantly, Saif Islam Gadhafi, who has been captured by rebel forces, against whom an arrest warrant was issued. I just spoke with the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court. He told me he hopes to speak tomorrow with the transitional authority on the transfer of Saif al Islam Gadhafi, one of the most public faces of the Gadhafi regime back to the Hague. I say back to the Hague. In fact, it would be his first trip to the Hague and perhaps even a one- way ticket.

You're seeing there images from a little bit earlier of these rebel forces barreling towards the Libyan capital. We were hearing from our Sara Sidner as well that they were full of enthusiasm that morale was high, that they felt that this was the decisive time for the opposition forces who for the last several months have been fighting to take Tripoli. The government as far as its concerned said it was a bloody battle for Tripoli. That 1,300 people have been killed over the past 12 hours.

Ben Wedeman is still on the line with us from Cairo, and he joins me now on the phone. Ben, we all remember these very scary images of you when you were in western Tripoli with your colleagues there and came under fire by Gadhafi forces. And this really was sort of incrementally really seeing back and forth, back and forth, these rebel fighters try to make it to Tripoli. Tonight it has happened. What are your thoughts?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (ON THE PHONE): Well, certainly it was a long process, and some Libyans told me that, in fact, it was a blessing in disguise, this long, sometimes it's very difficult back and forth battle between the regime and the rebels. They said that the six months have allowed them to become better organized. Certainly they've gained a lot of battlefield experience that they simply did not have at the very beginning.

I remember shortly after Benghazi fell, traveling westward in the direction of Tripoli, and discovering that people were so busy celebrating the ouster of Gadhafi's forces from Benghazi, that they weren't even thinking in terms of a military fight in which they would have to essentially battle against the forces of the regime. There was an expectation very early on that the regime would simply collapse from within, but we saw that it was able to re-establish a certain amount of order to put up something of a fight, but gradually the rebels were better trained, better armed, better organized, and tonight you're seeing the result of that in Tripoli.

GORANI: And maybe we can put up these images of Green Square. I don't know if you're familiar with Tripoli, but I remember going there a few years ago, and in all of these Arab regimes where dictators are in charge or have been in charge for decades it is truly the cultive personality, these squares with statues of them and posters of them and then you see these scenes of young people celebrating the fall of the tyrant, so to speak. And, really, we are witnessing history. Ben.

WEDEMAN: Certainly we are. And, of course, these are scenes that we've seen elsewhere. We saw them in Tunisia. We saw them in Egypt, where the edifice of dictatorship that everybody thought was so permanent, so unmovable is really quite fragile. A bit like that statue of Saddam in the (INAUDIBLE) square in Baghdad, which turned out to be hollow. Most of these regimes have a very intimidating facade of security, of secret police, but, really, when the people push back and try to topple them, they discover, they're sort of paper tigers. Hala?

GORANI: All right. Thanks very much, Bed Wedeman, our senior international correspondent and one of our key correspondents on these Arab uprising that had been sweeping the region there. As we continue to watch history unfold with rebels reaching Tripoli, penetrating deep into the Libyan capital. This could be the last chapter for Moammar Gadhafi. We'll be right back.

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GORANI: We continue to follow our breaking news in Libya tonight. Rebel forces are pouring into Tripoli right now. The rebels are claiming that two of Moammar Gadhafi's sons have been captured. They also say they're now in control of most parts of the capital. The Libyan government as far as it's concerned says 1,300 people have been killed over the past 12 hours.

Let's bring in Hisham Melham, the Washington bureau chief for Al Arabiya Television. Thanks for joining us. Your thoughts tonight as you watched these rebel forces penetrate deep into Tripoli. They've taken over Green Square and in fact they've renamed it Martyrs' Square.

HISHAM MELHAM, AL-ARABIYA WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF: You know, Hala, we may be witnessing the last hours of the long Libyan good-bye. Just think of it this way. Moammar Gadhafi took over when Nixon was at the White House. He survived Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 42 and almost three years of Obama. But he did not survive Obama. That gives you an idea of the long nightmare that the Libyans now could finally see its end. And because he was different than Ben Ali in Tunisia and Mubarak, it is unfortunate that this, you know, his demise involve NATO and really ended up shattering an already divided society in Libya.

GORANI: You know, I do have to put this in perspective, perhaps for people who haven't been following the Libya story as closely as you have, but many people who have covered the Arab world, including myself, truly didn't think that they would really live to see this.

MELHAM: Absolutely. I mean, many of us, you know, sometimes, despaired Saddam would remain forever, and that Ali Abdullah Saleh will remain forever and that this man who ruled solely for 42 years and destroyed a country that should have been probably the most advanced on the African continent. It is amazing. But, again, you know, historians would debate whether the uprising in Libya would have succeeded without international intervention and NATO military intervention. But that's the unfortunate reality.

You know, many people wondered sometimes if Saddam was around when the uprising in Tunisia and Egypt began whether the Iraqi people could bring him down alone. And we are watching the same thing in Syria now where you have another despot brutally oppressing his own people.

GORANI: Right. It's different. That's always important to underline from one country to the next.

MELHAM: Absolutely.

GORANI: What the military does. How the regime cracks down or doesn't crack down. Hisham , if you could just stand by for just a moment. We're going to take a short break on CNN and we'll be right back with more of our conversation with Hisham Melham in Washington. Stay with us.

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GORANI: Welcomes back, if you're just joining us, everyone. Breaking news from Libya. Five months into the NATO air strike campaign, Libyan rebels are fighting inside Tripoli. Rebel officials say that two of Moammar Gadhafi's sons have been captured including this, one of the most public faces of the regime, Saif Al Islam Gadhafi. The rebels say they're now in control of most parts of the capital. This is them driving on the coastal highway leading them to Tripoli.

The government itself is conceding that parts of the city are no longer under its control, and, in fact, we are receiving images from Green Square, one of the central squares in Tripoli and it was one of the areas that was the symbol of the Moammar Gadhafi regime and you see from these Getty images on your screens is now the scene of celebrations in the Libyan capital, with people celebrating what they are saying now perhaps too soon, perhaps not, is the end of the regime of Moammar Gadhafi. A man many of them call a tyrant. A man many of these people say was the only one taking advantage and profiting from the riches of Libya.

Now, the government itself is saying that the battle was bloody. That over 1,300 people were killed over the last 12 hours. Hisham Melham is the Washington bureau chief for Al-Arabiya Television and we're talking about history here unfolding before our eyes. First Tunisia, then Egypt. Now we're seeing Libya. How significant is Libya in the grand scheme of things?

MELHAM: This is extremely important. I was just thinking that the fall of Gadhafi will embolden the Syrian uprising. Because if it's done in Libya, it could be done also in Syria. A change in Libya will help tremendously the two important countries that where the whole uprising wave began. Tunisia in the east, in the west and Egypt to the east. Both Tunisia and Egypt were hurt because of the Libyan uprising, because of the migration of labor from those two countries back to Libya, Tunisia and Egypt and new political order in Libya will relieve both of these countries which suffered a lot when Gadhafi was in power in Tripoli.

So that is significant because it could change the political alignment in the whole north African region and as I said, it will have repercussions on the Syrian uprising and on the imminent situation too. As we say, you know, another Arab despot bites the dust.

GORANI: Right. Syria might be a bit tougher though as we've discussed in the past. Certainly the rebels benefited from the NATO air strike campaign militarily. We'll see politically what happens. We'll see what the Libya of tomorrow will look like soon enough.

Hisham Melham, thanks so much, the Washington Bureau chief for Al- Arabiya. We'll be right back with reaction from the U.S. State Department to all of the unfolding developments out of Libya. Stay with us.

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GORANI: Welcome back, everyone. If you're just joining us, Libyan rebels have taken the battle to Tripoli. In fact, I think in some cases we can safely say they have taken Tripoli. Rebel officials say two of Moammar Gadhafi's sons have been captured. Rebel forces say they now control most parts of the capital. The big question going forward of course is will they meet resistance at some point?

It is now almost 2:00 in the morning in Tripoli. You're seeing images here of Green Square, that large square in the center of Tripoli. This is where we've heard Moammar Gadhafi give speeches, brandishing his green book. Well, the square is now filled with Gadhafi opponents and rebels say they've in fact renamed it, it's not Green Square anymore, they say it is called Martyr's Square.

The government, for its part, came out on television a few hours ago through its spokesperson, Musa Ibrahim, saying that the battle has killed 1,300 people over the last 12 hours. The U.S. State Department is watching developments in Libya saying, "Gadhafi's days are numbered." Well it appears as though Gadhafi's "hours" may be numbered.

CNN foreign affairs correspondent Jill Dougherty joins me now from Washington. What are we hearing from the State Department right now, Jill?

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Hala, as you said, they're watching this very, very carefully, very closely. Of course the White House, President Obama's getting briefed on this. Secretary of state Hillary Clinton is getting briefed on it. And it really is striking that just go back, rewind a week or two ago when the narrative was really that the rebels were divided, they couldn't get their act together, the U.S. was encouraging them to do that, and now we're seeing what's going on.

There is a senior state department official, Jeff Feltman, assistant secretary of state. He is in the rebel stronghold of Benghazi. That's another indication of how carefully they're watching this. And in the statement that they issued, things in a way that they've said before but now they have new significance. One, we encourage the TNC, the transitional national council, to prepare and plan for a post- Gadhafi Libya. That now is crucial because not only are they watching the fighting and the movement, but they're watching what happens after. If Gadhafi does go down, then what? Can the rebels and the opposition now take over the TNC that they've been working with? Can they pull it off? Create a government and begin to create this post- Gadhafi situation?

GORANI: And it's always a tricky question in the Arab world, how much involvement from the United States politically in the post-Gadhafi Libya. We've got to take a quick break, but Jill Dougherty is standing by with the rest of our reporters across Libya and the world for the latest on this breaking news story out of Libya. Is it the end of the road for Moammar Gadhafi, the man in charge of Libya for 42 years? We know his son is in custody. The International Criminal Court is going to discuss his transfer to the Hague. It certainly is history unfolding before our eyes in Libya.

We're going to take a short break as w break as we leave you with these images of the rebel advance toward the Libyan capital.

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