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Heavy Battles Rage Around Moammar Gadhafi's Compound; Rebels Claim Gadhafi Compound Captured

Aired August 23, 2011 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: Live from Studio 7, I'm Suzanne Malveaux.

Want to get you up to speed for Tuesday, August 23rd.

We are seeing black smoke and outright confusion that's hanging over Tripoli today. These are live pictures near Moammar Gadhafi's compound. There have been heavy battles raging around this building, along with the airport and the hotel used by foreign journalists. Carloads of people have been streaming out of the Libyan capital.

Want to bring in retired Major General James "Spider" Marks. He is the former commander of the U.S. Army Intelligence Center.

And if you could, tell us about what you are watching, what you are seeing. What do you make of the pictures and the sound here? Does it look in fact like you have NATO, with the low-level flying that is taking place, bombing Gadhafi's compound?

MAJ. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Suzanne, what you see is obviously a representation of chaos and confusion on the ground. The fact that civilians are fleeing, coming out of Tripoli, should not be surprising.

The rebels are about to force Gadhafi's complete departure in some way. That may take hours, that may take days. We still could be a week or so away. But that type of confusion of what happens next gets folks very, very nervous.

And they've got the opportunity now to get out of town, and you're going to see them get out of town and let this thing kind of settle out. Then they can come back in.

I think you'll see a reverse after there's been some conclusion. And there's got to be a determination of what that looks like. It's not necessarily going to be Gadhafi's head on a pike. It could be, but I don't expect that.

But what you don't hear is updates on a routine basis -- at least we're not hearing those -- from NATO. What that tells you is they are hunkered down and they are focused in on the very final tasks, very precision strikes, in support of the rebels, very, very aggressive final steps in order to ensure that this thing doesn't last for too much longer. There's got to be a conclusion at this point. MALVEAUX: And General, what would be the conclusion? What would NATO want to do? You said very specific strikes. Would they want to hit that compound, around the compound? Would they have been able to identify very specifically where Gadhafi is holed up?

MARKS: I'm not certain that they know very specifically where he is holed up. I'm sure they have a target list that has some very specific locations of where he could be, and that there's been a very aggressive intelligence campaign not only through surveillance capabilities and national systems, but also national systems on the ground, human intelligence, sources that are a part of the rebel forces, as they get closer and closer to those various targets where Gadhafi could be, and zeroing in on them. I would tell you that the activity around the compound would tell you that it seems pretty likely that that could be where he is right now, and that that's why this effort, very pointedly and very aggressively, is taking place.

MALVEAUX: When you look at these pictures, how long do you think that this kind of battle can ensue? Do you think that this is something that would be wrapped up fairly quickly? When you take a look at the smoke, we know it's coming from the compound. We don't have a lot more information about it except for knowing that NATO has done some low-level flying. But we don't know exactly what is taking place there from our vantage point.

Do we have a sense that this is going to play out for hours or days? Or does this look like this is the end of the regime?

MARKS: You know, Suzanne, history can tell us a lot about this. And even the most disciplined forces, when they get into this type of combat, this type of urban, very close-quartered, very compartmentalized combat, it is exceptionally draining, because you're not only physically engaged, you're intellectually engaged absolutely at every moment, because you have such very limited sense of what you can pick up.

And your primary certain is for your buddy, that guy on your left and your right. And that is extremely draining in this type -- it is under any circumstances, but in this type of an environment, extremely draining. So you would anticipate, even with a disciplined force, that this should conclude within a short order of a couple of days. I can't anticipate this going on much beyond that, simply because I think the rebel force will just dissipate, try to have to come back and regroup and try again.

MALVEAUX: Major, I want you to hang on, if you will.

I want to bring in our own Sara Sidner, who's in Tripoli, who's on the ground.

Sara, can you give us a sense of where you are in relation to the pictures that we're seeing here, this compound that looks like black smoke is emerging from it, that perhaps it has been the target of recent strikes?

SARA SIDNER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We are very, very close to --

MALVEAUX: I'm sorry, Sara, I can't hear you. Can you hear me?

Have we lost this connection?

I'm not sure I have you.

I think we've lost Sara Sidner.

I want to go back to General Spider Marks.

If you can -- and we were trying to reach Sara Sidner, who is very close to that compound. You were saying that you think this is something that would play out within days. What needs to happen in order for Gadhafi to go down?

MARKS: Well, as we've stated before, somebody needs to shoot him in the face or -- and I don't know that there's an alternative. There's no nation that has said we'll accept him. He's already lost that opportunity. That door is completely slammed shut.

I'm confident if the rebels took him, he would end up being shot in the face. So I think Gadhafi is going to be identified as a dead body, or somebody is not going to find him because he's buried underneath some rubble after some building has collapsed on him. And we won't figure that out until there's been a forensics dig.

I'm not trying to be flip here, Suzanne, but I think he has essentially established one alternative -- he's going to die.

MALVEAUX: Tell us a little bit more about the compound there. We understand that there is a hotel where a lot of international journalists have been staying, and there have been reports that, possibly, he could be in one of those tunnels underneath that hotel.

Do we know whether or not in fact he is at that compound?

MARKS: Well, I would think -- I don't know that, certainly, but it wouldn't be surprising at all. He has to be someplace where he knows he's protected, he's among his friends, his loyalists. That is certainly the case in one of his compounds. So that's point one.

Point two is, if that's the case, then they have protected that thing over the course of years. They have made that thing a bunker within a bunker, so you know he's in some compound underground being protected. That makes the most sense, and that's why it's probably where all the activity is right now.

MALVEAUX: All right.

I understand we have Sara Sidner, who is on the phone in Tripoli.

Sara, can you hear me?

SIDNER: Yes, I can hear you now. MALVEAUX: Can you tell me what is taking place from your vantage point? Tell us where you are in relation to this compound, where we're seeing this smoke emerge.

SIDNER: We are very close (INAUDIBLE) where you're seeing all the smoke and you're also hearing booms. We had to just take cover.

We are also having to get out of the way because we can actually hear the bullets flying past our heads that are coming into our area. Large blasts going on now.

Residents of Tripoli are definitely not safe, especially in this area near the Gadhafi compound. We see rebels going back and forth.

We have to be very careful, because there are apparently snipers in the area. People are all standing up against buildings, looking around corners.

There are a few residents in the area. And right now I am looking towards a makeshift (INAUDIBLE) that they have placed in this neighborhood. This neighborhood is known to be partly a pro-Gadhafi neighborhood, if you can call it that.

People are ducking. People are tense here. But the situation is still an extreme one in the capital of Tripoli.

MALVEAUX: Sara, please be careful. If you need to go, let us know. We want to make sure, first and foremost, that you are actually safe.

From what you can tell, who actually has those weapons in their hands? Who is firing? Are those the rebels? Are those the Gadhafi loyalists? Does it looks like an even match?

What's taking place?

SIDNER: We know that they are being (INAUDIBLE) right now. I see men that have what appear to be perhaps shrapnel wounds, because we're getting familiar with what those wounds sounds like. So this fight is on.

But this neighborhood is definitely the center of where the fight is. This is what we're hearing, all of the artillery and all of the blasts and gunfire.

We are very, very concerned also about the potential of snipers being in some of these homes. I even see a 7-year-old boy that we just talked to who is holding a gun, and it's larger than he is, standing. He's in charge of the house, he says now, because his father is fighting.

MALVEAUX: Can you see any of those snipers on the rooftops, these snipers that are behind the windows that you are talking about?

SIDNER: No. Yes, we are looking at all of the buildings. We do not see any snipers on the buildings ourselves, but the general rule is that if you can see them, they can see you. And we don't really want to be in that situation.

We're trying to stand behind buildings, for example. We're just right now seeing a car pass. The guy -- the rebel has an RPG he's holding on his shoulder. So we're seeing all sorts of different kinds of weapons, way more weapons than we saw in the last couple of days, most of these guys holding AK-47s. Now we're seeing some of the hard- core weapons, the trucks that have welded weapons on them, large guns and cannons.

This is definitely an urban site in the middle of a city very near to Gadhafi's compound and surrounding Gadhafi's compound.

MALVEAUX: Sara, you just told us there was a 7-year-old boy who you got to know who you just passed who had -- let's just take a listen.

What are we listening to, Sara? What are we hearing?

SIDNER: You are hearing loud blasts. Again, that is coming from around Bab al-Aziziya, where the Gadhafi forces are expected to be. That is where the fighting is going back and forth.

And like I told you, we're not just hearing outgoing, we are definitely hearing incoming. Hold on.

That was much closer to us than before. The fighting seems to be getting closer to us, so we're going to have an assessment here safety-wise as to whether we want to stay in the area or get out.

We do see a lot of fighters who are sort of coming and roaming around these streets. And to be honest, it's hard to see around corners here. This is a very tight-knit neighborhood.

You have streets that are actually not paved. They're dirt streets. So, as we're looking around some of them, you really feel like you're in a situation where you can't tell exactly what you're dealing with until you turn a corner. Not a great situation to be in for anyone at this point in time.

MALVEAUX: Sara, again, if you need to go, if you need to leave, if you need to escape, please do so. Your safety is of the utmost importance here. There's nothing more important than that. So please let us know.

You're on the ground. You are hearing and you know just how close this gunfire is.

Can you give us a sense -- are you pulling back at this time? Are you staying put?

SIDNER: I'm standing up against a wall. We've decided that -- we're standing up against a wall. We have -- a couple of us are now going a little bit closer to this clinic.

(INAUDIBLE) is going into the clinic to see what kind of injuries there are. There are definite injuries. There are women inside (INAUDIBLE) seems to have a bullet wound. Another one looks like shrapnel wounds. They're trying to treat these men with whatever -- in what looks like a house. The women here are doing --

MALVEAUX: Sara, can you hear me?

SIDNER: Yes, I can hear you.

MALVEAUX: You were saying that you saw a woman with a bullet hole and another woman with shrapnel. I'm assuming that these are just Libyan civilians who have been caught in the crossfire, that these are not soldiers, that these are not people who are part of this fight. Is that right?

SIDNER: These are definitely soldiers. I can see from what they have on, even their guns are lying up against the bed. I cannot get too far into this because it's so busy here. All of the women that are -- some of them are nurses -- are kind of standing, trying to treat these men.

Let me just quickly look in the window where I am to see what I can see. Yes, some of them are very, very young, but they're yelling, "God is great!" Their weapons are propped up on the side of the wall.

So it appears that these are people that are in the fight that have come to this area. This is a known clinic on the corner. They were saying, yes, there's a clinic there, there's a clinic there, go see what's happened.

So if there are any civilian injuries, I'm not seeing them just yet. But I cannot get all the way into this building that's here. Once I do, I'll try to give you an update on that.

MALVEAUX: Thank you, Sara.

We want to welcome our international viewers, who are also joining us.

Sara Sidner, on the ground there in Tripoli, as we see the smoke billowing from outside, perhaps inside the compound of Moammar Gadhafi. And Sara Sidner, very close to this compound, making her way through the neighborhood.

And Sara, if you would -- we have the international audience joining us -- again describe where you are, what you're seeing, what you're hearing.

SIDNER: All right. So we are in the neighborhood of Bab al- Aziziya, which is where Gadhafi has his large compound. It is where the massive firefight has been going on.

The fighting has been extremely intense today, very different than just 24 hours ago, when we were in the city, roaming the city. What we're seeing right now where we are is we are on dirt streets --

MALVEAUX: Sara, can you hear us? Are we still connected? Can you hear us, Sara?

I want to go to General Spider Marks, if we can.

We've been listening to Sara Sidner. You've been listening to her as well. It looks like a very tense and dangerous situation at this time.

As someone who has a very intense understanding of the military, in your experience, what is taking place?

MARKS: Suzanne, what you are seeing is, first of all, Sara is being extremely courageous, and your cautions to her are great. My recommendation is she needs to settle someplace where she can communicate with you guys and give her a good sense. Let this thing play in front of her. And your cautions are absolutely spot on.

So God bless her. I hope she's going to be OK.

It's complete chaos, is what you see. I can tell you that Gadhafi's forces are probably in blue jeans, just like the rebels are in blue jeans. You've got males and females.

This fight is 360 degrees, all dimensions. It's extremely chaotic.

Sara's comment is absolutely again spot on. If you can see a sniper, he or she can see you. But you don't know that you're not looking at one as you come around the corner.

It's extremely tight quarters. Your sense of protection is about as far as you can reach your hand in front of you. So it's very, very tenuous. It's very dangerous.

Lots of fratricide. People are going to kill their buddies. People are going to wound each other who are on the same side, because you just can't tell friend from foe.

This is very, very tough fighting going on right now. And if you also have air support that is taking place, it's absolutely critical that the air/ground capabilities allow that type of precision delivery so you get away from -- you can minimize as greatly as possible the collateral damage. But a fight like this is really kind of defined by collateral damage.

It's all urbanized. And everyone who is in that city or in that area right now is in a kill zone.

MALVEAUX: General, one thing that struck me was Sara's story. She said she passed a 7-year-old boy who they got to know and meet and talk to, who is protecting his home. He was carrying a gun bigger than himself.

What does that indicate to you in terms of where we are in this war, this civil war?

MARKS: More importantly, I have to tell you, Suzanne, what that tells you is, here's this young 7-year-old kid. God bless him, and we hope he lives to see another day, but he has known nothing but this type of warfare and this type of brutality.

What type of individual is he going to be as you move forward? That's the type of concern that we have.

MALVEAUX: General, I want to bring in our Arwa Damon, who is at the Tripoli airport.

Arwa, tell us where you are in relation to Gadhafi's compound, whether or not you can see any of this that we are actually watching now.

ARWA DAMON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Suzanne, we're about 15 miles to the south of the compound, along a very vital highway. The rebels managed to take over this location yesterday at around midday. And ever since then, there's been a fairly intense attempt by Gadhafi forces to gain it back.

Just a short while ago, there was a two-pronged assault on the international airport complex, a smaller one from the south, a more intense effort concentrated from the east. Gadhafi's forces, firing a number of artillery rounds into the airport complex, and the rebels then responding, using their anti-aircraft machine guns mounted on the back of pickup trucks, also launching a barrage of what they said were missiles.

And they've been telling us that Gadhafi's forces really want to try to win back this strategic location. And I'm sure you can hear these sporadic sounds of explosions, gunfire, still ongoing. But they really want to try to win back this strategic location because it is a straight shot from here to Gadhafi's Bab al-Aziziya compound.

There are also two military bases located to the east. And then, on that main highway leading toward the capital, you have two military installations. Once is a major refueling point and the other is a fuel storage facility, two areas that Gadhafi's forces are not going to want to see fall back into rebel hands.

Now, at this particular location at the airport, rebel fighters are also just showing us various areas where Gadhafi's forces had dug in -- missiles, other kinds of weapons, hiding them underground in massive containers, really preparing themselves, the rebels say, for this fight.

MALVEAUX: Arwa, thank you. Hang with us, if you will.

I want to go to our Matthew Chance, who is inside of a hotel with other international journalists.

And Matthew, you've been really at the epicenter of much of this, having discovered one of Gadhafi's sons yesterday, Saif al-Islam, I believe, who was there at the hotel.

What is happening? What is the update in terms of who is in charge, whether or not Gadhafi is still there, and whether or not you're even able to get out of that hotel?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's a very, very difficult situation for us here at the Rixos Hotel, in that same area where all that fighting is going on around the compound of Colonel Gadhafi. We're here really in the middle of that battle, but we're behind the lines of the Gadhafi loyalists, as it were, because they control this area, as far as we're aware. We're not permitted to go outside the hotel.

And indeed, there are ferocious gunfights on the perimeter of the hotel, towards the Gadhafi compound as well. We're hearing huge explosions.

I know we have reporters there who have been telling me a bit more detail about what they can see. But from our perspective in here, it's been a real nightmare, actually.

We've been taking incoming artillery shells. We've had snipers target the hotel. The windows have been smashed by snipers, bullets, and stray bullets as well.

In the lobby of the hotel we still have Gadhafi loyalists armed with Kalashnikov rifles. Many of the journalists have taken upon themselves of course to wear body armor and helmets, and to congregate in the basement of the hotel, because it's the safest place for us to be. And, of course, with all the fighting outside, no one is allowing us to get outside and to leave this place, which is obviously at the center of these clashes now between the opposition forces and what's left of the forces of Colonel Gadhafi.

But I did meet Saif al-Islam Gadhafi last night. It had been reported of course by the rebels that he had been detained (INAUDIBLE) Tripoli. What he said took a very different tone, characteristically, perhaps, of the Gadhafis, saying that this has all been a trick that lured rebels into Tripoli, and now they have broken their back (INAUDIBLE).

They've been very defiant. They're saying that they control much of Tripoli. They're contradicting what the rebels are saying (INAUDIBLE). We're not really in a position to verify --

MALVEAUX: Sure.

CHANCE: -- which side runs which part of Tripoli at the moment, except to say that in this part of Tripoli, in the Rixos Hotel, where there a dozen (ph) (INAUDIBLE) holed up in the basement, trying to get some perspective on this conflict, this hotel still firmly in the grip of Gadhafi forces -- Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: Matthew, without putting you in danger or revealing any information that you would not like us to reveal, can you describe for us the kind of situation, the conditions that you're in now inside of this hotel?

We lost Matthew Chance.

I just want to recap very quickly. He's inside of that hotel not far from Moammar Gadhafi's compound, which you can see up in smoke.

There's fierce battles that are taking place inside of Tripoli. Our Sara Sidner, who is on the ground near a clinic very close to that compound as well. It is a very chaotic and uncertain scene.

We are going to bring more. We're going to follow this story as it develops.

We're going to take a very quick break first. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MALVEAUX: You're looking at live pictures here. This is out of Tripoli. This is right outside of the compound, Moammar Gadhafi's compound, where you can see the black smoke that is billowing there. This comes after some fierce fighting.

We have reporters who are on the ground -- Sara Sidner. We also have Matthew Chance, who's in a hotel nearby. And they have been reporting the fierce battle that is taking place as rebels are trying to overtake the capital there of Tripoli.

And Moammar Gadhafi, still, his whereabouts are unknown, as well as many of his family, his sons in the area. But we do know that we've been hearing loud explosions there in the capital city, that it is a very tense situation on the ground, that there are people who are fleeing for their lives.

In a clinic that is nearby, our Sara Sidner is reporting multiple injuries, shrapnel wounds, gunshot wounds, people who are trying to protect their homes. A 7-year-old boy with a weapon, she describes, larger than himself, standing guard over a home, as the chaos on the street breaks out.

I want to go to General James "Spider" Marks.

When you see these live pictures, when you hear these explosions, when you hear the stories of what is taking place on the ground, just how difficult is this situation now? How tense is this situation in actually trying to root out Moammar Gadhafi?

MARKS: Well, it's extremely tough. And none of this is a surprise, I think, to anyone that at this stage, it would be this difficult.

What needs to be -- we need to temper this -- at least the rebels need to -- because the next step that occurs after Gadhafi falls needs to be an embrace and a transition that welcomes all parties into what this new Libya is going to look like. And following a fight like this, it is exceptionally hard to be magnanimous and benevolent to those that you were just trying to kill five minutes before.

That's the key point. And I don't know that the rebels are up to it, I don't know that they're not up to it. But that's what the international community needs to focus in on. And very specifically, that's in the hands of NATO right now, to ensure that we don't have an immediate cathartic bloodbath that follows this very tough fight that's taking place right now.

MALVEAUX: General, what can NATO do at this point to end this fight, to either influence it one way or the other?

MARKS: Well, I don't think NATO wants to be involved in "ending it," because their fingerprint will be all over it and they'll own it. Now, frankly, they own it to a very large degree, anyway, at least the European community does. And I think the neighboring Arab communities and nations are very much stakeholders in what occurs in Libya next. But this fighting is going to play itself out. Nobody is going to jump in the middle of this and try to separate these parties at this point.

It's going to be the rebels rolling over Gadhafi's forces, and it may take hours, maybe a couple more days, to get that accomplished.

But at that point, Suzanne, there has to be some type of a force that is available immediately to put boots on the ground to ensure that you don't have a bloodbath. Despite the protestations to the opposite that this will be a gentle transition, there has to be a force that's available. Not only to keep warring parties apart, but also to get your arms around all those weapons that exist and to make sure that you've got those things protected and locked down.

MALVEAUX: General, stay with us, if you will, as we watch this.

I want to bring in our Sara Sidner, who I understand is back with us.

Sara, can you hear me? This is Suzanne.

SIDNER: I can, Suzanne. I hear you.

We are in a neighborhood very, very close to Bab al-Aziziya, where Gadhafi's compound is. We are still hearing massive blasts and lots of gunfire just down to my right here.

Let me give you a little bit of a look of the neighborhood. I'm going to move out just a little bit so that you can see down the road. Now, the blasts are coming from the right of the camera. There is a clinic down this road, a gray building. There are rebel fighters sort of standing around the building, and that's because there were people inside that building that are injured. People are coming back from this fire fight with shrapnel wounds, with bullet wounds.

We also know that there are now -- we have confirmed eight civilians who have been hit in this fight. We are hearing that there is a woman who came out of her home and was hit by sniper fire, according to a nurse inside that clinic.

The situation here in the neighborhood we're in right near the Bab al-Aziziya compound, this neighborhood's name is Gergi (ph). This is a dangerous place to be for any civilians or any rebels. And frankly, for the media, as well. But the fire fight, a very intense fight, still going on today here in Tripoli, Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: Sara, again we appreciate your courageous reporting. Again, if you need to move feel free to do so.

We saw some people walking behind you. Are those just civilians who are the neighborhood? Are they taking covered? Are they trying to protect their homes?

I understand that we have just lost the signal to Sara Sidner. She's in a neighborhood very close to a clinic, which is very close to what you're seeing there, Moammar Gadhafi's compound. The black smoke billowing from that compound.

Sara Sidner just describing what the -- the conversations that she was having with people there in that clinic, saying that there had been some civilians who've been injured in this fierce battle that is taking place on the ground between Gadhafi's loyalists and also the rebels there who have claimed at least that they have taken over 85 percent of the nation's capital. This is urban warfare that is continuing in the heart of Libya.

I want to bring back General Spider Marks. If you're still with us, to describe -- OK -- I understand -- I'm just being told now that we no longer have the General here.

But I do want to bring in my college Michael Holmes from CNN International.

Thank you for helping us to try to sort this out as we go.

Clearly this is a developing story. It's changing minute by minute. We've got folks on the ground. We also have analysts who are weighing in.

I believe we have William Cohen, former defense secretary William Cohen. Are you with us?

WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: I am.

MALVEAUX: When you see this unfold, what are you watching? What are we seeing?

COHEN: You're seeing urban warfare and the face of it, and it's ugly.

It means that there are innocent people who are being targeted and who will be injured and perhaps even killed. And it's one of the reasons why it's so difficult for the NATO countries to really become more heavily engaged at this point, because of the damage, what they call the collateral damage. That means killing innocent people, potentially.

To the extent that Gadhafi's forces try to consolidate and they gather together in one spot, well, that becomes easier for NATO then to then target them. So warfare on the streets is going to be block by block and it's going to be carried by the rebel forces on the ground with some intelligence assistance and perhaps some drones overhead, that once we get information to as to where Gadhafi forces are gathering, they can be targeted.

MALVEAUX: Do you have a sense of what our role is, the American role, and even NATO's role? Are there folks calls in, giving intelligence reports about possible targets?

COHEN: Well, I think that's to be expected, that the United States has taken a secondary, a supportive role, but that supportive role is critical in terms of providing the kind of overhead intelligence and other communications information that can help the rebel forces know exactly where they have to go, where the forces that are being gathered against them. So the role that the United States plays is crucial.

MALVEAUX: Stay with us, if you will.

I just want to reset if we can. We have an international audience that is joining us. Michael Holmes, my colleague from CNN International, as well, taking a look at the story as it unfolds, obviously.

As our correspondents have described, as the analysts look, this is an extremely tense situation. This is urban warfare. This is the possible collapse of the Gadhafi regime.

You have been there, you just came back from there. Does this surprise you what we're seeing on the ground right now?

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Yes, I've spent the last couple weeks with the western rebels who are the ones who made the big push to the coast and into Tripoli. They were very organized. They were a lot more organized than they looked on some of the television screens with that sort of mad zombie (ph) that people have talked about.

The difficulty with urban warfare is that it favors the defender, because it's home turf. Now, that's in theory. The difference with these guys, and the ones I spent time with, some of them were from the western mountains in the Foussa (ph) mountains. Most of them were. But you had a lot of rebels from different towns.

MALVEAUX: Michael I'm just getting word here that according to AFP and Reuters, they are now reporting that the rebels have captured the Gadhafi compound. That's coming from AFP Reuters. We don't have that independently confirmed.

HOLMES: That's very significant if true.

MALVEAUX: But what would that mean if they were finally actually to get Gadhafi's compound in their control?

HOLMES: It's very significant in a symbolic way unless he's there. If he's there, this all falls apart as far as the resistance goes on a significant level. There are going to be pockets of resistance. We saw this in Baghdad and I went up with the Marines and got there the day the statue came down. The next few days were chaotic. There were still pockets of resistance. There was still fighting going on. And we're likely to see that here, too.

There are going to be the diehard loyalists who are in sniper positions around the city, who are protecting their own interests in terms of their own little neighborhoods and the like and you will see fighting continue. But the compound itself, if Gadhafi is inside that, and no one knows whether that's the case or not, then it takes away the last sort of platform.

MALVEAUX: You know, Michael, I also want to bring up the fact that we're getting this from the rebels, that they've taken over this compound. But we also got from the rebels that they had captured three of Moammar Gadhafi's sons recently, and then we saw two emerge late yesterday.

Are the rebels to be trusted? Do we believe what they say here? You know these guys.

HOLMES: Yes. I like the State Department and White House term, fluid situation, because it is always fluid and it's always -- these situations, I covered two of the battle with the western rebels as they went through Takut (ph)and bir Alghan (ph). These are chaotic scenes and they may not deliberately want to mislead you, but you're getting information from different rebels who are seeing different things from different perspectives. It's not going to always be accurate, no.

I will say this, that the western rebels, when they talked to me tactically about what they were going to do, what they held, what they'd lost, they never actually led us astray, not once. It all proved to be true. And they were the ones who led the foray into Tripoli, although others have now joined them.

But, yes. The Saif al-Islam Gadhafi capture story did them no good at all in terms of credibility. Somebody came out and said, we've got him. They didn't have him, obviously, and that does not help with their credibility.

MALVEAUX: OK, Michael. I'm hearing that we've got Sara Sidner who is on the phone joining us again.

And Sara, I understand you've got some news?

SIDNER: OK. We've got an update. The rebels have made it into the compound. They are telling us they have made it into the Gadhafi compound, Bab al-Aziziya. They say they've been able to take a truck, they have it, it's sitting in front of us, they are still fighting. They're telling us they're still fighting. There's clashes inside Bab al-Aziziya.

We know, though, they have now broken into that compound, they say. They have been able to take some of the weapons off of the Gadhafi forces, but we can hear blasts, heavy fighting. Bab al- Aziziya now invaded by the rebels. That is the latest that we can give you right now from a neighborhood that is right next to Bab al- Aziziya. We are hearing this fire fight still continuing. But they are saying, the big update right now is they have gone into that compound.

HOLMES: It's a big compound, Sara, isn't it? It's not like they could walk in there and say they've got it immediately?

SIDNER: Yes. They say that they are still fighting. It is not that they have completely taken over the compound, but that they have gotten into the compound and that there is clear fighting going on right now. There's been a lot of celebrating in this neighborhood form -- you can hear Allah Akbar -- God is great. But these rebels say (AUDIO GAP) compound they are showing us right now guns that they have gotten from the compound. They are pulling out some of the trucks that they say that they have secured from Gadhafi forces. And (AUDIO GAP) in this neighborhood right now.

Whether or not they've been able to secure it (AUDIO GAP), they say no, we're still fighting, and we, ourselves, can hear blasts and gunfire going on in Bab al-Aziziya. We are that close to the compound.

MALVEAUX: Sara, can you describe what you are actually seeing around you?

SIDNER: Yes. What we see is a good number of rebel fighters who have gathered in an area. They are about to hold an impromptu press conference with us and with any other media that's in the area.

They are gathering in celebration. They say they've broken into the compound, that Gadhafi is nearly finished in their words, and that they have some of the equipment that belonged to Gadhafi forces.

In this neighborhood there is a clinic that is there, a clinic that is treating people who have been wounded. We have seen some of the wounded inside. We know that civilians, according to a clinician inside, has been hurt. At least one or two civilians have been injured after coming out of the (AUDIO GAP).

Now we're seeing a really interesting picture. (AUDIO GAP) -- we are seeing (AUDIO GAP) coming from Bab al-Aziziya. (INAUDIBLE) and they are yelling, god is great, god is great, as they come out of the compound, these words, some of the fighters inside of the compound.

So it does give us more confirmation while there is still a battle going on, that they feel like they have at least broken inside and they want to give everybody that news.

MALVEAUX: Sara, you are actually seeing some of the rebels that have been inside the compound who say that they have broken into the compound and now are yelling in victory?

SIDNER: They are yelling god is great, which is -- yes, a bit of what you might say, sort of a victory chant. But it does not mean by any means that they've completely cleared Bab al-Aziziya. We can still hear some blasts coming from Gadhafi's compound. I asked specifically one of the rebels, did you see anyone inside? Were you able to speak to anyone? Did you capture anyone? He says, no, right now we are still inside trying to secure the area.

But celebrations here, because Bab al-Aziziya has been broken into by the rebels. They have been able to storm that building. Now, we have to wait and see what kind of fire fight may lay ahead for them.

MALVEAUX: The blast that you're hearing, can you tell if those are blasts that are coming from the compound towards the rebels? Are these -- is this kind of an offensive that the rebels are engaged in, the blasts coming from the rebels?

SIDNER: Yes, the blasts are coming from the compound. We (AUDIO GAP) lots and lots of smoke billowing and now that smoke has been -- well, actually, hold on a second. There's more smoke. I can see more smoke over the sky in this neighborhood.

(AUDIO GAP) we are less than half a kilometer away now. We moved a little bit closer to try and see what we can see. But, yes. There still seems to be some sort of action going on over in Gadhafi's compound. But a major strategic move, because if they've gone into that compound, now they're going to try to clear that compound and they're not quite sure what they're going to see.

But people are literally hugging each other in the streets. They are greeting each other. Some people are crying in happiness that they've been able to get inside that compound.

HOLMES: Sara, I assume that there is still fighting going on elsewhere around the city, as well, these remaining pockets of the resistance.

What are you hearing from the rebels you're with about the capability of Gadhafi forces elsewhere?

SIDNER: We can't tell if there are -- hold on. Hold on.

We cannot tell if there are Gadhafi forces elsewhere, because where we are, there's so much action and so much activity -- hold on.

Hold on. Hold on.

There's so much action and so much activity in this neighborhood. We are not in a position to tell whether or not there is fighting in other parts of the city. We do know that earlier on there was fighting in other parts of the city. But we are not in a position to give you that information because these rebels that we're talking to were inside the compound of Bab al-Aziziya, and that is where the main fire fight has been going all day long. That is their main focus is to try and get into Gadhafi's compound. For them it would be a major victory.

Just one second. We're going to walk over and talk to someone. OK, so they have a file -- it says file number three. It's got -- hold on. It has Saadi Gadhafi's name on it and then (INAUDIBLE) name on it. These are -- hold on one second.

I'm going to have my producer (INAUDIBLE) speak to them in Arabic.

Excuse me, sir, where did he get these from? Where did he get these from? Where did he get these files from?

OK. They're telling us the files are from Bab al-Aziziya. They're inside the building --

OK, sir, can you tell me, where did you get these files?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From inside an office. From inside Bab al- Aziziya

SIDNER: OK, this is proof, they are saying, that they have been into the compound, they got into one of the offices. They've got names on them, file numbers on them, dates on them. This (INAUDIBLE) says 2005. It looks like I'm looking at some receipts here. Inside there are officials stamps that we're seeing from the Gadhafi regime just here.

And so, can we -- can we get a picture of this please, guys? Can we get a picture of this?

We're going to send you a picture shortly of the -- of the files and these are medical files from inside what was the Gadhafi.

Everyone is cheering. Everyone is celebrating.

And I'm trying to do two things at once, so I'm sorry. Trying to take picture because they're going to taking these away. There's all sorts of medical files here.

This is a very exciting moment for the rebels. They feel like they are showing us proof and they feel like they are coming to the end of this massive fire fight with the Gadhafi regime.

This is Gadhafi's wife's name, Amira (ph). -- sorry. Not Gadhafi's wife (INAUDIBLE).

Can you still hear me?

Yes, yes, Sara. Go ahead, you're running the show. Keep telling us what you're seeing and hearing from these rebels who have just come out of the Gaddafi compound.

HOLMES: And just reminding viewers that Sara has been reporting that the rebels are saying they are inside that compound. They say that they are winning that battle.

But again, and I don't know if we can bring up that animation, it's instructive to show people. This is not a small compound, this is a large compound. It will be difficult to take, there are multiple buildings in there, and a lot of open ground as well. So how well entrenched Gaddafi loyalists are there, and they have got their backs against the wall, too. I would imagine, at this point they have no real reason to give up, and got nowhere to go, Sara.

SIDNER: I'm not sure if you guys can hear me. I'm having a very difficult time hearing you.

HOLMES: We hear you, Sara. Go ahead.

SIDNER: But if you can -- OK, if you can, this neighborhood has gone wild. Rebels are congregating in the neighborhoods, screaming "a la Akbar."

Now I'm looking at files, they're bringing me more and more and more files. This one is Saif al-Islam (ph, that is the young man you saw, Gadhafi's son, who came to the -- yes, medical files of Saif Islam, the son of Gadhafi, that the rebels had said that they captured and he showed up last night and spoke with our Matthew Chance in the hotel where the international journalists are.

But now they have these files, they are saying we are going room by room, we're getting in this compound, we're trying to clear it out. They are pulling ought these files from different -- different rooms. We are literally looking at medical files of Saif al-Islam, the son of Moammar Gadhafi, so this is pretty strong proof that they have gotten into the compound and making their ways in.

MALVEAUX: And Sara, if we can, we just want to take a listen to the environment around you, where you are now, the kinds of things that you are hearing in this crowd.

SIDNER: Sure. I'm going to put the phone to the area where they're showing these files.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Saif al Islam's medical files from inside -- (INAUDIBLE).

SIDNER: You're hearing them all discussing, they're discussing with us in English that all these medical files -- just saying the same things over and over again, we have it, we have it, we're winning this fight, god is great, victory is here.

So the neighborhood (INAUDIBLE) this kind of come down, up and down. They've obviously gotten into an office there with all of the files, and you're hearing celebrations. But now the rebels have moved into a more serious mode, as they're going down the street, trying to tell everyone that we are winning this fight.

Hold on. I'm going to let you listen. They are singing now, where we are.

Hold on.

MALVEAUX: Sara, are you still with us? Can you hear us?

HOLMES: You heard there still in the background, though, there was clearly some sounds of heavy weapon impact in the distance there when she was holding the phone up. And also, just at the end there, you could you can never tell whether that's celebratory or not. You can hear AK-47s, you could hear 40.5-mm anti-aircraft guns being fired at a sustained burst there too, but difficult to tell what's celebratory and what's offensive.

MALVEAUX: She was describing a scene where you had rebels who had just entered Gadhafi's compound, very happy about the conquest that they had actually been able to -- at least it looked like they were able to get into some sort of office and had medical files of some of the Gadhafi family members, and that they were going through the streets showing others what they had found, what they had seen.

Clearly, they are in a sense optimistic, they think they have gotten a hold of this compound. It's going to be very interesting to see whether or not that makes a difference. Whether there's going to be a large firefight that's going to continue.

HOLMES: Exactly. As I say, the loyalists who are in there obviously feel that their backs are against the wall.

And it's interesting to keep pulling up this animation there and show you the size of this place. It is not small. Multiple buildings, multiple buildings to clear as well.

MALVEAUX: OK, we are going to following this story, developing story. We are going to take a very quick break. More on this warfare that is taking place in Tripoli, Libya.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MALVEAUX: We're following this breaking news story. This is out of Tripoli, Libya. This is where there has been gunfire exchanged, urban warfare that is taking place on the ground there as the rebels enter the compound of Moammar Gadhafi. They have emerged with what looks like or could be medical files, that is according to Sara Sidner, who says there is celebration and gunfire on the streets around the compound as the rebels have been able to make their way inside.

This is just a fierce battle and big questions in terms of where Moammar Gadhafi is, whether or not his regime will survive, whether or not the rebels are close to actually taking over.

Myself and Michael Holmes are here to sort all this out. We also have former defense secretary William Cohen, who is with us.

When you see this picture unfold, what are we watching? What do you make of where we are in this warfare?

COHEN: Well, it's reaching its final stages, it appears to be, at least.

The only caution I would have here as the rebels move into that compound, given what Michael had said about the size of it, they be very careful about parts of it being booby-trapped. To celebrate at this point before they have secured all the premises I think would be -- would not be wise. So I think they have to be careful as they're moving through.

If this is going to be quote, the equivalent of Custer's last stand, I would have assumed Gadhafi forces would have something in store, in surprise, for the rebels. So hopefully they will take great care and caution as they're moving through.

Ultimately, if this is the major compound, they will be looking for those tunnels that you have talked about earlier in the program, as to whether or not Gadhafi has underground exit strategy to get out of town, so to speak. Whether there are weapons stored in that compound, those tunnels under the compound. All of that will be important as they move forward today.

But I think ultimately, you mentioned the question whether the regime is going to survive. The regime can't survive. If the regime survives, then it's a defeat for the rebels, for NATO and the United States, for all of those who are concerned about what Gadhafi has done to his people over the years.

And so, I think it's a foregone conclusion that he is not going to survive and that NATO, under any circumstances, is going to do whatever it has to in order to support the rebels in their final goal.

HOLMES: I think it's probably safe, you're right, Mr. Cohen, it is over for Moammar Gadhafi, whether he had an exit strategy or not. One would imagine if he had one, he would have used it by now. Certainly, it was a very big surprise to a lot of people that we saw Saif Gadhafi wandering around yesterday, too.

You know, it's also worth remembering there are other cities that are not held by the rebels. This is not over even in terms of countrywide. His hometown of Sert still has the green flag flying over it. There are other towns outside the capital that still have Gadhafi forces fighting with rebels, but this obviously is the focus.

Mr. Cohen, I imagine that apart from intelligence, and there are planes flying over Tripoli, I can report that at the moment, apart from that sort of overflight and intel operations, how much is there that NATO can do in terms of firing on Gadhafi forces? Once there in the city, they pretty much have to hold fire, don't they?

COHEN: They do. There may be some forces from the British or French or others who are actually on the ground helping to coordinate that intelligence for the rebel forces, so they may continue to play an important role in that regard.

But as far as the heavy bombing activity, that's unlikely to take place unless there is a gathering of the Gadhafi forces in one concentrated area. That makes it more likely that they could be targeted. It may be that they are dispersed and that's the difficulty of urban warfare, you have to go door by door and street by street to take them.

But you're right to point out that all of the country is not under control of the rebels at this point. My only argument is that it's pretty clear the international community has already come down the side of the rebels, the U.N. Security Council resolution has been the basis for the support of NATO taking action to support the rebels.

So the regime may linger on for some time, but the end result is pretty clear. The handwriting is on the wall and it's not a forgery. And I think his forces will be gone, how soon remains to be determined, but I think they're finished.