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Amanda Knox Appeal Underway; Mysterious Libyan Convoy; Terror in the Dust; Worst Fire Season Gets Worse; Mitt Romney Unveils Jobs Plan; Obama Presidency and Racial Politics

Aired September 06, 2011 - 13:59   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: The winds are lighter in Texas and some evacuees are heading back into fire-ravaged neighborhood. But the worst fire season in Texas history is nowhere near over. And the damage grows by the day. This is the worst of the worst right now, Bastrop County, southeast of Austin, 30,000 acres consumed, hundreds of homes destroyed, zero containment.

This fire started Sunday, barely 48 hours ago. And already, Governor Rick Perry calls it as mean a fire as he's ever seen, and he has seen a whole lot of wildfires this year.

The Texas Forest Service counts 294 consecutive days of wildfires somewhere in that state. Not coincidentally, it's also been a year of historic drought.

So far this year, more than 3.5 million acres have burned. That's about as much land as the entire state of Connecticut. In the past 48 hours, more than 700 homes have been lost, many, many more in danger.

Now, we don't have room, actually, to list all the fires that are burning right now, or even all of the biggest ones. So we've actually just put a sampling together for you here.

If you look at Bastrop County, 30,000 acres burned. In Travis County, 6500 acres have burned, 67 homes have actually lost there. In Palo Pinto County, you can see 6,555 acres have been burned. It's almost contained, actually. That's the good news.

In Cass County, up there at the top, 7,000 acres have been burned. That isn't even close to being contained. And Grimes County, the last one there, 3,000 acres have been burned. In that fire, 20 homes have actually been lost so far.

CNN's Jim Spellman joins me now from the Bastrop blaze.

And Jim, tell us about the wind and the smoke first.

JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. You know, the wind has been calm here today. That's a real godsend for firefighters. They just need that kind of break with the cooler temperatures we've had today and the low wind to try to get some sort of handle on this fire.

It was so aggressive. Hearing you rattle off all those numbers, it's just staggering, what this state has been going through. And what's really setting this fire apart here in Bastrop is it's happened right in a populated area. Amazing, that in just about 24 hours' time, it was able to destroy almost 500 homes. It's incredible.

So they want to get out there, do everything they can while they have calm weather, to try to get at it. That's why you're seeing some smoke right now around us a little bit, is because the wind hasn't been blowing it away. That's a good sign.

For the people who had to evacuate and unfortunately lost their homes, it's staggering. And they're just trying to contemplate now what to do tonight, what to do tomorrow, and how they'll rebuild.

We caught up with the Johnson family. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHARAH JOHNSON, HOME DESTROYED BY FIRE: We just got a call from our neighbor that we needed to get out, and Claire also was getting calls from friends who live on the street saying we had to get out. And we just threw the kids and dog in the car and left.

SPELLMAN: And your home?

JOHNSON: It's gone. We hear from a neighbor who snuck back in -- we're not allowed to go back probably for a few more days to see, but a neighbor said that he saw our house and it was gone.

SPELLMAN: Claire, what's it like to go through that? What does it feel like?

CLAIRE JOHNSON, HOME DESTROYED BY FIRE: Well, right now you just can't really think anything about it. Everybody else is in the same situation. There's no self-pity. There can't be, because we're going to be better off than most, but the fact that half of our town is homeless, you can't really think of yourself right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SPELLMAN: And some other residents at another fire, the Steiner Ranch Fire on the other side, the west side of Austin, they're being allowed back into their homes this afternoon. But the sheriffs there have warned them, look, be ready to get back out again, because all these drought conditions still remain. All it takes is for the winds to pick up and a spark somewhere, and they could have to evacuate again. It's just such a long-term, ongoing problem, even when the fire behind me is put out -- Randi.

KAYE: Are some folks being allowed to get back inside their homes and their neighborhoods, at least to check the damage or maybe even move back in?

SPELLMAN: Not yet. Not until they get this fire at least to some degree contained. They just can't risk it. It was so aggressive yesterday and the day before, that they know what this fire is capable of. The last thing they need is people getting back into the path of it beforehand.

People are certainly itching to get in and try to find out more. And crews are trying to get them information. People are coming up to some of the firefighters here, showing them their address, pictures of their house on their iPhone, trying to get information. But it's just too early to do that yet -- Randi.

KAYE: Yes. And what kind of supplies, if any, are they providing to the evacuees, or maybe even the firefighters who are out there?

SPELLMAN: Well, some people are just showing up, literally looking for something as simple as a roll of toilet paper, or some power bars, some water, stuff like that. People are dropping stuff off, supplies off here, and then other people are showing up and trying to get it.

People, they almost feel bad about getting supplies, but there's nowhere -- they've lost literally everything. That family we spoke with, they're spending today trying to get new drivers' licenses and ATM cards. That's all they're left with, was literally the clothes on their back. So they have to come here to just get through the next few days.

People are so sweet here in the community, they're bringing socks, T- shirts, underwear and stuff. And people are showing up to get it here.

I'm always amazed in thee these kind of disasters, how much the community can come together and do stuff hike that. It's really amazing. You get to see the best of people in the worst of times -- Randi.

KAYE: No doubt about that. Jim Spellman, thank you very much.

(WEATHER REPORT)

KAYE: Other stories developing this hour.

Illinois may become the next state to lay off workers. "The Chicago Tribune" reports that Governor Pat Quinn will issue thousands of layoff notices this week. It also says he'll announce plans to close a number of state facilities, including a prison. State workers are expected to oppose any layoffs. A union spokesman says layoffs would violate collective bargaining agreements and a lawsuit is likely.

Quinn's budget office says that the state faces a multimillion-dollar shortfall. And unless action is taken, several agencies may run out of money by spring.

The California Supreme Court is hearing arguments today on Proposition 8, the state's ban on same-sex marriage. This is a live feed from inside the courtroom where today's proceedings are taking place.

The legal question before the court is whether or not the sponsors of Prop 8 have a right to appeal last year's federal ruling that overturned the ban. Their legal standing to appeal was called into question after former Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and then-Attorney General Jerry Brown, who is now governor, both refused to defend the ban on same-sex marriage.

The court will make a ruling within 90 days.

New York City reeling from a string of violent shootings. Authorities say three people were shot dead, two New York police officers were wounded Monday night. This is just the latest gun battle that caps off a violent Labor Day weekend. City authorities say at least 48 people were wounded by guns over the holiday weekend.

It has become the battle of the jobs plans. How your taxes, gas prices and unions could play into Mitt Romney and President Obama's plans, we'll have that for you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Jobs and the economy, those undoubtedly will be two pivotal campaign issues in the 2012 election. President Barack Obama will lay out his plan on Thursday. He gave us a little preview yesterday in Detroit yesterday.

Next up, Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney will reveal his big jobs plan in Nevada in about an hour and a half. Romney gave a sneak peek of his plan in a "USA Today" op-ed, so here is a quick breakdown of it.

Romney says his plan consists of 59 specific proposals, 10 of which he would put into action his first day in the Oval Office. The big thing is taxes. Romney wants to lower personal and corporate tax rates. He want to get rid of taxes on interest, dividends, and capital gains for middle income taxpayers.

Romney also says job creation is being held back by a big federal government and the cost of its regulations. He proposes cutting back on regulations, including eliminating the president's signature health care initiative. He also plans to push for more trade deals, which President Obama is expected to address as well.

Now, on the energy front, Romney pledges to increase energy production in the U.S., including nuclear energy, coal, gas, and oil reserves. Romney blames environmental extremism for holding the nation back.

He also suggests limiting the role of labor unions. And he says he'll push for a constitutional amendment to balance the budget.

To help put Romney's plan into context, compared to what we know about President Obama's plan, I want to bring in Lex Harris, who is the managing editor at CNNMoney.com.

Hi there, Lex. Let's talk about this.

LEX HARRIS, MANAGING EDITOR, CNNMONEY.COM: Hey, Randi. KAYE: Romney says that the contrast between Obama and himself "could not be starker." Those are his words. Now, based on what we know about Obama's plan, which really isn't much at this point, how true is that?

HARRIS: You know, there's so many similarities between the plans. I mean, President Obama, all year, has been speaking about corporate tax reform, easing up on regulations, or at least making them smart. So, at a very high level, you're hearing a lot of the same points from both the Democrats and the Republicans.

KAYE: Do you see a big difference --

HARRIS: And I'll tell --

KAYE: Sorry. Go ahead.

HARRIS: Go ahead, Randi. Sorry.

KAYE: I was just going to ask you --

HARRIS: I was just going to say, so the big question is going to be, during the speech on Thursday night, how much will Obama get into corporate tax reform? How much is he going to get into the regulation?

I mean, to hear the Republicans tell it, they want to just get rid of even things like health care reform. So we know President Obama is not going to go there. But we heard last week that he is willing to at least delay some of the environmental reforms.

So go ahead -- Randi.

KAYE: And do you think that's what we can expect to hear from him on Thursday night, a little bit more about that?

HARRIS: Yes. And I think you're going to hear a lot of the same things we've heard over -- that we've tried for the past three years, some of which have worked.

I mean, so, certainly, you're going to hear more about extending unemployment insurance, a payroll tax cut holiday, which we even just -- we extended it in December, and there have been a lot of calls to extend them again. The idea there is to keep money flowing through the economy.

When you talk to economists, they basically say we don't want to cut back too soon right now on spending, and certainly not increase taxes. And they almost don't care how they do it.

KAYE: In terms of trade deals, do you see any similarities or differences between the Romney plan and the Obama plan?

HARRIS: A lot of similarities. I mean, President Obama has been talking about this for a very long time. Basically, everybody agrees. There is deals with Korea, Panama, Colombia. Everyone thinks that we should move toward free trade. The risks right now is that people will want to get into a more protectionist stance and say we have to protect American jobs.

That's true, and we do have to find a way to protect American workers. But I think it's pretty much a consensus among economists that we need to keep moving ahead on free trade.

KAYE: When you look at how things get done or don't get done in Washington, and you look at this divided Congress that we have, really the question is, how feasible are either of these plans or anyone else's plan?

HARRIS: You know, all of this discussion about the possibility of more stimulus, you've got to remember, it's coming just a month after this bruising debate about the debt ceiling, when we were talking about cutting spending. The good news in that is, we really pushed back the spending cuts. So, by next year, we're talking about very small spending.

But still, it's also coming two months ahead of the super committee, where we're planning another $2 trillion in deficit reduction. So the timing just couldn't be worse in trying to push additional measures through Congress.

KAYE: All right.

Lex Harris, managing editor of CNNMoney.com.

Thank you very much.

And we will of course bring you Mitt Romney live from Nevada, when he does begin to outline his plan. That's coming your way about 3:30 Eastern Time.

Well, it's not openly talked about, but it is a reality that plagues politics, the presidency, and we, the people, a candid conversation about the color line in this country. We will have that conversation, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Many people thought Barack Obama's presidency would be the start of a post-racial era in America, but our next guest says the reality hasn't quite lived up to that expectation. Harvard Law professor Randall Kennedy wrote the book "The Persistence of the Color Line: Racial Politics and the Obama Presidency." And yes, the book is supposed to be sideways.

The book looks at the racial battles the president has to fight and the issues all of us face as a country. Professor Randall Kennedy joins me now.

Professor, thank you so much for coming on the program today. First, you mentioned that President Obama has to balance the dreams and the expectations of black voters and the anxieties and fears of white voters. Can you just explain that a bit for us?

PROF. RANDALL KENNEDY, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL: Well, sure. Take a look right now at the debate over economic policy. On the one hand, he's criticized by some blacks if he does not frame policies that will particularly help the black unemployed, because they're disproportionately in the ranks of the unemployed. And if he doesn't do something special, he's accused of abandoning his base.

On the other hand, if he does do something special, he will be accused of showing racial favoritism. So he's caught in a bind, a dilemma.

KAYE: And let's talk about some of this dilemma, because when even you look at the economy and the jobs battle, there are those who say he isn't doing enough for black people, and there are others who say he's not doing enough for people, period. So how does he manage this line?

KENNEDY: It's a very difficult situation that he's in. And frankly, any way he turns he will be criticized. So I think what people have to recognize is that a black politician in a position like Barack Obama's will face special problems because of the persistence of the color line.

KAYE: Do you think that if the economy was in better shape, that maybe we wouldn't see as much of this racial attitude and racial prejudice and racial divide still continuing with him in the White House?

KENNEDY: Well, I mean, when things are tough, you know, things are always more contentious, and bad economic times are always a fertile -- you k now, it always gives rise to more prejudice. But frankly, given the history of our country, race is going to be an issue, frankly, no matter what.

And people who thought that the election of Barack Obama would wipe away race as an issue were being either naive, or they were being cynical and trying to get away from the race problem by simply pointing to the black man in the White House and saying, see, there, we finished with all of that.

KAYE: As a black president, do you think that President Obama still gets the same respect or maybe even more disrespect than the white presidents before him? Because I know there was a recent article in "The New York Times" -- I'm sure you're familiar with it -- where the headline was "GOP Versus Obama: Disrespect or Politics?" And then there was this very famous moment that I want to play for you, and then I'll get your answer to that question.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The reforms -- the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.

REP. JOE WILSON (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: You lie!

(BOOING)

OBAMA: That's not true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: None of us will forget that moment where somebody actually yelled, "You lie!" at the president of the United States during a very significant speech.

So is there a disrespect there for this president?

KENNEDY: Absolutely. President Obama is in much the same position as Jackie Robinson.

Jackie Robinson was -- suffered all sorts of abuse, much of it racial abuse. And he had to rise above it, he had to bite his tongue, and he had to show a special nobility. And I think the same is true of Barack Obama. That particularly episode, clearly it was that that representative was emboldened in a way that he would not have felt emboldened had not Barack Obama been black.

KAYE: And we're talking about Representative Joe Wilson, just to be clear here.

I also want to ask you about this label, this "angry black man" label that the president has certainly tried to avoid. Meanwhile, though, some say that he isn't aggressive enough.

So when you look at that balance, how does he manage that?

KENNEDY: Well, again, it's a dilemma. On the one hand, if he comes out swinging, if he raises his voice, if he shows anger, he has to confront the stereotype of the angry black man.

If, on the other hand, he shows sort of the discipline that he does show, if he's quiet and contemplative, he's accused by some of being too professorial, and he's again accused of being too distant. He's accused of not feeling the pain of those who are being hurt by the economic catastrophe that is engulfing us.

So, again, it's one of these dilemmas. It's a dilemma that all politicians face, but he faces it even more because of his blackness.

KAYE: There was a big question early on in the campaign and even after he was elected about how much he should talk about his race, and then finally he held the big speech about race and race relations.

So, if you were advising him today for the 2012 campaign, should he stay away from the race issue or should he go for it?

KENNEDY: He should stay away from it because, politically, it's a loser for him. The more he talks about race, the blacker he becomes in the eyes of the public. And, you know, it's not a good issue for Barack Obama. That's not his fault. It says something very bad, frankly, about our political environment. But I think it is a reality.

KAYE: Well, that was certainly great insight.

Randall Kennedy, we loved having you on the program today.

The author of "The Persistence of the Color Line."

Thank you so much for your time. It was a pleasure.

KENNEDY: Thanks for having me. Thank you.

KAYE: Time right now, about 24 minutes past the hour. Let's check some top stories.

Breaking news now from Nevada. Police tell CNN three people are dead, six others wounded after a shooting at an IHOP restaurant in Carson City. The gunman also shot himself, police say, in the restaurant's parking lot and is not expect today survive.

We'll bring you much more information as we get it into the CNN NEWSROOM.

In addition to being a natural disaster, Hurricane Irene could be a disaster for the federal budget. The White House believes relief efforts will cost taxpayers $1.5 billion. That's on top of more than $5 billion needed for other recent disasters. And the Federal Emergency Management Agency has only about $800 million left in its reserves for the current fiscal year.

Republican House Majority Leader Eric Cantor says any increase in disaster relief funding should be offset by cutting other parts of the federal budget. That could touch off a new congressional spending fight.

Honda is announcing another major worldwide recall of around a million cars. In the U.S. there are concerns of power windows switches in some CR-V models from 2006. Some 2011 CRZ hybrids are being recalled as well. This is Honda's second major recall in just a month. In early August, Honda recalled 1.5 million cars in the U.S. alone.

While stocks have been down sharply today, gold is up yet again. The price of gold inching awfully close to $2,000 an ounce. To check the rising value of gold and other precious metals, you can simply log on to CNNMoney.com.

American Amanda Knox back in court today as her attorneys hammer prosecutors over the handling of key DNA evidence. Sunny Hostin will be along to help us sort it all out, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Italian prosecutors are defending themselves today in the Amanda Knox case. Knox is the American student convicted in the murder of her roommate in Italy in 2007. She was back in the courtroom today. It is the second day back after the court took a summer recess.

Knox is currently serving a 26-year sentence. Her attorneys say the key evidence in the case may have been contaminated and are questioning the DNA testing done by investigators.

We're joined now by Sunny Hostin, legal contributor for "In Session" on our sister network, truTV.

Hi there, Sunny. Let's talk about this case. It's getting a lot of attention.

What are prosecutors saying today about allegations that they didn't exactly meet international testing standards when it comes to testing the DNA?

SUNNY HOSTIN, LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: SUNNY HOSTIN, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, they're certainly on the defensive today, Randi. What they're saying is the international DNA standards have changed since they collected and processed the DNA evidence in this case. And so, while they may not have met those standards and while the court appointed neutral experts have testified to that, have said that they felt that this -- these collection procedures were shoddy.

They also felt that the very small amount of DNA was really too small to extract a proper DNA profile. They're saying -- the prosecutors experts are saying that doesn't really matter because those standards were not in place at this -- at that time, which would have been May of 2008. So, very interesting defense so to speak.

KAYE: So, they're questioning the process. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it was on the bra clasp and also the knife as well, that they think was the murder weapon.

HOSTIN: That's right. I think it's important to note that because Knox's DNA was allegedly found on the handle of the blade.

The victim, Meredith Kercher's DNA was allegedly found on the blade and then Raffaelle Sollecito, which was -- who was Amanda Knox's boyfriend, his DNA was allegedly found on the bra clasp of the victim. Without that DNA evidence, Randi, there is no forensic physical evidence tying Amanda Knox to this crime, which is why this appeal is so very important and which is why the attacks on the DNA collection and evidence is so very important to Amanda Knox.

KAYE: So, it sounds to me like this could be a long appeals process. I mean, you have one side saying one thing and another side saying another about the key evidence in the case.

HOSTIN: Well, it has been going on for quite some time. It was sort of on hiatus over the summer. We're just back on Monday. Apparently, it may end this week, and then there will be a ten-day additional hiatus.

But we're supposed to have a decision by the end of September, Randi. And I think what's really important to note here in terms of the appellate process in Italy, it's very, very different from the appellate process in the United States. In Italy, it's akin to getting a new trial, which is why we're hearing so much new information, new DNA testing, new expert testimony.

And so, I don't think it's too far-reaching to say if the judge in this case finds that the DNA evidence is inadmissible, she could be set free.

KAYE: So, this isn't been necessarily about getting a new trial. This is really about being set free. She could leave Italy possibly?

HOSTIN: That is right. I think that is so interesting. Because in America, as I think many viewers know, when you are on appeal, you're sort of whetted to the facts below, the facts presented at trial. It's a review of the facts.

But in Italy, again, this is a new trial so to speak for Amanda Knox. That is why her supporters, her family, her friends, they are hoping that they will see Amanda Knox back in the United States in October.

KAYE: Won't that be something, after all these years and being sentenced to 26 careers in prison. Sunny Hostin, thank you. Appreciate it. Nice to see you.

Well, we wanted to take a moment to talk about the victim in this case. That is Meredith Kercher. The 21-year-old student from Serrie (ph), England, was studying in Italy as part of an exchange program. She had been there only two months before her murder. Her older sister wrote a letter to the judge hearing this latest appeal, questioning the decision to possibly throw out key evidence in the case. She also said, she and her family can't find a day of peace as the appeals process drags on.

In one minute, is the material girl Madonna working on a new album? Maybe so. We'll give you the details, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Thirty-five minutes past the hour -- time to check the headlines and some other news that you may have missed.

In Texas, wildfires have forced hundreds to evacuate their homes near Austin and Houston. Firefighters are struggling to contain the fires which the forest service says killed two people and destroyed more than 700 homes since Sunday. You're looking now at pictures of the Bastrop complex. That's the largest fire that firefighters are battling near Austin.

Governor Rick Perry took an aerial tour of the damage in central Texas, west of Austin. Perry is urging Texans to follow all warnings. Just in the past week, the Texas Forest Service responded to 181 fires that have burned more than 118,000 acres.

The family of a Mississippi man who was allegedly killed in a hate crime has filed a wrongful death lawsuit today against the suspects. James Anderson was allegedly beaten by a group of white teenagers and then run down by a pickup truck in June. The lawsuit alleges the 17s, quote, "set out on a mission to find and harass African-Americans." But the family's attorney who spoke with CNN earlier says the community has embraced the Anderson family.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WINSTON J. THOMPSON III, ATTORNEY FOR VICTIM'S FAMILY: The family has very encouraged with the outpouring of support from the community. And we just hope that it continues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: The family is seeking a jury trial and damages.

We're following breaking news as well today from Nevada. Take a look. Police tell CNN three people are dead, six others wounded after a shooting at an IHOP restaurant in Carson City. CNN has learned that two of the dead were military.

The gunman also shot himself. He's not expected to survive.

We'll bring you much more information as it comes in.

A foreign industry trade group tells "The L.A. Times" that the HIV scare that shutdown the porn industry on August 29th was a false alarm. They tie an actor's positive test to a Florida testing facility that did not have correct procedures in place. Others are still lobbying for more regulation. But, for now, Los Angeles porn industry is filming again through self-regulated testing.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)

KAYE: And the Material Girl, Madonna, is back. She will have a new album for 2012, her first since 2008 when this video was shot. She tells Swedish TV, she expects a single in February or March.

A convoy from Libya seen rolling through a neighboring African nation. Was Moammar Gadhafi trying to make an escape? We'll ask that question next when we go "Globe Trekking."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Time now for "Globe Trekking" and reports of a mysterious Libyan convoy seen traveling through the East African country of Niger. Sources say several officials were on board.

And Ben Wedeman joins us now by phone from Tripoli.

Ben, what can you tell us about this convoy and who might have been on it?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, actually, there were two convoys. One entered arrived in the capital Niamey yesterday and another has entered the country. Now, according to some State Department officials, these convoys carried several senior Libyan officials, senior Gadhafi Libyan officials. Now, we do know or our understanding is among them is the one Mansoor Dow (ph), who was responsible for the personal security of Moammar Gadhafi.

Now, the American embassy in Niger has told, met with government officials there and said that some of these people may be on the wanted U.N. -- rather affected by the U.N. travel ban on senior Gadhafi senior officials and they should be arrested. But this is clearly -- there are a lot of Libyan officials, former government officials who are trying to leave the country at this point. But it appears that among those people in the two convoys was not Moammar Gadhafi -- Kaye.

KAYE: Do we know anything? If he wasn't in one of the convoys, do we know anything more about Moammar Gadhafi's whereabouts today?

WEDEMAN: Well, lots of people seem to say they know where he is. But do they really is a good question.

We spoke to the deputy prime minister of the National Transitional Council in Tripoli yesterday. He said they do know where he is but they don't want to pursue him or fear of shedding blood. Yesterday, also on a Damascus-based pro-Libyan television station, Moussa Ibrahim, the former spokesman for Gadhafi, said that Gadhafi is alive and well and in excellent condition inside Libya and that he's planning to liberate the country.

So, nobody really knows where he is. We do not believe he is in the town of Bani Walid, where outside of which we spent most of the day. He could be in his hometown Sirte on the Mediterranean coast. He could be in a pro-Gadhafi town in the southern part of the country or he could be anywhere in the vast Libyan desert -- Randi.

KAYE: A whole lot of possibilities there in Libya and elsewhere. Ben Wedeman, thank you for the update.

Millions more people are using food stamps now to help make ends meet. And you may soon be able to use them at restaurants. Is this a good idea? We'll talk more about it, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: The battle is on for a piece of the food stamp pie. Traditionally, food stamps are used at grocery stores and you can't use them to buy prepared foods. But in four states, California, Arizona, Michigan and Florida, a program allows food stamps to now be used at restaurants. The question is: should more states get on board and allow restaurants to accept food stamps?

Joining me now is Dr. Melina Jampolis and Maria Foscarinis, who is the founder and executive director of the National Law Center on Homelessness and Poverty.

Thank you both for joining me. First, Maria, is expanding the food stamps to be used at restaurants a good idea, do you think?

MARIA FOSCARINIS, NATIONAL LAW CENTER ON HOMELESSNESS AND POVERTY: It is absolutely a good idea. This is an existing federal program that's been on the books for decades. But it's a state option. So states have a choice.

I think they should use that choice because hunger is increasing, more and more people are also losing their homes. And this is a program that applies to people who are homeless or elderly or disabled. Therefore, it's extremely difficult or impossible for them to go to the grocery store and bring back food and cook it at home.

For homeless people, they have no home to cook it in. So this could make an enormous difference. It can make a difference between having access to food and not having it.

KAYE: Melina, I want to ask you -- if you look at the numbers. I mean, we have a chart that shows how much money is involved here. I'm curious if you think that this might be just a ploy for restaurant owners to get more money. I mean, if you look at the chart, food stamp usage surged to $64.7 billion.

DR. MELINA JAMPOLIS, PHYSICIAN NUTRITION SPECIALIST: Well, I think it could potentially be a ploy. But I think it could be a beneficial one.

I do agree with Maria. More than 30 percent of our meals are consumed away from home, even for those that aren't homeless. I think that if a mom is busy and she's on food stamps and she just wants to get a hot meal into her kids on the way to school, that it really would be a nice bonus to be able to use her food stamps for something outside of the home as well.

And I've also been working with a lot of families that are eating food stamps. And the foods that they are choosing at the grocery store are a lot of sugar and a lot of saturated fat. So, I don't think it's going to decrease the quality of the diet, which is a concern of a lot of nutrition experts.

KAYE: If you look at the food included here now, we're talking about fast food and a lot of people are wondering, well, maybe this is going to foster some bad eating habits. So, Maria, what's your take on that? I mean, is fast food better than no food, I guess?

FOSCARINIS: Exactly. Fast food is better than no food. And when we're talking about homeless people, which this is a particular program that is targeted at homeless people as well as elderly and disabled people.

And the choice really does come down to either not eating or eating very poorly and having a meal. And so, I think that's the issue. That's the choice.

And it's not clear that just buying grocery food, even if there is a place to cook it, is necessarily healthier. So, it's fast food because it's inexpensive food.

KAYE: Yes.

FOSCARINIS: It doesn't have to be unhealthy. But it's no food versus some food is the bottom line.

KAYE: Melina, would you like to weigh in on that?

JAMPOLIS: Yes. I mean, I think it is a big concern. I mean, nutrition experts, what we're concerned about is that, you know, it's families -- low income families that are going to be eating more fast food. And maybe that could have more profound health implications. But again, 40 percent of the food that children in this country, ages two to 18, eat is either sugary sodas or juices or desserts.

So, I think it's more about education. And if we can teach people on food stamps to maybe lean toward better choices -- I mean, maybe -- I know this is going to sound crazy -- but they have a hamburger and skip the fries, that could potentially be better.

And I do think you have to pay attention to the hunger crisis in this country in addition to the obesity epidemic.

KAYE: Let me share a statement from YUM Foods. I want to get your take on it. Those, of course, the restaurants would include from YUM Foods, Taco Bell, KFC, Pizza Hut. YUM Foods says, "It makes perfect sense to expand a program working well in California, Arizona and Michigan, enabling the homeless, elderly and disabled to purchase prepared meals with snap benefits in a restaurant environment just as they can purchase ingredients in a supermarket."

So, just very quickly here, Maria. To you first, do you agree?

FOSCARINIS: Yes. Absolutely. I do agree, for the reasons I explained, because for homeless, elderly and disabled people, it's a real challenge to cook unprepared food. It does make a difference.

Now, on the question of the quality of the food, I think it's essential to try to improve that quality. I mean, it is better to have some food rather than no food. But it's also important to have good quality food and there's no reason why fast food restaurants can't provide that. They should be encouraged to do that that.

KAYE: Melina, very quickly, final word?

JAMPOLIS: Yes, I really think it's about education in this population and that's the key. And however we can do that and integrate fast food in, I'm OK with it as long as we do it the best way we can.

KAYE: Maria Foscarinis, and, Dr. Melina Jampolis, appreciate both of you joining the discussion. Thank you.

Thousands of first responders risked their lives to help after the 9/11 terrorist attack. Now, 10 years later, those same heroes are now victims themselves. Find out, much more on this next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: A decade after 9/11, people are still dealing with the pain of the attack as thousands of responders are suffering from health consequences. Chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta has spent the past year investigating the health fallout of 9/11 first responders. And he joins us with the latest.

Sanjay, what have you found?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Randi, one thing I can tell you at the 10-year mark, you start to be able to collect data on what's happened, you know, trying to figure out was there a connection between the dust and health effects and what was in that dust specifically. Big question, Dr. Paul Lioy who works at Rutgers University, he does this kind of work, he analyzed the dust over the last several years. Take a listen to what he had to say.

DR. PAUL LIOY, RUTGERS UNIVERSITY: You got fire retardants. You got combustion product, plastics and other parts of the periodic table.

GUPTA (voice-over): Gold and mercury from tens of thousands of fluorescent light bulbs. Lead from thousands of computer monitors. Titanium from paint on the Trade Center walls. Asbestos that coated lower beams of the trade center buildings. There was cement, glass, carpet fibers, ceiling tiles, even human hairs.

In all, 1.5 million tons of the stuff.

LIOY: You had burning aircraft. You had burning furniture. You had burning buildings. That burning material included the jet fuel.

You don't know what the gases were in this initial complex mixture. That was inhaled by everyone. Because no one could measure it, that's the great unknown in this.

GUPTA (on camera): Is it always going to be unknowable?

LIOY: Yes, there will always --

GUPTA: There will always be mysteries about the dust?

LIOY: Yes.

GUPTA: Randi, the mystery that he's talking about is had idea that immediately after the attacks, there were compound in the air, volatile compounds that sort of dissipated into the atmosphere. They were never collected. So, we don't know what the final analysis is in terms of what people breathe in at that time.

We do know that people did get sick in higher numbers than expected, respiratory problems. But also autoimmune problems from inflammation that was caused by that dust.

And also, most recently, a paper showed an increase in cancer among first responders who are also working for the fire department. So, yes, there will be some persistent questions, persistent mysteries about the dust. But we know more than ever before about what it did to people.

Randi, back to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAYE: Thank you, Sanjay. You can watch Dr. Gupta's full investigation of the health fallout since 9/11. Plus, rare never before seen footage of that tragic day in the documentary "Terror in the Dust." It airs this Wednesday at 11 p.m. Eastern.

Rick Perry skipped yesterday's presidential forum to deal with the wildfires in his state instead. But that has not stopped him from burning up the polls and his rivals. Your CNN political update is coming next.

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KAYE: Let's see what's happening in the world of politics. For that, we'll check in with Mark Preston.

Mark, what is going on at the Bachmann campaign?

MARK PRESTON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL EDITOR: Yes, a little shuffle at the top. No doubt about that, Randi.

What we've learned in the last 24 hours is that Ed Rollins who was in the Reagan administration, helped Reagan win a second term, Ed Rollins also helped Mike Huckabee back in 2008 come out of nowhere, he had stepped down as the campaign manager for Michele Bachmann's campaign. In fact, he was on CNN last night. He told Anderson Cooper that he did it because of health reasons.

However, you have to start to question what the Bachmann campaign is thinking and doing right now because ever since Rick Perry got into the race, Michele Bachmann has started to slip in the polls.

So, we've seen Michele Bachmann have a changeover at the top of her campaign leadership. Not only Ed Rollins stepped aside, but so has the deputy campaign manager -- Randi.

KAYE: And you mentioned Rick Perry. He's certainly standing strong in the polls still, but he's not without his problems.

PRESTON: Yes. He certainly has some problems. Let's just talk a quick look at this poll from the NBC/"Wall Street Journal" just came out this morning. It shows that Rick Perry is riding very high at 38 percent in this poll. In fact, he's got a 15-point lead over Romney.

The problem with this though is that he's the front-runner and nobody want to be the front-runner this early on. It also puts him at the top of the mountain, so to speak. So, all of the other candidates will be trying to push him off that mountain. So, Rick Perry has had a fantastic start, so to speak, with his campaign now just about a-month-old. However, he is the front-runner and there are those problems that come along with that -- Randi.

KAYE: Yes, we got a long way to go. Mark Preston, thank you very much.

And be sure to tune in to CNN Monday night for the CNN Tea Party express GOP presidential debate. That is live from Tampa, Florida. Our coverage with "The Best Political Team on Television" starts at 8:00 p.m. Eastern.

Thanks for watching. That will do it for me. But CNN NEWSROOM continues right now with Brooke Baldwin.

Hi there, Brooke.