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Republicans Debate in Florida; President Obama Touts Jobs Proposal; GOP Candidates Prepare for Tea Party Debate in Florida; Animals at Zoo in Tripoli Getting Help; Pharmacist at Walgreens Fired for Defending Self with Gun; Band Death Cab for Cutie Interviewed

Aired September 12, 2011 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And hello to all of you. I want to pick up right where Randi left off. Big debate tonight.

And there's no denying that this guy, Texas Governor Rick Perry, is the Republican partly front-runner for president. And we have a brand-new poll. And, folks, we're going to show it to you. And you're going to see Rick Perry sweeps it. Have a look with me. Republicans' choice for president, Rick Perry 12 points ahead of Mitt Romney, Sarah Palin, Ron Paul the only others in double digits.

Then this one, best chance of beating Barack Obama, Rick Perry by a long shot, look at that, over Mitt Romney, strongest leader, Rick Perry and, once again, double digits ahead of Mitt Romney. Most likely to get the economy moving, say it with me, Rick Perry. A Rick Perry sweep in this poll.

That debate tonight, as you now know, from Tampa, 8:00 p.m. Eastern time, co-hosted by CNN and the Tea Party Express. Eight Republicans ready to go.

Joining me now from Austin, Texas, the guy who knows Rick Perry like no one else, we have discovered here, Wayne Slater of "Dallas Morning News."

And, Wayne, as a guy who's covered Rick Perry for years and years, are you surprised to see him rocket to the top of the pack quite like this? A month ago -- we were talking today -- a month ago today, the governor hadn't even entered the presidential race.

WAYNE SLATER, COLUMNIST, "THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS": Yes. Two months ago he hadn't even decided whether he was going to enter the race. Honestly, no, I think he is the perfect candidate, his side thinks, at the perfect moment in the perfect campaign.

This is a campaign where voters are anxious, they're angry, they want somebody who looks like a leader, somebody who is strong and tough and is a fighter. And people like myself who have watched Rick Perry for about 20 years know that, if he's anything, he is a no-retreat, charge-ahead fighter.

BALDWIN: Rick Perry, you know this, started out in Texas as a Democrat. Political winds, they shifted, Perry switched parties. Back in the day, he said nice things about the Clinton health plan, only later to say he didn't mean them, only to say those -- to curry favor essentially with the White House.

Now today he is sort of papering over the fact -- I know you read that op-ed in the "USA Today," as did I -- he's insisting Social Security is a Ponzi scheme, not really going that far in that op-ed. You have got to say, Wayne Slater, if you're talking about -- and I say this air quotes -- quintessential politics, is Rick Perry kind of coming straight out of central casting here?

SLATER: You know, it's amazing. His entire career has been this way. He has done things, like you say, was a Democrat, became a Republican -- he's done things early in his governorship that he's changed to some extent. But it never seems to get hurt. There's sort of a Teflon quality about him.

He's able to change without looking like he's significantly changing. And I think that's a quality that voters will accept, even some of the Tea Party voters who might not be happy with everything that he said. The fact that he is this boot-scooting it Texas cowboy with a record of creating jobs is something that I think is appealing.

I was just in Southern California late last week talking to some Tea Party activists in southern Orange County, Republicans, and they like Rick Perry a lot. And what they like a lot is not that he has shifted his position. They don't care. They like where he is today.

BALDWIN: We will see how Floridians feel tonight. But speaking of boots scooting, Wayne Slater, we have managed to get ahold of this ad that Perry ran during his first run for statewide office. Take a look.

Wayne, you see Rick Perry, here he is, about to get atop a horse, wearing that 10-gallon hat. I know you told us he wears cowboy boots each and every day. The thing is, though, he's been in politics for 28 years. Wayne, what did he do before? Did he have any business experience?

SLATER: Well, he did. It's not the kind of business experience that Mitt Romney had, but he worked on the family farm. He really is a guy who grew up, unlike the caricature of George W. Bush, Rick Perry really was someone who grew up on a dryland cotton farm in West Texas.

He would put together airplanes, small prop planes with duct tape and John Deere parts and manage the cattle, check out what the cattle was doing. When he lived on the ranch actually in the early '30s, he still didn't know what he was going to do in life.

He would take his dog and take his horse and go up Brazos River Creek and he would put a tent up and live there for one or two weeks in solitary confinement, as it were. This is the Rick Perry who was trying to decide what he wanted to do. He was a rancher. He understood that business. What he didn't understand at the beginning was, how would he spend the rest of his life?

BALDWIN: Well, I think it's interesting you said he's changed so much without looking like he's significantly changed over the course of the last 20-odd years. How do you think, looking back -- you talked last week -- you talked about being in California. How do you think Perry did in that debate last Wednesday and then what are you looking for as you look to see him tonight?

SLATER: Again, the key here is, from the Perry camp, is, will he look like a fighter? The political guru for Rick Perry, Dave Carney, believes that voters want red meat rhetoric and they want someone who doesn't look like they back down from tough, strong stands.

Now, Perry took a heck of a stand with respect to Social Security being a Ponzi scheme. I don't see him significantly backing away from that. They think that language is appealing to the voters and the constituents they want.

I think Rick Perry needs to explain better that he's not saying I want to blow up Social Security. I want to fix it. Look for him tonight to try to add that to his resume of points. But don't look at him to back away from the positions he's stood because the very fact that he stands up, talks tough is a message, really a dog whistle to Republican voters who say, we want somebody to go into the ring and who will fight and beat Barack Obama.

That is the Rick Perry you are still going to see. But of course, tonight we do expect I think, as you know, not only Romney to come after him on Social Security, but Bachmann, Michele Bachmann, to try to get back in the race and go after him on Social Security...

BALDWIN: Of course. Of course.

SLATER: ... possibly on immigration.

BALDWIN: We will look for it and we will look for those words, the red meat rhetoric as you phrased it, not backing down. Wayne Slater, as always, thank you so much, Wayne Slater of "Dallas Morning News."

And now let's talk about the president are. Because you remember the president's jobs speech, the big one last week? Well, here's the CliffsNotes version. You remember this?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Pass this jobs bill and we can put people to work. You should pass it right away. Pass this bill. Pass this jobs bill. Pass this bill, and hundreds of thousands of disadvantaged young people...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Well, just one minor issue, as that was certainly the president's refrain, that night as he spoke, there was no bill. Well, today, there it is in his left hand. The president has got it and now he has sent it up to Congress.

More than $440 billion, and now they are spelling out how they plan to cover that cost.

Let's go to Brianna Keilar covering the White House for you. And, Brianna, two words, right? Tax increase.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Tax increases.

And, Brooke, I hope you can hear me OK. I will tell you though the sound you're hearing that is the sound of people at work so I guess it's all sort of in line with what we're talking about.

The proposal for paying for the president's jobs plan, tax increases, limiting deductions, those itemized deductions that wealthier Americans take, and we're talking about people who as individuals earn $200,000 or more, families who earn $250,000 or more. They would see their taxes increased if they do use those itemized deductions when they file their taxes. And this would actually raise the bulk of the funds to pay for the president's jobs plan.

But you will also see in his proposals for tax increases things that would affect hedge fund managers, oil and gas companies and also corporate jet owners. Those may sound familiar. We have heard the White House talk about those before during that debt ceiling battle, Brooke.

BALDWIN: What about the other big one, if you can hopefully still hear me there? It looks like the sound is drowned out a little bit.

KEILAR: I can.

BALDWIN: OK.

I know the one that makes a lot of people's ears perk up, that being limiting itemized deductions.

KEILAR: Yes. This is one that certainly will make a lot of people's ears perk up.

Here's the thing. When you look at how much the White House is trying to raise through these tax increases in this proposal, it's $467 billion. They say they want to build in cushion to make sure that it would cover everything. That's over 10 years, and this is according to Jack Lew, the president's budget director -- $400 billion of that $467 billion comes from limiting these itemized deductions.

This is really the bulk of it. Keep in mind, though, it's actually lacked support in Congress and I'm not just talking about Republican support. I'm talking about support from moderate Democrats as well.

And so it's pretty interesting to see the White House really not emphasizing this tax increase as much as the other ones.

Listen to Jack Lew.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACK LEW, WHITE HOUSE BUDGET DIRECTOR: If the American people were asked to make a choice between tax breaks for investment fund managers who get preferential treatment for carried interest and oil and gas industry tax breaks that treat oil and gas more favorably than other investments, and corporate jets that are treated more favorably than commercial, that is not a hard choice for most Americans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: So, Brooke, you will see he didn't mention the itemized deductions. He did mention that corporate jet tax increase.

And I should tell you that would bring in, the White House says, $3 billion, so $3 billion of the $467 billion. The industry, of course, will argue that that tax break creates jobs. But, as you know, Brooke, when Americans are just hurting the way there are, there's not really a whole lot of sympathy out there for people and corporations that can afford to own corporate jets.

But the other thing is and you have to realize it certainly does make a very good talking point, and the White House is using it.

BALDWIN: Yes. We heard the same line as we heard last week, right? The election is 14 months away, but the American people don't have the luxury of waiting 14 months. That's what we're going to keep hearing, I'm sure, from the president.

Brianna Keilar from the lawn of the White House, thank you so much, Bri.

And as President Obama delivers his jobs pitch, the nation's biggest bank announces at least 30,000 people will lose their jobs, 30,000. My next guest says one man is responsible for Bank of America's problems, one man and his ego.

Also, if banks are on the verge of shrinking, how does it affect you, your savings, your mortgage? Rebel Cole, a former Federal Reserve economist, will join me live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Checking the clock here, we are 47 minutes away from the closing bell, markets closing on this Monday.

Two big stories are really percolating through this action today on Wall Street. You can see the numbers right now, the Dow down triple digits, down 104 points here. Now, the first story I want to tell is an announcement by Bank of America that could cause it to lose its status as the nation's biggest bank, Bank of America announcing just this morning it is eliminating some 30,000 jobs in the next couple of years as a part of this plan to save $5 billion a year.

The other big story since the opening bell here this morning -- and there is the opening bell -- American investors reacting to news from Europe by selling off. The concern here is that Greece -- we have talked so much about Greece this year -- Greece could default on its debts if it doesn't get bailout money soon.

(STOCK MARKET UPDATE) BALDWIN: And I want to just talk a little bit more about this news. What do the Bank of America layoffs, what does that really mean for you?

I want to bring in economist Rebel Cole.

And, Rebel, before we talk about what you call -- and I read articles where you were quoted today calling this a stupid business plan. And we will get to that. Here's what I know a lot of Americans just want to know, plain fat. If I'm a Bank of America customer, I have a mortgage, how will all these changes affect me? Should I be scared?

REBEL COLE, PROFESSOR OF FINANCE, DEPAUL UNIVERSITY: Well, I'm also a checking account holder at Bank of America. And for most customers this is really a nonevent.

There's no new news here about Bank of America. This restructuring is really the new CEO's attempt to get his arms around the problems and cut costs and boost their capital ratio. If you're a depositor, this is a nonevent as long as you don't have any more than $250,000 in any one account, which most us don't. If you're a borrower, it means you might get a little bit worse customer service.

If you're an employee, this amounts to a little over 10 percent of the work force so that could be -- it could impact you, but probably only if you're in the non-banking activities, not in commercial banking.

BALDWIN: OK. You have also said, Rebel, that it was the hubris of one man, that man being the former CEO, Ken Lewis, that took down the largest bank in America. His plan was to make it the biggest. How did his plan and his ego, I guess, fail him?

COLE: Well, Ken Lewis did a masterful job up to a point following Hugh McColl before him, as we -- North Carolina has followed. This is the only premier banking organization outside of New York City except for Wells Fargo.

And what his mistake was, was to embrace the Countrywide franchise. He viewed that as a platform for competing in mortgage origination with Fannie and Freddie. It didn't turn out that way. Over 80 percent of the bad loans at Bank of America came from Countrywide. Most of the litigation risk that they're facing came from Countrywide. It just turned out to be a horrible investment. A lot of people talked to the Merrill Lynch investment that was sort of a shotgun wedding. That's actually turned out pretty well for Bank of America. But Countrywide has been a disaster.

BALDWIN: We saw the announcement, current CEO Mr. Moynihan talking about eliminating 30,000 jobs on top of the announcement earlier this year they plan to cut 6,000 in addition. Is this a trend? Are banks shrinking?

COLE: I think you will see that especially among the four, the mega- banks, the too-big-to-fail banks, the ones that are like $1 trillion to $2.5 trillion in assets. Regulators want them to shrink. They're too big and too unwieldy to properly govern. I think you will see more and more of this downsizing and trying to focus on core activities rather than trying to be the financial supermarket that provides everything to everybody.

BALDWIN: So focus more perhaps on being profitable and less concerned about being the biggest bank out there with regard to Bank of America.

You're a former staff economist for the Fed. Does this fall in line for what the Fed is looking for from our nation's biggest lenders?

COLE: I think they would be very happy if the biggest banks shrunk down to size. Now, they're already at $2 trillion. They have got a long way to go.

BALDWIN: OK. Rebel Cole, thank you very much. I appreciate you coming on the show.

COLE: you know what?

BALDWIN: And now this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's an eerie feeling walking around here. You don't know what you're going to bump into. Gunfire still going off. Most of the cages seem empty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: You remember this piece from a couple of weeks ago, Nic Robertson showing us the animals there at the zoo left behind in war- torn Libya? The story got so much reaction that CNN has actually returned to the zoo and found some pretty disturbing scenes. We will take you there ahead.

Plus, star watchers make a big discovery, 50 new planets. They're calling one of them a so-called super-Earth. We will tell you what they found. Chad Myers will help me out with that. In fact, one astronomer is calling this incredibly exciting. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Astronomers say they have discovered a planet that could be home to an atmosphere similar to our own. In fact, they're dubbing this a super-Earth.

Take a look at this. This is an artist's rendering of what it might look like. According to "The Washington Post," there are 50 new planets were discovered and this one is circling an orange star that's similar and cooler than the sun. The super-Earth is just the right distance from its star to have water.

Chad Myers is here because he knows we like to talk everything space.

And what is it? They call it -- it may be in the habitable zone, which means it may have water. CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes. Do you remember the story about Goldilocks and the three bears?

BALDWIN: Oh, boy. Yes.

MYERS: Not too hot, not too cold, just right?

BALDWIN: Just right.

MYERS: That's where these habitable planets could be.

BALDWIN: Super-Earth is just right.

MYERS: It's just right. And now, it's big, though. It's 3.6 times the mass of the Earth. And that tells it -- and these astronomers saying, hey, this is a rock. This is not just some gas planet going around. This could be real.

And it's 77 degrees. At least that's what they think.

BALDWIN: I like that.

MYERS: Because that's the distance -- isn't that perfect?

BALDWIN: Seventy-seven degrees like all time?

MYERS: With a view of the ocean? And it's only 36 light years away.

BALDWIN: I know it's being HD-85512-b. I guess eventually maybe it will get named something.

MYERS: Yes. What about Bob?

BALDWIN: What about Bob?

MYERS: HD...

BALDWIN: Something better. I was looking down at my notes, 36 light years away.

MYERS: Correct.

BALDWIN: So that means we will never live to see what this may be.

MYERS: It also means we can't see it. They think it's there. They believe it's there because of this HARPS astronomy, this telescope down in Chile.

How this happens is that they take a look and they shoot the star and they see if the star wobbles. And if the star actually moves a little bit, that's the gravity from the planet going around it. That's where the wobble comes from. That's how they know it's 3.6 times heavier than the Earth because it made that star wobble a little bit. We won't even try to look at it until the new telescope comes out next year from the observing down there in Chile.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: La Silla Paranal Observatory in Chile.

MYERS: It's in Chile.

BALDWIN: I think we should take a field trip.

MYERS: It's high in the sky, not there's a lot of atmosphere up there to go through. And you speak Spanish fluently. I'm going with you.

BALDWIN: Vamos. OK, perfect. See you there. Thank you, Mr. Myers. Appreciate it. Love talking space with you.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Now this. She's only appeared in person once since the Tucson massacre, but Congresswoman Gabby Giffords about to speak publicly for the very first time since being shot in the head. We will tell you where and when. That's next.

Also, she's considered a Tea Party favorite, but no Republican candidate is plummeting faster in the polls than Michele Bachmann. So, tonight, with the Tea Party movement asking some questions, is this Bachmann's last stand or could it be a rebirth? Don Lemon standing by live for us in Tampa. A preview of CNN's Republican debate is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Some of the top stories unfolding right now, Texas still burning. Officials there say they responded to 19 new wildfires just yesterday on more than 1,000 acres. In the past week, the Texas Forest Service has fought 141 fires on nearly 35,000 acres.

Some of the flames you're looking at from Magnolia, Texas. Obviously this is the charred aftermath. So far, more than 1,500 homes in Texas have been destroyed by these wildfires. And it doesn't help that 95 percent of the state is in extreme drought.

An explosion in a densely populated part of Nairobi, Kenya, kills more than 70 people. The fire is mostly out, but Red Cross officials say a pipeline burst probably while desperate people were siphoning fuel from it. A government spokesman expects the death toll to rise as the body count is revised. This happened in one of Nairobi's packed slums. The blast burned and flattened many makeshift homes there.

And Iran holds a ceremony to inaugurate its first civilian nuclear power plant. The facility now up and running and connected to the national electronic grid. The plant is expected to produce 2.5 percent of the country's electricity when fully operational. The U.N.'s nuclear watchdog is concerned that Iran may be trying to develop nuclear weapons, which Iran denies.

Diane Sawyer getting the first exclusive interview with Arizona Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords. ABC will air the prime-time special November 14, the night before a book written by the congresswoman and her husband, Mark Kelly, shuttle commander, hits store shelves. The book is being called "Gabby: A Story of Courage and Hope." Giffords was shot in the head back in January while meeting with people in her district in Tucson. Six others were killed -- 13 were wounded.

And we are getting set for tonight's big debate in Tampa, Florida, the CNN/Tea Party Republican debate.

Our whole team is down there, including our own Don Lemon.

And, Don, I'm hearing Michele Bachmann's campaign actually reached out to you to give you insight on what to expect from their candidate.

What do they say?

DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. They reached out to me and I spoke with Alice Stewart from the campaign, had a very nice conversation with her. Listen, quite frankly, they are concerned about some of the reports that have been out, which may be indicating that Michele Bachmann is going to attack Rick Perry, going to go as they say strong against Rick Perry, come out against him.

What she said is that's not so. She's not going to attack Rick Perry. "Attack" is the wrong word. What she said basically is they're going to use this opportunity in this first ever Tea Party debate to distinguish herself and doing very strongly from Rick Perry, with Social Security, with health care, with jobs, with the deficit and all of that.

So what she says is Michele Bachmann she believes is strong in every single debate, but this one in particular, this is right up her bailiwick. The Tea Party, these are the people she says she has favor with and she wants to come out swinging, so to speak. And she says that's what she'll use this opportunity for and quite frankly looking forward to this debate more than any other debate since she is a Tea Party favorite.

BALDWIN: Also, we had a conversation with Dallas morning news' Wayne Slater. He's covered Rick Perry for years. I asked him about the issues percolating. Obviously Social Security, but he also mentioned immigration. Is that what you're hearing as far as issues that will dominate the debate?

LEMON: That issue will definitely dominate when it comes to -- I shouldn't say it's going to dominate the debate. It will be important when it comes to Rick Perry since it's Texas, a border state and all of that.

But listen, you know the Tea Party, they say social issues is secondary to them. That may be important for the candidates, but the people I'm talking to here say it's secondary to them. What they want to talk about, money, money, money, jobs, jobs, jobs, spending, deficits, and that's what's important to those folks.

And let's get back to the whole Bachmann thing as well and the Perry thing and all of this and the Tea Party, because, remember, Michele Bachmann won the Iowa straw poll and was ranking very high. BALDWIN: Until Rick Perry joined the crowd.

LEMON: The same day, right?

BALDWIN: Right.

LEMON: So the last poll that -- the most recent poll we have, Perry is at 30 percent, Romney 18 percent, Palin, Brooke, Sarah Palin, who's not even in the race, 15 percent, Ron Paul at 12 percent. You don't see Bachmann on that. Bachmann is down at four percent behind Cain and Gingrich.

So, you know, what her campaign said to me is, this isn't do or die nor her. They think that she is going to have the upper hand in this debate because these are the people who she can relate to most and relates to her most. So there you go, on that end.

BALDWIN: So as we talk about the candidates, I also want to talk about -- I was trying to read how this will work. I know there's a red zone, right? These Tea Party voters will sit in the audience. There were three viewing parties, people can ask questions over Twitter, Facebook. It sounds pretty unique.

LEMON: It is unique. We always have -- there are people we have question that are preselected that are up front. That's in the red zone. Then there's a broader audience and then there are these huge monitors on each side. One side will have people like Anderson in New York or whatever remotes we go to from around the country, and then the other side will be strictly social media that they'll be taking live comments, live tweeting. And then some of the questions will be given to the candidates as well.

But it's -- the inside is amazing. It's amazing, Brooke, to go behind the scenes and see -- it's really cool because it it's just an arena. It's an arena where they may have trade shows and sometimes concerts or what have you. What we do is basically turn it into a studio, an HD-high tech studio at that in a couple of days.

BALDWIN: What's the coolest part about it? You've been there a couple of days. What are you seeing that we don't get to see?

LEMON: Nothing's cooler than the bus.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: The coolest thing, quite honestly, for me is to see like media from around the country come in and actually report on this. I mean, there are hundreds and hundreds of stations, probably about 200 or 300 stations, maybe more, just for other media coming around the country. There's probably more than that. For them to come in and say, oh, my gosh, Don Lemon, CNN. Yes, I'm a reporter just like you.

But the local people look to this as quite honestly a big event because they know news is going to be made from the eight candidates on stage. And the coolest thing, too, is just the feeling, Brooke, because this is unprecedented. It's unchartered territory. Never before have we had a Tea Party debate. And the candidates on the stage are going to have to walk this fine line between appealing to Tea Party candidates and then appealing to a broader electorate.

And Wolf Blitzer gets to moderate the whole thing. We'll be talking to Wolf next hour. Eight candidates, 8:00. Don lemon, thank you sir. And 8:00 tonight is the big Republican debate right here on CNN.

Now this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEREMY HOVEN: The gunman repeatedly attempted to fire upon me. I feared for my life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Walgreens fired this pharmacist after he pulled a gun on these two robbers, the whole thing caught on video. So what do you think? Does protecting yourself and your employer deserve this punishment? Both sides and the surveillance video, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Now to a story we are following out of Michigan. You know, some might call one Walgreens employee a hero after he pulled a gun on armed robbers back in May. The robbers took off, no one was hurt. But Walgreens apparently didn't think there was anything heroic about it at all. In fact, the company fired this man. Now that employee was, I should say, a pharmacist. He is now suing. As part of the case, we're getting video surveillance of the entire thing as it went down. Here is reporter Steve Patterson of CNN affiliate WZZM.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOVEN: I feared for my life.

STEVE PATTERSON, REPORTER, WZZM: In May, two armed men entered a Walgreens in Benton Harbor where Jerry Hoven worked. Surveillance videos shows them take a manager hostage and push him to the back of the store.

HOVEN: The gunman repeatedly attempted to fire upon me.

PATTERSON: In this edited security footage, given to WZZM 13 news from Hoven's attorney, you can see a masked man leap over the counter, weapon drawn.

HOVEN: In self-defense I fired my weapon.

PATTERSON: And the crooks ran off. In a press conference on Wednesday, the pharmacist says he has hey permit for the weapon but a week later was fired a week later.

DAN SWANSON, JEREMY HOVEN'S ATTORNEY: Mr. Hoven by the way of this lawsuit is challenging Walgreens' right to fire him for exercising his right of self-defense.

PATTERSON: Hoven's attorney says a Walgreens district manager fired the pharmacist based on a non-escalation policy.

SWANSON: As we stand here today, neither Jeremy nor I have ever seen that policy.

PATTERSON: A statement from Walgreens to WZZM 13 news says, employees go through extensive training in crisis situations and are told to be compliant.

DEREK WITTE, LAW PROFESSOR, COOLEY LAW SCHOOL: That makes for a really interesting case, you know, potentially with national importance.

PATTERSON: Cooley Law professor Derrick Witty says in Michigan anyone is allowed to carry a weapon with the proper permit unless it is written anywhere in the company's policy.

WITTE: The legal issues are really going to stand against what potentially was an act of heroism. I don't know that it will go away as easily as Walgreens would like.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: So it's a fascinating case. Obviously a lot of legal questions coming from it. Coming up next hour, Sunny Hostin will answer some of those questions when we go on the case.

Still ahead you're going to see the interview with one of my all-time favorite bands on this Music Monday. I'm so excited for this.

Also -- as folks ran for their lives in Libya, they left behind animals there in Tripoli's zoo.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To get some more water in here, he we laid this plastic pipe on the floor right into the tank with the hippopotami, but it didn't work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Now, after getting so much reaction from you, CNN returned to the zoo for an update. And what we found is a heartbreaking moment of life and death.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Let's get you caught up in what's happening in Libya today. While there's still no word is on where's Moammar Gadhafi is, one of his sons has surfaced. We're talking about Saadi Gadhafi seen with Nic Robertson. Government officials in neighboring Niger confirm that the third son of Moammar Gadhafi is there and he was allowed to crossing the border. Saadi Gadhafi told CNN just a couple of days ago he has not seen his father in months and he supports neither his family's longtime rule nor the opposition figures now in Libya. He promises to hand over suspects wanted by the international criminal court that includes Gadhafi family members.

And while Tripoli fell to opposition fighters just last month, CNN correspondents, producers, cameras were finally able to look around freely without the Libyan handlers, the minders. We showed you this story just a couple of weeks ago on the abandoned Tripoli city zoo and the animals that survived air strikes, near starvation, and worse suffering. That two-minute piece energized animal rescue experts all around the world to rush in to help. Here is CNN's Jill Dougherty.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: In a city slashed by war, a tiger fights for life.

DR. AMIR KHALIL, DIRECTOR, FOUR PAWS INTERNATIONAL: Vitamins, please.

DOUGHERTY: Osama, a Siberian tiger at the Tripoli zoo has been suffering for days.

(On camera) Do you know why he's so sick?

KHALIL: Honestly I don't know. I believe he is old, number one. Number two, it was a lot of stress in the surrounding here.

DOUGHERTY (voice-over): During the battle for Tripoli, there was shooting just outside the zoo. Humans fled. The animals didn't have that option.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were coming from outside and make a big hole.

DOUGHERTY: The zoo's director, Dr. Abdul Fatah Hosni, leads us to the mammal house.

(on camera) Wow. That came right through the roof but none of the animals were injured?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

DOUGHERTY (voice-over): For two weeks there was no water in Tripoli, a disaster for the hippos who had to survive on what little stagnant water was left in their pool.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are shiny, they want water, just swimming, no problem.

DOUGHERTY: Shells still litter the zoo grounds.

(on camera) Right here in the zoo.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's coming from outside, you know.

DOUGHERTY: So just all over the place.

At the height of the conflict, 15 of the staff came here every day to feed and water the animals, risking their own lives to do it. And if they hadn't, many of these animals would have died within three or four days.

(voice-over) Dr. Amir Khalil from an international animal rescue team rushed here from Vienna to help after seeing CNN reports about the fate of these animals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't succeed.

DOUGHERTY (on camera): Did he die?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was too late.

DOUGHERTY (voice-over): Tripoli's zoo was being rebuilt when the war started. The director hopes that will continue. There will be exchanges with zoos around the world, he says, something that stopped during the Gadhafi regime, bringing new animals unscarred by war.

Jill Dougherty, CNN, Tripoli.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: You can help the animals at that zoo. You can help make an impact, and CNN can show you how. Go to CNN.com/impact. Donate, volunteer, learn how to make a difference in the world, including there at the zoo in Tripoli. Again, CNN.com/impact.

Straight ahead today -- Music Monday, I'm talking to one of my favorite bands ever, Death Cab for Cutie. Here's a first. I'm actually doing a little singing of my own.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Happy birthday to you happy birthday to you --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Yes, a little behind the scenes fun there, probably the last time ever you will hear me sing. But what do you do when you find out it's the lead singer's birthday? I had to get candles and cupcakes, right? More with Death Cab right after the break.

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BALDWIN: Well, they may have a strange name, and there's a whole story behind it, but the band I talked to for this week's Music Monday makes music anything but. Death Cab for Cutie is one of my favorite bands. And let me tell you, if you haven't heard their music yet, you are missing out. This Seattle indy rock group has become a long way.

They talked about how they started writing songs in a bedroom in Bellingham, Washington. And the group is now singing for packed venues across the country. Their newest album, Codes and Keys, is lighter than the last one. Chris told me, their impulse and inspiration is still the same. Check them out, music Monday, Death Cab for Cutie.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This band is called Death Cab for Cutie from Seattle, Washington. Thanks for coming out tonight.

(MUSIC)

BALDWIN: Ben, if you bump into someone and you've never met them and they say, oh, death cab, what kind of music do you play? What's your answer?

BEN GIBBARD, DEATH CAB FOR CUTIE: At this point, if someone is not familiar with the band and I'm trying to describe the kind of music that we play, I just say rock music.

BALDWIN: So the uber list just boils it down to a rock band for someone whose never heard it.

GIBBARD: Yes, because that's who we are. We are a rock band. There are those who rock harder than we do. A lot of people do.

CHRIS WALLA, DEATH CAB FOR CUTIE: I think a lot of people do.

GIBBARD: But that's what we are, a rock band.

BALDWIN: How would you describe how your music has evolved?

WALLA: I think the record that just came out earlier this year, Codes and Keys, is something different than came out in 1998. But it is years and years of travel and experience and contracts and trying to figure out how to wrap all of that into recorded and performed music. And our relationships have morphed and changed with one another. But again, the impulse is still kind of the same. It is to try and make the best stuff that we know how to make.

BALDWIN: With you and your writing, do you write your life?

GIBBARD: I have always found it interesting that songwriters are kind of the only type of writer that people take first person as, well this experience happened to the person who's narrating the song. The person narrating the song is the singer, so this song is about their life. And that's not always true. In fact, more times than not, it's not always true.

(MUSIC)

BALDWIN: Are you one of those people who says this is my job. I have done so many albums that I could sit down and write a song? Or does it take you a moment of solitude or hours to craft something?

GIBBARD: I have to see the song in my head like a movie. I start with a couple of lines that are leading in a particular direct. It is only after I can see the forest from the tree and I can see the characters and how they react it each other.

BALDWIN: If you could meet anyone who is sort avenues maker of that ilk, who would it be? Meet anyone and play for them?

GIBBARD: We have yet to meet and play for Barack. That would be good. That's a start.

BALDWIN: Are you on the same basis as the president?

(LAUGHTER)

WALLA: I guess we're not, are we? I guess not. Barack Obama is the president of the United States.

BALDWIN: When you fill arenas like out there, do you still have that pinch-me moment?

GIBBARD: Yes.

BALDWIN: Or is this the norm?

GIBBARD: This is somewhat normal now. In 2011, by mean that's normal, I just feel like we have been able to adapt these songs that were written, you know, in a bedroom in Bellingham almost 15 years ago. You know, to a space like this.

BALDWIN: What is the one thing over the years that has really truly remained the same, whether it's among the band or how you play? What's the biggest difference from then to now?

GIBBARD: Our relationship as a band and as friends and band members has, you know, there have been new elements brought into the dynamic of that relationship. But I think, you know, we remember playing music for the first time in a house in Bellingham, that that felt good. And we have a lost love and respect for each other and realize how lucky we are to get to do this with each other.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Thank you, Death Cab for Cutie. Make sure you check out my blog if you would like it see any of the other Music Mondays we've been doing. We will also post the video from the Death Cab, like singing happy birthday to front man Ben Gifford. Click if you dare, again it is my singing voice and that is a tad frightening -- CNN.com/Brooke.

Next, this -- women, raped, beaten mercilessly, and left with children.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Each time I see this child, I remember what I went through," Huda says. "It's hard to love him. But then I remember he's innocent."

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: They're called "Al Qaeda babies," and the U.S. fears the terrorists are setting up a breeding ground for future suicide bombers. CNN investigates ahead.

Also the 9/11 memorial opening to the public today. And there are some amazing details about the names of these victims and how they were placed on that memorial. Don't miss that, next.

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