Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Ron Paul Interview; U.S. Embassy Attack in Kabul Finally Ends; Virginia Could be Pivotal in Battle for White House; The Facts About Social Security; Unanswered Question on the GOP Presidential Debate; Some Alternatives before Declaring Bankruptcy; Arsenic in an Apple Juice

Aired September 14, 2011 - 11:00   ET


T.J. HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Let's get started here at the top of the hour, shall we?

I am the aforementioned T.J. Holmes. Suzanne Malveaux, we will be checking in with here in just a bit. But let me get you up to speed right now on what we're watching.

Air Force One is about to land here in just a bit at Raleigh-Durham International Airport. North Carolina, an important battleground state, as you know, in the 2012 election. But President Obama is going to visit a small business, one that the White House says will benefit from his new jobs bill. After that, the president will press Congress once again to pass his plan, and pass it immediately, when he delivers a speech at North Carolina State University.

Also, Republicans picking up a New York congressional seat that's been in Democratic hands -- get this -- since 1923. Queens businessman and political newbie Bob Turner handily beat his Democratic opponent. Turner says the victory shows President Obama is in trouble.


BOB TURNER (R), NEW YORK CONGRESSMAN-ELECT: We've been asked by the people of this district to send a message to Washington, and I hope they hear it loud and clear.


TURNER: We have been told this is a referendum, and we're ready to say, Mr. President, we are on the wrong track.


HOLMES: Well, that New York congressional seat was left open when Anthony Weiner resigned. You probably remember why.

Also, new Senate candidate Elizabeth Warren is out introducing herself to voters in Massachusetts today. Democrats see the Harvard professor as their best chance to beat Republican Scott Brown and retake the seat that was once held by Ted Kennedy.

Warren led the panel that oversaw the bank bailout program. President Obama wanted Warren to lead a new Consumer Protection Bureau, but Senate Democrats -- rather, Republicans -- prevented that from happening.

Also today, members of Congress, three Democrats and one Independent, are announcing a bill this hour, one they say will safeguard Social Security. The legislation's goal, keep the retirement program on steady financial footing for the next 75 years. This move comes as Governor Rick Perry, the man who is leading the Republican presidential field right now, attacked Social Security as a Ponzi scheme.

Also, freedom for two Americans held by Iran in doubt today after some hopeful news earlier this week. A lawyer for Josh Fattal and Shane Bauer said bail had been set and the men would be released once the million dollars was paid. But today, an Iranian news agency reports a judge is only considering bail. Fattal and Bauer say they accidentally strayed into Iran while hiking two years ago.


Well, this went on for some 20 long hours. Afghan and NATO forces have finally now defeated the Taliban, who attacked the American Embassy in Kabul. All six are dead. The militants targeted the embassy from the top floors of an abandoned building nearby. That attack and three others in Kabul Tuesday killed seven Afghan police officers and civilians.

And the lawyer who won an acquittal for Casey Anthony is now stepping into another high-profile case. Jose Baez says he's been hired by the man who's the only suspect in the disappearance of a Maryland woman in Aruba. Aruban police have been holding Gary Giordano for more than a month. He says his companion, Robyn Gardner, vanished while snorkeling, but police suspect otherwise.

Meanwhile, Casey Anthony's parents are speaking out for the first time since that not guilty verdict. Cindy Anthony is telling Dr. Phil her daughter suffered from seizures or perhaps a brain tumor. She thinks this may have contributed to Casey's party girl behavior.


DR. PHIL MCGRAW, "DR. PHIL": Your theory is that she is a victim in this in some way, a victim of an illness, a tumor, a -- or something?

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY'S MOTHER: I truly believe that, because there was never any signs that Casey was an unfit mother. She was an awesome mother.

Looking back now, I'm almost wondering if she didn't develop postpartum schizophrenia or some type of issue after her pregnancy, a hormonal type of illness. I mean, and that's my perception, because none of those behaviors were exhibited prior to her pregnancy.


HOLMES: You'll remember a jury acquitted Casey Anthony of murder in the death of her daughter, 2-year-old Caylee, in July. Dr. Phil asked the Anthonys if they thought their daughter was involved in Caylee's death. They never gave a direct answer to that question.

Also, European astronomers say they found 50 new planets outside our solar system. They call 16 of them Super Earths. Scientists are particularly fascinated with one Super Earth about 35 light years away. Its distance from its star suggests it could have water, which is necessary for life, or at least life as humans know it.

This is your chance to "Talk Back" on one of the big stories of the day. Today's question: Is government responsible for those in need?

Our Carol Costello is in New York for us.

Carol, hello.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, T.J. Good morning to you.

Here are some depressing numbers for you this morning. America's poverty rate has jumped to 15.1 percent. That's over 46 million people.

What defines poverty? If a couple has two kids and a family income of $22,314 per year, they are poor.

Ann Valdez is living in poverty. A single mom, she gets by thanks to food stamps and Medicaid.


ANN VALDEZ, LIVING IN POVERTY: We are in poverty. We have educations, we have abilities, we have aspirations, we have families. We have the same thing that apple pie America has.


CROWLEY: Maybe you sympathize with Ms. Valdez. Maybe that's the best you can do in these tough economic times.

Personal responsibility is hot these days. Government aid is not. You certainly heard that in the Tea Party debate when Wolf Blitzer asked what should happen to a hypothetical 30-year-old man who had been injured in a car accident and had no insurance.


REP. RON PAUL (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That's what freedom is all about, taking your own risks. This whole idea that you have to prepare and take care of everybody --


WOLF BLITZER, MODERATOR: But, Congressman, are you saying that society should just let him die?




CROWLEY: You heard the cheers there. There are some in America who ask, why should we, the taxpayers, help those who don't take responsibility for their own lives? Why should the government dish out long, long-term unemployment benefit or food stamps or welfare?

So the "Talk Back" question today: What is our government's responsibility to those in need? I'll read your comments later this hour.

HOLMES: Carol, thank you so much. We'll check in with you shortly.

And also now, to our viewers, here's a rundown of some of the stories that we are covering.

First, the Taliban's daylong siege on the U.S. Embassy in Kabul is over.


Our Suzanne Malveaux has toured the building insurgents used to launch their attacks. She'll join us live.

Also, a new report on the future of Social Security doesn't look too good. Our money experts will tell us exactly when the funds run dry.

Also, presidential candidate Ron Paul, he riles up the crowd at the CNN/Tea Party debate, and joins me live to talk about that moment and his ideas.

Also, why filing for bankruptcy could hurt more than it could help you.

Also, a little later, Doc Oz, he will be here to talk about his study on arsenic levels in apple juice.

Stay with me.


HOLMES: At 10 minutes past the hour now, I want you to take a look at new video just in from that insurgent attack in Afghanistan.

Now, this was after -- just after a rocket-propelled grenade explodes near a school bus in the heart of Kabul. You saw some children there. None of the kids seriously hurt.

Militants were targeting the U.S. Embassy and NATO headquarters. It took almost a full day of fighting before Afghan and coalition forces killed those attackers. The Taliban claiming responsibility for this siege. The U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, though, downplaying the attack.


RYAN CROCKER, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO AFGHANISTAN: These were five guys that rumbled into town with RPGs under their car seats. There are unconfirmed reports that they were wearing burqas as disguise. They got into a building and did some harassment fire on us and on ISAF. You know, this really is not a very big deal.


HOLMES: All right. Our Suzanne Malveaux has been inside that building where insurgents launched that attack.

Suzanne, I'll get you to respond there if you can. I don't know if you were able to hear that sound bite, but to hear a U.S. official there saying this was really not a big deal -- that was his way of characterizing it -- is that the way that you would characterize it?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, sure, he said it's no big deal. We spoke with the ambassador earlier when he responded to another attack, and they're really trying to downplay this. But it is a very big deal to the families of the seven who were killed in that attack and the 17 who were injured. And clearly to a lot of Afghan people who are on the ground who were fearing for their lives.

I mean, when you think about what happened, this was downtown, it was in a residential area. It was in an area where you had a NATO compound, the U.S. Embassy, intelligence offices. It's supposed to be a very secure area.

So for the people here, it is a very big deal. And it's a very big deal if they are not able to actually secure that place and have U.S. and NATO troops eventually leaving.

So it is quite significant. It's understandable that that's how they're playing it, because they want to bolster the Afghan police and the Afghan army and say, look, you guys are doing a good job, because you're going to have to do a good job in the future.

We had a chance to go down, T.J., to the building to learn some details about how all of this unfolded, how it came about, and really what kind of job they did in that 19, 20-hour span. I want you to look.


MALVEAUX: Six guys in a vehicle pulled up. Five of them were wearing burqas to try to disguise themselves as women to bypass security. They took the burqas off, brandished their weapons, and then they all entered this building.

Six police officers guarded this building. You can see this is where they stayed -- the television, the remote control. You also see the bedding here.

This is where the terrorists on the second floor first confronted the police. They shot one officer and then they threw him over the ledge.

This is the sixth floor. And when the terrorists got up here, you can see they cut all the power lines, the phones, the lights, to make sure that it was dark, that they didn't have any communication with the outside world. Also, we're told one of them was injured here and tended to his wounds while waiting for help.

Here on the 12th floor is where the final showdown was. There's evidence of it everywhere.

You've got the spent shell casings, you have got pieces from explosive grenades. And if you take a look around, there are hundreds and hundred of holes on the wall here. Clearly, a fierce firefight that went on here for hours, well into the morning, to get the terrorists.

I'm told this is where the last terrorist was killed. You can see the old scarf that's left behind, holes in it, an empty water bottle, an old shoe with bloodstains. And on the wall, evidence of him being shot here, even splattered brain matter in the gravel.

Now, I want to give you some perspective. We are in the building on the 12th floor on the east side. Here's what the terrorists saw.

If you take a look and you go beyond, about a half-mile, you see that orange building? That is the U.S. Embassy. If you go over to the left, the white building, that's the NATO compound. This essentially gave them a clear shot to continue firing throughout the evening.


MALVEAUX: So, T.J., you can see how it's set up. Really, I mean, because it's under construction, the building that was abandoned, there's open space, 360, all around, where you can see residents. You see all of those primary buildings, those targets. And that is where they actually were able to stage their attack and to do so for hours.

Now, you heard from the ambassador. He said, well, we were harassed, it was no big deal. I talked to the governor of Kabul. He kind of said -- tried to say the same thing, like, hey, it all worked out in the end. The police were able to get these guys. It could have been a lot worse.

But I also talked to the Afghan people, and I talked to a couple of officials who were not happy with how this all went down. They essentially said, look, the communications could have been a lot better between the international forces, as well as -- and the local forces, that they were not talking well enough to each other. And then there was another fear with the afghan police, that they were just kind of shooting randomly all over the place, and that some citizens feared that they were going to get caught in the crossfire and were not going to come out well in all of this. So, you take a look at both sides, T.J., there's a lot of work that needs to be done on the ground here to make sure that the Afghan people are secure, and certainly that U.S. and NATO combat troops can come home in a timely fashion so that the Afghans could take over their own security. A lot of work, as we saw over the last 20 hours, because of what had happened -- T.J.

HOLMES: Now, are they taking a look at this as some kind of a security oversight, that this building is just sitting there, sitting there for a while, unsecured, open spaces, like you mentioned, and it's -- with that proximity to the U.S. Embassy and other important buildings?

MALVEAUX: Well, you know what they're doing? Is they're certainly taking a second look at this, because this is a building for three years that was pretty much abandoned. Right? It was under construction, bad things happened, didn't go so well, so it sat there.

What they did have is they did have six Afghan police who were guarding that building for that very reason, because it is such an important area. They might have thought that that was secure enough.

I think they realized that is not the case, because, clearly, six guys from the Taliban were able to commandeer this building, take out those police, killing one of them, and causing quite chaos, a chaotic situation for this neighborhood and for this community.

HOLMES: All right.

Suzanne Malveaux for us in Kabul.

Suzanne, thank you once again.

We turn back here to the U.S. And Virginia could be pivotal in next year's battle for the White House. And Republican front-runner Rick Perry, he's there today.

We're live in Richmond for our political update. That's next.


HOLMES: Well, Texas Governor Rick Perry is on the trail today in Virginia. After a speech at Liberty University, the Republican presidential candidate is making a stop in Richmond.

And Jim Acosta, part of "The Best Political Team on Television," is in Richmond.

Always good to see you, Jim.

He's still leading in the polls, and he was kind of, like he said, even a pinata at some of the last -- or a couple of the last debates. So how is he still handling being out front and being the target?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, this is an interesting event today, T.J., because he is here in Virginia, which is not exactly a terribly important primary state for the Republican Party. That primary is scheduled for March 12th. But it is a very important battleground state in the general election, so it has some people wondering, is Rick Perry showing some of his Texas-size confidence by coming to the Commonwealth of Virginia before taking care of business in places like Iowa and New Hampshire?

But there is an important element from a political standpoint to Rick Perry's campaign in coming to Virginia. And that is that he went to Jerry Falwell's university down in Lynchburg, Virginia, south of here in Richmond, at Liberty University, to give a speech to students there. And that is a very influential university, and Jerry Falwell is obviously very influential in the Evangelical conservative movement in America.

And he did talk about his faith in front of the crowd, which listened to his speech just about an hour ago. But Perry, who was obviously campaigning on the issue of jobs, delivered an economic message, as well. Here's what he had to say.


GOV. RICK PERRY (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You have the right like every American to speak your mind. You have the right to insist on change, to tell the people in power that you will not have your inheritance spent or your future mortgaged.

Your voice matters. Use it.

This country is your country, as well. Don't leave it to a bunch of Washington politicians to tell you how to live your life.



ACOSTA: Now this is a Virginia GOP fundraiser that Rick Perry will be talking to in about an hour from now. He is supposed to be handed some boots from the governor of the state, Bob McDonnell, who is now the head of the Republican Governors Association. That is the job that Rick Perry had, that he was basically doing double duty with while he was also governor of Texas.

And just to give you a signal as to how important Rick Perry thinks Virginia is, he was given this invitation, organizers say, before he was a candidate for president, T.J., when he was still just the governor of Texas. But what we understand from talking to organizers is that Perry accepted that invitation just a couple of weeks ago. So the organizers of this event had just two weeks to get all of this ready for Rick Perry -- T.J.

HOLMES: All right.

Our Jim Acosta for us in Virginia.

Thank you so much.

And to our viewers, for the latest political news, you know the spot:

But at 23 minutes past the hour, here's your chance to "Choose the News." Text "22360" for the story you want to see.

You can text "1" for China's invisible workforce. Not everybody in China is benefiting from the country's massive economic growth. Get an inside look at living conditions for some of China's migrant workers.

Also, you can text "2" for border tours. Want to witness the harsh realities of the U.S.-Mexican border? Now it's as simple as buying a ticket for an up-close look of your own.

And you can text "3" for the bathroom wars. Why not go to the bathroom in style? An online contest is rating America's best restrooms.

Again, you can vote by texting "22360." Text "1" for "China's Invisible Workers"; "2" for "Border Tours"; "3" for "The Best Bathroom."

The winning story airs next hour.

Well, if you are looking for Social Security to help pay the bills when you retire, will the money be there? We'll find out where the program stands now and what needs to be done to keep it from going broke.


HOLMES: Here's what's ahead "On the Rundown" today.

Next, can you count on your Social Security benefits to be there when you retire? Take a look at where the government program stands today.

Then, Republican presidential hopeful Ron Paul, he joins us. We'll ask him about the comment he made on the 9/11 terror attacks that got him booed at Tuesday night's debate.

Also, Dr. Oz making a house call right here with a warning about store-bought apple juice.

Well, saving Social Security is already one of the hot issues in the battle for the Republican presidential nomination. GOP front-runner Rick Perry has called the program a Ponzi scheme and a failure. On Capitol Hill, three Democrats and an Independent are putting together a plan they claim will safeguard Social Security for another 75 years.


SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), VERMONT: Despite a lot of right-wing rhetoric to the country, Social Security is not going broke and has not contributed one penny to our serious deficit problem. According to the Social Security Administration, Social Security today has a $2.5 trillion surplus. Surplus. While the CBO -- and the CBO has reported that Social Security can pay out every benefit owed to every eligible American for the next 27 years.


HOLMES: So what's the truth here really? Our Alison Kosik joins me now.

Alison, always good to see you.

So what about some truth here? If nobody touches the program, leaves it alone, how long can it last under its current system?

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: And T.J., I'm glad you're sitting, because you pay into this. Every hard-working American pays into this. And guess what? The Social Security Administration says Social Security is going to run dry in 25 years, in the year 2036.

You know what the number one problem is? Our aging population.

Remember, Social Security, it's a self-supporting program. And workers pay for it through payroll taxes. But the thing is, as baby boomers, they get older, those pay-outs will soar. And since baby boomers have smaller families, there won't be as many active workers to pay into the program.

Now, the Social Security Administration, it breaks down the numbers like this. Take a look.

Right now, about 42 million older Americans are out there. In 2036, that will almost double to 78 million.

Also, there's a fund that the Social Security Administration can tap into, and it does. It's the payroll tax surplus that's built up over the years. But guess what, T.J.? That will run dry, as well -- T.J.

HOLMES: So what happens, Alison, in 2036? Just money stops going out?

KOSIK: No, no. I mean, it's not going to happen like that, but they won't be able to pay 100 percent of them. A portion will be paid.

About 77 percent of Social Security checks will be paid because the government is still going to have income -- payroll taxes from current workers. But the thing is, it's not going to be enough to cover all of those retirees -- T.J.

HOLMES: So what are our options right now?

KOSIK: Yes, that's the big question here. You know, the options, quite frankly, they aren't very popular.

And the Social Security Administration acknowledges that. They propose this. There could be a couple of things. Increase the retirement age, with -- which that doesn't go over well, or increase payroll taxes, or both. But the Social Security Administration warns that the longer Congress sits on this and waits, the harder it's going to be. Changes really need to be phased in slowly, so people can get used to it and they can prepare. But you know what? The warning bell, it's already sounded. Last year, Social Security paid out more in benefits than it took in, in taxes. It actually had to tap into the trust fund of those reserves. It's the first time that's happened. The question is, will anybody listen to these alarm bells? -- T.J.

HOLMES: All right, Alison Kosik sounding those alarm bells for us, thank you, as always.

And do want to remind our viewers that it is that time for you to "Choose the News." Here are your options. You can text 22360 for the story you want see. So, text one if you want to see China's invisible workers. You can see a reality behind a made-in-China label. Also you can text two if you want to see the story about border tours. Yes, you can actually buy a ticket and go take a tour of the U.S.- Mexico. And then you can text three for the best bathroom competition going on to figure out where is the best place to use the toilet -- 22360 is where you send those texts.

Also, stay with me. Coming up, he has been making some headlines and turning some heads and even getting some boos at the Republican debates. Yes, Ron Paul joins me live. Stay with me.


HOLMES: All right, you have been weighing in on our "Talkback" question today. Is the government responsible for those in need?

Carol Costello has been going through your answers.

What are they saying?

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, they have a lot to say about this one, T.J., so let's get going, this from Ben.

"The government should serve as a bridge between assistance and self- sufficiency. Mechanisms should be in place to move recipients along a continuous path toward self-reliance."

This from J.J.: "There's a difference between the federal government being a safety net vs. a way of life. In the ideal world, every American would pull themselves up by their bootstraps, but we live in the real world. And the reality is it's just not quite that simple for everybody."

This from Arthur: "If we can afford welfare programs in the form of subsidies for highly profitable business corporations, then we should also help in real need."

This from Martin: "I'm against handouts. Do not hand them cash to do as they see fit. Give grants for education or job training. As the old saying goes, give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime."

And this from Tom: "If the government can't help our most at-risk citizens, then what's the point of even having a government in the first place? We might as well live in armed survivalist compounds, like the libertarian anarchists want us to do."

Please, keep the conversation going, I will be back with you, oh, some time five minutes past the top of the hour.


HOLMES: All right, Carol, we will see you again here shortly.

And to our viewers, stand by. We promised you Ron Paul. I saw him out the corner of my eye. He's getting miked up, get the earpiece in. So we will be chatting with him right after the break. There he is, the Republican presidential candidate. Ask him about his debate performance the other night and actually getting booed at the debate for one of his answers.

Stay with me. Our conversation is next.


HOLMES: Well, as you may know by now, Ron Paul not really once to mince words. The straight-talking Republican presidential candidate, though, got some boos, a few jeers at the CNN/Tea Party debate a couple of nights ago. This happened during a heated exchange about 9/11 and what was behind the terror attacks. Take a listen.


RICK SANTORUM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And they want to kill us because of who we are and what we stand for. And we stand for American exceptionalism, we stand for freedom and opportunity for everybody around the world, and I am not ashamed to do that.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thirty seconds, Mr. Paul.

REP. RON PAUL (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As long as this country follows that idea, we're going to be under a lot of danger. This whole idea that the whole Muslim world is responsible for this, and they're attacking us because we're free and prosperous, that is just not true.


PAUL: Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda have been explicit -- they have been explicit, and they wrote and said that we attacked America because you had bases on our holy land in Saudi Arabia, you do not give Palestinians fair treatment, and you have been bombing...


PAUL: I didn't say that. I'm trying to get you to understand what the motive was behind the bombing.


HOLMES: And Congressman Paul joins me now live from the Capitol.

Sir, thank you for being here.

So, let's just start with that. Are people misinterpreting or maybe even oversimplifying what you're saying? Because some people took your response as saying the U.S. brought 9/11 on itself.

Is that what you were saying?

PAUL: Obviously not, because I'm an American, you're an American. I don't blame you. But I do blame bad policy. And there's quite a bit of difference.

But, you know, what I'm saying is not new or strange. It's been around a long time.


PAUL: The CIA is actually the one that introduced the term blowback. And the 9/11 Commission acknowledged this. And, matter of fact, after 9/11, we removed that base from Saudi Arabia. So it's nothing new.

But I think, if you ignore the real cause, and claim that we're being attacked because we're free and prosperous, we're missing the boat. As a physician, I always have to know the cause of the disease to correct it. And to ignore the cause doesn't solve our problems whatsoever.

But to turn this around and say that we're exceptional and we have to do this, I think we are exceptional. I just resent and resist the temptation to force our exceptionalism on other people through force. Once you do that, you lose all your credibility as being exceptional.

HOLMES: But haven't al Qaeda, bin Laden in particular, in a letter he wrote to the United States, he did talk about the Palestinians and how there's a lack of support for them. But he also mentioned America's freedoms and what we're allowed to do. He mentioned things like gambling and how women flaunt themselves around.

He did mention some of those freedoms and wanted to impose Islam on the rest of the world. So isn't that -- the freedoms the United States have, don't you acknowledge that bin Laden himself has also said, this is why we attacked you as well?

PAUL: Well, there's only been a couple individuals who have studied this, Michael Scheuer, who was the CIA agent that studied bin Laden more than anybody else, along with Robert Pape, who has investigated and detailed every suicide terrorist attack that he could find.

And he says 98 percent of the suicide terrorism attacks against us, the main motivation was occupation, and religious beliefs had nothing to do with it.

HOLMES: But we're talking about 9/11. (CROSSTALK)

PAUL: Wait. Wait. Yes. But you don't see suicide terrorists coming out of Iran, and they are radical Islamists. But they do not -- come from Saudi Arabia. But they -- they come from places that feel abused, and they did.

I mean, 14 out of the 19 came from Saudi Arabia because of the bases there and our puppet government there. And the CIA was aware of this, know about it. And for us to just say and be in denial and say it has nothing to do with it and that they come here because we're -- why don't they go after the countries that are freer than us? Why don't they go after Switzerland or why don't they go after Sweden or Ireland or somebody?

They don't attack those countries because they're free and prosperous. So it makes no sense, because we have to -- in order to justify our policy in the Middle East, Islam has to be the enemy, and I think that's wrong. There are radicals in the Islamic community and in the Muslim community, but that is not the sole reasons why we have this problem.

HOLMES: Yes. Well, I will leave that topic then.

I will turn to another part of the debate from the other night, and another part where it certainly got the crowd riled up. And this is when our Wolf Blitzer was asking you the question about what you would do, the hypothetical about a 30-year-old who chose not to have medical insurance.

Let me get your reaction first, sir, to when Wolf Blitzer asked you. He said, would you just let him die? And several people in the crowd, you could hear some clearly yelling out "Yeah," and applauding that, yes, we should let him die.

What is your reaction to people in the crowd having that attitude?


PAUL: Well, no, I can't -- you know, it's so overly-simplified to do -- to explain a philosophy on how you take care of people in 30 or 60 seconds.

All I know is, if you look at history and if you compare good medical compare and if you compare famine, the countries that are more socialistic have more famines. If you look at Africa, they don't have any free market systems and property rights. And they have famines and no medical care.

So, the freer the system, the better the health care. And for somebody to turn around and say there's one individual who didn't have this care, you know, all of a sudden you hate people and you're going to let them die, I spent a lifetime in medicine. To turn that around like that is just foolish.

And, besides, I -- and tried to explain that, and that I practiced medicine in a time when we didn't have government dependency, which is now bankrupt, by the way, and they were taken care of. There were no people getting out on the street, nobody getting thrown out onto the streets. People got taken care of.

And churches and other volunteer organizations -- I still have a hospital that is a charity hospital in my district that is a burn hospital. And nobody has to pay if they don't want to or they can't pay.


PAUL: So, this whole idea that the world will not provide for people if you don't depend on government, freedom provides more prosperity and better health care than all the socialism and welfarism (ph) in the world.

HOLMES: But I guess you hit on it there, sir. Who pays - somebody still has to pay for those folks through charity. Somebody still has to pay for them as a neighbor. If someone makes a conscious decision, I'm not going to take care of myself. So the question I guess certainly Wolf was trying to ask you, is your option just then to let them die? And I was asking what was your response or reaction to the crowd saying, "yes, that's what we had should do"? It doesn't look like -

PAUL: In my answer, he said something about you mean you should do nothing, that society has no responsibility? I said no. But I understand it differently. I want the maximum medical care and the maximum prosperity for everybody, and it doesn't come from big government welfare, bankruptcies that we have now. What good is the government system of compare if it goes broke?

I mean, our quality of care is down drastically in these last years. All this idea, that government is always going to be there to take care of us. This whole idea of turning it around and saying, oh, you people who believe in freedom, you have no compassion. I believe nobody can compete with me about compassion because I know and understand how free markets and sound money and a sensible foreign policy is the most compassionate system ever known to mankind. So if you care about people, you have to have, look to the freedom philosophy and limited government.

HOLMES: Alright. We will have to leave it here. And I want to get your answer because a young man asked a question that I thought of one of the best I've heard in a debate. And he didn't really get an answered. It was the young man who got up and said out of every dollar that I earn, how much of it do you think I should keep? And he didn't get a lot of answers to that. So I'll ask you that, sir. Of every dollar that an American earns, how much do you think he or she should be allowed to keep?

PAUL: Well, I didn't get to answer it. I'm delighted you asked the question. My answer is 100 percent because I don't believe in the income tax. It's a bad system of collecting revenues for the government. HOLMES: 100 percent. All right then sir. We will see. I think a lot of people liked that answer actually, Congressman Paul. We do appreciate it.

PAUL: I hope so.

HOLMES: We appreciate you being here. We'll certainly see you down the road.

PAUL: Thank you.

HOLMES: All right. We're about 13 minutes to the top of the hour, quick break. We'll be right back.


HOLMES: As we get close to the top of the hour, ten minutes away, we all know that bankruptcy has been on the rise as the economy has been on its down the past several years. And the last resort for a lot of people, Alison Kosik with me here. Alison, what are some options, some alternatives before we that last final and step that nobody wants to take, a bankruptcy?

ALISON KOSIK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, yes. You said it, T.J. So, we reported this yesterday, the new study showing that the rate of college graduates filing for bankruptcy increasing by 20 percent last year. So sure, bankruptcy can be a way to get out of the mountain of debt. But yes, it comes at a cost a bankruptcy stays on your credit report for ten years. And knocks about 300 points off your credit score and will affect your ability to get loans, credit cards and even possibly a job.

And if you look at this chart from John Ulzheimer of, you can see the range of the credit scores scale. And if you're considering bankruptcy, chances are, your credit score, it's already suffered from mis-payments. So, go ahead and look at where your credit score would be if you do go bankrupt.

Now, the major difference between chapter seven and chapter 13 is all about how much you pay. Chapter seven is a two to three months process where your property is sold to pay your debt like credit card or medical bills. Chapter 13 is more of a reorganization of your debt. It takes about three to five years. And you pay a portion of your debts under a court order plan which allows you to stay in your homes. But if you know what, it doesn't matter which type you file, neither will wipe away government student loans child support or tax debts.

Now, if you want to learn what your options are, find a certified consumer bankruptcy attorney in your area at the American board of certification Web site. You can go to

Now, if you're looking for alternatives, Lynnette Khalfani-Cox, she's the money coach. You got yourself out of $100,000 in debt. She says before you decide on going for bankruptcy, first reorganize your budget. Figure out where you're wasting money. Next, negotiate directly with your creditors to work out a payment plan. And if doesn't work, find a credited credit counseling service and you can go to the national foundation for credit counseling at or debt management program which won't impact your credit rating or score.

And of course, of you have done all of your options, look at your family members and friends for help. Consider selling certain items that you don't need anymore. And even take on a second job. You know do whatever you can do because you have to remember T.J. bankruptcy as you said, should really be a last resort. T.J.

HOLMES: Alison Kosik for us. Thank you as always.

You know the saying, an apple a day keeps the doctor away. But apparently, I haven't following the advice because a doctor has just stopped by to see me. Doc Oz, Doctor Oz is in the house.

But we're actually going to be talking about apple juice today, an investigation into arsenic. He will tell me about his findings when he talks to me, next.


HOLMES: All right, as we get closer to top of the hour, don't forget to vote for todays choose the news winner 122360, where you need to text for the story you need to see. Text 1, for Chinese invisible workers. The migrant workers behind China's booming economy. You can text 2, for border tours. You can buy ticket to see the daily drama of immigration battles on the U.S. Mexican border. And then text 3 for the best bathroom. Yes, in online site rate the best rest room in the country. That winning story airs next.

What are you laughing at, Doctor Oz? I couldn't help it. He started to chuckle a little bit on that last story. We have Doctor Oz. You know him from the award winning show. Good to have you here in studio with us.

DOCTOR MEHMET OZ, HOST, THE DR. OZ SHOW: Thank you very much.

HOLMES: We've got a serious topic to talk to you about. Arsenic and apple juice. You don't want those two thing together, at least if your pair them in buying apple juice so, what were you looking for in this study and what did you find?

OZ: Well, on today's show, we decided that we would tack al topic that I've been bearing rumors about for quite awhile. And as we take Oprah's spot in most of the country, I wanted to make shows bigger and louder and invest the effort, in doing these big investigated endeavors. So we decided today to figure out is there really arsenic in our apple juice. The apple juice we've given to our kids, that so many adults take without having realizing in so many of our foods. So, we sent out 36 samples from all over the country. And we found that, just to give you some base line, the EPA allows ten parts per billion of arsenic in our drinking water. That's the most we all to have. We found in 10 out of the 36 samples that we personally looked at from a credit laboratory, the levels were higher than that. HOLMES: Ok. Now, the apple juice that you're talking about, this is stuff you often go to the store and bolt the every body's buying as we speak.

OZ: it's routine, regular apple juice that folks are picking up all the time. And, you may ask, how is that possible? Why would anybody do that? There's no evil empire out there. The reality is that in America, we ban the use of arsenic as a pesticide. Arsenic is nationally available in environment but in low level. We ban this use as a pesticide because we're worried about it, because it does cause cancer. It does cause heart disease. It can cause neurologic problems. So, we don't want to have it around especially chronically. Turns out, most of the countries in the world have not banned arsenic. So, there any expense of pesticide in China, in South America, and many parts of the world. Sixty percent of the apples used for apple juice in this country have come from overseas.


OZ: So if you're not checking it, it can step in to the supply.

HOLMES: OK, now the FDA. You all know what kind where going at. And they certainly, they have called you irresponsible. And they are saying you shouldn't be airing the show. But part of the argument is that, we could have a different standard for arsenic levels in water and apple juice, because arsenic is more natural occurring in apple juice. Organic versus inorganic arsenic. Organic, you don't have to worry about it. Inorganic, that's the problem. So they say that's why there's a different.

OZ: You know, we have made numerous (inaudible) before we taped the show. We made a bulb. The apple juice in this there NDFA (ph). We have been getting bit of reports coming out. We had the whole conversation on Please check it out. I want you to make your own decision. What I'm asking for here is clarity. I think folks have a right to know that there's arsenic in our apple juice. The amount of arsenic that's appropriate we need to talk about. I have had open invitation, I'll say it again. The FDA apple juice in the street, they trade groups are all welcome on my show. I'll have this conversation. But what I don't want to do is have the American public confused as we quibble about whether inorganic or organic arsenic.

HOLMES: No, you Doc, you're the one who has doc in your name. But, is organic, is there not a difference between organic and inorganic? But the organic is not the stuff we should be worried about, is that?

OZ: Organic arsenic, our body copes as well. But inorganic stuffs, stuffs we worried about. I'm absolutely on base with that. The question that I need to find out, I've been tracking - I asked for this information a couple of weeks ago and I was told to fill up more information I can get.

So, you know, we reran because we kept being told that the arsenic levels that aren't saying what they are. We have, one of our affiliates, the Washington affiliates send that - on their own. We weren't involved with the 30 more samples from that area they found the exact same thing we found. Ten out of 30 had elevated levels of arsenic in their samples.

HOLMES: You know, the other part of the FDA that's coming after you, and I should post some of those letters that they have written to guys. That they read through them. But they are saying part of the argument is that the stuff you're testing and the arsenic level you come back we don't know which it is. And so if it is just an arsenic level that's high, well that could be organic arsenic. So, which is it that you're tested in checked out?

OZ: We're looking at both. And we shared our methodology and the laboratory information. It's all on our site. We have given it to the FDA. We can give it to the apple juice industry. Please, I just want to have the conversation. What I don't want to have folks to decide on their own, or it's too complicated to figure out because it's not. American apples don't have arsenic on them. Please someone tell me why we ban arsenic on our apples and we're still taking apples from other countries into this nation.

And if someone at least be looking at the border once in a while if what we're getting is really what it's supposed to be. So companies do not have arsenic in their apple juice, others do. So, there's got some methodology to figure it out. I think when we enter this theory, it was a morass. And we're getting some clarity. I'm all about consistency T.J. you know, I'm all about clarity. I just need to have folks talking to honest about what's really going on.

HOLMES: Should people be worried about the apple juice they're drinking right now, as we wrap up? This might be scaring the heck out of folks right now.

OZ: It is scaring some folks. I think folks have a right to know. I think we have not identified any child getting sick from arsenic poisoning, so I'm OK on that.


OZ: But I do think it's very important for us to recognize that if there are going to be issues, they will happen over long periods of time. We have time. We've got good people working in the FDA and apple juice companies. They can make the change happen that we want to see. Let's have the conversation.

HOLMES: Dr. Oz, good to have you here. Good chat. I hadn't talked to you in quite some time.

OZ: I like the way the set looks.

HOLMES: You like this?

OZ: Yes, it's nice.

Come on back any time.

OZ: The digs look good. HOLMES: It's not quite Oz-like, but we try.

Good to see you, as always.