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President Obama Lays Out Deficit Reduction Plan; Earthquake Strikes Guatemala; Pieces of Plane from Reno Air Race Crash Recovered; Merits of Canada to U.S. Oil Pipeline Debated; Singer/Songwriter Justin Vernon Interviewed

Aired September 19, 2011 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And hello to all of you.

Want to continue right where Randi and Peter left off, talking about the president's plan. Here is a line that he used today from the Rose Garden.

It was this: "It's not class warfare. It's math." That is President Obama's message on how to put a dent in our debt. The president today laying out his plan, actually just a couple of hours ago, as I mentioned there, in the Rose Garden. And at the heart of his message, our nation's wealthiest Americans, our wealthiest corporations should pay more.

He's calling for about $3 trillion in savings. About $1.5 trillion of that would come from new revenue mostly generated from higher taxes on the wealthiest Americans. It's actually being called the Buffett rule after billionaire investor Warren Buffett. You will remember he is the one who had been saying he doesn't pay as high a tax rate as his own secretary. Thus, millionaires and billionaires should be paying more. Here's how the president explained his plan today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have to prioritize. Both parties agree that we need to reduce the deficit by the same amount, by $4 trillion. So what choices are we going to make to reach that goal? Either we ask the wealthiest Americans to pay their fair share in taxes or we're going to have to ask seniors to pay more for Medicare. We can't afford to do both.

Either we gut education and medical research or we've got to reform the tax code so that the most profitable corporations have to give up tax loopholes that other companies don't get. We can't afford to do both.

This is not class warfare. It's math.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So let's take this a step further. Let me explain his reference to class warfare.

A lot of top Republicans say that that's what the president's plan is. They say that asking the wealthiest Americans to pay more taxes is just simply unfair. And they reject any tax increase saying it's bad for our fragile economy.

The president sent his treasury secretary out to sell his plan. And the first question he faced, why put forward tax increases the administration knows the GOP will reject? Here's his response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIMOTHY GEITHNER, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: I think Republicans and Democrats all agree that we have a long-term deficit problem and we have to bring that down to earth.

We all agree on the basic magnitude of the cuts and changes you're going to need over time, roughly $4 trillion over 10 years. Why $4 trillion? That's what you need to bring the deficits down to a level we can sustain over time, to a level where the debt as a share of the economy as a whole is no longer growing, stabilizes, starts to come down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner had some backup to sell the plan, Budget Director Jack Lew, and his message was that everybody has to sacrifice to get our financial house in order.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACK LEW, WHITE HOUSE BUDGET DIRECTOR: I think that if you look at the details of what's in the plan that the president has sent to the Congress this morning, there is a lot of pain and it's spread. It's spread broadly and we think fairly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Starting to see the pattern here. Share the pain, assign the blame. That task fell to White House Press Secretary Jay Carney, who reminded reporters that President Obama inherited a big mess when he got into office.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president spoke and has spoken clearly about the decisions that were taken in the previous administration that took surpluses and turned them into deficits -- massive deficits, and they include the two tax cuts; they include an unfunded Medicare prescription drug program; they include two wars put on credit cards.

Now, we've spent a lot of time in this administration cleaning up the tent -- the elephant tent, if you will. And it hasn't always been an easy task because it has required some very tough decisions that weren't always popular, but had to be done to prevent a Great Depression from happening again in the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: So everyone out today staking out their positions.

But here what is new. The super committee, that bipartisan group of lawmakers trying to come up with that solution to the deficit crisis, their next meeting keep in mind is this coming Thursday. And the president says the plan he revealed today is simply meant as a blueprint to help them out.

Here to help me out, chief political analyst Gloria Borger.

Gloria, I was watching you earlier. You listened to the president today, part of our network's special coverage, and you heard the president say he will veto any plan that proposes to cut Social Security, cut Medicare, if it doesn't include higher taxes on the wealthy. Is that a real threat, Gloria Borger, or might it be more political posturing, political maneuvering?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Can I say all of the above, Brooke?

BALDWIN: Yes, you may.

BORGER: Because I think when you make a threat like that and you say that I cannot accept cutbacks in entitlements unless they're accompanied by some kind of tax increases, I think you better be prepared to do that.

So I think he clearly is prepared to do that. On the other hand, it is a political statement because what he is doing is he's saying to his base, which has been upset with him of late, as you know, that, I'm fighting for you, because this is a president who's been accused of being too passive or negotiating with himself.

And so he's doing neither of those today. He's laying down a political marker and that's all it is, Brooke. It's a political marker, saying, if this were a perfect world, this is what I would like to see happen.

You will notice there are not any Social Security changes in there.

BALDWIN: Right.

BORGER: The only changes in Medicare are to providers, not beneficiaries. So he's kind of left that off the table. I bet it goes back on.

BALDWIN: Also today, the president talked a lot about tax reform, talked about needing to get significant tax reform achieved. But check your calendar. It's September. What are the chances of that actually happening this year? This year ends in 90 days.

BORGER: Well, these people have some real deadlines and it's the super committee we're talking about. Forget the president and the rest of the Congress.

This super committee has a deadline. They're supposed to come up with a plan by Thanksgiving. And then the Congress has to vote on it by Christmas. If they don't vote on it by Christmas, Brooke, you get all of these draconian cuts that take effect because essentially Congress cannot do its job.

So I think the fact that they have this hanging out there means that they might actually do something. Tax reform is a very big deal, but the only way you are going to get everyone to go to the table is to say, look, if you lower the top rate on the wealthiest people in this country, but you take away some of their deductions, is that a tax increase or not?

So it may come down to being a matter of semantics here. Reforming the tax code may end up doing exactly what President Obama wants.

BALDWIN: Let's just point out the deadline. Let's remind -- it's the November 23 deadline, right, for this bipartisan super committee. It's December 23 for Congress. And as you mentioned, this axe is sort of hanging over the heads of the super committee. So you do think that the pressure is on, that they need to accomplish something by that time?

BORGER: There is no doubt the pressure is on. And Congress has, what, a 14 percent approval rating? It can't get much lower than that.

Barack Obama knows that he can run against Congress, the do-nothing Congress, because even though his popularity is in the 40s, he's a lot more popular than Congress. The American public wants to get something done, and the president knows that the polls are on his side, Brooke. I mean, our own poll shows that by a 2-1 margin people believe that taxes on higher-income Americans and corporate America ought to be part of any deficit deal.

So, Republicans will have to take that into account as well.

BALDWIN: And if they don't make that deadline, that's when we start talking about those trigger mechanisms.

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: And I will see you at Christmas. I will see you right here, Christmas Eve.

BALDWIN: I know a lot of people don't want to talk about that. Gloria Borger, thank you so much.

BORGER: Sure.

BALDWIN: And still ahead, celebrities like Robert Redford, Leonardo DiCaprio, Daryl Hannah, they're all speaking out now against this pipeline that affects your wallet, your jobs, the environment. Police, police even arrested actress Daryl Hannah over this not too long ago. Coming up, the actress and activist will join me live to discuss this whole tar sands controversy.

Plus, a woman is found bound, she is naked, she is hanging from this balcony of a millionaire's mansion. Police ruled this a suicide, but her family is calling for investigators to reopen the case. Coming up next, find out what was written in black paint near her body and what her sister says the woman told her hours before she died.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Got some breaking news here.

Want to go straight to Chad Myers.

Earthquake reported in Guatemala. Where?

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, and not that far from Guatemala City itself. About a 5.8 quake, so it's a little bit less than what we saw maybe across parts of the U.S., but you have to understand that most of the buildings here are not ready to withstand an earthquake like this at all.

And it's only about 25 miles deep, 30 miles, 35 miles away. That doesn't tend to be very, very far away from the city. So that red dot right there is the earthquake. Here, we take you, this is south of Mexico, this is Guatemala, here's El Salvador and Honduras. There's Guatemala City and the earthquake being right there.

There are already a couple of dots there because there's probably already been an aftershock. But there it is, 5.8, just about 10, 15 minutes ago. And I'm checking all the tweets, all the tweet desks I can find to see if anybody from there is tweeting anything, and so far nothing out of that capital.

What do you have, Brooke?

(CROSSTALK)

MYERS: I saw you writing.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Being talked to in my ear as you finished speaking.

Apparently a spokesperson for the president of Guatemala says people have been buried in the rubble. To your point, I was in Guatemala City just a couple of years ago and you're right. The buildings are not at all up to par when it comes to withstanding that kind of...

MYERS: Right. They're made of brick and stone, brick and stone. When it shakes, it falls apart. A wood structure will do much better because that wood will flex. Brick, stone, mortar doesn't do very well.

BALDWIN: Strong tremors. We're going to keep an eye out for pictures. We will continue this conversation in Guatemala, 5.8 magnitude.

Chad, thank you very much. Let's go to the West Coast now. The family here of a woman who was found dead at her millionaire boyfriend's mansion in California says she would never have killed herself. Rebecca Zahau's relatives expect foul play even though her death was ruled a suicide.

She was found naked and bound at her hands and her feet. They want the case reopened. Sheriff's detectives say Zahau killed herself after learning that her boyfriend's 6-year-old son, Max, has died. Zahau had been babysitting that little boy when he fell down a staircase and suffered deadly injuries.

Police say Zahau scribbled this message in black paint on a door near where her body ultimately was found. And it read: "She saved him. Can you save her?" Zahau's sister spoke with ABC News today. She says she talked with Rebecca hours before the death. Everything, she says, seemed fine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARY ZAHAU-LOEHNER, SISTER: I would like people to remember my sister as a beautiful, loving, caring, kind person and that she would not hurt anybody, anybody.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even herself.

ZAHAU-LOEHNER: Even herself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Her sister also told ABC that Rebecca had no psychiatric history, never had taken antidepressants like that before.

Still ahead, they're called bunga bunga parties, sex, escorts and cash. And prosecutors say new tapes show how Italy's prime minister is involved in all of it. Up next, wait until you hear who is accused of bringing women to Silvio Berlusconi and what the Italian leader allegedly said about German Chancellor Angela Merkel. Quite frankly, it is too vulgar to repeat. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Shocking sexual comments allegedly made by one world leader about another. What Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi reportedly said about German Chancellor Angela Merkel is too profane to repeat.

But here's what we can tell you. It involves her desirability in relation to her physique. The twist here, Berlusconi may need Merkel's help to bail Italy out of its overwhelming debt. Keep in mind all of this coming from a man who's been mired in sex scandal. Berlusconi reportedly made his comments during a taped phone conversation with an Italian businessman who authorities say supplied him with young girls and prostitutes.

These wiretaps are part of an ongoing investigation that alleges the prime minister was blackmailed over his sexual escapades. And as far as the economy and Europe goes, my colleague Fareed Zakaria pointed out in his show just yesterday, "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS," that Italy's debts are more than Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Greece combined.

So, joining me live from Rome, Italy, to discuss the Berlusconi scandal is Furio Colombo, editor for the Italian newspaper that published excerpts from the wiretaps.

Furio, nice to have you on.

What do you think from these wiretaps will be the most shocking to the Italians?

FURIO COLOMBO, EDITOR, "IL FATTO QUOTIDIANO": Well, everything, every detail in those wiretaps will be shocking for the Italians.

The unfortunate thing is that the Italians show an incredible passion and tolerance for Mr. Berlusconi. Naturally, there is a reason for it, what we call the conflict of interests. Mr. Berlusconi has been able for 17 years to control at the same time public television, the state-controlled television and his private television empire.

Now, putting together these two things, plus several newspapers, plus publishing houses, he created an extreme power of intimidation against anyone that has any chance of writing or speaking publicly. And he commanded a certain degree of silence. That is exactly what happened.

Only now the situation is becoming so dramatically incredible, that even the power, the illegal power that Berlusconi exercise all these times cannot hold anymore.

BALDWIN: Furio, let me jump in and just ask, though, the specific comment your prime minister made with regard to the German chancellor, knowing that Italy may very well need Germany's help, how do you think the Italians will react to that comment about another world leader

COLOMBO: Well, they will have the impression that -- right in the middle of a dramatic economic crisis, most of my fellow citizen will have the impression that we do not have a government. We do not have a reliable person. We do not have a leader. We do not have a person that knows what he's doing, is only involved with these jokes, with the idea of being the better.

And what can -- I think that the best portrait of this man could be to remember that every country, every population has a cliche, a bad cliche. The typical bad cliche of Italy is to exaggerate, to be too much self-satisfied, to go around saying things that never happened, to take pride of things that never were done.

Well, this is exactly the portrait of Silvio Berlusconi.

BALDWIN: I see. I see.

COLOMBO: Unfortunately, he is the prime minister of Italy in a very, very delicate moment.

BALDWIN: I see. So, once the Italians were tolerant, perhaps no longer.

Furio Colombo, thank you so much.

Still ahead, in a little more 48 hours, a convicted cop killer is scheduled to take his final breath. Today, a parole board hears the case of Troy Davis. And a decision could come very soon.

Plus, more on our breaking news out of Guatemala -- that 5.8 earthquake rocked the area in and around Guatemala City. We're told people there felt the tremors, many people buried under the rubble. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: All right. Let's get a little bit more on that earthquake that has hit Guatemala, 5.8 magnitude.

MYERS: That's right.

BALDWIN: You're learning a little bit about where it hit, and it's near a volcano.

MYERS: Right, under basically the caldera of an old volcano. There's a lake in there right now, but this also maybe portends something else. Not just the earthquake. Maybe there's rumbling under the volcano in the magma down below. So we will take you there. Here's the Gulf of Mexico. That would be Cancun. Here's Guatemala, Guatemala City right there.

There's already been a couple of aftershocks. On the tweet deck I have been finding that people are saying the city is still shaking but remain calm. A 5.8, and it has not gone down. That tells me that that's probably a pretty stable number. Sometimes the USGS will over -- just -- not on purpose, maybe say a 6.2 and then they reduce it to a 5.9 later. This has not been reduced.

And here is that lake I'm talking about right there. There's the caldera of the old volcano. This is the volcano belt. There are volcanoes all the way up and down the country right here. And so a 5.8 at about 24 miles down below the surface and then into Guatemala City, the threat is not that is a giant earthquake for California or anything like that.

But 5.8 earthquake where you build buildings with stone and mortar and cement will really shake them to the core and bring them down, rather than a wood structure that might flex a little bit or a slightly isolated -- or insulated building that can actually take the shaking. There are very few buildings like that in Guatemala City. You know, Brooke. You have been there.

BALDWIN: I do know. And I know that we're also hearing that there are a number of people buried underneath some of the rubble. People felt the tremors. I know there are also just precious Mayan ruins not too far away within the country. We're working on getting video of course in the aftermath of this earthquake. Chad, thank you very much. (CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Meantime, barring intervention, the state of Georgia will execute a convicted cop killer in two days. Take a look at the room here in Atlanta where the state's parole board today is hearing the final appeal of Troy Davis, found guilty of murdering a Savannah police officer back in 1989.

Now, supporters of Troy Davis and opponents of the death penalty have staged vigils and publicly signed petitions, hundreds of thousands of them. If parole board members, though, if they deny clemency, Davis will be put to death by lethal injection at 7:00 p.m. Eastern time Wednesday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A second later, the thing crashes right behind me and I get -- all I remember as I'm trying to run is, I see stuff coming. And then that's the last thing I remember.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Caught on video, here it is, the beginning of the horrifying moment when a plane crashes into a crowd. Investigators are wondering, did a pilot build this plane for speed without giving more thought to safety? We're going to go live to Reno, Nevada, where the number of people killed has risen. Dan Simon is going to join me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: At the bottom of the hour, in case you're just joining us, we are now reporting on an earthquake that has rumbled Guatemala, specifically the epicenter not far away from Guatemala City. And if you have are ever been there, you know the buildings in and around the city and surrounding towns certainly not built to withstand any earthquake, let alone a 5.8 magnitude.

We're working the story, Chad Myers is working the story. Of course, there are reports of people buried in rubble. People most definitely felt the tremors of this earthquake. As soon as we get video, more information, we'll bring that to you live here on CNN.

A 10th person has now died from injuries received after a World War II-era plane crashed into that crowd Friday at a Reno, Nevada, air race. Take a look at the video.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SHOUTING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Tough to look at. The World War II-era plane crashing into the crowd, killed seven at the scene including 74-year-old pilot Jimmy leeward, three others died in the hospital. Nearly 70 people were also injured in that accident. NTSB officials say the downed plane had video and data recording devices on board. That could help them determine the precise cause of the crash.

Let's bring in Dan Simon joining me live from Reno. Dan, tell me what you learned today and what is the latest here on this investigation?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know that attention still remains on the tail of that aircraft, the P-51. Crews, when they canvassed the wreckage scene, they found a piece of the tail. You can see some of the pictures or videos of the plane in flight, you could see a piece break away. There's concern that may have caused the plane to go down. Specifically, this is called elevator lift tab. That piece will be sent to the Washington, D.C., NTSB lab for analysis.

Brooke, as you also mentioned, turns out that that plane also had a camera on board facing outward, and authorities or investigators found memory cards at the scene. They're not sure if they actually go with the camera, but nonetheless those cards will be analyzed for further analysis when they're sent to the lab in D.C. as well.

And the plane also had, I guess you could describe it as a crude form of black box. It took things like oil pressure and rpms and speed. That information was wirelessly transmitted to the flight crew when the plane was p up in the air. That could be useful information as well, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Dan, in addition to what happened there in Reno, you know, there are have been a number of air show accidents recently. In fact, the very next day after the crash there in Reno, there was a collision midair during an air show in Martinsburg, West Virginia. These are images from an iReporter at the scene, a fiery, fiery crash. A stunt pilot died in the Saturday crash. No one fortunately was injured on the ground, though.

But, Dan, given these accidents, what, if anything, can the federal government do to try to make these shows, make people on the ground watching them, safer?

BALDWIN: Well, you know, it's interesting. The pilots realize there's an inherent danger here. It it's been described as sort of a NASCAR race in the sky. The pilots clearly know things are dangerous. You've had 19 pilots, now 20 pilots, who have died since 1964, just at these races here in Reno.

For spectators, it's something different. When they come to these races there's an expectation, of course, that they're going to be safe. Now that sense of safety has been shattered so the question is, how does the community deal with it?

Well, people here feel a lot of pride in these races. They've been going on for nearly a half century. It brings a lot of money to the city every year. So I think what's going to happen now is that the city of Reno along with the people who hold this race and federal authorities are really going to have to sit down and have sort of an honest, frank discussion about whether or not these should go forward. If it's up to the people here in Reno, there will be more races in the future, but at this point it's just up in the air, so to speak.

BALDWIN: See if it's worth it. Dan Simon, in Reno, thank you so much.

Coming up, Robert Redford, Leonardo DiCaprio, Daryl Hannah, just a couple of names that have spoken against the big pipeline that may eventually reach all the way from Alberta, Canada to Texas. They are against it. Liberal, pro-environment, you get their position here. Then you have president Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, they may be for this pipeline if it brings jobs and products to American refineries.

I'll explain this controversy. Daryl Hannah will join me live. Then we'll hear from the company who wants to build the pipeline, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: There is this big battle going on that you might not have heard very much about. It involves jobs. It involves your wallet, the environment, and expanding this pipeline to move crude oil all the way from Canada to refineries on the Gulf Coast. This is not your standard crude oil. And that is part of the problem. This oil is from Canada's tar sands. It is thick, it's sticky, kind of like molasses.

Pipeline supports say it will bring tens of thousands of jobs to the U.S. and hundreds of thousands of barrels of cheap oil from a friendly country.

Meantime, you have opponents, and they're saying the pipeline would pose multiple threats to the environment, especially if it leaks into aquifers that supply drinking water for millions of Americans. Also protests have been heating up as the State Department is getting closer to deciding whether or not to give the OK to build this pipeline. And that decision is expected by the end of this year.

I want to take a closer look at the fight from both sides here. But I want to begin with one of the pipeline's more vocal opponents. You saw her in that video a second ago, actress and activist Daryl Hannah. Daryl, nice to have you on. You know, you feel very strongly about this. I know you were willing to be arrested over this not long ago. Give me three reasons why this pipeline should not be built.

DARYL HANNAH, ACTRESS: Well, there are so many reasons, but amongst the top reasons I would say the Ogala Aquafir that provides irrigation water for a third of our nation's farm and ranchland. This is supposed to pass right over it. There were 12 spills in 12 months put in last month. Bitumen is a very corrosive, very thick form of oil that will be going through these pipelines that needs to be heated up to 150 degrees. So it's not if it will have a spill, it's when it will have a spill. That's one reason.

The second reason is that tar sands is one of the largest industrial, most destructive industrial, environmental disaster on the planet. We don't need to be a part of it and I highly doubt it's actually going to make oil prices cheaper. And it will shackle us essentially to being a slave to fossil fuels for the next however long, I mean, for very long because it's a $13 billion project. So it's incredibly bad news. We need to move towards clean, renewable, safe jobs and safe energy.

HANNAH: Let me jump in just on your point -- you mentioned the bitumen. I know Robert Redford wrote an op-ed in the Houston chronicle and he called this oil the dirtiest stuff on the planet. If you talk to TransCanada, which we are about to, and you read their response to the op-ed, they maintain it's not the most corrosive oil in the world, that they've been doing this for decades, you know, taking Canadian oil stands, crewed by pipeline, you mentioned the $13 billion, I'm just giving you their perspective for you to respond to. They said, look, why would we spend this much money for something that wouldn't work?

Why when you look at the timetable, Daryl, we know that the state department could say yes in about 90 days, why protest so late in the game?

HANNAH: Well, first of all, if you look at what happened just to the Michigan River, it almost over a quarter of a million gallons spilled into that river. Exxon, who is a big owner of this project at the Canadian tar sands, they made $67 billion in the first quarter of last year. So they have a vested interest in telling you that it's not dangerous and it works. But there is -- I mean, it's basically a fact that there were 12 spills in 12 months last year when they put in Keystone one.

BALDWIN: I'll have the representative from TransCanada most definitely address that. But to the point of all of these protests really sort of ramping up in August, September where the deadline really is December, why really speak up now? Why not before?

HANNAH: Well, I think that, you know, largely this tar sands and the pipeline proposal has been hidden from the American public. This is the first I've ever heard of it being even covered on CNN. It's been something that, you know, is left up to the president. He doesn't need Congress to make the decision.

So we're really hoping to put pressure on President Obama to make the right decision and to fulfill his promise to the American people to actually bring change and bring a safe, self-sufficient -- I mean, just before this program there was a program showing there are earthquakes in Guatemala. There was one last night in Nepal and one in India.

We are facing a world that has increasingly tempestuous weather conditions, a tempestuous planet. We need to create self-sufficiency and security in this country. And that's what clean, renewable, and safe energy will do, not something that will ultimately threaten our water resources, which are more valuable than oil.

BALDWIN: You know what? I think a lot of Americans listening to you probably agree. But I'm going to throw a word out there that perks up Americans' ears, and that is jobs. I want to read something in the Houston chronicle, the president of the pipeline says this, if approved, the privately funded Keystone XL pipeline will immediately put 20,000 Americans to work, create an additional 118,000 spinoff jobs, inject $20 billion into the U.S. economy and pay more than $5 billion in taxes to local counties over the lifetime of the project, money that could be used to build roads, hospitals and schools. When you look at those numbers, Daryl Hannah, that's a lot of jobs.

HANNAH: Well, this is coming from --

BALDWIN: Hang on. Let me ask a question. If you tell a family of four that, you know, let's just say the environment is more important than a father or a mother getting back to work, how do you explain that to them?

HANNAH: OK, first of all, this is coming from TransCanada. They obviously have a very large financial interest in making those claims. Those claims have been refuted by numerous people who have said they're greatly exaggerated.

Second of all, if you put $7 billion or $13 billion into clean, renewable, safe jobs, people don't want to be working on pipelines that can blow, on oil rigs that can explode, and dangerous jobs that are destroying our planet.

You don't have -- it's not a choice of whether or not you're going to have jobs -- either just this job or no job. There's an option. We have options available to us. We already know how to create energy from safe renewable resources and we need to start doing it in this country. We don't need to start being slaves to more $5 a gallon fuel.

BALDWIN: OK, Daryl Hannah, thank you very much. That is certainly one side of this. Let me move on to James Millar. He's a spokesman for the company who wants to build this pipeline, TransCanada corporation. James, first I want to give you an opportunity in a moment to respond to the specific concerns that we just heard from Daryl Hannah.

But first, let's address the jobs issue. She did bring that up. The numbers in the Houston chronicle from your company, the company president said it will immediately put 20,000 Americans to work. Where did you get those numbers? And, also, can you be more precise? What kinds of jobs are we talking about here?

JAMES MILLAR, SPOKESMAN, TRANSCANADA CORPORATION: Brooke, we're talking about 20,000 jobs, as you highlighted -- 13,000 of those being construction jobs along the pipeline route and 7,000 manufacturing jobs. So, for example, with the manufacturing jobs, the pipe has already been manufactured by American steelworkers in Arkansas. So that's one example. And there's many other manufacturing that's needed for this pipeline. We have to build large pumping stations, equipment that runs along the 1,600-mile route.

And specifically with the construction jobs, Keystone phase one has been in operation as Miss Hannah pointed out for over a year now and we employed over 10,000 people on that pipeline. That pipeline was not built by ghosts. That pipeline was built by hardworking men and women in the U.S. and Keystone XL, if it is approved, will be built by the same hardworking Americans.

BALDWIN: Let me ask you on the pipeline, one of her concerns she brought p up -- and I jotted it down -- she mentioned 12 spills in 12 months. I know I could find there was a spill in May of 500 barrels. Can you just clear up some of those numbers, and also to take it a step further, just assure the people if and when this pipeline is built -- here is a graphic of what we could see -- assure these people that this won't affect their aquifers, their water supply.

MILLAR: As with many comments over the last number of months, it's the selective use of facts. 12 incidents, not one incident happened with the pipeline in the ground. Miss Hannah knows that. All of these incidents happened aboveground at our pumping stations, the majority of the oil was confined to TransCanada property, and in the majority of the situations the amount of oil that leaked was five to 10 gallons. Five gallons is three oil changes in a truck are. So let's put some perspective on this.

BALDWIN: To be clear, though, there was, according to one number I found, a 500-barrel spill in May in North Dakota.

MILLAR: That's factually true. That is true. Again, that was aboveground, did not involve the pipe in the ground. The oil was confined to our property except for an oil mist that sprayed into the outlying field. It was cleaned up quickly. So again, perspective on that, when they say 12 spills, the average American thinks, my god, it's the pipeline in the ground. That has not happened. That is not the truth.

BALDWIN: What about this, James. Is there any way you can get this oil to the gulf coast without crossing these aquifers going this particular route?

MILLAR: Well, here's the interesting thing about the aquifer. Seven states right now have 15,000 miles of oil pipeline transporting oil safely through the aquifer, 15,000 miles. One example, the Platte pipeline has been operating in Nebraska safely since 1952, six decades almost, and it transports 53 million barrels of oil through the aquifer year.

Keystone will be a state-of-the-art pipeline built with better steel, more inspections, more automatic safety shutoff valves, and a higher level of security as the final environmental impact statement came forward with Keystone than any other pipeline. So we're not clear what the issue is here. Oil has been transported through that aquifer safely for close to six decades.

BALDWIN: Final question to you -- what happens if and when the State Department says no? Who gets the oil? Does it go to China?

MILLAR: Well, we're confident the State Department will say yes, and it's based on the fundamental fact that Americans have a choice. You can receive stable, secure oil from Canada -- and I should add 25 percent of the oil in Keystone will come from U.S.-producing states. So you can take stable, secure oil from are Canada or you can choose to import higher priced conflict oil from regimes that really are not friendly to the United States, such as the Middle East, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Venezuela.

BALDWIN: But if the state department says no, if they say no, where does the oil go?

MILLAR: Right. Well, the oil is going to be produced regardless of where Keystone goes through. It will either go through the west coast. There's an existing pipeline that transports 150,000 barrels of oil a day to the west coast, another point the environmentalists say is not occurring.

And the Chinese, they are rabid consumers of oil. One way or another, the oil will be produced, it will go to market. So, again, I think all Americans would prefer to receive cheaper oil from Canada than higher-priced oil from the Middle East and Venezuela.

BALDWIN: James Millar and Daryl Hannah, I thank both of you for coming on. Obviously we'll follow it and see what the state department ultimately decides. My thanks to you, sir.

Now this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: What is your place right now?

JOHN VERNON, SINGER, BON IVER: Right now it's on tour, and it's dealing with kind of being a home sick kind of person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: It is "Music Monday," which means I get to sit down another amazing artist. Coming up next an up close and personal look at singer-songwriter Justin Vernon and his band Bon Iver. He tells me how one winter and one heartbreak changed his life forever. Do not miss this.

Also, more on breaking news. A 5.8 magnitude quake, reports of people trapped under the rubble. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Heartbreak -- it is a powerful tool, especially for singer song writer, Justin Vernon. With a very distinct singing style and the power of the Internet, he turned one winter in 2006 into the launching point for his music career. And now just months after the release of his band's second album, Bonn Iver, self-titled, I sat down with this Wisconsin native to find out he found his voice and how a couple of moments changed his life.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: When did you first start singing, and at what point did you discover you could sound like you do, this falsetto?

VERNON: Well, I played music my whole life and played around with whatever music that was around and started writing songs at 12 or 13, I guess.

BALDWIN: That young?

VERNON: But I never developed the voice I'm singing in now until recently. So I don't want to separate the past from the present, but yes, it is definitely a vastly different thing with singing kind of more in the upper register more off then than not.

BALDWIN: In Winter '06, you get dumped. Did she dump you?

VERNON: It was kind of dumping on each other. I was staying at my dad's hunting shack and I basically stayed there for three months by myself and started to kind of unravel all this music that had sort of been unable it make its way out.

BALDWIN: So in three months you wrote all nine songs?

VERNON: Probably six months all in all considering a couple of months before and a couple of months after, as far as finishing it up. But the album was done in this four or five-month period, yes.

BALDWIN: So this is "For Emma." Ultimately you put it on the Internet. Then, the next thing you know, record companies were calling you.

VERNON: Yes.

BALDWIN: Because of what you put on the internet.

VERNON: Yes.

BALDWIN: Is that wild to you?

VERNON: It is wild. Still, I mean, my life personally hasn't really stopped reverberating from those moments I guess.

BALDWIN: Do you think if it wasn't for the internet you probably wouldn't be sitting here?

VERNON: Probably not. I wouldn't be sitting here, I would be sitting somewhere else thinking about sitting here, maybe.

BALDWIN: So you have "For Emm,a" and you did pretty well with that. Then now you have this new album. Instead of emoting, opining, and what not, you are going in the backdoor. It is more about the sound but how do you put the words sound?

(MUSIC)

VERNON: You make your voice make the sounds. You make the ache, if you will, or a moan or whatever it is, like happen. Whatever sounds right, you make a bunch of syllables and create melodies and sometimes I won't get anything our will get 10 different drafts and I will look at it separately, and say, like, what do I have here.

BALDWIN: What is your place, right now?

VERNON: Right now it's on tour. And it's dealing with kind of being a home sick kind of person, but loving what I do more than anything I could describe.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: It was a great live show. Justin Vernon, it is amazing who he is collaborating with. You know I love music, I love dos these interviews. You can watch all my Music Monday interviews. Head on over to our blog, my blog, CNN.com/Brooke, and check them out.

Now to Jim Acosta with the latest news fresh off the CNN Political Ticker. Jim, what do you have today?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, Rick Perry, the GOP frontrunner, is headed up to New York tomorrow morning. He will have a press conference with some Jewish leaders up there. Obviously all of this is surrounding this big general assembly, U.N. general assembly meeting taking place up in New York all this week. The big issue up there is this subject of the Palestinian statehood question.

And Governor Perry has been sharply critical of the Obama administration taking out an op-ed in the "Washington Journal" and the "Jerusalem Post," accusing the president of basically distancing himself from Israel. So Rick Perry is really trying to capitalize on queasiness about the Obama administration, and we will see more of that tomorrow from Rick Perry.

And I hate to make things all about the big apple, but president Obama, Brooke, is also heading up to New York this afternoon. He is going to have a fund-raiser in New York City. And that is basically a fundraising base for the president. It is not a big surprise to see the president going up there. But he is expected to stay in New York until his big speech at the general assembly on Wednesday. So a lot of things U.N. this week, a lot of things New York this week, and we're keeping an eye on all of it.

BALDWIN: I know Wolf is in New York covering that for us this week. So we will check in with Wolf later too. Jim, thanks very much. Another Political ticker update for you in half an hour. Meantime, as we approach the top of the hour, take a look at this.

For months, one man sat in a gruesome horrifying detail about his wife and two young daughters were murdered in their own home, and now he is about to relive that horror all over again.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. The news is now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your family was destroyed. BALDWIN: William Pettit lost his entire family during a nightmare. The one being accused of the crime faces a jury.

Plus, President Obama gets fired up. He tells the rich, pay your fair share.

BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is not class warfare.

BALDWIN: And new concerns of a plane that crashed in an air show built for speed, this as survivors are now speaking out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)