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American Voice of Al Qaeda Killed; Debit Card Fee Plan; Al Qaeda Leader Killed in Yemen; Trial of Michael Jackson's Doctor Continues; Granddaughters of Nelson Mandela May Star in Reality Show

Aired September 30, 2011 - 15:00   ET


BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Brooke Baldwin. Welcome. We will continue on here at the CNN NEWSROOM and begin with this.

He was the future of terrorism, the Osama bin Laden of the Internet, if you will, American-born, al Qaeda-affiliated, savvy, plugged-in, using YouTube and a Web site to encourage and recruit the disaffected hell-bent on jihad. But today we're told that Anwar al-Awlaki life ended in a rain of American Hellfire missiles shot from a CIA drone in Yemen.

Al-Awlaki and his followers staged some of the highest-profile acts of terror, including those Fort Hood shootings that killed 13 people, the attempt to set off that bomb in Times Square and the bid to blow up a passenger jet using explosives sewn into a man's underwear and the plot to blow up American cargo planes with bombs hidden in toner cartridges.

To be clear here, al-Awlaki was a very big get. He was the only American on an official U.S. hit list and his killing has touched off this firestorm today among critics. They contend this killing breaks U.S. and international laws. But today, if you heard the president, he made it very clear that no terrorist is safe.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Make no mistake: This is further proof that al Qaeda and its affiliates will find no safe haven anywhere in the world. Working with Yemen and our other allies and partners, we will be determined, we will be deliberate, we will be relentless, we will be resolute in our commitment to destroy terrorist networks that aim to kill Americans, and to build a world in which people everywhere can live in greater peace, prosperity and security.


BALDWIN: I want to bring in my guest now.

Michael Scheuer founded and ran the CIA's Osama bin Laden unit.

And, Mike, you are the author -- let me get this title here -- the author of "Imperial Hubris: Why the West Is Losing the War on Terrorism."

In a matter of five months, you have bin Laden killed, now Awlaki. Are we turning the corner? Are we still losing?


Awlaki getting killed today and his sidekick, Samir Khan, that is very important, and it's a very important tactical victory. It slows down their ability to incite violence in the English-speaking countries in America, and Canada, India, Britain.

But in the long run, it's a tactical victory, not a strategic victory. We have been in the same boat, we, American citizens, since 1996 when bin Laden declared war on us. We are fighting an enemy that is motivated by the United States government and its allies do in the Muslim world, support for the Saudis, support for Israel, our presence on the Arab Peninsula, the Afghan and Iraq wars, and not what our presidents tell us about, about hating women in the workplace and elections and liberties.

And so it's important to kill these people. I have no doubt about that. And the silly argument that it's illegal is just fatuous.

BALDWIN: I want to ask you about that in just a second. But I know on the minds of many Americans is, how are we sure they got him? Will we ever know definitively?

KNOX: Well, usually al Qaeda, if they lose a senior leader, they never try to hide it. And if they don't make a formal announcement and issue a eulogy, generally speaking, the man is still alive, but I don't know if that is true.

They have lost several senior people since bin Laden was killed in May and they haven't issued a eulogy yet, but we're claiming they're dead. The government seems pretty confident. I guess we have to go with that unless it's proven otherwise.

BALDWIN: OK. Go with the government.

I want to talk a little bit more about al-Awlaki, Yemeni descent, but raised in New Mexico, attended a college in the U.S., started preaching at this mosque in San Diego, but it's the Internet, and you started upon this point, it was the Internet where he was really able to communicate and recruit young English-speaking Muslims.

My question is, does al Qaeda have anyone else of that same sort of ilk sort of waiting in the wings with similar abilities?

SCHEUER: Well, they have already a man they have been using for a long time, a Jewish American who converted to Islam. His name was Adam Gadahn.

BALDWIN: Adam Gadahn.

SCHEUER: And he now goes under the name al-Amriki.

The one thing we do know, ma'am, about how al Qaeda works is there is an understudy somewhere for Awlaki and for Samir Khan, who was also an English-speaking American. So in all likelihood, they are not going to be as talented as the two men that were killed today, but there will be somebody to replace them. The big problems we have had of course over the last decade is that they're very well prepared for succession. They know they're fighting a superpower and so they always have somebody to step in.

BALDWIN: This is precedent-setting, though. This is the first time that the U.S. has deliberately targeted and killed an American and this post-9/11 war on terror. As you alluded to for a moment, there is a lot of criticism coming out today that this killing violates U.S. and international law. Where do you stand on that, Mike?

SCHEUER: Well, you know, I think historically speaking it's a little shortsighted to just look from 9/11 forward. The United States killed almost 300,000 Southern citizens during the Civil War because they had decided to abandon the United States and declare war on their own country.

Similarly, Samir Khan and Awlaki abandoned the United States and joined an organization that had declared war on us. They were very much enemy combatants. And I can't see any reason why the Constitution should protect that kind of war-making against their own country. I don't think it does. I think it's kind of an ACLU shibboleth, really.

BALDWIN: Mike, Yemen, I know you have spent some time on the ground in Yemen. We have talked a lot in, what, the year, two years about AQAP, al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. It is the most dangerous al Qaeda affiliate. What more can you share about it? What kind of message does this killing send to fellow AQAP foot soldiers?

SCHEUER: Well, I think they will be disappointed. But it's one of those cases where we are very much culturally different than they are.

They will be grieving for Awlaki, but it will also be celebrating because he embraced what they wanted. He embraced martyrdom at the hands of the Americans, at the hands of the enemies of God, from their perspective.

And the one thing that seems to have gotten blurred today is Awlaki and the other man, Samir Khan, were involved in activities that were somewhat separate from al Qaeda in the Arab Peninsula.

BALDWIN: How do you mean?

SCHEUER: I'm sorry?

BALDWIN: How do you mean?

SCHEUER: Well, they were involved in propaganda activities directed at the English-speaking countries, especially the United States and Britain.

The military apparatus of al Qaeda in the Arab Peninsula is run by a man named Abu Wahishi, who used to be Osama bin Laden's personal secretary. And he's the one that really generates the military aspirations, whether it was the toners you talked about or some of the other operations. The military threat posed by al Qaeda in the Arab Peninsula really comes from that part of the organization.

BALDWIN: So if it comes primarily from that part of the organization, Mike, then how -- is this really not that big of a blow? We know al- Awlaki was hell-bent on attacking the U.S., but if this person you're describing on the military end is really the more significant, is this blow not as big of a blow as some may think?

SCHEUER: Well, it's very important because he was dedicated toward the English-speaking countries and bringing war to our own streets and towns.

So I think you can't underestimate how important it was as a short- term tactical victory. It was important that we do it. But the idea that it has somehow hurt the military capabilities of al Qaeda in the Arab Peninsula, I think that's just not provable. That's just wrong.

And so it's the difference between fighters under Mr. Abu Wahishi, and inciters and people who are instigating under the late Awlaki. So I think it's important, but we really have not damaged (AUDIO GAP) capabilities.

BALDWIN: Michael Scheuer, thank you so much for calling in.

By the way, you can learn a lot more about the impact al-Awlaki's death will have on al Qaeda. Just go to

Now this:


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not too psyched about it. And that is why I'm switching.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I use a credit union. They are not ripping me off.


BALDWIN: Get ready. Banks are about to start charging you more to spend your own money. So what is a consumer to do? We're going to how to avoid some of those excessive fees.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They could, A., give him to me through hospice, or, B., transfer him to Mexico and see if he could get the -- his needs he needed over there.


BALDWIN: Here's a story. An immigrant visiting the U.S. on a visa collapses at a soccer game, rushed to the hospital, now is on life support. His family cannot pay the hospital bills. So who is? Is anyone? That's coming up.


BALDWIN: This next story really goes to the heart of the issue for medical care for immigrants in our country.

Jesus Cornelio is in a hospital in Arizona. He's on life support. he collapsed in the middle of this soccer game. His wife, who is American, she cannot afford the hospital bill and says she was only given two choices because he doesn't have insurance and is not covered by Medicaid.

CNN affiliate KPHO examines this issue.


JADIANN THOMPSON, KPHO REPORTER (voice-over): Jesus Cornelio collapsed playing soccer last Monday. Now he is in the intensive care unit and on life support Banner Good Samaritan Hospital.

His wife, Evelyn, told the hospital told her, because he does not have insurance, they would give her only two options.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They could, A., give him to me through hospice, or, B., transfer him to Mexico and see if he could get the -- his needs he needed over there.

THOMPSON: Evelyn just wants her husband to get the care he needs.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They told me that, bottom line, money was the problem here.

THOMPSON: She tells us that her husband got an employment authorization card and a Social Security card in the mail on Saturday, but that was not enough to guarantee his care.

But Lydia Guzman with Respect/Respeto thinks there is more to the story.

LYDIA GUZMAN, RESPECT/RESPETO: If a U.S. citizen were here in a coma and the hospital says, because we have no way to find out how we are going to be reimbursed for this medical bill, we are going to have to remove him from life support, we doubt that that is going to happen. But because of -- we believe that it's because of this person's legal status that this is taking place.


BALDWIN: That was KPHO reporter Jadiann Thompson.

Now, a family friend tells the CNN affiliate that the hospital has decided to keep Jesus Cornelio on life support at least they say for now, but officials there won't say who is paying the bill.

The hospital did release the following statement. Let me just read part of it to you. "The physicians, nurses, and staff at Banner Good Samaritan Medical Center are solely focused on providing excellent and compassionate patient care to Mr. Cornelio and his family."

And now swipe this, banks charging you to use your debit card there. But there always some ways to beat the new monthly fees. We will have those for you next.

Also, a grandfather up and goes missing. We will tell you the story about how his family, how his children put together their own search party and found him six days, two cars, one massive ravine later.


BALDWIN: So we started talking about this yesterday. I could feel the outrage through my Twitter account.

Swiping your debit card going to cost you more. Starting next year, Bank of America will charge this $5-a-month fee to use your debit card when you buy something. A lot of other banks are going to be testing similar fees as well. A couple are already doing this.

And this is all because of this legislative reduction in how much banks can charge the retailers each time one of us pulls out our debit card and swipes it. The swipe fee cap is actually in the Durbin amendment.

Now, currently, banks charge merchants 44 cents every time a debit card is swiped. But as of tomorrow, that fee will drop to between 21 and 24 cents per swipe, significantly less. As a result, the banking industry could lose $6.6 billion a year. That's according to Javelin Strategy & Research.

And you will help make up for that cost in these monthly fees.

Let's go to "U.S. News & World Report" chief business correspondent Rick Newman live in New York.

Rick, like I said, I could already tell people were a tad perturbed over this.

So, you, friend, you put together this list of the five ways consumers can sort of beat these new bank fees. And I want to just help you walk through all of them. One of them, you say, know your bank rules because there are caveats, sir, caveats to these bank fees.


Every bank has something called a fee schedule, which lists all their fees and all the different rules. And it's a real patchwork. And they change over time, too.

And so they might have a certain minimum balance. If you have so much money in the bank, they will waive the fees for you, other rules. You just have to, number one, know what the rules are. And you may be able to arrange your accounts or consolidate your checking or savings account in one bank so that you're not getting hit with those fees.

BALDWIN: OK. Next one, this one could be easy. Complain.

NEWMAN: Well, people are already doing that, but you need to complain to your bank.

And I think people might be surprised that banks are not all that firm about these fees. We have heard a lot of these banks say they are testing certain fees. That means they want to see if they will stick and they want to see if will lose customers over these fees or whether they might just slide through unnoticed or not generate that much hostility.

If you notice fees on your statement, and that's really important, watch your statement all the time and if you notice something on there that doesn't seem right, call your bank and say, what is this fee? And just say, look, I would like you to remove this fee. Sometimes they will and I guess there probably will be sometimes they won't.

But that actually gets to another point on the list is shop around for a better bank. Banks are not doing this in lockstep. We have heard about some big ones that are, but there are some smaller banks that have never really done this kind of thing and they do like to emphasize building relationships with their customers. Credit unions can be another good alternative.

So if you just really feel you are getting nickel-and-dimed, just shop around and see if you can find a better deal.

BALDWIN: But at the same time, look, if you love your bank, let's say you're with Bank of America, they're going to these $5-a-month fees. You just kind of have to live with it, live with the loss of privilege.

NEWMAN: The banking industry is changing.

One of the reasons that people are so outraged about this is because this is something customers is getting for free. And there are some things that we are not going to keep getting for free. The banking industry is just going to be less profitable in the future, which means that there's less profit over here to subsidize some of these services over here that they used to offer.

We will probably see fewer reward programs, other perks. Probably the threshold will go higher for those and fewer people will qualify. I think to some extent we do need to recognize that banking is a service. It's not a birthright. And we do have the money -- the option to take our money out of the bank and put it in the mattress.

So figure out what you're willing to pay for and then work the angles with your bank to get a better deal on the other things.

BALDWIN: We were just joking about that doing that this morning in our morning meeting as we were tossing around ideas.

(CROSSTALK) NEWMAN: A lot of people are talking about it.

BALDWIN: You mentioned some of the rewards, though, Rick. One of your points is I guess resist those, what, iPods. You don't necessarily have to chase the offers elsewhere.

NEWMAN: That's probably a bad idea, as a matter of fact.

So banks want new customers and sometimes -- we're all familiar with these deals, free checking for a year or low interest rate on your credit card or something like that. Or some banks actually do give away iPods if you open an account.

I think the catch is that's really just an effort to get you in the door and those fees that may end up going up later, I think you're much better off getting in with the bank you like and consolidating your financial activity at one bank you like. You really will benefit if you can get all of your accounts at one place.

And then you will become a favored customer. And that's the kind of customer who will get better treatment from the banks.

BALDWIN: And then the fifth one. You already mentioned this, and I will just say it again. Find a better bank. Not every single bank is including these fees.

And so this brings me really to my next sort of overarching question, part of this whole dialogue we had this morning. If you don't want to slash a hole in your mattress and shove a bunch of cash in there, what do you think that these additional fees will ultimately lend to? Will we just be using more cash, just using ATM cards? Someone even was telling -- educating me saying apparently you can use blank checks.

And I guess when you go to check out, you just swipe the check. Is that where we are going?

NEWMAN: I think consumers are very clever. And I think they are going to figure out a lot of different angles.

For example, I think you pointed out that Bank of America $5 monthly fee, that does not apply if you only use your debit card to make ATM withdrawals. It only applies if you use that debit card to make purchases at a store.


NEWMAN: Obviously what some people are going to do is they will just withdraw cash from a Bank of America ATM and then use the cash to make purchases. That's a fairly smart and not that complicated way around it.

But this is not a one-size-fits-all situation. And different banks have different problems. And some banks have no problems. And I think they will welcome you with open arms if you show up and say, look, I feel like I'm getting a bad deal from Bank of America or Chase or Wells Fargo. Would you like me to give a better deal? I think some banks would say, sure, come on in.

BALDWIN: Yes. Look, the banks say they need the money. They will have this loss because of those other fees, but at the same time there are lots of consumers, crafty consumers out there, and a lot of them thanks to you.

Rick Newman, "U.S. News & World Report," thank you very much. Appreciate it. Have a good weekend.


NEWMAN: You, too.

BALDWIN: Coming up, he's been called the YouTube jihadist and the Osama bin Laden of the Internet. Al-Awlaki, the mastermind behind many of those lone wolf terrorist acts right here in the United States, like the Fort Hood shooting, he is dead.

How big of a blow does his death deal to the terrorists? And how important was the other guy they got along with him? Heard about him? That's coming up.



BALDWIN: He sang his way to the top 10 on "American Idol" season 10, but his medical condition almost stopped his music career even before it started. I'm talking about Casey Abrams.

And Dr. Sanjay Gupta actually met up with the "Idol" star to find out more about this medical condition. Here is this week's "Human Factor."


DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You may remember Casey Abrams as the jazzy fan favorite from season 10 of "American Idol." What you may not know is that Casey had to overcome a personal battle of his own.

CASEY ABRAMS, "AMERICAN IDOL" FINALIST: I was just studying music at college. I was getting stomach cramps, you know, just carrying my bass from one side of campus to the other. It just wore me out. I had no energy.

GUPTA: At 19, he was diagnosed with inflammatory bowel disease, or IBD. It's a condition that can destroy the lining of the intestines and increase your risk of colon cancer.

ABRAMS: To be honest, I think it was kind of a kick in the butt.

GUPTA: But Casey wasn't about to let the disease get in the way of his musical aspirations.

ABRAMS: It got worse. And then I felt like I had to keep fighting and keep fighting. So, it was -- I felt like the little engine that could. I think I can, I think I can. And I got to the top.

GUPTA: The top 24, that is, on "American Idol." It was a dream come true, but his fight wasn't over. Just days before his first television performance the disease started up, and Casey was rushed to the hospital.

ABRAMS: I'm out of the competition. That's all I'm thinking. The disease has won and I'm defeated.

GUPTA: But Casey returned and he returned to the show, working his way all the way up to the top six. Months later Abrams is still learning how to live with his disease, and he's powering through it, and working with a pharmaceutical company to a site where other IBD patients can share their experience.

ABRAMS: When I'm on a TV show where people are voting for you, it's humbling to know that I'm an inspiration for some of the people out there. I feel like I'm proof that you can accomplish your goals no matter what disease you have.

GUPTA: His next challenge is much more fun.

ABRAMS: Look out for a jazzy and rocky type album.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.


BALDWIN: Thank you, Sanjay Gupta. I just want to add that Casey said the people who submit stories to the IBD Icons will get to see him perform live in Vegas.

Now this.


LISA LAVAU, VICTIM'S DAUGHTER: My dad would never not call his he kids. There's four of us and by the time the fourth day, the fifth day and then the sixth day, we knew something was wrong.


BALDWIN: A father of four goes missing for six days. Even when the professionals, police give up, his grown children never did. They found him through sheer determination. We're going to share this incredible story with you just ahead.


BALDWIN: Have you heard about this amazing story of survival and perseverance out of California today? You have this 67-year-old man found alive at the bottom of this ravine, some 200 feet deep. Found him six days after his car plunged over the side.

But here's the kicker. He was found by his family who got worried when they didn't hear from him. So they then retraced the route that they knew he would have taken last Friday.


LAVAU: We stopped at every ravine and looked over every hill, and then my brother got out of the car and we kept screaming, and then the next thing we heard was dad screaming "help, help," and there he was.

My dad would never not call his kids. There's four of us. By the time the fourth day, fifth day, and then the sixth day, we knew something was wrong. He supposedly lost control. There was a bright car and if you saw where the accident happened, several cars have gone off. The cars were just horrific. I don't know how he survived. He's been living on waters from the stream and leaves.


BALDWIN: The family's hard work paid off late last night. David Lavau's ribs and back with shattered in that crash, his shoulders was dislocated, and his arm was broken. Somehow he managed to get out of that car and set up a makeshift camp in the ravine. We should also note there was another car found next to Lavau's and that driver did not survive.

Now this.


BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The death of Awlaki is a major blow to Al Qaeda's most operational affiliate.


BALDWIN: He's known as the "YouTube Jihadist." Anwar Awlaki, who recruited followers through the Internet, is dead. So why would anyone in the U.S. be upset that they took him out? Remember, this is a guy who wanted Americans dead.

Plus, the latest from the Michael Jackson death trial. Today the paramedics tell their story.

But first, this.


CARTER EVANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Time now for the Help Desk, where we get answers to your financial questions. With me now, John Ulzheimer. He's the president of Consumer Education at, and Manisha Thakor, she's a personal finance expert.

OK, let's start with Millicent in Brentwood, California. She says she got a loan modification last year. Now the bank wants her to accept another modification on the second loan. Her credit score has gone up in the last year and she doesn't want to do anything that's going to cause it to go down. What should she do?

JOHN ULZHEIMER, PRESIDENT OF CONSUMER EDUCATION, SMARTCREDIT.COM: The good news is if she is current on her payments for that second mortgage and enters into a loan mod program, then they will not report her delinquent to the credit reporting agencies. The bad news is if she is delinquent, then they will continue to report her as past due.

If the loan modification application is denied, the bank is going to want any bank or deficiency back immediately. If not, they will start foreclosure proceedings, which goes on your credit reports. So be very, very careful not to just ignore it if in fact it does get denied.

EVANS: Lee in Colorado Springs says "My wife is retiring next year. In her 410(k) account she has about half a million buck. The money is going to be used after retirement but she only wants to use the money earned from it. Where should she put her money? Where are you making money these days?

MANISHA THAKOR, PERSONAL FINANCE EXPERT: I want to have a chat with your wife. It's a noble desire to have a low with draw rate. I applaud that. But being overly conservative, especially for women, Carter, can really hurt you for inflation.

So my advice is to find blue chip dividend paying stocks, have a nice mix. If you want bonds in the portfolio, keep the duration short, and then take out a moderate amount based on sustainable withdraw rate. two, three percent. That makes a lot more sense to nibble on the principle and stuff it into interest bearing accounts.

EVANS: No interest these days by dividend paying stocks, companies that will be around for a while.

Have a question you want answered? Send up an email anytime to


BALDWIN: He was known as the "YouTube Jihadist," the American voice for Al Qaeda. U.S.-born and educated, Anwar al Awlaki was a top recruiter for the terror network until he was killed today in a CIA drone strike in Yemen. Al Awlaki was linked to some of the most infamous recent terror plots aimed specifically at the United States, and he was very savvy with regard to the Internet. He was pen pals actually with Fort Hood Shooting suspect Nidal Hasan. And Awlaki was behind last year's attempt to blow up U.S. cargo planes with explosive hidden in those printer toner cartridges. No doubt al Awlaki is a very, very big get.

But does his killing really deal a very big blow to Al Qaeda? Sajjan Gohel is international security director for the Asia Pacific Foundation. He joins me on the line from London. So Sajjan, in terms of Awlaki's background, he grew up in New Mexico, educated in New Mexico, spoke English, knew the colloquialisms. Can you just speak to that advantage with regard to the fact that this man really understood the western mindset.

SAJJAN GOHEL, INTERNATIONAL SECURITY DIRECTOR, ASIA PACIFIC FOUNDATION: That's a very important point, Brooke, because Awlaki spent a lot of time in the United States. He is an American citizen. Unlike bin Laden or the current leader of Al Qaeda Ayman al Zawqhiri, al Awlaki could speak in an English accent. He could appeal to the Muslim living in the west. He is responsible for having inspired a number of lone wolf terrorists. Those are independent terrorists who aren't necessarily affiliated to Al Qaeda but motivated by the brand and the ideology. And that was very much Anwar Awlaki's contribution. He was part of Al Qaeda's 2.0 generation. He understood new media, how to utilize it for his propaganda purposes.

BALDWIN: You mentioned 2.0. The lone wolf plots and when you look at them closely, the suspects here, they are young, impressionable, men and women looking for a leader and guidance, how to. How has this strike on al Awlaki deprived them on one? Will there then be this dearth of English propaganda leadership or is there always someone waiting in the wings?

GOHEL: Well, it is a blow because Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula has lost an ideologue, and organizer, and a recruiter. But the infrastructure of Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula remains intact. The leadership is still there, the bomb makers are still there, they have the desires, means, and capabilities of plotting mass casualty attacks with or without al Awlaki. But it will hurt them.

Ultimately they may use this for propaganda purposes. They could try and seek a revenge attack. His words still live on the internet. They will be downloaded as podcasts by some individuals. And it doesn't just have an impact on the United States but also in Great Britain, too. And it is an important development. It is a blow. But it won't have unfortunately a significant long-term impact.

BALDWIN: You bring up an excellent point with regard to the podcasts, because of the internet, it's always there. And I guess perhaps Awlaki can live on. His messages can live on through these writings. Is there any way that they can be shut down?

GOHEL: There has often been a debate within the intelligence committee as to how to approach the internet, especially when it comes to the fact that the internet itself is a proliferation of information. There are some of those in the U.S. and law enforcement who believe that they have to keep shutting down radical web forums, prevent them from being able to list all of the doctrine and propaganda statements.

There are others who believe you need to watch what's going on. See who is actively using them, what they are communicating so that you can form better intelligence as to what's taking place.

Both sides have merit. But there is no consensus as to how to deal with the internet. It's difficult to bring one Web site down and they with find an alternative route. Unfortunately the terrorists understand the internet far better than anybody else does. They know how to utilize it for propaganda, recruitment, even for plotting and planning attacks. And that remains the challenge. Are there other al Awlaki followers out there that will no doubt try to use the words of al Awlaki and even bin Laden to recruit new adherents to the terror movement in the future? BALDWIN: Quickly, is there immediately someone on the bench who can rise to this level? Is there a plan b or will that take time?

GOHEL: That will take time. Anwar al Awlaki did not have the same notoriety in his career as Osama bin Laden, but he at the same time was able to recruit and influence people, and it took him only a few years to attain that notoriety. No doubt there will be others. So we have to keep in mind that you can eliminate on terrorist, but there are at least another five coming along the assembly line.

BALDWIN: I really appreciate it.

GOHEL: My pleasure.

BALDWIN: By the way, you can see how Anwar al Awlaki's death will affect Al Qaeda overall. Just go to

Now this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was leaned over the patient. He had -- was holding the patients torso and was moving the patient from the bed to the floor.


BALDWIN: The paramedics that arrived at Michael Jackson's house when he died are taking to the stand. Testimony from Los Angeles you have to hear, next.


BALDWIN: Jurors in the trial of Michael Jackson's physician Conrad Murray are hearing from the paramedics who tried to save the singer's life. Murray is charged with involuntary manslaughter in Michael Jackson's death. Today, day four of his trial in Los Angeles, one of his former patients took the stand today. Robert Russell gave mixed reviews about Dr. Murray. He said he felt abandoned when Murray left his practice to work for Jackson, but he was also complimentary, saying the doctor's advice saved his life.


ROBERT RUSSELL, CONRAD MURRAY'S FORMER PATIENT: He gave me advice on exercise, on eating, you know, just how to live my life, doing away with pressure and stress. That I felt like I had driving in the business world. I needed that pressure. And when I say he saved my life, more so than from the treatment with what he did for me mentally, the advice he gave me saved my life.


BALDWIN: Attorneys are expected to spend a good part of this trial grilling these paramedics. One described Murray as being evasive, saying he didn't tell them about the drugs that were in Jackson's system when they arrived, and they spotted Murray collecting items from Jackson's bedroom.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you came to the bedroom, did you see Dr. Murray?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Describe for me what you see Dr. Murray doing.

SENNEFF: He has a bag in hand and he's picking up items from the floor.


BALDWIN: Let's go to Ted Rowlands. He's been inside the courtroom. Ted, in terms of the evidence with regard to the prosecution's case, how important is that? And what else are you hearing today?

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, very important. Very strong witness. Paramedics are always great witnesses because they don't have an agenda. Just folks that enter a scene and report what they saw. Richard is a first of two and he did two things. First, he established that as far as he was concerned, Jackson was basically dead when he entered the room, went through a number of procedures to get a heart rate.

At one point, he called the UCLA medical center and explained to doctors what he had here and they were -- that's when Murray stepped in, when they ended up taking him to the hospital, but he said there was no sign of life at all for Jackson. The other thing, when he questioned Murray, what are his understood lying conditions, Murray didn't give him much information at all.


SENNEFF: What's his underlying condition? And then I explained to him, the reason I'm asking is because I see an underweight patient, I see an IV here and medication vials on the night stand.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In response to your questioning repeatedly regarding medications, did Dr. Murray provide you with information concerning medications?

SENNEFF: At that point, he said no, he's not taking anything. And then he followed up with I just gave him a little bit of Lorazepam to sleep.


ROWLANDS: Brooke, he never mentioned Propofol at all. We expect to hear from another EMT later today or Monday.

BALDWIN: It's an excellent point. The jurors realize these paramedics for the most part don't have an agenda when taking the witness stand. Ted, thank you. Now, this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The HR representative's words were we're letting you go due to your weight.


BALDWIN: This man claimed he was fired because he was too fat. Can you say lawsuit? But there's more to it than that. If you have a job or want one, maybe have some extra pounds, you will want to stick around to hear this man's story.

Gene Simmons also has a reality show as do the Kardashians. Now, the grandkids of South Africa's former Nelson Mandela, they are getting their own show as well. Those two stories coming up.


BALDWIN: Quick note about this newscast. If you've missed it, come Monday, these will be our final few minutes before I turn things over to Wolf Blitzer. The show is going to move up one hour starting Monday. So you will still get two hours from me and my team, but you just have to watch from 2:00 to 4:0 p.m. Set your Tivos, DVRs, what have you, starting on Monday.

Gene Simmons has a reality show, as do the Kardashians, Paris Hilton once did. Now the grandkids of South Africa's former president Nelson Mandela now getting their own show. CNN's Robyn Curnow has a sneak peek.


ROBYN CURNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As a makeup artist trims the fake eyelashes on one of Nelson Mandela's granddaughters, cameras are rolling. This is still in-the0works of a show that will star three granddaughters of the former South African president.

SWATI DLAMINI, NELSON MANDELA'S GRANDDAUGHTER: It's about us being independent women and independent South African women.

RICK LEED, PRODUCER: In South Africa, they are so well-known.

CURNOW: As their cameras film us filming them, the Hollywood producer investing in the project says networks in south America and South Africa are interested in the planned show.

LEED: We're definitely not going to dumb down these very smart girls. We're not going to trash them up.

CURNOW: Nelson Mandela is now 93. His memory is going and his granddaughter won't say if the Nobel Peace Prize laureate knows about the show.

(on camera) Whether they like it or not, there is going to be criticism. When I tweeted I was here, I got responses such as, "Is there anything the Mandelas are not catching in on?" Another person just said, "very sad."

(voice-over) The Mandelas say they can deal with the criticism, that they're used to it. Mandela is dearly loved in South Africa and the public is protective of his image, worried about anybody tarnishing his legacy, even his family.

DLAMINI: Of course, we have this name, but I think the focus is not really on that. It's about our lives and who we are as individuals.

CURNOW: The show will air says the team in 2012. No more details they say until contracts are sign. Why then, I ask, all the early publicity?

LEED: We felt we need to be a little preemptive. These are going to be the African Kardashians, or they're just going to cash in on being Mandelas. No, we're doing a different show, a native and fresh show.

CURNOW: And having around the clock cameras following them won't be a problem it seems.

DLAMINI: We've grown up having cameras around here and there, so I'm not too worried about it.

CURNOW (on camera): Do you like the camera?

DLAMINI: I wouldn't say I like the camera. I wouldn't say I don't like the camera. The camera is just there.

CURNOW (voice-over): Robyn Curnow, CNN, Johannesburg, South Africa.