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Occupy Wall Street: Day 23; Uproar over "Cult" Remark

Aired October 09, 2011 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. It's at the top of the hour. Thanks for joining us.

I'm Don Lemon. You are in the CNN NEWSROOM.

We start by taking you to the growing "Occupy Wall Street" movement. Now, in its 23rd day of non-stop protests, and the epicenter has been a park in Lower Manhattan, in the financial district.

Occupy events have been popping up all over the country, including this one today right in front of the White House. About 100 people gathered to protest what they call corporate greed and social inequality. One person was arrested when he tried to throw his shoe over the White House fence.

The Secret Service says the shoe hit a uniformed officer. And the man has been charged with assault. There you see him sitting on the sidewalk there.

Today's demonstration follows a tense confrontation Saturday outside of the Air and Space Museum on the National Mall. A couple hundred people were picketing in front of the museum. But when they tried to force their way inside, guards responded with pepper spray.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DENNIS TRAINER JR., PROTESTER: We are peaceful. We did not want to shut down the museum. We did not want to inconvenience tourist. We want to engage in a dialogue using our free speech rights.

We never got past the first door. We never got past the metal detectors. Security came rushing out, bum rushed us like a line of football players, corralled us and pepper sprayed the first dozen of us and forcibly removed most of us. Three people were detained.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, the "Occupy" movement first took root in Lower Manhattan three weeks ago.

CNN's Susan Candiotti spoke with people who came from near and far to see it for themselves.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Eating a bowl of cereal after sleeping under the stars, this retiree and her teenager grandson took a bus from Detroit to camp out with "Occupy Wall Street."

(on camera): Tell me what this is like. You have this tarp.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is home.

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): For a week, choosing to sleep on the ground under a blue tarp, mainly with young people in a public park.

(on camera): Why was it important for you to come here and bring your grandson?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I felt the need to show support to the movement. The politicians apparently don't understand what people need.

HESHI GOREWITZ, BUSINESS PROFESSOR: How are we doing?

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Heshi Gorewitz isn't sleeping with protesters.

GOREWITZ: Are you camping out here? You are doing a great service -- your generation, my generation, everybody. Keep it up, man.

CANDIOTTI: The community college business professor who also founded an upstate farm co-op is just spending the day. He likes the mix of young and old, employed an unemployed, trying to build a consensus.

GOREWITZ: It's happier, it's bigger, it's more sophisticated, it's more real, it's more powerful than I ever could have imagined it. It's -- the 99 percent is what it really is.

Let's not focus on what divides us. Let's focus on what units us. That's the way to bring about change.

HEATHER GAUTNEY, FORDHAM UNIVERSITY: I see this movement as a movement of movements.

CANDIOTTI: Fordham University sociologist Heather Gautney says movements like "Occupy Wall Street" don't really need a leader.

GAUTNEY: I think it's really about grassroots democracy. I think it's about people trying to create ways of expressing themselves politically because they feel that the electoral channels are closed to them.

CANDIOTTI: Change for a teacher, change for a retired grandmother worried about her grandson's future, all looking for signs that someone's listening.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: CNN's Susan Candiotti joins us now live.

So, Susan, do the people there, I'm wondering, do they realize how these protests have spread across the country or because they're out there, are they sort of in a vacuum?

CANDIOTTI: I think that many of them do because, remember, a lot of the people here are really adept at using the social media and to a large degree that's how their message is getting around. And also, Don, they have set up an interesting community around here. For example, I don't know if you can see past me here. They even have a sign set up here with the daily weather report that tells people what it's going to be like and what the rules of the camp are. For example, we observe quiet hours, this kind of thing.

So, they're really trying to be as organized as they possibly can. Yet, really going day-by-day deciding one day at a time what will happen the next day at one of these people assemblies. And it's quiet a diverse group here as we try to indicate in that story that you just saw.

LEMON: All right. Looks like, again, the crowd -- you are downtown but you were at the other one that was at Washington Square Park yesterday. So, they got more numbers there. I'm sure for you, you have been covering this a long time, does it feel like Groundhog's Day or do you see, personally yourself, that it is growing, not only there, but also at Washington Square Park.

COSTELLO: Well, definitely, it's busier today this Sunday than it was last Sunday. Of course, we have about -- it's about 15 degrees warmer than it was last Sunday. That's part of it, of course. And it is a Sunday and people are off work and so, it's easier to get down here and take a look around.

At the same time, clearly, we have seen protests growing around in different cities around the country. So, yes, the numbers do appear to be growing, but not to the degree they were last Wednesday. I mean, that was the largest march we saw when the unions joined in.

So, we'll wait and see whether this has staying power, especially when it starts to get colder.

LEMON: That's certainly is a question. Susan Candiotti, thank you very much.

For many people who grew up in the '60s, "Occupy Wall Street" reminds them of the anti-war and civil rights movements. And I ask civil rights icon, Dr. Joseph Lowery, for his impression about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. JOSEPH LOWERY, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: It definitely reminds me that this is a spontaneous people movement that has not come about of any long-range planning on anybody's part. This is spontaneous and it's -- I think, it's a spiritual explosion that's happening in this country. It may very well turn to a serious movement to help America straighten up and fly right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Dr. Joseph Lowery, much more on the "Occupy" movement just ahead, over the next two hours.

Coming up, David Weidner in of the "Wall Street Journal" will join us to discuss how it differs, if at all, from the Tea Party.

The last gasps of forces loyal to ousted Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi.

Libya's new leaders on the National Transitional Council say they are in the final stages of the fight to take over Gadhafi's hometown Sirte. It's the most important remaining stronghold for Gadhafi supporters. The NTC is waiting for the city to fall before declaring liberation. Gadhafi's whereabouts are still unknown but NTC military commanders say it's unlikely that he's still controlling any forces.

So, apparently, Mitt Romney's religion is a problem -- at least for some. It was a big issue four years ago and looks like it still is. Can the former Massachusetts governor get elected president? We'll talk about it with our political analyst. That's next.

And a war widow needs your help. She has lost the symbol of the union with her late husband, his wedding ring.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: OK. Nothing makes political sparks fly like mixing religion with a race for the White House. Just ask Republican Mitt Romney. An influential Baptist minister on Friday labeled Romney's Mormon fate a cult.

Here's what he said to CNN's Jim Acosta.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. ROBERT JEFFRESS, FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH OF DALLAS: The Southern Baptist Convention, which is the largest protestant denomination in the world, has officially labeled Mormonism as a cult. I think Romney is a good, moral man. But I think those of us who are born again followers of Christ should always prefer a competent Christian to a competent non-Christian like Mitt Romney.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, you know those remarks caused an uproar. Romney didn't respond directly but he did call for an end to, quote, "poisonous language."

So, let's talk about it now.

Will Cain, CNN contributor, and LZ Granderson, a contributor to CNN.com and a senior writer for ESPN.

OK, guys, the three of us, we discussed this issue last week -- and, Will, I'm going to place something you had to say after LZ said a lot of Republicans have a big problem with Mormonism, all right? Here it is.

WILL CAIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: All right.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAIN: No. In fact, LZ, it's absurd. I travel in many conservative circles. I've got a pretty good exposure to that electorate and not once have I heard somebody say, you know, I've got a real problem with Mitt Romney and it boils down to the fact that he's a Mormon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Will, you have the floor.

CAIN: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

CAIN: OK. So look, I'm going to walk that back a little bit. Here's what I'm going to say. I may have underplayed that a little bit using words like "absurd." Let me say this, though. I do want to say why someone like me might have a kneejerk reaction like that, have an instinctual response to under play that because, honestly, as a conservative, sometimes I find myself surrounded by bigot hunters. People that are professional dog whistle listeners and it constantly puts me as a conservative on the defense that I always have to feel like I have to prove that I'm not a bigot.

So, I think I was probably guilty of that in that last conversation. So, I'm not saying you guys were suggesting that. But I'm just saying this is -- whenever race or religion comes up, this is the place from which I have to start.

Now, I might have been wrong in how I characterized it last week, but my original position I will stand by. Although there are people out there like the pastor in Dallas who think this is an issue, I am behind the closed doors you guys talk about. And I don't think it's a big issue. It may be an issue, but it's not a big issue.

LEMON: Remember, LZ said it, I just, you know --

CAIN: I know.

LEMON: He said it.

So, but the thing is, but what I will say that what I said to you after that was that it would be disingenuous to think that that is at least not one part of it because we went through this four years ago. And so, it's just surprising that we are going through it again, and that we are giving it so much attention because there are bigger issues. You see the people out on Wall Street. You see the Tea Party, smaller government, people don't have jobs. There are other issues that are more important to this as we look at these live pictures coming from Manhattan now, the "Occupy Wall Street" movement.

So, LZ, you know, I was struck by the pastor's comments. Why does he think he can question a presidential candidate's religious faith? LZ GRANDERSON, CNN.COM CONTRIBUTOR: Look, first of all, I want to tell Will you are still in denial. I don't know why you keep thinking that these conversations behind these closed doors you're behind are somehow excluding Romney's religion. Mormonism is a problem because so many evangelical Christians believe he's going to hell, and no one wants to vote for anyone who's going to hell.

And I think that's the reason why people pay close attention to who the president is and who the president chooses to worship because the Bible strictly says and if you are a fundamentalist and you follow the Bible literally, it says no man can come to the father but by me. That's Jesus' words.

So, you're looking and you're saying, well, this guy isn't following Jesus, then whoever he's following is not the right person. He's going to hell, I can't vote for someone who's going to hell and that's the reason why we keep having this conversation over and over again.

LEMON: Go ahead real quickly, Will, because I want to --

CAIN: I'm just very curious because LZ knows, I don't have a dog in this fight. I believe nothing honestly. I mean, Christianity, Mormonism, they are competing myths to me.

But I don't understand that religion should be off the table. It seems like religion is something that informs our decision-making. It informs our world view. It informs our philosophical bearings.

When we're choosing the leader of the world, I don't really understand why we should exempt their religious beliefs as part of our analysis.

LEMON: Well, you said competing -- hold on, hold on, hold on -- you said competing myths. What do you mean by competing myths?

CAIN: Don, I've written about it. LZ knows. I'm agnostic. I'm a nonbeliever.

LEMON: All right. So, here's the thing. By doing this, is this opening a powder keg because the Catholic Church, Christianity, all religions have been compared by people who are against them or somebody that doesn't believe in God as cult like? Couldn't the same argument be made about other religions?

GRANDERSON: Absolutely. I mean, if you look back at the very beginning of Christianity, as you were saying, I mean, you had Jesus saying everything you were taught before me was wrong. What I'm saying is true.

Now, if someone were going to get on television and say that, you would look at them as a cult leader. That's the way Jesus was looked at in his time. And we have to remember that history.

But I'll tell you what's the most disturbing thing to me about all of this, is that there are so many opportunities for both President Obama, as well as the other individuals running for the White House to get in front of a microphone and say, this is America. It doesn't matter what your religion is because we have freedom of religion, freedom of expression, and none of this should be impacting the White House. But they keep ducking it and actually pandering by saying, no, no, no, I'm Christian. Or if you are Romney, you don't talk about your religion at all.

And I think what needs to happen is that someone needs to stand up and remind America what America stands for because, right now, all we're doing is, you know, ducking the question because no one wants to offend the far right.

LEMON: All right. You are preaching there.

GRANDERSON: I'm sorry.

LEMON: Yes, I know. I usually try to make it short or shorter answers but I mean, I think this is an important conversation. Thank you. Thank you for being honest here on television.

So, Will, what do you say to that? And I guess the real question is, does it help or hurt the Republican Party and most of all, does it help or hurt the person he introduced, which was Rick Perry? Who -- does anyone win in all of this?

CAIN: That's a tough question to answer, Don, because this goes back to your original question to me, is how much does this issue matter to voters? I can't deny that it matters something to some voters, but the question none of us can answer is how much.

To be honest, we are all guessing. So, will this help or hurt Rick Perry? I'm sure there's a segment of Christians out there that believe the same thing that pastor said about Mormonism. And it won't Rick Perry with them.

Will it hurt Rick Perry with general election voters -- general -- should he win the primary, I don't know. I think LZ has some interesting things to say about religion there, but I don't think it answers the question which we ask, is if religion is so important in forming who we are, why should it be something we exempt from the debate?

LEMON: All right. We'll have to leave it at that. Thank you, guys. I really appreciate your candor coming on and I like the honesty of this conversation. Keep it up. Thank you very much.

CAIN: Thanks.

LEMON: Coming up here on CNN, the ultimate case of trying to find a needle in a haystack. Take a look at the lengths one Virginia woman is going through to try to find her husband's lost wedding band. Their story will break your heart.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: This week marked the tenth anniversary of America's longest running war, Afghanistan. And one of the lowest points occurred in August when an attack on a Chinook helicopter killed Americans. Navy SEAL Aaron Carson Vaughn was among them. Just recently, Vaughn's widow lost his wedding band shown here in the family photo. She had been wearing it since her husband's death.

Vaughn's grandmother told me about their last conversation on his 30th birthday.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GENEVA CARSON VAUGHN, GRANDMOTHER OF KILED NAVY SEAL: I told him to be careful and he said, "Granny, don't worry about me." He said, "I'm not afraid because I know where I'm going if something happens to me." Aaron was a Christian and he stood firm in his faith.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

LEMON: So, that was Aaron's grandmother back in August when it first happened. Now, his wife joins us now.

And since then, you have sadly lost your husband and now you lost one of the things that you think that was closest to you and him.

KIMBERLY VAUGHN, WIDOW OF NAVY SEAL: Absolutely. He left his wedding band with me before this deployment. And the day that I found out that he had been killed in action, I went downstairs and I had been wearing it on my right hand thumb ever since that day.

LEMON: Yes.

VAUGHN: And I took a trip to Texas last week and looked down on one of the flights and realized that it was missing, and that I had lost it. So, it was pretty crushing.

LEMON: The producers asked you for a picture of the ring and you looked for it and you think this was the last time you wore it?

VAUGHN: Absolutely. I was looking through my camera for another picture and I noticed on October 1st, that I had taken this and I was wearing the ring. My father snapped it of me on the airplane and I was like, OK, that's one less place. I know it's not in the hotel or car -- the rental car. That it's actually either on that airplane, in the Charlotte airport, or on the next plane.

Thrifty rental car was wonderful, they tracked down the actual rental car, took the seats out, pulled up the flooring to look for this ring. And -- I mean, that's really amazing to me that total strangers would be willing to do this for something -- although such little monetary value means -- you know, it's just, well, priceless for me.

LEMON: So I think anyone would say, you know what? You have made a big effort. You have made a big effort here and others would say, you know, it's just an object. Maybe you should just give up and say it's an object.

How do you feel about that?

VAUGHN: Well, this kind of snowballed. It was basically a suggestion of a friend to put it on Facebook, hoping to reach out to some people, maybe the cleaning crew in the airport, just someone that I wouldn't necessarily know who said, hey, I found that ring.

And yes, it is small in value and people probably lose wedding bands or jewelry all the time. But to me, it was just something tangible that my husband used to wear that I could wear that just reminded me of our commitment and love.

And, of course, I'll move on and I'll be fine without it, but it's just a memento that meant lot to us, that I'm hoping that I can get back.

LEMON: Yes. Kimberly, are you going to ever give up, do you think?

VAUGHN: You know, it's a memory that I'll always have. It's not going to change the love that Aaron and I shared. So, you know, I'm just hoping -- excuse me, that I can find it, that there's a good Samaritan out there who will turn it in. But you know it won't change, my focus now is raising my two wonderful children and just remembering the love that Aaron and I shared.

LEMON: Well, I say you are going to find it, because the whole world is looking for this ring.

VAUGHN: Thanks.

LEMON: Thank you for the sacrifice not only that your husband Aaron made but the sacrifice that you made, your family. And can you please tell Geneva Carson Vaughn, the grandmother, I said we are all thinking of her and the rest of the family?

VAUGHN: Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing my story.

LEMON: Thank you.

Kimberly Vaughn kick-started her search by starting a support group on Facebook. Let's check in on the Find Aaron Vaughn's wedding band page. And you can see it there. It now has about 11,000 members.

And again, thanks to Kimberly and good luck to her.

An important visitor is headed to the White House this week.

And did you hear the voice of Michael Jackson this week? Audiotapes of the pop star played during the trial of his doctor. It's a Michael Jackson you have never heard before.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Now to the big stories on the week ahead. From the White House to Wall Street to Hollywood, our correspondents tell you where you need to go. We begin tonight with the president's plans for the week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DAN LOTHIAN, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I'm Dan Lothian at the White House -- where this week President Obama heads down the street and out of state as he visits with wounded service members at Walter Reed Medical Center in Maryland. That's on Monday.

Then, on Tuesday, he heads to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, where he'll meet with union members. The focus, of course, will be on job creation. He wraps up the day in Orlando, Florida, with fund-raisers.

Then, finally, on Thursday, a state visit, the White House welcomes the president and first lady of the republic of Korea.

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: I'm Chris Lawrence at the Pentagon where after a brief break on Monday to celebrate the Columbus Day holiday, the Defense Department kicks in to high gear. It's highlighted by the Association of the U.S. Army Convention here in Washington, D.C.

Most of the Pentagon officials will be there talking about the Army's strategy, personnel. We expect to see some technology advances rolled out, the use of robots in the field.

And then on Thursday, the secretary of defense and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff both head to Capitol Hill to testify on national defense 10 years after 9/11.

POPPY HARLOW, CNNMONEY.COM: I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.

Well, on the economic docket this week, retail sales figures for last month are due out. The report is going to give us some insight into consumer spending as we approach the all-important holiday shopping season.

Also, coming up, we'll get a look at consumer spending and consumer sentiment. The latest U.S. trade balance. That's due out, along with import and export prices.

And in Washington, the Senate will vote on free trade deals with South Korea, Colombia and Panama. Track it all on CNN Money.

A.J. HAMMER, ANCHOR, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT: I'm "Showbiz Tonight's" A.J. Hammer.

Here's what we are watching this week: Kim Kardashian's over-the-top wedding finally airs on TV. Was it worth the wait?

Also, Cher on "Dancing with the Stars." Will she show up and will her appearance actually help to keep Chaz Bono on the show?

Make sure you catch "Showbiz Tonight" exclusively, Sunday to Friday, 11:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, on HLN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: All right.

Now, let's look ahead at the nation's weather.

Storms are hitting the Southeast and Florida is getting soaked right now.

Meteorologist Jacqui Jeras has the details for us.

Jacqui, what's going on?

JACQUI JERAS, AMS METEOROLOGIST:

(WEATHER REPORT)

LEMON: And you'll be keeping a close eye on that.

JERAS: Of course.

LEMON: Thank you very much, Jacqui Jeras.

Up next on CNN, more on our top story. The Occupy Wall Street movement that is growing in membership and spreading across the country. I will talk to a columnist from the "Wall Street Journal" and ask, are there similarities between the Occupy Wall Street movement and the Tea Party? Can they have a Tea Party impact?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SHOUTING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: All right, the Occupy Wall Street protest has drawn a big, fat bull's eye on America's financial system, saying it unfairly favors the wealthy. You're looking at live pictures now of that movement in Manhattan.

David Weidner writes for the Market Watch column for the "Wall Street Journal." He joins us now.

So, David, how is this protest affecting the stock exchange, first?

DAVID WEIDNER, MARKET WATCH COLUMNIST, WALL STREET JOURNAL: Well, I think early on -- we're in our fourth week now, and I think early on, there was sort of a kind -- it was largely being ignored. There have been a lot of protests against the financial system in New York since the financial crisis. But one thing about the dedication of these kids, staying down there and keeping at it, confronting police. I think Wall Street is really taking notice of this now and they are wondering, is this a movement that is going to shape politics, shape public policy, and make it tougher for them to do their business? What was before, what was kind of a traffic problem for people downtown, has now become is this going to affect the way we make our living.

LEMON: So you think they are really paying attention for the most part?

WEIDNER: I think that is most definitely the case. The size of the crowd is growing. Obviously, there's much more media attention now. It was three weeks ago, you couldn't find it on national networks and big newspapers and local papers here. Now every day, there's story after story. I was just flipping through the channels. There were multiple reports on the size of the crowds, the quiet protests downtown. So this is definitely getting the attention of financial professionals.

LEMON: And the reason I ask you -- and we did, the first weekend it happened, we did cover it on this program. It didn't have as much attention because it wasn't as big. Now it is growing, it is garnering more attention.

WEIDNER: Yes.

LEMON: The reason I ask you that is because Wall Street is not going to just change and, say, OK, we are going to give you what you want out of the goodness of our hearts. There will have to be some intervention and it will probably come from the government. That's why I ask you, are they really paying attention? Because, in essence, they really don't have to. Change doesn't come -- it's not going to come from inside.

WEIDNER: I think what is making the people on Wall Street nervous is they saw how the Tea Party started from this same sort of anonymous, low-key, dismissed movement and became a real force in American politics, pushing the GOP further to the right and much more fiscally conservative. And I think that's the fear here. They are worried this movement, which is -- you know, has a lot of different interests. But it is primarily coming from the left, is going to push the left side of the American political spectrum and have an influence in 2012, and maybe a pushback against the Tea Party politics that we saw come out of it.

Don, I really think will is a distinction between the two. I think they are growing very much the same way in terms of how the movements are getting traction and getting exposure and becoming more powerful. I think there's a strong correlation between the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street.

LEMON: I laugh --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I smile, because that was my next question, and you just went to it.

(LAUGHTER)

Because there's disagreement. If you ask members of the Tea Party and some Tea Parties say, this is no different. Even Eric Cantor said he was concerned about the mobs taking over Wall Street. But it's -- both are grassroots movement that came out of frustration, whether one is political, as the Tea Party says they are political, but this movement said it is not political. They are focusing on money. But ultimately, it will have to be about politics, as I think you said.

WEIDNER: I think that's exactly right. They are talking about financial influence in the democratic process. They feel that their generation, they are part of society, this so-called 99 percent doesn't have a voice, doesn't have buttons to push and ways to get their rights and their needs taken care of, Don. So, it is very much a political movement, even though they say that they are not. In as, they want democracy returned to the people. They see corporate America finance, big business, big banks as pushing all of the buttons in Washington right now, and they like feel they are out of it. So I know that there's the rhetoric coming out of Occupy Wall Street but there is a very strong political part of this.

LEMON: David Weidner, "Wall Street Journal."

Thank you, sir. Appreciate it.

The trial of Michael Jackson's doctor has looked more like an episode of "The Dating Game." It's the many women of Conrad Murray, including one who seemed to be auditioning for a reality TV show. What Jane Velez-Mitchell has to say about it in just two minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: You may not have been paying attention, but it was chilling. The chilling frail voice of Michael Jackson echoes in a Los Angeles courtroom. And the many ladies of Dr. Conrad Murray put on a show at his trial.

I talked about all of this, the Murray case and more with HLN's Jane Velez-Mitchell.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: So, Jane, we're really going inside of this whole investigation. We've heard new audio of Michael Jackson this week, new audio of Conrad Murray this week. It is riveting.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES" ON HLN: It is mesmerizing, Don. It is Shakespearean in its drama. This doctor describing to cops how, in his words, he was kind of seduced into providing Propofol to Michael Jackson, something that is a huge no-no for a doctor to give a surgical knockout drug as a sleep aid. But it's kind of like a confession, but also a rationalization. I guess all confessions would contain rationalizations of, well, here's why I did it. Because he said to me, it's the only thing that works for me, and he was so knowledgeable about pharmacology, and he knew how to do it, and he said he liked to actually do the injection himself, and that other doctors had let him do the injection. And that's where Dr. Murray drew the line. He said, oh, no, I'm not going to let you inject yourself. But he crossed many lines.

LEMON: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And he gave Michael Jackson Propofol, not once, but over and over and over again.

LEMON: We will talk about that. A lot of that Propofol, found in Michael Jackson's room. One of those vials had Conrad Murray's fingerprints on it.

But I want to talk about the Michael Jackson video. We heard a little bit at the beginning and then we're hearing the rest of it. It is frightening because you hear him slurring. You can barely make out what he is saying. And you see all the drugs that are in his room. The guy, quite honestly, was a walking medicine cabinet.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. The big question is, why did Conrad Murray make this tape of Michael Jackson slurring his words? There are a million theories out there, a blackmail tape, insurance against getting fired, a way of proving to Michael Jackson himself how messed up he was, a way to test the sedation, so that we knew how long it worked. There are some who are claiming maybe it was a script that he was forced to read. It is just a boone for the conspiracy theorists. It is an extraordinary tape. And, of course, it is very, very sad. We want to remember this superstar, this legend, for his music. And unfortunately, right now, we are remembering him for this.

LEMON: There's so much that happened this week. As I said in the beginning, this is riveting. You had those two audiotapes. Then you have the mother of one of Conrad Murray's children testifying. It is really about all of these beautiful young women who Conrad Murray had a relationship, dating. I'm not sure. They all testified. One of them even, it appeared, to be preening for the camera.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes, his -- well, some would call baby mama, girlfriend, the mother of his seventh child, which he has had by several different women, all of these children. And here she is, she is a beautiful actress. She's wearing a rather sexy dress for court, with bare arms. She is asked by the prosecutor what you do, and she says, by the prosecutor, I'm an actress. And what do you do during the day, well, I work on my instrument. and the prosecutor says, what is your instrument, and she said, I am my instrument. That immediately became the talk of the town. I am my instrument. It is one of those only-in-Hollywood moments. And she did appear to be enjoying it a little too much, and auditioning for some unknown casting director out there.

LEMON: All the while, she is turned toward the jury and she's like sort of preening. Let's say it was different, to say the least.

Jane Velez-Mitchell. "Issues" with Jane Velez-Mitchell airs every night at 7:00 p.m. on HLN.

We will be watching, Jane. Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you, Don.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: The Lions roaring. The Eagles looking like their wings have been clipped. What's behind the biggest surprise and disappointment in the NFL so far this season? We will talk about that and Tiger's return with a senior writer from "Sports Illustrated." That's next.

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LEMON: From worst to first. That the Detroit Lions, a team that didn't win a game three years ago, is now one of the only unbeaten teams in the NFL.

And joining us to talk about it is Lee Jenkins of "Sports Illustrated."

Here's this week's cover. It's the Lions' Calvin Johnson scoring on the Cowboys last week.

Lee, welcome to the program.

What's behind the Lion's surge?

LEE JENKINS, SENIOR WRITER, SPORTS ILLUSTRATED: I mean, they are 4-0 for the first time since 1980. When you are this bad for this long, as the Lions have been, you will be picking high on the draft pretty much every year. And finally, some of those first-round picks are coming home to roost. Matthew Stafford, the quarterback who they picked number one overall, and actually went to the same high school as Bobby Lane, the legendary Lions quarterback. You have Calvin Johnson, a 6'5" receiver who is pretty much unguardable, and Doma Kasu (ph), a 300-pound defensive tackle, who's really anchoring the new defense from Jim Schwartz, their head coach. And the Lions were down 20 to nothing in a game to weeks ago. They come back and win 20-3 last week. They come back and win again.

LEMON: Yes.

JENKINS: It's just a completely new attitude that Schwartz has instilled.

LEMON: It's all about, they've got great talent. But can they continue this all season? That's what everybody's wondering, and I'm sure Lions fans are hoping.

JENKINS: Yes, and it's going to be hard. They play in the same division as the Green Bay Packers, arguably the best team in football. So I don't know if you can expect them to win that division. But certainly, these players aren't flukes. These first-round picks are legitimate talents and this team is here to stay for a long time.

LEMON: If the Lions are the surprise team, the Philadelphia Eagles, at 1-4, are probably the most disappointing. Weren't they called the dream team before the season started? What's happened to them?

JENKINS: Now they're begging people to take that label off. They're really proof that, even though you can have these marquee- skill players in the NFL, the game comes down to those big guys up front, the sort of anonymous players in the offensive and defensive lines. And the Eagles' offensive line, at this point, is inferior. Their defense isn't very aggressive. Today, Michael Vick threw four picks. And we're seeing what happened to him in Atlanta, happening again in Philadelphia, where he's running for his life. He's still an incredible athlete, but maybe not the elite quarterback the Eagles wanted.

LEMON: All right. While on pro football, since we're talking about it, I want to say this, an NFL legend died Saturday. Al Davis, coach and then owner of the Oakland Raiders, who made famous the line, "Just win, baby." How will he be remembered?

JENKINS: Young fans will sort of remember him as this maverick in his satin suits, kind of looking down from the luxury box, a guy who forced the raiders from Oakland to L.A. and then back again. But if you take the longer view, this was a college-position coach, who rose to become an owner, who won three Super Bowls with the Raiders. He was the commissioner of the AFL. And really spearheaded that AFL/NFL merger, which has given us the sport that's the most popular in America today.

LEMON: He will be missed. Now let's move on to baseball, the playoffs. The three big payroll teams, the Yankees, the Red Sox and the Phillies, all now sitting at home. Is this a sign of parody or just a fluke? Who emerges as the World Series favorite here?

JENKINS: Well, I mean, all these teams that are left -- maybe it is a sign of parody. You probably have three teams that could all win it, the Rangers, the Tigers, and the Brewers. The Cardinals would probably be considered the underdog in that group. What it is really is that you have these elite teams in baseball, and when you get in these best-of-five first-round series that the Yankees and Phillies both found themselves in, it's almost like the NCAA tournament. Anybody can win in that kind of a format. There are that many sort of elite teams in baseball. Maybe you have as many as 10. But you're right, the top nine payroll teams now out of it. Money still matters. Those three teams you mentioned were all in it, up until the final day, but it's obviously not everything

LEMON: I want to talk a little golf quick. Let's talk about Tiger Woods. He returned to action this week in California and he played better. I guess, playing better -- we can't really gauge whether he's on his way back just from one game, right?

JENKINS: You know, he shot 68 for two straight days. I think that's a sign of improvement. He's still looking for consistency, though. Tiger has a new caddie, Joe LaCava, who was Fred Couples' long-time caddie. He's known LaCava since he was an amateur. That could make him more comfortable. He certainly seemed that way over the weekend. But at some point, it's going to be time for Tiger Woods, not just to make cuts, but to win tournaments. We don't know yet when that's going to be. The inconsistency's been too great.

LEMON: All right, Lee Jenkins, "Sports Illustrated."

Thank you, sir. We appreciate you joining us.

JENKINS: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

LEMON: Showing their pride, gays and lesbians celebrate in Atlanta. Just ahead, the Reverend Joseph Lowery, a pioneer of civil rights, and his thoughts on today's fight for equality.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Out and proud. Thousands line the streets this afternoon for the annual Atlanta Pride Parade. This is the 41st year of the festival, which has grown into one of the biggest LGBT events in the south. The celebration comes in the middle of a banner year for gay rights with the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell taking effect less than three weeks ago.

You know, same-sex marriage, however, is still illegal in all but six states, in all but six states. But the push to legalize it throughout the land has drawn parallels to the civil rights movement. The leaders from that era have, at times, been reluctant to support the push for gay rights.

I had a chance to speak with a true civil rights icon, the Reverend Joseph Lowery, on the occasion of his 90th birthday. Well, he told me his views on gay issues are evolving. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REV. JOSEPH LOWERY, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: You're either for equal rights or you're not. You can't be partially for equal rights. Equal rights means what it says, everybody has an equal opportunity and equal privileges. And while I think we'd have less controversy if we just dealt with civil unions, I can't -- committed to equal rights, I can't deny anybody the right to engage in same-sex marriage. I don't -- you know, I think it would be better off the other way, and I have had problems with it, because I grew up under boy/girl, man/woman, romance and marriage. But I realize that equal rights are equal rights.

LEMON: How can you say that as a religious person, as a minister? Think about what the religious doctrines, the church teaches, what the Bible says.

LEMON: Let's be careful -- what does the Bible say that you're talking about? What does the Bible say that you're talking about?

The Bible talks about equal rights. The Bible talks about all God's children got shoes. The Bible talks about -- when you talk about one or two accounts in the Bible, in Leviticus and so forth, that talks about homosexuality, there are also passages that talk about slaves, obey your master. I reject that, just like I reject other passages. I look at God's word holistically. The truth of the matter is God insisted that all God's children got shoes and got equal rights. And if you believe in equal rights, you cannot deny any of God's children any portion of rights.

LEMON: Including gay people?

LOWERY: Including gay people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: The Reverend Joseph Lowery. By the way, he's being honored right now in Atlanta with a star-studded birthday celebration. CNN's own Soledad O'Brien is M.C.'ing the event with appearance by Stevie Wonder, Jennifer Holliday, Peabo Bryson, Cecily Tyson and more.