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High Stakes In Vegas Debate; Missing Baby's Mom Was Drunk; Disabled Adults Held Captive; High Stakes For The Debate; Catholic Nuns From China; Israel Swaps Prisoners For Soldier

Aired October 18, 2011 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOE JOHNS, CNN ANCHOR: Good to see you, Suzanne.

What we know right now is horrific, but what the FBI and police in Philadelphia are still trying to figure out could be worse. They're desperate to learn exactly how many mentally disabled or otherwise vulnerable adults fell victim to an alleged scheme to steal their government benefits. Four such people were discovered over the weekend in a dark and putrid Philadelphia basement. Three of them have spoken with a local reporter. Listen to this carefully.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAMARA BREEDEN: Hit me with a bat in my head and all this was all bleeding and everything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was real dirty of you. That was wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you guys willingly give her your information?

BREEDEN: No, she asked for it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She took it, she took it away from me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS: The alleged tormenters are Eddy Wright, Linda Ann Weston, and Gregory Thomas, each of whom faces numerous charges and being held on two and is being on $2.5 million dollars bond. Weston did time in the mid-1980s for locking her sister's boyfriend in a closet until he starved to death.

Much more recently, she had a house in Florida and she had the I.D.s, Social Security numbers or powers of attorney for some 50 other people when they arrested her. Finding those people, learning their stories is no small job but some questions are still being answered. Just this morning, police in West Palm Beach confirmed that a 15-year-old girl who was last seen in July with Gregory Thomas or Thomas's teenage son was found apparently safe in Philly. The girl's mom is elated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUANA RODRIGUEZ: I just want to hold her and love her and just -- I don't know, I don't have -- I want to hold her and -- I just want to hold her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: Now, we want to bring in CNN's Sarah Hoye, who's been covering the story up close, and I do mean up close. Sara, tell us about your visit to that virtual dungeon.

SARAH HOYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, John. Last night we were able to go into this basement, it was dark, it was cramped, and it smelled. The scent of urine, or that ammonia in urine, was so strong it burned my nostrils. There was also a metal mop bucket that had feces in it. It was dark, it was very claustrophobic, I actually had them turn the lights off and close the door. Being in there for five minutes, John, I couldn't imagine being in there for a week or two weeks.

JOHNS: Now, what do we know, if we do, about the other people who could have been subjected to at least this kind of treatment, Sara?

HOYE: Well, we don't know much. We -- like you said in the local reports, we are hearing that one of the victims did meet Linda Weston on the Internet, possibly a dating site. The police aren't going into a lot of details because they have a lot of work to do, and they have a case that needs to go to trial. So, they're kind of keeping some details close to the chest.

JOHNS: All right. Great, thanks so much for that, Sara.

Tonight the Republican presidential candidates square off in Las Vegas. You'll be able to see all the action right here starting at 8:00 Eastern. Some of the candidates are hoping to keep the momentum going while others may be looking for a quick spark to reignite their campaign.

Our T.J. Holmes is live in Las Vegas. T.J., are all candidates there preparing? I think, what, one at least has not shown up?

T.J. HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, when we say all, all that plan on participating because we had one candidate say he was going to boycott the CNN debate. Of course we're talking about Jon Huntsman, so we had to put one of the podiums back in our truck. We're not going to use one of them. Today of course, is all this big dust up now, that's one of the story lines surrounding tonight's debate.

Jon Huntsman says he's going to stay in New Hampshire, he's going to campaign in New Hampshire, he's going to put his chips on New Hampshire and he's doing this as a show of solidarity, the stand with New Hampshire, because they are kind of -- at least they would say, getting hosed by Nevada which has moved up its caucus date to January 14th. Iowa, of course, now is going on January 3rd.

So, New Hampshire doesn't have enough room in between the two really to have its primary. They might have to go in December. So what he's doing is saying, I am going to show New Hampshire that I'm standing with you and it's wrong what Nevada did. Now, he's boycotting the debate, but at least five candidates said they will boycott the Nevada caucuses all together. So, you have that storyline going on right now.

But again, that's maybe a side bar. The bigger issue, of course, is the economy, jobs, that will be a big issue in tonight's debate and all of these debates. But a lot of people, Joe, will question, well, Las Vegas, is that the right backdrop? You know, this gambling mecca with all those billions of dollars going on the casino floors, and for entertainment, isn't Las Vegas a wash in cash? Well, absolutely not, this is the ideal spot to have this debate and to have this conversation about the economy because when people over on the east coast are hit by the economy, that means they're not going to fly to Las Vegas and they're not going to spend their money. That's what they depend on right here is you and your dollars, and you having some extra dollars to spend.

So, the highest unemployment rate in the country of any major metro area is right here in Las Vegas, Joe, so you can bet -- you can bet, sorry for that pun, but still, you can bet you will be hearing a lot this evening about the economy, and a lot probably about 999 which Herman Cain getting a lot more attention these days.

JOHNS: Right. All good points, T.J. Cain, Romney on defense, we've got Perry on offense, it's going to be interesting to watch and you'll be there.

And remember, you can see the CNN Western Republican presidential debate tonight at 8:00 Eastern tonight. Our Anderson Cooper is the pit boss for the debate tonight so tune in and check it out.

Here's something the president didn't count on during his bus tour through North Carolina and Virginia. While he revs up crowds talking about his jobs bill, somebody got to work stealing a truck containing sound equipment, presidential podiums, presidential seals (ph). Police recover the truck, but it's not clear if they got back all of the equipment. The feds do say the truck did not carry anything sensitive or classified, but the trip itself is a sensitive subject with Republicans who say all of this time on a million dollar bus is a campaign swing and not the people's business.

What is one man's life worth? How more than 1,000 Palestinians are being traded for one Israeli soldier. But first, this just isn't something you see every day. Fifty-two catholic nuns from China running in the Beijing marathon. Outfitted in their white t-shirts and black sweat pants, the nuns raised money for charity. Nuns participating in a major public event is actually quite unusual in China. They normally keep a low profile because religion is still state controlled in China. So, for the four dozen or so who participated, you're today's "Rock Star."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHNS: Day of joy in Israel, joy in Gaza, joy in the west bank. A hugely uncommon convergence all because of one Israeli soldier and hundreds of Palestinian prisoners are free. Israeli Gilad Shalit, captured in Gaza in June 2006 and held by Hamas ever since. The Palestinians were locked up for crimes against Israel up to and including murder. Four hundred seventy-seven were freed today, more than 500 others due to be freed by year's end. The Israeli ambassador to Washington was a guest on CNN this morning. My colleague Kyra Phillips asked why his country would give so much to bring just one man home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL OREN, ISRAELI AMBASSADOR: We've had similar exchanges in the past after the 1967 six-day war, we exchanged over 6,000 Arab prisoners for two Israeli pilots. That type of commitment to our children who go out to defend our country has enabled us to remain strong in the face of terror.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: CNN's Kevin Flower joins me from Jerusalem. And Kevin, let's talk a little about how the swap came about.

KEVIN FLOWER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Joe, this is a deal years in the making. Both sides have been negotiating for a long time about this release. And the numbers that they've been talking about have been about the same that we saw in this final deal. But in the end, both sides decided that now is the time to act. Israeli prime minister calculating that Israel could probably never get a better deal than it was going to get today for the release of Gilad Shalit and for Hamas, who was holding that soldier captive, a calculation that now is the time to sort of bolster their own popularity with the Palestinian people by making a bold move and getting so many Palestinian prisoners freed in one stroke -- Joe.

JOHNS: I noticed that Gilad Shalit's father had some public comments just a little while ago. Did he talk at all about his son's condition?

FLOWER: He did indeed. Noam Shalit, who has led a very public campaign, went outside his house in northern Israel today to address the throngs of reporters and supporters who had camped out outside. This is what he said to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NOAM SHALIT (translator): Today, we come to the end of a long, exhausting journey which began in July of 2006 and has come to an end four years, he says, and four months later in October 2011, Gilad has come home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLOWER: So Joe, very -- clearly, a very relieved Shalit family. Noam Shalit also said that they were experiencing the rebirth of their son. So, a very happy Shalit family and a very happy Israeli public as well.

JOHNS: Kevin Flower in Jerusalem. Thanks so much for that reporting. This has been a long odyssey for Gilad Shalit.

The stakes will be understandably high at the Las Vegas GOP debate tonight, but they may be even higher for one the candidates. It's fair game and it's next. But first, John King on how politics is like dating.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Now we've had our first date and our second date and our third date, and you see some people falling out of favor and then some of them come back and, well, maybe I don't want them to be my date, I want them to just be my friend. And you see that happening in politics, and I'm laughing and making light of it but that is how it works because as much as we vote on the substance, do I agree with this person, do they share my values? Most voters make a gut judgment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHNS: It's time to talk politics and debates, where all the candidates are fair game. Tonight CNN hosts the western Republican presidential debate in Los Vegas. You'll see how we all put it together, making way for the White House hopefuls. We'll have the debate for you live at 8:00 Eastern Time.

Now, for most of this debate cycle, Herman Cain has been the fringe guy, nipping at the heels of the front-runners. But now the shoe's on the other foot and he's the guy everybody is looking to kick around just a bit. My guests are CNN contributor Maria Cardona and Georgetown University Associate Dean Christopher Metzler.

Thanks to you both for coming in.

A simple question, and, Maria, I'll go to you first, what do you make of this guy, Herman Cain? Do you think he's for real? Do you think he can outlast the kind of barrage of questions he'll going to get from other Republicans on the podium tonight?

MARIA CARDONA, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I do think his appeal is for real. If it wasn't, he would not have surged too front-runner status. But if you're asking whether I think he's in it to win it and has always been in it to win it, I don't think that that's true.

My theory on Herman Cain is the following. That he was somebody that wanted to get in there, to shake up the debate, to change the conversation, to see if he could get some traction for his book, frankly, which we all know he just published. And I think that this surge has somewhat taken him as a surprise as much as it's taken all of us for a surprise because what we're seeing is, he doesn't really have a fund raising infrastructure, he does not have the money that neither Romney nor Perry do. He does not have any organization in any of the early voting states. And I think that now he's just kind of, you know, making it up as he goes along to try to stay up with the surge that he was not expecting.

JOHNS: Now the truth is, Christopher Metzler, if you look very closely, specifically at the fund raising numbers, the guys to worry about here are Perry and Romney. Just what do you think Romney has to do and what do you think Perry has to do and who is going to be on the attack, if anyone?

CHRISTOPHER METZLER, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY ASSOCIATE DEAN: Well, a couple of things. I think for -- in particular for Perry, I've got three simple letters. A, b, c for tonight. First, pay attention. Second, be excited about being there. And, third, give us some charm. Give us some of that Texas charm that you've not been able to give us.

As to Romney, I think what has to happen tonight is, just kind of stay the course. Don't do anything dramatic. Not that he can. Or don't say anything that's kind of out of the box.

I think who's going to be on the attack tonight is going to be primarily Michele Bachmann. Michele Bachmann has got to be on the attack tonight. If she's not on the attack, keep in mind, her -- Cain is taking her conservative base. That's really what a lot of this surge is about. So she is going to be on the attack. She's got to come out swinging, with velvet gloves, of course.

JOHNS: Now, Maria, I have to ask you though, when you look at the poll numbers, the guy who seems to be in trouble is Rick Perry. Wouldn't you imagine that he is a guy who really has to be on the attack tonight?

CARDONA: Yes. Yes. I completely agree with that, Joe. I think that Rick Perry has got to do a lot more than pay attention and show us some charm. He has got to be aggressive because he's not just third place right now, he's quite a distant third place in back of Romney and in back of Cain.

He has got to really make a difference. He has the most to lose tonight, as well as the most to gain. The perception that he has left in voter's minds in the last debates that he has been in is not a good one and will not be easy to overcome. So, yes, he's got to be charming, yes he's got to pretend that he wants to be there, but he also has to give voters a reason to give him back either the front- runner status or at least neck in neck with the front-runners right now. If he doesn't do that, then I think this thing is going to be quick -- over very quickly for Rick Perry.

JOHNS: Chris Metzler, the guy --

METZLER: Yes, but it's a two --

JOHNS: Go ahead.

METZLER: Yes, it's a two-prong attack. He's got to do the abc's tonight. But keep in mind, he has, you know, just released kind of -- he's got to use his ads to be extremely aggressive in those particular ads. That's what he's got to do. Being that he's got the money in the bank, it has to be a combination of the ad strategy and it also has to be him actually looking like he wants to be in the debate.

Keep in mind, the impression of him has been largely driven by the fact that people looked at him in the debate and said, uh, maybe not so much. He's one of the -- he reminds me of one of my students who shows up to class and it's like, present. You know, you can't vote present here, Perry. You've got to do more than that. And I think that's the opportunity. A two-prong attack, both being present and engaged and he's got to also hit hard with the ads. And I think he's doing that.

JOHNS: That's for sure. And we'll be watching. Still got many months before it all gets down to the wire here, but still exciting.

CARDONA: Just the beginning, that's for sure.

JOHNS: You bet.

METZLER: Just the beginning of (INAUDIBLE).

JOHNS: Maria Cardona, Chris Metzler, that's "Fair Game." Appreciate it. CARDONA: Thank you, Joe.

METZLER: Thanks.

JOHNS: The inconsistent timeline and the bombshell her mom dropped about the day her daughter went missing. If you're a parent or just following this story, stick around, the search for baby Lisa, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHNS: Now in today's "Crime & Consequence," we're learning more from the police and the have found a body in the Maryland woods. They think it's a boy who went missing more than two weeks ago. A search dog team found the body and investigators believe it is 11-year-old William McQuain. McQuain's mom was found stabbed and beaten to death in her home last week. The news comes a week after 45-year-old Curtis Lopez was arrested in Charlotte, North Carolina. Lopez is accused of killing his wife, William's mom. Investigators have surveillance video from October 1st showing Lopez with the boy at a storage unit.

We want to dig a little deeper now into the disappearance two weeks ago of baby Lisa Irwin in Kansas City. By now most of you probably have seen the shocking admission by her mom, Deborah Bradley.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you drinking that night?

DEBORAH BRADLEY, BABY'S MOTHER: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much?

BRADLEY: Enough to be drunk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you were drunk?

BRADLEY: Uh-huh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of people are going to say, Deborah, you were drunk that night. Is there any chance you did anything that hurt your daughter that you're just not telling us?

BRADLEY: No, no, no. And if I thought there was a chance, I'd say it. No. No. I don't think that alcohol changes a person enough to do something like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: The 10-month-old (ph) baby Lisa vanished in the middle of her night from the home, the same night her mom was seen here on surveillance video at the grocery store buying baby products and some boxed wine. But the big question is, what kind of impact will these new details have on the investigation. Right now local and federal agents are searching the area around baby Lisa's home. Let's go straight to Kansas City, Missouri, where Jim Spellman is standing by.

And, Jim, are the investigators planning to go back and have another conversation at least with the mom?

JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They would love to, Joe, but it's been over a week since the family has agreed to speak with any of the FBI or the local police here in this case. They would definitely like to do that. The new attorney that came in, Joe Tacopina, yesterday. He's a high profile attorney. Represented Joran van der Sloot and a number of other of these big kind of cases. He's basically said, look, they've said what they're going to say.

But then, on the other hand, saying they want to do everything to try to find baby Lisa. So there's definitely a lot of friction between the police and the family. The police would also love to talk to the two half brothers of baby Lisa, six and eight years old, that were in the home at the time of the disappearance. They also have not allowed them to be re-interviewed after an initial interview. They would love to speak with her because this new information that Deborah Bradley was drunk means those two children and their perceptions might be even more important in the investigation, Joe.

JOHNS: Now the chronology seems to be an important factor here, specifically what time she put the baby to bed. As I understand it, she's changed that story a bit. Can you give me some sense of why that's important in the investigation?

SPELLMAN: Sure. Initially two weeks ago when baby Lisa went missing, she said that she last saw baby Lisa around 10:30 at night. Checked on her when she was in her bed. Now she tells NBC News it was about 6:40 in the evening. And, Joe, that is a huge difference for investigators. At 6:40, the sun is up. People are coming home from work. The neighborhood is hopping with people getting dinner, kids doing their homework, people still out and about. By 10:30, it's dark. It's a much quieter scene here in the neighborhood.

And so it raises a lot of questions in that almost four-hour gap of, did people who initially were thinking 10:30, what did I see after 10:30? Now they have to think back two weeks now to where -- what was I seeing at 6:40. What cars were unusual. What unusual people were in the neighborhood. Really changes the completion for the public who may be trying to help and, of course, for investigators trying to find baby Lisa.

JOHNS: So are they done with the searches? What's the status of that?

SPELLMAN: We don't believe they're searching right at this moment. I spoke with the FBI this morning. They said they may be doing searches later today. All of the searches we've seen in the last few days, including on Sunday when the National Guard was mobilized, they were re-searching areas they've already gone over, trying to get fresh sets of eyes. They brought in this specially trailed military police unit to go over a woods a few blocks from here on Sunday and we saw yesterday dogs out even in the neighbor's home. We're not sure exactly what they were doing there. They didn't take any evidence away. But the dogs that maybe are going to be used to search wooded areas.

So searches do continue, but not based on new leads, Joe.

JOHNS: Thanks so much for that, my colleague, Jim Spellman, in Kansas City.

They're called the expendables. Children being lured into the deadly world of drug smuggling. And it's happening right along the U.S.- Mexico border. Parents, you don't want to miss this. Chilling details coming up next.

But here's a look at the stories you're watching on cnn.com.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHNS: The violent drug war raging in Mexico and along the border gets plenty of attention, but we want to focus on one chilling aspect that we haven't heard that much about, cartels, including the notorious Zetas, luring children as young as 11 to work in their smuggling operations.

The arrests just days ago of key members of the cartel have not slowed the recruitment efforts. Mexican drug gangs call these kids the expendables.

Rafael Romo is on the story for us now and he joins me.

So what these kids do has to be dangerous work. Where do they come from?

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN SENIOR LATIN AMERICAN AFFAIRS EDITOR: Well, the cartels are taking advantage of a situation of poverty, isolation. A lot of these kids would simply do anything for $50. And that's how much they are paying them to have a car cross the border, to run some drugs from one end of town to the other.

And the main point here -- and this is something that former U.S. drug czar Barry McCaffrey says -- is that the influence of the Mexican cartels can be felt here in the United States. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GENERAL BARRY MCCAFFREY (RET.), U.S. ARMY: The dominant criminal enterprise in the United States, more than 260 cities -- was just in Portland, Oregon, talking to their police department -- is elements of Mexican cartels. And they are moving hundreds of metric tons of cocaine, heroin, methamphetamines, ecstasy, high-THC-content marijuana across that border.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMO: Now, Joe, the Texas director of the department -- the Department of Public Safety, I should say, also spoke about this saying basically, listen to this, this is very sad. He said the Mexican cartel valued Texas teenagers for their ability to serve as expendable labor in many different roles and they have unlimited resources to recruit our children.

JOHNS: It's really a chilling story when you think about it. And it seems like there's a calculation here. Number one, they are not going to raise as much suspicion and number two, if they are caught, they are probably not going to be punished as severely.

ROMO: It's been happening in Mexico for years. They know that these kids will not spend too much time in jail. They are just going to be sent to a correction facility for a couple of years.

And now it's happening in the United States. But the point that officials are trying to make is, listen, we have a serious problem across the border, and we have to do something about it. As a matter of fact, there was a hearing in Congress last week, last Friday, and Representative Michael McCaul from Texas said that this is a situation that the United States has -- really has to pay attention to.

JOHNS: The other thing that comes to mind too...

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNS: Oh, we have a sound bite?

ROMO: We have a sound bite.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R), TEXAS: ... characteristics of terrorism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMO: And he said, again, violence in Mexico is spreading in ways that increasingly show characteristics of terrorism.

JOHNS: Yes. Back in the crack wars here in the United States, it was the same thing. They used very young kids and they would sort of fly under the radar. If they were caught, everybody felt sorry for them. It's a very tough situation for authorities and just a fascinating story.

ROMO: Just to give you an example, Joe, there was a 12-year-old boy who was caught a couple weeks ago at the border driving a pickup truck with 800 pounds of marijuana. JOHNS: Wow.

(CROSSTALK)

ROMO: So that paints the picture that officials are facing at the border.

JOHNS: Rafael Romo, thanks so much, really fascinating story.

Other stories we're following, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is in Libya to meet with top leaders of the Transitional Council. She's the first top U.S. official to visit Libya since Moammar Gadhafi was driven from power. Clinton will announce millions in new aid to help find and destroy weapons that disappeared after the fall of Gadhafi's government. The U.S. is particularly concerned that shoulder-fired missiles could find their way to terrorists on the black market.

Herman Cain is on a roll, but with popularity comes a lot more attention on some of his controversial comments. We will get into that from Las Vegas next.

But, first, our political junkie question. The Kennedy/Nixon debates in 1960 were the first televised presidential debates. Which presidential election was the second time candidates squared off on TV? The answer might surprise you.

Stay with us. It's just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHNS: Before the break, we were talking about the historic Kennedy- Nixon debates in 1960. They were first televised and the first presidential televised presidential debates. But which presidential election sought the next televised debate? It was the 1976 election with Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford. That was 16 years after John F. Kennedy and Richard Nixon faced off in the first ones.

CNN in-depth this week and we're taking a closer look at Herman Cain. His popularity is on an upswing with more good news in the polls. But comments he's made on the campaign trail can be described as unpresidential, at worst, pretty questionable, at best. Here are just a couple, a message to Occupy Wall Street protesters and an explanation of his stance against appointing a Muslim to his Cabinet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HERMAN CAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Would I be comfortable with the Muslim in my administration, not that I wouldn't appoint one. That's the exact transcript. And I would not be comfortable because you have peaceful Muslims and then you have militant Muslims, those that are trying to kill us.

And so when I say I wouldn't be comfortable, I was thinking about the ones that are trying to kill us.

If you are envious of somebody that happens to be rich that you call a fat cat, go and get rich, instead of expecting them to walk outside of their office and write you a check. That's not the way America works. Work for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: That's not to mention the fact that he's sort of all over the place on talking about an electrified fence on the border.

Joining me now from Las Vegas, the site of tonight's presidential debate, our CNN political analysts Roland Martin and CNN political contributor Ari Fleischer.

And thanks to you both for coming in.

Ari, I will start with you.

You know, the rap on this man, Herman Cain, at least one of the things people say about him is that he sometimes says things in public that, for example, people on the right and some white Americans who are very conservative believe, but would feel uncomfortable saying in public.

He sort of gives voice to certain sentiments. Do you agree with that and how well do you think that plays once you actually get into the primaries?

ARI FLEISCHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, people really are responding nicely to how blunt he is and how direct he is. He doesn't sound like he comes from inside the Beltway. And that's a huge advantage, particularly in a Republican primary.

The trick though is to still be presidential while being an outsider and he's made a couple of bad mistakes along the way. But everybody running for president makes mistakes along the way. The question is do you make fewer as you go along and do you learn from them? Barack Obama famously said that people cling to their religion and guns out of frustration and that was a big setback to him.

So the challenge for Cain is to step it up to the presidential level if he's going to be taken seriously. He has a good shot in the Republican primary of being taken seriously.

(CROSSTALK)

ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Joe, here's the fundamental problem we always see. The voters say we want people to be honest and straightforward and speak truth.

But the reality is, they don't really want that much truth. OK, it happens all the time. If you are a blunt-speaking, clear, concise, to-the-point candidate, oh, yes, you're a great quote machine, but then people begin to say, well, are you too radical?

Remember, when Howard Dean ran for the Democratic nomination, you remember, same thing, people saying, oh, my God he's to honest. He talks about gays, God, and guns in the South. He was speaking honestly, putting it out there. People said, oh, no, bad thing to say. Herman Cain has to understand little nuance in the dance when you're running because the public says one thing, but actually believes another.

JOHNS: Here's what I want to get at. The thing that a lot of people find fascinating is because he's an African-American candidate and he deals with certain issues involving for example Muslims and he also says African-Americans are brainwashed, he may take it back and distinguish it, but it's something that, for example, it would be more difficult and more controversial if a white candidate were to say it.

Do you agree with that?

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNS: Go ahead.

MARTIN: Look, I understand that. I mean, we see that all the time. Sure you can say that he has license to say certain things that frankly other people can't.

The same thing during the 2008 campaign. Then-Senator Hillary Clinton, she could openly talk about what it means to be a woman president, but then Senator Barack Obama couldn't be asked forthright in saying what it means to be a black president. I get all of that.

What I'm trying to say is, of course Herman Cain is doing that, but what he has to understand and is going to have to transition to is, you're now moving yourself out of being the shock jock if you will of presidential politics. Now people are taking you seriously. You cannot make a comment on the campaign trail saying I'm going to build a fence that will shock illegal immigrants who are trying to cross the border and then say it was a joke, because now the problem...

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: When are you serious and when are you joking?

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNS: You have got to respond to that, Ari. I mean, come on, is it possible for a candidate like Cain to ride those sometimes shocking statements all the way to the nomination?

FLEISCHER: No, it's not. That's the point I think we're both making.

MARTIN: Right. Right.

FLEISCHER: The art of running for a presidency, especially in an outsider year like this, where people are fed up with what Washington does and what Washington says, is to have credibility as an outsider who can make things better and fix it, but you have got to raise your game and you have got to act presidential as you do it.

The statement about electrifying a fence is a mistake. It's the type of thing nobody should say in public office or a candidacy for office. But, Joe, it has nothing to do with race. If race was a shield that is allowing Herman Cain to say these things, why is he in trouble for saying these things? Thank goodness he is being judged by the same criteria everybody running for public office should be judged by.

Again, the key here is will he learn and will he grow and will he do better? He has every chance to do so. These are not disqualifying statements he's making. These are mistakes.

JOHNS: Now, the question though you say he's really been called to task, but has he really? Has he been held accountable for many of these statements or are we now at a point where things that would be considered gaffes by other candidates are considered just Herman Cain?

FLEISCHER: Joe, the reason that you're saying that is not because of the color of his skin. It's because he was in third or fourth place in the polls. Now that he has vaulted up to the top of the polls, people are paying more scrutiny to him.

It has got nothing to do with race. It has got to do with numbers. He's number one or number two.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: Joe, this is real serious. Let's just cut to the chase if you want really honest talk. If Herman Cain was not number one or number two, we would not be talking about him right now.

FLEISCHER: Right.

MARTIN: If he was not number one or number two, he wouldn't be on "PIERS MORGAN," he wouldn't be on all of the Sunday shows. If you're another candidate, you don't punch down. If you're a Mitt Romney, you don't talk to Herman Cain during the debate because frankly he was polling in the bottom.

Now that he's in the upper rung and now that he's competing, expect in this debate to see the other candidates be very critical of every comment he has made because he no longer -- you are no longer punching down. Now you're punching up to bring him back down.

JOHNS: It's really an amazing phenomenon when you think about it. We have got the first African-American president. He's a Democrat. We have also got a Republican who appears at least in the polls to be a very viable contender for the Republican nomination. Who would have thought that this stage in the game we'd actually see something like this? Thanks to both of you.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: Well, think about it. Michael Steele was chairman of the GOP. So it's not like we didn't see that kind of change in the Republican Party before.

JOHNS: Yes, absolutely. Appreciate it. Ari, Roland, really good to see the both of you. I will be talking to you again soon.

You can see the CNN Western Republican presidential debate live right here at 8:00 p.m. Eastern tonight. Our Anderson Cooper will be moderating the debate. So tune in and check it out.

They are planning to charge a fee for you to use your debit card and you may think they are just covering their costs. So why are the big banks showing a profit? Stick around. It's your money.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHNS: Are cell phones dangerous? And if so, can we trust the research? A new study raises questions about the standards the government uses to test cell phone radiation.

According to the Environmental Health Trust, the standard is based on a large adult man. So what about smaller people and children? This study says radiation penetrates a 10-year-old head 150 percent deeper than the government standard. A 5-year-old gets even more radiation. The Environmental Health Trust says we need more comprehensive testing.

(STOCK MARKET UPDATE)

JOHNS: Schools short on cash are making a buck selling the only thing they have, space, lockers, benches, cafeteria trays, you name it, all being shrink-wrapped in advertisements. That's next in "Street Level."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

JOHNS: Now let's take a "Street Level" view of kids and their schools in California's San Juan Unified School District.

If you walk through a San Juan public school, you would see this, ads. These ads have been here for years, but like an increasing number of other school systems around the country, the San Juan School District is looking for solutions to massive budget cuts and is now partnering with a firm to take ads in schools to the next level.

Trent Allen, who is with the San Juan Unified School District, joins us now.

And, Trent, why is it that the district made the decision on this? I mean, what was the reasoning behind it? Does it just come down to the almighty dollar?

TRENT ALLEN, SENIOR DIRECTOR OF COMMUNITY RELATIONS, SAN JUAN UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT: Well, we have long had partnerships in our schools, sponsorships with local organizations.

What we're really looking to do is we have lost like most other public school districts in California more than 20 percent of our unrestricted funds in the last few years. We're looking for ways to make up some of those cuts that we have had to make.

In our district, we made $36 million worth of reductions last year alone. And we're hoping to raise $1 million to $2 million in sponsorships. So certainly it's not an answer to the problem, but it's something that could help.

JOHNS: So how much money do you make on this? And a lot of people say, how far is too far?

ALLEN: Well, we're hoping when this program is fully up and running, we will be making about $1 million to $2 million a year for our schools.

But one of the great things about the partnership we have formed is that we have complete control over the opportunities we accept and we don't accept, even though we have somebody else out soliciting those opportunities for us.

So, in our district, we have already decided we won't be doing locker wraps, we won't be doing the lunch trays. Any signage on campuses will be in common areas, hallways or gymnasiums, where we have already typically had signage.

But we're really looking to do is take these sponsorships to the next level, really tap into national marketing dollars and pocketbooks to come in with some innovative sponsorships and partnerships that further social causes, rather than just trying to sell a product.

JOHNS: So, I assume you got to be a little bit picky on this. You wouldn't allowed a sketchy company, for example, to put up an ad in the school?

ALLEN: Absolutely. And that's been one of the things that has been very important to us, is that we maintain complete local control over all of these opportunities.

So if for whatever reason, whether we don't like the message, where somebody wants to place something, how somebody wants to do something in their sponsorship proposal, we absolutely have the right and the ability to say no thank you.

JOHNS: Trent Allen from San Juan, California, thanks so much for that. Nice talking to you.

ALLEN: Nice talking to you, Joe.

JOHNS: Time now for a CNN political update, our Jim Acosta in Las Vegas for tonight's Republican presidential debate.

Jim, I understand we have a new sense of what voters are thinking about the contenders, at least right now.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Joe.

There's a brand-new CNN/ORC poll out that sort of shows Republicans are sort of becoming Vegas oddsmakers looking at this GOP field. They are right now putting their money on Mitt Romney, you could say. If you take a look at these numbers, it's pretty extraordinary -- 51 percent of the Republicans that we talked to in this survey say they believe that Mitt Romney will capture the GOP nomination. Contrast that with Herman Cain, just 18 percent. Even though Romney and Cain are neck and neck in the polls, far fewer Republicans believe that the conservative businessman, the former Godfather's Pizza CEO will be the GOP nominee.

And then look at Rick Perry's numbers. Just 14 percent of Republicans believe that he will be the nominee. Contrast that with a survey that we just took last month, Joe -- 41 percent of Republicans in that survey thought Rick Perry would go on to clinch the GOP nomination, now just 14 percent.

So it's been a reversal of fortunes, you could say, for Rick Perry and for Herman Cain. That means, in terms of tonight's debate here at the Venetian Hotel on the Strip in Las Vegas that we will see perhaps Rick Perry take the offensive.

He's really running out of debates at this point, even though there are a lot scheduled, Joe. He really has to sort of grab ahold of some momentum here and get his campaign headed back in the right direction. As for Herman Cain, this is an opportunity for him to show to the rest of the Republicans out there that he could, in fact, be the nominee. He made those controversial remarks over the weekend on immigration, talking about putting an electric fence on the U.S.-Mexico border.

A lot of Republicans may be saying, hmm, maybe Herman Cain can't be the nominee because of those outspoken remarks. So, perhaps we will see Mr. Cain dial down some of that white-hot rhetoric tonight, Joe.

JOHNS: Jim Acosta, thanks so much for that.

And now it's time to go on over to Brooke Baldwin.

Good afternoon, my lady.