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U.S. Economic Growth Improves; European Union Agrees to Debt Deal; Romney At or Tied for Top of Latest Polls; State Department Spends Big on Obama's Books; The Madoffs' Attempted Suicide; Disgraced Financier Attempted Suicide; Global Stock Markets Rally; Sharks: From Predator to Prey; World Series Rainout; "Slow" Progress at NBA Talk

Aired October 27, 2011 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: We begin this hour with your money --

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR, "AMERICAN MORNING": Exactly. Work hard.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIPS: Their new book and some very encouraging news. I'm sure they'll be talking about that, as well. Investors around the world now breathing a bit easier. New numbers on this country's economy came out just minutes ago.

Christine Romans has those and then Zain Verjee is looking at reaction to a deal just made on your debt crisis, and Alison Kosik is at the New York Stock Exchange where your 401(k) could enjoy a big day.

Christine, let's go ahead and start with you. Before we focus on the big debt deal, if you don't mind, let's talk about what this means. Tell us about our economy and the good news that we're getting.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: All right, first of all, GDP. How the economy grew in the most recent quarter. The third quarter. 2.5 percent, Kyra. That is twice as fast as it was in the second quarter. It shows you there was a pickup in economic activity in the third quarter. And that is the best in a year.

So, Kyra, that tells us that the economy is doing a little better. It needs to be better than 2.5 percent, but that is better than it has done in about a year. And so that is good news about where the economy is going right now.

PHILLIPS: All right. Now the overnight deal on the European debt crisis. Let's talk about how this has impacted what we are already seeing.

ROMANS: OK, it puts to rest all of this concern about how Europe is going to get its political forces together to fix its problems. And it is critical that the EU avoid a recession because this is -- this zone is our biggest trading partner, quite frankly. We export $400 billion worth of stuff to the euro zone every year. So you do not want Europe to be in a recession because of a banking crisis. That would be really critical to that 2.5 percent number I just told you. You want to keep that number up. We have over $1 trillion in direct investments into the European Union, $2.27 trillion in loans and other EU commitments.

So the global nature of our relationship with Europe and Europe getting its act together is incredibly important.

The nuts and bolts of this deal, what it really means, it solves a few problems. It sort of stabilizes the Greek debt problem. It beefs up the European rescue fund, which was incredibly important and it also provides or makes the banks, quite frankly, hold more capital and keep more cash on hand to protect themselves from future shocks. So far everyone is pretty happy with what they've heard from there last night.

PHILLIPS: Heck yes, in about 25, 26 minutes from now, we want to see those U.S. stocks rally. We want to see big jumps in our 401(k). We'll talk again about that. We're all smiling about that possible news.

As we just mentioned that overnight debt deal Christine has been talking about has given us great news.

Zain Verjee is actually monitoring the reaction from around the world. And I guess good news for everybody at this point.

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Good news. It was crunch time, Kyra, and they delivered. Let's take a look at what the headlines are saying. This is what "The Independent" here in the UK says, Kyra. "Unlike politicians," it says, "markets are seeing sense. It says Europe remains an important trading area, but the lesson of the past few days is that while the world economy needs Europe, it can cope with its difficulties assuming European leaders get their act together."

The "International Herald Tribune" says this. "Europe agrees to basics of plan to resolve euro crisis. Europe didn't face any hard deadline to forge a deal, but its leaders wanted to agree on a definitive plan to address the systemic aspects of the euro crisis rather than issue vague proclamations as they have so often in the past."

Many looking at this deal, Kyra, say that they really need to see more of the details. They ask, will it be enough and will what we've been seeing in the Asian markets and the Europe markets and the U.S. markets a little bit later today, will that just be a knee-jerk reaction and will there be long-term consumer confidence? And that jury is still out -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: OK, Zain, thanks so much.

And back here in the United States, so much for a peaceful protest in New York. Police say that this "Occupy" march near city hall turned into a bit of a scuffle when protesters crashed through a barricade. Several people were arrested.

Protesters say that their march was a show of solidarity for an Oakland protester who was critically injured in clashes with police.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened? What happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He got hit. He's been shot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: And that's the protest we're talking about in Oakland.

Scott Olsen is in the arms of fellow demonstrators being rushed for medical help. They say his skull was fractured by a police projectile either a tear gas canister or a bean bag. Olsen is a military vet who served two tours in Iraq. Police say they're investigating what happened.

Mitt Romney is looking good in four new polls.

Our deputy political director Paul Steinhauser has those numbers for us.

So where is Romney -- or where is -- where is Romney headed?

PAUL STEINHAUSER, CNN DEPUTY POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, Kyra, I tell you, we talk about the national polls a lot, but remember there is no national primary. It's all about the states, the battle for the nomination is a fight for the states and those delegates. And we've got polls in the first four states to vote on the primary and caucus calendar.

Let's start with Florida. Take a look at these numbers. Brand- new CNN, "TIME" and ORC. And Mitt Romney, the former Massachusetts governor, has a 12-point lead according to our poll over Herman Cain, the former Godfather's Pizza CEO.

In Florida, they're having their primary on January 31st. They're becoming a power player.

You break down those numbers in Florida, Kyra, and what do you find? Romney is doing very well with senior citizens and those about to hit retirement age, and of course that's very -- a lot of influential voters down there in Florida.

Let's go to New Hampshire. The first primary state in the nation. They're probably going to vote on January 10th and I guess it's homefield advantage for Romney there. Why? He used to be the governor of neighboring Massachusetts. Most of southern New Hampshire sees that Boston TV market. Romney has a home in New Hampshire. He spends a lot of time there.

Look at that overwhelming lead over Cain and the rest of the field in New Hampshire -- Kyra. PHILLIPS: So is that where he's feeling the most pressure?

STEINHAUSER: Yes, two states in our news polls indicate he is feeling a lot of pressure from Herman Cain. Let's start with Iowa. Iowa, of course, the first state to vote in the battle for the -- caucuses and primaries. Their caucus is going to be on January 3rd.

And look at this. Romney 24 percent of the vote -- of Republicans we polled in Iowa, Cain at 21 percent. That three-point margin for Romney well within the poll sampling error. Basically a dead heat. So when you break down those Iowa numbers, what's happening? It seems like Romney, Kyra, is getting mostly the mainstream, the establishment vote in Iowa whereas Cain and the rest of those candidates like Paul, Gingrich, Perry and the rest, they're dividing up those so-called social conservatives or born-again Christian voters as well as Tea Party activists.

Go to South Carolina. This is the first southern state to vote. They're going to have their primary on January 21st. A similar story. Romney and Cain basically all tied up there in South Carolina. And again, when you break the numbers down, a similar story. Romney getting more of the establishment and moderate vote. Cain and the rest of the gang there dividing up the social, conservative, religious and Tea Party votes -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. We'll keep watching those polls with you, Paul. Thanks.

STEINHAUSER: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: We'll have your next political update in an hour. And a reminder, for all the latest political news, you can always go to our Web site, 24/7, CNNPolitics.com.

Well, the State Department is defending its decision to buy more than $70,000 worth of President Obama's books.

Jill Dougherty here to talk to us about this.

So, Jill, a spokesperson says that this is nothing new.

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Right. And what they're saying here at the State Department is, for many years, they've had this program where the State Department embassies have a budget to buy books. They buy books for the libraries that they have around the world and they also give them away as gifts.

Now the controversy here is that $70,000, roughly, that you're talking about for books by President Obama. And let me give you a couple of examples. In Egypt, remember where the president gave that speech to the Muslim world? They spent, according to government records, roughly $40,000 in 2009 for "Dreams from My Father." And then also in Indonesia, a place where the president grew up, they spent $9,000 on "The Audacity of Hope."

So there are these issues right now and several critics are saying, well, wait, this is a waste of taxpayer's money. It's a bad precedent and they didn't do it for previous presidents.

We talked with or raised it at the briefing with Victoria Newland, the spokeswoman, and she said this is basically standard operating procedure. That it's meant to give information about the United States to people around the world, and that it's not directed by Washington, it's actually the budget of that individual embassy.

And just one last thing, Kyra, on this. A senior State Department official said, well, actually, if you look at the libraries, there are books by other people. It's bipartisan. We have books by former Presidents Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and the other -- the Senior Bush, and Powell, Secretary Rice, et cetera. So it really is bipartisan.

I think the issue here is, was it when they were in office and it apparently is not that case. But for the president -- for President Obama, it was.

PHILLIPS: State Department, Jill, thanks.

And up next, when their world started crumbling around them, Bernard Madoff and his wife tried to commit suicide. New revelations this morning from the wife of the man behind the biggest Ponzi scheme in history.

And later a rare crime wave in an Amish community. Five men arrested for allegedly dragging people out of their homes and cutting off their sacred hair. A live report at the bottom of the hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Checking stories "Cross Country" now.

In Los Angeles, Dr. Conrad Murray cried during testimony in his involuntary manslaughter trial on Wednesday. Character witnesses told the court how Dr. Murray cared and treated for an elderly patient who were unable to pay. Murray is accused of causing Michael Jackson's death.

Denver's first snowfall of the season arrived yesterday. It was blamed for stressing trees and power lines, though. As many as 90,000 customers lost power during that snowstorm.

And 554 days after the Deepwater Horizon explosion petroleum giant BP is back in the Gulf of Mexico. The company announced yesterday that it earned its first permit to drill in the Gulf since last year's oil spill disaster. One of the worst in American history.

Distraught and depressed, Ruth Madoff, the wife of disgraced financier Bernie Madoff, said she and her husband made a suicide pact.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you take?

RUTH MADOFF, WIFE OF BERNARD MADOFF: I think Ambien. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many?

MADOFF: I don't even remember. I had -- I took what we had. Maybe more.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you leave notes?

MADOFF: No. It was very impulsive and I'm glad we woke up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Ruth Madoff tells "60 Minutes" the couple swallowed a combination of drugs on Christmas Eve in 2008. She says they were so guilt ridden over the burden of Madoff's $64 billion Ponzi scheme that they attempted to take both their lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADOFF: I don't know whose idea it was, but we decided to kill ourselves because it was -- it was so horrendous. What was happening. We had terrible phone calls, hate mail. Just beyond anything. And I said, I can't -- I just can't go on any more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Andrew Kirtzman is author of "Betrayal: The Life and Lies of Bernie Madoff." He saw the interview clips, as well, joins us live from New York.

So, I'm curious, Andrew, do these revelations surprise you at all?

ANDREW KIRTZMAN, AUTHOR, "BETRAYAL: THE LIFE AND LIES OF BERNIE MADOFF": Well, for some reason America's most revile family has chosen this moment to try to rehabilitate their image. You've seen a whole bunch of books come out within the span of one week. All these network television interviews. I just don't know whether Americans in a 9 percent unemployment economy are going to be terribly sympathetic.

PHILLIPS: You wrote the book "Betrayal: The Life and Lies of Bernie Madoff," you got pretty good insight into this couple and the way they live.

Do you think that they really wanted to die?

KIRTZMAN: Well, they had reason to want to, you know, end this nightmare. I mean, Bernie Madoff has destroyed the Madoff family and regardless of how much knowledge Ruth Madoff actually had and no one, to this day, has found direct evidence that she was in on this, including the feds -- you know, they were, they were high school sweethearts. I mean, they were together for, you know, 50 years. They were each other's best friends.

I mean, these are -- this is a couple that was bound together. And, you know, one could imagine this thing. It's hard to kind of figure out why Ruth Madoff would go on national television and announce that she tried to kill herself if, in fact, that wasn't true.

I mean, you know, it said that Andy, one of her sons, has a book coming out that he wants to promote and asked her to help him promote it. You know, she's doing that for him. It signals some kind of reproach between her and her son. But, once again, it's hard to imagine why she would be lying.

Now, on the other hand, Bernie Madoff is giving interviews at the same time saying he never considered suicide. So, one of them isn't telling the truth.

PHILLIPS: Yes. And he actually said to Barbara Walters that therapy saved his life and he's happy in jail and believes that that's where he's going to die.

KIRTZMAN: Yes.

PHILLIPS: Andrew Kirtzman, you had the book and now we're seeing the interview. It's interesting that it's coming out now and, of course, all the other various books coming forward. The timing is interesting.

KIRTZMAN: The timing is interesting.

PHILLIPS: Yes, thanks for joining me this morning.

KIRTZMAN: Sure.

PHILLIPS: And coming up at noon, the author of the book, "The Wizard of Lies" talks with our Suzanne Malveaux. Author and "New York Times" reporter Diana Enriquez interviewed Bernard Madoff a year after he began serving his prison sentence. Suzanne will talk with her.

Well, good news with the global economy today. Europe finally has a debt deal and a new report shows economic growth in the U.S. is actually picking up. Stock markets around the world are rallying and we'll go live to the New York Stock Exchange for a live update.

And a piece of Saddam Hussein's statue that made history when it fell goes on the auction block today. Our Zain Verjee tells us where the proceeds are going to go.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Let's get to your "Showbiz Headlines."

Samuel L. Jackson has just made the Guinness Book of World Records as the highest grossing actors ever. Over the years, his movies have made almost $7.5 billion.

And Ellen DeGeneres and her wife Portia de Rossi are investing in a new vegan restaurant in L.A. The couple gave up meat and animal products three years ago. The chef who catered their wedding is actually putting together the restaurant's menu.

Well, after 14 years, Beavis and Butthead are back. New episodes start airing today on MTV. The network has changed a lot, though. So, instead of making fun of music videos they will critique reality shows, now, the boys will moistly critique reality shows. We're going to inside scoop from creator Mike Judge. He is joining me live next hour.

The bronze piece of the Saddam Hussein statue taken during the fall of Baghdad goes on the auction block today.

Zain Verjee is here to tell us more about the interest in this piece, shall we say? But the proceeds, let's make the point, Zain, going to a very good cause.

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, just ask me what piece of the statue we're talking about here, Kyra. We're talking about a large piece of the statue's buttocks. So, I got to the bottom of this, Kyra, and I have the back story here for you, as well. You remember the statue that fell of Saddam Hussein, 2003, in Firdos Square.

Well, this former British soldier basically got in there and he asked the U.S. Marines that had cordoned it off and said, can I get a little piece for myself. Well, the statue was face down. So, Saddam's rear end was facing up. So, this guy took a sledge hammer and took it for himself and, basically, as a souvenir.

Then he had to go to Kuwait. So, as they were driving over in Kuwait, he was with the media and a lot of the security at the border confiscated all this Saddam memorabilia, but he told the Kuwaitis, listen, we need this for protection for our vehicle in case we come across bombs or we're shot at and bullets and it's for protection.

So, they said, OK. So, he carried Saddam's butt over into Kuwait and then essentially what happened was he came back to London and then he was charged excess baggage for that piece of the statue. It was something like, I don't know, $500 or something like that. But he says it was worth it because it's being auctioned in Darby and all proceeds to make the point are going to go to ex-U.S. and U.K. servicemen -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: So, in the end, it goes to a good cause, shall we say.

Zain Verjee, just so many different ways --

VERJEE: I could continue, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Yes, I know. That's why I'm going to move on. Love you, Zain, thank you.

VERJEE: Love you, too.

Alison Kosik is at New York Stock Exchange where it's shaping up to be a pretty busy day. Europe finally has a debt deal and stocks are set to rally and, Alison, we want to see a nice, big, happy day when we look at our 401(k) portfolios.

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: And your wish is my command, at least on this day, Kyra. Yes. Dow futures are pointing up more than 200 points. If that happens, which it is expected to happen, that will lift the Dow above the 12,000 level for the first time since August 1st -- same with the NASDAQ and S&P, meaning, we are seeing nice gains in the future's market right now and both of those indices up 2 percent.

Global markets even rallying, too. Take a look, in Tokyo, Hong Kong. Those stocks there closing 2 percent to 3 percent higher. Markets in Frankfurt, Paris and London -- they are up 2 percent to as much as 5 percent. Now, these major indices take off immediately after the debt deal was reached overnight.

Now, of course, we've got some analysts that are still kind of skeptical about this deal because, as usual, when you see big deals like this, those pesky little details really still need to be worked out. But for now, a deal this big is a real confidence boost for, you know, for markets worldwide, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, we also have a new GDP report showing the economy is growing. How is that factoring into things today?

KOSIK: Exactly. Sure, this is what's adding to the optimism we're seeing in the premarket right now.

The economy we found out grew at a 2.5 percent annual pace through the months of July through September. It's the strongest this year because you look at how growth was in the first half of the year. The economy grew at less than 1 percent pace.

So, then when you look deeper into this report, you see that there are a lot of good things in there. Consumer spending picked up. Businesses spent more.

The good thing is that this number, this GDP number, is not a recession number. But putting it in perspective, of course, the growth rate, it's still far from healthy. Something considered normal would be around 5 percent. We're around 2.5 percent -- when we were at 0.5 percent in the first five months of this year.

So, yes, it's good, but it's not strong enough to se the job growth that we want. But it is strong enough to put the talk of another recession to rest, at least for now -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Alison, thanks. We've got about six minutes to go.

Well, new polls show that Rick Perry is falling further behind and he might skip out on some of the debates. We're going to find out if that's a good idea.

Also, you need to hear what Donald Trump told our Piers Morgan about Perry. That's all ahead.

Plus, an Amish community under attack. The suspects? Members of their own faith. Their alleged crimes? Dragging people out of their homes and chopping off their sacred hair.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Checking top stories now:

Stocks are set to jump with Wall Street just about to open. A new European deal which reduces Greece's debt burden is pushing world markets higher. The opening bell rings in just about a minute. We're going to watch it live.

The death toll from Sunday's earthquake in eastern Turkey has risen now to 534. Rescuers are still hoping to find survivors like this one in the rubble.

And "Occupy Wall Street" protesters say an Iraqi war veteran had a skull fractured by a police projectile. Scott Olsen was injured in a demonstration in Oakland. Police are now investigating.

All right, Alison Kosik at New York Stock Exchange. The opening bell just about ready to ring in 30 seconds and we are expecting a big rally.

KOSIK: We are. The futures right now pointing to a 200-point leap for the Dow. Yes, it could be safe enough to actually crack open that 401(k) and take a look at how your portfolio is doing. This is after European leaders finally came to a deal on how to deal with Europe's debt issue.

So, investors have been wanting this for month. They finally got it -- a solid outline of how a plan could help get Europe out of their debt crisis. Now, there have been some jitters all week that if the agreement fell short of what Wall Street was pushing for, that we could see a selloff, but clearly not the case. That investors seemed happy what European leaders delivered at this point, even though some analysts still are a bit skeptical, they want to see more details on how to carry it out. But at least this deal is in place.

And we have positive opening for the Dow right now, rising 79 points. Kyra?

PHILLIPS: This is pretty good, but we know, it's early on. Even though we're projecting a great rally today, right? We're off to a good start, but anything could happen in the next hour or two.

KOSIK: Of course. But helping the numbers is a GDP figure that we got today showing that economic growth, at least the first reading of it for the third quarter is at 2.5 percent, a 2.5 percent pace. And that's pretty good considering where we've been all year. So, that will really help keep markets in the green today. As we keep rising, the Dow is up about 100 points right now, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: OK, well, actually, that's pretty good for this amount of time. We're just about a minute in.

Alison, thanks. We'll keep an eye on the markets with you throughout the morning. We'll keep checking in. All right. Well, for the Amish people, their hair is sacred. They believe that the Bible forbids them from even cutting it. So, when the story broke that people were not on burglarizing Amish families but dragging their victims out of their homes and chopping off their hair, it outraged this Ohio community.

CNN's Chris Welch has been investigating this story. And, Chris, the allegations actually include an Amish bishop, right?

CHRIS WELCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Kyra, this story, I mean, to begin with, very, very bizarre. Very strange story.

And what makes this particular casein more bizarre is the fact that this was not one isolated incident. This was a handful of similar incidents across this rural eastern Ohio community where these gangs and several members, you could call them rogue Amish members attacking, basically walking up to various Amish members, men and wives homes, and family members homes, knocking on their door, pulling the men out by the beard, holding them down on the ground and cutting it off.

And as you mentioned, the beard was sacred. This is not just some -- a matter of some guy losing his beard. For them, this is a big deal. This is not a laughing matter.

The other thing that makes this case particularly serious is that these just weren't kids doing this. Police believe, as you alluded to, that this is the work of one man. They say it is one man. I believe we have video of him that we've got, taken from a raid at this man's compound of homes. They believe this man is orchestrating something much larger. They believe it could be something much more sinister.

Here's what the sheriff of Jefferson County, Ohio, told me just the other day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF FRED ABDALLA, JEFFERSON COUNTY, OHIO: He's like a cult leader. What's been going on there is not true Amish. True Amish don't act like that. True Amish don't go out attacking people throughout the countryside. They just don't do it. True Amish don't do that.

And when I tell you nothing moves out there unless he says it moves, that is the case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WELCH: I want to be sure to point out, I actually went to Sam Mullet Sr.'s compound -- sorry to interrupt there, Kyra. He would not go on camera. He wouldn't do an interview with me, but he denied the allegations that he's created a cult, that he's running a cult, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, no, and that's what I wanted to ask you. I knew you talked to him and I was curious what he told you and, if anything, if you were able to get any insight into why, allegedly, they're saying that he's the one that did this? Why he is. And, also, how is the Amish community protecting themselves now?

WELCH: Well, right. I'll address the first matter here. When I got to his door and knocked on his door and ask him if he was willing to talk, he was very at ease. You know, he had this confidence about him like he did nothing wrong. And he did, like I said, he denied allegations that he's starting a cult.

But I also asked him particularly if he could respond to these accusations that he's behind the beard cuttings. His only response to me -- he wouldn't say yes or no, but his only response was beard cutting is a crime, is it?

As to whether this community now is scared, what they're doing, the answer is, yes, they're scared. I talked to a few families who say we are now locking our doors. For this community, for this Amish community to say they put locks on their doors is, frankly, a pretty big deal. It may not sound like much to you and me, but they're used to sleeping with their doors open at night.

The other thing they are doing now is keeping mace on hand. Obviously, not something we are accustomed to placing hand-in-hand with the Amish community. Cans of mace around the house.

PHILLIPS: It's so not what they stand for. The fact that their own people allegedly committing these crimes, it's really hard to understand

You're investigating it; we'll continue to follow the story. That's for sure. Chris, thanks so much.

And you can get much more on this if you just go to CNN Belief Blog at www.CNN.com/belief. And Chris will stay on the story.

New polls show Rick Perry is falling farther behind, and now might skip out of some of the debates. We're going to find out if that is a good idea.

And sharks are the stuff of a lot of people's nightmares, but we kill way more of them than they do of us. We'll take a look at the impact of the global shark slaughter.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: All right. Our gut is telling us it is going to be a good day. Right now, U.S. stocks rallying and Dow Industrials up 236 points. Thank goodness to a debt deal overseas. We're seeing the impact here. It could be a great day for our 401(k)s. Let's keep the positive attitude going.

Alison Kosik joining us from the New York Stock Exchange coming up in just a little bit.

All right. There's several Republican debates scheduled between now and the end of the year. Rick Perry may actually be skipping some of them. Conan O'Brien thinks he might know why.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONAN O'BRIEN, HOST, "CONAN": When Rick Perry said it was a mistake for him to participate in the presidential debates. Yes, Perry said I'm not one of those word talkers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Well, I'll tell you what, I have two word talkers to talk some words this morning. Roland Martin and Will Cain. So, Roland, why doesn't Perry want to debate?

ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: First of all, there's way too many doggone debates. It's like a reality show now. It's almost like one every week. And look, he hasn't done well in them. He's frankly sucked. And the last thing you want to do is keep screwing up every single week in one of these debates.

And so, you look at his poll numbers and he needs to be in front of voters focusing in Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina. So, it makes sense, especially when you're terrible.

PHILLIPS: Will, we've shown how Perry is falling farther behind Romney and Herman Cain in some new CNN polls in key states. So, is it a good idea for him to skip on these debates?

WILL CAIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: It's a genius idea. Can you name me one positive thing that's happened for Rick Perry since he started debating? Before he was debated, he was polling, like, 25 percent with each debate. With every debate, he goes down little more, little more. Why go back? There's no positive outcome for sitting on that stage and showing that you can't debate.

We should say, it's not just about his debate inabilities. It's also about some of his positions, which come out in the debates and hopefully those positions would come out anyways.

PHILLIPS: Roland, does that make him look scared? Does it make him look like he can't handle it? I mean, why would you skip a debate?

MARTIN: Again, if that's not your strong suit, then you don't go to a weakness. Rick Perry's strong suit is retail politics. And so, you don't play into a weakness. So, you want the downplay that. You want to be in front of voters.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: Are debates about intelligence?

MARTIN: God no!

PHILLIPS: Okay.

MARTIN: No! PHILLIPS: Will? Are they about intelligence?

CAIN:I have a question for my fellow conservatives. If this guy wins the nomination, will he not debate Barack Obama? How's that going to look?

PHILLIPS: Roland?

MARTIN: Well, now remember, typically about three presidential debate. We've already had, like, 48 Republican debates already and about 1,000 scheduled between now and January. So, it's like a debate is announced every other day.

PHILLIPS: People are watching --

CAIN: Hey, Kyra, let me answer your question.

PHILLIPS: Well, yes, let me ask you first of all, Will, do you think debates are about intelligence?

CAIN: Yes, that's what I wanted to answer. You know, you don't have to be -- are debates about intelligence? I'm sorry, I was going to say president, you don't have to be a genius to be president, but there's also a floor on this thing. You can't be a moron.

I'm not talking about Rick Perry. I'm just saying we don't have to elect Albert Einstein, but, you know, we do need to make sure you can compete.

Debates, yes, are about intelligence and your ability to translate your thoughts into words.

PHILLIPS: Roland, you say that there's too many debates, but you know what? People are tuning in. We get great ratings, people are talking about them.

MARTIN: Look, OK, Kyra, seriously? They tune into "The Real Housewives of Atlanta," "Jersey Shore" and "Basketball Wives." Seriously, seriously! Debates are now reality shows. They are reality shows.

PHILLIPS: All right, let's go to the next topic, shall we? Perry is back pedaling, shall we say, on the birther thing now. He has said that he has no doubt that President Obama was born in the U.S.; he was just having some fun with his buddy, Donald Trump.

So, here's what Trump told our Piers Morgan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: Do you think politically for Rick Perry?

DONALD TRUMP, CEO, TRUMP ORGANIZATION: I think it's a positive for him.

MORGAN: Is it a sensible thing for him to do? TRUMP: Well, I think it's good for him in the Republican primary. I don't necessarily know if it's good in the general election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Will Cain, you think Perry has damaged his campaign? I know, Roland, you're rolling your eyes. But hold on, Will, has he damaged his campaign with this?

CAIN: You have something to say, Roland? Really?

Let me say this, I have the moral high ground over Roland in virtually every respect.

MARTIN: No, you don't! You're a Longhorn! No you don't!

CAIN: Listen, hear me out, Roland. I'm supposed to be with the party that's about freedom, individual responsibility, individuality, free markets, capitalism. With that in mind, I cannot tell you how disappointed I am that every single candidate seems to see the need to pay homage to this baffoon. Donald Trump does not need to be attached to this important and morally high ideology that we ahere. Put this man on the sidelines, please.

PHILLIPS: Roland?

MARTIN: Okay, first of all, thank God I'm not tied to any party because I can actually think for myself. I hate ideology.

But here's the deal. Why do we keep booking Donald Trump on CNN? Seriously. This guy --we don't book people who deny the Holocaust, who think the world is actually flat. Who actually think slavery was okay. This guy is an idiot. We should run a crawl every time Donald Trump is on CNN that says "this is for entertainment purposes only. Nothing this man says makes sense."

PHILLIPS: OK, but the GOP candidates are meeting with him. It's a fact. They're going and meeting with him.

MARTIN: They're idiots. But they also know -- speaking of, again, reality show, that's what Donald Trump is. They know the cameras are going to be there. It is a joke that we even ask this guy political questions. Again, I would much prefer to hear what Snookie has to say about politics than Donald Trump. Book Donald Trump on CNN and talk about "Celebrity Apprentice," but please, let's stop talking to this guy about politics because he's an idiot.

PHILLIPS: And if you want to catch the whole entire interview with Donald Trump tonight at 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN, he sits down for a full hour with our Piers Morgan. Roland can't wait! Will, thanks for joining us.

MARTIN: Yeah, can't wait.

PHILLIPS: Coming up -- (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAJ LARSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Both of these. All ten of these.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: I know you guys can't wait for this. Kaj Larsen gets up close and personal with the king of the ocean. Sharks may be the perfect predator, but they're many people's prey. That is messing up a very delicate balance.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, shark attacks make good headlines, but your odds of getting bitten are super slim. Instead these predators long feared by man now have something to fear from us. Kaj Larsen reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAJ LARSEN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Shark populations are crashing around the world. Millions die by finning to feed the growing demand for shark fin soup in Asia. Roughly a third of all shark and ray species face some threat of extinction. Without them the marine food web could start to unravel.

Marine biologist Luke Tipple is on a mission to protect sharks. We met up in the Bahamas.

LUKE TIPPLE, MARINE BIOLOGIST: Actually, the marina that we're in right now is one of the first shark-free marinas in the Bahamas.

LARSEN: Sharks are an apex predator which means, they are at the very top of the marine food chain. They grow slowly, mature late and produce few young making them vulnerable to over fishing.

TIPPLE: We're supposed to have a certain number of sharks to be able to control all of these animals which are below them. So what we do is we take out that apex and we allow a lot of other fish to breed underneath them. And they basically annihilates everything below them and that leads to (INAUDIBLE) collapse, which means we don't have healthy ocean systems and won't be able to pull food or product from there anymore.

LARSEN: The Bahamas ban commercial shark fishing and that's helped to lure more divers and tourist dollars to the islands.

(on camera): Come back with both of these. All ten of these.

(voice-over): Luke and I jump in to see some sharks up close.

(on camera): Wow. They were right there.

(voice-over): But outside of sanctuaries like this one, sharks remain at risk.

(END VIDEOTAPE) PHILLIPS: Kaj Larsen is joining us now live from L.A. I see what this is all about; Navy SEAL, any chance to go diving, anything that gets that adrenaline rush going. I totally have you pegged -- Kaj.

LARSEN: Yes, you got my number dialed, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: What else is being done to protect sharks?

LARSEN: Well, as you saw in the piece, there's lots of sanctuaries around the world that are -- are done to protect sharks from overfishing.

There's sanctuaries popping up in the Bahamas and Indonesia. There's also legislation that's going down that prevents the sale and bans the sale of shark fins.

But the issue is that the demand is just so high. The demand for shark fin soup, the by-catch from illicit and licit (ph) commercial fisheries is so high. And that's what's really put these top predators in jeopardy.

PHILLIPS: So what was it like to dive with them, and what did you learn?

LARSEN: Well, Kyra you know, I'm a surfer. A lifelong surfer. I grew up in Santa Cruz which is the heart of the Red Triangle. And so I spent my whole life in the ocean trying to avoid sharks. And now all of a sudden I find myself in the position of going into the ocean specifically to look for sharks.

So it was really, really unnerving to get in there and be around these predators. But what I learned is that there are actually so few species of sharks that are dangerous to man, despite the jaws effect and all the fear that's been conjured up about sharks, sharks actually have more to fear from us than we do have to fear from them.

PHILLIPS: Kaj Larsen, thanks so much.

And you can catch Kaj's full report, "HUNTING DOWN SHARKS" is part of this weekend CNN Presents Sunday night 8:00 Eastern.

Well, there is a new fad surrounding quarterback Tim Tebow. People go down their knees while those next to him do something completely different. We'll explain in sports in seven minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Stories making news later today.

11:45 Eastern Time in Los Angeles, testimony resumes in the Conrad Murray manslaughter trial.

5:00 p.m. from New York, the Education and Election 2012 Presidential Candidate Forum gets underway. And at 7:00 Eastern in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, the city's mayor reflects on the deadly tornado that struck his community just six months ago today.

We're following lots of other developments for you in the next hour of the CNN NEWSROOM. Let's check in first with our Christine Romans.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning. We're taking a look at the European debt deal and why that is so incredibly important for growth in the United States and stability here as well. I'll break down the deal for you and tell you some other good news that's happening in the American economy right now. That's at the top of the hour.

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I'm Jill Dougherty at the State Department -- sorry, we're having a little interference. Just back from a trip to Afghanistan and Pakistan, Hillary Clinton is going to be fielding questions up on Capitol Hill about the strategy in that region. And I'll have that at the top of the hour.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Jim Acosta in Washington at the CNN political desk, where we are digging into some poll numbers which are pretty good news for Mitt Romney this morning. We'll explain in just a few minutes.

PHILLIPS: All right guys. Thanks so much.

Plus, two of America's premier juveniles return tonight after 14 years.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe that is where the screw made its point of entry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Entry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you need to be here?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: You got it. Beavis and Butthead back with their scholarly intellectual commentary. How do you think these guys will play in 2011? Well, guess what, we'll ask the genius who made them. Or did they make him? Either way Mike Judge is joining me live next hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Jeff Fischel, wash out at the World Series.

JEFF FISCHEL, ANCHOR, HLN SPORTS: Yes, you know they got rained out last night for Game six. Fortunately the weather looks a whole lot better tonight. They'll get things going. Major League Baseball actually called it four and a half-hours before the first pitch. They said there's no way this is happening game six was done. First World Series rainout since 2008.

Cards manager Tony La Russia says he used the night off to see the Brad Pitt baseball movie "Money Ball." Pitching tonight Colby Lewis for the Rangers and Jaime Garcia for the Cardinals. The Rangers lead the series 3-2. With one more win the Rangers get their first World Series title.

From World Series rainout to the lockout. NBA players and owners resumed talks this afternoon the two sides met for 15 hours yesterday. NBA.com reports progress is slow but there's progress. Talks are centering on luxury tax and salary cap issues.

The revenue split which caused last week's talks to break down has been pushed to the side for now but that is the elephant in the room and at some point they're going to have to work that out.

37-year-old former star wide receiver Terrell Owens does have an offer from a team even though no one showed up to see his private workout Tuesday. Chicago wants him. No, not the Bears, the Chicago Rush of the Arena League. They're offering $400 a week. T.O.'s agent responded that is absurd. Terrell will only be playing in the NFL. Owens is trying to come back from a major knee surgery.

One of the biggest debates in sports right now should Tim Tebow be the Bronco's starting quarterback. Tebow is well known for this, kneeling on in prayer this was after Sunday's win. And now it's going viral through this new Web site -- Tebowing.com. People are sending in photos to go with the verb to Tebow meaning to get down on their knee and start praying even if everybody else around you is doing something completely different.

PHILLIPS: I love it.

FISCHEL: He's huge.

PHILLIPS: I love it.

FISCHEL: I'll tell you what, you know he's struggling and he's just kind of getting that and starting all that he is -- no without a doubt one of the most popular players in the NFL.

PHILLIPS: And it seems like he has a beautiful soul.

FISCHEL: It is, yes.

PHILLIPS: Jeff Fischel, thanks.

FISCHEL: Ok.