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Markets Soar On E.U. Greek Deal; U.S. economy Sees GDP Spike; Libya To Prosecute Gadhafi Killer; John Edwards Case Going To Trial; Seaworld Sued For Enslaving Whales; SeaWorld's Slaves; Oil Pipeline Splits America; Battle of Experts; Perry May Skip GOP Debates; Killing with Impunity; Good Eatin' from the Grave

Aired October 27, 2011 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: CNN NEWSROOM continues right now with Randi Kaye, who's in L.A.

RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Suzanne, thank you. Hello, everyone.

Troubles in Greece have dragged down markets around the world for months now. So, it's only right that a long-awaited Euro break- through should set off a rally.

And there you have it, blue chips are soaring on Wall Street as they did in Europe and Asia when bleary eyed E.U. leaders announced a deal to contain the Greek crisis. They persuaded banks and other holders of Greek bonds to write off half of what they're owed. In business lingo, that's a 50 percent haircut, and it saves Greece 100 billion Euros. They also agreed to boost the E.U. bailout fund to a trillion Euros, roughly $1.4 trillion, details still pretty vague. And they're requiring European banks to keep more cash reserves as a cushion against losses.

So, why should Americans care? Well, I mentioned stocks, but that is just the start. My colleague, Alison Kosik, has a whole lot more from the New York Stock Exchange. Hi, Alison. First, catch us up on the markets, both here and abroad.

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: OK. Randi, first of all, stocks are at their best levels of the session, the Dow up 293 points. And if you look at this month as a whole, it's shaping up to be among the best ever. The Dow was up more than 1,200 points so far for the year and the strongest gains today actually came from overseas, from Europe.

In Paris, we saw the Paris index that rose 6 percent. In Frankfurt, we saw a rise of 5 percent. Now, France and Germany, they've been financing much of the bailouts in Europe and you're seeing this rally because what this deal winds up doing, it's sharing the burden, kind of sharing the pain. They're not going to be the only ones contributing to Greece's rescue.

And here in the U.S., we're seeing banking sector which has really been hammered over the past several months. The banking sector's leading the rally for U.S. stocks. You're seeing Bank of America, Morgan Stanley, J.P. Morgan, those shares up anywhere from 7 to 15 percent, because what this deal is essentially doing, Randi, it's instilling confidence and stability not only in the banks but in the marketplace as a whole. This debt deal, what it does is it minimizes the danger of default and it lessens the severity of a possible recession in Europe. And this deal also forces Europe and its banks to set more cash aside in case of another shock. So, you're seeing more confidence boosted over there as well -- Randi.

KAYE: So Alison, is this agreement really the end of the Euro nightmare or is this just buying us some time here?

KOSIK: You know what? If you ask anybody, they're going to be little bit skeptical at this point, because they really want to see the little minutia, the little details. You know, this plan that European leaders came up with overnight is right now is a broad outline. And now they have to deal with the fine print and actually implement it an move forward.

Also, there are questions, will it be enough? The bailout fund was boosted do $1 trillion, but the fact remains that Italy has a $2.5 trillion in outstanding debt. So, the question is will that bailout fund be enough to mop up Italy's debt if it gets into more trouble? But at this point, you're seeing -- you're seeing this plan that everybody has been waiting for for 21 months finally, at least, being signed on the dotted line -- Randi?

KAYE: And besides the stocks, I mean the U.S. and European economies are pretty intertwined.

KOSIK: Oh, yes. You've heard that old saying where, you know, if one country has a cold, another country starts to sneeze. And we are all interconnected.

And when you think of us and Europe, we do an awful lot of trading with Europe. The Brookings Institute says $400 billion of U.S. exports last year went there, so if Europe let's say went into a recession because it couldn't get a handle on its debt, it would mean that they would buy less stuff from the U.S. And that would wind up hurting us in manufacturing, in jobs here in the U.S. It would also hurt our businesses and our banks that invest heavily in the E.U. We invest almost $3 trillion in loans there.

So, yes, everybody breathing a sigh of relief that this plan is finally in place -- Randi.

KAYE: Well, nobody's sneezing, that's good news. Alison, thank you very much, appreciate that.

And here is some more encouraging economic news we want to tell you about. U.S. economic growth nearly doubled in the past three months with the gross domestic product of 2.5 percent. The GDP, the broadest measure of the country's economic health, has gone up considerably since the start of the year. And stronger spending by consumers is behind the third quarter spike, but we still have a ways to go before we achieve stability. Economists say it typically takes three percent growth or more to spur businesses to start hiring again. A show of solidarity from coast to coast as the Occupy movement intensifies again. More protests in New York today after a march turned into clashes with police last night. At least 10 people were arrested in New York yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened? What happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He got shot!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's your name?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: The New York march meant to show support for this Iraq War vet, Scott Olson, the former Marine's skull was fractured after he was allegedly shot in the head with a police projectile at a protest in Oakland, California.

The United Nations Security Council voted unanimously today to end NATO military operations in Libya, effective this Sunday. And as the conflict ends, Libya's transitional leaders say they will prosecute whoever killed Moammar Gadhafi. The Transitional Council has been under intense pressure to investigate the circumstances surrounding the former leader's death. Initially, leaders said he was killed in the crossfire after being pulled from a drainage pipe, but video detailing Gadhafi's final moments shows he was alive when captured.

It looks like John Edwards' campaign finance case will go to trial. Our affiliate, News 14 Carolinas, reports a judge has denied a move to dismiss charges against the former presidential candidate, and his trial is set for January. Edwards is accused of using unreported campaign money to cover up his affair with former campaign videographer, Rielle Hunter.

Bernie Madoff's wife says she and her husband endured threats so unbearable that they tried to commit suicide. In an upcoming CBS "60 Minutes" interview, she says they took a combination of pills in 2008 and went to sleep expecting not to wake up again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUTH MADOFF, BERNIE MADOFF'S WIFE: I don't know whose idea it was, but we decided to kill ourselves, because it was so horrendous what was happening. We had terrible phone calls, hate mail, just beyond anything. And I said I can't -- I just can't go on anymore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: She said she doesn't remember how many pills they took but she said she's happy they woke up. Two weeks earlier, Bernie Madoff confessed to running a $50 billion Ponzi scheme, the largest in U.S. history. Seaworld gets sued, not by a customer or a trainer, nope. Instead, by five orca whales. But do animals have the same rights as people? Coming up, the answer may not be as simple as you think.

But first, a shout out to a great grandmother who's pretty feisty and fearless at 94 years young. A fire department in Vero Beach, Florida plans to recognize Rose Swiszowski next week. She just happened to be walking home to her retirement community last week when she spotted a fire, started by a cigarette.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROSE SWISZOWSKI, VERO BEACH, FLORIDA RESIDENT: God put me here. God made me come down at that time and find it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: She grabbed flour and water to try to douse it until firefighters got there. And for taking that quick action, Rose, you are today's "Rock Star."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Welcome back, everyone. Yesterday on this show, we told you about the unusual new lawsuit against Seaworld with allegations of cruelty and modern day slavery. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, or PETA, is suing the theme park on behalf of five orcas. They say the killer whales are forced into captivity and kept in tanks not much larger than they are, a set-up, they argue, that is the same as slavery. They are denied freedom and everything else that is natural and important to them, while kept in small concrete tanks and reduced to performing stupid tricks, PETA says. The 13th Amendment prohibits slavery and these orcas are, by definition, slaves.

Now, that last part is the crux of their case. PETA claims these whales enjoy the same constitutional protections against slavery that people do.

Yesterday on the show, we spoke to a former head trainer at Seaworld who called the lawsuit crazy and ridiculous. So today, we wanted to bring in the other side. Joining me now is Jeff Curge and (INAUDIBLE) counsel for PETA and marine mammal specialist, general counsel for PETA, Richard O. Berry. Thank you both for being here.

Obviously, this is an important issue and very close to both of your hearts. Jeff, let me start with you. I mean, the pivotal argument here is that these killer whales have the same rights, the same constitutional rights as Americans, but when you look at the 13th amendment, it doesn't specify humans. I mean, do you think it's -- it was supposed to be implicit? I mean, do you think that this covers animals and orcas?

JEFF KERR, GENERAL COUNSEL, PETA: Sure. The lawsuit which people can see at our Web site, PETA.org, is based on the plain language of the 13th Amendment which prohibits the condition of slavery, without reference to a class of victims and without -- as you said, without reference to the use of the word, person. By any definition, as you talked about earlier, these orcas are enslaved. They've been denied everything natural to them. And the beauty of our constitution is that it's a living document, and we think the time is right for this lawsuit and it's applicable from the plain language of the text.

KAYE: And Richard, I mean obviously, you have followed these animals for quite some time. I mean, they're saying -- PETA's saying that the animals should be -- the orcas should be moved to a more natural environment. What would that environment be and how different would it be from the tanks they are in now?

RICHARD O'BARRY, MARINE MAMMAL SPECIALIST: Well, the tanks they are in now are very abusive. They can be successfully transferred to a natural sea pen where they can experience the natural rhythms of the sea and the tides and the currents and be retired and receive birth control. There's no reason for a dolphin to be born in captivity. And the orca is the largest dolphin. If you go to the zoo and just look at the snake exhibit, the snake is an animal with a very small brain, a cold-blooded creature, but it's given more consideration than the orcas at Seaworld. The snake has some tree limbs to climb on, it's got grass, it's got some dirt, it's got rocks to get under and hide from. But if the go to Shamu stadium with a facemask on and put your head under water, it's just a blank concrete box.

KAYE: Well yesterday, we mentioned that we had a former Seaworld trainer on and he had some harsh words about the lawsuit, some harsh words for PETA. So, let's listen to that, I want to get your reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THAD LACINAK, FOUNDER, PRECISION BEHAVIOR: It really does beg the question of why does PETA do something like this? And it shows how ridiculous they are. I mean what's next? Are we going to say that animals have -- they have the same rights as people, are we going to, if a killer whale in the wild kills a seal, are we going to bring them up on murder charges next? I mean, this is just craziness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: Jeff, what's your reaction to that?

KERR: That's exactly what you'd expect to hear, but the lawsuit is based again on the plain language of the 13th Amendment. Slavery is slavery regardless of the species of the slave.

KAYE: I want to read you a portion of the statement from Seaworld saying that Seaworld is among the world's most respected zoological institutions, there is no higher priority than the welfare of the animals entrusted to our care. No facility sets higher standards in husbandry, veterinary care and enrichment than Seaworld. Having these animals in a zoological setting serves and an invaluable educational purpose and makes direct contributions to species conservation. I mean, you've worked with dolphins, both in captivity and in the wild.

I mean, is there an educational purpose here? Does that outweigh what's happening to them?

O'BARRY: No. That's the big lie, that somehow these stupid dolphin tricks translate into conservation. And you only have to look at Japan to see that. Smoking gun. There are 50 dolphinariums in Japan. Japan is the size of California. Fifty of them. One hundred twenty-seven million people live there. They've all seen the show. They've all been educated. Yet, we have the largest slaughter of dolphins going on right under their nose, and they don't do anything about it. And that's one of the reasons I left that industry is I got tired of telling that lie, like Thad is doing. Thad is diagonal P.R. hack. He makes a lot of money from these captive dolphins.

KAYE: Let me -- before I run out of time I want to ask you about where things stand globally because one of the reasons this caught our attention is because of what may be happening to animals globally. So where does it stand in terms of increase or decrease in captivity for them?

O'BARRY: Well, here in the United States, the capture stopped about 20 years ago because we disrupted the captures. And they don't want CNN there when the captures are taking place. And we had CNN there when the captures took place 20 years ago. So a lot of these SeaWorld trainers have moved offshore, capturing dolphins, trying to capture them in the Solomon Islands, sending them from there to casinos in Dubai, casinos in Singapore.

I just came from there. The Resorts World ordered 25 --

KAYE: So they're beyond (ph), in other words?

O'BARRY: Yes, and these are all ex-SeaWorld trainers. And so why doesn't SeaWorld police their own industry an stop all of these captures. If it's truly educational, how come they're not educated. They themselves aren't educated on this issue.

KAYE: All right, Richard, Jeff, appreciate it. And, please do keep us up to date on what's happening with the lawsuit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will. Thank you.

KAYE: All right. Thank you.

A fight between the environment and the economy. How the proposed keystone pipeline is digging up problems from Canada to Texas. But first, a look at the top videos on cnn.com.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: It is 1,700 miles long, on paper anyway, and three feet wide. It would bisect the nation, which it's already split, between economic hopes and environmental fears. And as big and controversial as it is, the proposed Keystone XL oil pipeline is "Under Covered." Here's the plan. Connect the oil sands of Alberta, Canada, with the refineries of southeast Texas. In between, of course, are millions of acres of farms and forest, rivers and streams, which no one wants to see covered in oil. But there also are millions of Americans who need jobs. And TransCanada, the project's owner, says Keystone XL will put 20,000 Americans to work.

You may have seen pictures of the anti-pipeline protests. This had one got Daryl Hannah arrested outside the White House. If President Obama missed them, he certainly knows that there is a backlash. Here he is yesterday in Denver trying to talk student loans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) our future.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

OBAMA: Thank you, guys. We're looking at it right now. All right. No decision has been made. And I know your deep concern about it. So we will address it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: Since the pipeline would cross U.S. borders, addressing it is up to Hillary Clinton. The State Department gets the final say after a series of public hearings and an environmental impact study. That pipeline, opponents say, was fixed. That's because TransCanada pick the firm and a TransCanada lobbyist is a former campaign aide to Clinton. See how this works?

I'm joined now by Steve Hargreaves, a senior writer for cnnmoney.com.

And, Steve, this story certainly isn't "Under Covered" by you. So tell us what the pipeline would mean for U.S. oil imports if it's built?

STEVE HARGREAVES, CNNMONEY.COM: Well, it would mean a lot of new oil. The pipeline would essentially double oil imports coming from Canada's oil sands into the U.S. Right now we consume about a million barrels a day. The pipeline would add about 700,000 to that. So it's a lot of oil.

KAYE: And in terms of environmental concerns, I mean these concerns go beyond the potential leaks in a pipeline, right? We're talking about something called tar sands here. Can you shed some light on that?

HARGREAVES: Yes, correct. The oil comes from -- in Alberta they have oil sands or tar sands and it's a heavier form of oil and it's basically kind of like a tar mixed with the sand. And in order to extract it, you either have to mine it like a big open pit mine, or you have to use traditional oil drilling techniques, but with the addition of heat.

So what it all means is that they're a little bit dirtier than a traditional form of oil. Estimates are that they produce anywhere from 5 to 30 percent more greenhouse gases on a sort of -- a well-to-wheel basis than traditional oil does. So that's what has a lot of people concerned. They don't like the additional pollution that would be associated with expanding production from these oil sands.

KAYE: And I'm sure that in your reporting you've probably talked with many analysts about this. I mean do they think that this pipeline will get U.S. approval?

HARGREAVES: Well, yes, ultimately, you know, it's an election year and it will create a lot of jobs and it will be a lot of money and Americans are concerned about energy, they're concern about energy independence, they're concerned about high gasoline prices. So to vote -- to limit the amount of oil coming into this country, especially coming into it from a place like Canada, it would be a very difficult thing for Obama to do while facing what's going to be a tough re- election. So most analysts, yes, they do expect it will be built.

KAYE: And when will we have that final decision, do you think?

HARGREAVES: Well, it's a long process. The State Department just finished up some public hearings on it. They have a few more hearings to do. I think a decision is expected by the end of the year.

KAYE: All right, Steve Hargreaves, appreciate it and appreciate your reporting on that -- what we think is an "Under Covered" issue. Thank you.

Conrad Murray brought to tears in court, but can Michael Jackson's doctor wipe away the past and clear his name in the jury's eyes? Today the defense's star witness takes the stand.

But first, on this day in 1997, people around the world woke up to a tanking stock market. The downturn started in Asia and quickly spread across the globe. Trading was halted in the U.S. And when it was all over, the Dow dropped 554 points. At the time, it was the biggest point loss ever. And that is this shame in history.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Prosecutors in the Michael Jackson death trial showed off their star witness last week. Now the defense for Dr. Conrad Murray gets to show theirs off today. That witness is Dr. Paul White, who's set to take the stand sometime this afternoon. Murray's attorneys hope that he'll help them prove their theory that Jackson self-administered the powerful anesthetic Propofol believed to have killed him. But to do that, Dr. White has to be more convincing on the stand than his former friend and colleague, Dr. Steven Schafer. Schafer, the prosecution's expert witness, testified last week that Jackson could not have self-administered Propofol and that Dr. Murray is directly responsible for the singer's death.

So with just a day, maybe two, left in the trial before it goes to the jury, it basically boils down to this -- two experts, two doctors, two former friends -- whose testimony will jurors believe? Joining me now for "Crime & Consequence," former Jackson defense attorney Thomas Mesereau.

Tom, nice to see you again.

Let's talk about this Dr. White coming on the stand today. This is critical, obviously, for the defense. What does he need to say?

THOMAS A. MESEREAU JR., DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, he's a very renowned expert which surprises me that the defense got someone with his credentials. I think from a defense point of view, they have decided, in my opinion, that they can't refute the fact that Dr. Murray was grossly negligent in many, many areas. What they're trying to refute is that his gross negligence caused the death or that you can prove it caused it beyond a reasonable doubt.

They're trying to show that Michael was addicted, that he was desperate, that he knew what he was doing, that he consulted other doctors, that he was not sharing information from one doctor to another, and that he was perfectly capable of causing his own death in that room that evening.

KAYE: And right now on the stand we've been hearing from, for a while today, Dr. Robert Waldman. He is a drug addiction specialist. So the point of that would be to show how desperate Michael Jackson might have been that he would have done this to himself without knowing it?

MESEREAU: Yes, the defense are throwing a lot of -- they're throwing a lot of mud at the wall, basically on Michael Jackson. They're trying to make it look professional and expert in nature, but really it's a -- it's mudslinging. They're trying to show that he was addicted to Demerol, that he was addicted to other drugs, that his life was consumed with prescription medications. They're trying to just defeat this idea that Dr. Murray's actions directly, in a proven way, caused his death.

KAYE: Would there still be negligence if the prosecution can prove that even if Michael Jackson took the fatal dose himself, it was Dr. Murray who brought it into the house and possibly left him in the room with that IV?

MESEREAU: I think there's been substantial evidence that shows that. That everything he did, bring Propofol into the home, not administering it properly, not having proper equipment, the way he reacted to the overdose, his lying to paramedics and police and hospital personnel, the prosecution is saying all of this, including no record keeping -- all of this caused Michael Jackson's death and that Dr. Murray is guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

KAYE: Yesterday in court the judge advised Dr. Murray that it was his decision and his decision only if he wanted to testify, if he wanted to take the stand. He hasn't made that decision yet. Maybe he's waiting to see how well Dr. White does for him on the stand. But what do you think will happen there? And if you were his lawyer, what would you advise him? MESEREAU: Well, I'm a little bit biased towards the prosecution in this case. I was Michael's lead criminal defense lawyer in his criminal trial in 2005. I'm very fond of Michael. Very fond of the family. I don't particularly like the idea of helping the defense in this case. However, I would give strong consideration to it if they think the case is sunk. I know a lot of criminal lawyers just by nature don't want to put their clients on the stand, subject them to cross examination. But in this case, if they think the case is really, truly lost and they have no chance, they might just consider it.

KAYE: All right. And rebuttal witnesses? You think we might see a couple of those before it goes to the jury?

MESEREAU: I think you might. I think the prosecution is very, very serious, very logical in the way they're conducting this case. And I think you may see one or two witnesses to refute what the defense has said.

KAYE: Well, I know you'll be watching today to see what Dr. White does and we will be there along with you.

Thank you, Tom. Nice to see you.

MESEREAU: Thank you.

KAYE: Mitt Romney is looking strong in the polls, but does he have the muscle to clench the nomination for president?

And Rick Perry driving the anti-Romney train. Is he on the right track, or will his move just help President Obama? It is all "Fair Game," and it is next.

But first, political junkies, let's test your knowledge.

Since Gerald Ford ran in 1976, who is the only GOP candidate to win the presidential nomination on his first attempt? The answer when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Before the break we asked you a question about GOP nominees. Specifically, who since Gerald Ford is the only GOP candidate to win the presidential nomination on his first attempt? The answer -- George W. Bush. While he hadn't run for the presidency before, he definitely had name recognition.

Rick Perry has had a series of uneven debate performances, and to listen to the candidate himself, the reason he fell from near the top of the polls was agreeing to participate in debates in the first place.

Let me read you what he said. "These debates are set up for nothing more than to tear down the candidates. If there was a mistake made, it was probably ever doing one when all they're interested in is stirring it up between the candidates." Rick Perry's top spokesman says that since there are too many presidential debates anyway, the governor may pass on some of them in the future.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

RAY SULLIVAN, PERRY CAMPAIGN SPOKESMAN: People are starting to think about heading to the polls. We're about 60 days away from votes being cast. The candidates need to spend time in Iowa doing those town halls, spending a lot more time with the voters who oftentimes have the best questions and press the candidates the hardest.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

KAYE: So is skipping debates a good strategy for Rick Perry? That's "Fair Game."

For my guest today, Republican strategist Karen Hanretty and CNN contributor and Democratic strategist, Maria Cardona.

Great to see you both.

Karen, let me start with you. Can Perry afford not to participate in these debates?

KAREN HANRETTY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: He may have no other choice, quite frankly. Look, he's the first to admit this is not his strong suit as a candidate. He's much better at retail politics, going out there shaking hands. And as your CNN poll shows, he's down to number five. He's running fifth in Iowa right now. He can spend his time at debates where he is never really going to catch a break and take a lot of heat, or he can basically park himself in Iowa, spend his time doing retail politicking.

KAYE: Yes. Maria, is this really about the calendar and about getting out there and shaking hands with voters? Or is this just really about performance?

MARIA CARDONA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: It's completely 100 percent about performance, Randi. I guarantee you that if Perry had done well in his performances up to date in the debates, he would be salivating to go to the next one and the next one after that. So it is absolutely all about performance.

But I agree with Karen in one respect, which is Perry does have enough money to get his message out in a form that is not a debate. He's got a lot of money to go up with scathing ads against Romney. He's got a lot of money for a ground game and infrastructure and all of these key early states.

But I think it is risky to not be there. And in fact, what I think he should be investing in is a great opposition researcher who can hand him the quotes and the dates where Mitt Romney has flip-flopped on every major issue that we are talking about in this campaign. That's where I think his major flaw has been. He's got a lot of material against Mitt Romney, major flip-flopper and he's just not using it.

KAYE: Yes. But Karen, you know, when it comes down to debating, I mean, it's not like this is the first time Rick Perry has debated. I mean, he's been doing this in Texas. So why didn't they maybe work on this with him a bit?

HANRETTY: Well, I think first of all, I don't think that he's ever faced an opponent in Texas like he has faced in Mitt Romney on the national stage. I think, you know, debating Kay Bailey Hutchison and some of these other lesser-known candidates in Texas where he was a well known commodity is much different than announcing himself to a national audience and, you know, with extraordinarily high expectations for that first debate.

He's now really lowering the expectations. There are seven more debates scheduled throughout November and December. You know, he's already committed to do an early November debate in Michigan. The question is, is it worth -- this campaign is going to have to make a really calculated decision here.

KAYE: Yes.

HANRETTY: Is he going to lose more by making -- by debating more, or does he lose more by the criticism he'll take in the media by not debating.

KAYE: And how he does it --

(CROSSTALK)

CARDONA: And Randi --

KAYE: Yes?

CARDONA: I was going to say, Randi, if you recall, he actually didn't debate during his gubernatorial races. He actually refused to debate Kay Bailey Hutchison. So he knows very, very well and his stuff knows that this is not his strong suit.

KAYE: All right. Thank you both, Maria Cardona, Karen Hanretty. I appreciate that. Thanks for joining us today for "Fair Game."

And coming up in "Globe Trekking," we'll take you to the place that was known as Siam until 1939. It is a little more than twice the size of Wyoming. Right now it is dealing with some catastrophic flooding. Where are we? The answer ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: One week after the death of Moammar Gadhafi, the NATO mission in Libya is ending. The U.N. Security Council just adopted a resolution withdrawing its mandate for military intervention. With the end of the conflict come new questions over who is to blame for massacres around Sirte and the Libyan transitional government's lack of response.

But before we go in-depth, I must warn you what you are about to see may be disturbing. There are some graphic images here. Here's Dan Rivers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN RIVERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As the dust settles on the Libyan conflict, there are increasing questions about the atrocities that appear to have been perpetrated by militia loyal to the transitional government.

These are just some of the bodies found around Moammar Gadhafi's convoy. Some were killed in a battle as the former dictator tried to flee, but some appear to have been executed as prisoners contrary to the Geneva conventions.

(on camera): Plenty of evidence around here of other bodies here, some of which Human Rights Watch claim were also executed. They say there are 95 bodies in this area and at least ten of them have been shot at point-blank range.

(voice-over): We witnessed this during the battle for Sirte. Piles of bodies with their hands bound behind their backs, shod through the head with no clear sense of who they were or who shot them.

The bodies lay here for days without any revolutionary forces attempting to bury them. But now Human Rights Watch investigator Peter Bouckaert says he's found clear evidence some of the victims were Gadhafi officials, and he's concerned they may have been executed by revolutionary forces.

This is the aftermath of a massacre at a Mahari Hotel in Sirte. 53 bodies with evidence on the walls that this hotel was occupied by revolutionary brigades before the people were killed.

PETER BOUCKAERT, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: We're very disappointed that the NTC still hasn't sent anybody down to Sirte to investigate, and their failure to investigate risks invoking the jurisdiction of the international criminal court. This is a war crime.

RIVERS: The transitional government has promised to bring those responsible to justice.

AHMED BANI, NTC MILITARY SPOKESMAN (through translator): I assure you that we will not turn a blind eye or forgive any crime that might have been committed during this conflict.

RIVERS: But the true scale of the killing in Sirte is only now becoming clear. Some 300 bodies have been found so far with no one from the transitional government attempting to gather evidence before the bodies are removed.

Dan Rivers, CNN, Tripoli. (END VIDEOTAPE)

KAYE: Incredibly difficult story to report. Our thanks to Dan Rivers.

Now to other stories that we are following in "Globe Trekking."

Before the break, we told you about our first stop known as Siam until 1939, twice the size of Wyoming. These days it is dealing with epic deadly flooding. Where are we? Thailand.

That's where floodwaters continue to slowly move towards the capital. Bangkok is being evacuated. The city is using the first day of a five-day holiday to get people out of harm's way. The Thai Prime Minister says most of the city was expected to be flooded by today, but luckily holding walls are keeping back the water. However, he says, that's only temporary. The massive flood caused by heavy monsoon rains has affected more than 9 million people and killed at least 373.

Now to Turkey where rescue teams continue to find survivors and bodies after Sunday's 7.2 quake. The death toll now 534. Thousands have been injured and many are now homeless spending nights in the freezing cold. Turkey's asking for tents and prefabricated housing. Britain is offering to provide emergency tents for more than 5,000 people. And you can help as well. For information, just go to CNN.com/Impact.

And now to China where one lady is getting a whole lot of attention. No, not for her looks, or high fashion, instead for her quick moves. Take a look here.

The video has gone viral on the Internet. Watch as this bake shop employee packs cakes into a bag at record speed. We did not speed this up. She almost looks robotic. She isn't called the crazy fast-hand cake lady for nothing. Oh, yes.

Mushroom patty, meatballs and butterscotch bars. They may sound like traditional dishes, but these are truly original. What the ghost whisperer is cooking up here on earth with recipes from beyond the grave.

Even if you're a non-believer, you will want to stick around for this.

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KAYE: Welcome back.

Every day on this show we call out someone who, quite frankly, has screwed up. Today, it is the mother and uncle of a boy from Minnesota.

The boy we're talking about is named Antoine Willis. Well, here's the back story first. Antoine suffered second and third degree burns after his mother's boyfriend set him on fire. He is still recovering.

Our affiliate Carol Levin reports that Antoine's uncle set up an account to pay for medical bills and the cash poured in. Strangers donated about $4,000 to help this boy. It seemed like his mom and uncle were going to see him through all of this. But all they saw, it turns out, were dollar signs.

Antoine's mom, Jodi Stewart, and his uncle, Jeffrey Stewart, are charged with stealing about $2,500 from the fund set up to help Antoine recover. They reportedly spent that money on gambling and drugs. Police figured it out using deposit tickets and bank surveillance video as well. So Jodi Stewart, let me say this -- you are not going to win the mother of the year award this year, this is for sure. Not a chance. Stealing from your own son after what he has suffered. For that, Jodi and Jeffrey Stewart, it is time for you both to face the music.

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KAYE: Now let's take a closer look at stories making headlines across the country. At street level, let's to go Zanesville, Ohio, where the widow of the man who released dozens of wild animals from his refuge before he killed himself is getting the six surviving animals back. And it could happen this afternoon.

We want to warn you, some of the video you're about to see may be tough to watch.

Of the 56 animals released, only a grizzly bear, two monkeys and three leopards were taken alive.

This is video from our affiliate WEWS. Columbus zoo officials said they had hoped Marian Thompson would leave the animals in their care. For more on this, wildlife expert Jack Hanna will join Brooke Baldwin live in about 90 minutes. Make sure you to stick around for that one.

To Steubenville, Ohio, the FBI is now on the case of Amish on Amish violence. In one attack, a group of men allegedly pulled a man out of his home earlier this month, held him down and cut off chunks of his beard. A man's beard is an important symbol of faith in the Amish community. The Jefferson County sheriff says there have been a handful of cases in eastern Ohio.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

SHERIFF FRED ABDALLA, JEFFERSON COUNTY, OHIO: What's been going out there is not true Amish. True Amish don't act like that. True Amish don't go out roving around attacking people.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

KAYE: Five men have been arrested and charged with kidnapping and burglary.

To Clintonville, Wisconsin, now where it is lights out to save some dough. The city is trying to come up with $357,000 in budget cuts so it turned off 10 percent of the city street lights. The city administrator says it will save $7,000 a year. People who live there may not like it or think it is unsafe but the city says police will still be on patrol.

And finally to Cleveland, Ohio, where you can find some of the best recipes around but not just any old recipes. These recipes are as good as grandma's. Oh, but did I mention that they're from ghosts?

Renowned paranormal investigator Mary Ann Winkowski says that she's been talking to the dead since she was just a toddler. You may not recognize her name, but chances are you know the TV show based on her supernatural abilities. CBS's "Ghost Whisperer" followed the life of a woman with the ability to communicate with ghosts.

Winkowski has also used her ability to get great recipes from the dearly departed. And now she has compiled them in a new book, "Beyond Delicious: The Ghost Whisperer's Cookbook."

Mary Ann Winkowski joins us now.

Mary Ann, this sounds like a fantastic cookbook. Certainly not something that many people would associate with ghosts.

How did you come up with this idea to put all these recipes from beyond together?

MARY ANN WINKOWSKI, AUTHOR: It was almost a fluke. I have this box of recipes that I had gotten over a 30, 35-year period. And we were talking about it this time last year with somebody and they said, gosh, why don't you just do a recipe book? And I said, I'm not a cook. I'm a ghost buster. And they said yes, but you got the recipes, go ahead and do it.

And there's a great story that goes with each recipe so you know how I got it. But there's some unique recipes in there.

KAYE: So did this start with one ghost? One recipe?

WINKOWSKI: The first one I got was Bess's nut roll. And it was funny, the woman that owned the house had invited me in. And it was between Thanksgiving and Christmas when everybody does their Christmas baking. And the house smelled so good when I went to the house.

And here were these nut rolls cooling on the sink. And I got to tell you, they smelled good but they really didn't look too good. So we sit down in her dining room for me to talk to the ghost. And I said, wow, you must really like to cook those. She said, I give them to everybody. Christmas gifts, the priest, the neighbors, and the ghost says to me, she is not a bad cook. She said, but she can't bake for a tinker's dam. I went, whoa, OK.

KAYE: What is the reaction from families when they see that you're getting recipes from their loved ones that have passed on? WINKOWSKI: They ask for certain recipes. They will actually ask, can I have -- you know, what was the trick to the stuffing? Which is actually in the book.

Or, you know, grandma made these gum drop cookies. Does she remember the recipe? Or what am I doing wrong?

Don't you know, somebody, that when they give you a recipe, they always leave out one ingredient? Sometimes that's enough for a ghost to stay. So you know, it was just interesting. There are people that are reading this book that said, gosh, that was my Aunt Millie's recipe from 45 years ago. I think it's --

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: Is there a favorite recipe that you have?

WINKOWSKI: I actually, I like the stuffing recipe. I thought the stuffing recipe was excellent.

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: And so even for a nonbeliever, there's something in the cook book?

WINKOWSKI: Of course. A recipe is a recipe. You don't have to believe in ghosts to eat. Anybody can cook a recipe.

KAYE: Well, I don't know about that. I've tried and failed miserably, but it sounds really interesting, Mary Ann. We appreciate that. And we look forward to checking out your book as well. Very, very interesting stuff. "The Ghost Whisperer's Cookbook," beyond delicious.

Thank you very much.

All right, let's talk politics now.

And Rick Perry's potential debate skipping apparently already finding some critics.

Paul Steinhauser has much more on that. He's at the political desk in Washington.

Hi, Paul.

PAUL STEINHAUSER, CNN DEPUTY POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Randi, I was waiting to see how you would make that transition from the previous segment to me and now you did it very smoothly. I got to give you credit there.

KAYE: Thank you.

STEINHAUSER: Yes, let's talk more about the Texas governor. You were chatting about it earlier this hour. You had a really good discussion there about whether it was a good idea or a bad idea for Rick Perry not to maybe partake in all of those debates.

But one of his rivals for the GOP nomination is definitely weighing in on the controversy. And that is Rick Santorum, the former senator from Pennsylvania, who is pretty low down there in the polls at least in the battle for the nomination.

Here's what his spokesman told CNN just a few minutes ago. "I thought Texas governors were supposed to be tough. How can Governor Perry expect anyone to trust if he can take on Obama and the Democratic machine when he thinks debating his fellow Republicans is too tough?" That's from Hogan Gidley with the Santorum campaign.

We've reached out to the Perry campaign to see if they want to react to react to that kind of trash talk there, but we'll just leave that one as it is.

Hey, one other thing I want to share with you, Randi.

Now our brand new CNN "Time" magazine ORC Polls in the battleground states. I'm sorry not the battleground states, in the early primary caucus states. Look at this number.

We were talking a lot about who is up and who is down. But here's another good takeaway. Republican voter definitely haven't made up their mind. Look at that. Only 23 percent of Republican voters in Iowa say they are definitely going to support the candidate right now backing 28 percent in Florida, 30 in South Carolina and 32 in New Hampshire.

The takeaway here, Randi, is there's a lot of wiggle room with these voters. Just over two months away from the start of the voting and the causes and primaries. But is seems like a lot of these voters have not made up their minds, they want to see the candidates more and I guess they want to see more debates even. Randi?

KAYE: Yes, more debates. We'll see who is actually present at those debates, right?

STEINHAUSER: Exactly.

KAYE: I mean, if they want to get their fill of the candidates, the candidates kind of have to be there, right?

STEINHAUSER: It helps. And, you know, listen, the Perry campaign is saying, listen, we want to go to Iowa, South Carolina, New Hampshire, talking to the voters directly. Not go to these debates.

KAYE: Yes.

STEINHAUSER: But a lot of voters, see these candidates from these debates, Randi. No doubt about it.

KAYE: Got it. Paul Steinhauser, thank you very much. Appreciate that.

STEINHAUSER: Thank you. KAYE: And thank you, everyone, for watching today as always. I would love to hear what you think. You can continue the conversation with me on both Facebook and Twitter at RandiKayeCNN.

Nice to see you today. Nice to be with you. Now I will hand it over to Brooke Baldwin. She is in Atlanta.

Hi, Brooke.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Randi, I'll take it. Thank you so much.