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Police Shut Down Occupy L.A.; Pfizer Loses Patent for Lipitor; Herman Cain Campaigns in Ohio

Aired November 30, 2011 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

T.J. HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: We're at the top of the hour, noon Eastern Time here, in Atlanta, Georgia.

Thank you for being with us. I'm T.J. Holmes.

Get you up to speed now.

Herman Cain coming under fire for an alleged affair, but he is swinging back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HERMAN CAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As you know, I have already been attacked not because I have bad ideas, because the ideas are solid. They're attacking my character, my reputation, and my name in order to try and bring me down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Well, yesterday, Cain told his staff he was "reassessing" his run for the White House. This was after Ginger White, a single mother of two, said she and Cain had a 13-year affair.

Cain is making campaign stops across Ohio as we speak. He's expected to explain exactly what he means when he says reassessing his presidential bid.

Meanwhile, in an interview on ABC's "Good morning America," Cain's accuser, Ginger White, was asked whether she thinks he is fit to be president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GINGER WHITE, ALLEGES AFFAIR WITH HERMAN CAIN: In my opinion, no, I do not. I honestly do not think that he is -- in my opinion, would make a good president, as far as I'm concerned. Our -- my views are different than his views. But at the end of the day, this is not political. This is absolutely not political.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: All right. Just past the top of the hour here, of course.

We're keeping a close eye on the markets today, because the Dow shot up about 300 points, so right after opening this morning, and now still continues to go up, around 415 points now. This is after banks across the country -- around the world, I should say -- did a coordinated effort to really shore up confidence in the markets and the entire financial system across the world.

Banks are responding. Investors are responding.

We'll keep a close eye on what's happening.

Also, in Los Angeles, police there have cleared out and shut down the camp set up by the Occupy protesters, arresting dozens of people who refused to leave. Now, about 1,400 police officers moved in just after midnight to shut down the camp on the lawn of City Hall. It had been there about two months.

Well, 200 people were arrested. Police say the operation, though, was for the most part peaceful.

And a massive public sector protest kicking off in Britain. Up to two million public workers from teachers to nurses and immigration officers staged a one-day walkout to protest pension cuts. Some 60 percent of schools are closed, hospitals have canceled non-emergency operations. International travelers are being told to expect long delays at Heathrow.

And attorneys filed the first lawsuit today against former Penn State defensive coach Jerry Sandusky. The alleged victim is identified only as "John Doe." The lawsuit claims Sandusky molested him more than 100 times beginning when he was 10 years old. The document also says Sandusky threatened the boy and his family if he told anyone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF ANDERSON, ATTORNEY FOR ALLEGED VICTIM: It is against Jerry Sandusky, who abused him and violated his trust as a child for over four years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: The lawsuit also names Penn State and Sandusky's charity, Second Mile, as defendants.

Meanwhile, another alleged victim speaks out about the child sex abuse allegations at Syracuse University. Mike Lang was a former Syracuse ball boy, told CNN that assistant coach Bernie Fine molested him. Fine has denied the allegation. He has not been charged with any crime.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE LANG, ALLEGED CHILD MOLESTATION VICTIM: He kept touching me.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So where though? Where did he touch you?

LANG: In my leg and my penis.

TUCHMAN: And did you say something to him? LANG: Yes. I said, "Bernie, please stop this because I'm not that kind and I won't tolerate it. If you don't want me to come over here no more, I won't come over here. But if you keep doing it, I'm not going to come over here."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: And this was the reception that Syracuse head basketball coach Jim Boeheim got last night at their game against Eastern Michigan. Earlier in the day, Chancellor Nancy Cantor voiced her support. Boeheim initially defended Bernie Fine. The two have been friends about 48 years.

Now, with more allegations out there, he says the investigation will have to determine what happened "on his watch."

Well, 30 years ago, he shot the president. Yes, a lot of people will remember this scene.

But now, today, John Hinckley, Jr., the shooter, is in court seeking his freedom from a mental hospital. Hinckley's motive for the attack on Reagan, strange as it may sound, was to impress actress Jodie Foster. He was eventually found not guilty by reason of insanity.

Our senior political analyst David Gergen was on Reagan's White House staff and remembers that day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: That was a turning point, yes, a turning point for Ronald Reagan, because, he -- what the country saw was a man who continually cracked jokes when he was near death, told the doctors, "I hope you're all Republicans." A nurse grabbed his hand and said, "I hope Nancy knows about this."

And people saw that, and what they saw was what Hemingway called courage, and that is grace under pressure -- grace under pressure -- and it made a huge difference in America's respect for Reagan. He was a much -- in fact, a much stronger president after that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Well, Pfizer has lost the patent today on one of its biggest moneymakers. The cholesterol-lowering drug Lipitor is going generic. Now other companies can start making less expensive versions available.

Lipitor sales topped $5 billion just last year. That was just in the U.S. Pfizer says 17 million people have prescriptions for it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: You are on the wrong side! You are on the wrong side! You are on the wrong side!

(END VIDEO CLIP) HOLMES: Turn back to Los Angeles now.

Police have shut down the Occupy protest camp. Fourteen hundred officers moved in just after midnight. About 200 people were arrested.

LAPD Commander Andrew Smith is with us now.

Sir, we appreciate your time. And for the most part, most people down there wanted to go peacefully?

COMMANDER ANDREW SMITH, LAPD: You know what? Most of them did. A couple hundred needed to be convinced by going to jail, but for the most part, it was a pretty cooperative crowd and very nonviolent. So we're happy about that.

HOLMES: About 200 arrested. What was your estimate of how many were actually down there?

SMITH: You know what? It's awful tough to make an estimate, because the crowd swelled.

Early in the evening, they sent out some twitters saying, hey, the cops are coming to get us, come down and join us. And literally, hundreds of people flowed in from all over the area. So it was really tough. It started out relatively small, but by the time it got going, both of these streets behind me were completely filled up with people.

HOLMES: OK. And it's described from some of the accounts I have read that you all employed a technique where you essentially encircled this entire camp.

Is that what happened? And how did you come up with a strategy for what could have been an explosive situation?

SMITH: Well, we've learned a lot in the city of Los Angeles about crowd management and crowd control. One of the things we used to do is put a long skirmish line of officers out and then push the crowd in one direction or another. This time, we surrounded the park and then we flooded the interior of the place we surrounded with officers.

We had about 1,400 officers here last night, and our cops did a great job last night staying focused, being disciplined, being completely professional and totally patient. And I think when the protesters realized that there were cops all around them, they pretty much gave up and decided either I'm going to leave or I'm going to get arrested.

HOLMES: How do you keep them from coming back?

SMITH: Well, there's a K-rail fence behind me. You can see that. It's got a big cement bottom and it's got about a 10-foot fence on the top. That was designed originally for NASCAR races to keep cars from going through it, but it's going to be awful tough for anybody to get back in there.

In addition, we've got officers lining the entire perimeter. So, until the grass gets back and we can rehab the lawn and the area over there, no one's going to be allowed in.

HOLMES: How much has this Occupy encampment cost your department over the past couple of months it's been there? Yes, in dollars, but also in manpower.

SMITH: Yes, we don't have a dollar figure yet. That's going to take a while to compile. But, for instance, last night, taking 1,400 police officers, most of them on 12-hour shifts, and pulling them from all over the city, it's staggering, I think, the amount it's cost, mostly in terms of decreased policing in other areas.

We don't pull these cops out of nowhere. They either have to come in on overtime or we have to pull them from other neighborhoods where they should be out there handling radio calls and providing police service in the area.

HOLMES: In some ways maybe a couple of your officers -- and I'm sure around the department -- maybe this conversation came up where, in some ways, you sympathize with the protesters, and maybe some of the officers even conflicted about having to grab some of them and pluck them out of there because I'm sure some of your officers may feel like maybe they wish they could be out there protesting in some way.

Did you find that some of your officers do have that conflict?

SMITH: Well, you know what? I know some officers have their own personal feelings about it, but they knew they had a job to do last night.

We certainly support people's First Amendment right to protest. We're all about protecting that and ensuring that people are able to do that. But it just got to a point where, you know, hundreds of people living on this little patch of grass behind me just became unsustainable. And it was being co-opted, I think, by a lot of other groups from the outside that really had no interest in the original Occupy message, but were more into, you know, smoking marijuana and hanging out and looking for trouble.

HOLMES: All right.

Commander Andrew Smith, we appreciate you taking the time with us. We'll check in again.

We're 10 minutes past the hour now.

It is the Christmas season, or the holiday season? You're getting a Christmas tree, you're getting a holiday tree? Whatever you call it, you better be ready to defend your position.

That brings us back to our "Talk Back" question of the day.

Carol Costello, here with us once again.

This comes up every year. It can get kind of heated.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It does, and it certainly does get heated, T.J. No doubt about that.

It is that time of year. Not that time for good cheer. It's time to wage war on Christmas. Yes, it has begun.

The first bomb allegedly dropped in Rhode Island. Governor Lincoln Chafee, neither Republican or Democrat, but Independent, called the statehouse Christmas tree a holiday tree. Fox News, as it does every year, went crazy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, if it was a maple tree, or an elm in there, maybe it's a holiday tree, but it sure looks like a Christmas tree.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If it has -- Steve, if it has lights and ornaments and an angel and decorations on top, it's a Christmas tree.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, you're right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Oh, but Chafee is sticking to "holiday tree." He says, "Use of the term 'holiday tree' is a continuation of past practice and does not represent a change of course on my part. The word 'holiday,' he says, "symbolizes religious freedom."

I know, it's ridiculous, depending on how you look at it. As political reporter Jason Linkins writes on "The Huffington Post," "There is no war on Christmas, never was." He goes on to write, "In fact, many Christians, myself included, register a basic level of annoyance at the way the Christmas season now stretches back into October because we don't really need a basic reminder of how to properly celebrate the birth of Christ or his divinity on the account of the fact there is a basic concept called faith that we keep in our hearts."

So, the "Talk Back" question for you today: Is there really a war on Christmas?

Facebook.com/CarolCNN. I'll read your comments later this hour.

HOLMES: All right, Carol Costello. We will see you again here shortly.

And here is what is ahead "On the Rundown."

First, the patent on the popular cholesterol drug Lipitor expires today. Find out when cheaper generic versions will hit the market.

Also, a toddler in Florida saved by three teenage boys after he falls into a canal.

Also, an historic visit to Myanmar by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. Find out what she's doing there.

Also, how do you prove someone is insane? We'll go inside the John Hinckley, Jr. case. A federal judge considers releasing him from a mental hospital, where he's been held since 1982 for shooting President Ronald Reagan.

And finally, a woman struggling financially says she is living in constant fear.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: All right. The top-selling cholesterol lowering drug Lipitor loses its patent today and generic versions will soon be available. That's good news for consumers, because those generic versions are expected to cost a whole lot less.

Our Senior Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen here now.

Seventeen million people have been using this drug, prescribed Lipitor?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: This is not just the best-selling cholesterol drug on the market, it is the world's best- selling drug.

HOLMES: Drug.

COHEN: And up until now, only one company has been allowed to make it. And you know what happens when only one company can make a drug?

HOLMES: Set the price wherever you want.

COHEN: They set the price. So it's about $160 a month to take Lipitor. And you can bet that price is going to come down when generics go on the market. And they're being shipped out to pharmacies as we speak.

HOLMES: OK. Already have been coming down. How much could they possibly come down?

COHEN: We don't know exactly, but I'm going to give you an example from the past.

When Prozac went off patent, this is what happened. This is what can you get now.

HOLMES: Wow.

COHEN: Prozac, the brand-name, if you want that, is $227 a month. The generic is $22 a month. So we could see something very similar to that with Lipitor.

HOLMES: OK. Are the drugs just the same? This drug has clearly helped a lot of people.

COHEN: Yes.

HOLMES: Lipitor has. So if you get a generic, people are going to have the concern, am I going to get the same results?

COHEN: People worry about that, but it's the same active ingredient. It is the same thing. I know it sounds so crazy. It doesn't have that nice, fancy "Lipitor" label on it, but it is the same thing.

HOLMES: Will some people still go for Lipitor just because of that reason, it still has the fancy "Lipitor" label?

COHEN: They certainly will. There are some people who still go for Prozac even though it's more expensive because they want that brand name. It's sort of like wanting Gucci, I guess. A similar kind of psychology.

(LAUGHTER)

HOLMES: All right. How do you get the drug you need these days? You have to wait for the generics to come out, but you want the right drug and you want it for a low price. What's the way you're supposed to get at that?

COHEN: You and I are going to do a little role playing. You're the doctor, I'm the patient.

Will you play doctor with me?

HOLMES: Oh, wow. Elizabeth --

COHEN: I know, not every day someone asks you that. Right?

HOLMES: Elizabeth, yes, please. Let's play doctor.

COHEN: All right. Hand me a prescription, Dr. T.J.

HOLMES: Hand you a prescription. All right. This is what you need.

COHEN: OK. Dr. T.J., is this a brand name?

HOLMES: Yes.

COHEN: Have you written me a prescription for a brand name?

HOLMES: Yes.

COHEN: For a brand name, yes. Well, Doctor, brand names are expensive, and I'm on a budget. Is there a generic version of this drug?

HOLMES: OK. No, not right now.

COHEN: OK. Well, that's a problem. Is there another drug, a totally different drug, that would work for me, but cost less?

And the reason why I ask this is that so many of us are on drugs for cholesterol, blood pressure, depression, common things. There's usually several drug that would work for us. So if there's a drug that your doctor prescribes you, and it's expensive and there's no generic, ask if there's a totally different drug that would work.

HOLMES: Really? OK.

COHEN: You can do that. CNN.com/empoweredpatient, I have all the advice, all the details on how to go about doing that.

HOLMES: OK. You need to ask your doctor some questions. Is this why we see all those commercials for those drugs?

COHEN: Yes.

HOLMES: Because they want you to go in to your doctor and question your doctor, right?

COHEN: Yes. Because guess what? Those commercials work.

They work. When they advertise expensive drugs, patients ask for them. Doctors like to make patients happy. The doctors say yes. And sometimes the patients don't even realize how expensive it is.

HOLMES: So you don't have to take just what your doctor prescribes. And it's not his choice necessarily. He might recommend some stuff.

COHEN: Well, it is his choice. But you can ask, is there something else?

Sometimes the doctor will say no. Sometimes the doctor will say, this is it, this is the only drug for you. But for something like depression, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, something common, there's an excellent chance there's another drug that will work for you.

HOLMES: OK. You've really got me going here, because people often think that something cheaper is going to be not as good a quality as the expensive stuff.

COHEN: And it's just not true.

HOLMES: That's not the case with medicine.

COHEN: That's just not the case.

HOLMES: OK. Elizabeth Cohen, good stuff.

COHEN: OK. Thanks.

HOLMES: Thanks so much.

Well, we're 18 minutes past the hour now.

Tomorrow, we've got something coming up here for you, a live broadcast on YouTube called "The Beginning of the End of AIDS." It's bringing together some big names, including former presidents George W. Bush and Bill Clinton, musicians like Alicia Keys and Bono. And then right after that broadcast, Bono will be joining us live here, noon Eastern hour, to talk about his efforts in his fight against AIDS. We'll be asking him what life is like these days as a rock icon and, of course, about a lot of the work he's doing.

So you'll want to be here for that.

(NEWSBREAK)

(WEATHER REPORT)

HOLMES: We're standing by to hear from Herman Cain. He's doing a tour through Ohio today, a couple of campaign stops there.

One was expected to get started at noon Eastern Time, about 20 minutes ago. We're monitoring that. We're expecting to hear some comment from him about what he meant when he told some of his staff that he would be reassessing his campaign after the latest allegations of a 13-year affair that came out this week.

So we're standing by for that.

Also, Hillary Clinton goes where no secretary of state has gone in a half-century. She's visiting Myanmar to encourage the generals to loosen their iron grip on that country.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Twenty-five minutes past the hour.

A live picture here, and look at there. There he is, right on cue for us.

Herman Cain doing several campaign stops across Ohio today. This is the latest. This is in Dayton, Ohio. And it just so happens he was just introduced and he is just taking the stage.

He, of course, taking the stage, and on this campaign tour just days after a woman came out making the accusation that she had had a 13- year on-again/off-again affair with the married businessman from Atlanta.

Let's go ahead and listen in, because we're expecting possibly him to acknowledge and say what he meant when he told his staff that he would be "reassessing" his campaign. So he might explain that.

Let's listen in here for a moment.

(BEGIN LIVE SPEECH)

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

HERMAN CAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Great. Great. Great. Great. Great.

Turn the mikes up, please. Turn the mikes up, please, so I don't have to strain this bass voice, whoever is on the mike.

That's what I'm talking about. That's better.

I am glad to be back in Dayton, Ohio!

(APPLAUSE)

This is an absolute wonderful turnout. Now they got it turned up to much because we're getting an echo.

We're going to get it right here in a minute, folks. Just like we're going to get it right in the White House in 2012.

(APPLAUSE)

Let it be borne in mind that the tragedy of life does not lie in not reaching your goals, the tragedy lies in having no goals to reach for. It's not a calamity to die with dreams unfulfilled, but it is a calamity to have no dreams.

You know, the American dream is under attack. The American dream is under attack. But the good news is we can take it back.

(APPLAUSE)

Because we have become a nation of crises. Every day you turn on the TV, every day you turn on the radio, you pick up the paper, it's another problem, it's another crisis.

We have a national security crisis. We've got an economic crisis. We've got an energy crisis. We've got an illegal immigration crisis. We've got a foggy foreign policy crisis. We've got a moral crisis.

And the biggest crisis we have is a severe deficiency of leadership in the White House crisis.

(APPLAUSE)

But as my maternal grandmother, who used to -- who lived to be 104 years old, as she used to say, it's a mess, but it's our mess. And we have to fix our mess. And she's right. She was right. It's our mess.

We have allowed the mess in Washington, D.C., to evolve. But the good news is, there's a movement going on across this country, because we, the people, are still in charge, and the people are going to decide who's going to be the next president of the United States.

(APPLAUSE)

And like most businesspeople, when you have a problem or a mess, you fix it. You don't just kick it down the road. You fix it. That's what businesspeople do.

That's what separates me from all of the other candidates running for this position. You see, politicians propose ideas that they believe that they can pass. Businessmen, businesswomen, they propose ideas that fix the problem.

We've got problems to fix. We've got messes to clean up. Let's start with national security.

We are much weaker than we were three years ago. National security and foreign policy, we are much weaker.

Let me tell you what it will look like under a Cain administration, because, you see, I will -- I approach every one of those using a basic problem-solving approach: make sure you're working on the right problem. Assign the right priorities. Surround yourself with good people. Good people.

(APPLAUSE)

And that will allow you to put together the right plans to fix stuff.

National security, foreign policy, my philosophy is an extension of the Reagan philosophy. Peace through strength and clarity. Peace through strength and clarity. Our mission is peace around the world, but that doesn't mean we're supposed to be -

(END LIVE SPEECH)

HOLMES: We're at the bottom of the hour here now, and there is Herman Cain speaking at an event in Dayton, Ohio. This is part of three-stop tour through Ohio, a bus tour he was taking.

We were standing by to see if he might make comments about his reassessing of his campaign. He told some of his campaign workers that, in fact, he would be reassessing the campaign. This came just shortly after a woman from Atlanta came out and said she had a 13-year on-again/off-again affair with Herman Cain.

You're hearing him there. He sounds just ever much of the presidential candidate even fired up, energetic on this stop in Dayton, Ohio. We will continue to monitor it as he begins to go through how a Cain White House would look as you heard him there, but we are monitoring that.

Also other stories on the rundown we are working on for you, up next he shot President Reagan 30 years ago. Now John Hinckley, Jr. could be a free man. We'll talk about the law that would allow it.

Also, the finish line for the Iraq war. U.S. troops are making one final stop before their long journey home. Also later a new app for coach potatoes. Just tell it what you're watching on TV and it will show you a list of products you can buy based on your favorite show. Just what we need.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: He shot the president, but John Hinckley, Jr. escaped a life in prison by pleading insanity. Now, here we are 30 years later, he's in court, hoping to be freed from a mental hospital.

Want to get into this with Holly Hughes, criminal defense attorney, here in studio with me and psychologist Jeff Gardere, our dear friend as well joining me to talk about this.

Jeff, I want to start with you. It's pretty difficult, right, to prove or to be declared insane. But once you're insane, can you also be declared that you have found your sanity again? Is that what we're talking about here? JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: That is exactly what we're talking about, T.J. and what happened here in this particular case, is that this individual, John Hinckley, Jr., was found not guilty by reason of insanity in trying to murder President Reagan.

And what happened was, he was placed in Saint Elizabeth's Hospital over the years, by taking his medication, his psychotic disorder improved. And several doctors said that he was stable enough to have visits on the outside with his parents.

And has had actual conjugal visits at times with other females, and been supervised. And now what he wants to say is that he is completely sane, and should be released indefinitely with no supervision.

HOLMES: OK. Holly, let me bring you in here. How difficult of a challenge is it, one, to prove someone is insane? We were just talking about it in the break. It's pretty tricky to do. But now, what's the legal challenge in convincing a judge that he has now gone the other direction?

HOLLY HUGHES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, basically what they're going to have to do is convince this judge that he no longer poses a threat to society at large. That's the basic bottom line test that they're going to go for.

And like we talked about on the break, you know, it's getting harder and harder to prove that somebody's medically insane in a court of law these days because the basic bottom line is back when John Hinckley committed this crime, T.J., we were all shocked.

And we as a society would think you have to be crazy to be able to do something like that. But, the sad truth is, we have just been inundated now by the horrible crimes people commit. So we're no longer as forgiving.

We're no longer as willing to accept that you're crazy now. We just say you're not crazy, you're just mean. So it's harder and harder to meet that threshold that you didn't know the difference between right and wrong. And that's the legal threshold you have to meet.

HOLMES: Jeff, after society has or a jury, I should say, said a man is insane. What has to happen, what would have had to happen over the past 25 years to get him to the point of sanity? What kind of rehabilitation are we talking about?

GARDERE: Well, basically this is a person who is in a forensic hospital, or the forensic wing of a hospital. He has to be on medication because Holly is right. It is very difficult to prove that a person is insane. That's why less than 1 percent of the defenses use the not guilty by reason of insanity.

Only a quarter of them are found not guilty by reason of insanity. So they have to be really sick. And we're talking about a full-blown psychosis, schizophrenia. That means not just psychotherapy, but mandated being on anti-psychotic medications.

You have to stay on those medications and you have to be stable enough that you do know the difference between right and wrong.

HOLMES: What would have happened, Holly, if he would have shot anyone not named Ronald Reagan? If this man went to trial for doing the same thing with a group of folks who were not a part of the Reagan administration?

HUGHES: Well, I think when you're talking about a person who takes a gun, and just fires indiscriminately at a crowd of people, you're still going to see a very vigorous prosecution because for every person standing out there on the street that day.

The bystanders, the onlookers, that shooter could have been charged with one count of aggravated assault against every one of them, even though they didn't get hit because if you point a gun at somebody it's aggravated assault.

So what we're talking about is if you've got 20 people on the street, that could be 20 different counts of aggravated assault. Add in the attempted murder, no matter who the victim is that you're shooting at, add in the aggravated battery.

We know poor James Brady was shot in the head and suffered so badly he couldn't return to his duties. So you're looking at a possibility, most of those crimes carry a maximum of up to 20 years. When somebody this dangerous is on the street, the judge is going to throw the book at them.

And they're going to say, you know what, I'm going to give you 20 years on each one, but I'm going to stack them up. I'm not giving them concurrent, which means you serve one sentence, all of them at the same time. I'm going to run you consecutive and so that person could have ended up with a 300-year sentence for something like this.

HOLMES: Jeff, last thing here, are we trying to balance or will the judge try to balance, I guess, this man, John Hinckley's rights of rehabilitation, and to get out of a mental hospital, with, I guess, this very public case, and also trying to provide for the public safety? Is that the balance he's trying to strike?

GARDERE: That is the balance. This is a high profile case. This is a person who tried to assassinate a president. But yet at the same time you have to be open, and honest about the rights of others.

People who have schizophrenia, people who are doing better, and to say that you can never get better from schizophrenia, it really is a generalization that hurts so many Americans who do have schizophrenia, and who actually do get better, and who are not dangerous individuals.

HOLMES: All right, Jeff Gardere, Holly Hughes. We shall see you, starting a series of hearings today that are going to go on for the next week and a half or so. John Hinckley trying to get out of a mental hospital. Jeff, thank you as always. All right, we're 40 minutes past the hour.

After years of war in Iraq, the finish line is finally in sight for American troops. CNN will take you there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Vice President Joe Biden is in Baghdad. He told Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Al-Maliki today he's looking ahead to a new phase in relations for the two countries, as American troops leave by the thousands.

Almost all U.S. service members will be out of Iraq by the end of the year. After almost nine years of fighting and more than 4,400 lives lost, the end of the Iraq war, a lot of people have been waiting on it, but it is now actually in sight.

As the conflict gears down, things are pretty tight at one remote U.S. base in northern Kuwait. Our Martin Savidge is there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If the war in Iraq has a finish line, then Camp Virginia is it. The last six weeks as many as 350 vehicles a day have been rolling in to this remote base in the Kuwaiti desert delivering soldiers, and equipment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No brass, no ammo.

SAVIDGE: Here teams work day and night, guiding convoys through a series of stops. Each one, like an assembly line, in reverse, taking off, or as they say, downloading equipment, accumulated over years of war.

(on camera): And so what sort of stuff are they getting out at this particular point?

SARGEANT VALERIE CARTER, U.S. ARMY: They're getting any fuel oil. Any kind of oil, fuel, batteries. Anything that was not issued to them or that they bought, they've downloaded in here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Throw it all out?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Everything is sorted and collected to be thrown out, recycled, or put back in service.

SAVIDGE (on camera): We brought you to this motor pool because really it's one of the few places where you can go to get a sense of just how much we're talking about. How many vehicles, how many trucks, how much stuff. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): Camp Virginia has the capacity to house close to 7,000 troops and more than 5,000 vehicles. And even though officials say they're below those levels, they admit it's been challenging keeping up with what's coming out of Iraq.

LIUTENANT COLONEL BRYAN BOBO, U.S. ARMY: It's very busy. And I will say that we're making use of every available cot we have, all the space that we have. But it's going really well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At ease. Listen up. Hey, welcome to Camp Virginia.

SAVIDGE: But there are signs of strain. The base has had to greatly increase housing and office space. And the dining hall now remains open 24 hours a day, just to keep everyone fed. The goal is to move the soldiers from convoy to a flight back to the U.S. within five to eight days. But officers admit it can sometimes take longer.

And the next convoy into Camp Virginia is not expected until November 30th, to allow the system time to catch up. Yet despite such problems, morale remains high. Because as every soldier who makes it here knows, the next stop is home.

Martin Savidge, CNN, Camp Virginia, Kuwait.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

T.J. HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: More and more shoppers are looking for their smartphones and tablets for those great deals. Now an app has upped the ante. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: It's become the year of the sofa shopper. People who shop with their smartphones and tablets are part of a huge spike in holiday sales. And, of course, eBay looking to cash in with what else but a new app. Our Dan Simon spent some time with the executives at eBay.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, eBay built its reputation as a way to find and buy just about any product on the planet. Now for the holidays, it is launching a feature called "Watching With eBay" as a way to discover products that you didn't even know existed.

Here's how it works. You punch up their app on the iPad and you tell the app what it is you are watching on television -- whether it's a movie, a TV show or a sporting event -- and the app will display hundreds, if not thousands, of products related to what you are watching. They believe this is a fun way to merge entertainment and shopping and engage those couch potatoes in a way that's never existed before.

SIMON: The idea is if you're watching a hockey game, you might purchase hockey gear as you're watching it. And eBay facilities that?

STEVE YANKOVICH, VICE PRESIDENT OF MOBILE, EBAY: Yes. Or you might pivot into something else, which is really the cool thing. This is discovery. So as it turns out, I was actually testing the app recently and I was looking at football games. And it was Green Bay. And somebody actually makes a lawnmower grass catcher with the Green Bay helmet on that catcher. So you can mow your lawn with your favorite team for everybody to see while you're out mowing the lawn, right. It's that kind of discovery which I think is really interesting.

SIMON: So that is call "Watching With eBay" and they believe it is a great way to discover new products that you might be passionate about. And speaking of eBay, Paypal, a division of the company, is reporting a six-fold increase when it comes to people using their mobile devices to make those holiday purchases, whether it's their phones or tablets, and we're seen unprecedented numbers of people using their devices to make those holiday purchases.

Dan Simon, CNN, San Francisco.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: And it's our "Talk Back" question of the day, is there really a war on Christmas? Paul telling us, "Christmas tree, holiday tree, whatever. We get so hung up on things that mean nothing." Hmm, do you agree with that one? More of your response just ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Well, you all have been talking in our "Talk Back" question of the day. Carol Costello has been asking, is there really a war on Christmas?

What are they saying?

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Got a good response to this question, T.J. Is there really a war on Christmas?

This from Karalyn. "The only war on Christmas is the one waged by retailers to turn it into a six-month spending spree, instead of the beautiful celebration it's supposed to be."

This from Rebecca. "Absolutely. I will continue fighting to celebrate Christ's birth. After all, that's what merry Christmas means."

This from Chuck. "There's no war on Christmas, just an assault by Christian fundamentalists. Now when you say merry Christmas, you're making a political statement about your support for the radical Christian right. Christian right has made it so I no longer want to wish anyone a merry Christmas."

And this from Frankie. "There's no need to argue over something so small like the name of a tree, especially when we face bigger issues in the United States today."

Keep the conversation going, facebook.com/carolcnn. Thanks, as always, for your comments.

T.J. will be back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: We know a lot of people are out there looking for work right now and it is awfully difficult, but even tougher for a lot of people already at retirement age. Our Poppy Harlow has the story of a woman who says she would rather die than become a burden to her only son.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BETTY WONG TOMITA, PART-TIME RECRUITER, CITY HARVEST: No matter what your spouse or partner says to you, save your money for retirement. I listened and I shouldn't have. My name is Betty Wong Tomita. At this time I'm 68 years old. I'm fortunate enough to work as a part-time recruiter at City Harvest.

Am I worried? Am I apprehensive of my future? Yes. If 50 something- year-olds have a problem looking for a job, a woman past 65 is really not going to have much choices. So I thought, well, I'm muddle through. I'll try to cut my expenses as much as I can. That was my solution to my problems. It's hard to move down from, you know, from what you're used to. But I had to do that.

I'm -- I don't want to be a burden to my son. I lived through taking care of my mother through her declining years. And I have a sister and a brother. The three of us shared the responsibility. I only have one son. I don't want to put on him what the three of us had to face. And I don't know how to go about it. And, frankly speaking, hope that I'll be killed in a car accident. That's the best that I can hope for.

I'm 68 years old. I have lived life. I've had my life. But I can't live under a state of constant fear. I mean, how can you? So I feel I have to live my life now. One day at a time. One month at a time. And I have a good life now. I live in a good place. I have good friends. I'm working. And what more can you ask from life?

POPPY HARLOW, CNNMONEY.COM: And as for Betty, she actually used to own her own company. And today, with that part-time job she has, she's making just one fifth of what she used to earn. But she told me she just has to make do with what she has at this point.

And what's interesting is that Betty's not alone. She told me when we spoke last that what she's feeling is a common feeling among a lot of her friends. She even said that some of her friends feel like, at an older age, they're being discriminated against when they try to find work.

You can see more of our story on Betty. It's all on CNN Money.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: Thanks, as always, to our Poppy Harlow.

Let's hand this thing over to Randi Kaye, who picks it up in the newsroom for this next hour.

Hey there, Randi.

RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there, T.J. Thank you.