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The End of the Iraq War
Aired December 17, 2011 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Don Lemon at the CNN World Headquarters in Atlanta with special coverage on the end of the U.S. war in Iraq.
Joining me now for the entire broadcast, CNN international anchor, Hala Gorani, who is in Washington tonight.
Again, we welcome viewers from around the world.
We want to go to Baghdad now, which was the beginning and the center of this conflict in the beginning. CNN's Arwa Damon has reported extensively from Baghdad throughout the war.
We've been talking about the more than 100,000 Iraqi civilian casualties and millions more who have been displaced bid this war -- Arwa?
ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And, of course, Don, there are the tens of thousands if not even more who have been wounded, many of them amputees, many of whose lives will literally never be the same. Don, you would be hard pressed to finds a family in Iraq that has not lost a loved one or directly suffered the consequences of this war. Many Iraqis at this stage as the U.S. is preparing to fully withdraw incredibly frustrated, disappointed and to a certain degree angry with the United States because of all of the mistakes that have been made here because they feel as if they are the ones that ultimately paid the cost. They look back at the nation that the U.S. is leaving behind, and despite what we are hearing from the Obama administration, from Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki, this is very much a smattered nation. This government, many people will tell you, is not one of national unity. They still do not have security and stability in the way anyone would want to have it. There are still deaths that take place here on a daily basis. Basic services still in shambles. Nine years on, many Iraqis don't understand how it is they only still have two hours of city power a day -- Don?
LEMON: And, Hala, you've seen it firsthand yourself.
GORANI: The infrastructure in the country when I was there was, in some cases, absolutely disastrous. You were lucky if you were an ordinary Iraqi to get electricity more than a few hours a day.
But to the present day, I wanted to ask Arwa a question there, as she's been covering the last few days. This political crisis that's unfolding, here you have Nouri al Maliki, the prime minister, rumors flying around that the Sunni vice president, Tariq al Hashimi, is about to be arrested. That prompts the mainly Sunni block, Iraqiya, to walk out of parliament and threaten to suspend their participation from the government. I mean, this looks like a very difficult, to say the least, situation politically for Iraq.
And, Hala, what it also looks like is this so-called unity government is unraveling before the last American soldier has left Iraqi soil. When it comes to what's happening with regard to the vice president, one of the prime minister's senior advisers told us earlier in the day that they had concrete evidence that was implicating Vice President Tariq al Hashimi, who is a Sunni, in the bombing that took place inside the Green Zone, allegedly targeting Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki that happened a few weeks ago. We sat around waiting for a press conference, but a few hours later, officials said that, at this point, they were going to hold off on their reporting until they could fully complete the investigation. This, Hala, is really Iraqi politics at its best.
Meanwhile we also had the Iraqiya bloc actually suspending its membership from parliament. And if you'll remember, when this government was initially formed, it was mostly an agreement between the Iraqiya bloc, headed by the former prime minister, Ayad Allawi. This is a mostly Sunni bloc, although it is fairly cross sectarian, viewed as being secular, and the bloc of Iraqi prime minister the state of law coalition. This was supposed to be a power-showering agreement but members of Iraqiya will tell you that it is anything but. They are accusing the prime minister of consolidating power. He maintains full control over the national security portfolio, in other words, the ministries of defense and interior. In fact, his deputy, Deputy Prime Minister, Saud Muktar (ph) went so far as to directly call him a dictator who is refusing to relinquish power. And he had a warning for the United States, especially at this the point in time. He said that al Maliki was playing Iran and the U.S. That one day the U.S. realized this and growths to regret their decision to back the prime minister -- Hala?
LEMON: Hala, you have a unique perspective here on what Arwa was talking about. Arwa is there now and clearly knows what's happening on the ground very well. Being here in the United States and having been there and listening to what Arwa was saying, what does that mean for the government there and for our troops and for the American people when she talks about what's going on there?
GORANI: The big fear as far as Iraqis are concerned -- and I think as far as western powers are concerned as well, because once this develops in the way that some fear inside of Iraq, in other words, that Nouri al Maliki is just waiting for this U.S. troop presence to leave his country in order to consolidate his power there. The question is, is Iraq on its way to democracy or not?
And Arwa, you're in Baghdad there. I mean, that's going to be the question after nine years of war and all these lives lost. In the end, what emerged from all this politically, anything resembling a democracy?
Well, we should go to Jill Dougherty at the State Department.
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LEMON: Hold on. We'll get to Jill, but I think Nic Robertson wants to weigh in on this.
Nic, are you there?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Don, I am. We're talking about how does this relate -- we're talking about how does this sort of sectarian divide that seems to be happening and coming to some kind of a specific head right now as troops leave, how does this affect the United States. One of the ways it affects is we talk about and people talk about Iran and Iran's growing influence in Iraq and that's manifested through sort of Shia political dominance that crosses sectarian divide. We're hearing Sunni politicians being hard pressed by this government.
One of the countries that has a great interest in what happens in Iraq has a long border with it, Saudi Arabia. They have a great interest in Iran's great regional interest. Saudi Arabia as we all know provides a very large amount of the world's oil. What happens to regional stability? Is Saudi going to fear that its interests are not served well if it allows Iran to grow stronger in Iraq? Would this conjure up images for some analysts of a proxy sectarian war in Iraq, which would potentially destabilize the region? Of course, this is speculation at this time. But when one looks at stability of Iraq and its neighbors, Saudi Arabia, no one's saying this is going to also affect their oil supply right now, but one can see how there's a tinder box developing right now, and the countries around have a vested interest. So one can see how this sort of thing grows -- Don?
LEMON: Nic, don't go anywhere.
Hala, it probably is a good time you were going to Jill Dougherty. Probably a good time to bring her in.
GORANI: Yes. I want to ask Jill -- we were talking about the concerns with regard to the political situation there in Iraq. Let's also talk about what's left behind. Here you have in Baghdad, after all this time at war, the biggest American embassy in the world in the Iraq capital with thousands of staff and private security firms in charge of insuring that everybody is safe there inside these several layers of blast walls.
LEMON: Jill?
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Biggest, absolutely the biggest, and the most challenging thing that the State Department has faced is really, literally will since World War II. Now that the military will be gone, it's the civilians who will be taking over. And the State Department says they'll have from 15,000 to 16,000 civilians. Now, who will they be? They'll be diplomats, as you would expect from the State Department, but also people from federal agencies, Treasury Department, aid workers, people from the Justice Department who will be reaching out and working in Iraq. But you can't pick up the phone anymore and call the U.S. military to protect you. So of that the 15,000 to 16,000 people, you're going to have roughly, according to the State Department, about 5,000 security contractors. And they will be providing security for everyone who has to go out outside of the walls that you were talking about, Hala. It's a gigantic mission. It's defensive. But there are some concerns. You know, there are concerns right from the beginning of how you manage this many people and how you account for the money.
GORANI: Let me ask you about the political relationship now between the United States and Iraq with the Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki, a man some are saying is playing both Iran and the United States at the same time, with what looks like a burgeoning disaster politically inside of Iraq. What are U.S. officials at the State Department staying about what's happening? What is their level of concern?
DOUGHERTY: I think they are concerned. You'd have to say that. Because one of the biggest and most important aspects of this was that you would have a functioning government. And if you don't have a functioning government and you have these divisions, it is very, very worrisome. And the overriding concern is the influence of Iran. You know, the United States certainly is going to try to let's say counter or even weaken the influence of Iran, and if you have a disintegrating government, Iraqi government, that is -- you know, it's like quick sand underneath that operation. So the in addition to just, you know, physically taking care of and protecting the people from the United States who carry out U.S. policy, if you don't have the government that you can count on, it's a major problem.
GORANI: Jill Dougherty, our State Department correspondent, thanks very much there, with a little bit more on what America is leaving behind.
And America is leaving behind the biggest U.S. embassy in the world in Baghdad.
Don, we're going to talk a lot about that and other things. And speaking of the American embassy as well, the American ambassador to Iraq joins us live.
LEMON: Our coverage of the end of the war in Iraq continues.
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LEMON: Boy, Hala, remember that, the opening days of this conflict?
GORANI: Yes. I do remember it. I was in Jordan right on the other side of the border with Iraq in 2003. Something that's etched in all of our memories that first day almost as clearly as 1991. The first Iraq War, you'll remember that, of course, as CNN really made its name back in the very early '90s, Don.
Well, Christopher Hill served as the American ambassador to Iraq from 2009 to 2010. And we are going to him. He is live in Denver.
Don and I are going to have a conversation with you. What are your thoughts as all of this draws to a close, Ambassador Hill?
CHRISTOPHER HILL, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ: Well, you know, in a perfect world, it might have been better to keep some troops there, but clearly this wasn't going to be possible because the Iraqis were always of two minds. On the one hand, they appreciate what we've done for security. On the other hand, they wanted us really to leave and for them to assume tear sovereignty. So I think it is going to be a tough period. We're already seeing signs that Maliki is having troubles with his coalition partners. And so I think we're all going to have to fatten our seat belts. But I think, at the end of the day, we have to realize this is their country, their politics, and they're going to have to work this out.
Is Nouri al Maliki -- you've met him, obviously. Is he the man to unify some Iraq or as some fear he's the man who will try to consolidate his power at the expense of others in Iraq?
HILL: Well, I tell you the only country that makes U.S. politics look like a picnic is Iraq. Maliki is a very tough leader. If he perceives that someone's coming after him, whether the person is or not, but if he perceives it, he goes right after that person. He's a very tough guy. He doesn't like to make concessions to people because he's concerned that that looks like some kind of weakness.
LEMON: Well, Ambassador, Ambassador, this question --
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HILL: Very hard line.
LEMON: The question is here, and I think Hala brings up a very good point. She said this earlier. Nouri al Maliki is seeing as playing both sides to the middle. You talk about what you perceive as his weakness. My question, most people ask, why is he still in power? Someone who was an ambassador and you know the politics behind this, why is Nouri al Maliki still in the position he's in now?
HILL: Well, his party had 89 votes. Allawi's party, which was where many of the Sunnis were, had 91. You need 163 to get a majority of the parliament. Allawi was never able to move beyond 91. Maliki, who worked day and night on it, was able to put together coalition partners and able to get the majority. That's why he's in power. It had nothing to do really with the U.S. installing him because, even if we tried to install him, that wouldn't necessarily work. And if we tried to remove him, that wouldn't necessarily work.
This has been an Iraqi game not just starting today with the troop withdrawals but this has been an Iraqi game for some time. He's a very tough guy and knows what he's doing. GORANI: Ambassador Hill, one of our correspondents in Iraq right now just e-mailed me a question for you, that can you essentially did not back Allawi, and were more in support of Nouri al Maliki. Is there regret there with regard to that position at the time?
HILL: Well, let me make very clear, we didn't back anybody. The issue was who could put together a coalition. And we worked a lot with all the parties to see who could put together a coalition. Allawi had a lot of sympathy from other parties but none of them would give him votes. Maliki was able to reach out and work with the Kurds and get the Kurds on his side. Then he was able to peel off some of the Sunnis within Allawi's party and he was ultimately -- this happened several months after I left. Ultimately, he was able to put together a coalition, a majority coalition. So I don't think it was really for the U.S. to be doing that.
As I said, he's a very tough guy. He doesn't, you know, like to deal with dissent. He doesn't like to make concessions to people. And so I think now he's going to have to learn, if he can't work out things with people, he's going to have a tough time staying in power.
GORANI: Chris Hill was ambassador, U.S. ambassador to Iraq.
Thank you very much for joining us.
And just where are we going to next? We're going to break?
LEMON: A little bit of a break and talk to our generals on the other side, because I'm interested in this conversation we have been having about the possible power vacuum in Iraq and all of that, Hala. I think you bring a very good perspective in listening to Christopher Hill here. It's something we need to discuss further.
We're back with our special coverage about the end of the U.S. war in Iraq in just moments.
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GORANI: All right. Welcome back to our continuing coverage of the U.S. troops leaving Iraq by the end of the year.
Retired General James "Spider" Marks ran the Army intelligence center in 2003 as the war in Iraq started. He joins us now from Washington, here with me in the studio.
LEMON: Yes, and also with us is retired General Wesley Clark, a former NATO supreme allied commander.
General, let's talk about this, all that oil, what happens now?
GEN. WESLEY CLARK, FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: Well, that's the question because that oil makes Iraq different from most other states in the world. There's tremendous wealth. The wealth is partially controlled by the federal government but may not all be controlled by the federal government. That's lots of oil out there to be explored and development. Kurdistan has oil and provides Iraq and Iraqis a reason to stay together as a state to work together for that oil distribution.
Iraq is a border state with a lot of pulls on it and a lot of pushing on it. We're in for very tough times as Syria comes apart in the weeks and months ahead.
But that Iraqi oil is a big factor. The experts say there's probably as much oil in Iraq as there is in Saudi Arabia. It's just not getting to market yet. But if they can put the political conditions together, it can.
LEMON: I want to ask you, all that oil, what happened to the notion that all that oil, millions and billions of dollars used to reconstruct Iraq, is that going to happen now that the U.S. has left, the forces have left.
CLARK: I think it could be done. But they've got to have security there. There's a continuous record of sabotage. There was an oil pipeline explosion not two weeks ago in Iraq. So it happens all the time. It's been one of the vulnerabilities that's been exploited by those who want to discredit and dismember Iraq. And so, the government has got to the win legitimacy from al of its citizens and then the security forces have got to represent all of those citizens and eventually they could and Iraq could emerge as a very stable and powerful regional actor. But right now, of course, it isn't.
LEMON: Yes, and Hala, it's that old saying, you're going to have to wait and see what happens with that.
GORANI: Yes, well, we're also going to have to wait and see how the U.S. presence in Iraq now plays out, especially in terms of these military advisers that will remain in the country, and as well, with all the diplomatic staff, the private U.S. security companies. You're still going to see more than 20,000 or so Americans remain inside of Iraq.
And Spider Marks, I wanted to ask you about what happens inside of Baghdad in terms of where this military assistance/consultant sit comes in, how it will play out.
JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, FORMER ARMY INTELLIGENCE CENTER DIRECTOR: Hala, the Office of Security Cooperation is what we're talking about and that will be centered in the embassy. And its prime responsibility will be the United States through put into Iraq's military apparatus, whether it's the security forces, border forces or the military itself. So there will be a request for training, there will be exchanges. It would not be unbelievable to have Iraqi officers and leaders come to the United States, maybe receive some training in- country with the support of the United States, maybe from in an indirect role, and certainly all foreign military sales will be done through this Office of Security Cooperation.
GORANI: I think we're seeing aerials there of -- correct me if I'm wrong, this looks like the U.S. embassy from the air, this huge compound.
Don Lemon, you're seeing it there essentially. Once these troops leave the country, you're still left with somewhat of a presence. It's not a military presence. But the U.S. wants to have as much influence as possible as is represented by its giant embassy in this region because it's strategically important with regards to Iran and other countries in the Middle East.
LEMON: Yes, the 20,000 troops. There are troops in other countries we've had conflicts with years ago, decades ago, and they are still there, as well. This is going to be interesting to see what happens with this big complex that you're talking about.
And as we've been saying wait and see, we're going to have to wait and see as you heard the representative there and the former ambassador both say, maybe we should have left more people in the country. But we shall see.
We have a special guest with us next in our special coverage coming up on the end of the war in Iraq -- Hala?
GORANI: Iraq's former national security adviser is here with us after the break. Stay with us.
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LEMON: Breaking news. I'm Don Lemon live at CNN world headquarters in Atlanta. You see my colleague there from CNN International, Hala Gorani. This is breaking news and it is history. The war in Iraq is officially over. U.S. troops are moving across the border into Kuwait now -- Hala?
GORANI: What this means is that really the last vehicle and the last convoy of the last, last, last anything you can imagine in terms of the military is crossing into Kuwait.
And this is where we can find our Michael Holmes. He is live at the Iraqi/Kuwaiti border.
We're seeing images there of these soldiers wrapping things up, loading equipment on to vehicles and driving in the desert to Kuwait.
Michael, tell us more.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Hala, I just heard the toot of a horn behind me. The last element of the last convoy is on approach. The gates you see behind me there, just past that is the official border between Iraq and Kuwait. And what's happened is, over the last few hours -- we've been here all night -- at about four or five hours ago, around 3:00 a.m. local time, the first element of this last convoy crossed over the border here into Kuwait. This is a convoy of about 100 or more vehicles broken up into four elements. The military calls them series. Three of those series have gone through. The last is on its way. Here's the first truck now. It's probably -- this vehicle here is probably part of the route clearance element that comes through ahead of each series and makes sure that the road is clear. And behind those vehicles there's going to be the last of the U.S. military presence or fighting presence in Iraq. There's about 500 soldiers who have come over, men and women who have been coming over during the night. And these are going to be the last of these.
So, it's been quite a historic moment and a very emotional moment around here overnight. But this is the last of the last coming up behind me right now.
Certainly, after nearly nine years, 4,500 U.S. military deaths, 30,000 plus wounded and of course nearly $1 trillion, of course this is now the very end as these guys come across.
What's going to happen, by the way, is they're going to head about a kilometer down the road that way. They go to a place called Midway Yard (ph), and there they get their weapons off, their heavy weapons, the light weapons, they clear everything. And then the vehicles move another few kilometers down the road to Camp Virginia. And Camp Virginia is where everybody has been mastering, and Martin Savidge has been reporting from there over the last few days. And it's from there that they will leave Kuwait and head back to the United States. That whole process takes four or five days.
You know, I was -- we were talking to a general a little earlier today, and he was saying, he pointed out, quite rightly too, that the majority of the guys who are going to be coming across the border, guys and gals, weren't even in the military when this war started. It's been a very long war. And as you've been discussing and I've been listening too, the big question, of course, is what they're leaving behind, Hala.
GORANI: Right. Just to update our viewers on what they're seeing with our Michael Holmes there, this is called the tactical road march, that's the way the U.S. military described it. It consisted of all these separate movements.
And, Michael Holmes, they essentially conducted the majority of this operation at night for security. We did not reveal the crossing of the last vehicle until now for that reason.
HOLMES: Yes.
GORANI: An interesting point, as well, is that they established some tribal relations, according to some in the military, with sheikhs along the highway to Kuwait as well, to make it as secure as possible, I imagine.
HOLMES: Yes. Well, from here to Kuwait is very secure anyway. But coming from Camp Adder, it's about a four- or five-hour trip that these guys have made on this last journey out of Iraq.
Yes, you mentioned the secrecy. There has been a lot of secrecy. We've been kept under wraps here all night. Haven't been able to tell anyone what's going on until that last element, the fourth in the series as they call it, has hit now crossing over the border and into Kuwait. Until they were about 800 meters away from here, everything was on the quiet. We weren't allowed to report anything. But now, these guys are considered safe, and they're considered now crossing into Kuwaiti territory.
There's a bit of a no-man's land, they say. There's an Iraqi checkpoint about 800 meters on the other side of that gate, and the actual border is about, oh, I suppose about 10 meters or so inside that gate. So once they were past the Iraqi end, one of the generals, General Buchanan, came over and said embargo is lifted, and we are able to come to you.
And you can see the vehicles coming across now, the massive Strykers that are so familiar to us who have been covering this war for so many years now. We spent a lot of time in those vehicles ourselves. And you can see them coming across. Those arching things over the top of the vehicles, by the way, I remember driving through the desert west of Baghdad a couple of years ago, and these vehicles would pull down power lines and, of course, that wasn't good for winning hearts and minds. So they put those things on it to actually lift the power lines over the top of these massive vehicles, MRAPS, mine-resistant armored personnel.
So you can see them coming through. They are heading down to Midway Yard, where they will remove the weapons, the 50 calibers you can see sitting on top there. And you see a tank coming through, an Abrams tank, as well. So they're moving everything out.
There's about 25, 30 vehicles in this last series. There's been at least that many in each of the other series we've seen come through over the last four or five hours. And for those in the United States, all of these soldiers are from 3rd Brigade, 1st Cavalry out of Ft. Hood in Texas. The reason they're the last ones out, well, it's really a matter of logistics. Each base as it was vacated and the troops were taken out, basically went pretty much north to south, and Camp Adder is the southern-most base. And so that's why it was the last one out.
And how the did they choose the last series? Well, that too is interesting. Basically everyone from inside the base moved out in the first few series. And these last people out were actually the guys that were on security around the base, guarding the base on the outside. And so what happened was the final vehicles from inside the base basically went around and picked up every guard who was doing his guard duty on the perimeter. They jumped in these vehicles, and they headed out.
Who's in the last vehicle? We don't know yet. There's obviously a lot of joy here, as you can hear, soldiers waving and cheering and tooting their horns as they come across.
LEMON: And Michael, there's millions and millions of pieces of equipment that have to come out of Iraq. And as you said, these are the last convoy, the last combat troops.
I want to update our viewers now. And just for Americans, for people watching here in the States, as we say, a sight for sore eyes, to see these folks leaving, the last combat troops leaving Iraq. President, the U.S. President Barack Obama has said earlier in the year that the last combat troops would be out by December 31st of 2011. And by 11:20, let's say about 11:22, U.S. time here in the United States on December 17th, 2011, the Iraq war officially over. Our men and women coming home except for the auxiliary troops that we have there, some 20,000 as Hala has been saying.
I think it's appropriate, Michael, if we just sort of listen to this, and for the many people who are so happy to come home and relish in this moment just for a bit.
Michael, this tactical road march that we have been talking about here, about making friends once again with tribal leaders, this all again happened under the cover of darkness. Just earlier in the month, there were 12,000 people at Camp Adder and then it dwindled down to about 500. And is anybody there now except for Iraqi forces?
HOLMES: No, there are not. There are no Americans left on that base anymore. In fact, yes, you say 12,000 a short time ago. There were 3,000 there a day or so ago. That's how quickly they moved out these final elements of U.S. presence here in Iraq. And yes, all under cover of darkness. These guys were out and patrolling in the last, even in the last month or so. They were having IEDs, improvised explosive devices, roadside bombs, and indirect fire, which is basically mortars and things coming into the base. So they've been taking fire in the last few weeks. And so getting them out under cover of darkness, the secrecy that has surrounded this final exit has been vital to what the military calls op sec, or operational security.
And you know, as I said, we've been not allowed to mention this or talk about it until this moment. But yes, a historic moment, coming out the way they went in, right across this very border.
LEMON: Michael, on a personal note, I know you have been to Iraq and you and I have talked about it many times. And you know war is hell, as they say. What is this moment like for you? Surreal?
HOLMES: You know, Don, I came across this border actually with the elements of the Marines in 2003. So yes, it's a bit of a full circle for me personally as well. I've been back and forth to Iraq every year since the war happened. We've had our share of close calls, seen a few things along the way. And you know, for a lot of the team here, and I was in Baghdad before I came down here to Kuwait. That was a bit of a somber reunion as well, just on a personal level. A lot of regular folks were there, a lot of our people and a lot of people from other networks, as well. And had sort of a reunion feel to it in a way, and a bit of a farewell.
So yes, it is a bit of a full circle feeling for me. Certainly I'm sort of a little bit delighted to be here at the border that we all crossed back in 2003.
LEMON: We're going to throw it to Hala in just a bit, but is this the last convoy truck behind you? They're closing the gate.
HOLMES: Yes, the gate is closing. The gate is closing. So this is the last vehicle. Fittingly, perhaps it is an MRAP, one of the signature vehicles of this war. Brought in when the roadside bombs became so ubiquitous. Let's just listen as this truck drives past. Very impressive vehicles too, I can tell you. I spent a bit of time in those.
The gates are now closed. The last U.S. soldier is out of Iraq, other than those who are going to be involved with embassy duties and the like.
So history in the making. Of course, the conversation you've been having and that we should continue to have, of course, is the Iraq that they're leaving behind, an Iraq where it may not be officially at war, but it's certainly a long way from being at peace, Hala.
GORANI: Right, Michael Holmes there at the border crossing. We saw the gate closing, a historic moment, visually as well, signaling the end, sort of that last vehicle crossing over and then these double gates closing behind it.
We're talking about Iraq's future as well, the future of the region. Joining us now is Iraq's former national security adviser, Mowaffak Al-Rubaie. He's in Baghdad. What are your thoughts today? You're watching these images on your TV screen, I presume, right now. What is going through your mind as you watch this, Mr. Rubaie?
MOWAFFAK AL-RUBAIE, FORMER IRAQI NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, at the outset, I have to say that a big, big thank you to the United States of America for bringing down Saddam Hussein, overthrowing that horrible, brutal regime just under nine years ago.
What happened after bringing down Saddam Hussein was a lot of collateral damages on the Iraqi side. And I think this is a jubilant moment. And we feel in Iraq that we own the country now. We regain our country. We have now our sovereignty and independence completely. And we -- this is -- the sense of belonging is now sky high to Iraq. And we believe that we are on the right track.
GORANI: So you are on the right--
LEMON: Hey, Arwa, excuse me, I'm sorry, Hala--
GORANI: Just one question to Mr. Rubaie. You say you're on the right track, but there's so much concern about there, Mowaffak Al-Rubaie, about just what's going on today in Baghdad, with the Iraqiya faction walking out of parliament. The idea and the concern and the worry here, that the prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, is going to take now advantage of an Iraq without a U.S. troop presence to grab on to more power. Do you share that concern or not?
AL-RUBAIE: Well, no, I don't. I think what we are going to see, a war with terrorism which we are much more suited to fight this war with terror.
LEMON: OK, can I just say--
AL-RUBAIE: And I believe we have done very, very well. There is a considerable reduction in violence in Iraq over the last few years. And there is a very, very good competent, professional Iraqi security forces in place. And if you are the chief of -- or commander of chief and you have reliable sources and confession of few people you have arrested, and you need to impose the rule of law, and you have to. This is a duty of the commander in chief, I believe.
GORANI: Don, I believe Don wanted to jump in there with a question.
LEMON: I wanted to -- I am going to ask him to stand by because I want to bring in General Wesley Clark.
I don't want to get too far away from these pictures, because again, this is historic. We're looking at the gate close behind our troops who have spent almost nine years in this country. And I think it's apropos to take these pictures and just sort of relish in it for a little bit and talk about it.
General Wesley Clark, as you look at this gate closing, you saw the last combat vehicle come out of there, you heard the hoorah from the troops, you saw the journalists rushing in to take pictures, you saw people touching that gate and looking over and probably praying and doing some last wishes as well. What do you make of this moment, General?
GEN. WESLEY CLARK, FORMER NATO ALLIED SUPREME COMMANDER: Well, I'm really happy for it. I think it's great that we're out. I think our troops have done a magnificent job there. I appreciate very much that the national security adviser, Mr. Al-Rubaie, did thank the United States of America. I think that's most appropriate. We went there. We tried to do some--
(CROSSTALK)
CLARK: We made some mistakes. But I do think one thing's very important to understand. Iraq's future is primarily up to Iraq. Just as it has been for several years. Ambassador Chris Hill said it very clearly. We couldn't put al-Maliki in power. We couldn't take him out. It's Iraq's government.
An as the national security adviser just said, they're much more capable of handling the anti-terrorism, counter-terrorism fight than the United States is. They're in the culture, they speak the language, and we've trained them.
So I wouldn't want to see us make too much about the worry about the fact that there's no American forces there. 40,000, 80,000 or 100,000 American forces can't determine the political future of Iraq. That's up to the people of Iraq themselves. And as we've seen in other countries that we've left, sometimes friendship develops better if you're not too heavy a presence inside the country.
LEMON: We're going to get back to the former national security adviser of Iraq, Mr. Al-Rubaie, in just a moment. But I want to bring in Spider Marks here and get his response as to seeing this gate close and seeing the last combat troops leave Iraq.
GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS (RET.), MANAGING DIRECTOR, OPPORTUNITIES DEVELOPMENT GROUP: Don, that's an extremely significant image, at least on a very, very personal level. When we moved north out of Kuwait back on March 19th, 2003, I mean that previously existing border fence between Kuwait and Iraq was taken down by the 1st Marine Division and the 3rd Infantry Division. And the current commander, Lloyd Austin in Baghdad, was the assistant division commander of the 3rd Infantry Division, a classmate and a dear friend of mine. And he was one of the first individuals to go across the border and to head north into Iraq. And now we see this incredible image of the gate, now improved, closing.
So now we're in a new stage. I mean, this is truly the end of the beginning. We're now into a new phase of our relationship with Iraq. Let's conduct that, as General Clark said and as the ambassador said, let's help the Iraqis as best we can. But it's clearly in their hands, not to blow this right now. Let's help them as best we can to get that right.
LEMON: And, Hala, we should probably get back to Kuwait, right?
GORANI: To Baghdad, I'm hoping. Mowaffak Al-Rubaie, can you still hear me?
AL-RUBAIE: I can hear you very well.
GORANI: I wanted to ask you a question because I was curious to get your thought on this. I've heard Iraqis tell me as we watch these images of troops, U.S. troops leaving Iraq for the last time, that they wonder if Iraqis would have brought down Saddam Hussein themselves, in the Arab spring style revolutions that we've seen this year in the Arab world. Do you think that would have happened?
AL-RUBAIE: It's very difficult to answer this question. It's a hypothetical question, and I believe what we should concentrate on now is the strategic bonding and strategic agreement with the United States of America to rebuild this country and look forward and look for -- see, we have committed thousands of strategic, tactical, operational mistakes. Both we the Iraqis and the United States of America in this country. But these are unintended -- call it collateral damages, whatever.
What we should concentrate on now is to rebuild this country, provide services, provide power, provide jobs to Iraqis, with the help of our strategic ally, United States of America. And that's what we should concentrate on.
This is a thrilling moment in our history. This is a moment, we -- historic moment, actually -- because we feel we regain our country. And there is no other, if you like, partner. Nobody is sharing this country with us. We own this country alone.
LEMON: Stand by, Mr. Adviser. Back now to where this is all going on. Michael Holmes standing by on the Iraqi/Kuwait border with a guest. Michael, who do you have for us?
Mike Holmes, can you hear me?
HOLMES: All right. I understand you have come back to us here in Kuwait, Don and Hala. I've lost my hearing here, so do bear with me. I'm joined by Major General Jeffrey Buchanan, to have a bit of a word about all this. What's it like for you, a bit emotional?
MAJ. GEN. JEFFREY BUCHANAN, U.S. ARMY: Oh, it is. Very. As somebody who spent so much time in Iraq and seen all the progress made there over the years, can't help but be inspired by all that we've accomplished there over the last eight and a half years. But at the same time, very thankful for and proud of all of our troops.
HOLMES: Must have been the last, the last little series, as you call it, the last group of four of this last convoy crossing the border?
BUCHANAN: Yes, it means a lot.
HOLMES: Were you relieved?
BUCHANAN: You know, I -- the way I describe it is not surprised. You know, thankful that everybody made it through safe and sound. But they're quiet professionals. That's what we do, and they did a great job.
HOLMES: You were up at Camp Adder in Iraq last night, as recently as that. No one's there now from the U.S.
BUCHANAN: No, they're not. No, all -- we've transitioned over the last couple of years, 505 bases, moved millions of pieces of equipment and redeployed all of our personnel.
HOLMES: And so what happened when you left Iraq? Because you described that to us, oh, it feels like ages ago, but it was yesterday afternoon, how it all collapsed in and the last man out was guarding the gate.
BUCHANAN: Actually we moved from the borders and then from north to south and completed a comprehensive withdrawal, probably the largest combined logistical operational maneuver since World War II.
HOLMES: Are you comfortable with the Iraq you leave behind?
BUCHANAN: I am. I think that they've made tremendous progress, but actually they still have a ways to go. You know, our president I think said it best when he said we would like to see an Iraq that is stable, sovereign and self-reliant. I think every one -- in every one of those areas, they've made tremendous progress. But in every one of those areas, they still need more work.
HOLMES: Yes, a realistic assessment. Thank you, General. We appreciate that.
And Major General Jeffrey Buchanan joining us from Kuwait. Back to you, Hala, or Don -- I can't hear either of you.
LEMON: That's OK. We will both take it. Hey, Hala, why don't we get to some Martin Savidge, because Martin Savidge is traveling with a convoy going to Camp Virginia right now. He joins us now by phone.
Martin, go ahead. What are you seeing there?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Can you hear me?
LEMON: We can hear you, sir. What are you seeing?
SAVIDGE: Well, we're right now at the -- we've just come across key crossing, coming from the Iraqi checkpoint to the Kuwaiti checkpoint. Now we're in the (inaudible) clearing area. We were in the last, absolute last convoy, fourth vehicle from the very end, with (ph) MPs (ph) from the 1st Cavalry coming out of Ft. Hood, Texas. It was a -- look at the launch now -- a nine and a half hour drive crossing the border officially to put an end to the U.S. military presence in Iraq. 7:37 a.m. local time. That was the announcement that was broadcast across the radio system inside of all the MRAPS.
It was a long ride. It was a bumpy ride, but it was an uneventful ride as far as any problems, any real difficulties. At times, the convoys did bunch up. They had to stop, allow the convoys to separate. That's for safety reasons. But there were no reports of any incidents of either IEDs or any gunfire reported at least for the radio network. Keep in mind, this convoy was heavily overwatched with aircraft coming from as far as away as aircraft carriers. And then also satellites, drones, helicopters, AC-130 gunships. There was literally a highway of steel flying above those that were running on the ground.
And now this convoy, there was a lot of cheering. A lot of back slapping, but a lot of very, very tired soldiers because of the fact that most of them have been up for 24 hours and there wasn't a whole lot of rest as they bumped their way along down the last few miles of Iraq.
But now they are out. They are safe. And they know that soon, they will be on their way home, and they have witnessed history. And they have watched it unfold right here before their very young eyes. And a lot of these soldiers, this was their first deployment. There are a couple that have been here in '03, like I was. But for most of the soldiers, this was watching the end of history. In fact, I've got to roll because we've got to move. So I'm going to leave it there.
LEMON: OK. Apparently, we're having a bit of a cell phone issue there with Martin. We'll get Martin back on.
But Hala, this is indeed amazing. As we look at these live pictures and we saw that gate close and we saw all of the convoy vehicles come out. Look at this. Hala, let's listen and you can pick it up after we listen to this.
GORANI: Yes.
All right. A few interspersed claps there, but you heard some cheers from the soldiers, the U.S. soldiers, the last American troops to leave Iraq.
Chris Lawrence, you're seeing these images, as well. You're the Pentagon correspondent. This is the end of a chapter for the United States in Iraq. What lessons were learned as far as the Pentagon is concerned?
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Hala, it's more than the end of a chapter. I mean, this was the career-defining event for so many in the military. This was also -- this war was the defining issue for so many families, military families. I mean, all in all, more than a million Americans served in Iraq at one time or another. So when you look at the impact of this, it's not going to be felt just today or tomorrow. It's going to be felt for years to come.
You know, when you look back at the lessons that have been learned and how this has fundamentally changed the military, you know, as you look at these pictures, look at the role of women. You know, hundreds of American military women in Iraq were wounded, killed and kidnapped like never before with asymmetrical warfare. Even American women serving in supply convoys were liable to be involved in fire fights, subject to intense violence. It changes the way that the military looked at women and looked at their role in combat in many ways.
You can see that today in the Marines's female engagement teams in Afghanistan where women are walking on foot patrols in full combat gear with male Marines. You also look at how this war empowered the military family. I mean, it was in this war that the grunt, the lowest ranking enlisted man, could use that combination of media and technology.
LEMON: Hey, Chris.
LAWRENCE: To make multimillion dollar changes to policy, Don.
LEMON: I just want to jump in, because these are the first trucks that cross into Kuwait, you can see, under the cover of darkness when this operationing to leave, this mission to leave Iraq first started. Those are the first trucks that we're looking at now. So, Chris, stand by.
Hala, I think it's apropos that we should bring in Nic Robertson, because Nic has been (ph) there (ph) since 1991.
GORANI: Right, and I wanted to tell our viewers as well what they were seeing, because those images that we saw of the gates being closed just seconds ago, we were seeing the gates being pulled open to allow these first vehicles to flow through.
Nic Robertson, you were -- remind me where you were in 2003 at the start of the war. Did you go in there in the initial weeks of the U.S. invasion?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We were in Baghdad right at the beginning of the air war when the shock and awe, those images that we've seen so many times now of huge explosions rocking one of the sort of presidential compounds there. So we were there right at the beginning. As the ground troops were crossing, we were in Baghdad witnessing the events that were happening there.
One of the things that strikes me when you look at these massive MRAP vehicles crossing over, the vehicles that so many of the troops were running around Iraq in were, at the very beginning, 2003 -- OK, there were some armored vehicles, Bradley fighting vehicles, an aluminum vehicle, pretty thin, but a lot of just humvees, without any armoring on them. And when you look at those vehicles now, this is one of the radical transformations because of the roadside bombs that we've witnessed through these many years of the war in Iraq.
But to witness these troops now coming out, I think it is and it does feel like, even from this distance, a very emotional moment, a very important moment. And a moment when people can begin to reflect on the lessons here.
But I think when the lessons are learned or if lessons are to be learned, there have to be some very, very honest and open discussions, where people are prepared perhaps to let slip part of their, if you will, their sort of heritage of their narrative in Iraq, where people have to sort of perhaps drop their guard a little bit and come very clean if lessons are to be learned. And we witnessed that in Baghdad firsthand when the troops first arrived in Baghdad. A lack of authority. The looting, which really began the anarchic situation that was very hard to put back in the box.
GORANI: Nic, we've got a minute left in this. I just want to go quickly to Arwa before we get back to you, Don, and all of our contributors tonight.
Arwa, you spent years there covering the war in Iraq at its worst. And now that it's just more peaceful but still uncertain as a country, what are your thoughts?
ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Hala, a lot of Iraqis over the last few days of course have been talking about this, and we've been seeing some muted celebrations, but these are not celebrations of Iraqis expressing their gratitude or their thanks to the United States for what transpired here. And that does not necessarily mean that it is because they believe that Saddam Hussein should have stayed in power. Many Iraqis wanted to see him gone, but then they say they were the ones that had to pay the price for America's mistakes. So there's a lot of questions for them. And I would not venture as to say that this is to be considered a victory for the United States.
Iraqis most certainly don't view it in that way. They view their future as being uncertain, unclear, and at this stage at times they feel like they are pawns in a larger game.
LEMON: Yes. And we want to leave you. Thank you, Arwa. We want to leave you with this, our viewers. More than two million U.S. service members have served in Iraq and Afghanistan. And we cannot forget the coalition deaths here, 4,800 or more. And 93 percent, 93 percent of those were Americans, Hala.
But I think that what we have to do, this is a happy time for a lot of people here, and we should not let that escape us.
GORANI: All right. We want to thank all of our guests. This is going to bring this hour to a close. Don Lemon, thanks, pleasure working with you, and thanks to all of our guests as well. Spider Marks, Wesley Clark, all of our reporters as well. Thanks for watching.
LEMON: Good night.
