Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Three Now Dead In Ohio High School Shooting; Fifty-Nine Delegates Up For Grabs; Seventy-Five Hundred Killed In Syrian Revolt In One Year; Crippled Cruise Ship Under Tow; CNN Visits Damaged Nuke Plant; Hard Lessons In School Safety; Santorum to Democrats: Vote For Me, Take Out Romney; Sheriff Joe Arpaio Not Concerned About Controversy; Michigan, Arizona Vote in GOP Primary Today

Aired February 28, 2012 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: It's 1:00 o'clock on the east coast and 10:00 on the west coast. We've got a very busy hour ahead, so let's get straight to the news.

And it is not good news. We are just getting word that a third young victim of yesterday's high school shooting in Chardon, Ohio, has now died. He is 16-year-old Demetrius Hewlin. His family says Demetrius was a, quote, "A happy, young man who loved life. We will miss him very much. But we are proud that he will be able to help others through organ donation."

In just about two and a half hours, the high school sophomore accused of shooting five fellow students, three of whom have now died, is due to appear in juvenile court. But the state's attorney general says that it is likely that 17-year-old T.J. Lane will be tried as an adult. People who knew him said that Lane was a guarded boy from a troubled family. For more on that and the victims and the fallout from yesterday's terrible attack, I want to bring in my colleague, Ted Rowlands, who is live in Chardon.

This young boy is in a lot of trouble, likely adult trouble. And now with a third death in this case, I'm hearing that the sheriff is saying, we're moving to another phase. What exactly does the sheriff mean by that?

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well clearly, you know, we're talking about a triple homicide and this is a premeditated homicide, actually, and to say that he's in a lot of trouble is an understatement. And yes, he is a juvenile at this point.

But we have seen in case after case where the crime, if it exceeds a certain level, there is a move by the prosecutor to try to get the individual responsible moved up to adult court. And we absolutely expect that to happen today, in a few hours, in the building behind me here. At this point, he is being treated as a juvenile, I'm not even releasing his name, but I think after this hearing is over, it will be a much different story.

BANFIELD: And Ted, his attorney was all over television already this morning, talking about the remorse and how this young man feels bad about what's happened. But I can't imagine that that will bode well for any kind of insanity defense. Do we have any idea what the defense might be for these actions?

ROWLANDS: Well, I think it's way too early to look at that in terms of -- as a strategy for a defense attorney. I think that, clearly, this defense attorney was getting out in front, because the community had so many questions. And he was working with the family.

And it sounded like the family really did want to communicate on some level with the community. And in cases like this, you see this very often, one of the victims, if you will, in this, is the family of the accused, a lot of times. You know, we don't know what signs were there, if any, but clearly they are going through a lot of pain as well, along with this entire community. And now, that pain is even deeper, within the last hour, this news that a third student has died.

BANFIELD: Ted, do we know anything at this point about witness accounts? I mean, other than what's been said on the news and those who ran for their lives and scrambled from that school, what about those who might be able to give more critical information about what actually happened inside that cafeteria, at that table, where now three have died and two more still are in the hospital.

ROWLANDS: Well, I think one thing it's safe to say in this case, Ashleigh, there not be a lack of information, in terms of eyewitness accounts. And then also, there is a surveillance tape that recorded the entire episode throughout, from the beginning, until the shooter left the cafeteria area. And one of the people that has seen this tape has talked to the Cleveland plain dealer, and he says that it is very clear, you see the accused here, T.J. Lane, walk in, sit by himself at a table in the cafeteria.

You see him reach into a backpack, pull out a handgun, and then go directly to a table where there were four -- three to four children at the table, young men, and he just shoots them all. Then you see him actually leave. So, with the witnesses, with this tape, I think they have a very, very clear picture of the details as to what happened during the actual shooting. Now, the motive, that's another story.

BANFIELD: The motive is always another story. But as you know and I know, you don't need to prove any motive in order to get a conviction in this case or any other. Ted Rowlands, thanks very much for that. Ted Rowlands reporting live for us in Ohio. And we'll have more on this story straight ahead.

But we do want to turn to our other news of the day, politics, another very big story today. Crucial primaries playing out in Arizona and Michigan. For Mitt Romney and for Rick Santorum, 59 delegates. That's the number up for grabs when both of those states go to vote all day today. A lot of attention on Mitt Romney's home state of Michigan, where his father served as governor back in the '60s. A lot of political pundits say losing Michigan could seriously sting Mitt Romney's bid for the Republican nomination. Some recent polls show that Romney and Santorum are in a statistical dead heat in that state.

And while the Republican candidates face off, President Obama took an opportunity to shore up support with the united auto workers. He told them he was proud of them and said that he knew the 2009 auto bailout would succeed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And It wasn't because of anything the government did, it wasn't just because of anything management did, it was because I believed in you. And I placed my bet on the American worker, and I'll make that bet any day of the week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Despite his critics, President Obama says since the bailout, the entire auto industry has added more than 200,000 new jobs over the past two and a half years.

More than 7,500 Syrians have been killed in the nearly one-year revolt against Syrian president Bashar al Assad. That's the latest word from the united nations today. And the slaughter just keeps continuing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE.)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Opposition groups say at least 60 people have been killed so far just today. Many of them in the opposition stronghold of Homs. Among the dead, three women, two children. Yesterday, it was even more deadly, 144 people were reported killed across the country.

And on Capitol Hill today, secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, denounced Assad's year-long assault on his own people, saying that he could be tried for war crimes. However, the secretary said that pursuing charges against Assad could hinder efforts to persuade him to simply just step down.

An Italian cruise ship disabled in the Indian Ocean with 636 passengers on board is now being towed by a fishing vessel to the Seychelles. Assisting in the rescue, a Seychelles Coast Guard ship and two tug boats who are navigating this ship through pirate-infested waters. A fire knocked out the engine of the Costa Allegra yesterday, and if that name sounds a bit familiar, it's because it is the sister ship of this one, the Costa Concordia, which you'll remember ran aground and capsized off the Italian coast last month.

In Japan, a rare visit to the Fukushima Nuclear Plant. We want you to be able to take a look at some pictures we have exclusively. CNN is the only U.S. network permitted to tour the plant nearly one year after the triple meltdown. Look at those pictures. You'll recall that happened after the region was hit by a massive earthquake and a tsunami. Here's CNN's Kyung Lah just after she arrived at the plant.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KYUNG LAH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is our first look on the ground at the reactors. This is the heart of the nuclear problem in Japan. What you're seeing over my shoulder are the reactors. There are four of them. The two that you see over my right shoulder, those are two of the reactors that exploded in the early days of this disaster.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: An army of 3,000 workers is now working around the clock to try to control the melted nuclear fuel and also contain the further spread of radiation there.

And still with our developing story in Ohio today, the shooting at Chardon High School near Cleveland, three of the students are now dead and two are in the hospital, as the tragedy has many people wondering, is there anything that can be done to protect kids from a rogue teenage shooter? We're going to talk to a school security expert, coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: The shootings in Chardon bring back some pretty terrible memories. December 1997, a 14-year-old boy kills three classmates and wounds five at a high school prayer meeting in west Paducah, Kentucky.

In March, 1998, two boys, 11 and 13, kill four girls and a teacher outside a middle school in Jonesboro, Arkansas. Just two months later, May 1998, a 15-year-old boy kills two students, one day after being suspended for bringing a gun to school. And of course, April 1999, Columbine. Eric Harris and Derek Klebold killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded dozens more before killing themselves.

Since then, teachers, administrators, first responders all have had to learn about how to keep schools safer. And my guest is coming up now has done much of that teaching. Ken Trump is the president of National School Safety and Security Services, a private consulting firm based in Cleveland. And he comes to us today from Chardon.

Mr. Trump, thanks so much for being with us, and I'm sorry that it has to be under these circumstances. I've been watching some of the video of these kids running for their lives. I've been listening to their comments, saying that they thought that it might just be another one of the drills that they do so often. Do you think, sir, that this actually might have been a much, much worse story today, but for the kinds of procedures that have been put in place since those other stories have all played out?

KEN TRUMP, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL SCHOOL SAFETY AND SECURITY SERVICES: Ashleigh, it's unfortunate that we have to say that we have a textbook response to school emergency situations and school shootings, but we do have one. And they followed to it a tee, from what we can tell here in Chardon, Ohio. We look at situations with mass parent notification systems, lockdowns, evacuation at the appropriate time, having a site, an elementary school designated to reunite parents and their students, law enforcement response.

This afternoon, I talked with the sheriff's spokesperson who said that they had done active shooter training here three years ago with a regional SWAT team. These are all things that we've talked with school officials about, in the past 13 years, especially after Columbine, and by all accounts, they followed that yesterday.

BANFIELD: Well, it's just awful to have to read a list that I did while introducing you, and that was just a snapshot of some of the worst ones. My question to you is are we getting any better at this? Are there fewer school shootings? Are there more school shootings? Where do we stand?

TRUMP: Well, the good news is schools are actually getting better at preventing these incidents. The bad news is we still see incidents slipping through the cracks. School officials are better trained today, but we have some new challenges. One, for example, is social media. Right after Columbine, we talked about training students to report incidents, threats, concerns that they heard in the hallways and the cafeteria.

And the challenge today, Ashleigh, is how do we police the Internet? How do we police Facebook and Twitter and get those early warning signs there? The things that used to be said in the cafeteria that are now being said out in cyberspace somewhere. So, there are some new challenges, but I think that, still, the first and best line of defense is a well-trained, highly alert staff and student body. And it's the relationships with kids that's going to come through to determine if we can continue to prevent these incidents. Unfortunately, some are going to slip through the cracks.

BANFIELD: And let me ask you about one of the -- one of the staff members who's really being considered a hero, his name is Frank Hall, he's the assistant football coach. Apparently, if the story is correct, he was able to somehow usher this student out of the school before any further shootings could happen and that student was then arrested.

While that is incredible and heroic and thank God there were no other kids shot, is that the kind of thing that teachers should be doing? I recall a story in Florida where Barry Grunow, a teacher, confronted Nathaniel Brazill and was shot dead because he did so.

TRUMP: I've worked with schools across the country from all 50 states and I've talked with teachers who have not had to think twice to take a gun out of the hands of a child. It's not something that we can train for. This is something that's in their heart, in the body, in who these teachers are. They care about their kids. During the course of the day, those are their kids, in (INAUDIBLE), in place of the parents. And teachers take that to heart.

We've seen time and time again across the country, I've worked in a school where a kid brought a tree saw and a machete and attacked students and an assistant principal chased him down the hallway, tackled him. And had it not been but a couple of inches in a different direction, that machete would have gone into his head. Our teachers are truly heroes. But they also don't look at themselves as that. They look at it as just doing their jobs and caring for their kids.

BANFIELD: Well, Ken Trump, it's good to talk to you, and I'm sorry it's about this topic, but it's good that you do the work that you do. Thanks for being with us today.

TRUMP: Thank you, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: And still ahead today, you pay for your kid's cell phone, but did you know that you may not be able to access their text messages? Not without a court order, anyway. One state is hoping to change that and we're going to talk to the state senator who's behind the bill to do so, but is there a catch? That's all coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: You only have your kids' best interests at heart, right, their safety? But just try to take a look at their text messages and you might need a subpoena. I'm not kidding. You think it'd be as easy as grabbing their phones, taking a peek through. But we've got to hand it to the kids, they're pretty stealth, pretty crafty, tech savvy and they know where the delete button is, folks.

So you call your cell phone company. You think you're smarter than they are. You ask for a record of your kids' texts, especially because you're the one paying the bill, right, it's under your name. Yes, I've got news for you, you probably need a court order to get access to your child's text messages. I'm not kidding.

But one lawmaker in Arizona doesn't like that one bit and is pushing to change that. He's proposing a law that would require cell phone companies to give parents access to their children's texts, if they want it. Even if it has to cost them a little money to do so. If the bill's approved, it would likely be the very first in the nation. Arizona State Senator Rich Crandall is the lawmaker who's proposing more open access for parents, and he joins us live from Phoenix.

It's good to have you with us, senator. Let me just ask you right off the bat. It sounds like an awesome idea. And I'm the parent of a six- year-old who is soon to be a texter, I'm sure. But methinks there's got to be a catch here. Is there?

RICH CRANDALL, ARIZONA STATE SENATE: Well, it's a challenge. The big four have -- are really putting up a fight on this. So it's interesting to see where we go from here.

BANFIELD: So here's the -- maybe I buried the lead on you. You have six daughters and a son. So you have seven kids. So clearly you know what you're up against with the texting. But there's also that pesky little thing called federal law. And federal law tells us that we just can't have that kind of access unless we're the creators of the content, right? So how are you going to get this bill to pass muster when the feds will be coming down to crack down on the issue of, you know, privacy and that sort of thing?

CRANDALL: You bet. You know, Ashleigh, let me give you -- just a little bit -- a brief background. In our education committee that I chair here in the senate, we've been talking about bullying, and specifically we started talking about cyber bullying. It's a big issue as we're seeing, and the folks in Ohio are learning also.

And so my wife happened to be at the Verizon store with one of my daughters and just casually mentioned to the clerk, hey, what if I want to see my daughter's text? And this clerk said, well, you know, you'd have to have a court order to make that happen. As we were talking over dinner that night, we thought, that's not right that the federal government should tell parents you don't have a right to look at your children's texts, even if you're the one paying the bill.

So we had the attorneys start looking into it. And one thing that we're finding is that it's really not black and white as people may thing. It's very much a gray area, what the federal law is. So we decided to move forward with a bill and we're receiving tremendous support nationwide from parent all over the place. It's incredible.

BANFIELD: And I know while parents probably aren't going to like to hear this, I know I'll probably be one of them at some point, and I know with your seven children you may be. The Supreme Court has hashed over at length the issue of the right to privacy and the reasonable expectation of privacy. And that constitutional thing applies to all of us, whether we're minors or whether we're parents. Don't you see an issue here whereby kids could have a reasonable expectation of privacy when they're texting?

CRANDALL: It depends what your role is as a parent. Does my 12-year- old with a cell phone have a right to privacy? But more -- I'm more concerned about the opportunity for someone to bully one of my children and for me to be able to intervene as a parent before something drastic should happen.

BANFIELD: So here's the thing. I got to thinking, if it's hard for us to get these text messages from the cell phone companies for our kids, can we get them for ourselves? Like could I call Verizon and say, hey, I think I've sent something I regret. I really need to re-read it.

CRANDALL: That -- what a great question. And I am not sure most people in the U.S. realize that if you want to see your own text messages, you also have to have a court order. And our legislation here, we're only talking about minor children for this legislation. And it tells the big four, hey, you don't need to change any of your practices, any of your procedures. Just that when I approach and ask for this, I don't have to have a court order. If you're one of the big companies that doesn't even keep text messages on your server, you don't need to begin keeping them now should this bill pass.

BANFIELD: Well, then that's the other question, because I've covered a lot of criminal cases whereby, you know, the evidence may have been there, but the cell phone company just cannot give the pros of the text. They can give the numbers going back and forth, but they can't give the actual content. So you're not suggesting for a moment that all of these big cell phone companies have to start changing their standards and practices and start keeping huge vaults of data, are you? CRANDALL: Not in the least. And I do want to give a -- you know, I'm impressed, Verizon says, hey, if you want to know what the phone number is of texts sent or received, you can simply go online and access that right now for no cost. Verizon told me, as we were going through the bill, they keep the text messages for three days and then they purge them. That makes a lot of sense depending on -- based on the volume of text messages that are sent, day in, day out. But if I want to see those three days' worth of text messages, it may take me two days just to get a court order.

BANFIELD: Well, I should have that same policy, because my data is just -- just cramming up on all my devices. I should have the three- day rule.

Senator, it's good of you to join us to talk to us and I hope you'll let us know how you do with this legislation. And if you do pass muster, how you do on the first challenge to it. It should be interesting.

CRANDALL: I look forward to talking to you again about the bill. Thank you.

BANFIELD: Thanks so much. It's good to see you.

And coming up next, we're going to take you back to our top story. We've had a number of developments in the Ohio school shooting development. It certainly does bring back the memories of that tragedy day at Columbine. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold became household names after they opened fire, sending children literally running for their lives. Coming up, the author of the book, the definitive book, "Columbine," Dave Cullen, with some surprising information on why we can or cannot profile the kids who turn out to be killers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: As we've reported, a third student has now died from yesterday's school shooting in Ohio. And for many of us, wherever there's a school shooting, we immediately recall the massacre at Columbine High School. On April 20, 1999, two students went on a rampage killing 13 people and themselves at the school in Littleton, Colorado. That cold-blooded attack altered forever the way government officials, teachers, and parents view students, especially those who might be considered to be troubled in any way.

Dave Cullen spent 10 years researching and writing "The New York Times" bestseller "Columbine," and he's here with me now as we try to dig into this.

Dave, thanks for being with us. You were the first person I thought of, and this book is really the definitive guide for anybody who wants to get some kind of an insight, not just on Columbine, but on this horrible trend, I hate to say, but we've certainly had a lot of them. We instinctively want to profile these kids.

DAVE CULLEN, AUTHOR, "COLUMBINE": Right. BANFIELD: We want to somehow brush them with a similar stroke. Something that will make us feel like maybe we can get ahead of this. Is that not doable?

CULLEN: It's not. There were two definitive studies done after Columbine. One by the FBI, one by the Secret Service. Both exhaustive, really amazing studies. They both came to a lot of the same conclusions. One of which was, I believe the quote was, there is no useful or accurate profile of the shooters. It doesn't exist.

There are certain characteristics they have in common. Most of them surprise people. They're not outcasts. They're not loners. They're not -- most of -- very few are insane or mentally ill. They're not what they think -- what we think they are. But they do have certain characteristics.

BANFIELD: So I remember, from 1999 on, many of us thought that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were the trench coat mafia and they were all these things. And your book has really been the definitive proof that we just had it wrong.

CULLEN: We really had it wrong. And my book summarized and put all these things together and I've been reporting it for a long time. But all of the reporters who worked on the story realized after a while that we had it wrong. And most of the major papers all did story about the myths and correcting it.

But the story really never got out to the public that we had it wrong. But everybody, I'm sorry, you know, in our business realized we really messed that up. It wasn't about jobs, it wasn't about the trench-coat mafia, it wasn't about targeting anyone. There is very little evidence that they were actually bullied and, if so, it had anything too with their motives. All that stuff is wrong.

BANFIELD: That's why this is so critical. Obviously, the information is fast and furious because this has just transpired, you know, 24 hours ago. And we're hearing some of the same things. That, you know, this young man was a good kid, a nice kid, sure liked him a lot, somewhat quiet, a bit troubled in his past. I remember you saying something along the lines of Dylan and Eric were honors kids, worked in a pizzeria, well liked by their friends. That sounds like there's a similar profile. So where should I assume that there's divergence?

CULLEN: Right. Well, first of all, with Eric and Dylan, they were completely different. And they had certain things in common, but they were radically different from each other. Some of the indications we're getting so far is that this boy in Ohio might be more similar, if anything, to Dylan. A lot of people, the people who knew him, that I've been hearing the last day and a half, talking about being very sad all the time, possibly depressed. Most of the school shooters were depressed. Something ridiculously high, like two-thirds of them had either contemplated or attempted suicide before. So you've got a lot of depressive kids. A

And, yes, the two overwhelming traits -- well, in the Secret Service study, the period, in 25 years, they looked at, 100 percent were boys. And occasionally there are females, but very, very rarely. It's almost always boys. The other thing that was overwhelming was that 98 percent had experience what had they perceived as either a major failure or loss. In --

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Like a girlfriend or a test score or something?

CULLEN: Yes, exactly. Getting fired from the job or just a socially humiliating situation. It could be bullying. It could be something that everybody else saw as minor, but for them it felt traumatic, they felt like they lost face. So what we're really talking about is sort of a blow to the ego, where they feel --

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Their world is crashing down.

CULLEN: Yes. Yes, it is.

BANFIELD: So how many of these kids -- and I know it's hard to brush them from all the same stroke, but for the most part, how many of these kids say something to anyone before they go ahead and kill their friends?

CULLEN: OK, thank you. That is so crucial. I've got all these numbers in my head. I believe it's 81 percent. It's the overwhelming majority.

BANFIELD: Holy cow.

CULLEN: And we're not talking about warning signs or hints. We're talking about coming right out and explicitly saying, they're going to kill people. And I believe it's 67 percent who tell more than one person. And --

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Adults?

CULLEN: No, no. Well, that's the catch. It's almost never adults. It's something like -- it was 93 -- I just looked at these quotes before -- numbers. 93 percent of the time, it's a peer. Usually, a friend of theirs, sometimes a sibling, almost never an adult. And that's why it's crucial for us to be able to get an environment where can kids feel comfortable telling the adults.

BANFIELD: Listen, I've got 30 seconds left, but there's something in your newest paperback that a lot of people don't know about, and would want to know about, that the parents of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold have had meetings, four different meetings. They parents have secretly gotten together and talked.

CULLEN: Yes. Yes.

BANFIELD: Do you know anything about that, what they said, what they did?

CULLEN: Yes, I do. In the afterword of the book -- I thought of that after the book came out, so for the paperback edition, it's in there, and I did a piece on "The Daily Beast" too. But the Harris parents definitely believe that Eric was a psychopath, which is -- which is not what most people think, but that's what the FBI thinks. And the Klebolds, god, they're just going through -- both sets of parents, they're going through such misery. They're having a really tough time too. I feel for them.

BANFIELD: It's hard for people who feel as though there are so many other parents out there who are grieving the loss of their children because of murder, to deal with those other parents who are dealing with their children's suicides or murders or lifetime incarceration.

CULLEN: And it's terrible for -- obviously, I feel for the survivors, but the parents, too.

BANFIELD: This book is great.

CULLEN: Thank you.

BANFIELD: You did a great job. 10 years of reporting. It is great and I highly encourage anyone who wants to know the definitive reporting on Columbine, get it and go fast.

Dave Cullen, thanks for much for being here.

CULLEN: Thank you, Ashleigh. Pleasure being here.

BANFIELD: I wish it was under better circumstances.

CULLEN: I do, too. I know.

BANFIELD: And coming up, we'll return to our other very big story of the day, it is vote day. But is Rick Santorum a vote for President Obama? You heard me. That's Mitt Romney's latest message after a series of robo calls encourages Democrats, Democrats, to come out and vote for Rick Santorum. What the? What the? Coming up. Mad scramble. We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Time now for "Fair Game." And that is exactly what Michigan is right now. "Fair Game" in the Republican presidential race, anyway. It's really boiled down to a two-man race between Rick Santorum and Mitt Romney. And remember, this is Mitt Romney's home state. He was born here, dad was governor here. And no candidate in the last quarter century has won the nomination without first winning his home primary. Uh, no pressure.

So joining me now, Gentry Collins, former national political director for the Republican National Committee. And also on board is Democratic political consultant, Ed Espinoza. All right, guys, I want to talk about mischief. Because that seems to be a big story today. And here's how the mischief has been playing out. Rick Santorum has been sending out robo calls to Democrats, saying, vote for me and let's sink this guy, Mitt Romney. Have a listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO FEED)

ROBO CALLER: On Tuesday, join Democrats who are going to send a loud message to Massachusetts Mitt Romney by voting for Rick Santorum for president. This call is supported by hard-working Democratic men and women and paid for by Rick Santorum for President.

(END AUDIO FEED)

BANFIELD: Paid for by Rick Santorum for President.

Now, for a very different reason another guy is also sending out robo calls, and he is also sending out robo calls to Democrats. His name is Joe Disano, and he's doing it because he wants Rick Santorum to win, because he thinks Mitt Romney is harder for President Obama to beat. So listen to his robo call.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE DISANO, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: We've got to Republican candidates for president who I feel are both damaged goods. Hopefully, my efforts, and the efforts tomorrow in the state to turn this election over to Romney -- or, excuse me, over to Santorum, will throw an anvil in Romney's lap and cause havoc all the way to the Republican convention in Orlando.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Yes. He does like a video robo call. I'm kidding. He was explaining his robo call there.

But nonetheless, the robo call is going out with the same name on it, vote for Rick Santorum.

Let me throw it to you, Gentry. Is this just a win-win for Rick Santorum, no matter what the motives are behind those robo calls?

GENTRY COLLINS, FORMER NATIONAL POLITICAL DIRECTOR, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: It may be a win-lose for Rick Santorum. If he can pull Michigan out later this afternoon, that's obviously a big win and a big boost for his campaign. But clearly, this race has become a long-term delegate fight. And under any set of circumstances tonight, Mitt Romney will probably get three-quarters of the delegates awarded between the two states in play tonight to Rick Santorum's one-quarter.

And now that this narrative has emerged that started with President Obama and his campaign running ads against Mitt Romney in Michigan a week or two ago and now this activity, I think in the March 6th dates, Rick Santorum may have some trouble with Republicans in those states down the road who don't like these kind of tactics. BANFIELD: Well, with Mitt Romney's been out on the stump today. And he wasn't too keen on the idea of like robo calls coming from all angles against him. Here's what he had to say while he was touring amongst his own. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITT ROMNEY (R), FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You were making calls to Republicans today. This is a good thing, all right?

(APPLAUSE)

ROMNEY: Yes. Yes. And the Santorum campaign is making calls to Democrats today, all right?

(BOOING)

ROMNEY: So we want to make sure we get Republicans out to vote. We want this to be a process where Republicans choose a Republican nominee. We don't want the Democrats to choose who they think is the easiest person to run against. So you guys, let's get the calls done and get Republicans out to vote.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER)

BANFIELD: Hey, Espinoza, do you think that Romney should actually be worried about this? That Democrats could make a big difference in his effort to close that gap and win his home state?

ED ESPINOZA, DEMOCRATIC POLITICAL CONSULTANT: Well, what he should be worried about is the fact that it's his home state and it's even this close in the first place. These are arguably voters who know him the best. And if the people who know him the best are lukewarm on him, that doesn't send a good message to voters in primary states on Super Tuesday or any other contest after this.

BANFIELD: But, again, do you think the Democrats might actually make a difference here?

(LAUGHTER)

ESPINOZA: I mean, they could. The race is really close, and you know, politics makes for strange bedfellows. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. And in this case, Santorum voters and Democratic voters have something in common, and if neither one of them are too hot on Mitt Romney, they might have different reasons for thinking that, but in this instance, they're of the same mind. So, yes, he could lose because a couple of Democrats cross over.

(CROSSTALK)

ESPINOZA: It's very similar to the Indiana primary in 2008. BANFIELD: And you know what, it's similar to a lot of other races too. Texas, Michigan. They've all played in before, and both parties have been at this. They actually call it party crashing. It's something that is done by both sides, and everybody complains when it's done to them.

Hey, Gentry and Ed, it's nice to see you guys. Thanks very much. I can't wait to see what happens tonight. It's a barn burner.

And remember, everyone, make sure you tune in to CNN tonight for our special coverage of the Arizona and Michigan primaries. It all starts tonight, 6:00 p.m. eastern. Pop your popcorn. Get your kids. It's great watching.

He is criticized for his extraordinarily tough stance on illegal immigration, but Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio ain't concerned the least about the controversy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE ARPAIO, SHERIFF, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA: You think I'm afraid that you're going to blast me? Go ahead and blast me. Actually, you help me. Every time they blast me, my polls go up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Aha. So now Republicans are waiting with baited breath a presidential endorsement. Can he help or hurt today's primary races? Our own Suzanne Malveaux spoke to him and she's here live, and I'm here live, so we're going to talk live, right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: He calls himself the toughest sheriff in America, Sheriff Joe Arpaio. He's made headlines and built a tough-as-nails reputation for being outspoken and for being real, real controversial. The Arizona and Michigan primaries are well underway right now, and there's a lot on the line, especially in Arpaio's state, Arizona. It is winner-take-all there, folks. A whole lot of delegates upper for grabs. And sheriff Arpaio's coveted endorsement could make a big difference for GOP candidates.

Our Suzanne Malveaux caught up with the sheriff and spoke one on one with him. She's joins us now. She's at her post, live in Phoenix, where there's probably some of the nicest weather in the country right now. But, I digress.

Suzanne, everybody says this guy's the kingmaker in Arizona. Is he going to be crowning anybody before everybody finishes going to the polls today?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ashleigh, he's playing it kind of coy at this moment. But we want to remind people just who this sheriff is, because he is an international character. We caught up with him at an art fair in Phoenix, and essentially signing the infamous pink underwear and handcuffs made famous by his own policies regarding inmates under his care, the banned coffee, porn, cigarettes, even salt and pepper from their diets, saving the taxpayers some $20,000 a year.

So he's a popular guy. He's seen as somebody who is tough on criminals, tough on crime. Also very much a tough one when it comes to illegal immigration. He is highly controversial.

Who would benefit from his endorsement? You would think it would be Mitt Romney. That's the guy who he backed up back in 2008. Not so fast. He is not signing on anybody just quite yet. But Ashleigh, as you mentioned, nearly everyone has come here to kiss the ring.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARPAIO: Michele Bachmann, Herman Cain, and of course, Perry. I campaigned for him in Iowa.

MALVEAUX: Everybody's come to you, they need your support, they want your support. Are you going to give it before the Tuesday primary?

ARPAIO: No.

MALVEAUX: No?

ARPAIO: No.

MALVEAUX: Not even a hint?

ARPAIO: Nope.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: Ashleigh, he did back Rick Perry. He says Rick Perry was the only one that was actually doing anything about the border before Rick Perry dropped out. Right now, he does not want to say before the primary. But I should also let you know as well, this could be an endorsement, obviously important to these candidates, but could complete backfire as well when it comes to how they look regarding the Hispanic community.

The Justice Department says that Arpaio is -- accuses him of egregious, egregious racial profiling in the state of Arizona. We talked to a lot of Hispanic voters who agree that they are stopped, they are pulled over and arrested for no cause. So it is a very controversial endorsement, whoever gets that endorsement, in the next couple of days -- Ashleigh?

BANFIELD: And it is a love/hate relationship, for sure. But I may have buried the lead. You said he was in an art show. Sheriff Joe at an art show. There's the headline right there, Suzanne.

(LAUGHTER)

MALVEAUX: Signing and selling the books and the underwear. That is what he was doing at the art show.

BANFIELD: I love it.

Suzanne Malveaux, live in Phoenix for us. Thanks for that. Appreciate it.

The polls are open in Michigan and Arizona right now. Votes being cast as we speak. But there are certainly more than delegates at stake for the GOP candidates.

And that is where Mr. Wolf Blitzer comes in, the expert in all things politics. He's going to tell us what we can expect from these highly anticipated primaries.

I am looking forward to it, sir.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Elizabeth Cohen in Atlanta, with breaking news from the Food and Drug Administration. The FDA is telling the 32 million Americans who take statins that they've been receiving reports that people on statins have sometimes been experiencing confusion and memory loss.

It's a very small number of people, but they want statin users to know. They also want them to know there may be an increased risk of getting Type 2 diabetes if you're on statin. Don't immediately go off your statins when you hear me saying this. Instead, talk to your doctor. These drugs save lives. The side effects are quite rare, if at all. After this break, we'll have more on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Voters in Michigan and Arizona are making their choices today voting in the Republican primaries.

Joining me now is Wolf Blitzer, anchor of the "The Situation Room." We like to consider him the ringmaster for CNN's expanded coverage of the primaries. He's in the CNN Center in Atlanta.

Wolf, you got your boogie shoes on? You getting ready for the 6:00 p.m. tonight?

WOLF BLITZER, HOST, THE SITUATION ROOM: We're ready to go. I go on the air at 4:00 p.m. eastern, and we'll be on until midnight or maybe longer. This could be a long, long night, because these polls in Michigan, as you know, Ashleigh, they show a very, very tight race, so we might not be able to make a projection for a few hours until we see what's going on.

BANFIELD: I keep thinking it's the barn burner, so I'm popping popcorn getting ready. Here's the real thing. Pundits are saying, whoa, if Mitt Romney doesn't get Michigan, he's in real trouble, but isn't Arizona a bigger catch because it's winner-take-all and it's 29 delegates as opposed to the 30 up in Michigan that are proportionally allotted? BLITZER: Romney is in much better shape in Arizona than he is apparently in Michigan if you believe all the polls. In Arizona, if looks like he's in relatively good shape. Michigan is very tight with Rick Santorum.

You make a good point about the delegates. But political moment is certainly something people will be looking for. If he loses in his home state, even if he loses only by a few thousand or maybe he winds up getting more delegates, but if he loses that popular vote in Michigan, Ashleigh, it's a huge, huge setback for Mitt Romney. It's a big win for Rick Santorum, going into the contests on Super Tuesday. Yes, you're right, the delegate issue is very, very important, but that momentum in terms inspiring people to raise money, to go out and do the work you need to get the nomination, that's going to be very important.

BANFIELD: The math versus the momentum. So President Obama was out today, and he took the opportunity, I guess, to dog Mitt Romney on his big day in Michigan. Have a listen to this, Wolf.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: At G.M.'s plant in Detroit --

(APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: -- where I got to get inside a brand new Chevy Volt fresh off the line, even though Secret Service wouldn't let me drive it.

(LAUGHTER)

But I like sitting in it.

(LAUGHTER)

It was nice.

(LAUGHTER)

I'll bet it drives real good.

(LAUGHTER)

And five years from now, when I'm not president anymore, I'll buy one and drive it myself.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: OK, so that wasn't the one that I was actually referring to. The dogging part, Wolf, came from the president when he suggested that he would do that bailout and wouldn't let Detroit go bankrupt, which was a direct slam on what Mitt Romney had said in the past. And I'm sort of curious whether Michiganders still has that burning in their ears as they go to the polls, about what Mitt Romney said about letting them fail.

BLITZER: I think it's going to hurt with all the voters out there. Not tonight, but certainly if he were to get the nomination in November. The polls show a hypothetical head-to-head in Michigan, which is an important state with a lot of Electoral College votes, the president would do really, really well against Romney or any other Republican candidates, for that matter. It might take Michigan out of the equation because the president is credited with a lot of workers in Michigan, not just working with the auto industry, but indirectly in some of the supply industry as well with saving a lot of jobs. So he's looking, the president, as if he's in pretty good shape in Michigan right now.

BANFIELD: All right, Wolf Blitzer, I'm looking forward to all your coverage. I'll be watching, along with millions and millions of others. Thanks for that.

BLITZER: We may be on the -- we may be on the air and I'll be throwing to you at 5:00 a.m. You --

BANFIELD: I was just going to say, you can be live at 5:00 with me tomorrow.

BLITZER: It's possible. That's possible.

BANFIELD: You just booked yourself on the show, my friend. Wolf Blitzer live in Atlanta for us.

And CNN NEWSROOM continues now with my colleague, Brooke Baldwin.

Hello, Brooke.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: I don't know about that 5:00 a.m., because I'll be right up there with Wolf Blitzer tonight doing social media. So we'll see about that, Ashleigh Banfield. Maybe we'll see you at 5:00 a.m.

BANFIELD: All right.

BALDWIN: Meantime, thank you so much.