Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

President Obama Comments on Healthcare Debate; Widows of Bin Laden Going to Jail?; JetBlue Captain Attends Court; Alleged Lotto Winner may Face Legal Battle; Morning Talk Show Wars Heat Up

Aired April 02, 2012 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: And it is the top of the hour. I'm Ashleigh Banfield in for Brooke Baldwin.

And here's the news. President Obama said it would be extraordinary if the Supreme Court overturned his health care law. Also Osama bin Laden's widows are going to jail. And the national average gas price is dangerously close to a record. It is time to play "Reporter Roulette."

And we begin with Brianna Keilar at the White House.

Brianna, the president just wrapped up a lengthy news conference with the leaders of Mexico and Canada and the topics went right from oil to health care. But the president certainly made some news talking about health care.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

He was asked about what would happen if the Supreme Court were to overturn his health care reform law 5-4 and he said it would be an unprecedented and extraordinary move if the court was to do that for a law that as he put it was approved by a strong majority in a democratically elected body. Here's some of what he said just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Ultimately, I'm confident that the Supreme Court will not take what would be an unprecedented, extraordinary step of overturning a law that was passed by a strong majority of a democratically elected Congress. And I would just remind conservative commentators that for years what we've heard is the biggest problem on the bench was judicial activism or a lack of judicial restraint, that an unelected group of people would somehow overturn a duly constituted and passed law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: So as you can see, Ashleigh, he's basically saying there that if the Supreme Court were to overturn this signature law of his, that he would sort of see it as a political move and that especially since we're expecting this decision here come June, that this is something that obviously he would be talking about going into his election. And this gives us a glimpse as to how he would frame such a decision by the Supreme Court.

BANFIELD: OK. Brianna Keilar at the White House for us, thank you so much.

And next on "Reporter Roulette" Nick Paton Walsh with details on the sentences that came down today for the widows of Osama bin Laden.

It's sounding a little like a slap on the wrist, Nick.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely.

Sentencing, not really -- they are made to stay in the fairly nice house they have been living in central Islamabad for two more weeks before being sent back to their home countries, Yemen in the case of one of them, the two Saudis may not go back to Saudi Arabia. Unclear what kind of welcome they will get here.

Many people questioning why is it the only people to be sentenced in connection with the America's most wanted man hiding out in Pakistan it seems for nearly a decade are these two sort of reasonably innocent accessories to his time there, his wives, his daughters, age 17 and 21 also to be sent back to their home countries as well, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: So one of the depositions that was given finally gave a little color and a little life to what bin Laden has been doing while he has been in hiding this last decade. Tell me about some of the accounts that came out of that depo.

WALSH: This is based on the testimony of one of his wives, two police, U.S. officials saying they have little reason to doubt much of it. But it's really more fascinating in fact for the sheer length of time bin Laden spent ducking around Pakistan.

Appears to -- his family appeared to have scattered just after the 9/11 attacks at which point his wife said she didn't see him for a while until they were reunited in Peshawar, that's a city on the border with Afghanistan and Pakistan.

He then moved around some cities in the north. In one of them he had two children by his wives before settling in Abbottabad, where Navy SEALs caught up with him there. He had another two children as well. Real questions here beginning to emerge as to exactly how much complicity was there from Pakistani citizens, even Pakistani officials, something Islamabad has furiously denied.

But, really, as the Pakistanis seek to erase all memory of Osama bin Laden's presence there, destroying the house where he stayed and sending these women out of the country, these questions continue to mount, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Nick Paton Walsh live for us in Kabul, thanks very much.

(STOCK MARKET UPDATE)

BANFIELD: And that is today's "Reporter Roulette."

Coming up, Tyler Perry writes candidly about a recent traffic stop during which he said police officers profiled him. But at the end, Perry mentions an unsolved mystery, including two men picked up by a police officer, but never seen or heard from again. I will speak with the investigator about that mysterious case.

Plus, we're getting some new details on our breaking news out of Oakland, California. Reports of a shooting at a religious school with several victims. Stay right there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: We want to get you some more breaking news information out of the East Oakland, California. That's where a shooting involving multiple victims took place at a religious university called Oikos University. One of the police officials is on the scene live updating us. Let's listen in.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That area right now, we have medical personnel, we have our officers as well as our SWAT Team has arrived. They are still evacuating any possible injured or students from this college. This is still a very active and fluid situation. I will update you as events unfold.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I cannot confirm that we have arrested anyone in regards to this shooting today.

QUESTION: Is the gunman inside?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is unknown right now. Our SWAT team is conducting evacuations. Our priority is evacuations first. If anyone needs medical attention, that's a priority.

And then we will go in and conduct a security check of the interior of the building. It's unknown if the gunman is still inside or if the gunman fled before police arrival.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's unknown at that time.

I know that officers are talking to witnesses, trying to gather as much information. Again, this is a very tense situation for everyone. At the same time, we do have SWAT, our officers are on scene. We have secured the area and our priority right now is to take care of the injured, make sure they receive medical attention and also locate the person responsible for this.

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: Do they know the shooter? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's unknown at this time. We're interviewing the witnesses right now and trying to determine if this person is known to them. It's still very early on.

Again, right now, our priority is to take care of the injured and make sure the area is secure for everyone.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is likely. We do not have the shooter. The shooter is still at large. And that's one of the priorities that we're looking at. We want to make sure that the shooter, we catch him as soon as possible. If anyone has any information, contact the Oakland Police Department. Any information will be very helpful.

BANFIELD: As that officer just walks away, that was such an unexpected briefing.

But let me recap for you what she told us. They're still evaluating the injured on the scene and trying to evacuate them from the building that is on your screen. At this point, two conflicting messages from that official, number one, that they have secured the area, but number two that they still have to secure the building.

But she says the priority at this point is to deal with the injured. Medical attention is the priority and then clearing the building is the priority because they have not actually arrested or caught up with this shooter. They said that they're interviewing the witnesses to find out if the shooter was, in fact, known to the students or the victims, but they don't have any clarification on that yet.

They believe that that shooter is still in the area of this college. As you can see, stretchers being taken from that building and likely to the waiting ambulances. There was call earlier for five different ambulances. At this point, though the gunman's location is unknown.

A very tense situation to quote the officer who was speaking just at the last moment. We will keep an eye on this in East Oakland, California, at the Oikos University as a shooter went on a rampage. There are multiple victims. Very little else is known at this time.

In other top news, racial profiling should be a hate crime investigated by the FBI and that's a quote. It's from TV mogul Tyler Perry in a Facebook post that's been liked more than 100,000 times and has spurred thousands of shares and comments.

In it, Tyler Perry describes a very tense run-in with two Atlanta police officers that he had last month. He says he was pulled over for allegedly making an illegal turn. Perry says he told the officer he "signaled" to get into the turning lane and then made the turn because he wanted to be sure he wasn't being followed.

He said it wasn't until a third African-American officer arrived on the scene that the situation was defused. Perry then makes an apparent reference to the killing of Florida teenager Trayvon Martin, writing this. "I'm not sure how a murder in Florida can be protected by a stand your ground law."

He also writes that he's been "screaming at the top of his lungs" about the disappearances of two Florida men, Terrance Williams and Felipe Santos. Williams is black, Santos is Mexican. Both men vanished under similar circumstances more than eight years ago after being arrested by the same deputy, a former deputy named Steven Calkins.

Their disappearances are unsolved to this day and no one has been charged in this case, including that officer.

Joining us now by phone to talk about the case is Don Hunter. He was the sheriff in Naples, Florida, when the two men disappeared. He's now the police chief in Marco Island.

Chief Hunter, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us about this.

It is just uncanny, the similarities in the disappearances of these two men. They were both picked up by the same officer and both of them were never seen again. And the officer has the same story: I dropped them off at a convenience store.

Where does this case, both of these cases, where do these stand?

DON HUNTER, MARCO ISLAND POLICE CHIEF: Well, first of all, thank you, Ashleigh, for having me on and for the opportunity to speak.

Numerous problems with both cases. The officer, although the broad story that he told us at the time had some consistency, there were so many inconsistencies in his testimony to me and the internal affairs investigation that ultimately he was removed from office, fired in the vernacular of your viewers.

BANFIELD: That still doesn't make a lot of sense. It sounds to me like it would be intuitively obvious that someone who did that would be fired.

You are picked up from a scene, you're taken off in a squad car and you're just dumped out a Circle K? What about being charged? Or what about being investigated. What kind of evidence exists for some kind of probable cause to bring him in and arrest him?

HUNTER: Right.

Well, first of all, two different convenience stores were allegedly used to drop the individuals off. I think it would be important for your viewers to know that I immediately engaged the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the U.S. attorney's office of our circuit to become involved with this case for review of all the evidence and of all the statements that had been made.

We simply could not determine that this particular Deputy Sheriff Calkins had involvement in any criminal activity. What we have still to this day are two missing persons cases. One is Hispanic, a Mexican national. The other man is an African-American.

But no proof could be had pertaining to Calkins involved in any criminal activity. We simply have two missing persons that remain missing.

BANFIELD: So what about the story that Deputy Calkins told everyone, that he had picked these two individuals up at separate scenes and then ultimately dropped them at what you mentioned were two different Circle K convenience stores? They usually have surveillance video at these stores. What sort of investigation was done to find out if he was actually telling the truth?

HUNTER: Yes.

Not only did we attempt to get the video evidence of any activity Mr. Calkins alleges at the two different convenience stores.

And I would add that in the state of Florida, convenience stores are required to have video. Unfortunately, they do not keep them in good repair always. We did not have anything to rely upon in terms of video evidence that he Mr. Calkins visited those two convenience stores or dropped anyone at those convenience stores.

He alleges, if I recall correctly, that neither Mr. Santos or Mr. Williams went inside. They were going to use the outdoors pay phone in order to call for a ride. I believe his testimony at one point on Mr. Williams was that Mr. Williams actually worked at one of the convenience stores and that's why he dropped him at that convenience store.

In reality, Mr. Williams worked approximately two miles north of that convenience store at a pizza store.

BANFIELD: This is so incredibly perplexing that there would be these extremely curious explanations for why someone was in the back of his cruiser at one moment and never seen or heard from again and the story repeated itself almost to a letter a second time.

Almost sounds like that's probable enough cause to bring someone in, at least ask them if they will give a statement, or at least do some kind of forensic testing in the back of the cruiser. Was any of this stuff done?

HUNTER: Yes.

In fact, extensive work was done on the investigative side. Mr. Calkins, then a deputy sheriff corporal, was invited in for several statements. I believe he gave four statements. He was also compelled to participate in three separate polygraph exams.

BANFIELD: How did those turn out?

HUNTER: Pardon me?

BANFIELD: How did those turn out?

HUNTER: One was inconclusive as a result of a head wound that he had received on the day of the polygraph exam, supposedly.

The second one was no deceit indicated. And the third polygraph indicated that he was deceptive, at which point he was called back in during the same session. If you understand how the polygraph works, you have the polygraph exam, then the individual is presented with the polygraph result, confronted on the deceptive statements. I think there were four pertinent questions asked that he was judged deceptive on.

And in an effort to clear that deception up, he was asked very pointed questions, at this point he is alleged to have angrily gotten up and indicated to the investigator that the conversation was over.

It was that type of conduct on that day that caused me to remove him from office. He was judged uncooperative in our investigation. And, yes, we all believe as you do, there are too many inconsistencies and too many coincidences, this all the way from the U.S. attorney's office at the time, the chief U.S. attorney, the FBI, FDLE and myself. The difficulty we have is proving it at the level of probable cause to make an arrest or to serve a warrant.

We could not do so. We could not amass another evidence to get to that level.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: I know there's no statute of limitations when it comes to murder. Clearly if these men are gone, and I mean gone as opposed to just in hiding somewhere, which no one in their family seems to think they are, there is no statute of the limitations and an investigation can continue with all sorts of fervor.

Is that what's happening? Is he being tailed? Do we know where former Deputy Steven Calkins is?

HUNTER: We understand he still resides at the same location that he resided at the time. We do have open investigations on both Mr. Williams and Mr. Santos. Under those investigations, we -- the sheriff's office I should say continues to conduct investigations into both cases. They're receiving tips and we will follow every tip.

BANFIELD: It's just extraordinarily frustrating.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: To all of us.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: It sounds like it, yes.

HUNTER: Every agency head of some tenure -- I had 20 years of sheriff -- will encounter perplexing and odd, bizarre cases. This is mine.

And I exhausted every possibility on this. We literally put transponders on the patrol vehicle thinking that Mr. Calkins would return to the scene if there was a scene involving Mr. Williams and Mr. Santos. I took the car back into safe keeping on a ruse to inspect the vehicle. It was gone through thoroughly by crime scene, looking for blood evidence or any evidence of a struggle.

BANFIELD: And nothing?

HUNTER: We turned up nothing.

BANFIELD: Chief Hunter, it's good of you to join us to talk candidly about this. And we certainly hope there is a development and it doesn't end up in one of those awful cold case files.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: While I'm on the line, if any of your viewers have any information, they're encouraged to call the Collier County Sheriff's Office or myself. And please relate what you may know.

BANFIELD: Collier County Sheriff's Office in Florida. Will do. Thank you, Chief hunter. It's good to talk to you.

Switching gears here and talking politics. As Mitt Romney looks towards the general election, there's a brand-new poll out suggesting he's got a big weakness against President Obama. And that weakness could hurt the Republican front-runner big time in the swing states. We will tell you where the weakness is and why it's critical coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BANFIELD: We have got three presidential primaries that will play out a little later on today. The top two Republicans, Mitt Romney you can see here and Rick Santorum, they're both very focused on with Wisconsin. Maryland and the District of Columbia are also holding their primaries tomorrow as well. We will talk about the race in a moment.

But first I want you to listen to the words of a Republican leader in Congress, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell telling CNN the odds are now "overwhelming" that Mitt Romney will be the nominee. Here's what else he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MINORITY LEADER: Absolutely apparent that it's in the best interest of our party at this particular point to get behind the person who's obviously going to be our nominee and to begin to make the case against the president of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Certainly sounds like he's saying let's wrap this baby up and get behind Mitt Romney. But hold that thought because there's a new poll just out giving an intriguing snapshot pitting Romney against President Obama and it might not be as sweet as the Senate minority leader would like.

More on that from Mark Preston, our CNN political director.

Give me the lowdown, Mark.

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: In some ways Mitch McConnell is correct that he wants to see this get wrapped up.

Very quickly and I think this poll in many ways will tell the reason why. Let's take a quick look at it. It's the "USA Today"/Gallup swing state poll. They survey across 12 different states. Here's the numbers we have right now. Look at that. In a head-to-head matchup, President Obama has a 51-42 percent lead over Romney.

But it's even more troubling when they break the numbers down. Look at how the numbers break down when you just look at women. And look at that right there. Look at that advantage, an 18-point advantage, Ashleigh, right now that President Obama has over Mitt Romney.

And then when you compare what the men who -- where men want to vote, you see right there Mitt Romney has a one percentage point advantage. I guess what this really comes down to, Ashleigh, is that once the Republican presidential primary is over, we're going to see these numbers turn around a little bit. Republicans think that they need to start raising money. And they need to stop attacking one another if they're going to have a chance of defeating President Obama in November.

BANFIELD: And this morning on my early program, very, very early program, I asked Rick Santorum's communications guy about the fatigue of Republican donors, because this is different this time. We have super PACs like mad that have fleecing the Republicans all the way along this race. And how much are they going to want to give? Is that where the Republican leadership is now where it says we need to coalesce and start bankrolling the guy?

PRESTON: Yes. The bottom line is that there was a $1 billion number that was thrown out by someone at the Obama campaign a while back. They have since disputed this number. But in fact President Obama is supposedly going to have about $1 billion to run for reelection, and Republicans realize they need to raise something close to that if they're going to have a shot at defeating him in November.

But even more importantly, what you're seeing now is this criticism of Mitt Romney by the likes of Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich that can only be used by the Obama campaign in November to turn around, make TV ads, and say look at Mitt Romney, even fellow Republicans they he isn't strong enough to run the country, let alone be the nominee.

BANFIELD: Well, Rick Santorum has something to say about that. Mark Preston, it's good to see you. Thank you very much.

And we've been following some breaking news out of east Oakland, California. And like the officer who updated us a few moments ago said, it is fluid. I can tell you, it is very fluid because the suspect is now in custody. That's our breaking news, apparently police catching up with a person they had originally described as a Korean man in his 40s, multiple victims. We do not know the conditions at this point of those victims, but I can tell you the officer in East Oakland just said moments ago that's their priority, medical attention is their priority. And we already saw two stretchers taking victims to waiting ambulances. And we know that five ambulances were called, that SWAT teams have been on locations, and that just moments ago they said the area was secured but that the building was not. so clearly that has changed as the suspect is now in custody and the attention can turn 100 percent to clearing out students who have been seeking cover as this incident has played out over the last hour or so.

And we've got helicopter shots courtesy of KTVU who has been giving us a bird's eye view of this location. But again, the area was secured, the building was not. There were still students inside that were still injured, apparently multiple victims, but we don't know the full count. And medical teams and police were dispatched to try to get into that building where they thought that shooter may have been to try to assess just how many victims of this rampage there may have been. At this point, I can't tell you that any have died, but there are definitely victims involved. We'll continue watch as they evacuate those students from this situation.

But really incredible pictures as you see from the helicopter as the SWAT teams have been not only watching out for themselves and other students, but just trying to find out where this shooter was. Luckily we can report to you, though, they have this person in custody. And by all accounts, they were only looking for one.

And still ahead, we're getting our first clear look at the JetBlue pilot who, for a lack of better description, freaked out inside of his plane. Appearing in federal court, you're going to see the walk. You'll also hear what his family has to say to his fellow colleagues onboard. It's all coming up in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: The airline pilot who caused a panic last week at 35,000 feet has gone into a federal courtroom in Texas. "The Amarillo Globe News" shot video of Clayton Osbon surrounded by federal agents. Of course what you're seeing is live. He's there in the first place. This incident captured on cellphone video on a JetBlue flight that really had a lot of people scared. It's not often you see your pilot who needs to be restrained. He faces charges of interfering with a flight crew for allegedly leaving the cockpit, running through the cabin, and then ranting about religious and terrorists.

Our aviation correspondent Lizzie O'Leary is tracking the story from Washington. Obviously everyone wants to know, with a first appearance, he's clearly going to be in a different state of mind going into the courtroom. What happened?

LIZZIE O'LEARY, CNN AVIATION AND REGULATION CORRESPONDENT: We, he has appeared to be that way, Ashleigh. We know he went into court today. This is his initial appearance. He's still being held without bond in a local jail in Texas, Amarillo. He's being charged with federal charges of interfering with a flight crew, and we should remind our viewers that could carry up to a maximum sentence of 20 years, though he has still not entered a plea here.

He will get another court appearance on Thursday morning and probably another chance to get a slightly better chance of what happened onboard that plane. We have seen affidavits from the FBI, an agent investigating this case talking about certain things Captain Osbon is alleged to have said running up and down this aisle. But we'll actually get the FBI agent in the courtroom probably not likely to hear from Clayton Osbon in that appearance on Thursday, but essentially he will remain in custody until then.

BANFIELD: So what about the bigger issue, and that is the screening of pilots before they take their place in the cockpit? Do we know what happened, what they're supposed to tell their bosses and what are actually telling their bosses?

O'LEARY: I think you hit on the really interesting part of that in the last part of that question. Right now what the FAA mandates is a once a year screening for pilots under 40 who get a physical exam by an FAA certified doctor. They ask some mental health questions, but this is not a separate psychiatric evaluation. And then it's twice a year if your over 40 as Captain Osbon is. Many airlines also conduct their own screening programs when they initially hire pilots, but it's something that they are mandated to do by the FAA. So there are a lot of questions about whether pilots are fully honest with those doctors. Remember, they're not allowed to fly after several psychological conditions have been diagnosed.

BANFIELD: So what do we know about his family? I would only assume his family were there, or at least had some kind of support for him.

O'LEARY: His wife has released a statement through the airline essentially saying we don't ever -- you know, we're very surprised about this. We don't think it's intentional on his part. We basically like to be left alone and deal with this on our own. I think we will probably get a fuller picture of that after the court proceedings on Thursday.

BANFIELD: It can't be easy for them. It's obviously a terrible situation for them. And as you mentioned, it's 20 years down the pike possibly facing that in jail, that's not a good situation for him. Lizzie O'Leary, thank you.

The "Game of Thrones," a hit series on HBO, and we're about to show you a behind-the-scenes peek at how the producers created an entire language for the show. It's part of CNN's "Next List."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Dothraki are a kind of wondering tribe in this kind of imaginary world that George R.R. Martin in this book has created. They're first and foremost warriors.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We took the tribe from George Martin's bestselling series. And in George's books, the Dothraki speak their own language, and we thought we could create that fictional language for a few lines. And we tried to do that and it sounded like gobbledygook.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's where I came. I created the language for the Dothraki and worked as a translator on the show.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were a little skeptical, but once we actually got the Dothraki language that Pierson created and we saw the actors performing the lines, there was no question. It made a huge difference in those scenes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And don't forget to catch CNN's brand-new show "The Next List." It airs Sundays at 2:00 p.m. eastern on CNN.

And coming up next, there's a report of a possible showdown involving one of the lucky lotto winners, and it involves, you guessed it, the office pool that we all get in on. Joey Jackson once represented a group involved in this kind of spat and he's going to join me now live, and he's smiling so he's probably got something good to tell me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: So did you get in on it? Lottery pools are all fun and games, and then luck strikes. And a winning ticket has led to lawsuits between a ticket holder and the other people in the pool. It happens, and it's the cover of the New York post, in fact. It kind of looks like it may end up happening to this woman featured in the "New York Post." She says she has one of the three winning mega million tickets which will share a $656 million jackpot. "The New York Post" reports that she bought the ticket on her own outside of the lottery pool that she had with her 15 colleagues at the McDonald's where she worked. But did she? And how can you prove any of that?

Legal analyst Joey Jackson is on the case. And we should point out it has not been confirmed whether she bought the winning tick or has the winning ticket. She just says she does. So this is the kind of story that gets you going. Were you in a pool?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Likely story. Of course, we all had a dollar and a dream.

BANFIELD: I was in two lotto pools, not only with the studio crew and our editorial crew. But I wasn't the guy who was dispatched to the 7-Eleven to pick up the tickets. So tell me, if she is telling the truth and does have a winning ticket, what does she have to prove in order to say it was my ticket and not the pool ticket? JACKSON: Here's the problem. And this is what's encountered all the time. That's why you have to define the group that are going to be involved in the particular lottery so you know what the parameters are, and then you designate the individual. Let me tell you my experience. The individual designated to purchase the ticket says when the group wins, it wasn't your ticket. It was my ticket. I purchased it independently.

BANFIELD: I should have said right off the bat, you actually represented the lottery pool in the last case out of New Jersey where the guy said no, no, it's my ticket, not yours.

JACKSON: The first think that has to happen, as the attorney you have to freeze the money. What we did in our case, when we went to freeze the money, half of it was gone already two weeks later. Half of it was gone two weeks later. So we froze the money. In order to do that you have to show you have a likelihood of success on the merit, you could potentially prevail, and interest of justice requires that. So the money was frozen. The matter was litigated. Ultimately, he says listen, I'm not going to share anything with you, but I'll give you the $2 back you gave me to go get the ticket. If you don't want that I'll give you the hat or the umbrella gave me that the lottery gave me when I won. Unacceptable. So the story did not pass the smell test, and so it was determined that it was not your own ticket.

If you participate in a pool, that's fine. You don't waive your individual right to go out and buy tickets on your own. But at the same time, what you have to determine if you're part of that pool, that's why it's so important, get those tickets, photo copy them for the group once you designate who the representatives are, give it out to everybody, sign it. It makes it so much easier in court. Fortunately ours did not go to trial.

BANFIELD: These guys are in a McDonald's and they probably don't have a photo copier they could have used. And we don't know if she has the winning ticket, but if she does, she was dispatched, she said twice. Her office pool says she went once to get the tickets, and her boss says he sent her out a second time. So even video of that convenience store won't help the case, would it?

JACKSON: But it's a matter of circumstantial evidence. Courts don't like fraud.

BANFIELD: It's he said-she said.

JACKSON: It is, indeed, but it has to pass the smell test. When you have a number of people, it's normal common sense. Ultimately when it gets to a jury, they're going to determine was it you acting independently or you act on behalf of the group. If your story doesn't make sense, you have to pay back the money.

BANFIELD: How many members of that jury were in an office pool?

JACKSON: Hopefully many of them and this way they can relate to the people who are in the pool and they can get their money. I doubt if it goes that far.

BANFIELD: Or they get disqualified.

JACKSON: That's right.

BANFIELD: Joey Jackson, thanks for coming. It's always a joy talking to you.

JACKSON: Thank you.

BANFIELD: OK, so even though CNN has the best morning show on television, I can say that because I'm on it --

(LAUGHTER)

BANFIELD: I'm kidding, I'm totally kidding. There's a total war breaking out in the two hours after my show, and it's between the broadcast morning shows. You will not believe the punches they're pulling. I'm just going to do this. Oh, yes, baby. Katie versus Sarah is coming up after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: I tweeted the other day that I could retire because I did Supreme Court coverage with Wolf Blitzer, and look whose come to join me in person in New York.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": Nice to see you.

BANFIELD: It's good to see you too.

BLITZER: It's been a long day for you.

BANFIELD: You know, hour 16, 17 at CNN.

BLITZER: You're a hardworking young girl.

BANFIELD: Nothing like you. You're the Energizer bunny.

BLITZER: I'm filling in for Anderson tonight, too, so that will be a longer day for me.

BANFIELD: So we're on the same plan.

So before you jump to Anderson's show, how about jump to Wolf's show and tell me what you've got coming up.

BLITZER: There's breaking news out of Oakland, California. We're following that, the shooting at this college out there. A lot of politics going on. We're speaking to Martin O'Malley, who is the governor of Maryland, the head of the Democratic Governors Association. He's got some strong views on what's going on with Mitt Romney.

And we're also going to go in depth -- you know, I'm amazing what Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton are now saying about the election and Mitt Romney. I've got some thoughts on that as well.

BANFIELD: Can you give a little more of a teaser, or that's it?

BLITZER: You're going to see what they have to say about Mitt Romney as the likely Republican presidential nominee unless Santorum can do something amazing.

BANFIELD: I was talking to Hogan Gidley this morning on my program, and he said we're not dropping out, absolutely not. And I was so fascinated when Rick Santorum said it's not about the math. What race is ever not about the math?

BLITZER: Pennsylvania at the end of the month, if Santorum can't win his home state of Pennsylvania --

BANFIELD: Those poll numbers are unbelievable how they've changed in the last month alone. I mean, he's plummeted in the last month.

BLITZER: The Romney campaign is spending a lot of money in Pennsylvania, in Wisconsin. One of the reasons they're doing it, not only because they want to beat Santorum now, but they see it also as an investment in November because these are battleground states in November as well. You want to own a television station in Pennsylvania and Ohio and Florida, because you're going to make a lot of money, millions and millions of dollars in ad revenue, which will be coming in between now and November.

BANFIELD: No kidding.

BLITZER: You don't want to own a television station in New York or Texas or California, because those states, it's over.

BANFIELD: We want to own a television station, two words -- "job security."

(LAUGHTER)

BANFIELD: Nice to see you, Wolf. Thanks for coming in.

You've heard about this whole Katie Couric, Sarah Palin thing?

BLITZER: Yes. What did you think?

BANFIELD: The front page of "The Daily News," the Battle Royale. We're going to talk a little bit more about it and just what was behind all of this and whether it was appropriate in the first place. Katie Couric hosting GMA, Sarah Palin getting ready for her big "Today Show" debut as a host, not a guest. We're going to break that down in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Wondering what's trending, and are you hoping for some sunny mornings when you turn on your morning television? Not this week. It's a Battle Royale. The gloves are absolutely off between ABC and NBC now that former "Today Show" host Katie Couric is pinch hitting on GMA, and NBC's plan is to strike back hard with Sarah Palin. Here's CNN's Alina Cho.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's being dubbed the "Catfight," America's sweetheart versus the GOP's favorite hockey mom, Sarah Palin in one corner, Katie Couric in the other.

KATIE COURIC, NEWS ANCHOR: I'm happy to be here, George, thank you for inviting me, first of all. But it's a little strange, truth be told.

CHO: That's because for more than 15 years Katie Couric was the cohost of the "Today Show." In 2006 she left for the "CBS Evening News," and last year she joined ABC to develop a talk show debuting this fall, which is why this week she's filling in on ABC's "Good Morning, America" at a time when the "Today Show" is leading GMA by less than 200,000 viewers. Why all the hoopla? In a word, money.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These shows support the entire news division. They really underwrite everything else that the news division does. They make over $400 million a year in ad revenue.

CHO: Every viewer counts. On Twitter, Couric fans went wild, saying sorry "Today Show, I'm watching Katie Couric this morning." That's right in an effort to blunt what could be a GMA ratings bonanza with Couric temporarily in the chair, the "Today Show" is bringing out its own big gun, Sarah Palin. She will cohost the "Today Show" on Tuesday.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know, Governor Palin, you have a lot of experience in television having been a former sportscaster.

SARAH PALIN, (R) FORMER ALASKA GOVERNOR: I did a lot of courses for the Big E, but it's not the only mushing going on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you doing to prepare? Are you reading some newspapers?

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it begins.

CHO: The latest, greatest battle in the morning show war pitting Palin against a former nemesis.

COURIC: I was curious, what newspapers and magazines did you regularly read before you were tapped for this to stay informed and to understand --

PALIN: I've read most of them, again, with a great appreciation for the press, for the media.

COURIC: What specifically? I'm curious --

PALIN: All of them, any of them that have been in front of me over all these years.

COURIC: An interview that became fodder for "Saturday Night Live."

TINA FEY, COMEDIAN: Well, Alaska and Russia are only separated by a narrow maritime border. You've got Alaska here, and this right here's water, and then that up there's Russia.

CHO: And if that's not enough, perennial number three, CBS's recently revamped morning show CBS this morning brought out its own headliner Monday, the new cohost Gale King's famous best friend, Oprah.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(LAUGHTER)

CHO: Let's not forget Oprah. Of course the big ratings test will be tomorrow when Couric and Palin go head-to-head. A spokesman for the "Today Show" told us that Palin will be interviewed in the 7:00 a.m. hour and then she will join not only Matt Lauer but also Ann Curry as cohost from 8:00 to 9:00.

For her part, Katie Couric tweeted just today "One down, four to go," meaning four more days to go, of course, and, quote, "Don't worry Robin Roberts fans, myself included, she'll be back next Monday." And for all of those Katie Couric fans out there who are hoping she'll be back on in the mornings, don't forget, she has that talk show she's working on, syndicated in partnership with ABC, and that will debut in September. So it doesn't look like she'll be on in the morning.

BANFIELD: Alina, co-host when just prior to that you're being interviewed and you're absolutely a partisan politician, I'm not sure I really get that. Is that NBC pushing the envelope?

CHO: Maybe. You could say that. Of course, NBC wouldn't talk about that. They'll only say she'll be interviewed tomorrow on news, and politics, and of course tomorrow is the big primary day for the GOP.

BANFIELD: Cannot wait to see the ratings on that one. Alina Cho, thank you for that, nice to see you again.

And that is it for me, but the news continues with "THE SITUATION ROOM" and Wolf Blitzer.