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March Jobs Data Disappoints; Syria Intensifies Attacks; Campaigns Trade Slams on Twitter; Eighteen Years After The Horrors, Rwandans Push Forward After Genocide; Tape Reveals Details Of Saints Bounty; Navy F-18 Crashes Near Virginia Beach
Aired April 06, 2012 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: Live from CNN headquarters in Atlanta, where it's 12:00 noon, 9:00 a.m. in the West Coast, I'm Suzanne Malveaux.
I want to get you up to speed for this Friday, April 6th.
After several months of solid growth, job market is now slowing down, 120,000 new jobs were created in March. That is well below the 200,000 that were expected. Unemployment rate dipped slightly to 8.2 percent. Almost 13 million Americans are out of work.
President Obama is touting his record on women's economic security. He delivered a speech a short time ago at the White House, forum on women. It comes at a key time in the president's bid for reelection. He says his commitment to helping improve the lives of women and girls is a personal one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you.
There's been a lot of talk about women and women's issues lately as there should be. But I do think that the conversation has been oversimplified. Women are not some monolithic bloc. Women are not an interest group. You shouldn't be treated that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: New audiotape revealing disturbing new details about New Orleans Saints cash for hits bounty program. A former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, he is at the center of the controversy. He's been suspended indefinitely for allegedly encouraging his players to hurt other players for extra cash.
Listen to what Williams reportedly told players about how to handle 49ers wide receiver Kyle Williams during a playoff game in January.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GREGG WILLIAMS, FORMER SAINTS DEFENSIVE COORDINATOR: We need to find out in the first two series of the game, the little wide receiver number 10, about his concussion. We need to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) put a lick on him right now. He needs to decide. He needs to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) decide.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: We're going to talk more about the bounty scandal with the former NFL player just moments ahead.
Keith Olbermann, he wants Current TV to pay up. The network fired Olbermann last week. The breakup, it is not pretty. Current TV bosses say Olbermann didn't show up for work and bad-mouthed the executives. Olbermann is now suing, saying Current TV owes him between $50 million and $70 million. The network is partly owned by former Vice President Al Gore.
Around the world, Christians are marking Good Friday, the day they believe that Jesus was crucified.
In the Philippines, thousands of people gathered in villages to watch devotees being nailed to crosses. The reenactment of Jesus' suffering is discouraged by church officials.
In Jerusalem, people carrying crosses led the procession down the path where Jesus said to have carried the cross.
And the Jewish celebration of Passover begins at sundown. It marks the exodus of the ancient Israelites from slavery in Egypt. As part of the preparations, Jews empty their houses of leaven bread and burn it in bonfires.
We're digging deeper into the latest job numbers. The unemployment rate is now the lowest it's been in more than three years. But hiring has been falling sharply from previous months. We have got 120,000 jobs created in March.
President Obama, he highlighted the recent job strength in the market. Also said there are still some challenges ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Our economy has now created more than 4 million private sector jobs over the past two years, and more than 600,000 in the past three months alone. But it's clear to every American that there will still be ups and downs along the way, and this we've got a lot more work to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: All right. So, let's bring in Christine Romans from New York.
Christine, the numbers today -- some people look at them quite disappointing, not what we expected here. What does it say about the overall job market?
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, it's interesting when you have a drop in the unemployment rate to 8.2 percent, that should be a good thing, right? Eight-point-two percent unemployment rate, but 120,000 jobs created, it's not -- it's not as good as they'd like it. It is definitely much slower than we have seen over the past few months -- 246,000 jobs created over the past few months, and that's -- this 120,000 is much, much lower than that.
I want to zero in on the private sector, something the president has talked about. Let me see if I can make this bigger. The private sector 121,000 jobs created in the private sector for the month. Only a thousand public sector jobs lost.
And what's interesting about that, we had seen so many government jobs lost over the past year or so, that this is slowing and it is the private sector that's picking up the slack.
When you look within the numbers to see what kind of sectors are growing, you've got one that stands out for not growing and that's retail jobs. We lost 34,000 of those, Suzanne, in the month of March and that was a little bit of a surprise to people. The only part of retail where you saw jobs created was like home and garden stores because it's been such nice weather. Other than that, you're showing a retail -- retail picture that's not really as strong as you'd like.
And also, manufacturing -- this is a sign of strength. This continues, 37,000 manufacturing jobs added, Suzanne.
MALVEAUX: Christine, we know of course the jobs report can turn political. We already know that the Republicans are using it against the president.
Overall, when you look at these numbers, does it help or hurt President Obama when you look at the economic picture?
ROMANS: It's a really good question. For the month, a lot of economists say they think it hurts the president. But they say you have to look at the overall trend and we have seven more jobs reports until the election so don't make too much out of just one month.
When you look at the trend, this is the last months of the Bush administration when the financial crisis was really heating up. The first months of the Obama administration, these are hundreds of thousands of jobs lost. I bring this to you every month when we have the jobs report, but it's a really instructive piece of history.
And then this is where the economy has tried to find its footing with some set backs. These are those -- you know, the White House likes to say the 25 consecutive months of private job creation and that's true, but it's this slowing right here that has some concerned.
We have to see whether it bears out for the rest of the summer, to really know for us. Other of folks would like to see 200,000 or more jobs added, 120 is what we got. The jobless rate dropping to 8.2 percent, economists tell me that's because people left the workforce, 164,000 left the workforce.
So you know better than anyone else, Suzanne, that both sides will look at this number and find the little -- the little slice of data that's going to advance their particular talking points and we're definitely seeing that.
MALVEAUX: All right, we already have.
All right. Christine, thank you. Have a good weekend.
ROMANS: You're welcome.
MALVEAUX: Here's a rundown of some of the stories that we are covering. Tornadoes are frightening enough, right from the ground, but wait until you see them from inside. We got some cool 3D tornado views that NASA cooked up to show you how scary these things can be.
Later a recording comes out that seems to be a pro football coach telling his team to really hurt their opponents. A former Atlanta Falcon is going to be here to tell us if this is unusual.
And then this guy was striking them out in the pros when Reagan was president. Baseball's oldest starting pitcher making sports history.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MALVEAUX: It's a deadly countdown to a ceasefire in Syria.
Government troops and tanks are battling rebel forces in cities across the country. People are on the run, a record number of them trying to find safety in Turkey.
Our Ivan Watson, he is there. He joins us from Istanbul.
And, Ivan, there's a lot of tension I know. There must be growing concern whether or not the Syria president is going to honor this peace agreement. Any signs that's going to happen?
IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, a lot of observers as this agreement was reached were very pessimistic and predicted that this would be an opportunity for the Syrian regime to kill as many people as possible before this Tuesday deadline when the Syrian government has agreed to withdraw its military forces from Syrian population centers.
And judging by the accounts we're getting from inside the country, that's what appears to be taking place. There are videos and eyewitness accounts of ongoing shelling of a number of different cities and towns across the country. Helicopters are being used to rocket Syrian cities and towns.
And one town in particular that I visited last month, Suzanne, the northern town of (INAUDIBLE), it was controlled by opposition activists and fighters, that has been the scene of days and nights of bombardment.
And I have to warn viewers about this upcoming video. Yesterday, the Syrian military stopped fighting and let volunteers go in to dig up bodies and they dug up dozens of people killed in that artillery bombardment. A mass grave with dozens of dead men laid out there on Thursday, some of them wearing military uniforms.
The point being though that the military offensive has not abated. It is pushing a fresh wave of refugees to the border here with Turkey -- Suzanne.
MALVEAUX: Ivan, how can the international community respond or help? Is this simply a waiting game while people are being killed there?
WATSON: Well, many different forces, some calling for much more action. Some countries like Saudi Arabia and Qatar and even Turkey talking about sending money and possible armaments to the Syrian opposition. There have been calls for the establishment of buffer zones in Syria.
The U.S. government, according to my sources, has not been interested in taking the steps. Today, Turkey after getting a record number of more than 2,700 refugees in a 24-hour period streaming across the border to escape their own government, it has for the first time called for the United Nations to take a more active role in dealing with the growing refugee crisis.
There are now more than 23,000 Syrian refugees in Turkey that have fled and the Turks so far have not wanted any international assistance with that. Calling on the U.N. to help, may be a sign, some observers say, that Turkey may be preparing the way for a possible buffer zone, arguing that to protect itself if more refugees come at this kind of level, the Turks may have to then intervene. Send troops in to Syria to house those refugees along the buffer zone.
Of course, we're from that. But those are the type of scenarios that people are talking about now.
MALVEAUX: (INAUDIBLE) Syrian situation on the border there. Thank you, Ivan.
Well, the Twitter war has begun. The White House and Romney campaign, they're all on online slam fest. Can a tweet sway an election? I'm going to ask our political panel.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MALVEAUX: Today's jobs report wasn't all the White House was hoping for, but the economy is still showing signs of some improvement. So can the Republican score points by slamming the president's economic policies?
Here to talk about it Democratic strategist Maria Cardona, and Republican and conservative commentator Matt Lewis.
Good to see you both. The weekend is around the corner.
Maria, we're not quite out of the hole yet. The unemployment is down, what, 8.2 percent. Even Mitt Romney admitted the economy is improving, but a lot of the strategy in the GOP rests with hitting the president on the economy.
So how -- how does that work? Is that even going to be a powerful campaign message?
MARIA CARDONA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Definitely not as powerful as I think they had hoped it would be, Suzanne.
And look, the president is the first one to say and he said it this morning, that we are not where we need to be, that he wants a jobs report that is much stronger. He wants to be able to report that more jobs are being created. But there's no question that we are on the right path.
He has created more than 4.1 millions since he took office. These past three months have been the strongest job creation quarter since the recession started.
So, you're right, the economy is going in the right direction. And it's not going to be the slam dunk tool that Republicans had hoped. And they have to be very careful how they tread on this because it's going to be very dangerous territory for them if they're seen by the American people as trying to talk down the economy when we are seeing signs of it being improved.
MALVEAUX: Matt, how does the GOP counter that?
MATT LEWIS, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: Well, look, I think a couple things. One, this jobs report was actually -- did not meet expectations. And we had President Obama's own economist saying at this point we'd have 5.8 percent unemployment rate. Instead there's an 8 percent unemployment rate, the longest consecutive time we have been above 8 percent since the Great Depression. Gas prices are high.
So a lot of people are still hurting. I think it would equally be a mistake for President Obama to underestimate or discount how many people out there are still struggling.
MALVEAUX: Let's talk real quick about the Twitter war that's happening between these two, between President Obama and Romney. Here are some of the tweets that we're seeing.
It says, "So what is Romney hiding? Mitt Romney's demand to release the tax returns, what Mitt Romney is hiding."
And then also you have the Romney campaign swinging back saying, "Yikes, it just cost me $4.09 a gallon to fill up in Boston. Obama isn't working."
Whoa! I mean, the last go round we saw the e-mails were flying and now it's the tweets. Is this -- do you think this gets deep enough? Does this actually convince people or are these little head lines that people throwing out there?
CARDONA: I think it's one thing in the arsenal of tools that campaigns are using today, Suzanne, and everybody knows the way to win campaigns is to focus on what we call micro-target your message.
So, clearly, one tweet and just focusing on Twitter is in no way, shape or form going to win an election, swing an election, but it certainly is a tool to get to especially those younger folks, the tech savvy folks, a lot of young Latinos are now on Twitter, a lot of younger women, and even some seniors are really picking up the social media trend.
We are still in no way, shape, or form close to Twitter being the one and only campaign tool that can swing an election.
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: But again, a way to get your message out.
LEWIS: And it's also an interesting thing. I mean, I see not only presidential candidates but there are strategists using it. And it's interesting, you can sort of taunt people and I would say even stalk people on Twitter in a way that you can't do in other media.
It's almost -- you're like a wimp if you don't respond back. And that's not the case -- if someone puts out a press release demanding you apologize, you can ignore that, but a tweet is like if you don't respond, you know, you're kind of a wimp.
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: Well, but also it depends on who's tweeting you, because if that person has two followers you're not going to care. But if they have 40,000, then you respond.
MALVEAUX: Yes. We're looking at how many followers he has.
There was some sad news from the campaign trail. Rick Santorum's daughter has been hospitalized again. They put out a statement from the campaign saying that Rick and his wife Karen have taken their daughter Bella to the hospital. The family requests prayers and privacy as Bella works her way to recovery."
We know that there was a time that Santorum could not campaign because he was attending to his family. There are calls for him to step down.
Do you think -- do you think that we're going to se something like that happen because he has so much to deal with now?
LEWIS: Well, I mean, I think that number one, I think, you know, Senator Santorum is taking this weekend off. He was already planning to do it. I think to celebrate Easter at home.
I think that now you actually might see the calls for him to step down will cease because it would be I think unseemly at this time. But look, he is -- even people who don't like his politics know that Rick Santorum is a devout Catholic and, you know, deeply committed to his family.
And I just think, you know, our thoughts and prayers should be with them. And this should be a time, let him make that decision.
CARDONA: Yes, I agree 100 percent, Suzanne. I think everybody in the political world and anybody who knows Rick Santorum has heard of what he's going through with his family have nothing but prayers and thoughts in terms of that their family is going through right now.
I do think it would be unseemly for anybody to second guess what he's going to do. That's a decision that only he and his family can make right now. And all of our prayers and thoughts are with him.
MALVEAUX: All right. Thank you very much. Obviously we're wishing their family very well.
Maria, Matt, thanks again. Have a great weekend.
CARDONA: Thank you.
MALVEAUX: Unemployment rate is down, but so is the number of new jobs. So, we're going to bring in an economist to help make sense of the latest jobs report.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MALVEAUX: Here's a rundown of some of the stories that we're covering. This is without a doubt the coolest tornado model you're going to see all day. NASA gets all 3D on us. Yes.
And later, NFL players accused of injuring players on purpose. Now, there's an audiotape purportedly of a coach telling the players to do just that.
And I just returned from east Africa with an unforgettable story of forgiveness and compassion. This on the commemoration of Rwanda's genocide.
Mixed bag -- that's what my next guest calls the latest reading on the job market. He also says the numbers show the U.S. economy still has some challenges on the road to recovery.
Danny Boston is an economics professor at Georgia Tech.
Danny, great to see you here.
THOMAS "DANNY" BOSTON, GEORGIA TECH ECONOMICS PROFESSOR: Goods to be back.
MALVEAUX: Yes, it's been a little while, I think.
BOSTON: Yes. Your trip to Rwanda must have been great.
MALVEAUX: It was a fantastic trip. Really had a good time, learned a lot there as well.
BOSTON: I'll be interested to hear your reporting on it.
MALVEAUX: Oh, it's coming up.
Tell us about the jobs market, how did we do?
BOSTON: It's really mixed. It's mixed. It takes some sorting out. The unemployment rate went down from 8.3 to 8.2, but we only gained half as many jobs as we have gained over the last three months. And so, that's the --
MALVEAUX: Why did that happen?
BOSTON: Well, you know, it's hard to know until we have a chance to really look at it. It could be a number of things. For example, it could be the fact that the increase in oil prices are now working their way through the economy because when we look at the employment numbers, particularly down in retail. So that could be one thing.
I also think when I look at the numbers, there's some areas that don't all add up. So I think in months to come, there will be some statistical adjustments.
And the other thing it could be a trend. We could be leveling off some because investment has rebounded and housing starts rebounding (ph). So, it could be a trend. So we won't know for another month or two.
MALVEAUX: OK. Still some questions there. What about the industries, how did it actually sort itself out? Which ones did well, which ones not so much?
BOSTON: Manufacturing did well. I think they gained 37,000 jobs. And then leisure and hospitality, about 39,000 jobs. Construction not so well. They were down about 7,000 jobs.
But the most encouraging is manufacturing because that's really one of the drivers of the economy. And we see that also reflected in for example auto sales. And so, that's an encouraging trend.
MALVEAUX: Tell us about -- was there any difference in terms of racial breakdown, or gender?
BOSTON: Yes, there was not much change except among Latinos. Now, for example, white unemployment remained the same at 7.3 percent. Unemployment among African-Americans went down slightly from 14.1 percent to 14 percent.
And -- but unemployment among Latinos went down from 17 -- 10.7 percent to 10.3 percent. So there was a significant gain there.
And when you look at the gains across gender, there was not much of a change there. So the -- the employment gains were not all that significant. There were some troubling things going on in terms of trying to reconcile the numbers and that's because we had a significant decrease in the size of the labor force, 164,000.
MALVEAUX: So if those people weren't even looking for work, they just dropped out of the labor force altogether?
BOSTON: Just disappeared, we don't know yet, because when we look at the discouraged workers where the comment that you just made, where we ought to see those workers being picked up, the discouraged workers' numbers also decreased by 141,000.
So there's something that needs to be reconciled if we have a smaller labor force, we ought to have a larger number of discouraged workers. And we did not. We had a smaller number of discouraged worker, we had more employed workers. We had fewer unemployed.
So, there are some signs that indicate that the economy -- the job gains should have been much stronger than they were. And we'll have to see next month.
MALVEAUX: OK. Well, we'll have you next month. We'll have you before next month.
BOSTON: Sounds good. All right.
MALVEAUX: Have a great weekend.
BOSTON: Congratulations on your half marathon.
MALVEAUX: Thank you. You're just full of stories today.
BOSTON: That's right. I'm inspired.
MALVEAUX: It was not pretty, let me tell you.
BOSTON: Is that right? You did it.
MALVEAUX: Thank you, Danny.
BOSTON: Sure.
MALVEAUX: Well, on to another story, a much more serious one. He murdered her brother, cutting him down with machete, but this Rwandan woman found it within herself to forgive, even live in the same village as her killer, all for the good of the country. For my trip to Rwanda, 18 years after the genocide.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
POPPY HARLOW, CNNMONEY.COM: Time now for the "Help Desk," where we get answers to your financial questions.
And joining me this hour, Gary Schatsky is a financial planner and president of objectiveadvice.com. Carmen Wong Ulrich is the president of the ALTA Wealth Management.
Thanks both for coming in.
GARY SCHATSKY, OBJECTIVEADVICE.COM: A pleasure.
HARLOW: Carmen, your question comes from Kay in Hawaii. Kay wrote in, "I've got over $19,000 in debt. My bank is offering me a mortgage debt consolidation loan. Should I take the offer and pay off the credit cards?"
CARMEN WONG ULRICH, PRESIDENT, ALTA WEALTH MANAGEMENT: Two questions for her, first of all, what's the interest rate on this offer that they have.
HARLOW: Right.
ULRICH: What can you refinance into, could it be something as low as 4.5 percent, 4 percent? And, two, how much equity do you have in your home? Because turning credit card debt which is into unsecured debt, into secured debt, which is into your home, can be dangerous if you don't have a lot of equity in your home. So, you want to make sure that you have a lot of equity and room -- wiggle room at least more than 20 percent equity in your home before you tie any credit card debt into it.
But make sure you pay this off. That's other trouble is. She's turning one thing into another.
HARLOW: It doesn't go away.
ULRICH: Is she going to pay it off? Don't get into debt again.
HARLOW: Exactly. All right, great answer. Gary, your question comes from Emilio in California. Emilio wrote in, "I plan to contribute $17,000 to my 401(k). My wife is a stay at home mom. Can I contribute $17,000 to her 401(k) as well?
GARY SCHATSKY, FINANCIAL PLANNER: Unfortunately, if she's not working, she can't contribute to a 401(k), but there are other opportunities. It's great that you want to contribute as much as possible.
They might be able to contribute to a deductible IRA if their income is sufficiently low. Otherwise, look at a Roth IRA, which is a spectacular way to save for the future. Well, while it's not deductible it grows tax free for the rest of your life.
That's incredibly powerful for people who are below age 100. I mean, you have decades of tax free growth and alternatively, if none of those work, you can always make a non-deductible IRA contribution.
Now look, if this person has any debt, that's where the money probably should be going particularly if it's credit card debt and non-deductable debt. But it's great that you're focusing on savings and that's the way to go.
HARLOW: All righ, thanks, guys. If you have any questions you want answered, just send us an e-mail any time to cnnhelpdesk@cnn.com.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MALVEAUX: Could you forgive someone who killed your entire family? Could you live side by side with him? Well, that's what many Rwandan people are faced with today. On the 18-year commemoration of the Rwandan genocide, to maintain peace, many are struggling to forgive those who participated in the 1994 slaughter.
While on my visit last week, I sat face to face with a killer who is seeking forgiveness.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice-over): (Inaudible) grew up together as children. They lived and played together in the same neighborhood. But 18 years ago, something horrible happened between them. Frederick hunted down and killed Lawrence's family.
(on camera): Specifically what happened, what did you do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): His group, they killed seven people. They killed them using the machetes and cut the body in pieces and cut off their heads.
MALVEAUX (voice-over): Frederick is a Hutu, a member of the ethnic group in Rwanda that in 1994 killed more than 800,000 in just 100 days. Lawrence is a Tutsi, a member of the ethnic group that was targeted. During the genocide, 10 of her family members were murdered including her parents and a brother.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Whenever she thought about her brother, she pray to God that she will meet him one day in heaven.
MALVEAUX: How did this happen, neighbor turning against neighbor? Frederick said he was brain washed by the government to hate the Tutsis.
(on camera): When he was doing this, what was he -- what was he thinking? What was he feeling about this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): He had no feelings at the moment. Just the devil overcame their hearts.
MALVEAUX: He also killed women and children as well?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, all of them.
MALVEAUX (voice-over): Frederick served nine years in prison for the murders. After his release, he agreed to participate in a program to reconcile with his victims' families, starting with Lawrence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He approached them and told them he betrayed them and he told them that he's the one who killed their family. She thanked him, but she couldn't even talk to him. She felt like she was talking to the devil.
MALVEAUX: We found Frederick and Lawrence living in a reconciliation village. It's a community of 53 homes that killers and their victims' families built together. The exercise is aimed at helping Rwandans move beyond their tragic past, leave ethnic divisions behind and forgive.
(on camera): Why should the family forgive him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He repented and he realized what he did was bad. He asked God for forgiveness. He does not expect people's forgiveness.
MALVEAUX (voice-over): After three months of praying together and working to build their homes, Lawrence says she did forgive.
(on camera): When you think about your brother and the way he was killed, do you think your brother would want you to forgive him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What she thinks it's not being able to forgive, but this is the power of God.
MALVEAUX (voice-over): But is this really a lasting peace? Is the hatred really gone?
(on camera): Does he ever see the faces of the people that he killed? Do they haunt him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The most difficult time is him thinking about the kids that he killed. And at the moment, they could be brilliant kids and they could be developing the country.
MALVEAUX: Would you ever kill again?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I would not go back again to killing. He would rather die first.
MALVEAUX: Do you ever feel like seeking revenge?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have never thought about that because she saw how people died with blood all over. Those were -- with the machete. She never thought of killing somebody else.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: Jim Clancy joins me now. Jim was one of the reporters in Rwanda for CNN in the days after the genocide. You said even during that period where they were killing people 18 years ago, I wanted to talk about a number of things.
First of all, just being there and meeting young people. These are in the late teens, early 20s. One of the things that struck me was how they want to move beyond the painful period, but these are people who remembered their parents being killed. When you got on the ground there 18 years ago, what was it like?
JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Empty. Empty and haunted, the stench of death. Every latrine, every well, every cattle dipping station was jam-packed with rotting bodies.
And you can't imagine what it was like to see all of that. And it's little doubt that people want to put it behind them that the government is taking great pains to show people just what this was.
Because you've got to remember the majority of people that are in Rwanda today in one way or another took part in that genocide. That was the plan. The plan was to involve as many people as possible.
The military didn't do the killing. Even the militia that was organized by the leading political party didn't do the killing. It forced the people to kill their neighbors and in that way everybody would be joined together in the crime. And then they sought impunity for that crime.
MALVEAUX: Jim, I talked to a number of young women and they remember those times around they were just, you know, almost babies. They were small. They were toddlers, young, young children.
When you got on the ground you said something very interesting and you shared with me is the reaction of those children when you got there.
CLANCY: You know, it so shattered people's lives to see their parents, their brothers, their sisters, slaughtered. I mean, slaughtered with machetes at check points.
If they were able to run away, if they were able to get out on their own, search for other relatives, they wanted absolutely nothing to do with adults, absolutely nothing, didn't trust anybody.
Producer Ingrid Foreman and I were on the road, we saw two small children, one about 5, one about 2-1/2, holding hands, walking down the road and Ingrid insisted.
We have to stop the car, give them some food and water and a ride. Those kids took off down a steep cliff rather than have any contact with us because they had lost all trust in adults.
MALVEAUX: These people are now adults. They are young adults themselves and they say to me the emphasis is we're all Rwandans. We're not Hutus. We're not Tutsis. We're not these rival ethnic groups. We are all Rwandans.
We're going to move forward with that kind of thinking and the people I talked to said they forgive. There are some who forgive. Does that ring true? Does that seem like that is possible?
CLANCY: You know, it's possible, but it's difficult. So difficult because I saw people when they were first brought together and a woman pointed her finger at a man and said, you were there, you were at that road block, you were killing, you killed my family.
And he was saying no, no, I didn't do it. There was a lot of denial. (Inaudible) who became the Supreme Court justice in Rwanda worked very hard for the courts where they would bring people up if they had admitted they had done wrong, if they paid restitution things would calm down.
There had to be this meeting of minds, this reconciliation. But it's still going on today. Make no mistake. It's not easy.
MALVEAUX: it's a very hard thing to do. One of the women I talked to said there was the grace that she was not able to remember the faces of those who killed her family.
She was 7 years old and she's just thankful she doesn't know who the people are, because she doesn't know whether or not she could forgive. So that was one of the --
CLANCY: It was neighbors that did it. It was done for cows. It was done for land. It was done for houses. They were told they'd get all of their belonging. So people got involved in it, one of the most horrific crimes in our lifetime.
MALVEAUX: Jim, thank you so much for putting this into perspective and into context.
CLANCY: Thank you. It's great to see those images that you captured.
MALVEAUX: There are a lot of people who were there and they want us to acknowledge that this happened and they also just want to heal and we saw a lot of that too.
CLANCY: Thanks, Suzanne.
MALVEAUX: We are learning more about a cash for hits bounty program allegedly run by the New Orleans Saints.
Ahead, shocking words from reportedly the coach at the center of the scandal. We're going to talk to a former NFL player about what it means.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MALVEAUX: Want to get more on the cash for hits bounty scandal involving the New Orleans Saints. A new audiotape is now revealing disturbing new details. The tape was released by a documentary filmmaker. It was edited so we can't confirm its authenticity. But he was filming the team back in January as the Saints were preparing for a playoff game with the San Francisco 49ers. Well, former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, he's at the center of the controversy. He's been suspended indefinitely for allegedly encouraging his players to hit other players for extra pay. I want you to listen to what Williams reportedly told players about how to handle 49ers wide receiver Kyle Williams.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREGG WILLIAMS, FORMER SAINTS DEFENSIVE COORDINATOR (voice-over): We need to find out in the first two series of the game the little wide receiver number 10 about his concussion. We need to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) get a lick on him right now. He needs to decide. He needs to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) decide.
(END VIDEO CLIP) MALVEAUX: Here to talk about this, the revelation, reaction from players, former Atlanta Falcons running back Jamal Anderson.
Jamal, great to see you here.
JAMAL ANDERSON, FORMER ATLANTA FALCONS RUNNING BACK: You too, Suzanne.
MALVEAUX: Glad to have you on.
ANDERSON: A pleasure.
MALVEAUX: Is this typical? I mean what are we listening to here?
ANDERSON: That speech?
MALVEAUX: Yes.
ANDERSON: Absolutely not. The -- you know, a defensive coach trying to rile his defense up to be physical, to attack an opposing team, to be as tough as -- those are typical things. But to do the things that Gregg Williams was talking about in that speech, to directly try to hurt a player, go after an ACL or strike him in the head, some of those things, I mean, you know, you get caught up in some of the words. I've heard for a number of years and different coaches saying, hit him in the mouth, hit him as hard as possible. But when you have a guy who's telling his players to directly go after his ACL, or you hit him in the head, I mean especially when you were warned the week before.
Here's the problem. He was warned the week before -- the Saints were warned to stop the bounty program from the NFL.
MALVEAUX: Right.
ANDERSON: Several times. But the week before this audio recording was made. Then Gregg Williams comes in there and tells his guys to strike the guys in the head, to go after his ACL. Now, coming after a player, you know, this -- everybody talks about Kyle Williams and they were trying to get him because he'd come back from a concussion.
MALVEAUX: Sure.
ANDERSON: That's not unusual, Suzanne. You want to -- you know, listen, it's in football. And offensive stars, we understand these are the types of guys on defense we're targets. We're targets every time we take the field.
MALVEAUX: So take out the guy where he's injured?
ANDERSON: Well, I'd say, try to be as physical as possible so you can remove a guy who can possibly have a factor in the outcome of the game. But this is not --
MALVEAUX: (INAUDIBLE).
ANDERSON: No.
MALVEAUX: That's not a very diplomatic way of putting it.
ANDERSON: Well, what I'm saying to you is, football is a physical sport. We don't want to change this. There are -- the physical aspects of football we love. You line up. You get to hit another guy as hard as possible with pads on. The team who's in best shape, who's the most physical, the tougher team, those are teams that win. We talk about legendary football players as tough players, but some of the dirty stuff to try to hurt other guys, I mean these are guys we went to college -- we went to college together.
I was talking about it earlier. My roommate at Utah, we -- I played against him for a number of years. We tried to tear each other up. But to personally injure another guy, that's just not -- that's not necessary, it's uncalled for. And the reaction that has happened with the Saints is based on the fact that they were warned and then this audio recording comes out, the timing of the recording is quite questionable. How the recording came out from the filmmaker and Steve Gleason's (ph) involvement is really, really unfortunate. But the damage was done. Now people can hear Gregg Williams say the type of things that he did to his football team and try to get them riled up. And it obviously didn't work. They lost the football game.
MALVEAUX: Yes.
ANDERSON: And they -- and they gave up a ton of yards.
MALVEAUX: Well, it's a good -- I think it's -- I think it's a good thing. I mean I think that, you know, shedding light on this is a good thing.
ANDERSON: Right.
MALVEAUX: I want to talk about University of Arkansas head coach -- football coach, Bobby Petrino, here. And some --
ANDERSON: Bobby Petrino, yes.
MALVEAUX: Petrino.
ANDERSON: Yes.
MALVEAUX: I knew I was going to make that mistake.
ANDERSON: No, you were -- hey, you --
MALVEAUX: We've been talking about several different folks here.
ANDERSON: Yes.
MALVEAUX: But obviously he's in some hot water here.
ANDERSON: He is.
MALVEAUX: The motorcycle accident. ANDERSON: Right.
MALVEAUX: The former employee on the back there, the young woman.
ANDERSON: Right. Bobby Petrino got into an accident on Sunday, had a press conference on Tuesday. Did not disclose in the press conference Tuesday that there was a passenger on the back of the car. We have now come to find out that said passenger -- on the back, excuse me, of his motorcycle -- was hired a week ago to work for the Arkansas Athletic Department. So now they found out there's a passenger on the back. Bobby Petrino issues -- reissues a statement saying he was involved in an inappropriate relationship with this employee who was just hired a week ago to work with the department. So it is a complete and total mess.
And this, Suzanne, from the coach who, in the middle of 2007, 13 games into the season, walked out on the Atlanta Falcons and took the job at Arkansas.
MALVEAUX: You used to play for him. So, you know, (INAUDIBLE) --
ANDERSON: I wasn't on the team at that time. But the fact of a guy -- a head coach of a football team not taking another position when the season is not even over, not even after the first year of his employment for another team. Bobby Petrino has been an interesting guy for a number of years. The reason why he continues to get jobs is because he wins a lot of football games. He has, in fact, made Arkansas Razorbacks one of the tougher teams in the SEC, 21-5 the past two season. But this is a -- this is a problem.
MALVEAUX: Yes.
ANDERSON: This is a big problem for them. And this is Bobby Petrino again. So people who know him, he's not the most honest guy. He hasn't been the most honest guy. His history speaks for itself, but he's been a heck of a football coach. So we'll see what happens.
MALVEAUX: All right, Jamal, thank you for educating me on all this.
ANDERSON: A pleasure. Always a pleasure.
MALVEAUX: This is not my area of expertise. Thank you so much, Jamal. Good to see you.
ANDERSON: You too, Suzanne.
MALVEAUX: Have a good weekend.
I want to go to Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. She's got some breaking news here about an F-18 Navy jet that has crashed near Virginia Beach, Virginia.
Barbara, what can you tell us?
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Suzanne. We are getting word now that an F-18 jet with two crew members on board did go down in Virginia Beach. We are told by the U.S. Navy the two member crew did eject safely. We're beginning to get some initial pictures from the scene from our affiliate WAVY that, as you can see, shows some destruction on the ground and the apparent fire from the crash.
Again, the early word right now is that the two-member crew ejected from the F-18, but their condition on the ground not yet known or at least not yet being discussed by the U.S. Navy. We are also told there's a grammar school in the area, but it is not in any danger from the crash. Everyone there is fine.
So we'll continue to monitor the situation an try and get a better understanding of what this damage is that we are seeing on the ground and the fire from this Navy F-18 apparently crashing in Virginia Beach. The two-man crew ejecting at this point.
MALVEAUX: Barbara, can you tell us -- give us a sense of that area, what is actually there near that crash site?
STARR: To the best of our initial indication, Suzanne, it is a residential area. The plane actually flew from Oceania Naval Air Station, not all that far away. That is a training squadron for the U.S. Navy. So we believe at this point it was on a training mission. No indication of other aircraft involved. You know, as you see, a wooded area, lots of trees, lots of power lines. But we just don't know what caused this. You know, it has just happened within the last hour. We don't know what caused the plane to go down. We will be monitoring this because we are seeing in a populated area by all indications some damage on the ground. Some fire from the crash.
Tragically, you know, these things do happen and pilots are very well trained if they begin to see they're having a mechanical problem or something, to steer away from populated areas. Pilots know how to do this. So we will have to see what the situation is on the ground. Whether there's any structures involved. Whether there is any loss of life on the ground.
Suzanne.
MALVEAUX: Barbara, do we know where these -- where the crew was taken? Have they -- have they gone to a hospital or are they still at the scene?
STARR: We don't know at this point. It is likely that rescue squads very rapidly responded to this. And if they had significant injuries, they certainly would have been taken to the nearest trauma center that would have been equipped to deal with them. Whether it is a military hospital or civilian.
There's a lot of military medical care available down in Virginia Beach. The Navy is there. The Air Force not too far away. The Marine Corps operates down there. But the military is very well experienced at responding to these situations and getting their people to safety. I guess, Suzanne, as I look, we went briefly to our Virginia Beach affiliate there which is covering this situation right now. Everybody trying to determine what this emergency response is that we're seeing on the ground. Trying to get better fidelity of what the damage is. Whether the crew even had the chance to do that, to steer away from populated areas or did something happen so suddenly that they simply had time themselves to eject from their cockpit? All matters that military air crews are very highly trained in.
Suzanne.
MALVEAUX: Do we know just at what point they ejected from the aircraft? Were they actually visible to people? How do we know that actually happened?
STARR: Well, that ejection has been confirmed to me by a U.S. Navy spokesman in the area down in Virginia Beach. This is according to the initial reports that the U.S. Navy is providing to the news media.
I can tell you from past experience, crews are very experienced in this. If they get a signal, if they get an indication that something is going wrong -- loss of hydraulics, potentially some engine failure, fire in an engine, loss of able ability to control the plane -- any of these kinds of things, they will try and steer away from a civilian area if they are, you know, here on a training mission in the United States and they are very well equipped to eject very rapidly.
What you generally find is, if it's a two-man crew, they communicate to each other because they have to eject in a certain way so as they -- you know it's basically a little rocket explosion in the seat under them that propels them into the air. They don't want to get damaged doing that. So it's a very precise procedure.
MALVEAUX: All right. Barbara, thank you very much.
I want to go to a local press conference that is taking place on the ground to get a little bit more information on this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were able to hear, Mike.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were hearing and now your mic's out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It look like van just shut the audio off there. So we'll try to stay with this live picture until we can reestablish audio. But we're now able to confirm from Oceania that this was, in fact, an FA-18 military fighter jet that crashed into this apartment building. CNN confirming that with the military. So we want to make sure we get that out there.
Two people on board. Two pilots ejected according to Tim Riley (ph) with the Virginia Beach Police -- or rather Fire Department. They ejected and were able to get out safely.
It looks like we've re-established our contact with Mike Mather. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we see Ruben.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's photojournalist Ruben Carrington there. I'm not sure if you guys can hear us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, who is not live? Are you not live?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mike, we hear you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) not. Anybody who --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, well apparently we want to just go ahead and take back control of the reins here. Of course it is breaking news and we're getting these images back live.
MALVEAUX: We want to go on the phone to George Pilkington. He is eyewitness to the plane crash. He is owner of Cape Henry Racket Club.
Are you -- can you hear us?
GEORGE PILKINGTON, WITNESSED NAVY JET CRASH (via telephone): Yes, I can.
MALVEAUX: Tell us what you saw.
PILKINGTON: Actually I was on the way to the club and within two or 300 yards of where the plane crashed, it came over top of my truck, emptying out jet fuel with his nose up. And it just plowed into an apartment building.
MALVEAUX: Do you have any idea if anybody was in that apartment building? Did you see anyone inside the apartment building or around that apartment building?
PILKINGTON: Well, I really hope -- I hope not, but it is a -- it is a residential apartment complex. And one building was completely leveled. And when the plane crashed, debris was flying into the other surrounding buildings and caused them to catch fire. So I hope not. But it was a fairly large apartment building.
MALVEAUX: What did you see when that crash occurred, when it crashed into the apartment building? Did you see people scatter?
PILKINGTON: Yes. Well, initially, you know, it shook the ground when it hit. Initially everyone was running to the scene. And there was a couple of large explosions. And then within seconds, everyone was fleeing from the scene. But, you know, even the explosion afterwards, I'm not sure if it was gas lines or something on the plane or the fuel itself, but there was a couple of large explosions after it crashed.
MALVEAUX: How long was it that you actually saw this plane in the air before it crashed? What did it look like it was doing?
PILKINGTON: Well, within a couple -- within a couple seconds. It was coming from the direction of the actual base. And the area surrounding it is pretty heavily occupied. There's a small marsh area that they generally take when they're landing, where there are no homes or apartments. But this one again appeared -- and when it came in, it was emptying out fuel and it wasn't flying normal. The nose was facing more upward and the tail end was down.
MALVEAUX: Did you see anybody in the plane when you saw it crash or did you see anybody who actually ejected from the plane?
PILKINGTON: I did not eject -- they must have ejected before they got to this point. And again, it was coming in -- it was coming in low. And we're used to low flying jets over here, because they flay constantly and it's really not a big deal. This one, I guess just because it - -
