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CNN Newsroom
The Death of Trayvon Martin
Aired April 07, 2012 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: I'm Don Lemon. Wait until you see what we're working on for you tonight, CNN after dark, where most shows dare not go.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HAL UHRIG, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN'S ATTORNEY: The reason that Trayvon Martin is dead is not because he was black or because he wore a hoody. He decided to smack somebody in their face and break their nose.
LEMON (voice-over): The case that has just about everyone seeing color, black, white, and every shade in between. When it comes to murder in America, does color really matter?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would just like some justice for my husband.
LEMON: Her husband, shot 28 times by police. Get this -- he's a former cop who survived. Now he says he's being railroaded by a blue wall of silence.
High paid bounty hunter in fancy NFL uniforms? A cash for hits program encouraged by the coach. What would the New Orleans saints thinking? They wanted to win?
REP. PAUL RYAN (R), WISCONSIN: Governor Mitt Romney.
LEMON: Don't they make a handsome pair? The budding romance between Mitt and Paul. Is Rom-Ryan the GOP ticket or is it Mittorum? The delicate dance of courting a VP.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Thank you for joining us everyone. Those stories in just a moment, but first, the news you need to know right now.
In Tulsa, Oklahoma, three people are dead. Two are seriously wounded but expected to survive after a series of shootings that began Friday morning. The killer is believed to be a white male, all the victims are black. But police are not currently calling this tragedy racially motivated.
As bad as this looks, this scene could have been much worse. The navy is investigation what caused a jet fighter to crush into an apartment complex in Virginia veto yesterday. Seven people were injured, but one Navy admiral calls this a miracle that no one was killed. He credits the two pilots who waited until the last minute to eject, one of them, a student pilot by the way.
A grand jury is expected to convene next week to take up the case of neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman. He's admitted to shooting and killing Trayvon Martin.
Zimmerman says he shot the teen in self-defense, but a grand jury may not be need here. Special prosecutor Angela Corey could decide to file charges on her own or delay the process if she needs more time to develop her case.
More now on this story and much, much more. It's been 41 days since Trayvon Martin was shot and killed. The admitted shooter, a neighborhood watch volunteer.
(BEGIN VIDE CLIP)
CROWD: No justice, no peace!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So all of this has added to more than a month of outrage, protests and weeks of media coverage. We've been bombarded with images of crime scenes, conversations about shootings. Gun laws.
You would think from all this coverage that we're a nation overrun with crime and lawless people, just waiting to gun each other down any chance we get. And from the wall-to-wall coverage, you might even think that racist trigger happy cops and other law enforcement types are just out there looking to kill black men. After all, Trayvon Martin is just the latest in a string of high profile cases of unarmed black men who went to an early grave at the hands of law enforcement, who eventually got off or got light sentences.
1999, unarmed, Amadou Diallo shot and killed by four NYPD officers who fired 41 shots. They were acquitted.
2006, Sean Bell, unarmed, shot several times by the NYPD while leaving his bachelor party. The cops were exonerated.
2009, Oscar Grant, unarmed, fatally shot in the back by transit officers on a subway platform in front of horrified passengers in Oakland, California. The officer was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter, not second degree murder as expected.
And then there's the "what about course," the people who keep asking what about black on black crime, talk about that. What about how often black people kill white people, what about, Brown and Brown, what about, what about. You get the picture.
It is a serious and uncomfortable subject, but the best opportunity that we've seen to learn comes in the form of humor, in "the Daily Show."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JON STEWART, HOST, THE DAILY SHOW: Lately there's been a new suggestion that we shouldn't be focusing on this one incident so much at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody says a word about almost half of the murders in the United States are of black people and 90 percent are committed by other black people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: National media doesn't do stories about black on black crime.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is the outrage about the black on black crime?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody has a march for them. It's outrageous.
STEWART: For more with Jon, wasting your black correspondent Larry Wilborn - Larry.
LARRY WILBORN, BLACK REPORTER: Thank you Jon. Two things, one, no one has marches against black on black violence. Well, these are just a few from the last six months. What do you think these people are doing? Do you think there's that many Tyler Perry movie openings?
(LAUGHTER)
STEWART: I think there might be that many Tyler Perry movies.
WILBORN: And number two, the difference between the Trayvon Martin shooting and black on black crime is that word crime. You know. That thing that people get arrested for? Since the court of public opinion is the only court that will take the case, everyone feels the need to jump in and defend or condemn Zimmerman. To the right, he's an unfairly victimized deadly do right. And to the left, he's Elmer Fudd hunting down black people. Be very quiet. I'm racially profiling Negroes.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All right. So, here are the facts. Check them out on FBI.gov for yourself if you don't believe me. In 2011, preliminary figures show violent crime in the United States down 6.4 percent, that includes murders.
Now to doj.gov. The latest comprehensive in United States' department of justice report released in 2005 shows most people are murdered by someone of the same race. Ninety four percent of black murder victims are murdered by black people. Eighty six percent of white murder victims are murdered by white people.
So that brings us to the "what about chorus" and the media. So, the number of black on white and white, and white on black murders are far lower, why so much outrage and focus and criticism about the media's coverage of stories like the Trayvon Martin case and the color of crime in this country and particularly murders?
I'm going to pose all those questions and many more to the folks who know a lot about the subject. People you see there on your screen. An expert on diversity, a comedian turned social critic, a woman whose husband was shot 28 times by police officers.
The color of crime, murder suspects and victims, our subject tonight. And that's not all we're discussing. There are people calling for the head of a New Orleans Saints assistant coach caught on tape urging players to hurt the other team in the worst way. Frank Tarkenton is leading the PAC on that which Mall Anderson might not be part behind them.
Also in chat tonight, who would Mitt Romney - who would be pick to take the Republican national prime or the national convention? He has been seeing courting few fellows. We will talk about that. And --
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)
LEMON: It's catchy, but Mary J., really, fried chicken? What's next, watermelon? Is it racist?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right, we give you the big buildup in the black before this. My special guests are here to talk about crime and color. And I'm going to get you up to speed on them in just a moment.
But first though, I wanted you guys to look at this some stats on black on black crime. These are from the department of justice. It's the figures from 2005. The murder victim rate was six times higher in the black community compared to the white community. And in that same year, when comparing rates for people committing murder, it was seven times higher for blacks than whites.
This is crucial. From 1976 to 2005, 94 percent of black victims were murdered by black people and as we said, they're usually murdered. People are usually murdered by people of their own race, including white people. It's 84 percent for white people.
My guests are remarkable people and I'm looking to them for their unique inside.
Buck Davis is a diversity expert. Welcome back. Goldie Taylor, renowned cultural critic. You know, Goldie. She's here as much as I am. And some of the best social commentary has come from comedians, from Will Rogers to Jon Stewart to Larry Wilborn. As we have been seeing so - political comedian Dean Obeidallah is joining us from Columbus, Ohio.
Good to see you, Dean. Again, Dean and I sat on a plane a couple weeks ago just be co-incident right next to each other.
You've heard all those discussions, Goldie. So, you have heard about - as I call them, but what about for us, you and I talked about that last week. You were doing all this coverage. The media is doing all this coverage on the Trayvon Martin case. But what about black on black crime? What about white on white crime or white on black, black on white? That's not the Trayvon Martin story. Those were legitimate stories and now, we are going to talk about. What do you make - what do you garner from the numbers and what you saw on our block?
GOLDIE TAYLOR, POLITICAL ANALYST, SOCIAL CRITIC: Well, first of all, the numbers are very personal to me. You know, black on black crime hit our house in a very specific way. There isn't a man in our family older than 28 years old. And so, when you look towards HIV, sickle cell, stroke, heart disease, and murder, those men aren't there by their own choice but because someone or something took them away.
My father and brother were both murdered. All of those crimes are unsolved. And so, that's very specific to me. But what I make of the coverage is all of these are very relevant, very important stories to cover. You've got so much real estate, you know, on a news cast. But if you want to find black on black crime, if you want o find white on white crime, tune in at 5:00, 6:00 and 10:00 in our local news every night because it gets covered. It gets covered every day.
What isn't getting, you know, the covered site if it deserves are the number, the sheer multitude of protests of people coming together around this country to talk about what's happening in their communities.
It happened in my home town at East St. Louis. It happened in Philadelphia. There are dozens upon dozens of marches that happen in Chicago every year that, you know, people are really fighting to combat these issues in a real significant way.
LEMON: And you were shaking your head when you said heavy, because you watch the news and all you said are the mug shots. And it used to be the perp walk that they about a lot (INAUDIBLE).
BUCK DAVIS, DIVERSITY EXPERT: Yes. I'm really excited about the attention that white people have placed on black on black crime. And then last week I never heard people bring up black on black crime to this extent. And I think it's a really important issue. As you said, most murders in this country occur interracially. Black people are killing black folk, white people are killing white people. Rich black people aren't killing rich black people.
LEMON: Right.
DAVIS: Rich white people are killing rich white people. It's people who are struggling. I feel like that white folk have tossed in this black on black notion to divert the true issue of racism in this country. I feel like this conversation is so hard for us to have. It is filled with such poison in this country that we have created, that it makes the conversation almost unbearable. To the point where if I can say you people are harder on your people than our people are harder on your people, it removes me from the equation.
LEMON: Yes. Interesting. Hang on, Goldie. I want to bring in Dean. Dean, it was funny. You and I were on the plane as a brown person, right? And we tweeted, a black man and Muslim man walk onto a plane, board a plane, dot, dot, dot, and it was a funny moment.
But what do you make of this conversation we were talking about, black and white? And even brown on brown crime, it's still the same thing. People are murdered by people of their own race.
DEAN OBEIDALLAH, CO-FOUNDER, NEW YORK ARAB-AMERICAN COMEDY FESTIVAL: They are, but to me, the idea that this is the destruction I think resonates as true and despicable. It's being brought up by conservatives to distract us from the Trayvon Martin story. That should be the focus right now. The facts of the case should Zimmerman be arrested, I think of course, he should be. But that should be the focus. This is a distraction by people on the right who I don't honestly think care about black on black crime whatsoever. It's a distraction when play book on the right, same thing with Rush Limbaugh. A different, of course, different states involved, but the idea of attacking Bill Maher, saying Rush is bad but Bill Maher is really just as bad. It has strike has when the true case, so Rush Limbaugh got off. We didn't focus on that. Destruction with the Trayvon Case, to me, I find, frankly, despicable and I think it's a truly distraction by the right.
LEMON: It's very interesting. And listen, I want to say to the entire panel here, when we talk about the case about racism, when we talk about media focus, whatever, it has nothing to do with the guilt or innocence of George Zimmerman. No one is saying George Zimmerman is guilty because we're covering this story or because there's a peg to cover a legitimate new story. No one is saying he's innocent. But people have saying by the amount of coverage that's been had on the story that in some way people are castigating and finding George Zimmerman guilty.
TAYLOR: Sure, sure. You know, at the end of the day, if you look at the department of justice stats and you look at the African- American community, one to two percent of the African-American community is committing nearly half of the violent crimes in the country.
LEMON: Right.
TAYLOR: And to turn around and stereotype an entire race of people, an entire culture of people because of what one or two percent are out doing today, and they're being investigated, convicted, and going to jail for various very severe and very lengthy sentence to stereotype based on that I think that's a misnomer.
LEMON: All right. Stand by to my panel. Man, great discussion. There's another layer to this discussion, though. Black and blue. What do cops see first, even when it comes to one of their own, the crime or color of your skin? Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would just like some justice for my husband.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Her husband, shot 28 times by police. Get this -- he's a former cop who survived. Now he says he's being railroaded by a blue wall of silence.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Been watching your reactions on social media. So, @donlemoncnn, @donlemoncnn. Thank you so much. Comments are really going crazy on twitter. We appreciate it.
Crucially that there is a police shooting case that is garnering a lot of attention on social media and I'm not talking about the Trayvon martin case. It's a curious case of Howard Morgan, a former Chicago police officer, eight years on the force. But during a traffic stop in 2005, members of the same department he worked for shot him 28 times after saying he pulled a weapon on them first. He survived and this week Howard Morgan was sentenced to 40 years for attempted murder and discharging a firearm at a police officer.
His wife, Rosalind, is here live and we are going to talk to her in a moment. But first, his story from Julian Cruz of CNN affiliate, WGN.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JULIAN CRUZ, REPORTER, WGN (voice-over): Holding a picture of her husband, an emotional Rosalind Morgan talks to reporters after the sentencing.
ROSALIND MORGAN, HOWARD MORGAN'S WIFE: He's a man of God, a beautiful husband, a beautiful grandfather.
CRUZ: Morgan and a growing number of community leaders say it never added up, the police account of the fierce gun battle back in 2005, where investigators say Morgan, a police officer with the railroad and a former Chicago police officer himself, fired 17 rounds at his former comrades, wounding three officers. Defense lawyers pointed to 28 gunshots wounds suffered by Morgan. But earlier this year, a criminal courts jury found Morgan guilty of three counts of attempted murder.
MICHAEL SHIELDS, FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE: I think the jury spoke loud and clear. And, you know, they did not believe this defendant's argument. This is not some type a conspiracy.
CRUZ: You may remember Morgan was acquitted on lesser charges back in 2007, in the same incident Morgan supporters say that they'll appeal on the grounds that the retrial constitutes double jeopardy.
MORGAN: If double jeopardy is not applied to Mr. Morgan, then who can double jeopardy be applied to? I would just like some justice for my husband! All these pastors and leaders and internationally well known people around the world have been calling us and saying they don't believe it.
CRUZ: Morgan had been free on bond but he was taken into custody today in a tense cook county courtroom packed with police officers and Morgan supporters.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Julian Cruz, my colleague, WGN. There she is, right there, Howard Morgan's wife, Rosalind. She joins me now.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Let's talk before we talk about guilt or innocence, and the court battle and what's going on, what about media coverage? Why don't you think the national media -- why do you think the national media hasn't paid attention to your husband's case until now?
MORGAN: I don't know why they have not paid attention to it. Because I believe it's a high profile case. And it seems like they want to act as though it never took place. However, it did take place. I contacted so many channels and asked them would they please view the story regarding my husband, but I got very little or no feedback at all.
LEMON: Mrs. Morgan, your husband, in court, they did say that your husband pulled a weapon first and shot a police officer. He got 40 years. There are many, I guess especially those in the police department who say hey, your husband got what he deserved. Not to be shot but to be found guilty.
MORGAN: I don't believe that, because my husband is not guilty. My husband would not pull a weapon. He's been a police officer for over 21 years. He loved being a police officer, to serve and protect the communities and society.
Now, ask yourself why would my husband, one block from our home, literally around the corner from our home in the Lawndale area, pull his weapon after being a policeman for over 21 years in law enforcement? Why would he just pull his weapon out and shoot three police officers? And he's a policeman himself? That's ludicrous. I'll never believe that. And anyone that would know my husband would never believe it themselves.
LEMON: Mrs. Morgan, we reached out to the Chicago police department for a statement. We didn't get any specific response from them. You have said there are many discrepancies to this case. What do you mean by that?
MORGAN: Well, if they said my husband pulled his weapon, which he did not, I don't believe that. The second thing is he was snatched out of his car, pushed down to the ground, feeling hands all over him. They took his weapon from him. So if they took his weapon from him, how could he have fired his weapon? They were surrounding him, I'm told, and 21 times in the back parts of his body, they shot him. That wasn't enough. Then seven times in the front parts of his body. They shot him more times. Why would he take his weapon and fire 17 rounds of ammunition at police officers when he was a policeman himself? That's ludicrous.
LEMON: And Mrs. Morgan --
MORGAN: There was a first trial.
LEMON: We're going to be following this particular story here on CNN and on this show, you can better believe it. We appreciate you joining us here on CNN. Thank you so much. I can only imagine what you are going through.
MORGAN: Thank you.
LEMON: We appreciate it.
We're going to move on now. It's been very heavy here. We have covered some very serious things. Being shot 28 times and surviving. So, we're going to take a pause from all the crime and violence and race in America to re-examine many of these serious issues. We are going to do it through humor. We are going to try.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to have a racist time-out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: America, for the next five minutes, no matter what is said, nobody is racist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: All right. So listen, I'm just concern. We are going to rip it off. We're just rip it off the daily show. We are going to try that here. CNN's version of a racism free zone, and this lineup is dying to weigh in, I'm sure. So set your watches, a racism time- out, straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. So, let's do it, let's take a, quote, "racist time-out," have a racist free zone as we said before the break. And I want to listen to Jon Stewart and his, quote, "black reporter, senior black reporter, Larry Wilborn."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STEWART: But it seems we can't even begin to talk about this actual case because it dissolves into people leveling or defending themselves against charges of racism.
WILBORN: Exactly, Jon. That's exactly right. That's why we're going to have a racist time-out.
STEWART: What?
WILBORN: America, for the next five minutes, no matter what is said, nobody is racist.
STEWART: A racist time-out? This is --
WILBORN: Jon, focus. The point is this, if we remove accusations of racism, we can finally talk calmly about the racial elements of this story.
STEWART: So there is, some racial elements in this story, some racism in the story?
WILBORN: Are you kidding me, Jon? We have a Hispanic guy with a Jewish name killing a black guy. It's got to be in there somewhere. Good Lord.
OK. Follow me Jon. George Zimmerman sees a black guy in a hoody. Black guy, some hoodies have reportedly been breaking into homes. So, noticing him not racist maybe a little racist.
STEWART: But Zimmerman follows him even though the police told him not to. That's got to be racism.
WILBORN: No, that's just stupid. OK. And after plant, we have different accounts of what happened. But the one thing we know for sure is Zimmerman killed Trayvon, and the police let him go.
STEWART: So the police were racist.
WILBORN: Not this time. They were following the law. According to stand your ground, as long as Zimmerman felt threatened, he had the right to respond with legal force.
STEWART: So stand your ground is racist. That is -- I get it now.
WILBORN: No, you don't get it. Shut up, Jon. With this defense, you don't even have to go in front of a jury. You tell the cops at the scene of the crime you were standing your ground and they'll give you the benefit of the doubt. That's the culprit.
STEWART: Ah-ha! The benefit of the doubt is racist!
WILBORN: Exactly, Jon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: And he goes on to say that's because black men are never given a rarely given the benefit of the doubt. OK, my panel is back.
Dean, you're the comedian here.
OBEIDALLAH: Yes. it was --
LEMON: The truth is often spoken in jest, sometimes. I thought that was a - I tweeted out when I saw that, it was brilliant. OBEIDALLAH: It was. But if you call me a terrorist or a camel jockey, I'll never forgive you, Don. I want you to know that, Don. You can call me Arab and Muslim. So, that's what I'm saying.
We can call each other names. We are being playful. I think we all know the difference, frankly, between playful and demonizing and hateful and having a good time with each other. And I think that's the standard we need. This war on comedy, or this war on political correctness full correcting world that we live in, where you can't say anything; I think we're adult enough to know the difference between someone being hateful and being playful.
LEMON: Go ahead, Goldie.
TAYLOR: I don't know. I mean, Dean and I have been in this before. You know, we traded some barbs over twitter about what I thought were stereotypes about people who live and work in the south.
And he said hey, hey, back off. It's just comedy but as a southerner, you know, I took offense. And so, I think it really is about context. It has to be about context. Look, I don't know what happened to Trayvon. I don't know what happened that night. I don't know why he was stopped. I don't know for sure why the police didn't fully investigate. I don't know. I do know that a really bad thing happened and it ought to go to court. And you know, I think the jury just ought to sort it out.
LEMON: And there are many people who are saying remember. This is our racist free zone, Dean. So, hope we can jump in. You have already said. See, I can't say the words you said, right, like you can't say --
OBEIDALLAH: You can't, I can say anything about white people because you can't offend white people. It's impossible.
(LAUGHTER)
OBEIDALLAH: That's offense white people. I'm not kidding. You say whatever you want. You can mock the majority. There's no term that has a stigma. If you call me a sand n, there's a stigma on that. I'm going to be upset with you.
LEMON: And see. You can say the camel thing and then you say sand. But as a black person, I can say nigger. Like I can say that word without -- but someone else says it, it's like, my God. We can't do that.
DAVIS: I can say it one time.
TAYLOR: I mean, there are horrible words that I can write with, you know. I can't say honky or cracker or any of those other things but I have white friends who can absolutely say them, you know. And they can use them in jest or they can, you know, use them as you know sort of self-depreciated humor, they can. I can say some other words that I choose not to, maybe on air.
I just wish that we could have a conversation and come together as we are rather than who we think we are.
LEMON: Go ahead, Dean.
OBEIDALLAH: Don, if I say to Buck, hey man, you're a cracker, would you be upset with that? I mean, honestly, even if I said that hatefully, would that offend you?
DAVIS: No, not at all. Because I've not had decades of oppression tossed in my face as a white person.
LEMON: But I would be offended by that. He said that to you and I heard that, I would be offended. That's the weird thing. But also, to -- when someone calls me like - you know, we talked about the racist tweets that I've been getting in people, I'm getting them now.
OBEIDALLAH: Don.
LEMON: Yes.
OBEIDALLAH: I apologize.
LEMON: See? That's the thing. People are apologizing. Why, because you're --
OBEIDALLAH: I sent them to you.
LEMON: Because you are too polite. Because you're too politically correct. You are too polite. This is racism free, so why not say it. Don't feel bad for me. That only motivates me to speak the truth, right? Because you can't -- not everyone is going to agree with you.
And when I said that word, I'm going to say the, n word, I just - I hate saying the n word. I think it takes the value out of what that word ready means especially when we are reporting it. And I'm not sure what color of the reporter is, I think someone should say that person calls someone nigger, instead of saying the n word, because I think it sanitizes it.
DAVIS: Well, and I think you confuse white people when you use the word, the n word, because if you're saying if you can use it, why can't we use it?
LEMON: No, no, no. I don't mean in that context. I'm not talking about on the street. I hate it in music -- listen. Listen. Hang on.
LEMON: I hate it in music. I hate in those kinds of things. I hate one when it's massage and it's in rap and all that. But what I'm saying in, in the reporting of a story, you should say the word not to sanitize it.
TAYLOR: White people aren't confused by the word nigger. I mean, if they - I mean, when they say it towards someone else who is black, they mean it, generally speaking, in a derogatory fashion.
DAVIS: We're not confused about the word. We know what the word is. We're confused because you get to use it and we don't.
LEMON: Go ahead, Dean.
OBEIDALLAH: I cannot say the n word, honestly. It would trouble me to no end. And I don't know why. I think maybe it's the world I grew up in.
LEMON: Let's just say we're making the white people and black people in the control room uncomfortable (INAUDIBLE).
OBEIDALLAH: That's good. People should feel uncomfortable.
LEMON: Don't go anywhere. Don't go anywhere. We got lots more to talk about, all right? Including this, the November election is approaching and GOP front-runner, Mitt Romney, still doesn't have a date to the dance. So, who is on his short list for VP?
There's talk of a romance between Romney and Wisconsin congressman, Paul Ryan. Other names include Senator Marko Rubio and Governor Nikki Haley. But they say they're not interested. Are they just playing hard to get? I'm just wondering.
Goldie Taylor, Dean Obeidallah, they're going to join me once again to talk about that. We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Yes, the NFL hoped bounty gate was over, but this scandal over a pay for paying program run by the New Orleans Saints is still in the headlines, mostly because of a tape that's stunned football fans. I want you to listen to it.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GREGG WILLIAMS, NEW ORLEANS' DEFENSIVE COORDINATOR: Remember, whatever it takes, whatever it takes, so get in the bus that back to that airport, and get ready for the next one. Respect comes from fear. This is how you get respected n this league.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That is former New Orleans defensive coordinator Gregg Williams. There's no doubt Williams wants his players to intimidate the other team. For his part, the league has suspended him indefinitely. But it was another clip that showed how far he wanted them to go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: We need to decide whether Crabtree wants to be (bleep) prima donna or he wants to be a tough guy. We need to find that out. He becomes human when we (bleep) take out that outside ACL.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That's Williams apparently telling his team to hit a player, Michael Crabtree, and to deliberately hurt a ligament in his knee. This audiotape has pushed some people to call the William suspension to be made permanent. One person who would like to see Williams banned is NFL hall of famer Fran Tarkenton.
Earlier, I asked the former quarterback whether this kind of tough talk was typical in locker rooms. He didn't mess around when he said that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRAN TARKENTAN, NFL HALL OF FAMER: It's not typical locker room talk. Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry, are rolling over in their graves. This has never happened before in the NFL. This s - as know them, I said the case. I never heard of any coach like Gregg Williams who did that. He is a coward. You're a coward, Gregg Williams.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Did mince words. Fran played in the 70s in different area, the NFL from today's game.
Ahead, Jamal Anderson, a football player who was on the field, a bit more recently, gives us his take.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
Two big names, Mary J. Blige and Burger King. The combination sounds like -- it should be a commercial success, but here's what came out of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's in the new chicken snack wrap?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's in the new chicken snack wrap?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What's in the new chicken snack wrap? Mary?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: It's catchy, right? What do you think? They're dancing.
(LAUGHTER)
DAVIS: I'm re-enforcing the negative stereotypes around white people that they can't dance.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: So any way, it is catchy. When we played it in the newsroom, it's like, wow, that is catchy. My thing is I don't know if you guys ever saw tosh point O, he has a thing, is it racist. So, I asked. Some people thought it was, and is it racist? What do you think? TAYLOR: I don't think its racist, I think it's dumb. I make television ads, radio ads for a living. It's what I do. T's multiple for marking that represent a number of global brands. But whoever the copywriter is should be fired. T was just that copy. And whoever did Mary J. Blige's hair should be fired.
(LAUGHTER)
JAMAL ANDERSON, FORMER NFL PLAYER: You see. Mary Blige is getting paid. Here's a thing. There are a lot of southern stereotypes about us, folk. If Burger King was going to pay me $2 million to sing about eating grits or kissing my cousin, I might do it.
Listen. This is -- for Mary has been fantastic. This is the first error and just because it was a bad commercial.
LEMON: I know. In the open, Dean, I felt a little bad, because I said. Check n Mary really, what's next, watermelon. I know. I was pushing a little bit. But Mary -- people love Mary.
Dean, there is some humor. There's got to be a humorous moment here.
OBEIDALLAH: I loved the commercial. That's the problem. I think it's good. I love chicken. I want to buy the chicken. I was going to say, she's a black face, she's singing about chicken. I was so --
LEMON: She is black. She's natural black face.
OBEIDALLAH: Well, I honestly don't know the problem with the ad, because she's singing about chicken, because black people and white people like chicken. I love chicken. On my case, it's my favorite food in the world. Why is that a problem? She's not dressed like a chicken or something, you know, really demeaning. I'm serious.
LEMON: You're just stereotype. Buck, go ahead. What did you say?
DAVIS: Well, Wendy Williams said there are three things she loves you'll never see her do on TV. One, she say I love chicken. I will never eat chicken on TV. I'm not going to eat watermelon or I'm not going to drink some fruit punch drink because it reinforces stereotypes about people.
TAYLOR: The next, the many problems that Wendy Williams, I love fried chicken. I'm going to eat it wherever I like. I love watermelon, I'm going to eat it wherever I like.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Here's the thing, I -- political correctness just arks me. Do you think this is political correctness gone run amok by doing this?
TAYLOR: In some regards, I do. But, you know, the heart of the matter is, it was poorly written and poorly executed.
LEMON: OK. I want to move on now. I want to move on to the morning show wars. Katie Couric was on "GOOD MORNING AMERICA, ABC - so, NBC puts Sarah Palin it goes 'Today Show." Goldie, who do you think won?
TAYLOR: I think Sarah Palin won the ratings war. I mean, it's - there were many people who said they would not watch the "Today" show that morning or ever again after Sarah Palin was on. But, the fact of the matter s, although she had a rocky airing, it was, you know, beat Katie Couric and turned in another winning show.
DAVIS: Yes. And what was interesting for me, is knowing the behind the scenes dynamic talent, to have Katie Couric come in, promote her that heavily and then Robin who has been getting all the ratings, who has gone in vacation like what the -- and then Sarah Palin for Ann who is an elegant and just a fantastic journalist, I think it was like wait a minute, who I just -- and I love Katie.
TAYLOR: I could live another 100 years without hearing Sarah Palin's voice again, and I would be just fine without that. But -- and Robin Roberts is absolutely the most gracious woman I've ever met.
LEMON: All right. Stick around. We'll talk about a lot of stuff coming up. NFL bounty hope - we are running out of time here. But let's see. I thought this promo was funny for ABC and "GOOD MORNING AMERICA" with Katie.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we are thrilled to have you, Katie.
KATIE COURIC, JOURNALIST: Thank you, Matt. I mean, George.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. Welcome back, everyone. You've heard the tape earlier of Gregg Williams asking his players to hurt the other team and you heard Fran Tarkenton who was appalled about it.
Here's Jamal Anderson. He is a former running back for the Atlanta falcons. You played in a different era. Do you think that this talk is typical in locker rooms? Or do you agree with Fran?
ANDERSON: I have never -- I played started playing football when I was 7-years-old. I never had a coach on any team I played for -- I played on both sides of the ball. I played offense. No, I played defense until I got into college and a little bit then. But I never had a coach direct me or any team I've been on to specifically hurt certain areas of a player.
LEMON: People are going to go, come on, Jamal.
ANDERSON: No, no. LEMON: This is how coaches talk. This is what happens in the locker room.
ANDERSON: I say this to you. I'm not -- people are talking about Gregg Williams never playing and should be banned from the league. I don't believe that.
LEMON: You don't think he should be banned?
ANDERSON: No, no. I don't believe that. I think he's been a good coach n the NFL for a number of years. He's the face of this scandal and rightfully so. And of course, now, we have the audio recording. The Saints were doing it wrong. The Saints were told to stop. The Saints continued to do what they were doing, OK?
But that doesn't mean you throw away the whole guy's career. The type of coach he is and the way he got the Saints to play with aggression, by the way, the Saints won the ring. Right, wrong, people are trying to kill all that right now. Listen. It's a terrible situation. It should have stopped.
LEMON: All right, listen. I have to say. I am from Louisiana. I love the Saints. My mom is in love with Drew Brees. She calls him Drew Breesy, my baby, right? She's like, don't hurt him. Don't hurt him. Breesy, whatever. Love it.
But wrong is wrong, and to think that this happened to a city that needed it so much, a team that needed to become America's team.
ANDERSON: It's terrible, Don. It's terrible that this is now the end cap for what the Saints have done for the last couple of year. It's been a fantastic story. You had Katrina. They came back. They played tough. Obviously, you know, they won a super bowl, but to say that the guy should be banned forever, that's very, very strong tough. The athlete is going to be gone for a couple of years, rightfully so.
LEMON: I hear players saying, OK, this is trouble, you know, either he should be -- even Fran says he thinks he should be prosecuted. So, I hear players speaking out strongly about this. But the fans, the people who play the fantasy football and all this, I see it online. But this is the one everybody does this.
ANDERSON: Well, they are football players. Listen, defensive players, they need to be aggressive. You want your defense to tackle. You want people to hit hard. Those are the defenders I want on my football team today. We were talking about the other day, some of the toughest guys in football. Those are the guys I want on my defense. You want your guys to -- you hear all these different cliches in locker rooms to focus. Punch him in the mouth, hit him hard.
But to tell your team to go right after somebody's knee or head over and over, now, telling the Saints to specifically go after a player who was injured the week before to try get him out, tough sport. This is a physical, tough sport. You want your guys to be aggressive. You want your guys to attack. Look at me getting hot about this. I want to play football. TAYLOR: Goldie, he's sweating. Do you have a towel or something?
(CROSSTALK)
ANDERSON: I'm getting hot, man.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: All right. Well, once the lights go out, anything can happen and it did. CNN after dark, final thoughts, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STAN BROCK, FOUNDER, REMOTE AREA MEDICAL: All right. Take care of these numbers. They represent several hundred dollars worth of medical care.
The first people who arrived yesterday --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love with constant pain every day.
BROCK: They spend the night in their cars. Some of them pitch tents.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have lumps in my breasts.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Been here a long time, but it's worth it.
BROCK: I understand what it's like to be penniless, homeless, and uninsured. My name is Stan Brock. I'm the founder of remote area medical. We provide free care for the underserved.
In the beginning, it was an airborne operation in the overseas areas. Today, I would say at least 60 percent of our work is here in the United States.
How many people are here to see the dentist? About 85 percent of all of the people that come are really looking for dentistry and vision.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good. How about the next line down?
BROCK: We don't ask you whether you have insurance or whether you have a job or are you a citizen of the United States. The only requirement is that you have to show up early. Remote Area Medical has seen over half a million people free. This is number 663 of these expeditions, as we call them.
Well, you have a pair of glasses, huh?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. It really does -- it really does help.
BROCK: Well, I'm delighted.
The patients are marvelous. They're so grateful for what we were able to do for them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's so clear.
BROCK: There's no feeling like that, knowing you helped someone. It's just great.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All right. So this is getting close to the top of the hour. And we've had our come to Jesus moment on the show. So, final thoughts on the benediction there, Goldie Taylor?
TAYLOR: I think the benediction is this country cannot reach its highest good until we stop seeing one another for our attributes rather than our actions. Judge people for who they are, not who you think they are.
LEMON: Amen. Well?
ANDERSON: Football, it is a violent sport. It's a tough sport. It's a physical sport. But what Gregg Williams did is not what most football coaches do. It is still the ultimate team sport, a fantastic sport. You got to be tough. You got to be physical. But this guy is not the example of how most coaches are. It's still the great sport you know and love. And we are number one for a reason. Keep watching us and we love for you to keep watching.
(LAUGHTER)
DAVIS: The bounty is a horrible thing, but Goldie has offered me $25 if I'll trip Jamal on the way out of the studio.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
DAVIS: And take that chicken sandwich out of your pocket.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: In all seriousness though. When you said a lot, as a white man -- in all seriousness, what is your come to Jesus benediction moment?
DAVIS: My hope tonight is that, specifically for white people. That you have listened to this conversation with your best self tonight, that you have suspended any of those small voices in your head that might be doubting perspectives at the table in hopes that you're walking away, seeing things a little differently than you had at the beginning of the hour.
LEMON: OK. Yes. I would like to read them. Go ahead and put them in the prompter and I will read them. But, I just have to say. My little come to Jesus moment is - and there's - put in the prompter, not on the screen and will read them a little bit later.
I think my come to Jesus moment about the show is being able to say the n word on the air -- you can take those tweets down. Thank you.
To be able to say the n word on the air and to say for Dean to say to be able to say sand n word and all that. That's how we should be talking, right? This is cable news, late at night, at 10:00 at night. It's what we all need to do in a conversation we all need to have. And by the way, because we're having this conversation doesn't mean that we're racist or race-baiting or that we're presuming guilt for George Zimmerman. It's a great conversation to have. You saw what we had above the screen there, some of the tweets. Thank you so much. We appreciate all of your reactions tonight. My twitter feed is going crazy. It's @donlemoncnn. What's yours?
DAVIS: @talkaboutbuckdavis.
LEMON: And what's yours?
TAYLOR: I'm @goldietaylor.
ANDERSON: And I'm @jamalthedirtybird.
LEMON: Yes. And I forgot what Dean's s.
TAYLOR: @Deanofcomedy.
DAVIS: Deanofcommedy.
LEMON: @deanofcomedy.
People, CNN after dark. Good night.
