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Legalizing Prostitution; Arresting the Johns, Not the Ladies; A Ban On America's Game; Richard Grenell Quits as Romney's Foreign Policy Spokesman; Ashton Kutcher Ad Controversy; Mother Endangers Her 6-year-old Daughter
Aired May 05, 2012 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon. Thank you for joining us. The news you need to know right now. Let me update you real quick.
Arraignment today for five of the men accused of plotting the 9/11 attacks, including confessed mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. All five stayed mostly silent during the proceedings which stretched the hearing out for hours today.
The White House. Race to the White House. It is on. President Obama held his first two official campaign rallies today in Ohio and then another in Virginia. Two must-win battleground states for both Obama and for Mitt Romney. They are fighting hard. The president highlighted his accomplishments, but told crowds in both states that there is a lot more work to do. We'll follow that for you.
Now the stories you're talking about.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (voice-over): Selling sex.
DANIA SUAREZ, COLOMBIAN ESCORT (through translator): We went to this place to buy condoms and then we went to the hotel.
LEMON: A Colombian call girl telling secrets about the president's men. Is it time to make prostitution legal in the U.S.? I ask an American madame.
Too many hits. Too many questions.
BUZZ BISSINGER, COLUMNIST, "NEWSWEEK" & "THE DAILY BEAST": I say certainly ban it at the college level.
LEMON: The man who wrote the book on football wants to put an end to Friday, Saturday, Sunday and even Monday night life.
Vote for me.
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When I am president -- at the same time I believe -- and I will fight for an amendment -- I will put in place a system.
LEMON: If you stand for everything, do you really stand for anything? Will the real Mitt Romney please stand up?
That and the skinny on what everyone's talking about in our entertainment matchup (ph).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, first, you know where we're going to start. We're going to talk sex and paying for it, legally. How often do you see a sex worker standing up for herself and unabashedly telling her story for the world to see? Not very often until now. Dania Suarez went public this week in a very big way. She's a Colombian escort who brought down almost a dozen Secret Service agents after they wouldn't pay her what she calls a gift. That gift, $800 for the night. It all started in a bar in Cartagena, Colombia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIA SUAREZ, COLOMBIAN ESCORT (through translator): My friends nor I, you know, we didn't know they were agents, you know, Obama's agents, you know. And then we left and we went to this place to buy condoms and then we went to the hotel.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Who went?
SUAREZ: Well, my friend -- well, wait, she's not really a friend, just acquaintance, and the agent who was with me, and the other one, the four of us. And then my friend went with him because she liked him. No, I don't understand. Because she liked him. It wasn't the same thing I was doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: But that night led to a very ugly hangover in the morning when it was time to settle up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUAREZ: I told him to wake up and to give me my gift that I asked him for. And he said, no. Just go -- just go, bitch. I'm not going to pay you. And then he -- he just -- he put out 50,000 pesos for the taxi. And I was like -- I was in shock in that moment when he just said that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: If she was here in the U.S., she would have had few places to turn for help. But this was Colombia, in an area where prostitution is legal, and she had the law on her side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUAREZ: Two more agents showed up and stood at the door and asked me what was going on. I told them. I kept telling them I was going to call more police. More police so that my problem would get solved. And they didn't care. All they were saying was, please, please, no police, no police. They were asking me not to call the police. (END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: All right, but she did get the cops and now those agents are probably wishing they'd coughed up that $800. Now this is putting a spotlight now on an occupation often kept in the dark, prostitution, really, and legalizing it. Is it time for the U.S. to consider it? Is it time? It's already legal in parts of Nevada, where Susan Austin is a madame at the Mustang Ranch.
Susan, thank you. I couldn't wait to talk to you about this, because I know you're very passionate about it. You already sell sex legally. So what are the benefits of legalized prostitution aside from the purely physical ones?
SUSAN AUSTIN, MADAME, MUSTANG RANCH & THE WILD HORSE: Well, the benefits are, it's legal, it's regulated. The girls are medically checked. They're kept safe. And, number one, they work for themselves. They're not in the hands of predators. These ladies are independent contractors. They set their own hours. They come in. They work for themselves under our legal umbrella. What -- how better could it be? They don't have to look over their shoulders. And our customers are clients. They don't have to look over their shoulders either.
LEMON: And I -- you know, I asked you before the show, I said, is it OK if I call you madame? You're proud of it. What did you say?
AUSTIN: You better. I earned the right to be madame. You can't be a madame unless you've laid on your back and sold it yourself.
LEMON: OK. So, there you go. That will make a headline somewhere. Here, I've got to ask you this. When you first saw this story playing out, madame, did you say, oh, here we go? Did you realize it was going to get to this level?
AUSTIN: Oh, yes, I did. Well, the ladies broke the number one rule, get your money up front, sweetheart. And the men, shame on them. They made an agreement. Stick to your agreement. Every red-blooded man, when you make a handshake, you better follow through. That -- shame on them.
LEMON: Yes. And we're looking --
AUSTIN: Don't back track.
LEMON: We're looking at a documentary that was made about the ranch now that was for HDNet that we're looking at. And, you know, and I've seen many things about the Mustang Ranch. We've actually done stories on it here on CNN. My question to you, madame, do you think that this case, that Ms. Suarez's case, do you think it helps or hurts the case for legalized prostitution here in the United States, because now it's connected with politicians and the highest politician in the land, the president?
AUSTIN: It's always connected to politicians, honey. Look at it. Every time a little black book comes out, it's connected to politicians. So for all the men -- LEMON: There's always a whole list of people, right, on there who are politicians, right?
AUSTIN: That's right. But the problem is, they usually go to the illegal side. They very rarely visit the legal side, because the legal side never tells. We don't kiss and tell. That's the deal.
LEMON: Yes.
AUSTIN: And Nevada is the only state that's been proud enough and brave enough to step forward and make it legal in certain areas and be strong enough to regulate it. That's the key word -- regulation. You have to put the regulations in position in place and be strong enough to keep it that way. We're drug free, we moderate alcohol. Everything is done with the regulation that is in place. Condom use.
LEMON: I want to get this in, though, because many people -- and I don't know if this how we think about it in America, right. Most people think it's an act of desperation. So and, you know, right? A lot of people in the sex -- a lot of women in the sex trade talk about empowerment. But what's empowering, honestly, madame, about selling your body?
AUSTIN: It is empowering. When -- it's not just empowering. It's a care giving profession. When you meet a man who otherwise wouldn't receive the touch of a lady, either mother nature hasn't been kind or he's been in an industrial accident, or he's come from the war and he's missing body parts and no one will look at him twice and he rolls in and you look at him and all you see is the soul, and you reach out and you touch him and you know that this is the only woman who's going to do that unconditionally, without any thoughts of how he looks, you understand this is a very special profession. These women are very special ladies they don't think about how he looks.
LEMON: Yes.
AUSTIN: So --
LEMON: Madame, hold that thought, OK, because we are not done talking about sex for sale.
AUSTIN: OK.
LEMON: Not just yet.
AUSTIN: I certainly hope not.
LEMON: Yes. And I have a warning for guys. Warning for guys. You need to pay attention. Ahead, how one country cut the prostitution rate in half.
And we want you to tell us what you think, should prostitution be legal in the United States. I am on Twitter right now. You see it, @DonLemonCNN. Also on FaceBook at DonLemonCNN as well. Tweet me your thoughts.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUZZ BISSINGER, COLUMNIST, "NEWSWEEK" & "THE DAILY BEAST": Are football's day's numbered? No one is going to -- wants to advocate people repeatedly getting hurt and dying at an early age.
LEMON: He wrote the book on the game of football. Now he's leading the charge to ban the sport.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. Thanks for all the tweets. I'm going to read some of them in just a moment.
Who's really to blame for all the awful things that surround prostitution in the U.S.? Is it the people selling their bodies or the people paying for it? Since 1999, Sweden has been arresting the Johns, not the sex workers. And the stats show that street prostitution has been cut in half there. Manny Arora is here. He's a criminal defense attorney.
So I want to ask you, you heard what the madame had to say, right? So would Sweden's idea work here for just charging the Johns rather than the women who are soliciting -- or who are selling their bodies?
MANNY ARORA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, we sort of looked at the statutes that Sweden has. We already have penalties for the Johns here. They're just misdemeanors. There's not much of an incentive or much of a risk to the people that's actually getting caught on an undercover sting operation or something like that or getting caught with a prostitute. So we have the laws on the books. Either we need to tighten them up to make it more difficult or more problematic for the people that are actually soliciting the prostitutes.
LEMON: Yes, but I think that -- I think that the women know, right, that nothing is going to happen to them. The men know nothing is going to happen to them. You said, you know, not much happens to the woman.
ARORA: Sure.
LEMON: But, still, they're still part of the process of being prosecuted or whatever, being charged with something. And the women aren't there. You don't -- do you -- I don't know if it would be against our constitutional rights not to charge both sides here. You -- I don't know.
ARORA: You can charge whoever you want. I mean at some point if you're going to prosecute the man --
LEMON: And they did cut it in half.
ARORA: Sure. If you're going to prosecute the man and take it to trial, you're going to need somebody else to say, yes, he did this or he gave me this money, unless it's an undercover officer.
LEMON: Yes.
ARORA: So if the lady is not going to be given immunity, then you're never going to have a trial. Most of the people know that. Or even if you do get caught, it's a minimal fine for the most part.
LEMON: Hey, madame, I want to ask you this. You know the minds of men and you think Sweden's idea would work here in America? I don't think you think it will. I think that you would be completely against this. Am I wrong?
AUSTIN: I don't like it at all. Why would you make the man a criminal? And what you're actually doing is you're making the poor woman, you're putting them in the hands of the predators. So they still got those women out there working. They're pushing those women to work. So the predators are benefiting. They're just -- the women aren't being charged and the poor men are taking the brunt of it. Those men aren't criminals. And to legalize it in the United States is not the answer. It's to legalize it and regulate it like you do casinos and put it in specialized areas and strictly controlled and regulated so that it's -- in specific areas. You treat it like a casino, like we do here in Nevada, and do it very specifically in certain areas. It's a very special profession.
LEMON: Go ahead, Manny.
ARORA: Well, you can't regulate everything.
AUSTIN: The women aren't criminals.
ARORA: I mean at some point you have to have a morality check in the laws that you write.
AUSTIN: Why?
ARORA: So you can arrest the Johns, you can arrest the -- because that's what we are. That's the kind of people that we are. We're decent human beings and there are some things that aren't acceptable as far as that goes.
AUSTIN: Yes, and my ladies are decent human beings. We're not immoral.
ARORA: Nobody's saying that. But if you're going to do this, does it stop at children? Does it stop at animals? Silly arguments that the politicians make. But at some point the women that are working at this either start at children -- that's what most of the stats say, that they start early --
LEMON: Madame, you've heard this before. You've heard this before, no doubt.
AUSTIN: I've heard this before. I started in this business in my late 40s.
LEMON: Really?
AUSTIN: Excuse me, late 40s. LEMON: But --
AUSTIN: I put my son through college.
LEMON: But when you hear that, when you talk about morality and you're comparing it to other things, I mean, for you, is that an argument that you've heard before? How do you respond to that? Where does it stop? You know, here we go with animals. What?
AUSTIN: I've heard it. I've heard it. Men and women are giving it away all the time. What's wrong with two consenting adults putting a price on it. I mean men and women are putting a price on it, they're just putting a bartering system on it. Oh, yes, I love him. I want to marry him. He gives me a ring, I'll give him sex. That's just a bartering system.
ARORA: But it's not quite that simple. I don't mean to interrupt.
AUSTIN: But we women are giving it -- go ahead.
LEMON: Go ahead. Go ahead.
ARORA: It's not quite that simple. I mean --
AUSTIN: OK.
ARORA: I've been doing criminal defense for almost 19 years now. And the issue is, the women just aren't on an equal footing with the men. There's pimps, there's all these kinds of prosecutions that you see over the time that the women are victimized.
LEMON: But I think that's what she's saying, to put it on an equal footing.
AUSTIN: That's right.
ARORA: To put it on an equal footing, but what are you going to do, squeeze the pimps out?
AUSTIN: And legalized prostitution takes the pimps out.
LEMON: OK. We're going to -- let's -- we're going to have to end it there, sadly, and -- because I love having this conversation because everyone, you know, everyone's don't -- my producer said, don't say the oldest profession in the book, it's a cliche, but that's what people call it, the oldest profession in the book.
Madame, thank you. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I like your candor. Manny, I liked your candor, as well. And as I said to the viewer earlier that we were going to -- I just want to read some things. My Twitter feed is going crazy. Both of you can hear this.
It's empowering because they made a choice to make money doing what they truly enjoy. It's not selling their body. I think it should be legal because it would be safer without pimps and lessen the crime rate. Those are most of it. Obviously not everyone is in support of it, but those are what most people are saying on Twitter @DonLemonCNN. Be a part of the conversation. And, again, thanks to both of my guests.
We want to turn now to a tragic story that has many people talking about banning football. That's right, banning football. Imagine that. Well, the suicide of former linebacker Junior Seau on Wednesday, that's what's really sparked this. The 43-year-old's brain is going to be studied by researchers to look at the effects of concussions from a career of hard hits to the head and whether those hits might have led to degenerative disease.
The question surrounding Junior Seau's death are adding to the growing debate about football and critics say safety is just -- only just one problem. I want to -- I want you to listen now to Buzz Bissinger. He wrote the classic book "Fright Night Lights." You've heard of it. And he's going to surprise you. He says football, at least at a certain level, maybe beyond, should be banned.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUZZ BISSINGER, COLUMNIST, "NEWSWEEK" & "THE DAILY BEAST": We're going to have to make a decision, and the decision is going to be, do we have football, do we keep it the way it is? Because if you water it down too much, it's not going to be football. Or do we really ban it on every level? And I think we're getting very -- closer and closer to that point with the death of Junior Seau and the suicide of Duerson and the suicide of Ray Easterling and all the studies that are coming out. It is a vicious game. And the problem is, and I'm first to admit this, I like it vicious and I like it violent, but no one is going to -- wants to advocate people repeatedly getting hurt and dying at an early age.
LEMON: Listen. I'm glad you said that, because you are -- I refer to you, as we were talking about this, as one of football's biggest fans. You wrote the book on football, in my opinion, and in many people's opinion.
BISSINGER: Right.
LEMON: But I also think it's very interesting that you say we're getting closer to the point where we're banning it all -- where we might ban it all together. And you mean on the professional level as well?
BISSINGER: Yes, because I mean I think the problem is -- and I feel this now, and I am a football fan -- you're going to reach a point where if you keep watering it down, it is not going to be the game we recognize. You're never going to get the injuries out of it. And I know no one wants to admit this now, we like it because it is violent. We like it because it is gladiatorial. We like it --
LEMON: Like boxing.
BISSINGER: Look, there's nothing more exciting when some guy gives another guy a dot shot and the guy is down on the ground and the crowd is going crazy. And I do like that. But if the research continues to show how dangerous it is down the road with dementia or Alzheimer's, suicide is different, that's a much more complex act, what are you going to do?
LEMON: Is it really realistic to -- realistic to think that so many people make their livelihoods on football, it's what people enjoy it, you know, "Friday Night Life," that's what you wrote, is it realistic to think that Americans are going to give that up because of injuries?
BISSINGER: No. No, it's not. I mean, you know, we can all sort of have pie in the sky things that we believe in. And I don't believe that it should be banned at the pro level. The only way it could happen, as you know, there have been class action suits. There's going to be thousands of suits that are filed by individuals against the NFL. It's going to be like asbestos. And if they lose those and they have to pay out hundreds of millions of dollars, then you may have a problem.
LEMON: I think people are going to be really shocked, and I think they are, that the guy who wrote "Friday Night Lights," as big a football fan you are, I think they're going to be surprised that you're saying that we should ban football. I just think it's -- I think people are like, what?
BISSINGER: Well, you've got to remember, you know, "Friday Night Lights" was actually really a cautionary tale in many ways about what happens when, in this case, the town of Odessa, Texas, puts too much emphasis on high school football and the way that it damages kids. So it is not that incompatible. And I want viewers to know, this is not something that I'm just saying for the hell of it. I've thought about this issue for 20 years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: All right. So should football be banned, really? You're going to want to hear what these two former NFL players have to say about it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. The stories you're talking about right now. More of them.
More than 1,000 former players have filed suit against the NFL over the way concussion related injuries have been handled. The NFL denies the claims and insists player safety is a priority. Jamal Anderson is here. He's involved in that newest lawsuit.
What was it, like 100 players last week involved (ph)?
JAMAL ANDERSON, FORMER NFL PLAYER: One hundred and fourteen.
LEMON: One hundred and fourteen last week.
And he and Lamar Campbell are NFL veterans.
Hey, Lamar, good to see you.
LAMAR CAMPBELL, RADIO HOST, VOICE AMERICA SPORTS: Thanks for having me.
LEMON: So you guys saw what Buzz Bissinger had to say. This is the guy who wrote "Friday Night Lights."
ANDERSON: Right.
CAMPBELL: Right.
LEMON: I mean the book, television, movies, on and on and on.
ANDERSON: Right. Right.
LEMON: So what do you think? Do you think -- do you think a ban on football is going too far?
CAMPBELL: I think a ban on football is definitely going too far. I mean as long as sponsorship and the money that is involved in collegiate and NFL football, the number one sport in America right now is --
ANDERSON: Right, number one and two, probably.
CAMPBELL: Number one and two.
ANDERSON: It's a strong argument.
LEMON: Yes, but when you hear things, and it hasn't been determined exactly, you know, yet --
ANDERSON: Right.
LEMON: If he had a degenerative disease, I'm talking about Junior Seau.
ANDERSON: Right.
CAMPBELL: Right.
LEMON: But when you see that sort of thing, how can you say we shouldn't --
ANDERSON: Don, it's good that we're having the conversation to make the game safer.
LEMON: I've heard that. How do you make -- how do you make a helmet that safe? There is not enough cushion in the world?
ANDERSON: Well, I mean, you -- there's lot of -- there's a lot of money being made in football.
CAMPBELL: Yes.
ANDERSON: There's always new ways --
LEMON: And I'm not saying it should be banned. I'm just -- ANDERSON: Right. Right, absolutely, but there's always new ways to improve the technology. There are certainly ways now, especially with having this conversation, where we can try to improve what we do on the football field. Certainly awareness. You see the things that are transpiring now with the NFL about safety and I think it's going to start trickling on down.
LEMON: What they say --
ANDERSON: It must. It must.
LEMON: What the research shows -- and I've been talking to Dr. Gupta and Fran Tarkenton (ph) and a number of people who have been working on this particular issue, that it's repeated blows to the head.
ANDERSON: Right.
CAMPBELL: Right.
ANDERSON: Right.
LEMON: And so they're saying, hey, maybe kids shouldn't be playing football at -- you know, youth football. Maybe college. When they said college. You heard what Buzz -- Buzz said it's not -- and he's talking about the money, you know, in college and he's also talking about safety and education.
ANDERSON: Right.
CAMPBELL: Right. Right.
LEMON: So maybe, I don't know, should youth football be banned? Should you limit it?
CAMPBELL: Well, the difference (ph) is, and I think Jamal hit it right on the head is the awareness. You know a lot of the pre-2007 did not know what CT is -- was at all. But I think now, of course what we do in the NFL is going to trickle down to the college and trickle down to the high schools. So with that comes safety as well. There are numerous options out there for guys to protect themselves as far as helmets, as far as new technology to protect the younger generation of football players.
ANDERSON: Yes, there's no way youth football should be banned.
LEMON: I was looking at my Twitter feed become someone tweeted, and I can't find it now, but basically what they said was, I'm surprised there's not a constitutional amendment on football, because it will never be banned. There's too much money.
ANDERSON: Never.
LEMON: It's America's sport.
CAMPBELL: Never. Never.
ANDERSON: Never.
LEMON: All right, so I had -- I asked Buzz Bissinger this. I said, if you had a child now who was of age to play football, would you allow them to play football? He said, no way, Don. No way. And, Jamal, your sons --
ANDERSON: Right.
LEMON: And there are photos of them here.
ANDERSON: My son, Jamal.
LEMON: Yes.
ANDERSON: You see him right there.
LEMON: Yes. Do you let him play football?
ANDERSON: Yes. He plays football. Last year he played for Middle Creek Hawks. We won a championship Abigail (ph) Tournament right there. I'm the offensive coordinator. I think it's a -- each parent should take it upon themselves, just like everything else we do on our kids endeavor, to personality responsibility. Who's your coach? How are they coaching your kids? These things are important. It's the same as --
LEMON: OK, I get that. I get that. You played the sport, though.
ANDERSON: Right.
LEMON: Have you been knocked out?
ANDERSON: Have I been knocked out? I've definitely been hit hard.
LEMON: Did you have a concussion?
ANDERSON: Absolutely.
LEMON: OK. So that doesn't go through your head when your kid's out there?
ANDERSON: There's no doubt about it. But what also goes through my head -- that's you, not me.
CAMPBELL: Yes.
(CROSS TALK)
ANDERSON: Oh, you in trouble. No, I'm playing.
What also goes through my head, Don, is, how is my child being taught? That's why I take it upon myself to go on the field. I mean I didn't necessarily want to coach football. I do enjoy it. And the fact that my son wanted to play. But don't get it -- don't get it twisted. I certainly had long conversations about whether or not I wanted him to play so young. But I just -- I felt like the experience for me growing up was awesome.
LEMON: So, but you think about it? It is always in the back of your head?
ANDERSON: I think you have to think about it.
LEMON: All right.
ANDERSON: It's like your kid getting on a bike. It's like your kid getting on a moped.
CAMPBELL: Exactly.
ANDERSON: It's like anything that's, sure, you know what I mean, that's dangerous. I mean --
LEMON: Listen, the object of riding a bike is not to be knocked off.
ANDERSON: Well, I understand that, Don, but, I mean, we know though -- we know though --
LEMON: I understand what you're saying. What -- Lamar, if you had a son, would you --
CAMPBELL: Well, I do have a son. I have a five-year-old son that plays soccer. And that's actually, according to Sanjay Gupta --
LEMON: (INAUDIBLE) getting kicked a lot.
CAMPBELL: He's getting kicked a lot, he's getting -- he's heading the ball right now. So that's something that I think about playing football. But he's at the age now where he understands daddy plays football. He wants to emulate his father. And one thing that he will have that I didn't have is the education of what concussions are and to be coached correctly.
ANDERSON: Right. Right.
CAMPBELL: What we didn't have. We were taught --
ANDERSON: I've got a great line really quick, Don, from Andy Staples (ph) SI (ph). Steinbrenner once said, I learned as much at the line of scrimmage that I ever learned in the stacks of books in a library. That's Steinbrenner, a baseball guy about football. So, it's a fantastic sport. It's a team sport. Number one team sport.
LEMON: And the debate will continue. Thanks, Jamal. Thanks, Lamar.
CAMPBELL: Thank you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When I am president -- at the same time I believe -- and I will fight for an amendment -- I will put in place a system -- LEMON (voice-over): For it. Against it. And a gay staffer out of a job after just two weeks from an uprising on the right. The conservatives are here. I'll ask them if Mitt Romney really has anyone's back but his own.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All Right. Join the conversation now @donlemoncnn on twitter. Will the real Mitt Romney please stand up? You've heard the rap against him that his views on some very big issues have changed over time. So let's take gun control, for example. Then and now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We do have tough gun laws in Massachusetts. I support them. I won't chip away at them. I believe they help protect us.
You know, we need a president who will enforce current laws, not create new ones that only serve to burden law for gun owners. President Obama has not, I will. We need a president who will stand up for the right of hunters and sportsman and those who seek to protect their homes and their families. President Obama has not. I will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And you've heard even people in his own party saying he's going to flip-flop on health care and he also did it on the woman's right to choose on abortion. So, -- then, there's this.
Romney's foreign policy spokesman quit after two weeks on the job. Richard Grenell was outspoken, he's openly gay, and he had posted some controversial tweets. So he had his critics within the party, right?
But Grenell's quit exit spotlights a question that has shadowed Mitt Romney's career, is there any cause or concern at Romney's core? Is there anything at his core? Any issue on which he will not budge?
So let's talk about that now with two conservatives.
Welcome back Noel Sheppard, excuse me, welcome back from newsbusters and Republican strategist Anna Navarro.
Good to see both of you.
All right. So. Let me have it, and I'll let you have it.
Yesterday Romney said his team encouraged Grenell to stay on the job. He told FOX News that his campaign hires people quote, "not based upon their ethnicity or sexual preference or gender, but upon their capability. We are very sorry to have him go.
OK. So, ladies first. And I'm not being sexist. So, why not do this before he steps down or how what ever happened behind the scenes, who knows? Why not stand up for the guy before instead of after the fact, Ana?
ANA NAVARRO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think that's a good question, Don. Frankly, I think they should have let him be out there doing his job. There's been a lot of foreign policy issues discussed in the last two to three weeks. He should have been out there doing his job and we could have judged him on his qualifications, which is the only thing we should be judging people on, their qualifications.
So I'm disappointed with this decision. I'm disappointed with how it happened. I do think there's more to it than meets the eye. And I do know that some of the Romney staff tried very strongly to keep him on board and dissuade him from leaving. But I do wish it was handled differently.
LEMON: So, do you think he felt pressure from the extremes of the party and he caved?
NAVARRO: There were a few folks on the conservative right who gave him some pressure. I want to think that's not what happened.
LEMON: OK. All right.
Noel, go ahead, what do you think?
NOEL SHEPPARD, ASSOCIATE EDITOR, NEWSBUSTERS: OK, here is what I think, and this might shock you or may not. I think about three weeks ago, Reuters did a poll asking for people's top priority in this election. And 53 percent said jobs and the economy, 14 percent said health care, 9 percent said family values. Nowhere in this mix was gay rights issues.
I think the reason why we're talking about this, and the reason why it's exploded on Mitt Romney is because the economy is terrible, the Obama administration, the Obama campaign don't want to talk about the economy, they want to talk about extraneous issues, and conceivably important ones, but not issues the public are extraordinarily concerned with.
LEMON: OK, Noel.
SHEPPARD: Right now - yes?
LEMON: GO ahead. You can finish your thought. But, I understand what you're saying. The public, it's about jobs, I get that. But Noel, quite honestly, that's a talking point. Because Grenell, this wasn't about gay rights. This was about foreign policy. He just happened to be openly gay and there were some tweets. But this is wasn't -- he is not in the job for foreign policy to make an issue out of gay rights. That logic did not make sense.
SHEPPARD: And I very much agree with that. And you know what, foreign policy in that Reuters poll --
LEMON: But you're not explaining to me why - you are not giving a good reason for why he had to step down that didn't have to do with gay rights. He wasn't making it an issue.
SHEPPARD: I don't think that this issue was handled well by Romney, although what we know about this is Romney wanted him to come back. Romney was not interested in him leaving. Apparently this man resigned of his own volition.
So, how is that Romney's fault that someone resigned because he was potentially feeling uncomfortable about his position?
LEMON: We have to run. I understand that, but we have to run for time purposes. We are heavy here. But the thing is, yes, why would -- my question was, is there anything he won't -- is there anything he won't, you know, not back down about? And why not step up for the guy -- stand up for the guy before hand and instead of after? That's the question I asked Ana and that's what I asked you.
NAVARRO: Well Don, on the question though, is there anything he won't back out on? He can't back out on anything because of the wrath that you discussed at the beginning of the segment, because he's been fighting this for many years. He's got to stick to his guns at this point. Certainly he can nuance his language.
But let's be clear. He doesn't have the luxury of changing a position. Neither the right nor the left will allow him that luxury of changing a position.
LEMON: I want to be fair to Noel because I want Noel to weigh in what I just - what I just said. So go ahead, noel.
SHEPPARD: Yes. Because, I mean, look. The reality is that both of the presidential candidates at this point, Romney and Obama, have flip-flopped on their position with regard to gay rights in particular, same-sex marriage.
LEMON: Right.
SHEPPARD: We know that Obama, in 1996 when he was a state senator, was for same-sex marriage, and in 2008, he changed. Well, in 1994, when Romney was --
LEMON: You're right. I don't think you understand what you are saying. This is not about gay rights. What I'm saying is why not stand up for the guy before hand? Even Rick Santorum --
(CROSSTALK)
SHEPPARD: He said he would hire him back.
LEMON: OK. Go ahead. But Even Rick Santorum stood up for his friend who people ousted, who was a gay friend. I had a conversation with him.
It appears from people from the outside looking in that Mitt Romney didn't stand up for someone that he hired and someone he had respect for. And then after the fact, he crack down.
SHEPPARD: But he has already come out and said that he would hire him back, that he like him back. So what more can he do?
LEMON: All right. Thank you, Noel. We got to go, only for time purposes.
Thank you, Noel. Thank you, Ana. I appreciate it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Ashton Kutcher in dark face? What was he thinking? And what was she thinking?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's 6 years old. Yes, she does look (INAUDIBLE).
LEMON: That's not makeup. But this mom is in more trouble than Ashton.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: OK, so Ashton Kutcher has people talking again. This time it's over a controversial commercial that features Kutcher portraying an Indian man named Raj.
I'm raj, looking for the most delicious thing on the planet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHTON KUTCHER, ACTOR: I'm Raj. I'm a Hollywood producer. I'm looking the most delicious.
I'm seeking higher plans of consciousness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: All right. So, Indian-Americans were so upset. They took the social media to demanded the ad be pulled. The makers of Popchips product featured in the ad removed the ad and offered an apology.
Jamal is back. Dean Obeidallah is here as well. Anan Navarro is back as well.
OK, is it fair to call Ashton Kutcher racist, Dean Obeidallah?
DEAN OBEIDALLAH, POLITICAL COMEDIAN: Is it fair? Probably not, because it wasn't hateful. But, I mean, let's be honest. If you're a white guy and they're putting brown make up on you or black makeup on you. It will go out and make it or portray that (INAUDIBLE), say no. This is ridiculous. You know what, Don, Popchips, they are all white. So, there is something wrong right there. A little racist going on. At least have an Indian flavored Popchips like tendorian chip. But it's ridiculous. Come on. He should know better.
LEMON: Jamal, you were rolling your eyes when you saw it. JAMAL ANDERSON, FORMER NFL PLAYER: Well, I don't think Ashton - I certainly don't believe Ashton was trying to be racist. It was a bad interpretation of Mary Jane.
LEMON: Remember the Mike Myers movie?
ANDERSON: Yes. that movie was pretty -- it was panned the same way. People were frustrated with the depiction of Indians in that movie.
LEMON: Maybe, it's like the Mary J. Burger King commercial. I mean. Maybe they just didn't think it all the way through, what did you think?
ANDERSON: Right.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Ana, are you there?
NAVARRO: Yes, I am.
LEMON: Maybe they didn't think the Ashton thing all the way through with what the Popchip commercial like they did with the Mary J. Blige Burger King commercial. Ana, you are in dark place. What do you think?
NAVARRO: You know, Don, I think Ashton needs to find himself another older woman. He needs a little adult supervision and a little bit of, you know, good thinking in there.
LEMON: OK. Let's talk about this New Jersey mom who was charged this week with child endangerment for taking her 6-year-old to a tanning salon. She had early denies it. I want you to listen real quickly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: She's 6 years old. Yes, she does go tanning with mommy, but not in the booth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Dean, I got to be honest with you, before we even talk about that is it fair to have a child in protective services or be called? It's hard to even look at her.
OBEIDALLAH: I thought she was from the Ashton Kutcher ad. That's ridiculous. That's the brownest face I've ever seen in my life. Look. If someone is drunk and go into a bar, they can't serve him. If this woman wants to go in tanning salon, they should not be letting her tan. And obviously, it's against the law in New Jersey prosecuting her for bringing her child. It's dangerous to children to put in a tanning bed. She looks like my mother. Very scary looking person.
LEMON: How are you going to ban to life? ANDERSON: The child endangerment is serious. But, you know, Don. I don't know why we shouldn't be applauding her, because with all the serious issues going on, we absolutely need comic look and you can't look at this lady's face without cracking up. Come on.
OBEIDALLAH: It's scary. It's scary.
ANDERSON: I don't mean to be rude. But the first time I saw her, I was like, really.
LEMON: Well, you know what Ana, you're down there in Florida and there are lots of brown people in Florida and dark people like me. I don't know if you ever seen anyone this shade of brown?
NAVARRO: Yes, Don. But we're pretty brown. But that is not pretty brown. You know, I'm telling you. I think that woman - I don't know if she was endangering her daughter, but she is certainly endangering herself and us for having to look at her. Well, she should be in vapor active. She isn't all right in the head.
OBEIDALLAH: Don, I have a baseball glove from little league that looks like her.
LEMON: Yes.
OBEIDALLAH: And she is a scary looking person.
ANDERSON: They say on the streets, Don, you go hard on the paint, not fall in the brown paint.
LEMON: I do feel bad in a way that we're making fun of this lady. Because, I mean. What if she has a legitimate issue? I mean, she has an addiction to tanning, that is. Is that legitimate? I mean, Snooki has --
NAVARRO: Don, I learned the term this week, it is called tanorexic. You never think you're tan enough.
ANDERSON: The issue with the child, you don't want to take your 6- year-old to the tanning salon. But this is start from - I mean, look at the mom. I mean, this is obviously a pattern she can't control. So, that's serious.
LEMON: All right. So, where do we go from here? Are we making too much hay of this? Probably and you know and probably making more --.
ANDERSON: I just want one more snapshot of her.
LEMON: Can we see here one more time?
OBEIDALLAH: Is there a rehab? Is there tanning anonymous she can go to? Is there any kind of help she can get? Tanning rehab?
LEMON: There we go. Hold on, hold on. Part two of our entertainment mess coming up, the Jewish white boy who helped change the image of rap. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Living in Iraq during the war was pretty hard with all the explosions, the kidnappings. We wanted to come here. It was like a dream, you know?
MARK KABBAN, CNN HEROES CANDIDATE: The United States has the most refugees in the world. Many of them are from Iraq and they're being resettled in San Diego in large numbers.
When they get here, they're learning a new language, they have to find employment. Learning in a lot of ways to struggles just being. When my family came from Beirut, I was 9-years-old.
I'm working as a refugee case manager. I saw a lot of kids just idle, alienated. Having a normal childhood is something they deserve.
My name is Mark Kabban and I use soccer to motivate refugees to succeed in the United States.
(INAUDIBLE) is an Arabic word which mean, let's go. And it's really what we are trying to do here with the kids.
We have 200 refugees in our program. These kids come from all over Africa, Asia and the Middle East. The families have endured the same struggles. When they realize that, they become like brothers and sisters.
Soccer is an escape. It is confidence. It's making them feel like they belong. And it's just fun.
We use soccer as a hook and then we have them in our education program. We try to get them on to college.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They helped me to find friends and teach me how to speak English. And now with coach Mark, it's a fun life.
KABBAN: The families have sacrificed everything for their kids to have a better life. If we can do anything to help them, it's my honor.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So when you think about the world of rap, a lot of African- American names probably come to mind. You think about them, so how did a white kid from a Jewish-catholic home become one of the biggest legends in the game? Well, a combination of a gift, of rhyme, of prankster of sense of humor and the right partners, of course.
I'm talking about Adam Yauch, better known as MCA of Beastie Boy is dead at the age of 47. In 2009, Youch was diagnosed with cancer, forcing the Beastie Boys to cancel shows and to push back an album.
So, how did a Jewish-catholic kid, because you think about African- Americans, and when you see what rap has become now, and gangster and all of that, you never think about that. Even though white kids are the ones who are buying mostly rap and hip-hop.
ANDERSON: You look at the inception of def jams with Rick Rubin and Russell Simmons and the Beastie Boys, a public enemy and LL Cool J. These were the icons of rap. The Beastie Boys led that genre, the imagination, the music what we heard. That license to do. I'm is a hip-hop classic. It's not even a conversation about whether or not it's a classic. And it influenced so many different artists.
And when people were listening to it, you listen to some of the songs in that. Then, all of the sudden, people are going -- you see the videos and it' like, wow, those are white. Those guys are white Jewish guys or what have you? But I mean, that's what def jam was about, the inception of def jam was about putting out these revolutionary artists that we all remember to this day.
LEMON: Dean, it's one of those stories that was a household name we talked about this. We said, you know, it's not like the death of Whitney Houston who is a household name. Adam is not a household name, but yet, and still, he really had made a mark on music and a bit of very powerful mark.
OBEIDALLAH: He did. He made - I will be honest. He made white people feel cool. I'm part white and part Arab. I certainly connected to it. I think I was in school at that time the Beastie Boys were raging. Yesterday I listened to "sabotage" and "no strings in Brooklyn" those songs hold up. They were great.
And also, I will tell you. MCA, the 1998 mTV music awards talked about facing racism specifically as Arabs and Muslims. That's before 9/11. I mean, this guy was not only a music visionary, but also, a human rights and standing up for minors like Arabs and Muslims who know when we are standing up for 1998. I think that's amazing. It's a great loss.
LEMON: Yes. And I'm sure Ana is sitting there going, why won't you let me in on this because Ana, I have something for you. So standby because I want to ask, how do you like your models, Victoria secret style or with some junk in the trunk and under the hood?
Well, we will guess it. The times are already changing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So here's the skinny. Too skinny and to young are no longer in, at least not with "Vogue" magazine. "Vogue" Editors made a pact. They will not knowingly work with models under the age of 16 or who appear to have an eating disorder. 'Vogue" is not the first to start this practice but they are the latest and the most recognizable.
All right. So Ana, listen. I know how you said, you like to get your grub on, we talked about it last week. The White House correspondent's dinner. What d o you think? Will this catch? This a good thing? NAVARRO: Look. I thinks it's got to catch on, because look at the average American woman, it's a size 12. So the skinny minis, they may look great on TV and may look great on the pages of "Vogue," but they're not the average American woman. And I can just tell you, I'm elated. Somebody with junk in the trunk, junk in the front and a lot of years on me, I'm just happy as can be about this. I see it as a career opportunity.
LEMON: You can never be too much or too thin. I was going to be too rich or too - you know?
ANDERSON: Yes.
LEMON: You were like, what did she say?
ANDERSON: I've been to the Victoria Secret show and it's a fantastic show. Beyonce and that type. I'm all ant it.
LEMON: You can say boodyliscious. You can say that.
ANDERSON: I'm an advocate of boodylisciousness on the cover of 'Vogue."
NAVARRO: Tyra is going to be back to being a supermodel.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Dean, do you like the thickness? Do you like the boodyliscious?
OBEIDALLAH: I think women are beautiful in all shapes. I think they are got to start changing the male models. I don't want guys who ash for it and wash for its stomach anymore. I want guys who may pan out as John Goodman so I can feel better about myself. How about that?
NAVARRO: I don't know about that. You know, I like the male models, how they look now.
OBEIDALLAH: Of course, you do.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Ana, that's a double standards!
OBEIDALLAH: Exactly.
NAVARRO: And? There's plenty of double standards that we women have to deal with. And, you know, we will stay with one.
ANDERSON: So we'll balance it out, Ana. We will make sure that the models are a little bit thicker.
LEMON: You guys are great. I really enjoyed this. There they are. The ladies of "the view," they call them skinny bitches, right? Look at the catwalk. how skinny they are.
ANDERSON: I do find beauty in them as well, Don.
LEMON: You find beauty in everything. You wanted to weigh in on the legalize prostitution thing.
ANDERSON: Listen. Everybody has a talent on girl, Don. We need to respect that.
LEMON: Bye-bye. Thank you, guys.
I'm Don Lemon from CNN headquarters in Atlanta. See you back here tomorrow, 6:00, 7:00, 10:00 p.m. Eastern.
Good night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
