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U.N. Confirms 85 Killed in Syria; Private Spacecraft Links up with International Space Station; Pedro Hernandez Charged with Second- Degree Murder in Etan Patz Case
Aired May 26, 2012 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ALINA CHO, CNN HOST: The stories you're talking about in a moment. But first, we want to get you up to speed on some of the day's headlines.
U.N. monitors confirm that 85 people, 34 of them are children were killed overnight in Syria. Witnesses say they were killed by artillery fire and soldiers who went house to house targeting entire families.
A second degree murder charge has within filed in the case of a 6-year-old boy who disappeared three years ago in New York city. Police say Pedro Hernandez has confessed to killing little Etan Patz. Hernandez worked as a stock clerk in the boy's SoHo neighborhood.
And for the first time ever, a private spacecraft has linked up with the international space station. Astronauts are removing some 1,000 pounds of supplies over the next few days. The space capsule which is called the "Dragon," was made by a California company called SpaceX.
I'm Alina Cho, in for Don Lemon tonight. Wait till you see what we're working on, CNN Saturday night, where most shows dare not to go.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHO (voice-over): An army general speaks out about military suicide. Is it tough love or has the military turned its back on vets?
Wanted, unemployment busting.
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The time has come for a president, a leader who will lead.
CHO: Deficit drop kicking.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will finish what we started.
CHO: Seeker of truth and justice. Must look good in spandex or a tie, classified double secret super powers provided upon hire.
And fired for being too hot? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was working in a show room for women's lingerie where they sold thongs.
CHO: Hear from the woman being called a distraction, live.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHO: All right, we're so glad you're with us. This is a holiday weekend, of course, Memorial Day. And so, it's so much more than the unofficial start of summer.
It's a time we take to remember America's military men and women who aren't with us anymore, those who died while serving our country. So, I have invited Kim Ruocco to join me here tonight. She is a military spouse and a mom in a military family. You're about to find out why I invited her to talk with me.
Kim, welcome tonight. Our focus --
KIM RUOCCO, MARINE HUSBAND SUFFERED FROM PTSD: Thanks for having us.
CHO: I will be talking to you in just a moment.
And our focus tonight is a really delicate one, the rising number of men and women in uniform who commit suicide.
Last year alone, the Pentagon says 278 people just in the army, active duty, National Guard and reserves killed themselves. That is way up from a few years ago. Then a few months ago, this man you're about to see, General Dana Petard, now this is an older photo of him. He's now a two-star general, the commander of one of the army's biggest bases, Fort Bliss, in Texas.
He posted these words on a blog, reportedly, after a rash of suicides on his base. Quote, "I've now come to the conclusion that suicide is an absolutely selfish act." He went on to say, "soldiers who commit suicide leave their families, their buddies and their units to literally clean up their mess. There is nothing noble about suicide."
Kim Ruocco, I told you she's here because of her military family connection. Well, it turns out that Kim's husband, a Marine Corps officer, committed suicide back in 2005.
Kim, I guess before we get on to the details of what happened with your husband, I just want to get your reaction to what the General Petard said. He has retracted his comments about suicide saying he was simply frustrated at the time, but those comments are out there. What is your reaction?
RUOCCO: Yes, I mean, I was really sad to hear the comment. You know, it's too bad, because if you know about mental health and people who are considering suicide, that they are -- the last thing they are thinking about is dumping their baggage. They are, really, feeling like they are no longer valuable to their unit. They are no longer valuable to their families. They feel like they have nothing left to give and that everyone would believe better off without them.
And it's a mental health issue and injury issue, not an issue of selfishness or dropping their pack or leave their problems for other people.
CHO: Tell me about your husband, John. It's been seven years now since he killed himself so tragically. What happened?
RUOCCO: Well, you know, it was a combination of trauma and loss and untreated depression. And in the military so often, our men and women are asked to live very stressful lives with very little sleep. They are sacrificing a lot. They are separated from their support system. They get exposed to a lot of trauma in their lives. And going to seek help is often not seen as a strong thing to do, but maybe something that is weak or something that you should avoid.
But in my husband's case, when he started to really suffer, he was afraid to ask for help for fear of how that would change the way people viewed him.
CHO: That's right. There's that stigma that we hear so much about with the military.
RUOCCO: Yes.
CHO: I want to play some tape of vice president Biden. He was at an event yesterday in Washington. You were there. He made some pretty powerful comments. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That black hole you feel in your chest like you're being sucked back into it, looking at your kids, most of you have kids here, and no one -- it was the first time in my career, in my life I realized someone could go out and I probably shouldn't say this with the press here, but it's more important -- you're more important.
For the first time in my life I understood how someone could consciously decide to commit suicide. Not because they were deranged, not because they were nuts. But because they had been to the top of the mountain and they just knew in their heart they would never get there again. That it was never going to be that way ever again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHO: Pretty powerful stuff. Kim, what was your reaction? You were there in the room.
RUOCCO: Well, I was amazed, because vice president Biden was speaking to 2,000 of our survivors who were gathered for a weekend of support around their grief. And for him to speak so candidly about his own loss and his own thoughts and feelings really touched our survivors and really made them, feel like they were heard and that people understood their loss. So I was really grateful to the vice president for opening up his heart and for letting us know, that we weren't alone in our grief and some of our struggles around grief.
CHO: And, you know, it's been seven years as I mentioned since your husband killed himself. I'm curious to know from your standpoint whether you think the military has gotten any better in terms of helping people who come back from war zones and who suffer from PTSD and who might be on the edge. Have you noticed a difference since John?
RUOCCO: I've noticed people working really hard to make changes and putting in a lot of programs and doing a lot of different things to try to prevent suicides. And I know that the leaders really care.
But we've got to do more. We've got to know that if we're asking our troops to go in harm's way over and over again and to be exposed to all kinds of trauma that people shouldn't have to see as human beings that we have got to expect them to need psychological care, the same way they need physical care. I felt like it needs to be incorporated and part of our treatment when they come back, that everybody is expected to have psychological care along with their physical care.
CHO: Well Kim, I think it's important to note that you personally work with families that have lost loved ones and you have something coming up this weekend. Don't you?
RUOCCO: This weekend, we have about 100 survivors of suicide, military suicide at our event. And then in October, we get about 500 survivors of suicide and a good grief camp for children, all who have lost someone in the military to suicide.
So we band together to support one another and also to revive some hints about what happened and maybe what some of the crack star and try to help the military fill those cracks.
CHO: Well, Kim Ruocco, I think it always takes courage to talk about someone you lost and someone so dear to you. I really thank you so much for coming on tonight.
RUOCCO: Well, thank you so much for having us and bringing light to this very important problem this weekend.
CHO: Thank you for sharing your story.
You know, this topic raises so many tough questions. Should the military be held accountable in some of these suicides? And if so, how? And what about the attitude that suicide is selfish? You know what? It's pretty common and it could be a part of a bid problem. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHO: Welcome back. Its 11 minutes after 10:00 on the east coast. We're focusing this weekend on our veterans this memorial day, their tremendous sacrifice and the hidden injuries so many of them battle after they return home. Recent comments by the commanding general of Ft. Bliss, Texas, calling suicide a quote, "selfish act" have really registered (ph). They certainly got our attention.
So, I'm joined by Dr. Terry Lyles. He is a psychologist who counsels members of the military before and after they seek combat.
Terry, welcome.
And, here at Atlanta right next to me is Attorney, Randy Kravis. He began his legal career in the Navy Jag core.
Randy, to you first. I have to ask you, a lot of people in our newsroom were asking, you know, at what point should the military be held responsible for some of these suicides? Is there a legal basis for this?
RANDY KRAVIS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE APPELLATE ATTORNEY: Sure. It's a good question. I think, there's a two-part answer. I think there's a legal aspect and moral aspect. Legally, I think it would be very, very difficult for a family of a service member who commits suicide to actually sue the military.
And the reason is, is there's this thing called the Farris doctrine based on the case called Farris, the United States canal in the 1950s. And it basically says when a service member is injured as part of his service, he cannot sue the military. The military has immunity.
Well, last year, a case came out where the family of a service member who committed suicide tried to sue the military. Of course, the court said no way.
CHO: But you say they have a moral obligation.
KRAVIS: Well, that's the other side of it. And that's a trickier question.
As a former J.A.G. officer, I can tell you that when you join the military, you know that there's the possibility there are going to be certain stressors, certain dangers that you're going to face that most people in the civilian world aren't going to face.
So, as sad as it is for me to say, I think -- to the extent a suicide is the result of the normal stressors of military life or even the horrors of battle -- or the battlefield. I don't know if we can hold the military accountable for that.
CHO: All right. Terry, I want to ask you this. Because, I just wonder, a lot of people have been asking the question, is the military doing enough to help these people, veterans returning from war who might have PTSD, who are depressed, they turn to alcohol and maybe turn to a gun? TERRY LYLES, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think we all need to do more and I agree, you know, with the comment that's been made thus far. However, I think the military needs to be doing more. I think, we, as civilians need to do more. I mean, I work in the private sector as well as cross over into the military sector. And I've taken upon myself with colleagues of mine to say we need to step up and do more because I call this the dark secret. No one wants to talk about it.
CHO: I mean, Terry, do more, but what?
LYLES: Well, we have to diagnose and treat quicker and more accurately. And we're not doing that. And what has to change is what we're doing here tonight. We have to keep talking about this issue over and over again, because the stigma, until some of that goes away psychologically in our culture as far as the military culture of, it is not good to admit that you have PTSD. The problem is not going to go away, so we hit brick walls.
CHO: Right. But you know, you look at these comments from this general saying suicide is a selfish act. And I have to be honest with you. I was having a conversation with friends and families about another case involving Mary Kennedy, woman, a mother of four who committed suicide. And one person said to me, you know, I think it's a really selfish act. Here she was, she's the mother of four. She is leaving her four children behind. You know, isn't that part of the problem, that this is still a common opinion?
LYLES: It is. But listen. Here's what you are talking in a difference is, you are talking about the action after the decision has already been made. The whole issue with post traumatic stress disorder is that there's emotional trauma and every trauma needs an exit wound. And if it's not exiting, it stays in our emotional status to the point that it affects our decisions that it then becomes suicide.
We must get in there and treat that and take care of it the way we know we can professionally to help them treat really the causation of this problem, not just the symptoms of this problem.
CHO: Well, I would imagine that part of the problem too is that, you know, you can see physical wounds but you can't see the mental wounds and they can be hard to identify.
Randy, I have to ask you. We were talking about this before we went on the air tonight. But, I think part of the problem too, and don't you agree, is that not enough is being done to help assimilate these veterans back into society?
So they're coming home. This is a bad economy. They can't find a job. They're having trouble living with their wives and their children again. And they're getting really depressed. I mean, isn't that part of the problem? Is there are not enough programs in place to help them feel a part of society?
I absolutely agree with you. That is part of the problem. That goes back to the moral issue, the question of whether the military is morally responsible for the well-being of our service members. I think they are. To the extent that the military can do something to help these service members and they don't, and they are morally responsible when a suicide occurs.
KRAVIS: I, absolutely, agree with you. I think you are absolutely right. That is the part of the problem. And t goes back to the moral issue, the question of whether the military is morally responsible for the well-being of our service members.
I think they are to the extent that the military can do something to help these service members and they don't. And they are merely responsible on a suicide.
CHO: Well, when you're looking at suicides going up, not down, this is a real problem that the military needs to address.
Randy Kravis, I thank you very much for joining us, along with Dr. Terry Lyles.
We also want to bring you something else. We want to make sure that you're connected to CNN beyond the television set, if you're out enjoying this holiday weekend. You can go to CNN.com/TV on your mobile phone.
But, up next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHO: Wanted, unemployment busting.
ROMNEY: The time has come for a president, a leader who will lead.
CHO: Deficit drop kicking.
OBAMA: We will finish what we started.
CHO: Seeker of truth and justice, must look good in spandex or a tie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHO: "The Avengers" fighting to keep its top stop at the box office this weekend. In fact, the movie is now the fourth highest grossing film in U.S. history.
But guess what? There's a much larger damsel in distress, namely the economy. So can the president come to the rescue? The online site, jib job, certainly thought so. Watch.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)
CHO: But in an election year, could the economy be the president's kryptonite? Don Lemon has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Calling all super heroes. The U.S. economy is in trouble and this means I guess only the nerdy ones need apply.
Local comedian, speaking of nerds, political comedian Dean Obeidallah and Republican strategist Anna Navarro. Ana, I would not dare call a nerd but I call you a political analyst, right? A republican strategist.
ANA NAVARRO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Thank you very much.
LEMON: All right.
So here is what the real political analysts, not that you guys aren't. They are saying if you win the economy, then you win the White House.
So Dean, I'm going to start with you because you wrote about this on CNN.com. And you said not so long ago, you thought President Barack Obama would come to the rescue, but you're not sure right now. So be straight with me. Don't give me my kryptonite. Let's go.
DEAN OBEIDALLAH, POLITICAL COMEDIAN: I think that when Obama got elected, I thought he was a superhero. He's now a mere mortal. I think he knows that. I think we need a super hero, a cap of economy to help us out or deficit reduction dude or to get a hulk and put him in congress to say hulk, smash to congress. I think brings a lot of joy to a lot of Americans.
LEMON: We want to get to other subjects, Ana so, because I want to talk about Romney now.
So, wait a minute. Hang on. What kind of super hero or avenger do you think President Obama is, Dean?
OBEIDALLAH: I don't think he is a super hero.
LEMON: OK. Enough. Good.
OBEIDALLAH: That's the problem.
LEMON: All right. So Romney swooped in this week as captain jobs. So let's look at his super power.
ROMNEY: I can tell you over a period of four years, by virtue of the policies we put in place. We got the unemployment down to six percent, perhaps a little lower.
LEMON: OK. So, a lot of people say Romney's cape is all hype, that there is really no muscle behind it. It is all talk, Ana.
NAVARRO: Well, you know, I actually agree with Dean. I think part of Obama's problems is the expectations he created. He came in as a historical inspirational figure --
LEMON: So, Ana, I'm going to do the same thing I did with Dean. So, I told Dean we are not talking about Romney. We are talking about Obama. I'm not talking Obama. Let's talk about Romney.
NAVARRO: I don't think Romney is a super hero. I think Romney is a businessman. He's a mere mortal who is trying to give it straight and getting some business proposals. I think Mitt Romney is not creating the expectations that Barack Obama created four years ago. He is, you know he is offering proposals. He is offering his business experience. That's what he's bringing to the table.
LEMON: So, do you think --
NAVARRO: And I do think -- I do think that one of the things that need to change in Washington is the bipartisanship. Part of the problem we're having with this economy is that you've got two very polarized sides who are not working well together and it's either their way or the highway and that's leading to not very much getting done.
LEMON: You make a very good point. Because as I, you know, when I go around the country and when I talk to people from broadcasting here on CNN or just every day, to hear it on television and to read it in the paper and hear it on the radio, you think that people are only very far left and very far right. Most people are in the middle and they really don't care that much about Democrat and Republican. They just want the economy to work and they want I think bipartisanship, as you said Ana. So, I think you make a very good point. There's a big middle ground out there that is not really being explored. I don't think their voices are being heard.
NAVARRO: Well, we are losing - we are losing moderate Republicans and we're losing moderate Democrats in congress. So the people that are getting elected are certainly more polarized and it's become a more difficult environment.
And I do think that Obama could have done a lot more to make the environment more conducive to bipartisanship. I have heard complaints from Democrats and Republicans on the hill, leadership saying they just don't get calls from the White House. They don't get calls from Obama. He doesn't have the tact, the touch that let's say a Ronald Reagan had, who was having drinks with tip O'Neill every, you know, every week.
LEMON: It is said that the White House is sort of out of reach, as you said. But then also, there was a criticism from the Bush administration when it came to the press. There is always something about communication that the Bush administration didn't communicate that much with the press and did their own thing.
(END VIDEOTAPE0)
CHO: All right. So, we have seen President Obama given the super hero treatment. Next, his arch enemy, candidate Mitt Romney gets his from the mouths of babes. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you were a super hero, who would you be and why?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHO: That's a 9-year-old asking the question. The possibilities, of course, are endless. Just look at your screen there.
So, which super hero will Romney pick? His answer is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHO: All right, just a moment ago we saw President Obama get the super hero treatment. Now it's his arch enemy's turn, candidate Mitt Romney.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm in fourth grade and I thought it would be fun to ask a question that they weren't expecting.
TEXT: If you could be any superhero in the world, who would you be and why?
CROWD: One, two, three, four, who are you going to vote for? Romney, that's who!
ROMNEY: What's your name?
ARI: Ari.
ROMNEY: Nice to meet you Ari.
ARI: Can I ask you a question?
ROMNEY: Yes.
ARI: If you or a superhero, who would you be and why?
ROMNEY: If I were a superhero, who would I be and why? Let's see. Well, I kind of grew up with superman. So I would have to be superman. I think it's a leap tall building in a single bound. As faster than a locomotive. Good to see you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHO: Most of the candidates, Ari asked by the way, did say superman.
Now, keeping up with our superhero theme, we asked our guests to switch their super powers. A democrat had to give advice to Mitt Romney and a Republican had to advise the president. And as our Don Lemon found out, the answers you get are passionate, to say the least. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All right. So I'm going to ask you, Ana, to switch sides here and say you were advising President Obama. And I want honestly think about this. What is his next move? What would you tell him to do to turn this thing around?
NAVARRO: If I were advising President Obama in this campaign, I would tell him I think what his advisers are already telling him, which is we've got to talk about anything but the last three years. We've got to go not forward as a campaign slogan, but rewind and restart. Give me a second chance at this. It hasn't gotten better, but it hasn't gotten worse, and I deserve a second chance and I think he also needs to hit on the -- which is exactly what he's doing, on the likability issue, because if Obama has to go On the Record, there's just metrics he set for himself on cutting the deficit, an unemployment rate that he hasn't met. So, if we judge him on his own measurement stick, he failed. He has got to be judged on something else if he wants to win.
LEMON: That's good advice. And you don't want to give secrets away from the other side. But that was -- thank you for doing that.
So Dean, I will ask you, not that you are a political analyst on the left, but you tend to lean left, right?
OBEIDALLAH: I'm a political comedian. I think I'm superior to political analysts. There is no need to get in to that.
LEMON: Yes. You're a legend in your own mind.
OBEIDALLAH: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: So, if you - if you were advising Romney, what would you tell him?
OBEIDALLAH: Drop out of the race, right now. Drop out, get out, go back to Massachusetts, live a good life. But, if he wants to win this election, I think be honest with the American people, stop being the greatest panderer I ever seen in my life. Don't go to the south because I'm going to eat bricks. I know we talked about cars.
Just this week, Mitt Romney said if he is elected, unemployment will be down to six percent. Wow. How is he going to that? I mean, we love to hear that. Give specifics and where it has worked before. You know what, American people, Democrat or Republicans, independents, want the economy to get working. So, show us where it's work that we can believe it. If not, when he was governor, he was 47th in job creation with this governor.
So, I mean. There is a little credibility issue problem there when he sing, I'm going to create jobs. You didn't do it when you are governor, how you better now?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHO: Quick check of the headlines now.
Still no firm confirmation of what happened, but it's a horrific scene of an apparent massacre in Syria. Eighty five people killed. Cozens of young children under 10. Witnesses say Syrian forces shelled their village, then, killed entire families.
Second degree murder charges and new questions in the case of Etan Patz. That's the 6-year-old boy who disappeared 33 years ago this week in New York city. A man named Pedro Hernandez has been charged with murder and police say he has confessed. But investigators acknowledge there is no physical evidence linking Hernandez to the crime and they have no clear motive.
And scandals at the Vatican after secrets were leaked to the media. Pope Benedict's butler has been charged with leaking documents, now the subject of a best-selling book.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHO: And fired for being too hot?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was working in a show room for women's lingerie where they sold thongs.
CHO: Hear from the woman being called a distraction, live.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHO: Busted for being too buxom. Sorry, lady, you're just too hot to work here.
Well, that's what 29-year-old Lauren Odes says happened to her. She claims that her former bosses in New York fired her, telling her she was just too hot for the office. Odes hired Gloria Allred and both of them join me live now from opposite coasts, Gloria from L.A., Lauren from New York.
Welcome to both of you. This is going to be a very interesting discussion.
Lauren, first to you. You were hired at the office of a lingerie wholesaler. And before you were hired, you actually asked about the dress code, right? Why did you do that and what were you told?
LAUREN ODES, CLAIMS FIRED FOR BEING TOO HOT: That's correct. And when I start a new position in any company, I always want to know what the policies are and dress code especially.
CHO: So what were you told?
ODES: I was told basically look around and see what other people were wearing in the office.
CHO: All right. So you claim that your bosses asked you to tape down your breasts, saying are too distracting. They say you were even told to put on a robe to cover yourself. I mean, what exactly happened?
ODES: That's all correct information. It was a series of events, which ultimately led to me being covered up in a bright red bathrobe. I was given the choice of going out to buy a new outfit or putting on the bath robe when working for the day.
CHO: And what did you think at the time?
ODES: It was preposterous to me, and I was humiliating because I had people asking me what am I doing? Why am I wearing this? I just - I didn't understand why they were targeting me.
CHO: And at what point where you fired and how were you told you would be terminated?
ODES: Before, I put on the bathrobe first, and then I said, you know, let me go outside and buy a new outfit instead of wearing the bathrobe. So, I went out during me trying to go buy a new outfit, I got a phone call saying I was terminated.
So, I went back there to get answering, so I recorded them saying, you know, you are too hot for this office, you are too fresh looking, you are distracting like for the men. So I have all that on recording from my phone and pictures, obviously.
CHO: Gloria, I want to talk to you. We're looking at some outfits that she did wear at the office during your short tenure there. You were there for how many days total? Was it five days?
ODES: A week.
CHO: A week. You were there for a week.
CHO: We should make clear that CNN has contacted the company, Native Intimacy. They told us no comment.
But Gloria, I have to ask you, obviously, you have been in touched with them, right? What are they telling you?
GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: Well, actually, we have not been in touch with them.
CHO: You haven't?
ALLRED: Because we did file a gender and religious discrimination charge on behalf of Lauren, with the United States equal employment opportunity commission. And they will then need to respond to the EEOC, because we've asked the EEOC to open an investigation.
But we will be providing the recording that Lauren made, which corroborates her claims to the EEOC. And then the company will have an opportunity to respond.
CHO: You have covered a lot of cases in your time, Gloria. Ever seen anything like this?
ALLRED: Well, actually I have. And I think it is wrong and it is really important, because a woman should not be terminated from a job because an employer may think her breasts are too large, that she is too attractive or that men might be concerned that they couldn't resist her.
And Lauren alleges that she was told that it was a safety issue, because of the way that she looked that men might not be able to resist her. That's ridiculous. And it is also ridiculous that she alleges she was told that she needed to tape down her breasts to make them look smaller. Women don't need to do that in order to keep a job and no one should suggest it.
CHO: Gloria, I may ask you this a little bit later on we'll have a longer discussion about this, but I wonder I mean, you know, do you think that this would ever happen to a man? Is there a double standard here?
ALLRED: Well, I really don't think that it's likely that it would happen to a man that he would be told that he is perhaps too attractive for the job, that women wouldn't be able to resist him. Maybe it would happen here and there.
But unfortunately I get a lot of complaints from women that that is what is happening. That they're even not getting a job because they are considered too hot in a sense, or that somehow they are being demoted or not getting a promotion on account of it and sometimes being fired on account of it. If a man has a problem with the way a woman looks, it's the man's problem and a woman should not be punished as a result of the way she looks.
ODES: Right.
CHO: Lauren Odes. Gloria Allred. I thank you both for joining us.
ODES: Thank you very much.
CHO: You know, I talked about that alleged double standard. We are going to ask a man the same question, next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHO: Attorney Gloria Allred is back with us and joining us from New York is political comedian, Dean Obeidallah.
Thanks to both of you for joining us again.
Gloria, we just spoke with your client who says she was fired for being too hot. So, my question for Dean is, and we were talking about this before the break, is there a double standard here, Dean? I mean, would this have ever happened to a man?
OBEIDALLAH: I actually was fired three times for being too attractive, Alina. I have to be honest with you. I will probably never be back on CNN after tonight.
Do I think this is a double standard? Absolutely. I used to be a lawyer. I worked on a big law firm. The women there felt a lot of pressure to be too flashy to tone down what they wear because they get taken less seriously if they're too pretty in a law firm and in a corporate environment.
And men never had their problems at that. Good-looking men tend to move up the ladder much quicker. People are gravitated them. So, I think it is unfair. There is a double standard and it is truly unfortunate. You should be judged on the merits of your work, not on how attractive you are. But attractive people, men and women, do make more money. Studies have shown that.
CHO: Well, that is true. The beautiful people, the taller people and certainly men, Dean, make more money than women.
OBEIDALLAH: I apologize.
CHO: Gloria, I mean I know you are fighting for your client, Lauren Odes, and that you believe very strongly in her story. But isn't there something to be said for decorum? And for -- aren't there unspoken rules that you should dress appropriately in your job? And isn't it possible that she wasn't dressed appropriately for her job?
ALLRED: Well, I do think it is fair for employers to have a reasonable dress code. But Lauren contends that she was told that, in fact, there wasn't a dress code, just look around, see what others are wearing and dress accordingly. Some people were wearing athletic attire, she alleges. And some were wearing more business attire. We showed what she wore. It was perfectly appropriate for her job, which was doing data entry and coordinating the shipment of samples. She was sitting off in the corner not really having much interaction in the office with anyone else.
So, I do think she was dressed appropriately for that job. Now, if the orthodox Jewish male leadership of the company or ownership if they were not comfortable with that because they think that a woman should cover up and that is because of their religious values, well, they have a right to their beliefs but they don't have a right to impose their beliefs and practices on those employees. It wasn't a synagogue, it was a workplace.
And by the way, she is a Jewish woman and she didn't believe in having to cover up in a way that may believe they think women should.
CHO: All right Dean, I'm just curious to know what your take is on all of these having heard the case.
OBEIDALLAH: I think men are weak, to be honest with you. We're weak creatures. We are easily distracted by attractive women. I'm not kidding. The one law firm that I worked at, they actually hired secretaries who are middle age and less attractive. They told us that have less destruction for the men working there. And it is really unfortunate to think that a women would not be hired simply because she is attractive which what kind of world do we live in? CHO: What would you have done if you had an employee who dressed like that?
OBEIDALLAH: I don't think -- I'm not in a position to hire anybody. I'm a comedian at this point. But I met her. I don't think there's anything inappropriate about what she was wearing. If there is a dress code, it should be laid out at the outset when you have to start your employment relations. And the young lady did ask what can I wear, what shall I wear. She adhered to what they wanted and then they changed the rules midway. That's unfair to her. So I think, Gloria, she knows better. I think it is a great case.
CHO: All right. Well, there you have it.
ALLRED: Thanks, Dean.
CHO: It's a love fest. All right, Dean and Gloria --
ALLRED: And if it's a man's problem, maybe put the blinders on the man so he doesn't look sideways at the woman. Don't punish the women.
CHO: All right. Gloria Allred. Dean Obeidallah. I thank you so much for your comments on this. Thanks so much.
All right. Are you ready for a new sport in the Olympics? It's like gymnastics but instead of parallel bars, there's just one bar. It's actually really more of a pole, you know.
So can you imagine this as an Olympic sport? They're trying.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAKE WOOD, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: In the military, everyone has taught how to lead, they thought how to follow, and to solve problems. We really pride ourselves on being ready and willing to go anywhere.
I served in the Marine Corps, deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan.
When I first saw the earthquake that hit Haiti, a lot of the images, it felt like I had seen them before driving through the streets of Fallujah or Afghanistan, I realized that I can actually helped out. So, I went on Facebook and said I'm going to Haiti, who's in? Seventy two hours after that, we were on our way to Port-Au- Prince.
We got to work setting up a triage clinic. We realized veterans are really useful in these types of situations.
I'm Jake Wood and I want to help veterans transition into civilian life and help others in need.
Team started as a disaster relief organization and then, we realized we could help the veteran community, as well. We bring these veterans together to be part of a team once again. They are almost recharged.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you get out, you have that feeling of, what are you really doing that's important to the world? This has provided a great opportunity to help people in need.
Wood: Most of the work we do internationally is emergency medical triage clinics. We've got to Chile, Sudan, Pakistan.
Here at home, we've been to Tuscaloosa, Joplin, doing debris clearing operations, search and rescue. We have 1400 volunteers and about 80 percent of them are military veterans. Helping other people is part of the healing process.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't thank you all enough.
WOOD: There's no limit to what veterans can do. We have the ability to help and want to everybody is. I think it is a win-win situation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHO: All right. We want to talk about something else now, women with toned bodies dancing on polls. Maybe for strippers, but it could be an Olympic sport later. We are talking about pole dancing. All right. We'll get to that in just a minute.
But first, let's talk about Greg Allman's latest and greatest marriage. He is engaged for the seventh time. That's right. The rocker is going to marry a 24-year-old and he's 64. Did you do the math? There's a 40 year difference. And he told our Piers Morgan earlier this week, while the seventh time is a charm.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST, PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT: There she is. Hello. You've gone very well. How does she feel about becoming wife number seven?
GREG ALLMAN, MUSICIAN: She's now what she has become. She is becoming wife number one. This time, I'm really in love.
MORGAN: why, you never been before?
ALLMAN: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHO: All right. This time he is really in love. Forget about the other times.
Dean Obeidallah is back with me. We are also bringing in pop culture commentator, Conor Knighton.
Good evening to both of you.
All right. I hate to be, Conrad. I hate to be one of his ex- wives. What do you make of this? Has he finally found love?
CONOR KNIGHTON, POP CULTURE COMMNENTATOR: Well, and you know, he said actually that famously, he has a history with drug addiction and he's clean and sober now. And so, in a way he's explaining some those past romances in saying well, I'm sober now. Now, I'm finally clear headed.
But, you know what, they are both adults. She's only recently one, but whatever makes them happy, good for him.
CHO: So, you are cutting him a break. What about Dean? Dean, what do you -- ?
OBEIDALLAH: If I can stand up and give him a standing ovation. Are you kidding me? He's 64 marrying a 24-year-old. There are 64- year-old guys at home dying for this moment. 54-year-old guys as well.
Look, she's happy. She's not a hostage. She didn't buy her on e-bay. It's actually a woman who wants to marry him. That's what you get when you are a rock star. When you are an old comedian, when I'm 64, I don't get that. I don't know what get. But when you're a rock star, you get that even at 64.
CHO: the reverse is never chewing. You never had seen an older woman marrying a younger man, like that or maybe rarely. You have seen it rarely, rarely.
All right. We want to talk about the pole dancing, because -- get a load of this. The international pole sports federation, yes, there is one, wants pole dancing to be included in the 2016 Olympic games. All right, Dean?
OBEIDALLAH: I completely support these young ladies.
CHO: Of course you do.
OBEIDALLAH: Why should you deprive these young ladies who are lean and worked out a lot and to go in the Olympics and get a gold medal? They should add a champagne room to this Olympics for, you can meet them.
CHO: Connor, I'm thinking you would watch this, Conor?
KNIGHTON: Not that I've ever seen it before, but theoretically I might. I believe they prefer the term "vertical gymnasts" which is actually there is a whole association, Web site. And in the scheme of Olympic sports, I mean, there's ice dancing, there is synchronized swimming, there is curling. There's a lot of skill involved.
CHO: Yes.
KNIGHTON: But, the difference is, there is not club in valley where people watch curlers take-off their clothes. And unfortunately there is now.
CHO: All right. Connor, Dean, we thank you very much.
How American are you? One way to find out is take this U.S. citizenship test, or better, take Conan O'Brien's. Here's one question. Which pie is the most American pie and which is the least American pie. We'll have the answers according to Conan, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is the most American pie?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Apple pie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is the least American pie?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Communism pie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHO: All right. There you have it. Conan's answer.
So we want to talk about this, bad writing, mommy porn and inappropriate read? Call it whatever you like. I'm still reading it. It's EL James' "50 shades of gray" trilogy and it's become an instant phenomena. Ten million copies of the books in the U.S. in just the past six weeks. Dean, Conor, a huge hit among women. I'm reading the first one right now. I can't put it down. Would you read this or have you read it?
OBEIDALLAH: I'm not reading it. There is no picture. I'm sorry.
KNIGHTON: I'm afraid I might shock to read it at some point just to figure out what people are talking about.
(LAUGHTER)
CHO: All right, Dean?
OBEIDALLAH: For me, I mean, I don't think men will read it because women, you have a thing you don't, it's called imagination. So you can picture things happening in the book. If there is no pictures, we don't get it. We're just visual creatures. I'm not even kidding. That's what we are. That's why it doesn't appeal to men as much.
CHO: All right. There you have it, the final word. Thanks so much.
I'm Alina Cho. See you back here tomorrow night at 5:00 p.m. Eastern. See you then.
