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Crisis in Syria Continues; Fires Rage in Colorado

Aired July 02, 2012 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: It's the top of the hour. I'm Ashleigh Banfield live in New York in for Brooke Baldwin today. And we have got some new video that's just in to us at CNN. Brace yourself. This is women and children escaping their homes in southern Syria. The wall they're going over, look closely. Women children scaling over that wall that is riddled with glass and nails. More than 14,000 people have now died since the uprising in Syria began and many, many of them have been children.

Many have been women. The next video that we have for you is absolutely chilling. We think it's important that you see it. It really underscores what's going on there. Brace yourself if you have kids in the room. Maybe give them a moment to get out and then look what has transpired just over the last couple of days in Syria.

What you're seeing is the live videography of complete chaos. A car bomb going off at a funeral procession near the capital of Damascus. What you're looking at resulted in 85 people at that funeral dying, absolutely remarkable.

There was video though that came into CNN that really stopped us all in our tracks today. We do really want to warn you about this. It's so graphic, details, a little girl. And I just want you to watch. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MOHAMMED JAMJOOM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The pictures are painful to watch. Surrounded by corpses, one distraught man holds up the limp bloody body of a dead young girl. "This is a new massacre by Assad," he shouts. "This is a new massacre by all the countries that have conspired against our people."

Also in the video, more bodies wrapped up in shrouds lined up against the walls, evidence, activists say, of yet another horrific slaughter that's taken place in Syria. This time, it happened in Duma, a suburb of Damascus. Syrian expatriates told CNN that pro-regime attacks escalated Thursday claiming entire families have been executed.

We have been unable to independently confirm what exactly happened but the attacks left more than 50 people dead in Duma. One amateur video purports to also show a helicopter firing on the area. Meanwhile, the state-run Syrian Arab News Agency said dozens of terrorist elements were killed in clashes in Duma as security forces continued to track down and arrest them. It said the forces also discovered prisons where kidnapped people were tortured and killed. Clashes between the regime and the opposition have moved closer to the capital. And Thursday, two blasts rocked Damascus, one in the heart of city outside the justice ministry. Reports of even more explosions in and around Damascus on Friday, raising questions not just about who is responsible, but also whether (AUDIO GAP) on security is getting more tenuous.

And then there's this, video from Thursday purporting to show demonstrators getting very close to the presidential palace in central Damascus. "No presidency forever," chants the crowd," as they go onto praise the rebels. One woman spray-paints a message to the Syrian president. "The Free Syrian Army are coming."

Mohammed Jamjoom, CNN, Abu Dhabi.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: While it may look like there is no hope in that country, there is this. There's an international plan now for Syria and guess what, it's got the backing of Russia and China and that's a big deal. It has to do with what to do about the Assad government.

And the agreement is that he's got to go, that he can't be part of any kind of transitional government, but that opposition members who work for him can be. That's got our secretary of state a bit concerned. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton did an exclusive interview with Jill Dougherty, who is standing by live now, our foreign affairs correspondent.

Here is what concerns me, is that when the secretary says I hate to say this, but this might not work, what chance does this have of working?

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: When you hear something like that from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, it gives you pause, because after all, she is the person who was over there negotiating and trying to get the Russians on board.

But what she is saying, and this is the key issue, is what happens to Assad? And actually in that document it really doesn't say specifically what happens to him. Members of the regime, members of the government as it is right now could be members of this transitional governing body.

But it doesn't specifically say he could not. That's where the opposition say wait, no way can he ever be part of this transitional government, even if there's going to be a transitional government. So, here is what -- when I talk with Secretary Clinton, here is what she said about whether Assad could stay.

Sorry. I guess we don't have that sound. But essentially, she said that there is no guarantee and that the opposition, once they get in there, will simply not let anybody with blood on their hands be part of this governing body. Therefore, Assad couldn't say. But can I tell that there's a lot of people especially in the opposition who just simply don't believe that.

BANFIELD: Let me switch gears to another front that Assad is facing. He's facing a lot of fronts. I don't know how the man sleeps at night on so many levels. He's dealing with the opposition in his country and the violence, and he's dealing now with the international community and now China and Russia on board and he's dealing with the Turks to the north.

They have now been scrambling jets because there seems to be almost a cat and mouse game going on at border. Explain to me what's going on between these two countries that have not been that hostile in their history.

DOUGHERTY: In the past, that's right, they weren't. But Turkey has turned around. They very much believe that Assad has to step down. It's gotten very, very tense because they have members of the opposition taking refuge in Turkey.

They also have other people, refugees, coming out. And so it's created a lot of tension. And if you remember just at the end of June, you had that Turkish plane that came close to the border and the Syrians say it went over the border. They shot it down.

So, after that, Turkey said we're going to take whatever action is necessary to protect us. And since then, Syria has been moving helicopters up to the border, not going over it, but up to the border. And then the Turks, on Saturday, they rustled three fighter jets to go to that region. They didn't cross the border, and there was no fire but they were definitely there.

There's another indication and another report that again today that happened. There's a lot of testing, tempting and it's a very dangerous situation.

BANFIELD: Jill Dougherty reporting live for us in the State Department, thank you for that.

Back here at home, firefighters are definitely gaining ground on those insane wildfires in Colorado. But what those fires left behind is heartbreaking. Take a look out the car window as people return home to what was home at one point. They're going to take us with you in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

BANFIELD: One community hard-hit by the storm is Arlington, Virginia.

CNN's Brian Todd talked to a power company field supervisor about some of the challenges that they're facing just trying to get the power back on.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ashleigh, this neighborhood in Arlington, Virginia, kind of emblematic of many in this area.

No one on the street has power now and you're seeing why right now. A Tree crew just cleared a tree from this power line but it's still obviously down and compromised. Look at where the tree it. It hit the power line and it hit that Subaru there, crushing it.

We're told that 12 poles are down in this neighborhood, 12 power poles, and you can see there was kind of a domino effect. The tree takes this line, disables that pole, it knocks out this pole.

And now we're going to pick this up with Josh Little. He's a supervisor for Dominion Virginia Power. He's supervising four crews.

Josh, walk with me down here and talk to us about the domino effect. These two go out and then we will show people down here how these couple of poles went out. So, what happened down here?

JOSH LITTLE, DOMINION VIRGINIA POWER: Right.

What happened down here, the size of the tree and the force of that fallen, when it snapped the lines up here, it actually snapped these poles at such a force that it broke these poles at the bottom. It broke this one here right here, and it broke the one down the hill at the bottom and then it actually destroyed another pole to your left. And it actually did some damage to another pole to the right.

TODD: That's kind of commonplace, that domino effect when a storm is this bad, right?

LITTLE: Yes, yes. You get the large trees that are healthy trees that get blown over. The impact of those trees coming down with the size of them, it just tears everything down. It just goes in a domino effect, like you said.

TODD: About how long would it take you to get a neighborhood that's been this hard hit back up with power?

LITTLE: In this subdivision, it will take me a minimum of two days to get everything back on in here because everything is rear property and I have to do it without the modern machinery.

TODD: And your guys are exhausted, right? They have been working for two-and-a-half days straight?

LITTLE: They have been working here for two-and-a-half straight days, yes. They are getting exhausted. But they are very determined to get these people back in power.

TODD: Josh, good luck to you. Thanks for joining us. We appreciate it.

LITTLE: Thank you.

TODD: Ashleigh, one other things that these crews are up against. They cannot work in the dead of night. They can't work 24 hours. When it gets dark, it gets too dangerous for them to climb up poles to work on transformers and to work on lines.

They can do some work on residences, but that's about it at night. They have got to wait for daybreak to come. Hundreds of thousands of people still without power in the D.C.-Maryland-Virginia area. We're told the last people to get power up may not get it until Friday night -- Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: All right, Brian Todd, thanks very much. That's a tough assignment having to work in that heat for Brian as well.

In Colorado, we have got a different natural disaster to tell you about. Families evacuated in the Waldo Canyon fire are looking at this when they come home. Can you believe? They raced out of that home and that's the last they saw of it until they were encountering this, just heartbreaking. The damage just goes up to hundreds and hundreds of houses.

On CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION" Colorado Governor John Hickenlooper described this kind of a site as he flew over Pike National Forest just outside of Colorado Springs. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JOHN HICKENLOOPER (D), COLORADO: It was like your worst nightmare of a movie set trying to show what the apocalypse or Armageddon would look like. At first from a distance, we flew a helicopter in and this was as the fire was going on, this firestorm going on. And I thought it was trees burning. As we got closer, it was homes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That's just awful. But there's a silver lining, if you can even imagine. Evacuation orders have been lifted for all but 3,000 people. It was over 30,000 people who had to flee their homes originally. So now 3,000 are now unable to go home.

The weather is improving out there. That's helping the firefighters get the upper hand in battling these blazes. That really significant fire, the Waldo Canyon one, is now just half-contained, about 55 percent contained. Just a brutal, brutal season, the worst ever for them in Colorado.

A new legal turn in Mississippi's fight over abortion -- why the only abortion clinic in the state can stay open, at least for now. But their days may be numbered. We have got the story, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Mississippi's only abortion clinic can stay open and oil and gas prices are on the rise. It's time to play "Reporter Roulette."

We begin with the sole abortion provider in the state of Mississippi getting a reprieve. A bit temporary, though. A judge has issued an order allowing the clinic to stay open despite the fact that the clinic could not meet the requirements of a brand-new law.

CNN's George Howell is on this story.

Explain to me, if you can, George, why the requirements, what's the new law and why couldn't the center actually comply with it?

GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ashleigh, good afternoon.

The new law has two parts to it. First of all, it requires that any physician here in the state of Mississippi be a board certified OB/GYN to perform abortions here in the state. Secondarily, it requires these physicians to have privileges or permissions with local hospitals to permit patients, if necessary.

The sponsor of this law says it's a safety issue, plain and simple. But when you talk to the director of this clinic, and, Ashleigh, as you spoke to her just an hour ago, she says she was unable to get the permissions with other hospitals because she believes they are under a great deal of pressure not to help her out with this.

I spoke to both sides on the issue their reaction to the impact of this law. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWELL: What would it mean for Mississippians if this clinic were to close?

DIANE DERZIS, JACKSON WOMEN'S HEALTH ORGANIZATION: Absolute tragedy. No one wants to talk about abortion and no one wants to think about abortion until you're there. There's three reasons you have an abortion, rape, incest and mine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The intent of the legislation was in my opinion's women's health. It just made sure that if anyone was receiving an abortion it would be a professional OB/GYN who is certified and then also could go -- follow that patient to a hospital if something went wrong. I'm disappointed that they will spend another two weeks without that type of requirement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOWELL: Ashleigh, the Republican governor here in this state, Phil Bryant, has said he's disappointed in the judge's decision. But again this clinic will remain open at least through July 11. That's when a federal judge has set hearing on whether this clinic will remain protected under a restraining order.

BANFIELD: All right, that story continues. Thank you, George Howell reporting for us live.

(STOCK MARKET UPDATE)

BANFIELD: This story is remarkable. It's about a man who is paralyzed from the neck down. He only has one wish: Let me die. He can only move his eyelids and he can communicate thus and wants to kill himself, but no one will allow him to die. And so now he is taking his case to court, but is it going to work? We will explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: I don't know if you have ever heard of this. It's called Locked-in syndrome. There's a man who is suffering from it who cannot move anything but his eyelids.

Effectively, he's trapped inside his own body because of the stroke he suffered. But because of this, he just wants one thing, one thing. He wants to die. He wants to kill himself. He's got the full support of his family, too, but he has to take this fight to court.

Nima Elbagir has this fascinating story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Seven years ago, Tony Nicklinson was a healthy 51-year-old man.

JANE NICKLINSON, WIFE: He's the life and soul of the party. He's a big bloke, ex-rugby player. He worked hard, but he played hard. He was full of life, great sense of humor, loved the sound of his own voice.

ELBAGIR: Then he suffered a stroke. Today, the man who loved life is fighting for the right to end it.

TONY NICKLINSON, SUFFERS FROM LOCKED-IN SYNDROME (through computer): My name is Tony Nicklinson and I have Locked-in syndrome. This means that most of my body is paralyzed, but my mind is as it was before the stroke.

All I can move is my head and the stroke took away my power of speech. Now I talk to people with a (INAUDIBLE) spelling board or a computer operated by my eye blinks. My day typically begins at 5:00 a.m. I need only four or five hours sleep because I lead a very sedentary life.

I watch television until 8:30 when first of the carers come. During this time, my wife checks me on 7:30, and between then and 8:00 she gives me my drugs and juice for breakfast. These drugs are only to make my life more comfortable, as I have refused to take any drugs that are designed to prolong my life since 2007.

Unfortunately, for me (AUDIO GAP) will be exactly the same and the next and the next, ad infinitum, until the day I die.

ELBAGIR (on camera): If you were given the right to make that decision, would you choose to do so?

T. NICKLINSON (through computer): Yes.

ELBAGIR (voice-over): But under British law, Tony doesn't have that right. He's physically incapable of committing suicide and it's illegal for anyone to help him.

At present, so-called voluntary active euthanasia, when assistance is required to end a life, constitutes murder, and the sentence is life imprisonment. Tony has taken his case to the high court in Britain saying he's not looking for a new law allowing euthanasia. He simply wants a remedy to the current legislation which he calls discriminatory.

T. NICKLINSON (through computer): Some people have in the past spoken to me in the loud, slow and deliberate terms normally for the deaf or daft. I am neither. All too often, well-meaning able-bodied people just assume that if a person is so severely disabled that he needs assistance to commit suicide, he must automatically be unable to deal with such a choice.

I say that where a person has the mental ability, he should have the choice of his own life or death. The only difference between you and me is my inability to take my own life without assistance.

ELBAGIR: Tony's condition hasn't changed for seven years and he and his wife say the longer the court takes to rule on his appeal, the longer his only hope for relief is postponed.

J. NICKLINSON: Well, I think -- the injustice of it all. You and I can go out and take our lives any time we want, whereas Tony, being the one that really needs that right, can't do this. And he's only asking for what everyone else has got, really, his right to take his own life. He wants that given back to him.

ELBAGIR: The high court is expected to issue its judgment in Tony's case after the end of July.

As difficult as things are for them, Jane says she and Tony have never had any doubts that assisted suicide is the right choice for them.

J. NICKLINSON: It's taken so long to get to this point. He's never, ever waivered and it's what he wants. If it's what he desperately, so if it's what we want, it's what we want.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, ANCHOR, "CNN NEWSROOM": Excellent story from Nima Elbagir.

I want to bring you back here to the United States. There's an economic storm that's coming, a prediction from CNN's Ali Velshi. He's going to come by and explain why and who can try to prevent this storm from happening.

First, though, here's a preview of CNN's "NEXT LIST."

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

AYAH BDEIR, FOUNDER, LITTLE BITS: My name is Ayah Bdeir. I'm an engineer and I'm the founder of Little Bits. These are little bits. Little Bits is a system of electronic modules that snap together with magnets to teach kids about electronics and science and technology.

One of my favorite things is seeing the first time people interact with Little Bits. They take their two pieces, they snap the two pieces together, a light comes on and then suddenly their face lights up.

Suddenly you feel like the whole world of imagination open up to them, and they're able to imagine what's possible.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: You can call it what you want, an economic storm or a looming recession. However you look at it, CNN's Ali Velshi says Congress needs to act and act quickly if the United States is going to avoid another Washington showdown over the economy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: I have been telling you about the economic storm that's making its way to our shores, from Europe where the blow back could hit America at hurricane strength, from Asia where growth engines like China and India are stalling in the wake of fewer exports to the West, and from Washington where scorched-earth, partisan politics could push America over a fiscal cliff if Congress doesn't act.

Legislation needs to be passed now to head off a series of tax increases and spending cuts that are mandated to take effect on January 1st because Congress couldn't come up with a proper deal to raise the nation's debt limit last year. So that's the ridiculous compromise they came up with.

If Congress doesn't act before the elections, it may be too late to fight off the economic storm. You heard it from Mohammed Al-Arian, a 30-percent chance of a recession, he says. So, frankly, after listening to me say this endlessly, even I'm starting to think I'm full of hot air.

So I'm going to give you three specific things that Congress can and must do now to address the coming economic storm. First, head off that so-called sequester, the $1 trillion of automatic, across-the- board spending cuts that are mandated by Congress.

The ridiculously named sequester legislation was passed as part of last August's debt ceiling extension which followed, as you recall, but would like to forget, intense partisan blackmail by both sides that nearly shut the government down and led to a downgrade of the United States credit rating.

A stupid name for a stupid thing that could hurl the U.S. headlong back into recession, so solve it, Congress.

Second, all right, we're going to look at another debt ceiling extension early next year, so what say we all get together ahead of time and act on it before the election, before Washington gets tempted to take America back to the brink a second time.

And, finally, third, negotiate another agreement on whether to extend the Bush era tax cuts and adjust the Alternative Minimum Tax to avoid slapping Americans with a higher tax bill next year.

These are three simple things that Congress can do now, three things Washington needs to do before the elections to avoid falling over that fiscal cliff in January. If politicians in Congress put off the work that needs to be done, let them be held accountable for the next recession.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

BANFIELD: CNN's Ali Velshi with always the great advice.

All right, this next story, one of the men who was convicted of killing a mother and her two daughters in that brutal Connecticut home invasion, apparently, he wanted to pull off a bizarre trick inside prison. It involved oysters and his own death. We'll explain in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: A killer on death row hoping to speed up the execution process and, get this, through a food allergy, suicide by oyster. I'm not kidding. It's what a murderer named Steven Hayes told the "Hartford Courant" newspaper about why he lied about committing 17 other murders. I know. It's very, very confusing, but let me try and break it down for you.

He's one of two men, you might remember, that were convicted in that 2007 home invasion that really shocked the nation. He and another man, Joshua Komisarjevsky, killed two daughters and the wife of Dr. William Pettit before setting that family's Connecticut home on fire.

Hayes told that newspaper that he was hoping to figure out a way to speed up his death and cut a deal for information on some fake murders, maybe try and get the police to swap info for food. What kind of food? Oysters. Why oysters? He's deathly allergic to oysters. I can't make this stuff up.

Defense attorney Joey Jackson is on the case with us. All right, so let me get this straight. He writes letters and sends them out of his jail cell, talking about 17 other murders that he committed hoping that the police, the jail would intercept them, turn them over to the police. The police would come to his cell and say let's talk.

JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Kind of bizarre.

BANFIELD: And let's barter. Do police barter with prisoners in cells, barter food for info?

JACKSON: Well, you know what? You'd be surprised. Here's what happens. Generally, we see bartering happening when it comes to making statement.

Initially, when a defendant, for example, is arrested you want them to be comfortable. You want them to be calm. You want them to give you information. So what do you do?

You say, can I give you something to drink? Are you hungry? Can I give you something to eat? And, so, in that context, believe it or not, you do.

Of course, he was hoping, based upon them attempting to solve various crimes that they would believe this to be true. And who knows? There will be an investigation. If it is true, we'll see what happens, but we don't think so.

BANFIELD: So, apparently, I don't know if it was harebrained or not. Maybe it was. He was thinking that he could get a request, a cornucopia, let's say -- soda, pepperoni pizza, and a dozen oysters with hot sauce.

JACKSON: Yeah, he forgot the lobster and the steak, apparently.

BANFIELD: Apparently, he's not allergic to lobster, but he is deathly allergic to oysters so this is how he -- this guy has tried to commit suicide several times.

JACKSON: Yes, he has.

BANFIELD: He's come close in his cell.

JACKSON: Yes, he has. Once during the trial, of course, too, and some before that even. And even he was saying he was hoping he would got shot at the time when he was apprehended by the police.

But, interestingly enough, in the event that he did have information and the district attorney or the local county attorney wanted to speak with him about that information, they would jump through some hoops, Ashleigh, in order to make him feel comfortable enough to give them all that he has.

BANFIELD: So, about those 17 murders that he was writing about and then told the "Hartford Courant" newspaper, I lied about it. Made it all up. Made it all up.

Apparently, the Connecticut state police have a response to this. They actually told CNN that they're probably going to suspend the investigations into these other murders once they confirm that he's, yes, lying again because he's been found to be lying so often.

JACKSON: Right.

BANFIELD: Look, the guy's on death row. Are they going to charge him with obstructing or, you know, meddling?

JACKSON: I would highly doubt it, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: False reporting? JACKSON: No, look, he's on death row and who knows if he will be executed in light of the change in Connecticut in terms of whether the death penalty is going to be administered or not.

BANFIELD: No, no, no. They say that's going forward. Anybody else who's in the hoosegow now ...

JACKSON: Is not going to get it. It'll be appealed. It'll be an appealable issue. His lawyers will jump up and shout and say, you're not doing it now. It shouldn't have been done then. But in any event ...

BANFIELD: He gets his automatic appeal and then he can get his wish if he wants to, just like Timothy McVeigh.

JACKSON: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: You get your automatic appeal. You can't fight that. There's already a guy in Connecticut who did that and sped his way right to the execution chamber.

JACKSON: Just amazing, though. Amazing.

BANFIELD: Oysters?

JACKSON: You know, people have varied taste, don't they?

BANFIELD: That is the way to end this segment.

JACKSON: It's a pleasure and a privilege.

BANFIELD: You're so smart. Thank you, Joey Jackson.

JACKSON: I'm not as smart as you, but I'm trying.

BANFIELD: I make it all up. I make it all up. Thank you, sir.

Chicago, have you been watching the crime scene stories? This deadly summer is getting worse. It is a deadly year. New York's murder rate is headed for a record low, so what is going on in Chicago? The two cities are going in opposite directions. We may have some answers for you in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: You probably heard about the murders that have been happening in Chicago. If you haven't, where have you been? At last count, there were 253 killings, just this year. It's July. We're on pace here to set a record in that city.

I want you to see the latest victim because this might really underscore what's going on. That little girl's name is Heaven, seven years old. Heaven Sutton was hit in the chest with a stray bullet while she was selling lemonade and candy at a stand that had been set up by her mom and she died last Wednesday.

This is her grief-stricken mother.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHAKE BANKS, MOTHER OF SEVEN-YEAR OLD SHOOTING VICTIM: I opened up this candy store a month ago -- I mean, two weeks ago for the kids to have candy on this block here. And we just sitting out here, normal. She's sitting right next to me. And I just heard some shooting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: John Avlon is writing about this, what's going on, the contagion in Chicago. He is a CNN contributor. He's a senior political columnist at "Newsweek" and "The Daily Beast."

So, the shooting of Heaven now has people really sitting up and looking at this story, as if they weren't already with the numbers be way they are, but is this going to make any difference?

JOHN AVLON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, when you put a human face, when these aren't numbers, these are names.

BANFIELD: God, it's not even human. It's a kid. It's a baby.

AVLON: It's a 7-year-old child. This beautiful girl named Heaven Sutton and the murders have ranged, just in June, from age 75 to 7. And this really does highlight a crisis that's going on in the city of Chicago.

And what's so stunning, Ashleigh, as you said, is that this is against the trends we have seen in recent America. Crime has been going down. Murders have been going down. New York City just celebrated their first six months, only 193 murders, on pace to have under 400.

BANFIELD: Let me go over those stats.

AVLON: It's an extraordinary thing.

BANFIELD: I want to do full disclosure. John Avlon and I go back a long way. We met while you were chief speechwriter for Rudy Giuliani when he was the mayor of New York City and let's look at some of the stats for New York, why don't we?

A city of eight million people, about 190 murders for the first six months of this year. Chicago, on the other hand, way smaller and the number of murders there already 253. If you do the math, that means Chicago's up by 38 percent and New York is down by 17 percent. It sort of defies logic.

AVLON: It does defy logic and it defies national trends. You know, to some extent, we have learned what works in policing, through things like quality of life of policing, broken windows theory, pro-active policing.

BANFIELD: First explain that whole broken window -- this was a Rudy thing. This was a Giuliani thing. A broken window means ... AVLON: Rudy Giuliani translated, so, basically, it forced police to start focusing on the small things. It's said that, look, when there's a broken window in a neighborhood and it's allowed to remain broken, it sends forth a subtle that lawlessness is permitted and it brings more lawlessness and more crime.

So that by focusing on quality-of-life crimes police send a larger signal about that this is a law-abiding place and civility will respected. And that plus pro-active policing has really transformed policing in the United States. New York City, for example, just by comparison, had 2,245 murders in 1990. This year ...

BANFIELD: Two thousand ...

AVLON: Two-thousand-two-hundred-and-forty-five murders.

BANFIELD: In one year.

AVLON: And this year, the city of New York is on pace to be under 400, which is why Chicago, moving in the opposite direction, is such a scandal and such a challenge for Mayor Rahm Emanuel.

This is really the first challenge of his mayoralty. He is taking it very seriously. But this is a crisis that goes in direct contradiction of the trends we've seen across America.

BANFIELD: Since you brought up Rahm Emanuel, the mayor, he actually spoke to the broken window theory. Again, if there's a broken window, maybe fix it because it could really have a domino effect. And it sounded like he was supporting the broken window theory. Let's listen.

AVLON: Sure.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR RAHM EMANUEL, CHICAGO: We have the police department take down a narcotic unit out of a street corner. We then have a surge of services. Graffiti gets eliminated. Lights get fixed. Empty lots get cleaned, mowed. Garbages get pulled from them.

Because you need the community to see, physically, not just the drug dealers and the gangbangers eliminated, but the area that has to feel and look different when the police then hold it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: All right, so the essence of this debate -- and I want to ask you what your thought is here -- throwing welfare at impoverished areas is the liberal version of how to get a hold of crime.

This is what you're saying is the opposite. It's not necessarily tossing a bunch of money at the problem. It's instead being more clever with policing.

AVLON: That's right. And, more importantly, we know it works. Think about ...

BANFIELD: It's a very conservative viewpoint.

AVLON: It's conservative in its genesis. It is a contrary -- it's not throwing money at a problem. It's a smarter deployment of police and it actually goes against a lot of what used to be called the root- cause theory of crime.

Consider the fact that across America during this great recession, we've seen crime actually go down. That's in direct contradiction to the root-cause theory of crime, which says ...

BANFIELD: When everybody's broke, they start stealing and then mayhem ensues.

AVLON: Exactly right. What we've learned is that's not true. It does not need to be true. That it's actually about sending subtle cultural signals. It's not just about criminals. It's about culture.

And that's why Chicago's upward trend isn't just heartbreaking for the 235 people who've lost their lives and their families, but it goes against the more heartening trends we've seen across the nation.

BANFIELD: So are you saying then that, you know, Rudy Giuliani and New York's policing ...

AVLON: And Mike Bloomberg and Commissioner Ray Kelly.

BANFIELD: Sure. They followed. Set the trend for the rest of the country and somehow Chicago opted out?

AVLON: No, if Chicago had been moving in line with recent trends until this spring. That's what's so startling. You know, the Chicago P.D. says it's largely gang activity. It's gang violence.

BANFIELD: Everybody has gangs. L.A. has gangs. New York has gangs.

AVLON: Exactly, but L.A.'s crime is continuing to drop, so it really raises the question mark. Why Chicago? Why now? Why this spring?

And it's not just because it's been unseasonably warm. This is a real, specific, gang-violence problem that's causing a crisis of confidence in the city of Chicago. These murders are spread out throughout the city, as well. It's not just in individual areas.

BANFIELD: You're hosting for Erin Burnett tonight.

AVLON: Yes, I am.

BANFIELD: Seven o'clock Eastern. You're going "OutFront." You're going to do this in-depth?

AVLON: We'll be talking about this further. Absolutely.

BANFIELD: And I will be on right after you for Anderson, so here's to tonight and the next 10 years together. John Avalon, thanks very much.

So he's the fresh face of the old guard. Take a good look. You're going to see a lot more of him, Enrique Pena Nieto. He's the projected winner of Mexico's presidential race.

So what does he think about the war on drugs? Because America thinks a lot about it. We're going to talk in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: The Supreme Court's decision on healthcare has a lot of Americans riled up, on both sides of the issue, and we have some brand new polling numbers to prove how people feel.

Check it out. Fifty percent of the people polled agree with the Supreme Court's decision to uphold what's now become known on both sides of the debate as ObamaCare. And 49 percent, however, disagree with what the Supreme Court decided to do. Those are the numbers, folks.

The projected president of Mexico has spoken today by telephone with President Obama and has just addressed the subject of relations with the United States at a news conference in Mexico City.

His name is Enrique Pena Nieto and he made no direct reference to the war on drugs. He cited infrastructure. He cited infrastructure. He cited trade and security as tops on his list with Washington, but no war on drugs.

Miguel Marquez now back with us, live from Mexico City. So is that an omen? Is there something to be read into by the fact there was no mention of it? Or any big surprise, really?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, no, when he talks about security, he means the war on drugs. It's a bigger issue for Mexicans than just the war on drugs here. I mean, there's a set of issues, social and otherwise that go along with that.

Some of these gangs, these drug gangs have remained in the drug business, but many of them have sort of branched out and gone into other fields, if you will, a lot of petty crime, car theft-slash- kidnappings where they will grab you, take you to an ATM and make you withdraw as much money as you can then release you some hours later.

Those are things that people are frustrated about and what he suggested all along, what he wants to do, he says, is create sort of a gendarme, a national police force, to, one, get the military off the streets. They are patrolling many of the streets in parts of the country.

He wants to get them off the streets so this is not a military fight, a sort of a counter-insurgency fight against the cartels and also reduce the violence across the country at the same time so that Mexicans can get on with their lives and the economy can grow and all the other things that need to happen here. Ashleigh?

BANFIELD: OK, so, obviously, we are having a bit of a problem with what we call the V-GAN.

Miguel, I'm not sure if you can hear me, but we cannot hear a word of what you're saying, so while we try to fix the connection. I can still hear it. I know. It's so annoying, this live television thing that we do.

MARQUEZ: Can you hear me?

BANFIELD: I'm hearing that the audience can hear you, but I cannot hear you, so I may ask a very stupid question afterward.

MARQUEZ: Oh, I see.

BANFIELD: Go ahead.

MARQUEZ: It was brilliant, whatever I said.

BANFIELD: I'm sure it was. Let me just do this quick follow-up and I apologize for not having heard a word of what you said, my friend. That's just the way it goes sometimes. It was total breakup on my end.

OK. All right. Since we got a delay, let me start with this. Hold on, one sec. Hold on, one sec. Let me get some of the specs on the new president for our audience. Enrique Pena Nieto is 45-years old. He's five years younger than President Obama.

He served five years as governor of Mexico State, which is the country's largest. He leads the Institutional Revolutionary Party, which, if you remember, was the PRI, the P-R-I, which ruled Mexico for 71 years.

But he's really sat on the sidelines since 2000. So he certainly looks like he has got the face for politics. But what essentially -- I'm sorry if you've already answered this, but what's the critical part of his agenda?

MARQUEZ: Well, two bits, the economy and security. And on the economy, you know, he takes over in December, is his inauguration. And it's very likely that he will have a workable majority, if not an outright majority in the legislature, which takes over in September and we're likely to see a lot of those big economic packages introduced then.

Ashleigh?

BANFIELD: OK, I can see that your lips stopped moving so you must have stopped talking. I couldn't hear a word of what you were saying, Miguel, but you did a good job down there. I know from our earlier hit. Thanks for being with us.

And thank you for being with us, everyone. I give up. I'm just sending it over to Wolf Blitzer. Wolf?